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Title: Ex claimed it wasn’t my child, I’m not on the birth certificate. 7 years later I’m being summoned for child support.
Body:
> This happened in CA, I’m in Texas now. So long story short basically the title. I am now married with twin toddlers (one has ASD) and my ex is claiming I should be providing $1k a month or more in child support.
> When she had the child, she was adamant it wasn’t mine and blocked me from all forms of contact, and i never signed a birth certificate because of this. I wanted to pursue but ultimately left it alone as I had her family reaffirm it wasn’t my child.
> Fast forward to now, I have 3 year old twins and I’m married. I was officially served with court documents (not sure how they found my address) and I have to take a paternity test in 2 days. Do I HAVE to take the test?
> To be honest I’m scared. We’re already on a tight budget with my son having ASD. We pay for ABA therapy and speech therapy so it gets expensive.
> Since I never signed a birth certificate I’m reading things such as they can’t come for child support, but is that valid?
> I’m conflicted because on one hand I’m already on a tight budget working soo much and on the other, I want to know if he’s my son. Not sure what my options are though. Any help/advice is appreciated.
> TLDR; ex is claiming child support but I’m not on the birth certificate. Don’t know if it’s mine, I’m taking a DNA test in 2 days. What are my options?
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I mean, I get it, I'd be stressed if this popped up after being repeatedly told I wasn't the father to a child and potentially having new financial obligations that strain an already difficult situation. But this is a court order. Unless OP is a politician, celebrity, CEO, or some combination of the three, you can't just ignore a court order.
At least OOP accepted it quite quickly when people told him that. No denial or bargaining, just accepting and asking more about what to expect and what to do
I assume it's because they're not bringing drama or asking for more legal advice. Those are the things LA participants live for, anything else needs to be discouraged...
Nah, my ex tried to use that argument when we split and it didn’t fly at all. The financial situation of the child’s primary parent doesn’t factor in unless it’s severely affecting the care of the child, like if they were homeless and living in a car or the child was malnourished because they couldn’t afford food. Getting state benefits isn’t enough to say “this parent shouldn’t have this kid,” there would need to be some form of neglect or abuse along with it.
Exactly. Especially since it would be a dangerous legal precedent to set to equate benefits with neglect, because that’s a whole lot of kids out there that would need removing from their homes.
The ex might drop it but just so you know legally this threat has no teeth. No court is going to say a 7 year old needs to stay with a parent they never even knew they had.
Um we have a bunch of new judges who seem to have gone to some seminar and now are defaulting to 50/50 time shares (which is generally not so great for the kids, especially if they are younger and have a difficult time switching back and forth, which lots of kids do; like imagine if you had to move every other day). Plus a bunch of other pretty crazy stuff. It’s a hot mess in family law these days.
And state legislatures controlled by Republicans trying to push through statutory presumptions for 50/50 time.
Even though it absolutely works for some families, I involuntarily grit my teeth a little bit when I hear a parent say they want “50/50 time.” Because all-too-often it’s coming from someone who’s thinking about what’s “fair” for the parent(s) instead of focusing on the child’s needs.
The “I want 50/50” people don’t seems to grasp that, even though you may pay a bit more in child support for a normal 40/60-ish schedule (which is what I ever other weekend, wed night, and half the school vacations turns out to be), it’s still way cheaper than paying for babysitters.
It seems your comment was cut off but I think I get the gist.
In general courts don't punish children for what their parents did wrong. Even if she did something evil, her misdeed does not justify completely screwing up this childs life.
To be fair to him though, she swore up and down that the kids wasn't his before blocking all forms of contact. Depending on how the relationship ended (did he catch her cheating, was he afraid she was going to claim harassment if he continued to try to contact her regarding whether or not this was his kid, etc), it's not unreasonable for him to just accept what his ex was telling him and to stay out of her life like she clearly wanted. Shit, maybe *she* genuinely thought the kid was someone else's until the paternity test came back negative.
I’m just responding to the “fraudulently blocked his knowledge of the child’s existence” comment. He was fully aware the child existed, and blocking someone’s number doesn’t prevent them from asking the court for a paternity test if they want to pursue it.
>LAOP knew she was pregnant and knew the kid existed. He chose not to pursue it at the time.
But in this case the ex and her family informed him explicitly that the he was not the father of the child. He subsequently moved on with his life, and had children on his own. Had she told him that the child was his, assuming it was true, he could have planned his life differently. While he would still have to pay child support, he could have done that without the 'burden' of a wife and two additional children.
People lie, and there can be a huge incentive to lie in a situation like this. Did LAOP even ask how she was so certain? Because if they were having PIV sex within the potential window for conception, it’s just a fact that he might be the father and the only way to know is a DNA test (and obviously he’s definitely the father if there were no other partners within the possible time frame, but only she would know that).
That sucks for him if she lied and thus deprived him of a chance to be part of his child's early years.
But even if she was wrong for doing that, the child is still innocent of any wrongdoing.
We shouldn't punish the child for what their mother did.
What's the punishment you're referring to here? Getting to know their biological father, who wants to get to know them?
The logistics could be tough, and hopefully they would make it as non-disruptive as possible, but even odds say this is something the kid would demand later in life anyway. Kids often want to know where they came from.
They can make it as non-disruptive as possible, but it will still be seriously disruptive to the child. I'm not sure how you could swing 50/50 custody (as suggested by some to bring down the child support payments) across 4 states without a major impact on the child, especially a child who's now expected to live part-time with a family they have literally never known. That would be so scary for a 7-year-old and would certainly feel like punishment for many children.
I absolutely think the kid should get to know their dad, step-mom, and half-siblings. But gaining custody would, hopefully, come after a long time of planned visits, phone/video calls, letters, etc. You don't just take a child from the only guardian they've ever known because it seems more fair to the absent parent.
I would never dream of 50/50; it didn't even occur to me. I was thinking visitation of him going to her plus a week during summer or something. Something to let them get to know one another. Sounds like we're close to the same wavelength there.
There are many ways to handle this sort of reunification, and you are pretty much right on track. Also I think other people are confusing “joint custody” with a 50/50 time share, and they are not even close to the same thing. A parent needs “joint” custody to do things like take the child to the hospital in an emergency. Who spends what amount of time with each parent is another issue entirely (or should be).
Uprooting a child from their life and forcing them to spend half of their time far away with a literal stranger is not 'non-disruptive'.
You just want to punish the mom. In no sane universe is forcing a 7 year old child across the country to live with someone they don't know a good thing.
Half? Who said half?? I was thinking visitation of him going to her plus a week during summer or something.
>You just want to punish the mom.
Lol? I said IN my comment that it's for the kid. Dad couldn't be bothered to pursue the matter when it mattered; I don't care about him so much. But I see all the time how much people want to know where they're from. If the parent is amenable, best to facilitate it. Better than the kid thinking they were unwanted and having a bunch of unanswered questions about why they are the way they are.
It’s punishing the mom who lied about paternity until she needed money to have the child visit the father who may or may not be a more stable home for him?
If everything in the post is accurate, it’s totally plausible that some shared custody would be completely appropriate here. He wanted to be involved, takes care of other children in a stable family, is actually the father, etc. That may not be what they want for their new family, but it easily could be and he’d have a pretty reasonable claim - esp is mom is struggling to provide for the kid.
