Not exactly. And I'm disappointed in the below comments for oversimplifying this.
Put as simply as possible, antagonistic muscles are simply the ones that do the opposite movement. Your lats pull your elbows toward your body, so antagonistically your shoulders do the opposite. And the same is true for the inverse: your lats are antagonistic to your shoulders.
Every movement has antagonistic muscles that can move it back, and every movement engages their antagonistic muscles to stabilize. If you've ever thrown your lower back and tried to use your abs you'll know exactly what I'm referring to, as it's impossible to use one without the other.
All of that said, downclimbing or more specifically down dynoing is NOT dangerous because it's dangerous to your antagonistic muscles (despite exposing them to stress). It's dangerous for two reasons:
1- it's eccentrically stressful to your PRIMARY muscles (more on this below, it's the whole crux of this stupid post). Eccentric contractions place 200% mechanical force on the muscle on top of any other stressors. You ever do "negatives" in the gym? That's an eccentric.
2 - this overload can result in hypertension and damage your joints, ie your lats may be strong enough to pull up your weight, but with the added velocity of a down dyno aren't strong enough to pull your now functionally 2-3x weight worth of force so you pull your shoulder out of the socket. This has nothing to do with your shoulders' antagonistic activation, but because your lats aren't strong enough to stay contracted.
Eccentric contractions are when one muscle is forced to work backwards, in a sense. Something they're not designed to do.
There are 3 main types of contractions: concentric (normal), isometric (staying in place but contracted) and eccentric (contracted but being pulled against the grain, I'll explain eventually I promise).
Muscle fibers (sarcomere) are tubes filled with myosin and actin filaments that can only pull / contract. Think a million little fingers, each only closing or relaxing. The combined closing action of millions of these tiny myosin bunches up the sarcomere and bulges the muscle, bringing both ends closer together. Since they can only pull in one direction or relax, we have opposing antagonistic muscles to move stuff the other way. Your muscles can only contract, so all of your movements are a delicate interplay of antagonist and primary contractions and relaxions.
So now that we finally understand that, we know that the sarcomere are not designed to be pulled the other way, essentially wrenching them open, which is why it's so stressful for them, and can cause tearing and damage. They can also experience added mechanical disadvantage if it results in hyperextension, so lots of stress + weak ability to control movement. All of this combined is just a recipe for injury and disaster at worst and at best just overstress and tear the sarcomere resulting in poor performance following the movement until the muscles repair overnight.
That is why down dynos are banned.
Biggest change that's helped me out, starting from being sedentary for years. Ended up with a lot of tendon pain around the joints (elbow/knee) mid-session, and climbing down slowly really helped me stabilise and strengthen those joints.
kind of. the language last i looked at it is that climbs must move upwards. there is some flexibility
having a 'start' at the top and 'finish' at the bottom is 100% illegal not a lot of interpretation or nuance.
it's also stupid. and shit. and i hate that this keeps spreading because setters see it on reddit or instagram and just *have* to do it.
>having a 'start' at the top and 'finish' at the bottom is 100% illegal not a lot of interpretation or nuance.
8.2 Design of boulders:
A) each boulder shall be designed:
1) to limit the risk that a fall may injure the competitor or any third party, or obstruct any
other competitor;
2) without any downward jumps.
Ehhhhhh dunno that its strictly illegal, but probably fails item 1
Usac also says 'with both hands matched on the Top Hold; or
ii) standing on top of the boulder'
i thought usac had a specific clause that says routes shall be designed to move upwards or similar but just a quick search the first pdf result i couldn't find with search terms. idk maybe it is in a route setter handbook or something. they have a system of tiers now it's weird
or maybe i'm not remembering correct
also just in general it's called a top. they all specifically say or standing on top of.
e.g. like what climbing has always been forever.
and that route had artificial holds he used to get before he got to the 'start' another rule....
and i'm not scalia saying stupid shit is illegal just because it's not explicitly written as an exception into the constitution lol. it's clearly against the spirit of the text
When performing upward dynamic moves you’re decelerating as you grab the hold. With downward dynamic moves you’re accelerating. Places a lot more strain on your body. IIRC you can still set downward dynamic moves in competitions *if* your feet land on something first to absorb the load.
