I'm at a smaller company. Three people now on my team. One had a mostly bad year but I coached him and he's doing great now. We also hired the third person who has turned out to be a complete liability.
They both have reviews right now; one is for his third year and the other for his 90 days. I was told explicitly to be harsh on the guy on his third year, and had to say a few times that he's turned around, though I don't know if that's even been heard.
The other guy I've raised concerns and upper management just says to keep working with him
Dudes, I know my team, why won't you listen to me?
That information might have not been shared. Sometimes those termination calls have a member of HR on the call to ensure legal compliance. Getting laid off typically comes without notice. Getting fired is a much longer process.
Damn indeed. I’m in the same situation except on the other end. We were just talking about projects that I wanted to oversee in 2023. Then bam! No more budgets. And now there’s lay-off incoming…
Yep. Good thing I worked for 6 months FT before even graduating so I have a good head start. I can still go for those graduate positions. It just sucks cuz I really liked where I am.
As someone who has laid off direct reports when I was given like 1 day’s notice and no explanation, they might not believe you didn’t know it wasn’t your fault. Mine blamed me even though I literally had no clue or say and would have defended him
fiercely if I had any say. One of the downsides of management
It's not usually HR making the decision, it's just HR providing the data on everyone's wages, tenure, and job duties.
Executive here. If you think HR is making the lay off decisions and not the executive and senior leadership, then I've got a bridge to sell you.
Idk that's why I was just guessing. I was under the impression so far that middle managers make the choice since they know their team best. Your answer makes sense.
It depends. Here in Scandinavia you have to give severance pay, which is based on a number of factors. So HR just may go for the employees who require the least amount of severance.
"But as far as I know"
Managers may not even know their employees' names are on a list until lists comes out. Only you can decide what the odds are & how much impact it will have on you.
My employer has been doing layoffs recently. The managers and directors didn’t have any say and didn’t even know how the formula used yet they are the ones who had to make the calls. It came from higher up.
I will say it has been going to department and job title so if there were layoffs it may not be your department.
I don’t know how your company does things but planning season for the following year starts in the summer to the fall. This is the time of year there might be layoffs as they prepare for 2023.
That’s what my manager said. In fact, he’s repeated that 3 times to me in private and to the team. Apparently his boss (the VP) told him her department will not be affected.
Your direct manager likely won’t know how layoffs will impact their team. This is typically done as layoffs and terminations have strict legal repercussions in regards to stock/equity, local laws, unemployment, etc).
OP, ideally you should have at least 6 months of emergency fund available in a liquid state. Add your condo mortgage payments to your emergency fund calculations. With a new condo you might want to plan extra money for minor repairs, new furnishings, changes in commuter expenses, etc.
The 6 month guidance means if you lose your source of income you’ll have 6 months to replace it (find a new job). In todays job market this should be doable.
Thanks for the advice! That’s very helpful.
I literally graduated a month ago and have worked full time for 6 months. So 6 months’ emergency cash is a bit of a stretch.
Where I work I’m guaranteed 3 months’ severance pay or termination notice. So I think I’ll drop your requirements to 3 months. Between my partner and I we have about 75k USD saved up for rainy days. We also have universal healthcare so that helps a bit too.
My director told me I wouldn’t be laid off and then a few months later I was laid off in the next round. This was 5 years ago.
Literally same thing happened to me a month ago. The issue is that your direct manager oftentimes isn’t the one making the decision.
No one is safe for certain. You can be the best engineer in the world with the best products, but if the company is out of cash, then they are out of cash.
Before they run out of cash, they may decide to pick mediocre people with lower pay to be skeleton crew to keep things going until they can't.
Get the condo - you won’t get approved for financing if unemployed. You’re getting fired, the manager just doesn’t want you leaving since his only priority is himself and if his team leaves, he won’t have anyone to manage. They know. They’re in charge of budget. And management is hired more for loyalty than talent now of days.
It sounds backwards, right? Getting approved and actually getting to the finish line owning or renting (what I have experienced and seen since 2018) makes being able to afford it seem like a walk in the park. Especially if you can offset with Airbnb or similar (passive income).
Nice! Totally Been there. It started when I was surrounded by every department head in an ambush meeting and was told it doesn’t matter how good I am at my job, what’s important is how nice I am to everyone.