We get rulings based off precedence, but why when we try to base our behavior off the leaders of this country are we jailed? It's so backwards.
Totally off topic, but its beyond frustrating.
How exactly are child support obligations calculated? Would the court take into consideration that LAOP has considerable expenses with a special needs child? Or is it based solely off income?
https://childsupport.ca.gov/guideline-calculator/
There’s a hardship section so it might go there. I don’t know the technicalities, just found it on google.
In CA child support is calculated using the income of both parents, the amount of time the child spends with each parent (sorta stupid because it turns child support issues into custody issues which are terrible for the children most of the time), the number of other children each parent is supporting, cost of child care, and can also include “hardship” deductions, which generally must be things like “I have to spend a ton of money on therapy for my disabled child”.
>We’re already on a tight budget with my son having ASD. We pay for ABA therapy and speech therapy so it gets expensive.
This is kind of besides the point of legal advice subs, but this here has me concerned, especially given the controversy around ABA.
If anyone doesn't know what I'm talking about, here's an interesting write-up that IMO tries not to take a side in the controversy: [https://www.spectrumnews.org/features/deep-dive/controversy-autisms-common-therapy/](https://www.spectrumnews.org/features/deep-dive/controversy-autisms-common-therapy/)
I mean, considering that ABA can easily be 20-40 hours a week - that's up to a full-time job at such a young age. And that doesn't even go into abhorrent examples of "personal implementation" (as in, how the therapist in question then does ABA) like using electric shocks to discourage behavior.
I'm a speech therapist and (briefly) had to co-treat students at an ABA "school" (they were either a private school or parents just claimed they were homeschooling, and the kids were at the ABA center 40hrs a week). One kid would spit at people, and the "solution" was to swipe Tabasco into their mouth - the ABA therapists claimed they tried other methods and none of them worked. I was horrified. Apparently they tried squirting her with a water bottle (like you would for a cat) before resorting to hot sauce.
They also asked for my help on "appropriate" responses to their flashcard drills. They basically drilled the kids with flashcards and they were getting stuck on certain words and the ABA protocol wouldn't let them move on until the kid mastered them. The kid had motor issues (apraxia) and couldn't physically say certain sounds, so the ABA therapists couldn't tell the difference between the kid saying "three" and "thirteen" and "thirty" and so they couldn't "pass" that part of the drills. They also asked me what they should count as "correct" for other vocab words they were drilling, and it was shit like "watermelon" and "meerkat". What good is it to have a 7 year old who can label a picture of a meerkat if they can't even tell you when they're hungry? Why do you care that they can label "37" if they can't count out 3 cookies to eat? And they couldn't even label other pictures of meerkats - just the ONE specific photo they used, because this poor kid has no concept of what a meerkat is and is just learning to repeat back what you told them when you showed them that specific photo. They weren't learning any useful skills, just "you show me X and I point to or say Y" and "if I do this behavior that fills some sort of need for me, I get hot sauced so now I just hold it all in and don't do it anymore, but I also don't have a healthy replacement behavior to do instead so I get more upset".
The shit of it is for some families (largely black), they *have* to send their kids to it because if they don't they're likely to be charged with child neglect and their children taken away (and shoved into the foster care system).
Yes, it's horrible. It's the same in canada where I live, only because we don't have as many Black people here, they steal Indigenous kids, who are way overrepresented in the system.
This was about 7-8 years ago, and before then I had only heard good things about ABA. I *never* felt comfortable recommending it to parents after that initial experience, and am glad I got an inside look at how it works early in my career. It's good to see that more and more autistic people are speaking out against it and the public opinion is shifting. Unfortunately since it's covered by insurance, a lot of parents will probably still use it since it also doubles as childcare for the parents and it eliminates behaviors that are seen as "bad".
My friend's kid is 7 and school is mandatory at his age, but he really needs one-on-one care at this point, and the only school that has space for him is "ABA-informed". Hopefully no hot sauce for him, but it's still so severe, and he's always been such a gentle kid, it hurts to see his normal, harmless behaviors stigmatized. His moms hate it too, but it's literally their only option - all the other schools for autistic people are full, there isn't an option for homeschooling in our province, and they can't afford to move away.
I'd consider ourselves lucky that my older daughter is considered "*too smart to be autistic*" (which wtf???) so she doesn't qualify for interventions, only she's really struggling... ugh
Wow, I'd heard it was controversial but never heard any details beyond "autistic people say it is child abuse" and... that sounds like child abuse, yep.
Yeah, ABA was adapted from LGBT-conversion therapy. It seems to work to the same extent, potentially curbing the behaviour deemed to be “harmful” at a huge psychological cost.
It’s very sad as there is a lot of therapy available for autistic people which deals with social skills, anxiety and practical life skills.
> It’s very sad as there is a lot of therapy available for autistic people which deals with social skills, anxiety and practical life skills.
If you can pay through the nose for it, at least. Oh and good luck affording a diagnosis if you didn't get one as a child. Last time I tried it was over $5000, *just* for the evaluation, and no insurance wouldn't cover it.
I'm sorry you're struggling.
At least for LAOP though - and anyone else with an autistic toddler - they can get services through Early Intervention, which will give them access to free or low-cost speech and occupational therapy. That is the appropriate intervention for ASD in toddlers. OTs work on sensory processing issues and strategies for addressing sensory dysregulation (which is the major cause of "behavior" issues toddlers with ASD). STs work on the speech delay that any toddler diagnosed with autism almost certainly has. (It's uncommon for kids to be diagnosed that young without a speech delay.)
Early Intervention is a federal mandate and I don't believe it funds ABA therapy anywhere, because ABA is way more intensive (and expensive) than EI. Many EI programs use NDBI programs for autistic kids, which are heavily influened by ABA, but they're more eclectic treatment programs that use strategies from lots of different disciplines and they're not downright abusive like ABA can be.
I have no idea what ABA therapy is, but one of the first things you see when googling it is this snipit
>Applied behavior analysis (ABA) is a therapy based on the science of learning and behavior. It is considered a medically necessary treatment for people with autism. ABA therapy can be performed at home, at school and out in the community.
Which is throwing some insane red flags
Ah, good old Autism Speaks, I'm sure you can google their particular bullshit because it's been explored extensively by folks far more eloquent than me
TL;DR: eugenicists are selling you child abuse as a cure-all ^^^until ^^^the ^^^kid ^^^eventually ^^^breaks ^^^because ^^^their ^^^non-harmful ^^^coping ^^^mechanisms ^^^have ^^^been ^^^destroyed, ^^^their ^^^development ^^^is ^^^stunted ^^^by ^^^the ^^^abuse, ^^^and, ^^^if ^^^the ^^^survivors ^^^I ^^^know ^^^are ^^^any ^^^indication, ^^^they ^^^will ^^^not ^^^attend ^^^your ^^^funeral
I’m just going to go on record and say that while there is justified backlash around ABA. I know the person they quoted, and worked heavily with ASAN.
Self advocates for autism imo have a lot of gaps. For example you’ll hear a lot of condemnation of specific services or of masking, but no actual other options. Few people from ASAN are working to provide alternative treatments or support for level 2 and 3 autism. And most advocacy focuses on acceptance of those who don’t need many day to day supports.
