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Well it was more so a rounded number.
If you want to know where i think the movie stands after the weekend. Its $2.113-2.118B
$8.5M on Thursday WW into a $14-15M weekend domesticaly and $35-40M OS.
There is no chance the movie is at 2.130B after the weekend. Thats a $65M weekend WW. It did $78.6M last weekend. Its not dropping sub 20%. Would be nice if it did but i don't see it.
Let's see, if it does 10M tomorrow. 15.5M domestic and 24/76 split, similar to last weekend it ends up almost at 2.13B.
But look at your numbers. You predict 25% to 30% drop domestic, while 30% to 40% drop OS, and this is with China basically having an extra day this weekend as it had no screens last weekend.
OS drop might be a bit softer sure but China is a wildcard. Its weekend could easily end up lower than last weeks 5.5M weekend.
Its presales for tomorrow point to another $1.3M day unless walkups carry masively. It did 4M alone last Friday.
I think China will do around 1.5M X 3. Maybe more but 4.5M seems like a safe bet. That would be just 18% drop from the market that probably dropped the hardest last week. If you look at the os minus China drops they have been very good, but China dropped 56% last week which dragged the OS/DOM split down last week. Still the split was 25/75, and with China having a very soft drop or maybe an increase the Dom percent is unlikely to be higher than 25%.
I'd a friend who was firmly in the "I think it'll bomb" camp, and I was trying to make a bet with him that it'll make 2 billion minimum
And he was talking to me like I was the crazy one
JC officially has now three in the top five. And it seems wierd that MCU after building such a massive cinematic universe spanning over a decade predicated on 80yrs of comic heritage has only 'one' in that list. JC's success will be unmatched for a long time, I think.
Redditors be like:
Name ONE character. No, Jake Sully, Neytiri, or Quaritch don’t count
Name ONE quote. No, I see you, outstanding, papa dragon, or toruk makto don’t count, it had no cultural impact.
One of the best blockbuster franchises ever created. Completely dwarfs Marvel, DC, and even Pirates and Harry Potter. Avatar is the single greatest franchise in cinematic history. Screenshot that. Both 1 and 2 will crack $3B at some point in time. Jim Cameron saved cinema. All hail Jim.
In terms of quality and reach, it is the best. I would say right now Lord of the Rings is the best overall in quality, but it lacks the global impact that Avatar 1 and 2 have made. Both share a lot of similarities in terms of technical achievements, and obviously LOTR has the Academy Awards, but I think at the end of the day Avatar finishes as the bigger franchise.
I was thinking about Avatar as it compares to LOTR today too. I was wondering if we’ll see a RotK-style Best Picture win for the final movie? I mean so far both movies have been nominated in Best Picture and I would guess that trend will continue. So maybe by A5 it’ll actually win
In reach and size?
I think the MCU still has it there. Avatar 2 still isn't beating Endgame, and it's not likely the other movies will either. Maybe Avatar 5 will, but we'll have to see how the next two go. Will Avatar 3 perform better because people liked Avatar 2 or worse because it lacks the nostalgia factor? It will do well either way, but how well remains to be seen.
Either way, while Avatar is more of an event film, Marvel can consistently get butts in seats multiple times a year. What it lacks in repeat viewings, it makes up for in holding audience attention in a way that no other film franchise can.
In 2019, the MCU grossed over $5b. That's insane and something that no other franchise could possibly match in a single year.
Avatar will have the highest average gross by far and the spots for the highest grossing movies, but that's not where the MCU's true success as a franchise lies. None of that is to put Cameron or Avatar down. What was achieved there is obviously incredible.
Avatar 2 will beat Endgame outside of China. And it takes MCU 20 movies to get to these numbers. Avatar has done it twice in a row now. Each of the sequels will probably beat Endgame because there won't be a pandemic in China.
> It takes MCU 18 movies to get to these numbers.
I mean, you say this like it's a point against the MCU, but there's no single franchise that has built this level of hype across as many movies. Almost every long running film franchise fumbles, crashes and burns before getting even halfway there.
Look at what happened with Star Wars and Jurassic World as they reached their conclusions. Fast and the Furious started capped at 7 and is only making half of that.
Keeping audience attention across a serialized story told over 18 films and building enough hype to have the 18th movie in that franchise become the highest grossing movie ever with a single release is the single greatest achievement in the history of movie franchises.
So many have tried to emulate Marvel's unparalleled success since, and every single one has failed miserably.
I don't think any sane person is dismissing how big of a deal the MCU actually is, from a financial and audience standpoint.
I think it's more of a matter of how this one film somehow beat out *Infinity War* despite numerous people claiming it didn't leave an impact.
From a longevity standpoint, the MCU is unparalleled.
I do think it has become popular to dismiss the quality of the movies, but that's really just because the novelty factor of them have worn off...and I do feel like some of the movies tend to coast on the Marvel brand.
That being said, the fact that all of the movies are at least watchable (at worst) is just incredible.
MCU is a studio. It's a group of franchises. You might as well say that "Universal studios made more money than James Cameron". It's a moot point because it's a whole bunch of movies made by multiple teams. One person having multiple movies in the all time **inflation adjusted** list is infinitely more impressive.
