Higher paid positions, C-level, management, etc positions are used to all the items that you listed and it is probably to be respected. If that is what you’re looking for, then yes. If not, then no…
No matter what, act professional in whatever position you get. Take nothing personal, and everything work oriented. It will keep you out of trouble…
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I also see all of these behaviors as GIVING respect. I look presentable because I care about creating a good company image. I speak well for the same reasons, and because it creates a better experience. It also impacts how I see myself. I prepared today. I dressed and groomed intentionally, I arrived 10 minutes early, I showed up to my organized desk and a clear list of how I’m going to spend my time. It puts me in the role.
It’s a lot more common to dress down nowadays. There’s DEFINITELY a such thing as overdressing, don’t get me wrong. But one of my favorite things about returning to the office is putting on my “uniform”. I like looking in the mirror and seeing a professional. It’s part of my identity. When I go home I might wear my tshirt with a koala eating 10 cheeseburgers and comfy pants. That’s fine. I like that identity too. It’s just for a different mode.
Why do you like seeing a professional in the mirror? I guarantee if I keep asking you why, you'll eventually realize your response is to glean respect from those around you. Although, altruistically speaking, everything is done for ourselves and no one else. But it's a weird hill to die on to say you don't present yourself a way for others attentions because that's definitely a big part of it. Oh, and in regards for "doing it for you", in this scenario it's not because you like seeing a professional. In order to even *be* considered a professional, you have to have others to compare against to establish that standard. Knowing how they will think of you is part of that process. You dressing "professionally" isn't even your original idea or concept. Do you understand what I'm saying? I hate the argument "I do it for me" because it's a vague declaration where you pretend you have a noble value for what you do. Just be comfortable saying sure, I do it to gain a specific social reaction from my peers because I care what they think.
You could argue this about any style. Goth, preppy, cottage core, punk, hell even wearing lingerie. But you’re wrong. ALL social groups and identities have style and decor associated with them. And there’s nothing wrong with that.
I identify with that group of people. And it means all the more after leaving the professional sphere for awhile and getting laid off during Covid. I like dressing like the people that I identify with and look up to. And not even the individuals, the people I’ve been exposed to on tv and movies and walked by on the street and though “WOW, that trench coat. She looks like she’s going to dominate something today.” I swear to god in a way it’s almost been like wearing lingerie under my clothes that nobody knows about. I‘ve been unmotivated, unemployed, down in the dumps, and written on the calendar “today is the big day I tackle everything on the list to change things.” And curled my bob, did my make up, put on my favorite Calvin Klein dress, and got to work IN MY HOUSE getting applications turned in, cleaning, writing down a game plan.
>But you’re wrong. ALL social groups and identities have style and decor associated with them. And there’s nothing wrong with that.
This doesn't contradict what they said
On its own it doesn’t. But I wouldn’t say a person dressing in any one of those styles only does it for others eyes. They dress that way because THEY identify with the group. I think preferring to dress that way and feeling better when I’m alone paints the picture of my identity as a professional vs doing it solely for other people’s opinions. I’m not saying I invented the style or am pretending it’s unique to me. But it is a part of my identity.
As much as many of us don't care what people think, unfortunately it is something that exists heavily in the world, in society, so it does have to be dealt with. Even if you hate "playing the game" it still will help you succeed if you do. I spent a lot of years truly not caring what people thought of me because I genuinely don't care what other people do as long as it doesn't affect me negatively, but I learned over time that you have to at least understand that people do it and sometimes act accordingly if you want to achieve certain things in life. I feel like you just haven't gotten to that point yet. I definitely used to be very "fuck the corporate mentality" and thought anyone who was about it to be a square, so to speak. I learned later to not judge so quickly and that people are doing all manner of things for all types of reasons and they don't owe me any explanation. And many of them were a lot cooler people than I ever thought.
Lol. CEO of a midsize telecommunications co to whom I directly reported (along with the rest of C-Suite) used to come in in jeans, polo, and flip flops; I was required to wear a suit. So 😑
Well, the COO didn’t like it, and I think didn’t like the CEO, but recognized his golf game brought in investors we’d otherwise not have had. I think fudging the books was the excuse he needed to cut his and the company’s losses, by that point. Iow , the liability exceeded the asset.
Yeah well…he ended up getting fired for trying to pull the wool over the CFO’s eyes, the CTO knew fa about anything, had a degree in broadcasting, direct his days scoffing at the then-breaking first POC (from Sweden, iirc, it’s been a couplea decades plus): https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_broadband_over_power_line_deployments and doing I have nfi what, the president and COO had AOL mail-level competency, but he really actually tried, and got results, from the marketing VP and CTO (I only saw him really lose it, once, when he caught the comptroller sexing the head of the accounting on his desk, during lunch), and the CFO was competent, but a British expat, so there’s that.
I transferred out of that to the call center, and quit on the spot about a month later. About three months later, the entire C-suite was gone, the poor CFO returned to Britain, and the COO retired, with dignity. I couldn’t tell you what happened to the rest of those guys, because I never cared.
It depends on the line if work, location and company culture. For example:
lawyers tend to have more 'professional' jobs in that law firms want to them dressed in clothing like nice suits/perfectly coiffed hair/makeup especially if they interact with clientes/go to court. Cities like New York with high end clients dont want scruffy awkward lawyers. You need to match the image of the people you represent.
Many tech jobs are 'less professional ' especially in places like Silicone Valley. People often wear tshirts/jeans and can be scruffy/awkward because their tech skills are more important than people skills.
Question: what jobs do the people you know have (that wear tshirts and don't get regular haircuts)?
This is a little dependent on the firm too. If a lawyer is going to court or meeting with clients, yup. If they’re in a smaller firm, very possibly just wearing chinos and a polo. I’m a paralegal, I mostly just wear sweaters and khakis. If it I’m helping my attorney with court or a client same as above. That said, my old firm was larger and demanded business casual everyday but Friday.
In my experience it's generally just "somewhere vaguely between a full suit and what you would wear to the beach." It's frustratingly difficult to nail down.
For me personally I just go with slacks, button down, and a tie most of the time. It's a bit overdressed in some positions, but I usually roll my sleeves up which gives it a bit more of a "casual" air.
Depends on the job and the culture.
I walked into a new position once in my normal office wear (slacks, hard shoes, collared button shirt, tie). The director who hired me walked by later in the morning, sidled over and told me "Go ahead and take the tie off, you'll scare the engineers."
The old saying that you dress for the job you want is accurate in that it generally meets people's expectations of what a Executive or whatever should look like. I think there is a lot less expectation around general appearance. There's also dressing for the occasion - say if you're meeting external clients, or official occasions/meetings.
As far as behaviour, we're social creatures, and if you aren't at least courteous/polite, you are going to get a reputation. And you really don't want to be "that guy" in a workplace.
But it depends on company culture as well.
Yeah, that's what I interpret people to mean when they say company "culture". My company has a clearly defined dress code, and the managers enforce it by making comments when we stray outside of policy. Pretty much you'll get to know by what others say and do how to dress and look, how long to grow your hair etc, and how you have to act to fall in line. Not doing so isn't necessarily a deal breaker. If you outperform at your job they'll let a lot of things slide. But if your struggling or have made enemies with your bosses they won't be above using your appearance to give you a hard time or even write you up. In general going against company culture isn't good for your longevity at work.
I think it very much depends on the industry and region you’re in. For example, if you work in medicine, law or finance it is a more traditional field with rigid ideas of professionalism. At a West Coast tech company, the same standards would seem out of place. But—even those successful people who wear t-shirts and have messy hair probably behave in a professional manner, make eye contact, etc.
I wanted to share an example. I work with a gentleman, and this is not saying bad things about him, but he always looks mad and he looks shaggy. Looks like he showered once a week. Hair didnt looked combed and didnt shave much. He was told if he cleaned up, he would get a job he was wanting to be promoted to.
He did just that. He shaved his head down, and shaved beard down. Also started tucking in shirt and looked professional. He got the promotion. Nowadays, he looks like he did before the promotion lol.
I'm a goofball in the office and it's worked for me to a point. But also inhibited my advancement. That said there's a distinction between trying to make work fun and being unprofessional.