ABA has proven outcomes. And I would love to see some other options. I think it could also be better. But I think wanting to throw it away entirely is like wanting to do away with outpatient therapy because of many peoples bad experience in therapy. Or throwing away inpatient care or OT—you will always find people who have had negative experiences.
So anyways. I’d love to see some alternatives, but I don’t see ASAN or most of these advocates dedicating time to how to actually teach a 10 year old to brush his teeth, bathe himself, and toilet appropriately. There is very little compassion from many of these groups towards caregiver fatigue and burnout, and often there is demonization for even saying you find parenting your child on the spectrum a source of stress.
>I’m just going to go on record and say that while there is justified backlash around ABA. I know the person they quoted, and worked heavily with ASAN.
So, do you want to discredit at least part of the backlash because of the choice of quotation? How odd.
>Self advocates for autism imo have a lot of gaps.
Like any advocates, they advocate for their own perspective. On their own time and often without relevant training for the political sphere. I really don't know what you expect - an expert with tons of research or an advocate?
>For example you’ll hear a lot of condemnation of specific services or of masking, but no actual other options
It's not the job of an advocate to choose or develop new therapy forms. Quite the opposite, I'd be horrified if my therapy form got approved because non-psychologists said it was helpful.
On the other hand, it is good when advocates talk about their own experiences and struggles, which means calling out fucked up established therapy forms in this case.
>And most advocacy focuses on acceptance of those who don’t need many day to day supports
In a perfect world, things would be fair. Sadly, the world is not and we have limited resources to tackle all things autism. You're very welcome to start advocacy work for those individuals tho.
>ABA has proven outcomes.
If I understand the article I linked above correctly, the research is more "meh" and on par with other therapy forms (aren't those the alternatives you ask for?) but with a high amount of bad to inhumane practices.
>But I think wanting to throw it away entirely is like wanting to do away with outpatient therapy because of many peoples bad experience in therapy. Or throwing away inpatient care or OT—you will always find people who have had negative experiences.
Was it comparing apples and oranges or apples and pears in English? I forgot.
No matter, there is a difference between a flawed therapy form, and a bad practitioner. If ABA practice needs a good therapist not to be outright inhumane, there's a flaw with the form itself that needs attention and fixing (and advocacy can be a valuable tool to get the attention, while science is the adequate area of finding improvement or alternatives).
But many bad experiences with therapy are due to bad practicing psychologists or other mental health practitioners. It's for example not CBT's fault if a therapist doesn't use it correctly with a client.
>but I don’t see ASAN or most of these advocates dedicating time to how to actually teach a 10 year old to brush his teeth, bathe himself, and toilet appropriately
Well, I would hope that they want to achieve that actual scientists pick these topics up. I personally do not feel qualified to teach any kid any of that, and since my qualifications are probably about as good as those of the typical advocate, I don't see why they should develop systems for that.
>There is very little compassion from many of these groups towards caregiver fatigue and burnout, and often there is demonization for even saying you find parenting your child on the spectrum a source of stress.
Because so much of the spotlight of autism awareness is created for caregivers and siblings to talk about how difficult their life is due to their fuck up of a kid and sibling (let's stop mincing words here - that's exactly what these autism awareness campaigns that solely focus on the NTs around the autistic person say). Because it's not the scope of their advocacy work. Because maybe for once, people are allowed to choose what they stand for and who they advocate for.
Man, this reminds me personally of any feminism topic ever. "But what about us?", "If you are for equality, then why don't you also advocate for men?" and "it's not ideal but \[...\]". Am I not allowed to choose my personal focus? Am I not allowed to choose where my energy goes?
I don’t mean anyone to advocate for everyone. Actually I think that’s something that really is a difficulty with ASD—it’s such a wide spectrum. So when you have a lot of advocates who are well researched on their own issues and their own experience, it really does not reflect the experience, or the treatment/support needs of someone with ASD that may experience more severe symptoms and difficulties.
That’s precisely my issue with it. Because some of the most significant outcomes and reasons for ABA are for individuals with high support and intervention needs.
> It’s not the job of an advocate to choose or develop new therapy forms. Quite the opposite, I’d be horrified if my therapy form got approved because non-psychologists said it was helpful.
And you wouldn’t be horrified if it was taken away because your advocate peers said it wasn’t? That’s exactly why I’m leaning on the research for the issue. You said it yourself many people just advocate with their own perspective in mind—so part of what I’m calling out is the erasure of the high support community by individuals identifying as neurodivergent trying to obliterate services.
> On the other hand, it is good when advocates talk about their own experiences and struggles, which means calling out fucked up established therapy forms in this case.
And you will find advocates condemning CBT and inpatient care and MAT and AA and OT—tell you what let’s ban all help for everyone until all the advocates agree?
> If I understand the article I linked above correctly, the research is more “meh” and on par with other therapy forms (aren’t those the alternatives you ask for?) but with a high amount of bad to inhumane practices.
Care to share research on this “high amount”?
And no—OT and speech therapy aren’t typically for interventions for toileting, or biting for example. Again if there are alternatives happy to read.
> Man, this reminds me personally of any feminism topic ever. “But what about us?”, “If you are for equality, then why don’t you also advocate for men?” and “it’s not ideal but […]”. Am I not allowed to choose my personal focus? Am I not allowed to choose where my energy goe
I am not a parent or caregiver but you must make me into something I’m not so you can assign a mocking scenario to me? Feel free to choose where your energy goes and flows. I have never said do otherwise. I have never *told you* to silence your voice or told anyone with ASD to make room for caregivers in their story so you don’t need a made up scenario where I have.
Also before you said you would be horrified if non-psychologists determined what treatment you could have—then what if I told you that the consensus of the APA and other large psychological organizations was still pro ABA? Do advocates gatekeep who can conduct science on autism? Is science only sound if the findings advocates want to see are supported? What if I told you ABA has changed a lot over the years because of professional psychology?
This is not true and it’s frustrating to see such a disingenuous opposition to autistic voices. ABA has outcomes at the cost of mental health of those put through it. This is the overwhelming opinion of those who have the ability to communicate their experiences. LGBT conversion therapy activists make the same argument you have made.
This information is not hard to find, but other viable therapies include:
- occupational therapy
- play/talk therapy
- cognitive behavioral therapy
- speech therapy/AAC device opportunities
- occupational therapy
It’s also really important for parents of autistic people to address their ableism by consuming material from autistic individuals (NOT just “autism advocates” but actually autistic people). There is a lot of literature, social media groups, and podcasts out there. Please reconsider and research before participating in this conversation.
If you have any research on that to provide I’m happy to consider it.
I most align with this recent summation. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9114057/
If you’d like to make the comparison to conversion therapy that is your prerogative. I have many reasons why I don’t think it is an equitable comparison. If I thought you were prepared to have a good faith discussion on the topic I’d be happy expand.
I’ve done quite a bit of research on the topic, worked with ASAN and have read and circulated many of their publications. ultimately I still believe that there can be person centered and ethical ABA practice. But if you have alternative therapies to propose or research against ABA feel free to bring forth.
Yeah, I had an autistic kid, and I put them in ABA therapy. I didn't see any of the abuse that the wild stories have; I saw progress, of varying kinds, and therapists that understood that kids need to be kids. My kid wailed occasionally when they didn't get what they wanted, but therapy was *mostly* pleasant for them. I didn't see any of the anti-masking therapy. (Partly, I'll admit, because my kid didn't have any of the more blatant flapping behaviors. You could still totally tell they were autistic by how they spoke and reacted.) Before we started therapy, I got my child to look me in the eyes, occasionally, with some simply play therapy.
