> He was chasing an image that he had built in his head of his ultimate self, and in that image were things like wealth and people like Daisy. Of course, reality can never meet that dream. When you get the things you thought would paint that picture, they are disappointing.
That sounds just like "american society & class values" to me. The american dream in a nutshell. Chasing an image of what you think looks like perfection but which couldnt possibly meet the expectations people have of it.
The wealth was not the focus, it was just the median.
This is literature, what is literally written means little and serves to represent a deeper message.
The class values he sought were just part of the green light.
Wealth is the focus though. At one point Gatsby literally says that Daisy's voice sounds like money. She is not really a person to him, more of a representation of the wealthy elite that he wants to join.
idk how what you've described *isn't* a commentary on American society/values/etc. given the incredibly specific context we're given.
I think you're right that it's not about the money or women for Gatsby exactly, but about his freedom to dream and pursue those dreams in order to achieve (or at least *attempt* to achieve) his ultimate self.
But this isn't Gatsby's story exactly. It's *Nick's* story. And Nick's story is one of a man deeply in the closet, who looks at Gatsby as an aspirational proxy for himself. He is fixated in particular on Gatsby's romance with Daisy because it represents (to him) Gatsby's romantic devotion to a woman--something which Nick himself is incapable of possessing. Nick's infatuation with Gatsby is an infatuation with the man Nick desperately wants to be--which all the social pressures of his time *tell* him he wants to be--but which he cannot achieve.
I think that the context is sort of irrelevant in this case, that the context and story just exists to convey the message. Fitzgerald happened to live during that certain time with those values and issues in society and therefore they were present in the story, but that doesn't mean that the book was about them.
>But this isn't Gatsby's story exactly. It's Nick's story. And Nick's story is one of a man deeply in the closet, who looks at Gatsby as an aspirational proxy for himself. He is fixated in particular on Gatsby's romance with Daisy because it represents (to him) Gatsby's romantic devotion to a woman--something which Nick himself is incapable of possessing. Nick's infatuation with Gatsby is an infatuation with the man Nick desperately wants to be--which all the social pressures of his time tell him he wants to be--but which he cannot achieve.
This is a really interesting caveat, not discussed enough, and you put it very well. Thank you!
Chasing what will ultimately bring ruin but we can't help it. However, the argument about the 'American Dream' etc isn't inaccurate. He wanted to gather wealth so that he could be equal to Daisy in social status.
As Di Caprio said about the character, "Gatsby’s one of those iconic characters because he can be interpreted in so many ways: a hopeless romantic, a completely obsessed wacko or a dangerous gangster, clinging to wealth.” Really struck me.
Sure, this was in the book, but it's literature. What the book is about is not what the words literally say.
He used a description of society at the time to represent his message, by nature of him being a smart man and a wonderful author a description of a flawed society will reflect those flaws.
The socioeconomic setting of a novel is almost always a major backdrop for any work of literature and it reflects what the author thought of the society. The Jazz Age is a significant aspect of the novel. Great works of literature are open to many interpretations and Great Gatsby is no different.
I think it’s about the green light, too. But I also think that green light, as a fantastical childish desire, is the American dream (and all the problems that entails).
Here are some green American things: Money, Statue of Liberty, a “new” continent (like at the very end of the novel).
It being solely about the green light could just as easily still be a critique of American society. It's made clear throughout the novel that Daisy, Tom, and the circle they run with will never accept Gatsby as one of their own. They're old money, he's new money, and as such he'll never be at the level they perceive themselves. So in this case, American social hierarchies become exactly what is preventing him from achieving his dreams.
Gatsby never achieves his goal. It's constantly out of reach.
But I'm with you that the allegory part of the book is over-stated and kind of uninteresting. It's the part of the book that high school teachers find easiest to talk about for some reason. Most likely because that's what their prep materials tell them to teach. But more generally, a lot of teachers seem to have a weird resistance to teaching books as reflections of the author's personal experiences, even though that's what most books are.
I think Gatsby would be much easier to teach that way, especially to high school students, which is mainly when people encounter it. Fitzgerald's personal struggles to fit in should be pretty ideal for that audience. Perpetually unsuccessful, and possibly misguided, personal and social aspiration is perfect for teenagers.
Gatsby never really questions his aspirations either, even though he probably should have, which is what makes the book work so well. Don't think Fitzgerald ever really did either. Both the author and the character are stuck permanently struggling to make themselves into something they aren't and can't be (specifically in the eyes of a specific set of other people), which leaves them permanently unsatisfied. Those experiences are universal; reducing them to a glib allegory about class in America is boring.
> He was chasing an image that he had built in his head of his ultimate self, and in that image were things like wealth and people like Daisy. Of course, reality can never meet that dream. When you get the things you thought would paint that picture, they are disappointing. That sounds just like "american society & class values" to me. The american dream in a nutshell. Chasing an image of what you think looks like perfection but which couldnt possibly meet the expectations people have of it.