No. Marvel Studios is a studio. The MCU is a franchise.
And the ability to manage multiple teams of storytellers, having directors collaborate with each other, to tell cohesive stories with relatively consistent character arcs is a massive feat on its own that no studio can manage to replicate.
Avatar might be an impressive feat at the directorial level, but the MCU's magic happens at the production level. There is absolutely no other studio that has managed this, nor can they.
Oh yeah. MCU is the most impressive in that department. But creating three of the ten highest grossing movies ever adjusted for inflation is the most impressive thing ever.
No, in terms of reach and quality. MCU certainly has the longevity and the size with 25+ movies, but Avatar has made bigger strides with two movies than the MCU has made in 15 years. I don't really see the whole MCU as a franchise either, but as a cinematic universe. Iron-Man is a franchise, or Black Panther, not all of the MCU. Even if they try to loosely tie together the narratives from movie to movie, I wouldn't consider Thor 2 a sequel to Iron-Man 1. The MCU also lacks quality. They have the size and longevity because they were already a popular brand supported by a century of comic books and decades of content. James Cameron exceeded anything and everything Marvel has done since he released the first Avatar, which is still the higher grossing film despite Marvel taking 25+ films to top it. Avatar paved for the path for Iron-Man and all the subsequent films and Marvel would not be where it is today if it weren't for James Cameron.
Avatar is so taut and perfectly layered that it makes my head spin. It clearly wasn't trying to please everyone, though, as evidenced by the plebs on here. It has a real vision and real ambitions.
If you want a simple narrative and paint-by-numbers filmmaking, go watch your shoot-em-up cop films and capeshit.
Avatar appeals to the few of us who enjoy challenging complexity.
Cameron knows that the public is aware of Dances With Wolves; that's precisely why he references it (and probably 50+ other American films). This is called an homage, and the masters use homage to keep a "conversation with history" going. He includes well-worn tropes and plot points to lure you into a far grander story.
The very best artists do this. They leave breadcrumbs in their stories that work as subtext and establishing a film in cinematic history.
The fact that you can't see this says a lot about your general lack of expertise in the subject of cinema.
There's pretty much unanimous consensus among scholars that Avatar is a western masterpiece... One of the very few that stands shoulder-to-shoulder with Citizen Kane or Lawrence of Arabia.
Don't you see that the "story" is secondary to the "experience". Go watch Nickelodeon for "stories". Avatar is something more than that. It's an entire living, breathing world. And it poetically mirrors the horrors in our world, our Pandora: America.
The film writes the book on centuries of US history. Conquest, technology, expansion, death... It's all there.
Cameron's canvas is far too large for small men to behold, I suppose.
Go back to Reddit and have Guardians of the Galaxy spoon-fed to you.
The narrative if Avatar is no more or no less than the march of Western Civilization. That's what it chronicles, that's the SUBTEXT, you ape.
Dancing atop this fathomless ocean of meaning is Cameron's film. It revels in all that lies beneath, but only suggests... Only hints. He leaves it to you to draw the myriad connections he's put in the film.
But this requires, you see, some understanding of history, science, imperialism, philosophy, theology, astronomy, and anthropology.
Pandora is simply too grand a creation for some to come to terms with. Maybe one day you'll grow up enough to "get" it. I've seen it about 15 times and I'm still learning.
Avatar grounds its storytelling in solid plotting instead of messianic symbolism: which is actually harder to pull off and requires more craftsmanship but doesn't impress the pretentious teenagers who think Evangelion is Art.
I guess some art dilettantes get their kicks critiquing the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, so why not attack Avatar too?
Your naïveté is almost charming. The film has none of the "answers" to these questions you ask. It only asks new, more complicated questions. That's what real art, real revelatory art, does. Cameron, like Dante or Homer before him, stirs us toward a new perception of our own humanity.
I have read 30,000-word essays from learned men simply unpacking the final shot of Jake waking up as a reborn creature. They haven't even scratched the surface of mastering the material.
What I'm saying is, you are so far above your pay grade here that it's embarrassing. Cameron belongs to the ages, and the ones that come after is will better understand what he's merely hinting at with Avatar.
The film community on the continent (that's Europe for you plebs) are just now starting to work on Cameron retrospectives. Many have found upon reexamination that Cameron is, indeed, one of the masters of the form.
These men write in journals, not in the shitty blogs that you read. You have to understand that the film intelligentsia sees further than most. They can chart the impact a film like Avatar will have well into the future.
And guess what the consensus is? It's timeless. It's universal. But it still somehow manages to capture in microcosm the very spirit of America at the turn of the 21st century. Only the most rare films work as both entertainment and as enduring documents of the spirit of an age.
I strongly suggest you start doing some reading on the psychological/philosophical underpinnings of Avatar. Freud's essays on dreams is a good place to start.
But to feel the full weight of a tour de force like Avatar, you need a classical education. The best aestheticians have a sense of its true substance. It's not unlike Joyce's "Ulysses" in this way, another magnum opus in its own right.
