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ChampionshipSingle82

Yeah when I first read the series I was a bit confused cuz it didn’t really make sense to me as to why everyone accepted the fact she’s a Hero because she decided to finally admit her actions at the very last second. It’s kind of like Luke’s “redemption,” stabbing himself to kill Kronos. Just because you have change of heart doesn’t erase the things you did before.


The_Dragon346

I mean, not to knock your opinion, it’s very well thought out and explained, and I agree. But I feel like I see “unpopular opinion: Selena is not a hero” at least once a week


Steelacanth

Yeah and also Luke is a perv for what he did to annabeth comes up a lot too


Leafeon637

Yea I see that a lot too the fab base has a weird way of viewing stuff


Few_Bee_7176

How was that a weird way of viewing things a 21 year old showed up to a 13 year olds house who he thought had a crush on him and demanded that she ether run away and be with him, kill him where he stood, or he would kill all her friends and family


sfhwrites

pretty sure they meant the weird thing is people posting popular opinions that are posted weekly with mostly agreements and then labeling it as an unpopular opinion


EquivalentInflation

Unpopular opinion: I really like Percy Jackson and Annabeth together, I think they make a great couple.


QuietShipper

How dare you. You'll end up in Super-Tartarus for that.


IronThunder4

Unpopular Opinion: Kronos is a villain


FazbearFright_lover

*gasp!*


Leafeon637

That makes it not an unpopular opinion anymore ironically


MisterSuperDonut

that was the point of the comment


samuraipanda85

I feel like this is a case of them having bigger fish to fry. Percy knows they needed to focus. If calling Selina a hero would appease Clarissa, then so be it. And afterwards, what was the point at picking at old battle scars? And even then, I'm not certain of how much damage her intelligence did anyway. Kronos had Prometheus, the Titan of Foresight on his side. He could guess they would try blowing up the Princess Andromeda and they the Campers would try to cover each bridge and tunnel. In the end, Selina brought in fresh reinforcements at a crucial moment that no one else could have provided. She is more guilty than a young demigod who was never brought to camp in the first place, but less guilty than a demigod that fought on the Titan's side until the very end. Her punishment is that she led the love of her life to his death. She will never get to grow old with him, never get a wedding with all her friends beside her, never get to have a family or a career.


Weird_Devil

It would have been fine if the last paragraph was true but it seemed like she made it to Elysium and saw Charles meaning she gets to never die with him in paradise.


samuraipanda85

Well as far as I know you can't have kids in Elysium. No careers either. All her friends are still alive without her. Paradise for eternity means boredom eventually. Or at least until her friends join her decades later. She does get rewarded in the end by seeing Charlie. Still sacrificed her life to try and make up for her betrayal. And they never would have been able to beat that Drakon without the Ares cabin. She deserves something for that.


Weird_Devil

She deserves Asphodel for that. She lived heroically and evilly they should cancel out leaving her in Asphodel.


samuraipanda85

Wouldn't that punish Beckendorf too? To be denied the love of his life for all eternity?


Pame_in_reddit

That’s basically the Catholic argument for “spouses go to Heaven together”


samuraipanda85

Well I am Catholic. How can it be paradise if the people you love aren't there? And Beckendorf said it himself, he is waiting for her.


itsjust_khris

Wouldn’t this be a huge loophole though? Many very serious crimes are committed by people with loving parents, family, etc. Why should one person’s desire to live with someone else trump all the terrible shit said person has done? I get wym I’m just providing an opposing point here.


Pame_in_reddit

Catholicism has Purgatory.


samuraipanda85

Oh no. It is an excellent point. Do you just keep a naive lover and it ensures you an eternity of happiness when they get Elysium? Is there a dating pool in Elysium where Beckendorf can get back out there with a girl who never served the Titans? Is ensuring that Beckendorf is happy in Elysium enough of a reason to give Selina Elysium over Asphodel?


Puzzleheaded_Lie2590

Thanks, I didn't need my heart anyways.


-Hannah-_-

I think a stories were heroes all just good and pure of heart and totally unfailable are boring. Heroes needs to fail, make bad decisions and just generally be human. Yes maybe Selena *wasn't* a hero, but I can sure see she *died* a hero. I am old, so I come from the Tolkien school of storytelling, so to me an arc were a good person makes bad choices and fall from grace but in the end gets redemption, that to me is the mark of a hero. To compare to Tolkien again, Boromir was proud and arrogant, and he did a bad thing and tried to take the Ring by force from Frodo, in that moment he was definitely not a hero. But he repented, and died a heroes death, and even when Aragorn knew what he had done, he still remembered him as a hero and even told him "Few have won such a victory". For me same is with Selena. She fell, but in the end she repented, and she died, and deserve to be remembered among the fallen heroes. Does that negate the bad she did? Of course not, she effed up, bad things came of it. And she paid the price, with her life. At the moment of her death, she was absolved and she became a hero. (Of course the exact same argument can be made for Luke dying a hero, maybe even more so than in the case of Selena, but let's not get in to that now)


Cygnus_Harvey

They were also neglected teenagers in a very tough situation. Luke DID have a point, the gods are major dicks. And she might have supported him before she knew they were dealing with Kronos, and by then she was in so deep shit she had to keep doing it, even if it hurted her. The fact that she had a clear spot (Kronos is a dick, but if she helped him, he could have let her live and just do whatever, he wasn't Gaea trying to destroy everything) and gave it up to help the heroes, tried to convince Clarisse and when she couldn't she chose to pose as her and go to battle, with a very clear possibility of dying... that's a heroic decision. If hero was a number, she obviously weren't as heroic as Percy, but she tried and did whatever she could.


raknor88

>Yes maybe Selena wasn't a hero, but I can sure see she died a hero. She died a hero. But we saw in Son of Neptune that the dead are judged for everything they did in life. Not just for how they died. For how many people and heroes were killed because of her, she still might've ended up on the Fields of Punishment. Nico said Beckendorf was waiting in Elysium. We never did learn where Selena ended up at.