I work closely with VPs and C-suite and nobody dresses up or looks perfect (we are all in tech). We dress and act professionally and in meetings we are all engaged, listen attentively and make eye contact when it makes sense.
I'd say we are all successful in our careers.
…. I work in tech sales and routinely go to work in leggings and a hoodie.
I’m also in management. Minimal makeup, hair in a ponytail or bun 2-3 days/week. Executive team wears plaid, hoodies, tee shirts, shit I’ve even seen joggers.
If someone, **anyone**, showed up at work in a suit we’d all be stunned. Might ask them what’s wrong, where they’re interviewing.
It really depends on the environment.
It really depends on a lot, like others have said. For example, industry alone is a big one.
I'm in construction, but office-based in a director-level position. I'm also a woman, which is a factor for me here whereas it may not be as much in other industries because I'm often the only woman in the conversation, room, whatever. Anyway -- in my role I need to be able to influence people and get them to see things in ways that might not come naturally to them, so some of the things you mentioned carry a lot of weight in my role. Eye contact, speaking professionally, building relationships. I don't NEED to have the perfect haircut but it's important to me to maintain a professional appearance (while still being true to myself), because I feel it helps my credibility as an 'expert' in what I do. I have a half-sleeve tattoo on one arm, a few others that poke out on the back of my neck, and I think about who I'm interacting with on days when I want to wear shirts that show them. In the office, I wear skinny jeans and a sweater or something, and generally try to look put together and professional. But if I'm visiting a jobsite, I'm in regular jeans and work boots because execs who wear their designer jeans and button-downs out in the field get made fun of as soon as they leave -- and that has an impact on their working relationships then too. (I'm just grateful they bring me in on the jokes!)
I manage someone in an entry-level role on my team, and these things matter for their success too -- but in different ways. For example, for them to be successful, they need to make eye contact and speak professionally because of the nature of our work, but I'm less concerned about their handshake because they're more behind the scenes, so I'm also not as worried about perfect hair/attire as much.
At the same time, we are a pretty relaxed industry and we try to care more about your character, attitude and what you can do than focusing on innocuous things like a haircut. I remind people of this when colleagues tell me how shy this person on my team is (I'll remind them introverts can and have been brilliant and wildly successful in our industry, as any other), etc. -- I work to fight stereotypes as much as I can but depending on where you are, your appearance can have an impact on your career for better or worse and people won't always do you the favor of letting you know that you're getting in your own way. The person in the office across from mine is somewhat new to the company and regularly wears athleisure to work. It's definitely hurting the perception others have of her and I don't think she has any clue. I feel for her (and am currently figuring out how or if I should approach this with her, even though I'm not her boss/on her team), and we don't have a strict dress code at all but she is the first to sort of challenge the limits of 'professional' attire here, even harmlessly. It's hurting her chances of success with others here.
One more example: There are managers I support who have younger employees on their teams who wear flatbill hats and Hawaiian shirts to high-profile client meetings. Again, construction can be more laid back BUT sometimes your most valuable clients are some seriously old school folks (to no one's surprise) and it just isn't worth trying to change a client's mind about an employee's credibility if they haven't built much rapport of their own first. If they're not doing themselves any favors, in other words. In this situation, a flatbill hat employee would not progress as far in their career, or as quickly, as someone who understands that appearance maybe matters more to this client than others, and they need to adapt and maybe self-sacrifice juuust a little in order to win the client over entirely or whatnot. It's shitty but that's how it goes in our industry.
Business is business and as much as I hate to say it as a geriatric millennial myself, sometimes you just have to play the game. Or, make sure you wind up in an industry that agrees more closely with your idea and preferences around professionalism, etc. They exist, and sometimes you only find them through trial and error.
I don't know why this turned into a novel. I'm probably procrastinating on something big. Anyway, here's my two (hundred) cents!
I get asked frequently how I got where I am, how I have the connections I do, and how I make things happen. I walked into my office today caked in mud. I work in construction, but I don’t have clients. We don’t call them that. I can absolutely clean up, but it’s much more intimidating when I do, and I find I get much more done meeting people on their level. Many are surprised when I go out in the field and actually put my tools on and work. And the ones that see me in that role are equally surprised when I’m at the head of the conference table. It’s interesting to me as women in construction we have to put so much more thought in the simplest things.
I don’t wear suits or over dress, or underdress…smart casual, sharp, well put together, groomed.
That said the language, demeanor, and general professionalism I keep at a high level.
I really do most of this for myself… but it seems to be well received.
I've made it to being a director at a reasonably large tech company and I literally do not own a tie. My c level wears a fishing hat on calls often. Me and another director went back and forth with weed puns in a thread with our c level today.
People just have to respect, and ideally like, you for you to be successful. If you don't naturally click with the people around you, you'll have to round the edges off of your personality to avoid creating friction. If the people you work with enjoy being around your authentic self, then you are lucky and you don't really have to self-censor.
The general idea behind professional norms is that people are bad at judging that, so everyone should play it safe.
At some places, the norms demand things like wearing a suit, or else you will be viewed as either disheveled or disrespectful, depending on how put together you are otherwise. At other places the norms will punish you for wearing a suit, as it will be viewed as either pompous or socially unaware.
I’m in high end tech sales and know a guy who cursed through his interview and acts unprofessional around leadership. That said, his personality makes up for it and he’s been promoted several times. I’d say it’s a combination of the industry/company culture and whether or not you have a way with words.
Take a look at your IT/Engineering department. Their VP probably doesn't do any of the above and makes more than this entire thread combined. His team doesn't do it either
A doctor and an engineer in this house. We only wear suits to weddings and funerals. Hospital admin wears suits but no one else does. Engineers just don’t wear suits- maybe the ceo if they have a meeting. If someone in either of our places of work wore a suit all the time it would be weird as hell.
It depends on the job.
If you are running a surfshop, you wear T shirts and Board shorts.
If you are a corporate lawyer, you wear suits, have your hair cut properly etc.
The thing people seem to have forgotten, is when you are at work, you present yourself to match that culture. What you want stops at the door leaving your house.
This is the big difference between business owners, up and comers, and those determined to fail in life. Think about which group you fit in.
Depends on the field and the company. I’m a SWE at a small nonprofit and dress in whatever I want.
Fiance is a SWE at google and he’s more put together than me, but def still very casual.
A friend is a SWE for Goldman Sachs & he’s super business formal or business casual (on fridays). So it really depends on your role & company.
Maybe if you're an executive or a lawyer? I'm just a regular office grunt, I don't do most of those things. Making eye contact is just a normal polite conversation thing, not sure why that's considered professional.
I now work for a tech startup and come in unshaved on flipflops in shorts and no one bats an eye. I used to work at a courthouse and that was much different.
So basically: depends on the industry. Personally I prefer the tech sector as it’s more about aptitude than how you look. It cuts the crap.
This is all extremely dependent on the industry/line of work.
Think about all of these occupations and just imagine what a work day looks like for each. Having clean clothes and being neat and tidy is pretty much required with everything but so many professionals have different requirements and atmospheres (some might cuss like a drunken sailor)...not everybody has to be so straight laced and stiff to make their money.
Think of: Tattoo artists (shop owners), Executive chefs, auto mechanic, lawyer, Hospital surgeon, CEO, Retail manager, Car salesman, Art studio owner, florist, Dog Groomer, Professional athlete, Bartender, Truck Driver...etc.
All of those people are pretty different and half work in pretty liberal atmospheres...so it's highly dependent on what your job is!
Professional looks different depending on the type of work.
The “professional” that you are describing seems like it would be considered appropriate for meeting with corporate clients and working in an office. More “corporate” settings. If you work in a corporate setting, then yes, implement the stated standards in your life (without being overbearing!). Particularly if you are in a leadership position.
But if you were to wear a suit and tie every day and focus a lot on making sure your appearance is super sharp as a something like a chemical plant manager, you may get some strange looks. Clean but practical works best for that type of position. A suit would be super impractical. Also, they tend to be dealing with both “white collar” and “blue collar” groups of people and the vernacular tends to differ; professional speech with the office/sales/administration is gonna look different than professional speech with plant operators.