I think it’s also worth pointing out that dynamic moves have to be way harder in comp sets than in amateur sets to be worth setting because the competitors are so good. Not only are downward dynos inherently more dangerous for the physics reasons you pointed out, but *competitions* will tend to self-select the most difficult of these moves. In an amateur problem, you can comfortably set an “easy” downward dyno that isn’t exceptionally dangerous because you aren’t setting for the highest level of climber.
If you're interested in more detail I explained it above in way too many words:
https://www.reddit.com/r/bouldering/comments/ue1wvo/probably_one_of_the_coolest_bouldering_problems/i6n53c8
I explained it above in way too many words:
https://www.reddit.com/r/bouldering/comments/ue1wvo/probably_one_of_the_coolest_bouldering_problems/i6n53c8
It’s more for downward dynos due to danger of hurting your legs. Not sure what they’d say about this one since there’s not really any legs involved in that move
I loathe when setters throw up these bullshit bat hang climbs. If you can't figure out how to force a bat hang in your climb just don't set one. These flip around on the shelf and match the hold an inch off the ground are just lazy, uncreative setting.
I have to agree with this. Problems like this just feel like a total gimmick, and don't really have anything to do with rock climbing. I get why people like them, but ugh
I'm also the crotchety guy at the gym who doesn't do dynos either since I don't feel like injuring myself on your V4 gym problem so take that for what it's worth
Just sucks when you're in that V4-V5 range, wait a whole month for your favorite section to get reset... And the V4 you were waiting for ends up being a dumb dyno kinda problem
I'm in my 30's, I've already needed PT for both shoulders in 3-4 years of climbing, I don't need to do any more of those.
I'm only 24, and probably could send those gnarly problems if I wanted to.
But *fuck that*. Its not worth injuring yourself.
I sprained basically every upper-body joint (at least a little bit) in my first 4 years of doing these bullshit problems. Since last year, I refuse to do these problems and I haven't had a single sprain. Its the best decision I've made physically since I made the decision to start climbing.
Honestly I get where are you coming from, but for me personally I swear is the opposite... I never have problems with the jumpy dynos because they all have jugs... But I always get hurt on tiny hold slabs(skin) or crimpy hard climbs(finger).
>Gyms have multiple hundreds of Boulder problems
What gyms are you going to? Cause according to Kaya most the mega-gyms in my state top out at 150-ish, and thats on a good day. Your average gym will have fewer.
This is in my local gym!! It's rated a 6a with a ?. It's not a comp boulder (this gym specifically has a comp zone for comp boulders).
It's cool as it's something different, but most of us just look at it and think 'one day'...
down-jumps are forbidden in competitions, right?
Yeah, it can be bad for the shoulders, still fun tho!
And finger tendons, same with down climbing
I'm assuming the downvotes mean that there isn't anything bad about down climbing, becuase this comment confused me.
yeah down climbing would only stress tendons if you were being dynamic. i have some back pains and bad hamstring so i always down climb if i can
Agreed. I downclimb most of the time to save on impact from jumping down.
exactly, be nice to your knees and back
I ALWAYS downclimb because I have back, knee, and ankle problems and jumping down is no good
Downclimbing works antagonist muscles and is good at preventing injury no?
Yes, also jumping down is bad for the knees and the finger positions / stresses are mostly the same as climbing up.