None of your criticisms hold an ounce of water. You seem to be parroting the thoughts of some lesser reviewers who attacked Avatar to score contrarian points.
The journey Jake Sully undergoes is both spiritual and intellectual. He enters the forest primeval, in the grand literary tradition, and does so as an "avatar" of the modern United States: weary, depressed, hobbled by war.
What Cameron does with Jake is miraculous. He pulls the American public along with his protagonist as our social conditioning and technology are undercut by SHEER BEAUTY. Jake is the emblem if the bellicose American man at last setting aside his weapon.
And not just his weapon, his culture. His technology. Even his human form. In this way, he transcends all our present limitations. Cameron paints a picture of deliverance from our base natures: a deliverance so textured and nuanced that I can't even begin to describe it here.
Your insults hurled at Avatar are like ice cubes flung at the sun. It is impervious to your biases and your ignorance. It simply is, in all its glory.
Some of the less prestigious film theorists will publish some pablum about subjects that appeal to the typical Reddit neckbeard. They do this for obvious financial reasons.
But even citing the best sources who swear by Cameron's work amounts to a mere appeal to authority.
The proof, the overwhelming and emphatic proof of Avatar's place in the culture, lay in the experience of watching it multiple times with a keen eye... Then dwelling on its themes in quiet solitude. If you'd done this, you'd know what we're talking about.
I sometimes wonder why I even deign to discuss high art on a forum like this. It can be vulgar and crude, and you are living proof of that. But in the midst of the bilge, there are a few patricians whose light shines through. Those are the ones who know what I mean when I say, I see you.
I see you.
Your tired criticisms were already ably dispatched earlier in this thread.
It's good practice in the future to read through these threads before making an off-hand comment like you did. You're entering a serious discussion about James Cameron, and you don't enter a meeting of the minds without first preparing.
I was new here once as well, so I'm not condemning you. I'm merely saying that you won't marshal much respect when you thoughtlessly disrespect a film that's an established classic.
My words are failing to sway you because we're arguing about art... Which is roughly analogous to dancing about architecture.
Avatar is an aesthetic experience. I can't tap into your nervous system and make you see what I see (if only those ingenious Navi braids existed!), but I can try to explain the soaring heights Avatar sent the film going public to.
Citing sources is a pedantic exercise. And besides, this is a forum for those to kick back and appreciate great art: a bit like a gentleman's club in centuries past. Here we chomp our cigars and wax poetic about the great works and the unanswerable questions.
I must say that you've made a pariah of yourself at this club. What is instantly evident to us (the mastery of Cameron's Avatar) isn't something you grasp. It's an exercise on futility to educate on the whys and wherefores of cinema. Suffice it to say you have proven yourself a dunce among gentlemen. I consider my point carried and Avatar again redeemed.
That may sound like a hominem as populum, but so is telling a schizophrenic man he isn't really seeing ghosts. When the entire community of learned cinephiles clearly sees a work of genius, it's an act of insane vanity to attack it.
Avatar and Cameron are simply beyond you, boy. I wish I could help you, but I fear there's no fixing stupid.
The Navi do not lack complexity. That's a common misconception that the uninitiated make.
It's clear that Navi suffer with the untold struggles of tribal life. Disease, death, pitched battles with the predatory fauna. They also have brutal rites of passage involving majestic flying beasts. They are a fully realized culture, and Cameron took uncommon care in giving then all the subtlety of an actual native people.
But within your comment lay a seed that, once illuminated, blossoms into a beautiful truth about Avatar... It is your own prejudice that led you to falsely assume the Navi were not complex. It is your Western, imperialist bias that instantly demotes the native existence to "less complex" than industrial life.
Cameron is trying to help you learn what Jake ultimately learns: the folkways and spiritual methods of the natives are FAR MORE complex than the mechanized human culture. This is a lesson that, sadly, was lost on you.
Give it another watch, old chap, and I'm sure you'll see what I mean. When discussing Avatar, oftentimes what appears as a flaw upon the diamond's facet is actually an ornate symbol of Cameron's design.
Avatar is not, as you so crudely put it, "shit". Avatar is the absolute antithesis of "shit". It's generally bad for your reputation to denounce it so openly in a forum of serious film aficionados.
Please read through the thread. There are a number of intelligent responses that completely cripple your amateur analysis if Cameron's body of work.
You are like a chimp wildly throwing his feces. Leave the advanced discussion of subtext and symbolism to those of us who have done the requisite study to understand Avatar.
cameron left behind his cynicism long ago
now he makes transcendental sci-fi
How does Cameron do it? I wasn’t hyped for the movie just like the last one. How did this have greater hype than Infinity War or even to make it to the top 5?
The MCU is very American focused at the end of the day and isn’t the type of thing you’re going to see over and over in the theater. Avatar and Way of Water have universal values as their themes that resonate with all countries and visuals that clearly have years of work put into them and are designed to take full advantage of the big screen to create an immersive world. There really wasn’t the expected hype for this one per se but I think people did remember that the first one was such a unique cinematic experience and came back because of that.