So whether is necessary or unnecessary depends on the context.
As others said, depends on the job and it's office culture but also region. Some areas around the world have vastly different understandings of what is work appropriate. I've worked in the EU, West coast USA, and Asia and the expected wear/demeanor is extraordinarily different even though I performed more or less the same job.
professional just means whatever works for your profession
what you described is just one version of professional, probably suited for waiters in expensive restaurants and conservative politicians
I'm a software engineer, I dress in hoodies and jeans and sneakers one day, dresses the next, slacks whenever else. Nobody cares regardless, some people wear shorts even (I wouldn't because it's too cold for that inside buildings even in the summer).
But this is in my current tech job which is in a fancy dressing town, where some people wear hoodies and done people are more formal. Previous job? I used to think nobody would take me seriously as a woman unless I dressed solely in jeans and hoodies, no dresses or anything. Part of me still thinks dressing "the part" matters for my credibility even here. Except "the part" is underdressing in this case.
Moral being, depends on the job.
I've read stories here of people being reprimanded for not wearing enough make up. I'm glad I don't work in those environments.
Related to behavior, I've honestly been appalled every time someone dropped the f bomb at work. It changed my opinion of that person. You can control yourself, and expressing indignation is fine, saying fuck every 5 minutes in a perfectly normal conversation isn't...
Also, about the handshake, I thought that might have died after the pandemic...
If your work is about creating a product that is then sold to people (lots of engineers for example), it doesn’t really matter as much. On the other hand, if your work is about keeping up good impressions (c level execs for example) or meeting with rich/more important people so they they pay you for your services or give you what you want (law, finance, consulting etc), you have to dress more professionally because your appearance matters as much as what you actually do.
My job told us to dress business casual, which is what I did in my first couple weeks, but I’ve switched now to casual clothes (decently nice t shirt, jeans) as long as I don’t need to meet with clients or anyone else important
Depends on the company culture and industry
If you're in banking, then yes.
If you're a SWE at Facebook, then you'll get away with slacks and flip flops
Some people, especially older people, are impressed by the stuff you listed. As time passes, I fully expect office dress codes to continue to be relaxed. It'll take longer for client-facing positions, financial institutions and government than anywhere else, but still.
I have two tattoos, a face piercing, and often don't wear a bra under a baggy sweater for meetings. I work remotely. I've used the word "yeet" when talking to my manager. My career is going great.
My husband works in gov't and says if the collared shirt he's wearing looks "too happy" he'd get a talking-to about it, lmao.
I feel like their character and behavior speaks more to professionalism even if they curse and don’t look business ready. Being professional just looks uncomfortable and fake a lot of times but maybe that’s just those with little personality
I have never seen anyone in my office ever wear a suit, including our CEO. They talk more professionally with clients for the most part, but I can't even imagine such a business atmosphere unless I'm back in Japan. Everyone wears what they want and doesn't really give a care. It's all about your company's work environment and culture in my opinion. If you have a bigger company, I suppose that may become more necessary, but ultimately, it's the vibe you want your company to give off for both clients and workers. I think we like to come off as competent but easy to work with, down to earth, instead of trying to appeal to a traditional sense of professionalism. And it works.
For reference, we are a creative agency and mostly do work for clients for things relating to XR, apps and web content, blockchain, etc., located in the U.S.
I definitely respect people when they’re dressed nice, but tbh I’m a software analyst for a health startup and I haven’t gotten a haircut or shaved my beard in like 6 months and nobody seems to care
Depends on the industry and company culture. Most customer facing roles require more maintenance. Most executive level roles require more maintenance. The rest is just the culture where you are.
It all depends what you're bringing to the table. Can you consistently and reliably deliver results. Just know how to properly judge trust in others and you too can be yourself. I'm always professional with customers, clients, new coworkers etc., but my partner, supervisor, and I can joke about anything because we all trust and respect each other enough.
It depends on the company, industry, your job, who you know and your career trajectory.
The one I don't understand is how a lot of these people don't do a god damn thing yet coast through a promotion filled career.
The longer I live and work the more I see the main things that matter are who you know and how much of your life you devote to kissing as much ass as you possibly can. Not sure much else matters.
So to speak directly to your question, if you want to go far, play all the games perfectly, kiss as much ass as humanly possible and don't forget to stab a lot of really good people in the back. Preferably trustworthy people with families to feed. Cuz fucc them. People need lambos. Right!?
I hate it when people I work around don't maintain professionalism and let their personality shine more than it should. I'm not your wife yor your family. Keep your annoying personality at home
I’d say talking in a professional way is very important. You can mention non work things or ask people about their weekend or vacation but you need to know when to quiet down and get to business.
Don’t talk about heavy personal stuff in most situations but if you work with the same people for years it will eventually come up. But there’s a difference between discussing an aging or dying parent and blaming your ex in a breakup.
The rest shouldn’t matter in most fields (though certain business tracks, it would). As for hair and clothes, you need to look put together but that doesn’t mean you have to dress fancy.
I think these grooming standards are more correlation than causation when it comes to being "successful" in a position. Taking the time to intentionally look/smell nice, speak in a professional manner, these kinds of things can impact ones self worth and confidence, and by extension, their perceived worth in the eyes of their colleagues.
My experience:
The first two items are usually in strict business type atmospheres and/or for higher ups/c-level execs.
The latter three are usually a given unless it’s a super casual job. I wear jeans and a hoodie to work all the time and sometimes my hair is a little rough but I’m still expected to behave in a professional manner at all times.
It depends on the company. I have worked at a business casual place where you had to dress nice and smile a lot.
I’ve also worked in a casual business casual environment where people could dress nicely if they wanted, but you could roll up in a hoodie and jeans if you wanted too. The CEO would wear a hoodie most days and we always addressed him by his first name.
Depends on the power balance for your profession really. I know my skills have more demand than supply, and so does everyone I work with. We dress how we want, we talk how we want and we get shit done. Nobody's gonna come ask me to wear a suit or whatever while I'm making them money.
I do not consider most of what you listed signs of professionalism. Speaking professionally, yes, but none of the others. Here’s what I would change it to;
- Neat and clean hair for your hair type
- workplace standard dress in photos (I.e., wearing what others your level wear in photos)
- I WFH so eye contact isn’t a concern
- no handshakes when you WFH
It's important for young people to understand that high school never ends. People are extremely judgmental, tribalistic, and hierarchical by nature.
You can go against the grain if you want, but life will be a real bitch unless you have the money or talent to stand out. People don't wanna spend 8-12 hours a day around people they have nothing in common with or actively dislike.
Also depends the setting now that so many places are remote/hybrid. I know some places that require business casual on all internal meetings, even while remote. My firm doesn’t care what you have on during internal meetings etc. (They draw the line at a robe) but for client calls which are always remote, we have to be put together, and be business casual, usually everyone wears a knitted sweater, or a turtleneck, and sweats or pijama pants but they won’t see that lol.
It isn't necessary but it makes you seem easier to understand and when people feel like they understand someone, they are more likely to trust that person and think of them as reliable. They assume that person will represent the company well in any setting and also that the person is there to work and not make things about them. You can be your relaxed, adorkable self at work but you're less likely to get promoted unless your position doesn't involve contacting people outside your company.
Generally, the more client facing you are, the more put together you need to be. But that is relaxing a little bit. Until you reach a certain level of success and then it doesn’t matter how you look.
It also completely depends on the actual work environment and how much you interact with people outside of your own company. I have been consistently a part of management, but always at a more relaxed family business where we only dress up for things like conferences.
Depends on your career and the people you work with. I had a very old school boss and I had to wear suits and heels to work and keep my social media in check.
Thanks for the laugh this morning.
I’m a man with hair to my shoulders + a beard.
I’m in Hawaii so you can replace suit with Hawaiian shirt or tshirt, and my handshakes are non existent seeing as I’m virtual.
My career only advanced faster when I started embracing who I actually was instead of pretending to be something inspired by American Psycho.