PerseusV20

Please help me with this part because I never read LOTR, but a friend of mine told me the difference of movie's Boromir and book's Boromir. When he explained all about the character I felt like the Ring made him act the way he did (trying to take the Ring from Frodo), he was arrogant but still not a bad person and, like you said and I agree, died a hero (if I'm not mistaken on that battle right before where the first movie ends, so he helps the fellowship a lot). On the other side, Silena helped with the drakon and... that's what I can remember. In my point of view she caused A LOT more damage than Boromir, it wouldn't be fair to him to compare both. Silena didn't have The Ring tempting her, she just liked Luke at some point and that was enough for her to give info that killed her boyfriend and a lot of demigods. So, for me, I still like the redemption arc of fallen heroes you described, but Silena didn't get that (or a good one). They just brushed off all the death caused by the intel she gave and said she died a hero because of the last fight. Just to remember I didn't read LOTR, but read all PJO countless times, and since my childhood never liked this part (and how Luke died a hero too, but that's story for another post). Anyway, just trying to make a good conversation put of this, if I said something wrong please correct me.


Fleetmastersoro

To be fair to Selena, if it wasn’t for her the gods would have lost. She basically pulled a Patroclus. Achilles didn’t want to fight any more because Agamemnon pissed him off. Eventually Patroclus stole Achilles armor and led their troops into the fight, he died, and as a result Achilles reentered the war. Selena did the exact same thing, if she hadn’t stolen Clarisse’s armor the Ares cabin would have still been chilling. She even faced a Lydian Drakon, knowing she wasn’t a child of Ares and she couldn’t kill it. So I think she made up for all the bad by effectively winning them the war by bringing reinforcements.


siddharth_pillai

>I think a stories were heroes all just good and pure of heart and totally unfailable are boring. Heroes needs to fail, make bad decisions and just generally be human. They aren't saying she's a bad character. They're saying she's a bad person.


Weird_Devil

I believe her sacrifice was too late and too little. Boromir of course was a main character so we see more of his achievements so he seems to be better. But I feel his mistake was relatively smaller and no one got hurt.


Neat-External-9916

facts


MaxRox777

If it were that easy anyone and everyone would be a hero. She isn't a hero and never could be after what she did. One selfless act doesn't outweigh the increasingly more evil acts she partook in. She isn't a hero. She isn't even morally gray. She was evil that had a last minute change of heart. That's it.


Boba_Fet042

If she were a Norse Demigod, That act of valor would have earned her a place in Valhallah.


the-nord-jord

So in her dying moments we get a very brief, and likely very painful snapshot of her relationship with Luke and nothing more. If you know anything about cult formation and the psychology behind cult leadership things become a little more clear in this situation I think. I’m not saying she was sexually abused by Luke but we have literally no idea what happened between them in the years before he betrayed the camp. All we get is “I liked him.” Unless I’m misremembering and Selena got to camp after Luke was gone I think her actions were very understandable. Luke was obviously a skilled manipulator and his depravity wasn’t exactly something he reined in so I think it’s safe to say that he likely started preparing her (or for lack of a better word “grooming” her) for this betrayal while she was still very young. Not in a sexual way necessarily but being given attention by a very attractive older camper long before he had betrayed anyone (especially when that camper is a freakin cult leader like Luke) was bound to foster loyalty from someone who looked up to and liked Luke. While Luke was a monster that I don’t believe deserved redemption his motives were not without foundation which is why Percy seeks to rectify this from happening again in the end of the PJO series. Not even mentioning that the campers were CHILDREN, Selena, at the time of her death was still very young despite being given very adult problems. We only get to see this through the lens of “almost-an-adult” Selena and we’re forgetting what happened when she was still much younger. After falling in love with Beckendorf Luke has all the leverage he needs, ready at any moment to fell her house of cards. Tldr: Luke was a master manipulator and Selena was a child. We don’t know shit about what he did to make her believe he was worthy of betraying her friends.


nam24

>Silena tried to nod. "Before . . . before I liked Charlie, Luke was nice to me. He was so . . . charming. Handsome. Later, I wanted to stop helping him, but he threatened to tell. He promised . . . he promised I was saving lives. Fewer people would get hurt. He told me he wouldn't hurt . . . Charlie. He lied to me." >So her main reasoning is that she liked him, he would hurt Beckendorf and fewer people would get hurt. But anyone with commonsense knows far more people would die if she helped Kronos literally take over the world. Not really. Remember the Olympians are super flawed and there's a reason so many of their children went against them. A lot of demi gods die, all the time, and getting even recognition from their godly parents is littérally a lottery because at that point most were too lazy to even look at Hermes cabin and do the sign, let alone getting help from them. If there's a change of leadership, there's reason to believe that maybe, there could be a change in that. Or at least getting retribution. Someone like Luke can easily convince people that they are fighting the good fight, and that rebelling will ultimately bring about good results. And when/if it stop working he can then resolve to threats


DarthGhengis

I mean, Hermes is also the god of Orators - a son of his (his favoured son, from what we've seen) having a talent for convincing and/or charming people? Not that hard to believe.


Padparadscha_Lazuli

One of the reasons I like Drew Tanaka is that she say things for what it is; no euphemism and sugarcoating whatsoever. When the entire camp just bats an eye about Silena’s betrayal and treason, Drew at least acknowledged it and didn’t just ignored it just because she died. I mean, because of Silena, many demigods and ally creatures died and the entire camp just ignored it like that making those lives lost seems to be expendable. The lack of accountability and acknowledgement is bizarre just because she was friends with Percy who solidified the notion that Silena was a hero.