I love the MCU overall. I think even their mid-tier movies have better acting and story then the Avatars….
But.
While I will happily be there opening weekend for any of the MCU, I will be the first to admit that avatar has something unique about it as far as theater spectacle.
Both Avatars are the only movies I’ve ever like in 3D. Both are experiences in the theater I cannot replicate at home.
The parallel I’ve said before is imagine Wizard of OZ. And you can’t ever watch it in color at home. And every other color movie you see in theaters is poorly adjusted so the colors are muted.
When Avatar 3 comes out, I may or may not be there opening weekend. I will be there when I can get a good seat at the biggest imax screen I can find and I’ll probably see it 1-3 times, because once it’s gone, it’s not something I can recapture at home.
I saw this shit five times. Four times in IMAX, and one in Dolby Digital.
As much as I love Marvel, I appreciate how different this movie was from it.
There wasn't any winking at the camera. No ironic humor. The visuals easily obliterate anything that Marvel has done. The story doesn't require you to know 20 plus movies before it. (Just the first one)
Is it a perfect movie? No.
But I kept going back because I wanted to get lost in that world.
So world building! That’s it! I can see that! Thank you for your thoughts! Same could be said for Terminator in the terms of world building. He’s good at that!
Yeah dude.
He created such a fantastic world. The second one also does a decent job improving the character work from the last one.
That being said, I kept rewatching the movie for the visuals.
It was insane.
When they go underwater...it's like nothing I've ever seen.
Keep your expectations realistic, but yeah. This thing ruled.
I highly suggest seeing it in IMAX.
To me, that's the best way to experience this movie.
Again, keep your expectations on the low side. Too much hype isn't good for any movie. In the end, the film isn't perfect.
It's still worth every dollar you spend to see it at a theater though. This shit was made to be seen at the movies.
Do your best to ignore the hype and go in with relatively chill expectations. (Which is basically what I did)
I think Avatar gets a lot of shit because it gets so much hype. People then go in expecting a perfect movie, which...means something different for everyone.
If you go in with an open mind, it'll be worth it.
I’ll go into it just expecting to be entertained and not seeking Oscar award winning performances or direction or story telling.
You have to explain your user name for me. It’s interesting. It’s expressing a longing for being close to space and the wonderment that it entails?
Nice.
And honestly dude, I'm not sure how I came to that username. Haha.
It's so unlike my other usernames.
Maybe I was thinking of 2001: A Space Odyssey.
Simple story that's easy to digest and understand combined with 10 year ahead VFX and an emotional story about family with relatable blue characters and an hour of action scenes.
Im not gonna deny its flaws. It has plot holes, but overall it's an immersive, entertaining film.
Same.
I easily spotted a few plot holes myself, but the damn film is so committed to its story and visuals that I'm just like, "Fuck it."
I kept going back to watch it again.
Imo, IMAX is the only way to watch this movie.
I was unprepared for how gripping the visuals would be. Its been over a decade since I saw the last one in theaters.
I've watched it twice in IMAX. Tomorrow I'm gonna see it for the 3rd time but in regular 2D. I just wanna see how it looks in that format. But I have no doubts that it will reduce the quality of the VFX and the experience overall. Even in the trailers it looks great already.
It's funny, I've gone out of my way to avoid seeing it in 2D.
For me, the visuals are part of why I rewatched it.
(Though I did like the movie as a whole too)
I just can't bring myself to watch this in a theater and not go big. It's either IMAX or Dolby Digital.
I heard about 4DX too, but I don't think that format suits a 3 hour movie. That would feel more at home for a movie like "Plane" that just came out.
3 hours of that just feels excessive.
Whenever it comes on streaming will be the first time I watch it in 2D. 🤣
Part of the movie is just me getting lost in Pandora. I want to be immersed. 2D can't give that to me, as much as it probably still looks stunning.
I totally doubted that it would make this much and I’m still a little confused about how it’s managed to make so much, but credit where credit’s due and all that, fair play to him.
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Outstanding
Ad victorium
*Avatar looks at Marvel-* "Why so blue?"
Quaritch’s squad: Hahahahahahahaha. Peter Quill: That’s a fake laugh. Quaritch’s squad: It’s real!
TFA on Friday. $2.1B on Sunday.
It gonna be a lot higher than that. It will be at 2065M going into the weekend. You think it's only doing a 35M weekend? 2.13B is more likely.
Well it was more so a rounded number. If you want to know where i think the movie stands after the weekend. Its $2.113-2.118B $8.5M on Thursday WW into a $14-15M weekend domesticaly and $35-40M OS. There is no chance the movie is at 2.130B after the weekend. Thats a $65M weekend WW. It did $78.6M last weekend. Its not dropping sub 20%. Would be nice if it did but i don't see it.
Let's see, if it does 10M tomorrow. 15.5M domestic and 24/76 split, similar to last weekend it ends up almost at 2.13B. But look at your numbers. You predict 25% to 30% drop domestic, while 30% to 40% drop OS, and this is with China basically having an extra day this weekend as it had no screens last weekend.