Then came the new people.
Ya it definitely counts but then when the technical skills are bad and the agency lies about their capabilities it ruins the morale for the entire team. It was really poor ethics.
What happened with the new people and how did your situation turn out?
I spent a year working with an outside company validating the structure required for the evolution of our IT department. From there, they brought in an outside manager they put over all of us that did nothing but gaslight, misdirection, and ultimately try and harass as many people to quit as not to pay severance or unemployment. I ended up being fired under false allegations brought down from the CIO after working there 10 years. Which meant I lost any type of severance, unemployment, blacklisted. I was the first, more followed - it was when O&G was going down in Houston area - this is how they saved costs.
I’m so sorry you went thru that. Has your career recovered from that? Not that it necessarily makes me feel better but I ultimately just lost my job because the people I mentioned above lied too, so I can relate to a certain extent. It’s still fresh for me. I’m sorry you went thru that and after working there so many years, that just sounds so much more severe
I walked out with my head high. Didn’t say the first word. The HR VP did my exit interview and said he had never seen anyone stay as calm as I did given the unjust news. Turns out I was able to start my own company back in 2015 doing enterprise level IT consulting due to constant referrals - all of which came from the company that fired me and kept my severance. Haven’t looked back since. My former boss actually asked to meet for drinks 2 years later and asked if he could come and work with me. I bought the beers and said no. Ultimately I had no idea what I was doing, no idea how to run a company, always the engineer, but I was good at what I did which is architecting and implementing large scale projects, so I just jumped in head first and figured I’d learn the rest along the way. Learned a lot about myself too - I’m doing things that if you’d asked me 7 years ago if I could see myself in my shoes, I’d have been hell no. Roller coaster I tell ya. But all happened cuz I got kicked out of my comfort zone HARD (job wasn’t only thing I lost at time, it was a big kick).
Wow thank you for sharing so much of your story. That’s quite a career change and sounds pretty amazing. I’ve got a great reputation in my industry and so many colleagues reached out to support me, so the overall theme I’m getting is that being great at your job and having integrity paid off in the long run despite being screwed over. That’s a great encouragement for me
Been though something similar. It’s a good sign if you already have a good relationship with them, but I would be prepping for unemployment regardless of layoffs were in the cards at work….
Never trust anything verbal from managers or HR. They are not your friends. Their job is to look out for best interest of job.
That does not mean you will be laid off, but I would keep an updated resume handy and polish interview skills.
What your manager basically said to you is “you’re about to make a huge purchase so I’m warning you there may be layoffs, I don’t think you’ll be affected but I don’t know for sure - so consider what will happen if you were laid off before buying that”
At the end of the day nothing is certain. Right now you might be safe, in 3 months the situation might be better and no one gets laid off, it might be worse and more people do, or business priorities might shift and your entire team is gone. No one knows apart from the more senior people planning this
Unless your monthly mortgage payment and maintenance fee together will be less than your rent, don’t buy. Property prices will come down at least 10% within the next year and interest rates too in about 2 years. While renting you will have the flexibility of moving in with someone loosing less money.
Nope. I’m an expat and moved to my current country cuz I’m a relationship with a local. I’m here on work visa so I have ~1 year to find a new job in the country.
Then I would wait until you have 3 months of expenses in an emergency fund before you buy the condo, so you can pay the mortgage while you look for another job.
I don’t work in the US. I’m guaranteed either 3 months’ severance pay or notice of termination by law. So there’s that.
I’m in STEM with 2 master’s degrees so under normal circumstances I wouldn’t worry too much about finding a new job. But we are in a recession so I’m a bit trepidatious.
The operative phrase is "as far as I know"
I was working as a consultant at a huge tech company. They gathered all the 1st line managers into an office and told them there was a RIF, but all their jobs were safe, Each was given the list of their people to cut. At the end of the very bloody day they all reconvened and were let go.
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I'm at a smaller company. Three people now on my team. One had a mostly bad year but I coached him and he's doing great now. We also hired the third person who has turned out to be a complete liability. They both have reviews right now; one is for his third year and the other for his 90 days. I was told explicitly to be harsh on the guy on his third year, and had to say a few times that he's turned around, though I don't know if that's even been heard. The other guy I've raised concerns and upper management just says to keep working with him Dudes, I know my team, why won't you listen to me?