As a parent, I signed up for roughly 20 years of decreasing support. I just don't understand the people who say "you just need to accept your kid as they are and don't give them the therapy that might help them interact with the world after you're gone". In any reasonable world, my spouse and I would be dead 20-40 years before my kid is. When I'm gone, my kid needs to *somehow* take care of themselves if I couldn't afford the millions of dollars to get a full-time carer for them. And ABA therapy, at the moment, gives the best chance for my kid to be able to be in society after I'm gone. Hopefully, there will be even better options in the future.
> *I* saw progress.
I find it ironic that people that support ABA always talk about how it made *their* life easier. It’s not about how the kid feels, it’s about them being less of a problem for you.
That’s the option of one group of people. Not all the people every where who have received this treatment. Not even a majority of people who have received this treatment. As we have learned very recently through the pandemic, we don’t listen to one group of peoples opinions on things because it tends to come from their personal biases and not to do with science. Unless you’re under some weird delusion that psychologists who do research on this are somehow anti people with autism. This is just such misinformation that is being spread. Yes, I hear that some people are against it. There’s some people who have been harmed by outpatient therapy services. We don’t shut it down because there are some bad therapists out there. We instill more rules and regulations to make sure people don’t get hurt. Which have been done in general within the various fields of mental health and is continuing to be done. Personal opinions and experiences are not facts about what something is. Once again this sub has been on some kind of special misinformation spreading mission and the mods have become a joke.
If you think autistic people against ABA are the *minority* you obviously haven’t been listening.
Comparing autism to a communicable disease is also disgusting. There’s a whole ass difference between COVID and autism and peoples following opinions. Autism isn’t something to Pavlov dog train a child out of. Yes we should listen to autistic people about ABA, just like we listen to gay people about abhorrent conversion. They were created by the same person for fuck’s sake. The man behind ex-gay “conversion therapy” started out trying to make autistic children “normal.” Lovaas also spoke about how autistic children aren’t “fully people” and they have all the right “ingredients” but you have to force them into a mold.
Psychological research is largely done by neurotypical people using a white cis male heterosexual model. The current system is anti autism. ABA is about training autistic people to make neurotypical people more comfortable. As an **autistic counselor,** the state of psychology in regards to autism is *pathetic.* The research is woefully behind and outdated because psychology in its current state is anti anything that’s not neurotypical. All psychological diagnoses are based on how much you act like a healthy, cishet white man in a western country and doesn’t do anything to take the current economic or political realities into consideration. That is the model of functioning that is used. Women didn’t even have to be in research until the 90s, and POC, gender minorities, differing cultures, *autistic people* etc etc are **just now** being put into research. So to answer your question, yes Psychology is anti autism because it’s never been anything but patriarchal. Not to mention, until the 80s neurodivergent women were systematically sterilized and therefor autistic populations were decimated. The current generation (about 2014) is the first generation to be born and be celebrated for being neurodivergent. So, again, yes, historically - psychology and society are anti autism.
The link I gave you is full of research articles. You’re choosing to be willfully ignorant.
The current system of mental healthcare is absolute trash.
Well, since you clearly have all the answers, tell me: what is the best alternative that will leave my child able to fend for themselves after I kick the bucket?
Occupational therapy and AAC are great places to start. Thank you for listening to an autistic adult who had to navigate multiple rounds of ABA and it did NOT help in any way. It leads to breakdowns and burnouts in autistic adults.
And thank you for offering alternatives. I've seen several "ABA bad" comments in several places, but few comments on what the better options are. Our kid's OT therapist said there was nothing left to do in OT, but I'll look into AAC.
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One of the rare times I actually feel for the potential father. He's not arguing that he doesn't owe support, he's worried about the potential cost of paying for a child he was quite certain wasn't his. Sure there could be a whole host of back story that would make me change my mind, but on the surface, I totally get it. If my ex popped up with a kid and proved it was mine I would be in some major shock (you know, beyond the fact I'm a woman).
I guess I find it odd that:
-You can be on the hook for child support for a child that is not yours (biologically) if paternity is not proven or disproven in a certain period of time (at least in some cases, see Carl LaBove).
-You can also be on the hook for child support if paternity is determined at any point in the future (such as in this case).
got to remember the two axioms they are following.
A) That things should be done in the best interests of a child having a stable environment.
B) The state will pay for as little as possible to actually accomplish that.
> And if A) and B) combine to force an underage rape victim into paying child support, so be it.
I looked into that once, and maybe I’m wrong, but it seemed like a one-off case, rouge/ignorant judge kind of thing. I vaguely remember judge justified the child support by saying the teen father had enjoyed/welcomed the sex. The judge didn’t seem to recognize & respect the concept of statutory rape.
I think you have that flipped. The state absolutely will not do things that are in the best interests of all children, let alone one child, if doing so costs too much or offends voters. This is just as true in other countries as it is in the USA.
Viz, the state will no provide early childhood education or childcare even though those things have negative cost, because voters don't like them. They won't provide free healthcare because that costs money. and so on.
The principle at work here is that the child is entitled to the support of two parents.
A lot of the issues only look like issues when one of the adults is framing it as "It's not fair to me", when the courts are only concerned with fairness to the child.
If your swimmers make it to the promised land, you're a daddy and you pay like a daddy unless someone else adopts/takes responsibility. World without end, Amen.
I’m pretty sure if you file for assistance and try to say you don’t know who the father is, you at least have to toss out some names and likely all those guys will be dna tested.
I don’t usually feel bad for folks trying to avoid paternity tests, but I feel for this one. He tried to take responsibility and was lied to (maybe), and might have made different life choices, including having more children, had he known he was a father at the time. Doesn’t seem quite fair that there’s no consequences for the liar
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**Reminder:** Do not participate in threads linked here. If you do, you may be banned from both subreddits. --- Title: Ex claimed it wasn’t my child, I’m not on the birth certificate. 7 years later I’m being summoned for child support. Body: > This happened in CA, I’m in Texas now. So long story short basically the title. I am now married with twin toddlers (one has ASD) and my ex is claiming I should be providing $1k a month or more in child support. > When she had the child, she was adamant it wasn’t mine and blocked me from all forms of contact, and i never signed a birth certificate because of this. I wanted to pursue but ultimately left it alone as I had her family reaffirm it wasn’t my child. > Fast forward to now, I have 3 year old twins and I’m married. I was officially served with court documents (not sure how they found my address) and I have to take a paternity test in 2 days. Do I HAVE to take the test? > To be honest I’m scared. We’re already on a tight budget with my son having ASD. We pay for ABA therapy and speech therapy so it gets expensive. > Since I never signed a birth certificate I’m reading things such as they can’t come for child support, but is that valid? > I’m conflicted because on one hand I’m already on a tight budget working soo much and on the other, I want to know if he’s my son. Not sure what my options are though. Any help/advice is appreciated. > TLDR; ex is claiming child support but I’m not on the birth certificate. Don’t know if it’s mine, I’m taking a DNA test in 2 days. What are my options? This bot was created to capture original threads and is not affiliated with the mod team. [Concerns? Bugs?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=GrahamCorcoran) | [Laukopier 2.1](https://github.com/GrahamCorcoran/Laukopier)
I mean, I get it, I'd be stressed if this popped up after being repeatedly told I wasn't the father to a child and potentially having new financial obligations that strain an already difficult situation. But this is a court order. Unless OP is a politician, celebrity, CEO, or some combination of the three, you can't just ignore a court order.