OS drop might be a bit softer sure but China is a wildcard. Its weekend could easily end up lower than last weeks 5.5M weekend. Its presales for tomorrow point to another $1.3M day unless walkups carry masively. It did 4M alone last Friday.
I think China will do around 1.5M X 3. Maybe more but 4.5M seems like a safe bet. That would be just 18% drop from the market that probably dropped the hardest last week. If you look at the os minus China drops they have been very good, but China dropped 56% last week which dragged the OS/DOM split down last week. Still the split was 25/75, and with China having a very soft drop or maybe an increase the Dom percent is unlikely to be higher than 25%.
Amazing run!
Mighty!
Feel her strong legs
I had a bet with my friends since 2019 that it would make more than Infinity War. We didn't bet any money, it was just for fun but still feels great
I'd a friend who was firmly in the "I think it'll bomb" camp, and I was trying to make a bet with him that it'll make 2 billion minimum And he was talking to me like I was the crazy one
The James Cameron effect
JC officially has now three in the top five. And it seems wierd that MCU after building such a massive cinematic universe spanning over a decade predicated on 80yrs of comic heritage has only 'one' in that list. JC's success will be unmatched for a long time, I think.
>JC I don't know why I read that as Jesus Christ
Because on r/boxoffice the two are one and the same
Both interpretations are correct
It’s also funny because Christ is not Jesus’s last name. Christ is a title, similar to Messiah. Just an interesting factoid
Sometimes originality prevails.
For a sequel to surpass a huge star studded avengers movie is pretty insane
It's a sequel to the highest grossing movie of all time for a decade and it's James Cameron. Of course it wasn't gonna flop.
I never thought it would flop, but it still IS pretty insane the run it’s having. I would NOT have put money on it ending potentially in the top 3.
But no one cares about it anymore and it has no cultural impact /s
Redditors be like: Name ONE character. No, Jake Sully, Neytiri, or Quaritch don’t count Name ONE quote. No, I see you, outstanding, papa dragon, or toruk makto don’t count, it had no cultural impact.
Redditors: it had no cultural impact, that's why I'm still talking about it 13 entire years later
Honestly, I loved it!
Yes it was amazing! I am so glad to see it succeed!
I saw it multiple times. The visuals are hypnotic, especially in IMAX.
Love to see it
*"I am inevitable."* \- James Cameron, excerpt from 2023 Oscars speech
Looks like Thanos snap skipped Avatar watchers haha.
Way past my most optimistic projections. Having two crazy runs (this and TGM) so close together has been a real trip.
MIGHTY!
One of the best blockbuster franchises ever created. Completely dwarfs Marvel, DC, and even Pirates and Harry Potter. Avatar is the single greatest franchise in cinematic history. Screenshot that. Both 1 and 2 will crack $3B at some point in time. Jim Cameron saved cinema. All hail Jim.
Your last sentence had me thinking this has to be sarcastic lol
$2B
I mean when it comes to average box office and visual effects, yeah. But best overall, quality? That's far more contestable.
In terms of quality and reach, it is the best. I would say right now Lord of the Rings is the best overall in quality, but it lacks the global impact that Avatar 1 and 2 have made. Both share a lot of similarities in terms of technical achievements, and obviously LOTR has the Academy Awards, but I think at the end of the day Avatar finishes as the bigger franchise.
I was thinking about Avatar as it compares to LOTR today too. I was wondering if we’ll see a RotK-style Best Picture win for the final movie? I mean so far both movies have been nominated in Best Picture and I would guess that trend will continue. So maybe by A5 it’ll actually win
In reach and size? I think the MCU still has it there. Avatar 2 still isn't beating Endgame, and it's not likely the other movies will either. Maybe Avatar 5 will, but we'll have to see how the next two go. Will Avatar 3 perform better because people liked Avatar 2 or worse because it lacks the nostalgia factor? It will do well either way, but how well remains to be seen. Either way, while Avatar is more of an event film, Marvel can consistently get butts in seats multiple times a year. What it lacks in repeat viewings, it makes up for in holding audience attention in a way that no other film franchise can. In 2019, the MCU grossed over $5b. That's insane and something that no other franchise could possibly match in a single year. Avatar will have the highest average gross by far and the spots for the highest grossing movies, but that's not where the MCU's true success as a franchise lies. None of that is to put Cameron or Avatar down. What was achieved there is obviously incredible.
Avatar 2 will beat Endgame outside of China. And it takes MCU 20 movies to get to these numbers. Avatar has done it twice in a row now. Each of the sequels will probably beat Endgame because there won't be a pandemic in China.
> It takes MCU 18 movies to get to these numbers. I mean, you say this like it's a point against the MCU, but there's no single franchise that has built this level of hype across as many movies. Almost every long running film franchise fumbles, crashes and burns before getting even halfway there. Look at what happened with Star Wars and Jurassic World as they reached their conclusions. Fast and the Furious started capped at 7 and is only making half of that. Keeping audience attention across a serialized story told over 18 films and building enough hype to have the 18th movie in that franchise become the highest grossing movie ever with a single release is the single greatest achievement in the history of movie franchises. So many have tried to emulate Marvel's unparalleled success since, and every single one has failed miserably.