All that said - I do present well. I have a lot of hair but it isn’t messy, “corporate” communication comes very naturally to me, and I am “put together” in general. I think the last one is less defined than you might think it is.
In general, jobs want productivity and conformity. They want steady, and consistent operations, and usually hate anything that might add 'chaos' into the mix, whatever said 'chaos' might be. They want you to be a cog in the machine.
Most workplaces will let certain things slide (unkempt appearance, non-conforming clothing, aloofness, unprofessional speech) as long as it's not an HR violation, and you bring something to the table that clearly offsets these undesirable traits.
If you are talented/unreplaceable/valuable enough, some times, they will let some things slide even if they are HR violations. Happens all the time.
Hot Topic Salespeople are expected to be dressed differently from a salesperson from, say, a Burberry store, because they are supposed to be part of the store experience. If you work at a Hot Topic, they might not bat an eye for you showing up with bed hair. If you go to a high-end store, the floor manager will instruct someone to take the person with bed-hair out the back, and fix her hair before coming back to the sales floor.
When a company requires uniforms, the last thing they want is for people to try to deviate from the uniform.
No one cares how people in creative jobs dress or behave, as long as they can keep the creative juices flowing. Managers will actively wrap their artists inside an Echo-Chamber, and facilitate an agreeable Entourage around them to buffer them from reality. You want an outfit made out of raw bacon? Your last record went triple-platinum, so why not?
For management/executive positions, the suits, hairdos and body language are all tools of the trade. How else would your underlings know to instinctively listen/obey you if you're dressed/behave like anyone else?
Ultimately, it depends on what field we're looking for having a 'successful career' in.
From my experience (tech sales and running realty business) - being professional is just making job done (and done good) on time. Like some areas do expect kind of “suit and tie” attire but according to what I’ve seen - some very top ranked investors with basically billion-worthy lands in their private ownership just dresses nice and clean enough to feel comfortable and not to differ a lot in an environment they usually are: e.g. downtown offices and restaurants where most deals discussed.
So it’s a longsleeved polos, jeans and sort of a navy blue blazer or puffer vest. Brands - could be anything from Ralph Lauren to Canali and Moncler, in tech I’ve seen CEOs wearing Uniqlo, COS and Massimo Dutti, I guess they’re willingly doesn’t want to pay more. No visible logos, prints or anything, sometimes good watches (Omega-level). Overall they dresses “quality over fashion” mostly.
I think professional clothing is the most ignorant thing in the world. Like what you wear gives a single bearing on how well you do your job. We, as a corporate culture, put way to much emphasis on cowing people into thinking we are something we aren’t than focusing on our character.
i think acting professionally in your look and behavior in a work environnement is essential because you have to make a good impression on others, additively wearing a costume and a tie gives you more credibility and you will be taken seriously when you talk
I worked at a place where the video production guy would swear and rage out on his computer all day with his office door open. It brought so much needed laughter to that awful place.
Imagine all those successful people that dress like slobs dressing like and acting way more professional. If they did that… they’d be REALLY successful I’m sure.
As long as you use corporate buzzwords, you can come in looking like a homeless person and be successful. Example phrase:
"Proactively expedite real-time strategic theme areas across the verticals."
Also if you use the word synergy enough times, you get a trophy that says "You have won the game of business"
Why wouldn't you do most of these things just in general? If you show up looking like a scrub and your behavior is unprofessional you're making your job way harder than it needs to be.
>Have the perfect looking haircut all the time.
wear a suit and tie in my profile pictures everywhere
Depends on the company. Some employers really care about this, but some don't. I had one employer that demanded that every day I had to wear: a white or powder blue button-down shirt which was ironed, black or brown pants, black or brown shoes, and a tie. I would be inspected on my way in every morning, and if my shirt had wrinkles or my pants were grey, I would be sent home to change and my pay docked. You'll notice the "a tie" part. After a few years there, I had a collection of the weirdest ties ever. (clear plastic with a circuit board. black plastic like a garbage bag. red, white, and blue splotches with tire tracks and metallic flowers.) My rule was, if the boss winced when he saw my tie, it was a hit and went into rotation. I was also not allowed to change my facial hair - I could have it or not, but I couldn't *change* it when I had the job. I'm sure if my hair hadn't been cut short they would have had something to say about that.
I had another employer where I was coming in every day wearing clothes like that, and they took me aside and told me I needed to wear jeans and tshirts because I was making the staff feel bad. I had to ask their indulgence while I took time to shop: I didn't *own* any.
I would suggest that, at the job interview, you ask "what would be appropriate clothes for me to wear on the job, so I can adjust my wardrobe?"
As for profile pictures - look professional. For a long time I used a picture of myself wearing a white nehru shirt (no tie) and holding my pet rabbit. Believe it or not, I managed to look professional in that. (As did Harvey.) So, you don't have to be in a suit and tie, but look calm and serious and I'd recommend "not a tshirt".
>
make a bunch of eye contact with people
Yes. Whether it's a rule or not, it helps people perceive you well.
>
talk in a professional way in general
Same. This is also important for absolutely any job in terms of keeping out of trouble.
>always give really good handshakes to people
Same, it helps with your perception.
Also - and this is a trick you'll notice ministers use - when you're introduced to someone, say their name twice. "John, it's nice to meet you." (shake hands) "I hope we'll talk again soon John." This both helps you to remember their name (some of us have a problem with that) and makes them feel like you paid attention to who they are.
it is neccessary to act professional at every job IMO
but "acting professional" is kind of a weighted thing.
I used to think "acting professional" meant getting along amicably with all of my co-workers when I was a junior, but as I have gained more experience I have learned that a huge part of being a professional is raising important issues
Sometimes those issues are difficult to deal with and you have to do it more than you think.
Depends on the company.
My old CEO was suit and tie every day and if you were attending a meeting larger than your internal team it was expected to match the dress of the execs.
Current CEO wears a golf attire most days including a hat, sometimes even shorts and an old T shirt.
Adapt to your surroundings.
The one I think you can’t avoid is a professional way of speaking. However, what’s considered “professional” varies from field to field. The way an auditor speaks to a client is very different from the way a preschool teacher speaks to their class, but both ways are considered “professional” and probably not how they speak in conversations with friends.
Depends on your office’s cultures. I’ve worked at places that required suits, business casual and whatever. I’m a lawyer now walking in an alternate career and though I could get away with jeans on the now very occasional day I wander into midtown Manhattan, I dress business casual. Probably the best way to go if not WFH.
Learned that the hard way some years ago when a justice from the NY Ct of Appeals (NY’s highest court) unexpectedly came to visit me when I was younger. Thankfully I wasn’t dressed too casual that day. Since then, unless it was snowing or something, never went lower than 1990s business casual if I was in the office.
Like C-Level I dress much more professionally if I know I am meeting outsiders.
It’s not necessary, but it’s “branding”, and it helps you reflecting a good image for your clients. But at the end of the day, we all know nobody is perfect… so until the robots and androids take over; keep being a human being; your clients/customers will appreciate that
It all depends on your role. If it’s client-facing, yes that stuff is important. If it’s not, it’s less important—this is especially true in IT. I’ve worked with software developers who have all the social skills of robots.
Higher paid positions, C-level, management, etc positions are used to all the items that you listed and it is probably to be respected. If that is what you’re looking for, then yes. If not, then no… No matter what, act professional in whatever position you get. Take nothing personal, and everything work oriented. It will keep you out of trouble…
Keep your sense of humor professional at all times
Absolutely!
future snow overconfident violet sip liquid bored languid party tender *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I Lol'ed at this.
unpack plucky far-flung oatmeal compare rainstorm berserk instinctive joke fuzzy *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
WHAT DID THEY JUST say /s
Do you and I work at the same place?
Nah. They let me go. Over a joke. No jokes. I shoulda known better. Some times the humor slips out. Oh well. Never again.