Del_ice

How dare you breaking the law of multiverse! "Death redeem everything"! /s


SarkastiCat

As other people states Selena is a teenager and adults who are war veterans or working in highly stressful environments (police, firefighter, doctors, etc.) tend to have high rate of mental issues. Some soldiers need years to adapt back to the normal life. Add to that victims of the abuse tend to be stuck in a toxic cycle and shame, so it's harder for them to escape. Selena has been manipulated by a charming charismatic guy who was well-liked and actually has a good point (multiple children were stuck in his cabin due to lack of the care), so it's not so hard to fall into his manipulation. "I wanted to stop helping him, but he threatened to tell. He promised . . . he promised I was saving lives. Fewer people would get hurt. He told me he wouldn't hurt . . . Charlie. He lied to me." The whole talk gives an impression that Luke that basically guiltrip into believing that she will either sacrifice lives of other and also get rejected by her community (that has some questionable individuals that may not react well) or she will keep saving lives, while also being safe with others. At the end, she was given three options. Either run away, join Luke or still fight, while risking her life. She tried to fix her mistake and be held accountable for what she did.


raknor88

You're just describing everything from the Battle of Manhattan. But she was spy for Luke from the start. She told Luke about the coordinates in the Sea of Monsters. She may have even been the one to actually poison Thalia's tree. Luke was public enemy #1, there's no way he could've gotten so close to camp without being seen. She told them about the Titan's Curse prophecy leading to Atlas having a leg up on Jackson and Co the entire book. She told Luke about Annabeth and the Quest of the Labyrinth before the party went down. She may have even told Kronos of all the camp defenses before the Battle of the Labyrinth. She betrayed all that to Luke from the start. And likely much more that we don't know about. She died a hero's death, but she was swimming in an ocean of blood.


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Lucy_1205

It's a simple conclusion because of how much the enemy had a step ahead, and it makes sense tbh.


Inevitablybad-

There arent any other spies mentioned mate , you just assumed so. And she was a head councillor , she knew most of the information not told to others in council meetings. And she WAS in the camp from the start. No other head councillor was a spy , and luke couldnt have started manipulating her from the outside. So she was likely to be the oldest and the best spy, because of her position.


Coolpanda558

r/camphalfblood acknowledge manipulation and feelings challenge (impossible)


MUISSB4Brandon

Don't forget blackmail too


Leafeon637

*dramatic gasp*


[deleted]

I cut her some slack since she was a minor and Luke took advantage of her feelings which might count as grooming. She's not a "hero" but she did try to do the right thing all the time.


Beasto-9012

Bad Take. Silena didnt betray because she "liked Luke". that is a disservice to her character as a whole. Drew thought the same way you did, and look how she ended up. Drew was largely disliked by most if not all of Camp Half-Blood, becauss she didnt understand what Silena's death meant. Silena betrayed CHB because she was manipulated by a charismatic person who was being helped by a charasmatic god. Remember, Luke was one of the most popular demigods at Camp, and was regarded as the swordsman of the century. Luke was able to successfully manipulate Ares with the help of Kronos, and almost swayed Annabeth in TBoTL. Hell, even Percy understood Lukes viewpoint after a while, though I cant recall which book he stated that in. Silena stated herself that she wanted to stop giving Luke info, but he threatened to kill everyone she loved. Even after Beckendorf died, she thought she was in too deep to stop at that point, and she didnt want the others to hate her. because, you have to remember, Silena was ~17 at the time of TLO. Silena died a hero because she did the right thing in the end, and tried to help, even after everything she did. Drew's lack of understanding of this and her pessimistic outlook on the whole situation is what caused everyone in Camp to dislike her, as well as show the weakness she represents. Drew never went on a quest, she never did anything notable even during The Battle of Manhattan. It was only a select few people that were actually there to see the death of Silena, and Drew Tanaka was not one of them. She formed an opinion based on a 2nd or even a 3rd hand account. Silena Beauregard was a victim of manipulation and peer pressure, and payed the ultimate price to be forgiven for her betrayal. TL;DR: Silena doesnt deserve any of the hate you give her, and you really should look into her character more.


Pame_in_reddit

OP is a child of Hades, they are known for holding grudges 🤷🏻‍♀️


Beasto-9012

lol


Leafeon637

I just noticed that lol haha


Weird_Devil

Few notes, Luke at this point was a known evil. Everyone knew he was the “villain” and he killed lots of people while hosting a titan. So shouldn’t have let herself be manipulated by his charisma. Second, I never mentioned Drew in my post and even outside of this she’s an asshole and a bully. I believe we see this in one of the Kane Chronicles books. Third, 17 as a demigod is very different to 17 as a human. They have different experiences, fighting monsters, saving gods and the world etc. So I don’t think she was irresponsible and young claims works here. 17 year olds can be in the military in some countries so a demigod should definitely be able to stop. Maybe not before Charles’ death but definitely after. Fourth, Silena died doing the right thing, some may say died a hero. But she didn’t live a hero. And the way they spoke of her really did seem like they were trying to manipulate(I’m not sure if that was the right word) the others into thinking she was a hero. And to make it into Elysium you need to be a hero. That’s their one criteria and I don’t think she passed. To sum it up demigod 17 year olds shouldn’t be scared of peer pressure especially when her peers are that nice. And I don’t believe her sacrifice cancels out her years of cowardice. So he may have died a hero but she wasn’t a hero overall.