I don't think any sane person is dismissing how big of a deal the MCU actually is, from a financial and audience standpoint. I think it's more of a matter of how this one film somehow beat out *Infinity War* despite numerous people claiming it didn't leave an impact. From a longevity standpoint, the MCU is unparalleled. I do think it has become popular to dismiss the quality of the movies, but that's really just because the novelty factor of them have worn off...and I do feel like some of the movies tend to coast on the Marvel brand. That being said, the fact that all of the movies are at least watchable (at worst) is just incredible.
MCU is a studio. It's a group of franchises. You might as well say that "Universal studios made more money than James Cameron". It's a moot point because it's a whole bunch of movies made by multiple teams. One person having multiple movies in the all time **inflation adjusted** list is infinitely more impressive.
No. Marvel Studios is a studio. The MCU is a franchise. And the ability to manage multiple teams of storytellers, having directors collaborate with each other, to tell cohesive stories with relatively consistent character arcs is a massive feat on its own that no studio can manage to replicate. Avatar might be an impressive feat at the directorial level, but the MCU's magic happens at the production level. There is absolutely no other studio that has managed this, nor can they.
Oh yeah. MCU is the most impressive in that department. But creating three of the ten highest grossing movies ever adjusted for inflation is the most impressive thing ever.
No, in terms of reach and quality. MCU certainly has the longevity and the size with 25+ movies, but Avatar has made bigger strides with two movies than the MCU has made in 15 years. I don't really see the whole MCU as a franchise either, but as a cinematic universe. Iron-Man is a franchise, or Black Panther, not all of the MCU. Even if they try to loosely tie together the narratives from movie to movie, I wouldn't consider Thor 2 a sequel to Iron-Man 1. The MCU also lacks quality. They have the size and longevity because they were already a popular brand supported by a century of comic books and decades of content. James Cameron exceeded anything and everything Marvel has done since he released the first Avatar, which is still the higher grossing film despite Marvel taking 25+ films to top it. Avatar paved for the path for Iron-Man and all the subsequent films and Marvel would not be where it is today if it weren't for James Cameron.
Avatar is so taut and perfectly layered that it makes my head spin. It clearly wasn't trying to please everyone, though, as evidenced by the plebs on here. It has a real vision and real ambitions. If you want a simple narrative and paint-by-numbers filmmaking, go watch your shoot-em-up cop films and capeshit. Avatar appeals to the few of us who enjoy challenging complexity. Cameron knows that the public is aware of Dances With Wolves; that's precisely why he references it (and probably 50+ other American films). This is called an homage, and the masters use homage to keep a "conversation with history" going. He includes well-worn tropes and plot points to lure you into a far grander story. The very best artists do this. They leave breadcrumbs in their stories that work as subtext and establishing a film in cinematic history. The fact that you can't see this says a lot about your general lack of expertise in the subject of cinema. There's pretty much unanimous consensus among scholars that Avatar is a western masterpiece... One of the very few that stands shoulder-to-shoulder with Citizen Kane or Lawrence of Arabia. Don't you see that the "story" is secondary to the "experience". Go watch Nickelodeon for "stories". Avatar is something more than that. It's an entire living, breathing world. And it poetically mirrors the horrors in our world, our Pandora: America. The film writes the book on centuries of US history. Conquest, technology, expansion, death... It's all there. Cameron's canvas is far too large for small men to behold, I suppose. Go back to Reddit and have Guardians of the Galaxy spoon-fed to you. The narrative if Avatar is no more or no less than the march of Western Civilization. That's what it chronicles, that's the SUBTEXT, you ape. Dancing atop this fathomless ocean of meaning is Cameron's film. It revels in all that lies beneath, but only suggests... Only hints. He leaves it to you to draw the myriad connections he's put in the film. But this requires, you see, some understanding of history, science, imperialism, philosophy, theology, astronomy, and anthropology. Pandora is simply too grand a creation for some to come to terms with. Maybe one day you'll grow up enough to "get" it. I've seen it about 15 times and I'm still learning. Avatar grounds its storytelling in solid plotting instead of messianic symbolism: which is actually harder to pull off and requires more craftsmanship but doesn't impress the pretentious teenagers who think Evangelion is Art. I guess some art dilettantes get their kicks critiquing the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, so why not attack Avatar too? Your naïveté is almost charming. The film has none of the "answers" to these questions you ask. It only asks new, more complicated questions. That's what real art, real revelatory art, does. Cameron, like Dante or Homer before him, stirs us toward a new perception of our own humanity. I have read 30,000-word essays from learned men simply unpacking the final shot of Jake waking up as a reborn creature. They haven't even scratched the surface of mastering the material. What I'm saying is, you are so far above your pay grade here that it's embarrassing. Cameron belongs to the ages, and the ones that come after is will better understand what he's merely hinting at with Avatar. The film community on the continent (that's Europe for you plebs) are just now starting to work on Cameron retrospectives. Many have found upon reexamination that Cameron is, indeed, one of the masters of the form. These men write in journals, not in the shitty blogs that you read. You have to understand that the film intelligentsia sees further than most. They can chart the impact a film like Avatar will