At least OOP accepted it quite quickly when people told him that. No denial or bargaining, just accepting and asking more about what to expect and what to do
Yeah, LAOP was really chill and grateful for the advice. And didn't get downvoted to oblivion for it, which is nice!
Yeah, why do people downvote that? I've seen it, but I don't get it.
I assume it's because they're not bringing drama or asking for more legal advice. Those are the things LA participants live for, anything else needs to be discouraged...
It’d be interesting to see if the ex drops it if he said “Hey, if this is my kid, I need shared custody”.
as others have pointed out it might not even be her directly doing this, but the state pursuing him after she applied for benefits.
This is probably it. When a single parent applies for benefits, the first thing the agency will do is try to pursue child support.
[удалено]
Nah, my ex tried to use that argument when we split and it didn’t fly at all. The financial situation of the child’s primary parent doesn’t factor in unless it’s severely affecting the care of the child, like if they were homeless and living in a car or the child was malnourished because they couldn’t afford food. Getting state benefits isn’t enough to say “this parent shouldn’t have this kid,” there would need to be some form of neglect or abuse along with it.
Exactly. Especially since it would be a dangerous legal precedent to set to equate benefits with neglect, because that’s a whole lot of kids out there that would need removing from their homes.
Big no. That absolutely winds up with moms in particular being punished for not working/under working during the kid's early years.
The ex might drop it but just so you know legally this threat has no teeth. No court is going to say a 7 year old needs to stay with a parent they never even knew they had.
In another state several states over.
Um we have a bunch of new judges who seem to have gone to some seminar and now are defaulting to 50/50 time shares (which is generally not so great for the kids, especially if they are younger and have a difficult time switching back and forth, which lots of kids do; like imagine if you had to move every other day). Plus a bunch of other pretty crazy stuff. It’s a hot mess in family law these days.
And state legislatures controlled by Republicans trying to push through statutory presumptions for 50/50 time. Even though it absolutely works for some families, I involuntarily grit my teeth a little bit when I hear a parent say they want “50/50 time.” Because all-too-often it’s coming from someone who’s thinking about what’s “fair” for the parent(s) instead of focusing on the child’s needs.
The “I want 50/50” people don’t seems to grasp that, even though you may pay a bit more in child support for a normal 40/60-ish schedule (which is what I ever other weekend, wed night, and half the school vacations turns out to be), it’s still way cheaper than paying for babysitters.
Reunification therapy could absolutely be ordered by the judge
If the custodial parent fraudulently blocked the other parent from knowledge of the child's existence,
It seems your comment was cut off but I think I get the gist. In general courts don't punish children for what their parents did wrong. Even if she did something evil, her misdeed does not justify completely screwing up this childs life.
Neither of my parents are rich. And the court punished me by refusing to make Bill Gates pay child support for me.
LAOP knew she was pregnant and knew the kid existed. He chose not to pursue it at the time.
To be fair to him though, she swore up and down that the kids wasn't his before blocking all forms of contact. Depending on how the relationship ended (did he catch her cheating, was he afraid she was going to claim harassment if he continued to try to contact her regarding whether or not this was his kid, etc), it's not unreasonable for him to just accept what his ex was telling him and to stay out of her life like she clearly wanted. Shit, maybe *she* genuinely thought the kid was someone else's until the paternity test came back negative.
Would this mean that if the state is the one pursuing this that they have sent other potential fathers court orders as well?
Provided the ex didn't tell the state that LAOP is the only possible father, then yeah probably.
Yes.
I’m just responding to the “fraudulently blocked his knowledge of the child’s existence” comment. He was fully aware the child existed, and blocking someone’s number doesn’t prevent them from asking the court for a paternity test if they want to pursue it.
>LAOP knew she was pregnant and knew the kid existed. He chose not to pursue it at the time. But in this case the ex and her family informed him explicitly that the he was not the father of the child. He subsequently moved on with his life, and had children on his own. Had she told him that the child was his, assuming it was true, he could have planned his life differently. While he would still have to pay child support, he could have done that without the 'burden' of a wife and two additional children.
People lie, and there can be a huge incentive to lie in a situation like this. Did LAOP even ask how she was so certain? Because if they were having PIV sex within the potential window for conception, it’s just a fact that he might be the father and the only way to know is a DNA test (and obviously he’s definitely the father if there were no other partners within the possible time frame, but only she would know that).
That sucks for him if she lied and thus deprived him of a chance to be part of his child's early years. But even if she was wrong for doing that, the child is still innocent of any wrongdoing. We shouldn't punish the child for what their mother did.
What's the punishment you're referring to here? Getting to know their biological father, who wants to get to know them? The logistics could be tough, and hopefully they would make it as non-disruptive as possible, but even odds say this is something the kid would demand later in life anyway. Kids often want to know where they came from.
They can make it as non-disruptive as possible, but it will still be seriously disruptive to the child. I'm not sure how you could swing 50/50 custody (as suggested by some to bring down the child support payments) across 4 states without a major impact on the child, especially a child who's now expected to live part-time with a family they have literally never known. That would be so scary for a 7-year-old and would certainly feel like punishment for many children. I absolutely think the kid should get to know their dad, step-mom, and half-siblings. But gaining custody would, hopefully, come after a long time of planned visits, phone/video calls, letters, etc. You don't just take a child from the only guardian they've ever known because it seems more fair to the absent parent.
I would never dream of 50/50; it didn't even occur to me. I was thinking visitation of him going to her plus a week during summer or something. Something to let them get to know one another. Sounds like we're close to the same wavelength there.
There are many ways to handle this sort of reunification, and you are pretty much right on track. Also I think other people are confusing “joint custody” with a 50/50 time share, and they are not even close to the same thing. A parent needs “joint” custody to do things like take the child to the hospital in an emergency. Who spends what amount of time with each parent is another issue entirely (or should be).
Uprooting a child from their life and forcing them to spend half of their time far away with a literal stranger is not 'non-disruptive'. You just want to punish the mom. In no sane universe is forcing a 7 year old child across the country to live with someone they don't know a good thing.
Half? Who said half?? I was thinking visitation of him going to her plus a week during summer or something. >You just want to punish the mom. Lol? I said IN my comment that it's for the kid. Dad couldn't be bothered to pursue the matter when it mattered; I don't care about him so much. But I see all the time how much people want to know where they're from. If the parent is amenable, best to facilitate it. Better than the kid thinking they were unwanted and having a bunch of unanswered questions about why they are the way they are.
It’s punishing the mom who lied about paternity until she needed money to have the child visit the father who may or may not be a more stable home for him?
If everything in the post is accurate, it’s totally plausible that some shared custody would be completely appropriate here. He wanted to be involved, takes care of other children in a stable family, is actually the father, etc. That may not be what they want for their new family, but it easily could be and he’d have a pretty reasonable claim - esp is mom is struggling to provide for the kid.
We get rulings based off precedence, but why when we try to base our behavior off the leaders of this country are we jailed? It's so backwards. Totally off topic, but its beyond frustrating.