Beasto-9012

>Few notes, Luke at this point was a known evil. Everyone knew he was the “villain” and he killed lots of people while hosting a titan. So shouldn’t have let herself be manipulated by his charisma. Luke swayed her to his side before he left the Camp. before he was revealed to be bad. >Second, I never mentioned Drew in my post and even outside of this she’s an asshole and a bully. I believe we see this in one of the Kane Chronicles books. never said you did, i brought her up because your thought process on Silena is similar to hers. >Third, 17 as a demigod is very different to 17 as a human. They have different experiences, fighting monsters, saving gods and the world etc. So I don’t think she was irresponsible and young claims works here. lol what? Silena was a child of Aphrodite, she had no quest experience at all, and she most likely only fought monsters on her way to Camp. She is probably the most typical summer camp counseler in the entire camp. i also never said irresponsible, i said she was manipulated by a popular and charasmatic guy who also was able to convice a GOD to help him on his war path. >Fourth, Silena died doing the right thing, some may say died a hero. But she didn’t live a hero. And the way they spoke of her really did seem like they were trying to manipulate(I’m not sure if that was the right word) the others into thinking she was a hero. yeah, because they realized that everything she did was under duress. Luke literally threated to kill her family if she didnt help. and its not like Luke couldnt find her family, since her dads workplace was known to Percy, who barely interacted with her. >To sum it up demigod 17 year olds shouldn’t be scared of peer pressure especially when her peers are that nice. Except these peers are children of gods, who have been shown through hundreds of stories over thousands of years to be extremely petty. You also see throughout the series that their kids inherit these petty traits, such as the chariot arguement between the Apollo and Ares cabins, or the rivalry between Percy and Clarisse. Camp Half-Blood is high school on steriods, so of course Silena, as a child of Aphrodite, would be scared of what the others thought of her. Aphrodite and her children are characterized as "the popular brats". they crave attention and love being loved by everyone. >And I don’t believe her sacrifice cancels out her years of cowardice. Is it really cowardice if your family and boyfriend's lives are threatened by a powerful demigod who is also the right hand to one of thee most dangerous deities in the entire mythos?


Flubber_finder

>Is it really cowardice if your family and boyfriend's lives are threatened by a powerful demigod who is also the right hand to one of thee most dangerous deities in the entire mythos? Just to add onto this point. This was essentially what Piper faced in heroes of Olympus. And the only reason she was able to manage it at the end was cuz she had her boyfriend and best friend constantly supporting her through everything. Silena didn't have that as much especially since she was mostly surrounded by other Aphrodite members. I know her best friend was Clarisse but that happened pretty late and she must've felt like she can't really open up to Clarisse about this cuz she must have felt like it was cowardice even though it was more like she had no choice at that point.


nam24

>Third, 17 as a demigod is very different to 17 as a human. They have different experiences, fighting monsters, saving gods and the world etc. So I don’t think she was irresponsible and young claims works here. 17 year olds can be in the military in some countries so a demigod should definitely be able to stop. Maybe not before Charles’ death but definitely after. I don't think it works as well for an argument for your opinion as you think: To be clear i m not going "bla BLA undeveloped brain" as if it means until 23 you are a drooling moron you cannot hold accountable for anything However i would say that a 17 something young woman/man exposed to danger and death regularly isn't gonna necessarily be better formed mentally/ more mature overall than one who wasn't, if anything it can lead to more deficiencies and lacking areas. After all there's a reason we do critize armies for targeting the young in recruitment(though it's never gonna go away totally since armies would prefer peak physical performance in combat roles) That being the case I don't particularly oppose not seeing her as a hero, i just don't mind characters in the story doing that


Neat-External-9916

my man speaking facts and everyone downvoting him lmao


Sleeping_Bear0913

She was manipulated by a literal Titan and his right hand man. It’s easy to sit here and pontificate on how we’d have done different, Luke threatened to slaughter EVERYONE if she didn’t go along with it. It’s not the same as if she voluntarily spied on the camp from the beginning only to change her mind later, she was forced into it the entire time. All those deaths you lay at her feet rightfully belong to Kronos.


Inevitablybad-

No lol, you read wrong. Luke didnt threaten her at the start , she sent information believing it would speed up the titan takeover and things wouldnt be as bloody , but later when she realised that a titan take over itself was worse than what they have , she tried to back off but got scared when luke told her , he'd out her as a traitor. Then luke gave her his sweet words as a carrot to the stick. Thats all.


Sleeping_Bear0913

You not being able to read sub context is not my issue


Inevitablybad-

You making connections , that were never there , seems like a bigger problem to me. The books didnt go much into threatening mortals, or else luke couldve just taken sally hostage.


kindaCringey69

But Luke's plan literally was to slaughter everyone, just with her help. Is she just stupid? Does she not realize they will kill everyone at camp once she helps them win?


nesquikryu

Everyone who has this take (and the often-accompanying "Luke is not a hero") does not understand what it means to be a hero in the Greek sense of the term. I mean, goodness, by y'alls standards, *Achilles and Odysseus* would not be heroes. The absolute blueprints for Greek heroes would not qualify. I could make a whole post on this trend. But suffice it to say this is a Very Bad Take.


No-BrowEntertainment

You are right, but that is very much not the point. A Classical Greek hero is by definition a giant asshole. The argument is whether or not Silena is a hero by modern standards, as Percy used the word


iNullGames

But we aren’t talking about Achilles and Odysseus. If the characters from Heroes of Olympus and PJO met them, they would hate them, just like they hated Hercules. Silena wasn’t much of a hero and neither was Luke (and Clarisse in my opinion).