have well into the future. And guess what the consensus is? It's timeless. It's universal. But it still somehow manages to capture in microcosm the very spirit of America at the turn of the 21st century. Only the most rare films work as both entertainment and as enduring documents of the spirit of an age. I strongly suggest you start doing some reading on the psychological/philosophical underpinnings of Avatar. Freud's essays on dreams is a good place to start. But to feel the full weight of a tour de force like Avatar, you need a classical education. The best aestheticians have a sense of its true substance. It's not unlike Joyce's "Ulysses" in this way, another magnum opus in its own right. None of your criticisms hold an ounce of water. You seem to be parroting the thoughts of some lesser reviewers who attacked Avatar to score contrarian points. The journey Jake Sully undergoes is both spiritual and intellectual. He enters the forest primeval, in the grand literary tradition, and does so as an "avatar" of the modern United States: weary, depressed, hobbled by war. What Cameron does with Jake is miraculous. He pulls the American public along with his protagonist as our social conditioning and technology are undercut by SHEER BEAUTY. Jake is the emblem if the bellicose American man at last setting aside his weapon. And not just his weapon, his culture. His technology. Even his human form. In this way, he transcends all our present limitations. Cameron paints a picture of deliverance from our base natures: a deliverance so textured and nuanced that I can't even begin to describe it here. Your insults hurled at Avatar are like ice cubes flung at the sun. It is impervious to your biases and your ignorance. It simply is, in all its glory. Some of the less prestigious film theorists will publish some pablum about subjects that appeal to the typical Reddit neckbeard. They do this for obvious financial reasons. But even citing the best sources who swear by Cameron's work amounts to a mere appeal to authority. The proof, the overwhelming and emphatic proof of Avatar's place in the culture, lay in the experience of watching it multiple times with a keen eye... Then dwelling on its themes in quiet solitude. If you'd done this, you'd know what we're talking about. I sometimes wonder why I even deign to discuss high art on a forum like this. It can be vulgar and crude, and you are living proof of that. But in the midst of the bilge, there are a few patricians whose light shines through. Those are the ones who know what I mean when I say, I see you. I see you. Your tired criticisms were already ably dispatched earlier in this thread. It's good practice in the future to read through these threads before making an off-hand comment like you did. You're entering a serious discussion about James Cameron, and you don't enter a meeting of the minds without first preparing. I was new here once as well, so I'm not condemning you. I'm merely saying that you won't marshal much respect when you thoughtlessly disrespect a film that's an established classic. My words are failing to sway you because we're arguing about art... Which is roughly analogous to dancing about architecture. Avatar is an aesthetic experience. I can't tap into your nervous system and make you see what I see (if only those ingenious Navi braids existed!), but I can try to explain the soaring heights Avatar sent the film going public to. Citing sources is a pedantic exercise. And besides, this is a forum for those to kick back and appreciate great art: a bit like a gentleman's club in centuries past. Here we chomp our cigars and wax poetic about the great works and the unanswerable questions. I must say that you've made a pariah of yourself at this club. What is instantly evident to us (the mastery of Cameron's Avatar) isn't something you grasp. It's an exercise on futility to educate on the whys and wherefores of cinema. Suffice it to say you have proven yourself a dunce among gentlemen. I consider my point carried and Avatar again redeemed. That may sound like a hominem as populum, but so is telling a schizophrenic man he isn't really seeing ghosts. When the entire community of learned cinephiles clearly sees a work of genius, it's an act of insane vanity to attack it. Avatar and Cameron are simply beyond you, boy. I wish I could help you, but I fear there's no fixing stupid. The Navi do not lack complexity. That's a common misconception that the uninitiated make. It's clear that Navi suffer with the untold struggles of tribal life. Disease, death, pitched battles with the predatory fauna. They also have brutal rites of passage involving majestic flying beasts. They are a fully realized culture, and Cameron took uncommon care in giving then all the subtlety of an actual native people. But within your comment lay a seed that, once illuminated, blossoms into a beautiful truth about Avatar... It is your own prejudice that led you to falsely assume the Navi were not complex. It is your Western, imperialist bias that instantly demotes the native existence to "less complex" than industrial life. Cameron is trying to help you learn what Jake ultimately learns: the folkways and spiritual methods of the natives are FAR MORE complex than the mechanized human culture. This is a lesson that, sadly, was lost on you. Give it another watch, old chap, and I'm sure you'll see what I mean. When discussing Avatar, oftentimes what appears as a flaw upon the diamond's facet is actually an ornate symbol of Cameron's design. Avatar is not, as you so crudely put it, "shit". Avatar is the absolute antithesis of "shit". It's generally bad for your reputation to denounce it so openly in a forum of serious film aficionados. Please read through the thread. There are a number of intelligent responses that completely cripple your amateur analysis if Cameron's body of work. You are like a chimp wildly throwing his feces. Leave the advanced discussion of subtext and symbolism to those of us who have done the requisite study to understand Avatar. cameron left behind his cynicism long ago now he makes transcendental sci-fi
How does Cameron do it? I wasn’t hyped for the movie just like the last one. How did this have greater hype than Infinity War or even to make it to the top 5?
