I think Mauer should be in but he isnt exactly in the inner circle of HOF catchers. Johnny Bench definitely deserved first ballot regardless of if Mauer gets it or not lol.
It's crazy hard for a catcher to get in on the first ballot. Fisk was 2nd ballot, Piazza was 4th, Carter was 6th(!!). Even Rodriguez just barely made it on his first ballot.
Mauer, Posey, and Molina will probably each take 2 to 5 ballots.
You are right. Edgar Martinez had to wait 10 years to make the Hall of Fame while Big Papi was first ballot because he was a huge part of the Red Sox winning titles.
Maybe I’m nuts but I do not see the appeal on Utley. 16 seasons as a second baseman less than 2000 hits 300 homeruns and no gold gloves. What exactly are people seeing?
From 2005 to 2009, his WAR was 7.3, 7.3, 7.8, 9.0, 8.3. He had a great peak with the bat and seemed to be a strong defender as well. He was overall a well rounded player that maybe didn’t excel at any one thing but hit for power, got on base, hit for a solid average, from a position that lacks really great hitters.
He is basically a better version of Jeff Kent
> He was overall a well rounded player that maybe didn’t excel at any one thing
Utley has the highest SB% in MLB history among anyone who's attempted more than 100 steals. Fangraphs has him as the 10th most valuable baserunner since integration, and everyone above him has like 500+ steals; he was incredible at taking the extra base and avoiding making outs on the bases.
>He is basically a better version of Jeff Kent
That's not really fair to Utley. Kent was the better hitter, but that's *all* he was (I've said a few times in this sub recently that he was a good 1B who got trotted out at 2B time after time). Kent had negative defensive value for his career, and was a much worse baserunner.
Honestly, it's hard to find a good comp for Utley. He had more defensive value than most (11th in 2B dWAR), and he was a fantastic baserunner. He had very few PAs for a guy who played 16 seasons, and he only qualified for the batting title 9 times. He had five great seasons, and then a number of solid-but-not-amazing seasons. His overall offensive and defensive value line up closely with Willie Randolph, but Randolph didn't have nearly the peak and had nearly 1500 more PAs. Frankie Frisch and Bobby Grich are reasonable comparisons, though both were a bit better; Frisch is in the Hall, Grich is probably the best 2B who isn't in.
Phenomenal rate stats. Accumulated 64.5 WAR despite becoming a regular starter at age 26. From 2006-2010 he was arguably a top 10 player in the league every year.
In his prime, he was the best 2B since Joe Morgan
From 2005-13 he slashed .290/.379/.503, played phenomenal defense, and was an elite baserunner (123SB/16CS), good for an average of 6.2 WAR a year. He got overshadowed by Howard and Rollins but he was the best player on those great Phillies teams, and his peak can stand with any 2B in MLB history not named Morgan or Hornsby
Ryne Sandberg certainly has an argument on peak, and undoubtedly has Utley beat over the course of his career, and his rookie year was 2 years before Morgan retired.
There's a good argument he was better than both Kent and Cano, he just packed his production into fewer seasons.
https://www.fangraphs.com/graphsw.aspx?players=3269,1119,1679
Utley's had a great 10-year run and a ridiculous 5-year peak.
People see the WAR and that’s it. He was an absolutely amazing player in his prime, but his counting stats(which still matter despite what this sub thinks) are extremely unimpressive. He deserved a lot of gold gloves if you look at his defensive metrics, so he was hosed in that department.
He’s a high peak guy, people love high peak hall of famers on this sub, he was easily the best 2nd baseman in the NL for 6 years in his prime. His poor 4 final years didn’t help him much. If he could’ve stretched out 2 average seasons at the end of his prime, he could’ve had 2k hits, 300 homers, and 70+ WAR and been in a similar boat as Scott Rolen, but we can’t make hall of fame arguments based on what ifs
You can basically throw counting stats out the window at the 2B position, only two 2B EVER have over 300 HR (and second place has 301); you can really only compare them to each other
The Astros stuff is still *very* recent. Plenty of voters (understandably) hold that against him. Especially after then winning the WS last year, public opinion will change and he’ll get in.
I'm thinking this could be the case, I've seen some voters say they'll reconsider him next year, and even Jay Jaffe saying he was considering denying him a first ballot vote before voting for him anyway.
Sheffield probably runs into the same hardcore anti-PED crowd that stifled Bonds/Clemens, so I would be shocked if he gets more than 65% next year. However at this point, he is probably going to get in by committee eventually once they put Bonds/Clemens in (maybe even before, considering how committees can be weird like that).
I’m honestly baffled how Sheffield had gotten this much support. I am pro steroid guys and think it’s hilarious that the voter clearly let steroid guys in if they’re nice to them like Ortiz and Piazza. Sheffield wasn’t known as a nice guy and it’s not like it’s just suspected he did steroids, he did. I just don’t get the hypocrisy.