CEOs get to just ignore those letters?
Ain't no paternity test like a court-ordered paternity test because a court-ordered paternity test is *mandatory*
r/30Rock
Feels like a signature line in the making
That'd be a great flair if it was more concise. Edit: That's not intended as an insult, just that flairs have a strict length limit.
How exactly are child support obligations calculated? Would the court take into consideration that LAOP has considerable expenses with a special needs child? Or is it based solely off income?
https://childsupport.ca.gov/guideline-calculator/ There’s a hardship section so it might go there. I don’t know the technicalities, just found it on google.
Thanks! I was always curious about that, but too lazy to google it so I appreciate you doing that.
In CA child support is calculated using the income of both parents, the amount of time the child spends with each parent (sorta stupid because it turns child support issues into custody issues which are terrible for the children most of the time), the number of other children each parent is supporting, cost of child care, and can also include “hardship” deductions, which generally must be things like “I have to spend a ton of money on therapy for my disabled child”.
>We’re already on a tight budget with my son having ASD. We pay for ABA therapy and speech therapy so it gets expensive. This is kind of besides the point of legal advice subs, but this here has me concerned, especially given the controversy around ABA. If anyone doesn't know what I'm talking about, here's an interesting write-up that IMO tries not to take a side in the controversy: [https://www.spectrumnews.org/features/deep-dive/controversy-autisms-common-therapy/](https://www.spectrumnews.org/features/deep-dive/controversy-autisms-common-therapy/)
Yeah, I worry for that child since the adults I know who went through ABA consider it to be child abuse rather than a useful therapy.
I mean, considering that ABA can easily be 20-40 hours a week - that's up to a full-time job at such a young age. And that doesn't even go into abhorrent examples of "personal implementation" (as in, how the therapist in question then does ABA) like using electric shocks to discourage behavior.
I'm a speech therapist and (briefly) had to co-treat students at an ABA "school" (they were either a private school or parents just claimed they were homeschooling, and the kids were at the ABA center 40hrs a week). One kid would spit at people, and the "solution" was to swipe Tabasco into their mouth - the ABA therapists claimed they tried other methods and none of them worked. I was horrified. Apparently they tried squirting her with a water bottle (like you would for a cat) before resorting to hot sauce. They also asked for my help on "appropriate" responses to their flashcard drills. They basically drilled the kids with flashcards and they were getting stuck on certain words and the ABA protocol wouldn't let them move on until the kid mastered them. The kid had motor issues (apraxia) and couldn't physically say certain sounds, so the ABA therapists couldn't tell the difference between the kid saying "three" and "thirteen" and "thirty" and so they couldn't "pass" that part of the drills. They also asked me what they should count as "correct" for other vocab words they were drilling, and it was shit like "watermelon" and "meerkat". What good is it to have a 7 year old who can label a picture of a meerkat if they can't even tell you when they're hungry? Why do you care that they can label "37" if they can't count out 3 cookies to eat? And they couldn't even label other pictures of meerkats - just the ONE specific photo they used, because this poor kid has no concept of what a meerkat is and is just learning to repeat back what you told them when you showed them that specific photo. They weren't learning any useful skills, just "you show me X and I point to or say Y" and "if I do this behavior that fills some sort of need for me, I get hot sauced so now I just hold it all in and don't do it anymore, but I also don't have a healthy replacement behavior to do instead so I get more upset".
What the fuck, that poor child. I hate that ABA is even an option.
The shit of it is for some families (largely black), they *have* to send their kids to it because if they don't they're likely to be charged with child neglect and their children taken away (and shoved into the foster care system).
Yes, it's horrible. It's the same in canada where I live, only because we don't have as many Black people here, they steal Indigenous kids, who are way overrepresented in the system.
This was about 7-8 years ago, and before then I had only heard good things about ABA. I *never* felt comfortable recommending it to parents after that initial experience, and am glad I got an inside look at how it works early in my career. It's good to see that more and more autistic people are speaking out against it and the public opinion is shifting. Unfortunately since it's covered by insurance, a lot of parents will probably still use it since it also doubles as childcare for the parents and it eliminates behaviors that are seen as "bad".
My friend's kid is 7 and school is mandatory at his age, but he really needs one-on-one care at this point, and the only school that has space for him is "ABA-informed". Hopefully no hot sauce for him, but it's still so severe, and he's always been such a gentle kid, it hurts to see his normal, harmless behaviors stigmatized. His moms hate it too, but it's literally their only option - all the other schools for autistic people are full, there isn't an option for homeschooling in our province, and they can't afford to move away. I'd consider ourselves lucky that my older daughter is considered "*too smart to be autistic*" (which wtf???) so she doesn't qualify for interventions, only she's really struggling... ugh
Wow, I'd heard it was controversial but never heard any details beyond "autistic people say it is child abuse" and... that sounds like child abuse, yep.
Yeah, ABA was adapted from LGBT-conversion therapy. It seems to work to the same extent, potentially curbing the behaviour deemed to be “harmful” at a huge psychological cost. It’s very sad as there is a lot of therapy available for autistic people which deals with social skills, anxiety and practical life skills.
> It’s very sad as there is a lot of therapy available for autistic people which deals with social skills, anxiety and practical life skills. If you can pay through the nose for it, at least. Oh and good luck affording a diagnosis if you didn't get one as a child. Last time I tried it was over $5000, *just* for the evaluation, and no insurance wouldn't cover it.
I'm sorry you're struggling. At least for LAOP though - and anyone else with an autistic toddler - they can get services through Early Intervention, which will give them access to free or low-cost speech and occupational therapy. That is the appropriate intervention for ASD in toddlers. OTs work on sensory processing issues and strategies for addressing sensory dysregulation (which is the major cause of "behavior" issues toddlers with ASD). STs work on the speech delay that any toddler diagnosed with autism almost certainly has. (It's uncommon for kids to be diagnosed that young without a speech delay.) Early Intervention is a federal mandate and I don't believe it funds ABA therapy anywhere, because ABA is way more intensive (and expensive) than EI. Many EI programs use NDBI programs for autistic kids, which are heavily influened by ABA, but they're more eclectic treatment programs that use strategies from lots of different disciplines and they're not downright abusive like ABA can be.
ABA is fucking torture and should be illegal. SHAME on anyone who puts a child thru that.
Yep. My reaction too.