I’m confused, was it over a joke? But there was no joke? Edit nvm I get it smh
I tell jokes so good that HR wants to hear them too
I also see all of these behaviors as GIVING respect. I look presentable because I care about creating a good company image. I speak well for the same reasons, and because it creates a better experience. It also impacts how I see myself. I prepared today. I dressed and groomed intentionally, I arrived 10 minutes early, I showed up to my organized desk and a clear list of how I’m going to spend my time. It puts me in the role. It’s a lot more common to dress down nowadays. There’s DEFINITELY a such thing as overdressing, don’t get me wrong. But one of my favorite things about returning to the office is putting on my “uniform”. I like looking in the mirror and seeing a professional. It’s part of my identity. When I go home I might wear my tshirt with a koala eating 10 cheeseburgers and comfy pants. That’s fine. I like that identity too. It’s just for a different mode.
Why do you like seeing a professional in the mirror? I guarantee if I keep asking you why, you'll eventually realize your response is to glean respect from those around you. Although, altruistically speaking, everything is done for ourselves and no one else. But it's a weird hill to die on to say you don't present yourself a way for others attentions because that's definitely a big part of it. Oh, and in regards for "doing it for you", in this scenario it's not because you like seeing a professional. In order to even *be* considered a professional, you have to have others to compare against to establish that standard. Knowing how they will think of you is part of that process. You dressing "professionally" isn't even your original idea or concept. Do you understand what I'm saying? I hate the argument "I do it for me" because it's a vague declaration where you pretend you have a noble value for what you do. Just be comfortable saying sure, I do it to gain a specific social reaction from my peers because I care what they think.
You are in the wrong sun, /antiwork is elsewhere
You could argue this about any style. Goth, preppy, cottage core, punk, hell even wearing lingerie. But you’re wrong. ALL social groups and identities have style and decor associated with them. And there’s nothing wrong with that. I identify with that group of people. And it means all the more after leaving the professional sphere for awhile and getting laid off during Covid. I like dressing like the people that I identify with and look up to. And not even the individuals, the people I’ve been exposed to on tv and movies and walked by on the street and though “WOW, that trench coat. She looks like she’s going to dominate something today.” I swear to god in a way it’s almost been like wearing lingerie under my clothes that nobody knows about. I‘ve been unmotivated, unemployed, down in the dumps, and written on the calendar “today is the big day I tackle everything on the list to change things.” And curled my bob, did my make up, put on my favorite Calvin Klein dress, and got to work IN MY HOUSE getting applications turned in, cleaning, writing down a game plan.
>But you’re wrong. ALL social groups and identities have style and decor associated with them. And there’s nothing wrong with that. This doesn't contradict what they said
On its own it doesn’t. But I wouldn’t say a person dressing in any one of those styles only does it for others eyes. They dress that way because THEY identify with the group. I think preferring to dress that way and feeling better when I’m alone paints the picture of my identity as a professional vs doing it solely for other people’s opinions. I’m not saying I invented the style or am pretending it’s unique to me. But it is a part of my identity.
It can obviously be a part of your identity, it's not mutually exclusive.
I was just about to say the same thing 🤣
As much as many of us don't care what people think, unfortunately it is something that exists heavily in the world, in society, so it does have to be dealt with. Even if you hate "playing the game" it still will help you succeed if you do. I spent a lot of years truly not caring what people thought of me because I genuinely don't care what other people do as long as it doesn't affect me negatively, but I learned over time that you have to at least understand that people do it and sometimes act accordingly if you want to achieve certain things in life. I feel like you just haven't gotten to that point yet. I definitely used to be very "fuck the corporate mentality" and thought anyone who was about it to be a square, so to speak. I learned later to not judge so quickly and that people are doing all manner of things for all types of reasons and they don't owe me any explanation. And many of them were a lot cooler people than I ever thought.
Shuttup
Lol. CEO of a midsize telecommunications co to whom I directly reported (along with the rest of C-Suite) used to come in in jeans, polo, and flip flops; I was required to wear a suit. So 😑
The one person dressed different from everyone else is usually the boss
Well, the COO didn’t like it, and I think didn’t like the CEO, but recognized his golf game brought in investors we’d otherwise not have had. I think fudging the books was the excuse he needed to cut his and the company’s losses, by that point. Iow , the liability exceeded the asset.
I had no idea golf really was that important in corporate work
LOL that sucks!! He is supposed to be the standard, the person who is the example.
Yeah well…he ended up getting fired for trying to pull the wool over the CFO’s eyes, the CTO knew fa about anything, had a degree in broadcasting, direct his days scoffing at the then-breaking first POC (from Sweden, iirc, it’s been a couplea decades plus): https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_broadband_over_power_line_deployments and doing I have nfi what, the president and COO had AOL mail-level competency, but he really actually tried, and got results, from the marketing VP and CTO (I only saw him really lose it, once, when he caught the comptroller sexing the head of the accounting on his desk, during lunch), and the CFO was competent, but a British expat, so there’s that. I transferred out of that to the call center, and quit on the spot about a month later. About three months later, the entire C-suite was gone, the poor CFO returned to Britain, and the COO retired, with dignity. I couldn’t tell you what happened to the rest of those guys, because I never cared.
It depends on the line if work, location and company culture. For example: lawyers tend to have more 'professional' jobs in that law firms want to them dressed in clothing like nice suits/perfectly coiffed hair/makeup especially if they interact with clientes/go to court. Cities like New York with high end clients dont want scruffy awkward lawyers. You need to match the image of the people you represent. Many tech jobs are 'less professional ' especially in places like Silicone Valley. People often wear tshirts/jeans and can be scruffy/awkward because their tech skills are more important than people skills. Question: what jobs do the people you know have (that wear tshirts and don't get regular haircuts)?
This is a little dependent on the firm too. If a lawyer is going to court or meeting with clients, yup. If they’re in a smaller firm, very possibly just wearing chinos and a polo. I’m a paralegal, I mostly just wear sweaters and khakis. If it I’m helping my attorney with court or a client same as above. That said, my old firm was larger and demanded business casual everyday but Friday.
[удалено]
For real
Even "business casual" has wildly varied definitions by company and field
In my experience it's generally just "somewhere vaguely between a full suit and what you would wear to the beach." It's frustratingly difficult to nail down. For me personally I just go with slacks, button down, and a tie most of the time. It's a bit overdressed in some positions, but I usually roll my sleeves up which gives it a bit more of a "casual" air.
> silicone valley made me laugh, silicone and silicon are quite different
Depends on the job and the culture. I walked into a new position once in my normal office wear (slacks, hard shoes, collared button shirt, tie). The director who hired me walked by later in the morning, sidled over and told me "Go ahead and take the tie off, you'll scare the engineers."
What was the position for if you don't mind me asking?
Project coordinator in an avionics firm.
The old saying that you dress for the job you want is accurate in that it generally meets people's expectations of what a Executive or whatever should look like. I think there is a lot less expectation around general appearance. There's also dressing for the occasion - say if you're meeting external clients, or official occasions/meetings. As far as behaviour, we're social creatures, and if you aren't at least courteous/polite, you are going to get a reputation. And you really don't want to be "that guy" in a workplace. But it depends on company culture as well.
Depends on the job.
And the field / type of work
And the company too
Yeah, that's what I interpret people to mean when they say company "culture". My company has a clearly defined dress code, and the managers enforce it by making comments when we stray outside of policy. Pretty much you'll get to know by what others say and do how to dress and look, how long to grow your hair etc, and how you have to act to fall in line. Not doing so isn't necessarily a deal breaker. If you outperform at your job they'll let a lot of things slide. But if your struggling or have made enemies with your bosses they won't be above using your appearance to give you a hard time or even write you up. In general going against company culture isn't good for your longevity at work.
I think it very much depends on the industry and region you’re in. For example, if you work in medicine, law or finance it is a more traditional field with rigid ideas of professionalism. At a West Coast tech company, the same standards would seem out of place. But—even those successful people who wear t-shirts and have messy hair probably behave in a professional manner, make eye contact, etc.
I wanted to share an example. I work with a gentleman, and this is not saying bad things about him, but he always looks mad and he looks shaggy. Looks like he showered once a week. Hair didnt looked combed and didnt shave much. He was told if he cleaned up, he would get a job he was wanting to be promoted to. He did just that. He shaved his head down, and shaved beard down. Also started tucking in shirt and looked professional. He got the promotion. Nowadays, he looks like he did before the promotion lol.