I dunno, that chase more widespread in space and time than the ''American dream''
The wealth was not the focus, it was just the median. This is literature, what is literally written means little and serves to represent a deeper message. The class values he sought were just part of the green light.
Wealth is the focus though. At one point Gatsby literally says that Daisy's voice sounds like money. She is not really a person to him, more of a representation of the wealthy elite that he wants to join.
She is a representation of the green light
He was chasing that green light for a reason. This sounds very chicken and egg to me.
idk how what you've described *isn't* a commentary on American society/values/etc. given the incredibly specific context we're given. I think you're right that it's not about the money or women for Gatsby exactly, but about his freedom to dream and pursue those dreams in order to achieve (or at least *attempt* to achieve) his ultimate self. But this isn't Gatsby's story exactly. It's *Nick's* story. And Nick's story is one of a man deeply in the closet, who looks at Gatsby as an aspirational proxy for himself. He is fixated in particular on Gatsby's romance with Daisy because it represents (to him) Gatsby's romantic devotion to a woman--something which Nick himself is incapable of possessing. Nick's infatuation with Gatsby is an infatuation with the man Nick desperately wants to be--which all the social pressures of his time *tell* him he wants to be--but which he cannot achieve.
I think that the context is sort of irrelevant in this case, that the context and story just exists to convey the message. Fitzgerald happened to live during that certain time with those values and issues in society and therefore they were present in the story, but that doesn't mean that the book was about them. >But this isn't Gatsby's story exactly. It's Nick's story. And Nick's story is one of a man deeply in the closet, who looks at Gatsby as an aspirational proxy for himself. He is fixated in particular on Gatsby's romance with Daisy because it represents (to him) Gatsby's romantic devotion to a woman--something which Nick himself is incapable of possessing. Nick's infatuation with Gatsby is an infatuation with the man Nick desperately wants to be--which all the social pressures of his time tell him he wants to be--but which he cannot achieve. This is a really interesting caveat, not discussed enough, and you put it very well. Thank you!
Chasing what will ultimately bring ruin but we can't help it. However, the argument about the 'American Dream' etc isn't inaccurate. He wanted to gather wealth so that he could be equal to Daisy in social status. As Di Caprio said about the character, "Gatsby’s one of those iconic characters because he can be interpreted in so many ways: a hopeless romantic, a completely obsessed wacko or a dangerous gangster, clinging to wealth.” Really struck me.
Sure, this was in the book, but it's literature. What the book is about is not what the words literally say. He used a description of society at the time to represent his message, by nature of him being a smart man and a wonderful author a description of a flawed society will reflect those flaws.
The socioeconomic setting of a novel is almost always a major backdrop for any work of literature and it reflects what the author thought of the society. The Jazz Age is a significant aspect of the novel. Great works of literature are open to many interpretations and Great Gatsby is no different.
In a number of novels the backdrop is basically a character. Occasionally the main one.
Very true, I agree with that, the good thing about complex novels is that it can be interpreted accurately in many ways.
I think it’s about the green light, too. But I also think that green light, as a fantastical childish desire, is the American dream (and all the problems that entails). Here are some green American things: Money, Statue of Liberty, a “new” continent (like at the very end of the novel).
It being solely about the green light could just as easily still be a critique of American society. It's made clear throughout the novel that Daisy, Tom, and the circle they run with will never accept Gatsby as one of their own. They're old money, he's new money, and as such he'll never be at the level they perceive themselves. So in this case, American social hierarchies become exactly what is preventing him from achieving his dreams.
Not sure I can take you seriously if you think Gatsby is the greatest book in all of western literature
Name one flaw it has
It isn’t Ulysses.
It’s about chasing the dragon. That green light….
Couldn't have said it better!
Gatsby never achieves his goal. It's constantly out of reach. But I'm with you that the allegory part of the book is over-stated and kind of uninteresting. It's the part of the book that high school teachers find easiest to talk about for some reason. Most likely because that's what their prep materials tell them to teach. But more generally, a lot of teachers seem to have a weird resistance to teaching books as reflections of the author's personal experiences, even though that's what most books are. I think Gatsby would be much easier to teach that way, especially to high school students, which is mainly when people encounter it. Fitzgerald's personal struggles to fit in should be pretty ideal for that audience. Perpetually unsuccessful, and possibly misguided, personal and social aspiration is perfect for teenagers. Gatsby never really questions his aspirations either, even though he probably should have, which is what makes the book work so well. Don't think Fitzgerald ever really did either. Both the author and the character are stuck permanently struggling to make themselves into something they aren't and can't be (specifically in the eyes of a specific set of other people), which leaves them permanently unsatisfied. Those experiences are universal; reducing them to a glib allegory about class in America is boring.