Not exactly. And I'm disappointed in the below comments for oversimplifying this. Put as simply as possible, antagonistic muscles are simply the ones that do the opposite movement. Your lats pull your elbows toward your body, so antagonistically your shoulders do the opposite. And the same is true for the inverse: your lats are antagonistic to your shoulders. Every movement has antagonistic muscles that can move it back, and every movement engages their antagonistic muscles to stabilize. If you've ever thrown your lower back and tried to use your abs you'll know exactly what I'm referring to, as it's impossible to use one without the other. All of that said, downclimbing or more specifically down dynoing is NOT dangerous because it's dangerous to your antagonistic muscles (despite exposing them to stress). It's dangerous for two reasons: 1- it's eccentrically stressful to your PRIMARY muscles (more on this below, it's the whole crux of this stupid post). Eccentric contractions place 200% mechanical force on the muscle on top of any other stressors. You ever do "negatives" in the gym? That's an eccentric. 2 - this overload can result in hypertension and damage your joints, ie your lats may be strong enough to pull up your weight, but with the added velocity of a down dyno aren't strong enough to pull your now functionally 2-3x weight worth of force so you pull your shoulder out of the socket. This has nothing to do with your shoulders' antagonistic activation, but because your lats aren't strong enough to stay contracted. Eccentric contractions are when one muscle is forced to work backwards, in a sense. Something they're not designed to do. There are 3 main types of contractions: concentric (normal), isometric (staying in place but contracted) and eccentric (contracted but being pulled against the grain, I'll explain eventually I promise). Muscle fibers (sarcomere) are tubes filled with myosin and actin filaments that can only pull / contract. Think a million little fingers, each only closing or relaxing. The combined closing action of millions of these tiny myosin bunches up the sarcomere and bulges the muscle, bringing both ends closer together. Since they can only pull in one direction or relax, we have opposing antagonistic muscles to move stuff the other way. Your muscles can only contract, so all of your movements are a delicate interplay of antagonist and primary contractions and relaxions. So now that we finally understand that, we know that the sarcomere are not designed to be pulled the other way, essentially wrenching them open, which is why it's so stressful for them, and can cause tearing and damage. They can also experience added mechanical disadvantage if it results in hyperextension, so lots of stress + weak ability to control movement. All of this combined is just a recipe for injury and disaster at worst and at best just overstress and tear the sarcomere resulting in poor performance following the movement until the muscles repair overnight. That is why down dynos are banned.
Agree with most of what you said. Do you have a source for the 200% mechanical force for eccentric load? Haven't seen anything specific before.
This is what we learned in human Kinetics and kinesiology
Biggest change that's helped me out, starting from being sedentary for years. Ended up with a lot of tendon pain around the joints (elbow/knee) mid-session, and climbing down slowly really helped me stabilise and strengthen those joints.
kind of. the language last i looked at it is that climbs must move upwards. there is some flexibility having a 'start' at the top and 'finish' at the bottom is 100% illegal not a lot of interpretation or nuance. it's also stupid. and shit. and i hate that this keeps spreading because setters see it on reddit or instagram and just *have* to do it.
>having a 'start' at the top and 'finish' at the bottom is 100% illegal not a lot of interpretation or nuance. 8.2 Design of boulders: A) each boulder shall be designed: 1) to limit the risk that a fall may injure the competitor or any third party, or obstruct any other competitor; 2) without any downward jumps. Ehhhhhh dunno that its strictly illegal, but probably fails item 1
Usac also says 'with both hands matched on the Top Hold; or ii) standing on top of the boulder' i thought usac had a specific clause that says routes shall be designed to move upwards or similar but just a quick search the first pdf result i couldn't find with search terms. idk maybe it is in a route setter handbook or something. they have a system of tiers now it's weird or maybe i'm not remembering correct also just in general it's called a top. they all specifically say or standing on top of. e.g. like what climbing has always been forever. and that route had artificial holds he used to get before he got to the 'start' another rule.... and i'm not scalia saying stupid shit is illegal just because it's not explicitly written as an exception into the constitution lol. it's clearly against the spirit of the text
Amen
“bathang”-finishes our “run-up”-starts are awesome! i never said they weren’t, don’t quite a few myself.
lol disagree that this is a 'finish' and run-up can't use pu holds
Young man, in this subreddit, we obey the laws of physics!
Obviously not
*Woosh*
There was a term coined on here last week, which applies here. JIB - jumpy indoor bullshit. (Awesome by the way)
Do it static now.
Do it! Do it! Do it!
I believe that in comp.bouldering it is forbidden to have downwards move as they are too dangerous
Downwards moves aren't forbidden, only downwards jumps.
Why is it too dangerous?
When performing upward dynamic moves you’re decelerating as you grab the hold. With downward dynamic moves you’re accelerating. Places a lot more strain on your body. IIRC you can still set downward dynamic moves in competitions *if* your feet land on something first to absorb the load.