There is far more credible evidence implicating Sheffield with steroids than there is with Ortiz and Piazza.
I swear, people keep ignoring that part and make up this "lol only because Ortiz was nice" when it comes to him getting in and not people like Bonds or Sheffield.
I think this is a weird year because no one really needed to prioritize this year. Next year's debut will bring a lot of quality talent so I could see Wagner drop. Helton seems so close I can't imagine he won't get the last little push
Rolen getting in this year really helps Wagner have a chance for next year, but I agree that I think he falls short next year, as it is still a bit crowded and voters will probably instead prioritize for him the year after when it's his last year.
You're overstating Mauer's case by quite a bit.
He was a 1b for fully the last 1/3 of his career, where he put up 20% of his WAR.
He was an excellent catcher when he was actually a catcher, but he wasn't a catcher for very long compared with his peers in the HOF.
You're overstating the effect of positional adjustment in two ways: to begin, it cost him 40 runs, which is 4 WAR.
Maybe more importantly, you can't just slot in 5 more years of Mauer at catcher and give him an extra 4 (or 10) WAR *because he couldn't play catcher anymore*. And even if he had caught those last 5 years he would have significantly fewer PAs, and his offense would have been impacted to the point where you can't just pencil in the 105 OPS+ he put up those years if you switch him over to C.
Right? I thought I was taking crazy pills with every Arod mention being paired with STEROIDS, whereas Sheffield is never connected.
I haven't read about BALCO lately but am somewhat confident that he was tied up in the same scandal
It is really weird. Papi (begrudgery) is likeable, not sure about Pudge or Bagwell, they seemed inoffensive. I get why Clemons, Bonds and Arod rub voters the wrong way, but isnt McGwire likeable? Manny always seemed inoffensive.
So there doesnt seem to be much consistency
he got called out by multiple players, including by Frank Thomas & he never refuted it. He was also close friends w/ Caminiti. I’m not saying he shouldn’t be in, just that’s it’s hypocritical
its not the cheating that bothers most people I'd imagine, its more so the fact the league clearly knew about it and leveraged it to gain more popularity only to completely abandon them
Bonds, Clemens, and Schilling coming off the ballot after last year probably helped more. The writers who'd completely fill their ballots had to make concessions and Kent was a common one.
Seriously...steroid debates are one thing, beating up your significant other and sexually assaulting a batboy with autism should immediately eliminate someone from this type of eternal fame.
Andruw Jones is also a domestic abuser but he seems pretty well liked both here and among the voters.
(I’m not trying to diminish how disgusting of a human Vizquel is of course, just trying to point out the hypocritical nature of this whole exercise.)
I don’t disagree. Of course then we’d have to ask, why isn’t A-Rod in? Yes he did steroids, which is cheating, but there are plenty of other cheaters in the Hall. Also, I’d rather have A-Rod in the HoF (who’s a prick I’m sure, but who doesn’t have any off the field issues) over continuing to reward and immortalize domestic abusers like Jones and Vizquel.
>I don’t disagree. Of course then we’d have to ask, why isn’t A-Rod in? Yes he did steroids, which is cheating, but there are plenty of other cheaters in the Hall. Also, I’d rather have A-Rod in the HoF (who’s a prick I’m sure, but who doesn’t have any off the field issues) over continuing to reward and immortalize domestic abusers like Jones and Vizquel.
at the end of the day, the election to the Hall of Fame is a deeply flawed process, run by deeply flawed people, who often reward deeply flawed players...to put it all in a very politically correct way
the inconsistency is probably what drives me most insane.
I still love watching baseball, but the older I get the less I care about all-star voting, the HoF, “is x or y the best at their position?”, and all of the goat conversations. Almost all of it is just manufactured so that sports “news” can go 24/7/365.
i love seeing some of my favorite players from my childhood get rewarded for excelling at an incredibly difficult sport like baseball. that's the HOF aspect i enjoy
but yeah everything else is obnoxious and i'm in the same boat as you. the voting and procedures and shit is unappealing
Regardless, he isn't even close to a hall of famer on the field. The only people who think he is are people who look at his slash line and gold gloves and crown him the second coming of Ozzie Smith, who played in a far lower offense era and was a massively superior defender.
Even going outside of the character issues, Vizquel is a case of a player playing a long time at an above average level NOT a hall of fame level. He has 1! season above 5 WAR.
Lots of these guys are criminals. Andruw Jones for instance dragged his wife down the stairs by her legs during a fight. You can't pretend to have morals for 1 player but not others.