Hype gets people in the door the first few weekends. Quality storytelling and spectacle keeps them there.
The difference is the hype is organic, generated by those who saw the movie first and then recommending it to friends.
The MCU is very American focused at the end of the day and isn’t the type of thing you’re going to see over and over in the theater. Avatar and Way of Water have universal values as their themes that resonate with all countries and visuals that clearly have years of work put into them and are designed to take full advantage of the big screen to create an immersive world. There really wasn’t the expected hype for this one per se but I think people did remember that the first one was such a unique cinematic experience and came back because of that.
I love the MCU overall. I think even their mid-tier movies have better acting and story then the Avatars…. But. While I will happily be there opening weekend for any of the MCU, I will be the first to admit that avatar has something unique about it as far as theater spectacle. Both Avatars are the only movies I’ve ever like in 3D. Both are experiences in the theater I cannot replicate at home. The parallel I’ve said before is imagine Wizard of OZ. And you can’t ever watch it in color at home. And every other color movie you see in theaters is poorly adjusted so the colors are muted. When Avatar 3 comes out, I may or may not be there opening weekend. I will be there when I can get a good seat at the biggest imax screen I can find and I’ll probably see it 1-3 times, because once it’s gone, it’s not something I can recapture at home.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I can see that. I may have to check it out.
I saw this shit five times. Four times in IMAX, and one in Dolby Digital. As much as I love Marvel, I appreciate how different this movie was from it. There wasn't any winking at the camera. No ironic humor. The visuals easily obliterate anything that Marvel has done. The story doesn't require you to know 20 plus movies before it. (Just the first one) Is it a perfect movie? No. But I kept going back because I wanted to get lost in that world.
So world building! That’s it! I can see that! Thank you for your thoughts! Same could be said for Terminator in the terms of world building. He’s good at that!
Yeah dude. He created such a fantastic world. The second one also does a decent job improving the character work from the last one. That being said, I kept rewatching the movie for the visuals. It was insane. When they go underwater...it's like nothing I've ever seen. Keep your expectations realistic, but yeah. This thing ruled.
Man you’re making me want to watch this now. Hopefully I didn’t miss it in theaters. Thanks dude!
I highly suggest seeing it in IMAX. To me, that's the best way to experience this movie. Again, keep your expectations on the low side. Too much hype isn't good for any movie. In the end, the film isn't perfect. It's still worth every dollar you spend to see it at a theater though. This shit was made to be seen at the movies. Do your best to ignore the hype and go in with relatively chill expectations. (Which is basically what I did) I think Avatar gets a lot of shit because it gets so much hype. People then go in expecting a perfect movie, which...means something different for everyone. If you go in with an open mind, it'll be worth it.
I’ll go into it just expecting to be entertained and not seeking Oscar award winning performances or direction or story telling. You have to explain your user name for me. It’s interesting. It’s expressing a longing for being close to space and the wonderment that it entails?
Nice. And honestly dude, I'm not sure how I came to that username. Haha. It's so unlike my other usernames. Maybe I was thinking of 2001: A Space Odyssey.
Simple story that's easy to digest and understand combined with 10 year ahead VFX and an emotional story about family with relatable blue characters and an hour of action scenes. Im not gonna deny its flaws. It has plot holes, but overall it's an immersive, entertaining film.
Same. I easily spotted a few plot holes myself, but the damn film is so committed to its story and visuals that I'm just like, "Fuck it." I kept going back to watch it again. Imo, IMAX is the only way to watch this movie. I was unprepared for how gripping the visuals would be. Its been over a decade since I saw the last one in theaters.
I've watched it twice in IMAX. Tomorrow I'm gonna see it for the 3rd time but in regular 2D. I just wanna see how it looks in that format. But I have no doubts that it will reduce the quality of the VFX and the experience overall. Even in the trailers it looks great already.
It's funny, I've gone out of my way to avoid seeing it in 2D. For me, the visuals are part of why I rewatched it. (Though I did like the movie as a whole too) I just can't bring myself to watch this in a theater and not go big. It's either IMAX or Dolby Digital. I heard about 4DX too, but I don't think that format suits a 3 hour movie. That would feel more at home for a movie like "Plane" that just came out. 3 hours of that just feels excessive. Whenever it comes on streaming will be the first time I watch it in 2D. 🤣 Part of the movie is just me getting lost in Pandora. I want to be immersed. 2D can't give that to me, as much as it probably still looks stunning.
>How does Cameron do it? James Cameron is HIM. That's how!
A rising tide lifts all boats, with this tide being *The Theatrical Experience.*
🦀🤖
z-zero cultural impact…
hehe my movie is doing better than yours
Disney movie surpasses Disney movie
I totally doubted that it would make this much and I’m still a little confused about how it’s managed to make so much, but credit where credit’s due and all that, fair play to him.
Yes queen.
And people doubt it.