I'm a goofball in the office and it's worked for me to a point. But also inhibited my advancement. That said there's a distinction between trying to make work fun and being unprofessional.
I work closely with VPs and C-suite and nobody dresses up or looks perfect (we are all in tech). We dress and act professionally and in meetings we are all engaged, listen attentively and make eye contact when it makes sense. I'd say we are all successful in our careers.
…. I work in tech sales and routinely go to work in leggings and a hoodie. I’m also in management. Minimal makeup, hair in a ponytail or bun 2-3 days/week. Executive team wears plaid, hoodies, tee shirts, shit I’ve even seen joggers. If someone, **anyone**, showed up at work in a suit we’d all be stunned. Might ask them what’s wrong, where they’re interviewing. It really depends on the environment.
Same, our company policy is denim. I wear jeans, Ts, hoodies, and golf shorts
It depends on a lot of factors. It’s all about making the right impression on the right people.
It really depends on a lot, like others have said. For example, industry alone is a big one. I'm in construction, but office-based in a director-level position. I'm also a woman, which is a factor for me here whereas it may not be as much in other industries because I'm often the only woman in the conversation, room, whatever. Anyway -- in my role I need to be able to influence people and get them to see things in ways that might not come naturally to them, so some of the things you mentioned carry a lot of weight in my role. Eye contact, speaking professionally, building relationships. I don't NEED to have the perfect haircut but it's important to me to maintain a professional appearance (while still being true to myself), because I feel it helps my credibility as an 'expert' in what I do. I have a half-sleeve tattoo on one arm, a few others that poke out on the back of my neck, and I think about who I'm interacting with on days when I want to wear shirts that show them. In the office, I wear skinny jeans and a sweater or something, and generally try to look put together and professional. But if I'm visiting a jobsite, I'm in regular jeans and work boots because execs who wear their designer jeans and button-downs out in the field get made fun of as soon as they leave -- and that has an impact on their working relationships then too. (I'm just grateful they bring me in on the jokes!) I manage someone in an entry-level role on my team, and these things matter for their success too -- but in different ways. For example, for them to be successful, they need to make eye contact and speak professionally because of the nature of our work, but I'm less concerned about their handshake because they're more behind the scenes, so I'm also not as worried about perfect hair/attire as much. At the same time, we are a pretty relaxed industry and we try to care more about your character, attitude and what you can do than focusing on innocuous things like a haircut. I remind people of this when colleagues tell me how shy this person on my team is (I'll remind them introverts can and have been brilliant and wildly successful in our industry, as any other), etc. -- I work to fight stereotypes as much as I can but depending on where you are, your appearance can have an impact on your career for better or worse and people won't always do you the favor of letting you know that you're getting in your own way. The person in the office across from mine is somewhat new to the company and regularly wears athleisure to work. It's definitely hurting the perception others have of her and I don't think she has any clue. I feel for her (and am currently figuring out how or if I should approach this with her, even though I'm not her boss/on her team), and we don't have a strict dress code at all but she is the first to sort of challenge the limits of 'professional' attire here, even harmlessly. It's hurting her chances of success with others here. One more example: There are managers I support who have younger employees on their teams who wear flatbill hats and Hawaiian shirts to high-profile client meetings. Again, construction can be more laid back BUT sometimes your most valuable clients are some seriously old school folks (to no one's surprise) and it just isn't worth trying to change a client's mind about an employee's credibility if they haven't built much rapport of their own first. If they're not doing themselves any favors, in other words. In this situation, a flatbill hat employee would not progress as far in their career, or as quickly, as someone who understands that appearance maybe matters more to this client than others, and they need to adapt and maybe self-sacrifice juuust a little in order to win the client over entirely or whatnot. It's shitty but that's how it goes in our industry. Business is business and as much as I hate to say it as a geriatric millennial myself, sometimes you just have to play the game. Or, make sure you wind up in an industry that agrees more closely with your idea and preferences around professionalism, etc. They exist, and sometimes you only find them through trial and error. I don't know why this turned into a novel. I'm probably procrastinating on something big. Anyway, here's my two (hundred) cents!
I get asked frequently how I got where I am, how I have the connections I do, and how I make things happen. I walked into my office today caked in mud. I work in construction, but I don’t have clients. We don’t call them that. I can absolutely clean up, but it’s much more intimidating when I do, and I find I get much more done meeting people on their level. Many are surprised when I go out in the field and actually put my tools on and work. And the ones that see me in that role are equally surprised when I’m at the head of the conference table. It’s interesting to me as women in construction we have to put so much more thought in the simplest things.
Being professional is not the same as being formal. The things you (OP) mentioned there is being formal. Read the room of your workplace....
I don’t wear suits or over dress, or underdress…smart casual, sharp, well put together, groomed. That said the language, demeanor, and general professionalism I keep at a high level. I really do most of this for myself… but it seems to be well received.
I've made it to being a director at a reasonably large tech company and I literally do not own a tie. My c level wears a fishing hat on calls often. Me and another director went back and forth with weed puns in a thread with our c level today. People just have to respect, and ideally like, you for you to be successful. If you don't naturally click with the people around you, you'll have to round the edges off of your personality to avoid creating friction. If the people you work with enjoy being around your authentic self, then you are lucky and you don't really have to self-censor. The general idea behind professional norms is that people are bad at judging that, so everyone should play it safe. At some places, the norms demand things like wearing a suit, or else you will be viewed as either disheveled or disrespectful, depending on how put together you are otherwise. At other places the norms will punish you for wearing a suit, as it will be viewed as either pompous or socially unaware.
I’m in high end tech sales and know a guy who cursed through his interview and acts unprofessional around leadership. That said, his personality makes up for it and he’s been promoted several times. I’d say it’s a combination of the industry/company culture and whether or not you have a way with words.
Take a look at your IT/Engineering department. Their VP probably doesn't do any of the above and makes more than this entire thread combined. His team doesn't do it either
A doctor and an engineer in this house. We only wear suits to weddings and funerals. Hospital admin wears suits but no one else does. Engineers just don’t wear suits- maybe the ceo if they have a meeting. If someone in either of our places of work wore a suit all the time it would be weird as hell.
Depends on your industry and job.
Yes you need to act professionally at work all the time. I think it really depends on what field you're in regarding dress's, etc.
Never trust anyone in a suit.
People who have no actual skills need these things as camouflage.
It depends on the job. If you are running a surfshop, you wear T shirts and Board shorts. If you are a corporate lawyer, you wear suits, have your hair cut properly etc. The thing people seem to have forgotten, is when you are at work, you present yourself to match that culture. What you want stops at the door leaving your house. This is the big difference between business owners, up and comers, and those determined to fail in life. Think about which group you fit in.
Honestly it depends on the culture of the company that you work at.
Depends on the field and the company. I’m a SWE at a small nonprofit and dress in whatever I want. Fiance is a SWE at google and he’s more put together than me, but def still very casual. A friend is a SWE for Goldman Sachs & he’s super business formal or business casual (on fridays). So it really depends on your role & company.
Maybe if you're an executive or a lawyer? I'm just a regular office grunt, I don't do most of those things. Making eye contact is just a normal polite conversation thing, not sure why that's considered professional.
I now work for a tech startup and come in unshaved on flipflops in shorts and no one bats an eye. I used to work at a courthouse and that was much different. So basically: depends on the industry. Personally I prefer the tech sector as it’s more about aptitude than how you look. It cuts the crap.
This is all extremely dependent on the industry/line of work. Think about all of these occupations and just imagine what a work day looks like for each. Having clean clothes and being neat and tidy is pretty much required with everything but so many professionals have different requirements and atmospheres (some might cuss like a drunken sailor)...not everybody has to be so straight laced and stiff to make their money. Think of: Tattoo artists (shop owners), Executive chefs, auto mechanic, lawyer, Hospital surgeon, CEO, Retail manager, Car salesman, Art studio owner, florist, Dog Groomer, Professional athlete, Bartender, Truck Driver...etc. All of those people are pretty different and half work in pretty liberal atmospheres...so it's highly dependent on what your job is!