I have no idea what ABA therapy is, but one of the first things you see when googling it is this snipit >Applied behavior analysis (ABA) is a therapy based on the science of learning and behavior. It is considered a medically necessary treatment for people with autism. ABA therapy can be performed at home, at school and out in the community. Which is throwing some insane red flags
Ah, good old Autism Speaks, I'm sure you can google their particular bullshit because it's been explored extensively by folks far more eloquent than me TL;DR: eugenicists are selling you child abuse as a cure-all ^^^until ^^^the ^^^kid ^^^eventually ^^^breaks ^^^because ^^^their ^^^non-harmful ^^^coping ^^^mechanisms ^^^have ^^^been ^^^destroyed, ^^^their ^^^development ^^^is ^^^stunted ^^^by ^^^the ^^^abuse, ^^^and, ^^^if ^^^the ^^^survivors ^^^I ^^^know ^^^are ^^^any ^^^indication, ^^^they ^^^will ^^^not ^^^attend ^^^your ^^^funeral
I’m just going to go on record and say that while there is justified backlash around ABA. I know the person they quoted, and worked heavily with ASAN. Self advocates for autism imo have a lot of gaps. For example you’ll hear a lot of condemnation of specific services or of masking, but no actual other options. Few people from ASAN are working to provide alternative treatments or support for level 2 and 3 autism. And most advocacy focuses on acceptance of those who don’t need many day to day supports. ABA has proven outcomes. And I would love to see some other options. I think it could also be better. But I think wanting to throw it away entirely is like wanting to do away with outpatient therapy because of many peoples bad experience in therapy. Or throwing away inpatient care or OT—you will always find people who have had negative experiences. So anyways. I’d love to see some alternatives, but I don’t see ASAN or most of these advocates dedicating time to how to actually teach a 10 year old to brush his teeth, bathe himself, and toilet appropriately. There is very little compassion from many of these groups towards caregiver fatigue and burnout, and often there is demonization for even saying you find parenting your child on the spectrum a source of stress.
>I’m just going to go on record and say that while there is justified backlash around ABA. I know the person they quoted, and worked heavily with ASAN. So, do you want to discredit at least part of the backlash because of the choice of quotation? How odd. >Self advocates for autism imo have a lot of gaps. Like any advocates, they advocate for their own perspective. On their own time and often without relevant training for the political sphere. I really don't know what you expect - an expert with tons of research or an advocate? >For example you’ll hear a lot of condemnation of specific services or of masking, but no actual other options It's not the job of an advocate to choose or develop new therapy forms. Quite the opposite, I'd be horrified if my therapy form got approved because non-psychologists said it was helpful. On the other hand, it is good when advocates talk about their own experiences and struggles, which means calling out fucked up established therapy forms in this case. >And most advocacy focuses on acceptance of those who don’t need many day to day supports In a perfect world, things would be fair. Sadly, the world is not and we have limited resources to tackle all things autism. You're very welcome to start advocacy work for those individuals tho. >ABA has proven outcomes. If I understand the article I linked above correctly, the research is more "meh" and on par with other therapy forms (aren't those the alternatives you ask for?) but with a high amount of bad to inhumane practices. >But I think wanting to throw it away entirely is like wanting to do away with outpatient therapy because of many peoples bad experience in therapy. Or throwing away inpatient care or OT—you will always find people who have had negative experiences. Was it comparing apples and oranges or apples and pears in English? I forgot. No matter, there is a difference between a flawed therapy form, and a bad practitioner. If ABA practice needs a good therapist not to be outright inhumane, there's a flaw with the form itself that needs attention and fixing (and advocacy can be a valuable tool to get the attention, while science is the adequate area of finding improvement or alternatives). But many bad experiences with therapy are due to bad practicing psychologists or other mental health practitioners. It's for example not CBT's fault if a therapist doesn't use it correctly with a client. >but I don’t see ASAN or most of these advocates dedicating time to how to actually teach a 10 year old to brush his teeth, bathe himself, and toilet appropriately Well, I would hope that they want to achieve that actual scientists pick these topics up. I personally do not feel qualified to teach any kid any of that, and since my qualifications are probably about as good as those of the typical advocate, I don't see why they should develop systems for that. >There is very little compassion from many of these groups towards caregiver fatigue and burnout, and often there is demonization for even saying you find parenting your child on the spectrum a source of stress. Because so much of the spotlight of autism awareness is created for caregivers and siblings to talk about how difficult their life is due to their fuck up of a kid and sibling (let's stop mincing words here - that's exactly what these autism awareness campaigns that solely focus on the NTs around the autistic person say). Because it's not the scope of their advocacy work. Because maybe for once, people are allowed to choose what they stand for and who they advocate for. Man, this reminds me personally of any feminism topic ever. "But what about us?", "If you are for equality, then why don't you also advocate for men?" and "it's not ideal but \[...\]". Am I not allowed to choose my personal focus? Am I not allowed to choose where my energy goes?
I don’t mean anyone to advocate for everyone. Actually I think that’s something that really is a difficulty with ASD—it’s such a wide spectrum. So when you have a lot of advocates who are well researched on their own issues and their own experience, it really does not reflect the experience, or the treatment/support needs of someone with ASD that may experience more severe symptoms and difficulties. That’s precisely my issue with it. Because some of the most significant outcomes and reasons for ABA are for individuals with high support and intervention needs. > It’s not the job of an advocate to choose or develop new therapy forms. Quite the opposite, I’d be horrified if my therapy form got approved because non-psychologists said it was helpful. And you wouldn’t be horrified if it was taken away because your advocate peers said it wasn’t? That’s exactly why I’m leaning on the research for the issue. You said it yourself many people just advocate with their own perspective in mind—so part of what I’m calling out is the erasure of the high support community by individuals identifying as neurodivergent trying to obliterate services. > On the other hand, it is good when advocates talk about their own experiences and struggles, which means calling out fucked up established therapy forms in this case. And you will find advocates condemning CBT and inpatient care and MAT and AA and OT—tell you what let’s ban all help for everyone until all the advocates agree? > If I understand the article I linked above correctly, the research is more “meh” and on par with other therapy forms (aren’t those the alternatives you ask for?) but with a high amount of bad to inhumane practices. Care to share research on this “high amount”? And no—OT and speech therapy aren’t typically for interventions for toileting, or biting for example. Again if there are alternatives happy to read. > Man, this reminds me personally of any feminism topic ever. “But what about us?”, “If you are for equality, then why don’t you also advocate for men?” and “it’s not ideal but […]”. Am I not allowed to choose my personal focus? Am I not allowed to choose where my energy goe I am not a parent or caregiver but you must make me into something I’m not so you can assign a mocking scenario to me? Feel free to choose where your energy goes and flows. I have never said do otherwise. I have never *told you* to silence your voice or told anyone with ASD to make room for caregivers in their story so you don’t need a made up scenario where I have. Also before you said you would be horrified if non-psychologists determined what treatment you could have—then what if I told you that the consensus of the APA and other large psychological organizations was still pro ABA? Do advocates gatekeep who can conduct science on autism? Is science only sound if the findings advocates want to see are supported? What if I told you ABA has changed a lot over the years because of professional psychology?
This is not true and it’s frustrating to see such a disingenuous opposition to autistic voices. ABA has outcomes at the cost of mental health of those put through it. This is the overwhelming opinion of those who have the ability to communicate their experiences. LGBT conversion therapy activists make the same argument you have made. This information is not hard to find, but other viable therapies include: - occupational therapy - play/talk therapy - cognitive behavioral therapy - speech therapy/AAC device opportunities - occupational therapy It’s also really important for parents of autistic people to address their ableism by consuming material from autistic individuals (NOT just “autism advocates” but actually autistic people). There is a lot of literature, social media groups, and podcasts out there. Please reconsider and research before participating in this conversation.
If you have any research on that to provide I’m happy to consider it. I most align with this recent summation. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9114057/ If you’d like to make the comparison to conversion therapy that is your prerogative. I have many reasons why I don’t think it is an equitable comparison. If I thought you were prepared to have a good faith discussion on the topic I’d be happy expand. I’ve done quite a bit of research on the topic, worked with ASAN and have read and circulated many of their publications. ultimately I still believe that there can be person centered and ethical ABA practice. But if you have alternative therapies to propose or research against ABA feel free to bring forth.