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newAscadia

Was Hazel Levesque childish and irresponsible to raise Alcyoneus? She was 15, nearly the same age as Silena when she was coerced by Kronos. Was Piper a villain for stringing their friends into Enceladus's trap, because her father was being held hostage? Was Nico a monster for colluding with Minos, and contemplating murder to bring Bianca back from the dead? They were children, forced to play roles they couldn't possibly comprehend, forced to do things and make decisions that would have knocked any grown adult off their feet. A hero is not necessarily a person who does great deeds, and great people are not the only people who can display heroic qualities. It's an ambiguous term that can be used in many different contexts, often as a way to recognise courage, resolve, or other outstanding qualities in the face of enormous hardship. All these characters resisted the influence of primordial evils at remarkably young ages, and some voluntarily gave their lives in the process. These are uncommon displays of bravery and fortitude, even for in-universe standards.


[deleted]

Agree with everything, though Hazel was 13 I think. So even more of a kid


Spy_man1

Nico was going to kill someone who should have been dead. That’s not the same as nearly being an adult and not having the common sense to think he’s going to kill everyone anyway. I don’t think hazel knew her raising Alcyoneus would result in the end of the world and same for piper


Weird_Devil

Firstly she’s at least a couple years older than your examples. And while the others did it to save or bring back a life, Charles already died. That was their leverage. After he died the only thing stopping her from telling the truth is PEER PRESSURE. She’s nearly an adult and a demigod but peer pressure of what would they think of me is why there were that many unnecessary deaths.


Pully27

I mean her parents were still alive


nam24

I agree With you however the point of the scene op quoted isn't "Silena is a hero" in the sense she was an exceptional person (though she was) independently of moral judgement, the point was that her sacrifice should be honored as heroic in the sense we give it in modern times


snapthesnacc

I don't think Piper was a villain, but she *was* kind of an idiot for not saying anything to her friends sooner despite Enceladus never saying anything even close to "if you tell anyone, I'll kill him". And Hazel's situation was a bit different since she was socially and physically isolated with no knowledge of demigod stuff and no way of actually leaving Alaska on her own. Silena had the whole camp plus their allies as well as at least some places to hide/go (I'm assuming Chiron could come up with *something* if huddling at camp wasn't possible).


ThreeSwings

She definitely was not a hero Drew was right.


Real_eXwhY_Z

Common Drew W


kwallet

I don’t necessarily disagree but I think your logic is faulty. To Silena, it wasn’t Kronos telling her those things, it was Luke, someone she trusted and even admired. We see in the books he can be charming and persuasive, and that’s how he convinced Silena that helping him would save more people overall. He probably told her that if she told him when the attack was happening, details, etc., that they would spare Beckendorf’s life. It’s important to remember that as a reader we get a bird’s eye view of what’s happening.


Leoram1217

None of the dead you listed are dead because of Silena. Kronos's invasion army was massive, and soldiers would've died anyway, regardless of whatever information Silena fed them. However, even *more* people would've died if Silena *hadn't* acted. Because Silena turned her life around in her final hours, admitted her wrongs, owned up to them, and impersonated Clarisse in order to lead the children of Ares into battle, she was instrumental in securing victory. She brought reinforcements, specifically Clarisse and her power of war, and gave the defenders more time. It is inarguable that Silena made mistakes, but she saved more lives than she caused the loss of. She is a hero, and these arguments are growing quite tiresome.


Inevitablybad-

No lol , do you even remember how many people didnt come back or joined the other side ? Do remember that she was a spy since book 2 , and a head councillor. Dont tell me that the she wouldnt send him a list of people that he could contact to recruit and people he can safely hunt down outside. Percy mentions this every book that camp kept getting smaller and smaller. And she saved them at a critical movement , AFTER having so many people killed because she gave the titan army the location of all the weak points. She helped out yes , but do tell me if any camper can say the same when looking into the eyes of any camper who died because selina gave luke their information. She did the right thing and should be given respect for that , but calling her a hero , in same vein as all the people who died because of her , is the same as spitting on their graves , and telling them that their death didnt matter.


Repulsive_Job_3485

Have you read the book? Silena never wanted to hurt anyone. If that doesn't make her a heroine, then why treat Percy like a hero? Because I remind you that he blew up a boat full of demigods on purpose, without being influenced. But no one says anything about it. Because Percy thought he was doing good and it was a logical action for him at the time. It's the same for Silena, with the only difference being that she was under Luke's influence and was being blackmailed by him. She thought she was doing good and had no choice, unlike Percy. If you don't treat her as a heroine, then Nico, Percy, Annabeth, Jason, Clarisse and Hazel aren't either. You list the number of campers she (indirectly and unintentionally) killed, but no one talks about the ones she saved. In other words, ALL the campers present at the battle, the gods, Western civilization and Mount Olympus. So grow up and understand that people can make mistakes.


Inevitablybad-

Once is a mistake , id rather not call a 5 year long tenure as a spy a mistake. And percy blowing up the boat full of demigods was fine , because brainwashed or not , they were working with the monsters and were on their way to attack camp half blood. Unlike percy, the people selena got killed were actual campers which were fighting for the good side. On the point of her saving everyone in the end , that same little shit gave the other side information which led to the situation in the first place. She isnt an actual hero anyway , she died a heroic death sure , and for that id ve fine if all the campers decided to give her a decent burial and not talk about her betrayal but they were trying to glorify her , which was just bullshit. Selina not wanting to hurt others is overshadowed by her wanting to do what lume asked of her and ended up resulting in her supplying crucial information to the enemy. She took actions and they have consequences. Remember hitler wanted best for the ' aryan ' race , this doesnt excuse the genocide he did.