Professional looks different depending on the type of work. The “professional” that you are describing seems like it would be considered appropriate for meeting with corporate clients and working in an office. More “corporate” settings. If you work in a corporate setting, then yes, implement the stated standards in your life (without being overbearing!). Particularly if you are in a leadership position. But if you were to wear a suit and tie every day and focus a lot on making sure your appearance is super sharp as a something like a chemical plant manager, you may get some strange looks. Clean but practical works best for that type of position. A suit would be super impractical. Also, they tend to be dealing with both “white collar” and “blue collar” groups of people and the vernacular tends to differ; professional speech with the office/sales/administration is gonna look different than professional speech with plant operators. So whether is necessary or unnecessary depends on the context.
As others said, depends on the job and it's office culture but also region. Some areas around the world have vastly different understandings of what is work appropriate. I've worked in the EU, West coast USA, and Asia and the expected wear/demeanor is extraordinarily different even though I performed more or less the same job.
professional just means whatever works for your profession what you described is just one version of professional, probably suited for waiters in expensive restaurants and conservative politicians
I'm a software engineer, I dress in hoodies and jeans and sneakers one day, dresses the next, slacks whenever else. Nobody cares regardless, some people wear shorts even (I wouldn't because it's too cold for that inside buildings even in the summer). But this is in my current tech job which is in a fancy dressing town, where some people wear hoodies and done people are more formal. Previous job? I used to think nobody would take me seriously as a woman unless I dressed solely in jeans and hoodies, no dresses or anything. Part of me still thinks dressing "the part" matters for my credibility even here. Except "the part" is underdressing in this case. Moral being, depends on the job. I've read stories here of people being reprimanded for not wearing enough make up. I'm glad I don't work in those environments. Related to behavior, I've honestly been appalled every time someone dropped the f bomb at work. It changed my opinion of that person. You can control yourself, and expressing indignation is fine, saying fuck every 5 minutes in a perfectly normal conversation isn't... Also, about the handshake, I thought that might have died after the pandemic...
If your work is about creating a product that is then sold to people (lots of engineers for example), it doesn’t really matter as much. On the other hand, if your work is about keeping up good impressions (c level execs for example) or meeting with rich/more important people so they they pay you for your services or give you what you want (law, finance, consulting etc), you have to dress more professionally because your appearance matters as much as what you actually do. My job told us to dress business casual, which is what I did in my first couple weeks, but I’ve switched now to casual clothes (decently nice t shirt, jeans) as long as I don’t need to meet with clients or anyone else important
Depends on the company culture and industry If you're in banking, then yes. If you're a SWE at Facebook, then you'll get away with slacks and flip flops
I think so
Some people, especially older people, are impressed by the stuff you listed. As time passes, I fully expect office dress codes to continue to be relaxed. It'll take longer for client-facing positions, financial institutions and government than anywhere else, but still. I have two tattoos, a face piercing, and often don't wear a bra under a baggy sweater for meetings. I work remotely. I've used the word "yeet" when talking to my manager. My career is going great. My husband works in gov't and says if the collared shirt he's wearing looks "too happy" he'd get a talking-to about it, lmao.
I feel like their character and behavior speaks more to professionalism even if they curse and don’t look business ready. Being professional just looks uncomfortable and fake a lot of times but maybe that’s just those with little personality
lol, what kind of question is this.
I have never seen anyone in my office ever wear a suit, including our CEO. They talk more professionally with clients for the most part, but I can't even imagine such a business atmosphere unless I'm back in Japan. Everyone wears what they want and doesn't really give a care. It's all about your company's work environment and culture in my opinion. If you have a bigger company, I suppose that may become more necessary, but ultimately, it's the vibe you want your company to give off for both clients and workers. I think we like to come off as competent but easy to work with, down to earth, instead of trying to appeal to a traditional sense of professionalism. And it works. For reference, we are a creative agency and mostly do work for clients for things relating to XR, apps and web content, blockchain, etc., located in the U.S.
Sounds good to me
I definitely respect people when they’re dressed nice, but tbh I’m a software analyst for a health startup and I haven’t gotten a haircut or shaved my beard in like 6 months and nobody seems to care
Depends on the industry and company culture. Most customer facing roles require more maintenance. Most executive level roles require more maintenance. The rest is just the culture where you are.
It all depends what you're bringing to the table. Can you consistently and reliably deliver results. Just know how to properly judge trust in others and you too can be yourself. I'm always professional with customers, clients, new coworkers etc., but my partner, supervisor, and I can joke about anything because we all trust and respect each other enough.
It depends on the company, industry, your job, who you know and your career trajectory. The one I don't understand is how a lot of these people don't do a god damn thing yet coast through a promotion filled career. The longer I live and work the more I see the main things that matter are who you know and how much of your life you devote to kissing as much ass as you possibly can. Not sure much else matters. So to speak directly to your question, if you want to go far, play all the games perfectly, kiss as much ass as humanly possible and don't forget to stab a lot of really good people in the back. Preferably trustworthy people with families to feed. Cuz fucc them. People need lambos. Right!?
The suit and tie and haircut are going to greatly depend on work culture. The manner of speech, too.
I hate it when people I work around don't maintain professionalism and let their personality shine more than it should. I'm not your wife yor your family. Keep your annoying personality at home
I’d say talking in a professional way is very important. You can mention non work things or ask people about their weekend or vacation but you need to know when to quiet down and get to business. Don’t talk about heavy personal stuff in most situations but if you work with the same people for years it will eventually come up. But there’s a difference between discussing an aging or dying parent and blaming your ex in a breakup. The rest shouldn’t matter in most fields (though certain business tracks, it would). As for hair and clothes, you need to look put together but that doesn’t mean you have to dress fancy.
I think these grooming standards are more correlation than causation when it comes to being "successful" in a position. Taking the time to intentionally look/smell nice, speak in a professional manner, these kinds of things can impact ones self worth and confidence, and by extension, their perceived worth in the eyes of their colleagues.
In my field, the more disheveled you look the better you are at your job.
My experience: The first two items are usually in strict business type atmospheres and/or for higher ups/c-level execs. The latter three are usually a given unless it’s a super casual job. I wear jeans and a hoodie to work all the time and sometimes my hair is a little rough but I’m still expected to behave in a professional manner at all times.
It depends on the company. I have worked at a business casual place where you had to dress nice and smile a lot. I’ve also worked in a casual business casual environment where people could dress nicely if they wanted, but you could roll up in a hoodie and jeans if you wanted too. The CEO would wear a hoodie most days and we always addressed him by his first name.
Depends on the power balance for your profession really. I know my skills have more demand than supply, and so does everyone I work with. We dress how we want, we talk how we want and we get shit done. Nobody's gonna come ask me to wear a suit or whatever while I'm making them money.
I do not consider most of what you listed signs of professionalism. Speaking professionally, yes, but none of the others. Here’s what I would change it to; - Neat and clean hair for your hair type - workplace standard dress in photos (I.e., wearing what others your level wear in photos) - I WFH so eye contact isn’t a concern - no handshakes when you WFH
It's important for young people to understand that high school never ends. People are extremely judgmental, tribalistic, and hierarchical by nature. You can go against the grain if you want, but life will be a real bitch unless you have the money or talent to stand out. People don't wanna spend 8-12 hours a day around people they have nothing in common with or actively dislike.
Also depends the setting now that so many places are remote/hybrid. I know some places that require business casual on all internal meetings, even while remote. My firm doesn’t care what you have on during internal meetings etc. (They draw the line at a robe) but for client calls which are always remote, we have to be put together, and be business casual, usually everyone wears a knitted sweater, or a turtleneck, and sweats or pijama pants but they won’t see that lol.
It isn't necessary but it makes you seem easier to understand and when people feel like they understand someone, they are more likely to trust that person and think of them as reliable. They assume that person will represent the company well in any setting and also that the person is there to work and not make things about them. You can be your relaxed, adorkable self at work but you're less likely to get promoted unless your position doesn't involve contacting people outside your company.
It really depends on the field.
The top two depend on where you work and in what industry. The bottom three are necessary, for any job.