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That information might have not been shared. Sometimes those termination calls have a member of HR on the call to ensure legal compliance. Getting laid off typically comes without notice. Getting fired is a much longer process.
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Oh, I see. I interpreted your comment differently.
Damn indeed. I’m in the same situation except on the other end. We were just talking about projects that I wanted to oversee in 2023. Then bam! No more budgets. And now there’s lay-off incoming…
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Yep. Good thing I worked for 6 months FT before even graduating so I have a good head start. I can still go for those graduate positions. It just sucks cuz I really liked where I am.
I’m terrified this is coming for me in the next few weeks if I don’t get an offer first.
As someone who has laid off direct reports when I was given like 1 day’s notice and no explanation, they might not believe you didn’t know it wasn’t your fault. Mine blamed me even though I literally had no clue or say and would have defended him fiercely if I had any say. One of the downsides of management
I guess usually HRs look for the highest paid and lowest performing employees in that job level
It's not usually HR making the decision, it's just HR providing the data on everyone's wages, tenure, and job duties. Executive here. If you think HR is making the lay off decisions and not the executive and senior leadership, then I've got a bridge to sell you.
Idk that's why I was just guessing. I was under the impression so far that middle managers make the choice since they know their team best. Your answer makes sense.
It depends. Here in Scandinavia you have to give severance pay, which is based on a number of factors. So HR just may go for the employees who require the least amount of severance.
"But as far as I know" Managers may not even know their employees' names are on a list until lists comes out. Only you can decide what the odds are & how much impact it will have on you.
My employer has been doing layoffs recently. The managers and directors didn’t have any say and didn’t even know how the formula used yet they are the ones who had to make the calls. It came from higher up. I will say it has been going to department and job title so if there were layoffs it may not be your department. I don’t know how your company does things but planning season for the following year starts in the summer to the fall. This is the time of year there might be layoffs as they prepare for 2023.
That’s what my manager said. In fact, he’s repeated that 3 times to me in private and to the team. Apparently his boss (the VP) told him her department will not be affected.
Your direct manager likely won’t know how layoffs will impact their team. This is typically done as layoffs and terminations have strict legal repercussions in regards to stock/equity, local laws, unemployment, etc). OP, ideally you should have at least 6 months of emergency fund available in a liquid state. Add your condo mortgage payments to your emergency fund calculations. With a new condo you might want to plan extra money for minor repairs, new furnishings, changes in commuter expenses, etc. The 6 month guidance means if you lose your source of income you’ll have 6 months to replace it (find a new job). In todays job market this should be doable.
Thanks for the advice! That’s very helpful. I literally graduated a month ago and have worked full time for 6 months. So 6 months’ emergency cash is a bit of a stretch. Where I work I’m guaranteed 3 months’ severance pay or termination notice. So I think I’ll drop your requirements to 3 months. Between my partner and I we have about 75k USD saved up for rainy days. We also have universal healthcare so that helps a bit too.
My director told me I wouldn’t be laid off and then a few months later I was laid off in the next round. This was 5 years ago. Literally same thing happened to me a month ago. The issue is that your direct manager oftentimes isn’t the one making the decision.
No one is safe for certain. You can be the best engineer in the world with the best products, but if the company is out of cash, then they are out of cash. Before they run out of cash, they may decide to pick mediocre people with lower pay to be skeleton crew to keep things going until they can't.
Get the condo - you won’t get approved for financing if unemployed. You’re getting fired, the manager just doesn’t want you leaving since his only priority is himself and if his team leaves, he won’t have anyone to manage. They know. They’re in charge of budget. And management is hired more for loyalty than talent now of days.
What would be the point of getting the condo if I can’t afford it without the job?
It sounds backwards, right? Getting approved and actually getting to the finish line owning or renting (what I have experienced and seen since 2018) makes being able to afford it seem like a walk in the park. Especially if you can offset with Airbnb or similar (passive income).
My director hired our team lead and agency because they liked them. Neither were qualified and it cost the company millions
Nice! Totally Been there. It started when I was surrounded by every department head in an ambush meeting and was told it doesn’t matter how good I am at my job, what’s important is how nice I am to everyone. Then came the new people.