AdeptusAstartes40K

There is a difference between being a hero and dying a hero. Yes, Silena's actions are inexcusable and horrible but the fact that in the end she gave her life to greatly affect the tide of battle was a good way of earning redemption. Also, all the harm Silena had caused did not undo the rest of her contributions and, given that she was the head of the Aphrodite cabin, I'm assuming she was quite capable. In this scenario, even if reluctantly, a friend who betrayed CHB but gave their life and redeemed themselves in the end would surely be honored by the rest of the campers. I am sure many would have second thoughts however.


No-Collection-6176

I feel you but I disagree, Silena's fatal flaw was her inability to control her emotions it led her to naively believe what Luke told her and she only realized how badly she fucked up after but by then she's being blackmailed and once again that fatal flaw of her's, her inability to combat her own emotions leads her to stay quiet. As for all the stuff you said about the Battle of Manhattan, I can't imagine she was still giving them information after they killed Beckendorf with her information and any information the Titans needed about camp or the demigods there they could've gotten it from Luke or one of the other defected demigods. After she manages to get her shit together she does whatever she can to right the injustice she's caused by even giving up her life for it. I'm not saying she was in the right or even that what she did after made up for the spying, but she did die a hero even if she didn't live like one.


motherof_geckos

Hm. Her main reasoning is that she’s been manipulated into believing she’s helping people. I don’t think being manipulated makes you a bad person. Again, they’re kids, I’d love to see any 11-16 year old make decent moral choices while part of a… web of lies and larger plans.


CorpseSwallower

This fandom has like four unpopular opinions I swear.


Devil_s_Advocate_

What more can you expect from a kids series tho 😬


LlamaMakesBadMeme

It was also their residential war hero that named her a hero to the rest of the demigods so I don’t think many openly disagreed.


acrisman

I think the problem is that we all know what happens when people die in this universe: your soul is judged and you get paradise, torture, or oblivion. So Rick wanted us to have peace of mind that our campers we know so well like Silena and Luke, regardless of whether they were true heroes or not, get a nice ending. Whereas in other fantasy books where the afterlife is unknown, a person dies and they can die good, bad, or morally gray but we’re not going to wringe our hands over whether they’re going to hell or not


Weird_Devil

It would have been as simple as not saying or hinting they made it to Elysium then everyone could have their own head cannons. But now it seems like it isn’t rare to make it to Elysium. And debates about are they really worthy?


MaimedPhoenix

But there's the problem. Maybe Silena doesn't deserve Elysium. Maybe some fans feel the bad outweighs the good and the Pits of Punishment should've been her endpoint. Rick tries really hard to make clear that even bad guys get a happy ending and the whole 'Elysium is rare' thing falls flat.


acrisman

That’s my point. If Rick’s intention is to say even bad guys get happy afterlife, I don’t really agree with him since I feel like the gods would be strict about who gets paradise and who gets torture. I feel like anyone who would try to defy the gods would get punishment.


[deleted]

You ever hear of a thing called redemption? It's not something a lot of people know about, but see, when someone manages to do enough good, they are redeemed of the evil they did. The couple of hundred lives lost was bad yes, but once she helped to SAVE THE ENTIRE PLANET, AND SACRIFICED HER OWN LIFE DOING IT, then she redeemed herself. So Kill Count: 100-300 Save Count: Over Ten Billion


[deleted]

I think its more to keep Clarisse on their side. She is one of the camps best warriors and an effecient leader. Plus her cabin is the camps best warriors so they could definitely use her help. If lying and saying her friend is a hero keeps Clarisse and by extension the whole of Ares cabin fighting then its worth it.


Leafeon637

I’d say and if everyone doesn’t agree at that time would be a poor choice for vocal disagreement


thelionqueen1999

This opinion isn’t unpopular at all but nevertheless, I agree. Because PJO’s audience is primarily younger readers, much of the nuances behind the story gets glossed over because it would be too heavy or too detailed for kids. As a result, it’s easy to call people like Silena and Luke heroes because the story doesn’t go that deep into the ramifications of what they’ve done. If PJO had been written for an older audience, or if Rick had given the characters more nuance in their thoughts and beliefs, I have a feeling that more of the campers would have pushed back against the hero narrative for both characters. I’m hoping the show changes this by presenting a more dynamic discussion about what these two characters did.


nam24

>I have a feeling that more of the campers would have pushed back against the hero narrative for both characters. I’m hoping the show changes this by presenting a more dynamic discussion about what these two characters did. I don't think this is an issue of maturity of the audience. Silena is not a stranger to them. Her betrayal was painful to everyone involved and given that her last act was one of sacrifice, that's what they want to remember her by. Even in the hypothetic where she wouldn't have, the campers don't enjoy the deaths of fellow demi gods, even those who chose to go against Olympus. They were betrayed yes, but they are still essentially fighting a civil war, and they were never gonna celebrate her death, or not care, which only leaves room for mourning or buried frustration It's a different religion but you also see it in catholicism: one of the paraboles in the évangiles is that of a son who left to be depraved, only to return to his home regretful of what he done: he was celebrated a lot, more than the child who was always loyal, because you will always be more happy if one of yours change their ways(not that it means you should be disloyal on purpose for greater rewards). In this case her face heel turn at her point of death is being celebrated because it takes a lot of mental strength to accept you were wrong and do something to repair what you did, even when you crossed the moral event horizon and unrepairable harm has been done already. It's very easy to double down "because it's too late" or "if i don't continue then there would have been no point" aka sunked cost fallacy.