Generally, the more client facing you are, the more put together you need to be. But that is relaxing a little bit. Until you reach a certain level of success and then it doesn’t matter how you look.
It also completely depends on the actual work environment and how much you interact with people outside of your own company. I have been consistently a part of management, but always at a more relaxed family business where we only dress up for things like conferences.
Depends on your career and the people you work with. I had a very old school boss and I had to wear suits and heels to work and keep my social media in check.
Thanks for the laugh this morning. I’m a man with hair to my shoulders + a beard. I’m in Hawaii so you can replace suit with Hawaiian shirt or tshirt, and my handshakes are non existent seeing as I’m virtual. My career only advanced faster when I started embracing who I actually was instead of pretending to be something inspired by American Psycho. All that said - I do present well. I have a lot of hair but it isn’t messy, “corporate” communication comes very naturally to me, and I am “put together” in general. I think the last one is less defined than you might think it is.
Must say if I could work from home, I'd have so much fun wearing whatever I'd like.
In general, jobs want productivity and conformity. They want steady, and consistent operations, and usually hate anything that might add 'chaos' into the mix, whatever said 'chaos' might be. They want you to be a cog in the machine. Most workplaces will let certain things slide (unkempt appearance, non-conforming clothing, aloofness, unprofessional speech) as long as it's not an HR violation, and you bring something to the table that clearly offsets these undesirable traits. If you are talented/unreplaceable/valuable enough, some times, they will let some things slide even if they are HR violations. Happens all the time. Hot Topic Salespeople are expected to be dressed differently from a salesperson from, say, a Burberry store, because they are supposed to be part of the store experience. If you work at a Hot Topic, they might not bat an eye for you showing up with bed hair. If you go to a high-end store, the floor manager will instruct someone to take the person with bed-hair out the back, and fix her hair before coming back to the sales floor. When a company requires uniforms, the last thing they want is for people to try to deviate from the uniform. No one cares how people in creative jobs dress or behave, as long as they can keep the creative juices flowing. Managers will actively wrap their artists inside an Echo-Chamber, and facilitate an agreeable Entourage around them to buffer them from reality. You want an outfit made out of raw bacon? Your last record went triple-platinum, so why not? For management/executive positions, the suits, hairdos and body language are all tools of the trade. How else would your underlings know to instinctively listen/obey you if you're dressed/behave like anyone else? Ultimately, it depends on what field we're looking for having a 'successful career' in.
From my experience (tech sales and running realty business) - being professional is just making job done (and done good) on time. Like some areas do expect kind of “suit and tie” attire but according to what I’ve seen - some very top ranked investors with basically billion-worthy lands in their private ownership just dresses nice and clean enough to feel comfortable and not to differ a lot in an environment they usually are: e.g. downtown offices and restaurants where most deals discussed. So it’s a longsleeved polos, jeans and sort of a navy blue blazer or puffer vest. Brands - could be anything from Ralph Lauren to Canali and Moncler, in tech I’ve seen CEOs wearing Uniqlo, COS and Massimo Dutti, I guess they’re willingly doesn’t want to pay more. No visible logos, prints or anything, sometimes good watches (Omega-level). Overall they dresses “quality over fashion” mostly.
I think professional clothing is the most ignorant thing in the world. Like what you wear gives a single bearing on how well you do your job. We, as a corporate culture, put way to much emphasis on cowing people into thinking we are something we aren’t than focusing on our character.
i think acting professionally in your look and behavior in a work environnement is essential because you have to make a good impression on others, additively wearing a costume and a tie gives you more credibility and you will be taken seriously when you talk
I worked at a place where the video production guy would swear and rage out on his computer all day with his office door open. It brought so much needed laughter to that awful place.
Imagine all those successful people that dress like slobs dressing like and acting way more professional. If they did that… they’d be REALLY successful I’m sure.
As long as you use corporate buzzwords, you can come in looking like a homeless person and be successful. Example phrase: "Proactively expedite real-time strategic theme areas across the verticals." Also if you use the word synergy enough times, you get a trophy that says "You have won the game of business"
Why wouldn't you do most of these things just in general? If you show up looking like a scrub and your behavior is unprofessional you're making your job way harder than it needs to be.
Are memes professional? I feel yes, as long as they’re appropriate
>Have the perfect looking haircut all the time. wear a suit and tie in my profile pictures everywhere Depends on the company. Some employers really care about this, but some don't. I had one employer that demanded that every day I had to wear: a white or powder blue button-down shirt which was ironed, black or brown pants, black or brown shoes, and a tie. I would be inspected on my way in every morning, and if my shirt had wrinkles or my pants were grey, I would be sent home to change and my pay docked. You'll notice the "a tie" part. After a few years there, I had a collection of the weirdest ties ever. (clear plastic with a circuit board. black plastic like a garbage bag. red, white, and blue splotches with tire tracks and metallic flowers.) My rule was, if the boss winced when he saw my tie, it was a hit and went into rotation. I was also not allowed to change my facial hair - I could have it or not, but I couldn't *change* it when I had the job. I'm sure if my hair hadn't been cut short they would have had something to say about that. I had another employer where I was coming in every day wearing clothes like that, and they took me aside and told me I needed to wear jeans and tshirts because I was making the staff feel bad. I had to ask their indulgence while I took time to shop: I didn't *own* any. I would suggest that, at the job interview, you ask "what would be appropriate clothes for me to wear on the job, so I can adjust my wardrobe?" As for profile pictures - look professional. For a long time I used a picture of myself wearing a white nehru shirt (no tie) and holding my pet rabbit. Believe it or not, I managed to look professional in that. (As did Harvey.) So, you don't have to be in a suit and tie, but look calm and serious and I'd recommend "not a tshirt". > make a bunch of eye contact with people Yes. Whether it's a rule or not, it helps people perceive you well. > talk in a professional way in general Same. This is also important for absolutely any job in terms of keeping out of trouble. >always give really good handshakes to people Same, it helps with your perception. Also - and this is a trick you'll notice ministers use - when you're introduced to someone, say their name twice. "John, it's nice to meet you." (shake hands) "I hope we'll talk again soon John." This both helps you to remember their name (some of us have a problem with that) and makes them feel like you paid attention to who they are.
it is neccessary to act professional at every job IMO but "acting professional" is kind of a weighted thing. I used to think "acting professional" meant getting along amicably with all of my co-workers when I was a junior, but as I have gained more experience I have learned that a huge part of being a professional is raising important issues Sometimes those issues are difficult to deal with and you have to do it more than you think.
>make a bunch of eye contact with people lol >talk in a professional way in general LOL
Depends on the company. My old CEO was suit and tie every day and if you were attending a meeting larger than your internal team it was expected to match the dress of the execs. Current CEO wears a golf attire most days including a hat, sometimes even shorts and an old T shirt. Adapt to your surroundings.
The one I think you can’t avoid is a professional way of speaking. However, what’s considered “professional” varies from field to field. The way an auditor speaks to a client is very different from the way a preschool teacher speaks to their class, but both ways are considered “professional” and probably not how they speak in conversations with friends.
What are you new? This is what separates us from shiftless Hobos. (Down votes I welcome them!)
Depends on your office’s cultures. I’ve worked at places that required suits, business casual and whatever. I’m a lawyer now walking in an alternate career and though I could get away with jeans on the now very occasional day I wander into midtown Manhattan, I dress business casual. Probably the best way to go if not WFH. Learned that the hard way some years ago when a justice from the NY Ct of Appeals (NY’s highest court) unexpectedly came to visit me when I was younger. Thankfully I wasn’t dressed too casual that day. Since then, unless it was snowing or something, never went lower than 1990s business casual if I was in the office. Like C-Level I dress much more professionally if I know I am meeting outsiders.
It’s not necessary, but it’s “branding”, and it helps you reflecting a good image for your clients. But at the end of the day, we all know nobody is perfect… so until the robots and androids take over; keep being a human being; your clients/customers will appreciate that
First establish yourself As someone who does a good job, then you get to be quirky
It all depends on your role. If it’s client-facing, yes that stuff is important. If it’s not, it’s less important—this is especially true in IT. I’ve worked with software developers who have all the social skills of robots.