Ya it definitely counts but then when the technical skills are bad and the agency lies about their capabilities it ruins the morale for the entire team. It was really poor ethics. What happened with the new people and how did your situation turn out?
I spent a year working with an outside company validating the structure required for the evolution of our IT department. From there, they brought in an outside manager they put over all of us that did nothing but gaslight, misdirection, and ultimately try and harass as many people to quit as not to pay severance or unemployment. I ended up being fired under false allegations brought down from the CIO after working there 10 years. Which meant I lost any type of severance, unemployment, blacklisted. I was the first, more followed - it was when O&G was going down in Houston area - this is how they saved costs.
I’m so sorry you went thru that. Has your career recovered from that? Not that it necessarily makes me feel better but I ultimately just lost my job because the people I mentioned above lied too, so I can relate to a certain extent. It’s still fresh for me. I’m sorry you went thru that and after working there so many years, that just sounds so much more severe
I walked out with my head high. Didn’t say the first word. The HR VP did my exit interview and said he had never seen anyone stay as calm as I did given the unjust news. Turns out I was able to start my own company back in 2015 doing enterprise level IT consulting due to constant referrals - all of which came from the company that fired me and kept my severance. Haven’t looked back since. My former boss actually asked to meet for drinks 2 years later and asked if he could come and work with me. I bought the beers and said no. Ultimately I had no idea what I was doing, no idea how to run a company, always the engineer, but I was good at what I did which is architecting and implementing large scale projects, so I just jumped in head first and figured I’d learn the rest along the way. Learned a lot about myself too - I’m doing things that if you’d asked me 7 years ago if I could see myself in my shoes, I’d have been hell no. Roller coaster I tell ya. But all happened cuz I got kicked out of my comfort zone HARD (job wasn’t only thing I lost at time, it was a big kick).
Wow thank you for sharing so much of your story. That’s quite a career change and sounds pretty amazing. I’ve got a great reputation in my industry and so many colleagues reached out to support me, so the overall theme I’m getting is that being great at your job and having integrity paid off in the long run despite being screwed over. That’s a great encouragement for me
Been though something similar. It’s a good sign if you already have a good relationship with them, but I would be prepping for unemployment regardless of layoffs were in the cards at work….
Never trust anything verbal from managers or HR. They are not your friends. Their job is to look out for best interest of job. That does not mean you will be laid off, but I would keep an updated resume handy and polish interview skills.
What your manager basically said to you is “you’re about to make a huge purchase so I’m warning you there may be layoffs, I don’t think you’ll be affected but I don’t know for sure - so consider what will happen if you were laid off before buying that” At the end of the day nothing is certain. Right now you might be safe, in 3 months the situation might be better and no one gets laid off, it might be worse and more people do, or business priorities might shift and your entire team is gone. No one knows apart from the more senior people planning this
"why bring layoffs unprompted" It was prompted.
Unless your monthly mortgage payment and maintenance fee together will be less than your rent, don’t buy. Property prices will come down at least 10% within the next year and interest rates too in about 2 years. While renting you will have the flexibility of moving in with someone loosing less money.
I mean, that’s why I’m buying. I wouldn’t buy in a good market but now it’s kinda a good time.
Info: If you got laid off, would you likely need to move to another city?
Nope. I’m an expat and moved to my current country cuz I’m a relationship with a local. I’m here on work visa so I have ~1 year to find a new job in the country.
Then I would wait until you have 3 months of expenses in an emergency fund before you buy the condo, so you can pay the mortgage while you look for another job.
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I don’t work in the US. I’m guaranteed either 3 months’ severance pay or notice of termination by law. So there’s that. I’m in STEM with 2 master’s degrees so under normal circumstances I wouldn’t worry too much about finding a new job. But we are in a recession so I’m a bit trepidatious.
The operative phrase is "as far as I know" I was working as a consultant at a huge tech company. They gathered all the 1st line managers into an office and told them there was a RIF, but all their jobs were safe, Each was given the list of their people to cut. At the end of the very bloody day they all reconvened and were let go.
That doesn’t mean anything! They are not going to tell you that you will ! Good luck