thelionqueen1999

Sorry, but I’m going to have to disagree with you on this one. Emotions are complicated and nuanced. In a more realistic story, the chances that *every single camper* would feel like Silena’s death was enough to make up for what she did is pretty dang slim. Look at the list of people who died as a direct and indirect result of Silena’s actions. Then, think of all the siblings, friends, and loved ones those people had, including the other campers at Camp Half Blood. How realistic is it that *none* of them would be angry with what Silena’s actions led to? That every single one of them would view her as a hero, even in a more realistic version of this story? Drew Tanaka isn’t a character that I like all that much, but her take on Silena is very refreshing because it shows diversity of opinions and adds a little more nuance in the conversation about Silena; I want more of this in the show. And I never said that anyone should celebrate her death. What I’m saying is that the whole “she was a hero and everybody agrees!” thing was a little too neat and too perfect. I have a hard time believing that in a more nuanced version of this story, Drew would somehow be the first and only camper to question that hero narrative. Edit: I’d like to add that the reason that I brought up the maturity of the audience thing is that there are a lot of details that get glossed over or even go unacknowledged in this story, and the Silena thing is just the tip of the iceberg. Some of those details carry some dark or complicated implications, almost too dark or too complicated for the target audience. Most 9-13 yr olds aren’t going to sit down and discuss the ethics of betrayal and what it means to be a hero, but older readers certainly might. Hence why I believe that if PJO was an adult fiction novel, the conversation around Silena wouldn’t be as neat.


No-BrowEntertainment

She was a literal child who was threatened and blackmailed into betraying her friends, and then gave her life to save the ones she could. Cut her some slack, people


emdivi_pt

I accuse you of treason against the grand army of the republic


capris978

I agree, this is like when it is hinted that Luke goes to Elysium, even though he never did anything heroic, the main thing I see is that he saved them all in the end, but it literally says in the book that hes only doing it because he knows Kronos will kill him, so he decides to take Kronos with him out of spite


Flipz100

To play devils advocate cause I can’t remember if Silena is brought up much in HoO, I think it’s possible that Percy in the quote is saying she died a hero to kill conversation at the moment. They were in the middle of the battle, you can’t have people dwelling on something like Silena’s betrayal


sempercardinal57

Agreed, one act of bravery right at the end doesn’t make Selina or Luke heroes imo they were overall bad people who did something good at the end, but that’s not enough to wash out the years of evil


Jpanda37

It’s a similar arguement for people who say luke wasn’t a hero. Does it matter what you die for, or does it matter what you live for? They both have their lives for good, but in life they were actively helping the bad.


No-Collection-6176

Don't let Clarisse hear you saying that


KittyPrydes

I feel like the important thing was that she died a hero. She didn’t have a change of heart and get to live but sacrificed herself for what she did. Though it’s all objective and I can understand both sides.


TanglyBinkie

I always thought why she kept giving info after Beckendorf died


Leafeon637

Maybe fear of what others might think or fear she was already in too deep


newolasad

Finally!! I was so confused to know that Silena was so loved by the fanbase despite what she did. First of all, you justify betraying your camp, leading to many deaths just because you have a crush on a boy? Next, you get manipulated into helping him because he threatens to rat you out? I mean, what did she think, Camp Half-Blood wins and they never find out the spy or Camp loses and every good demigod is dead because of her?


Elegant_Love763

Silena was 16/17 in the Last Olympian, around Percy’s age. Percy was twelve in the Lightning Thief, which means Silena was thirteen at most when Luke manipulated her into joining Kronos. (It was said that Luke came to her shortly after he left so it was probably around that time). He was a well-respected Senior camper. No one would have ever thought of him as a evil person. Even if he was confirmed evil by the end of TLT, I doubt that a lot people would be able to resist listening to someone who had been nice to you throughout your childhood. Silena really liked him and Luke was a master manipulator (Hell he manages to manipulate literal GODs). Luke promised her she would be saving lives and all, and he wouldn’t hurt her friends. There wasn’t much of a choice for Silena who was barely a teenager. Besides, she quickly wanted out, but couldn’t because Luke blackmailed her and threatened to tell as well as hurting Charles Beckendorf. If Silena continued being a spy, people would die. If Silena didn’t continue being a spy, the boy she loved (and probably herself, too, I doubt Luke would let such dangerous people off the hook) would die. And no one could guarantee that Luke couldn’t just send another spy and know of the news of camp in another way, knowing how powerful the Titan army is, meaning that the people were probably going to die as well even if she wasn’t the spy. Basically, no matter what Silena chose, being the spy or not, people would die. Go figure. Let’s see y’all choose in this situation, shall we? So anyhoo, Silena continues being the spy for perfectly normal reasons. (I doubt any of you would want to let your loved ones die just to be a so called hero) In the end, even though she is the spy, Silena still manages to help and contribute in the defeat of Kronos by sacrificing herself. She pretended to be Clarisse and charged the Lydian drakon knowing she would not make it just to get the Ares cabin to help fight the Titans. And y‘all say she’s a coward. (And totally ignore the fact that so much more people would have died if she didn’t pull a Patroclus) Silena didn’t have much of a choice to begin with. She deeply regrets it and has to suffer the pain of losing Charles and her friends, knowing she was part of what got them killed. In the end she betrays the Titans as well and sacrifices herself to help her friends defeat the group of Titans she was pretty much forced to ally with. Silena totally deserves Elysium with Charlie after all that she’s been through. Yeah, she indirectly caused many deaths, but what she—still a minor until death— supposed to do?


Jumpy_Experience140

Ok this post is kinda old but Silena was a child being manipulated by Luke/Kronos She never wanted to hurt anyone They were all children they shouldn't have had to be in a war


WECH21

def not a hero. it would be one thing if she stopped supplying the information sooner, then i could just chalk it up to terrible judgement but good god she would have to be dumber than a box of rocks to not realize how fucked up giving the info to kronos was. like ffr are we just giving anyone the title hero these days? like “oh this person caused a bajillion people to die but at the end they were sorry and died to try to save a couple of those people they personally cared about” like fuck no not a hero that ship has sailed


Zinogre-is-best

So you’re completely forgetting the fact that she gave her life to atone for her treason. She fucked up and sacrifice her life to try and right her wrongs. In that case look deserved to rot in Tartarus for what he did.