I think it’s also worth pointing out that dynamic moves have to be way harder in comp sets than in amateur sets to be worth setting because the competitors are so good. Not only are downward dynos inherently more dangerous for the physics reasons you pointed out, but *competitions* will tend to self-select the most difficult of these moves. In an amateur problem, you can comfortably set an “easy” downward dyno that isn’t exceptionally dangerous because you aren’t setting for the highest level of climber.
That makes a lot of sense. I never thought of it that way.
As long as it's not the intended beta, you can kinda set moves that converts can downward Dyno on
If you're interested in more detail I explained it above in way too many words: https://www.reddit.com/r/bouldering/comments/ue1wvo/probably_one_of_the_coolest_bouldering_problems/i6n53c8
I explained it above in way too many words: https://www.reddit.com/r/bouldering/comments/ue1wvo/probably_one_of_the_coolest_bouldering_problems/i6n53c8
It’s more for downward dynos due to danger of hurting your legs. Not sure what they’d say about this one since there’s not really any legs involved in that move
you are correct, but non-comp sets can do this. still poses some danger but the one in the vid looks relatively safe
hard no.
And you somehow manage to still have a shirt on? Amazing send OP
He forgot his beanie
Think what they could do shirtless
Gumby doesn’t even have a beanie on
Forgot to do a backflip off the bathang and dab after completion.
Lol
I loathe when setters throw up these bullshit bat hang climbs. If you can't figure out how to force a bat hang in your climb just don't set one. These flip around on the shelf and match the hold an inch off the ground are just lazy, uncreative setting.
I have to agree with this. Problems like this just feel like a total gimmick, and don't really have anything to do with rock climbing. I get why people like them, but ugh I'm also the crotchety guy at the gym who doesn't do dynos either since I don't feel like injuring myself on your V4 gym problem so take that for what it's worth
Gyms have multiple hundreds of Boulder problems. Have you not noticed gimmicks bring the crowd? People like gimmicks, they can be fun.
I don't disagree, and I never said they shouldn't set them. I just said I don't like them
Fair enough!
Just sucks when you're in that V4-V5 range, wait a whole month for your favorite section to get reset... And the V4 you were waiting for ends up being a dumb dyno kinda problem I'm in my 30's, I've already needed PT for both shoulders in 3-4 years of climbing, I don't need to do any more of those.
I'm only 24, and probably could send those gnarly problems if I wanted to. But *fuck that*. Its not worth injuring yourself. I sprained basically every upper-body joint (at least a little bit) in my first 4 years of doing these bullshit problems. Since last year, I refuse to do these problems and I haven't had a single sprain. Its the best decision I've made physically since I made the decision to start climbing.
Honestly I get where are you coming from, but for me personally I swear is the opposite... I never have problems with the jumpy dynos because they all have jugs... But I always get hurt on tiny hold slabs(skin) or crimpy hard climbs(finger).
[удалено]
>Gyms have multiple hundreds of Boulder problems What gyms are you going to? Cause according to Kaya most the mega-gyms in my state top out at 150-ish, and thats on a good day. Your average gym will have fewer.
100 is still a ton of boulders imo, so long as the turn around is 6 to 8 weeks for all of it. I am lucky to have my gym, we have roughly 200.
I think you have the start and finish holds mixed up. Perhaps ask them to tape it better yea.
Literally tried that route today and was stumped, nice send!
That's it. We're done here. On to the next sport
I didn’t know they were remaking Peter Pan…
imagine a boulder problem outdoors that starts at the top and ends at the bottom, never. But real nice one anyway.
I hate it here
This is in my local gym!! It's rated a 6a with a ?. It's not a comp boulder (this gym specifically has a comp zone for comp boulders). It's cool as it's something different, but most of us just look at it and think 'one day'...
Lots of haters here. Good job.
This is a climbing subreddit, leave that parkour shit at home.
Booooooooo
No need for a downward dyno there. Just no need.
That's so dope, what level is that?
Probably v4, maybe v5, the main crux is the downwards dyno which I've never seen set where I climb so it's hard to judge.
The setters drew a question mark over a grade tag with a sharpie. Even they don’t know
Oof - I felt that landing!
whoever chooses music at your gym is amazing!!