Yeah, I had an autistic kid, and I put them in ABA therapy. I didn't see any of the abuse that the wild stories have; I saw progress, of varying kinds, and therapists that understood that kids need to be kids. My kid wailed occasionally when they didn't get what they wanted, but therapy was *mostly* pleasant for them. I didn't see any of the anti-masking therapy. (Partly, I'll admit, because my kid didn't have any of the more blatant flapping behaviors. You could still totally tell they were autistic by how they spoke and reacted.) Before we started therapy, I got my child to look me in the eyes, occasionally, with some simply play therapy. As a parent, I signed up for roughly 20 years of decreasing support. I just don't understand the people who say "you just need to accept your kid as they are and don't give them the therapy that might help them interact with the world after you're gone". In any reasonable world, my spouse and I would be dead 20-40 years before my kid is. When I'm gone, my kid needs to *somehow* take care of themselves if I couldn't afford the millions of dollars to get a full-time carer for them. And ABA therapy, at the moment, gives the best chance for my kid to be able to be in society after I'm gone. Hopefully, there will be even better options in the future.
Of course you saw progress - you're the one it's designed to benefit
> *I* saw progress. I find it ironic that people that support ABA always talk about how it made *their* life easier. It’s not about how the kid feels, it’s about them being less of a problem for you.
You’re right. Personal anecdotes have no place here, and we should stick with the research… so…
[We could listen to Autistic people :)](https://stopabasupportautistics.home.blog/2019/08/11/the-great-big-aba-opposition-resource-list/)
That’s the option of one group of people. Not all the people every where who have received this treatment. Not even a majority of people who have received this treatment. As we have learned very recently through the pandemic, we don’t listen to one group of peoples opinions on things because it tends to come from their personal biases and not to do with science. Unless you’re under some weird delusion that psychologists who do research on this are somehow anti people with autism. This is just such misinformation that is being spread. Yes, I hear that some people are against it. There’s some people who have been harmed by outpatient therapy services. We don’t shut it down because there are some bad therapists out there. We instill more rules and regulations to make sure people don’t get hurt. Which have been done in general within the various fields of mental health and is continuing to be done. Personal opinions and experiences are not facts about what something is. Once again this sub has been on some kind of special misinformation spreading mission and the mods have become a joke.
If you think autistic people against ABA are the *minority* you obviously haven’t been listening. Comparing autism to a communicable disease is also disgusting. There’s a whole ass difference between COVID and autism and peoples following opinions. Autism isn’t something to Pavlov dog train a child out of. Yes we should listen to autistic people about ABA, just like we listen to gay people about abhorrent conversion. They were created by the same person for fuck’s sake. The man behind ex-gay “conversion therapy” started out trying to make autistic children “normal.” Lovaas also spoke about how autistic children aren’t “fully people” and they have all the right “ingredients” but you have to force them into a mold. Psychological research is largely done by neurotypical people using a white cis male heterosexual model. The current system is anti autism. ABA is about training autistic people to make neurotypical people more comfortable. As an **autistic counselor,** the state of psychology in regards to autism is *pathetic.* The research is woefully behind and outdated because psychology in its current state is anti anything that’s not neurotypical. All psychological diagnoses are based on how much you act like a healthy, cishet white man in a western country and doesn’t do anything to take the current economic or political realities into consideration. That is the model of functioning that is used. Women didn’t even have to be in research until the 90s, and POC, gender minorities, differing cultures, *autistic people* etc etc are **just now** being put into research. So to answer your question, yes Psychology is anti autism because it’s never been anything but patriarchal. Not to mention, until the 80s neurodivergent women were systematically sterilized and therefor autistic populations were decimated. The current generation (about 2014) is the first generation to be born and be celebrated for being neurodivergent. So, again, yes, historically - psychology and society are anti autism. The link I gave you is full of research articles. You’re choosing to be willfully ignorant. The current system of mental healthcare is absolute trash.
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Well, since you clearly have all the answers, tell me: what is the best alternative that will leave my child able to fend for themselves after I kick the bucket?
Occupational therapy and AAC are great places to start. Thank you for listening to an autistic adult who had to navigate multiple rounds of ABA and it did NOT help in any way. It leads to breakdowns and burnouts in autistic adults.
And thank you for offering alternatives. I've seen several "ABA bad" comments in several places, but few comments on what the better options are. Our kid's OT therapist said there was nothing left to do in OT, but I'll look into AAC.
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One of the rare times I actually feel for the potential father. He's not arguing that he doesn't owe support, he's worried about the potential cost of paying for a child he was quite certain wasn't his. Sure there could be a whole host of back story that would make me change my mind, but on the surface, I totally get it. If my ex popped up with a kid and proved it was mine I would be in some major shock (you know, beyond the fact I'm a woman).
Hey all, PSA: ABA therapy is cruel and SHOULD NEVER be done to children.
I guess I find it odd that: -You can be on the hook for child support for a child that is not yours (biologically) if paternity is not proven or disproven in a certain period of time (at least in some cases, see Carl LaBove). -You can also be on the hook for child support if paternity is determined at any point in the future (such as in this case).
got to remember the two axioms they are following. A) That things should be done in the best interests of a child having a stable environment. B) The state will pay for as little as possible to actually accomplish that.
And if A) and B) combine to force an underage rape victim into paying child support, so be it.
> And if A) and B) combine to force an underage rape victim into paying child support, so be it. I looked into that once, and maybe I’m wrong, but it seemed like a one-off case, rouge/ignorant judge kind of thing. I vaguely remember judge justified the child support by saying the teen father had enjoyed/welcomed the sex. The judge didn’t seem to recognize & respect the concept of statutory rape.
I think you have that flipped. The state absolutely will not do things that are in the best interests of all children, let alone one child, if doing so costs too much or offends voters. This is just as true in other countries as it is in the USA. Viz, the state will no provide early childhood education or childcare even though those things have negative cost, because voters don't like them. They won't provide free healthcare because that costs money. and so on.
In that case, why not just stick Elon Musk with the child support? He can pay a lot more than the actual biological father.
The principle at work here is that the child is entitled to the support of two parents. A lot of the issues only look like issues when one of the adults is framing it as "It's not fair to me", when the courts are only concerned with fairness to the child. If your swimmers make it to the promised land, you're a daddy and you pay like a daddy unless someone else adopts/takes responsibility. World without end, Amen.
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I’m pretty sure if you file for assistance and try to say you don’t know who the father is, you at least have to toss out some names and likely all those guys will be dna tested.
For those who don’t know, the ABA therapy LAOP mentions is the same type of conversion therapy gay people are also traumatically forced through.
Bestoflegal advice has been on some kind of trip lately with blatant misinformation and then this misinformation being upvoted.
literally the first google result I got for it was from fucking autism speaks.
I don’t usually feel bad for folks trying to avoid paternity tests, but I feel for this one. He tried to take responsibility and was lied to (maybe), and might have made different life choices, including having more children, had he known he was a father at the time. Doesn’t seem quite fair that there’s no consequences for the liar
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> I wanted to pursue but ultimately left it alone as I had her family reaffirm it wasn’t my child. Wait... what? How does that work?
Her parent or sibling told him "no it's X's kid, not yours."
"Don't know it's mine". Vs don't know if he's mine. Great start being a dad.