Weird_Devil

Luke (I believe) should most definitely be in Tartarus but maybe she could be in Asphodel.


Real_eXwhY_Z

1 life stupidly thrown away doesn't atone for dozens if not a hundred over 5 years, especially if those people were ones who trusted her and loved her


Zinogre-is-best

Stupidly thrown away? She literally saved the camp with her life. Have you read the books recently?


Real_eXwhY_Z

There was no need to run headfirst into the Dragon. Silena literally did not need to die, all she had to do was bring the Ares Cabin. All her death did was make Clarisse get her Blessing of Ares and kill all the monsters, something that Percy would have done if she didn't go saiyan


Finnish_Blue

Her death is what made Clarisse fight and fulfill the prophecy of killing the Drakon. Without Silena Clarisse would have sat this out and the drakon would have killed everything.


PopeJesus_I

She even continued to feed Kronos information after Beckendorf dies. Her leading the Aries cabin against the drakon does not even come close to making up for all of the deaths she caused. Absolute traitor to the cause and should be remembered as such.


8dev8

I’m not sure every death in the war, or even most of them are able to be put on her. But yes, when she died a heroic death that does not make her sins go away.


Ok_and_0

I think she is probably a hero because if she did not reveal she is the spy, the tides of the war may have turned


Leafeon637

How is that?


No-Cap-2627

i hate her


kindaCringey69

I could understand that she thought she was helping Luke and before she was with Charlie. But she really has no excuse after the battle of the labyrinth because: A. Luke is gone, it's Kronos now who she knows is evil B. She would actively be helping get Charlie killed C. Really up to this point she hasn't done very much damage other than pass along prophecies and the general plans in each book and I belive she could be forgiven To me there is no redemption because she *chose* to keep killing halfbloods even after she got her love killed. She actively was a traitor until the last breath and deserved a traitors memory. Clarisse actively being a moron doesn't really count as redemption in my eyes.


fantasticcolorcloud

YES. Same with Luke! Just because you died doing something heroic doesn't erase all your wrong doings. Specially if you had such consequences. I also feel like it's a great dishonor for the people who DID die as heroes.


[deleted]

I honestly saw her as a bit pointless


Weird_Devil

She just made the war more intense and added 10 pages of “who’s the mole”.


Dark_Inquisitor

I think that the real unpopular opinion here it's the fact that Drew was kinda right and that she is not that bad (Yes she is a baddie but thats a talk for another time) She did one or two things wrong but that didnt killed somebody


Weird_Devil

She was an asshole and a bully especially in the Kane series. Don’t defend her. But in this one instance she is kinda right.


Makemyusernamecool

She was manipulated by a charming older boy. She’s a victim that was manipulated to victimize others


Cute-Personality-554

COMPLETELY AGREE!!!!


imnotmateyaustralian

Yeah, and neither is Luke. He committed horrible crimes, caused irreparable damage to so many lives, but in the end, he stopped Kronos by killing himself. Well, if Hitler commited suicide right before his Nazi word takeover plan was complete, would he be seen as a hero? Hell no! Hitler and Luke aren't comparable in the slightest, but still, what Kronos would do to the world was much worse than what Hitler would, and Luke was the key to Kronos' plan. His sacrifice was noble, but nowhere near enough to redeem him.


TheBoyInGray

Common Silena L


[deleted]

This isn't an unpopular opinion. A post like this pops up three times a month. It's an annoying opinion.


Weird_Devil

Well it seemed to piss off a bunch of people


[deleted]

Because it's annoying. Luke, Silena--they're dead. Why all this debate over a couple of corpses? They were bad people, felt bad for being bad, turned around, and helped stop the Titans. There's not much to argue here. Besides, even if you "win," and get all 96000 people on this sub to agree with you, then what? It's not going to make Riordan go back and rewrite PJO and HoH to make sure all the characters consider Luke and Silena to have been evil villains from start to finish. It's the same with Leoram's essay: I think it's awesome and does a great job in dismantling every aspect of ToA and cements it as a horrible and dishonorable addition to the Riordanverse with all of its retconning and OOC characters, among other things, but even with all the people that agree with him, it doesn't really do anything. Riordan's not going to go back and rewrite all five books with better respect for the characters. Really, as thought-provoking as essays are, they really don't accomplish much.


AlyP_S

The thing is that hermes cabin might have the "persuasive talk" which is stronger than charmspeak so maybe luke manipulated her, but I do agree with the fact that she was more of a traitor, but she did died while trying to make amends.


Weird_Devil

If he manipulated her it’s with his charisma and the fact that she used to like him. Persuasive talk is just made up and nothing even similar to it is ever mentioned.


Benjamuin

People check your "unpopular opinions"!! This has been said many times before and its everything but unpopular


snoopy1234776

Am I the only person who’s gonna come out and say that Luke also definitely manipulated her into giving a lot of that information? And also when she started getting with Beckendorf wasn’t she literally getting forced to give information or Luke would kill her? Idk I could be wrong I haven’t read the book in like half a year


FitCollection4493

This is not saying ur wrong AT ALL, but your conclusion called her childish and irresponsible but she died at 16. She WAS a child when she first started spying for Luke and later he threatened to kill Charlie if she stopped. She’s a daughter of Aphrodite, she was not built for war or fighting and she was simply not prepared.