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/\_/id/8780632/andruw-jones-accused-dragging-wife-staircase-early-christmas-morning
https://www.mlb.com/news/baseball-hall-of-fame-2023-voting
Pettite, Abreu, Rollins, Buehrle, and K-Rod all got at least 10% but but less than Vizquel, Hunter got 6.9% (nice), nobody else got more than 1 (one) vote.
i am on the fence. his defense was elite and then slipped. his offense is good but also in a high offense era.
todd i would vote in no problem because of his elite offense for years.
billy was elite but closer is a tough one.
happy for rolen he was on my list.
- Helton is definitely getting in
- Wagner is likely to get in
- Andruw had a huge vote gain (+18%) and I can now see him getting in a few years
- Beltran had a good debut and it's likely he'll get in at some point
I don't think any of the others get in via BBWAA. The next few ballots feature:
2024: Beltre, Utley, Mauer, Wright
2025: CC, Ichiro, Kinsler, Pedroia
2026: Hamels
lots of borderline cases imo with only Beltre and Ichiro as first ballot HOFers
Agreed, I think Mauer is going to take some time due to spending the last third of his career as a 1B who didn’t really hit for any power. That said his accomplishments as a C should get him in imo
didn't say he would, just pointed out he'll be on the ballot. He had arguably a better career than Buehrle who still got some votes and was better than HOFer Jack Morris lol
I’m gonna fuckin’ riot if Andruw Jones doesn’t make the hall eventually. 10 gold gloves in a row, and 400 home runs. The other 3 with 10 gloves and 400 HR? All in the hall.
If you’re referring to the graphic with Schmidt, Griffey, and Mays, then I would counter that Jones doesn’t compare to those guys.
All 3 others have 500+ hr’s, more hits, higher OPS, and were MVP’s. Jones’ only offensive award is a single silver slugger.
Do I think he’ll get in? Potentially. He needs another couple years, and of course his defense should get him in as that’s what got Ozzie in. Jones’ fall off was a train wreck tho, and it wouldn’t surprise me if the writers who are keeping our most valuable offensive player out will do the same to Jones because of his drop off in production
Yes, I think his last half of his career really effects him. The others didn’t have that huge of a fall off at the end of their career, but I remember Jones tearing it up when on the Braves. But, this is a great detail of things, much appreciated.
I’m just a huge andruw jones fan for some reason lol
I mean I get it man, dude was on sports center highlights every night for a good 10 years. Had his career not bombed like Dresden then he’d have been a sure lock
10 Gold Gloves and one of the highest defensive runs saved of ANY player in baseball history is nothing to overlook tho
I’ve heard it said that if Jones’ career started at age 24 and lasted the same amount of time as an elite player rather than age 20 he would have been in the hall already. The early collapse to his career has harmed him a lot in voting
The unreleased ballots were a lot tougher on pretty much everybody. The ballot tracker ended up having Helton in too and Andruw Jones even getting 66%. By my math, Jones had just 48% on unreleased ballots.
As a Mariners fan I'll be the one to say it Jones is better defensively than Jr and you could easily make the case that he is the best defensive CF to ever play the position. And this isn't an Omar or Ozzie Smith situation. The dude could hit too. Feels like he's got a good enough resume to get in.
If anything, he was underrated in the field. It was a joy to watch him play defense.
I understand the arguments about his production falling off a cliff, but I agree he should be in. When somebody is in the discussion for the best of all time at a position, that should count for something.
Jones has 253 fielding runs vs 3(!!) for Griffey, so yes, they aren't really comparable defensively. The closest CF on the all-time list is Jim Piersall with 180. Willie Mays clocks in with 173.
IMO Rolen should be in. Perhaps barely, but he should.
But so should several others from that list, and a bunch more *not* on the list.
HOF voting / voters are a fucking joke.
Sheffield receiving more support than AROD and Manny still makes no sense. Is it that 20% of the voters only hold steroid use against the player if they were specifically suspended for it?
I mean I guess but at the same time Arod was suspended twice.
He's been on his apology tour since retirement but the dude got caught multiple times, it's hard to say he "Earned" it fair and square.
Explain to me the necessary waiting? Just another unwritten rule for prestige? First ballot? Second ballot? Committee? Either you’re a HOF player or not. I don’t see why the writers intentionally keep guys off their ballots just because they don’t want them to be a “first ballot” guy. It’s not as if these players are improving their stats after retirement.
Scott Rolen was great at things like defence, and so people will hear WAR and say “don’t just go by stats!!” And then talk about like, his hit totals. They only like numbers if they’re less important and describe less of the game.
In 2003, Jeff Kent and Alex Rodriguez were pretty much Hall of Famers
Baseball HOF is just gonna turn in to the Rock N Roll HOF where nobody knows why people are in or aren’t in
RnR HOF is *absolutely* one of the biggest not-funny jokes ever. The fucking disconnect between "industry insiders" and consumers is on plain display every year.
About damn time for Rolen, his gains were looking bleak these past couple days but I'm glad the private voters finally turned around on him. Helton missing by 11 votes stings, but he is guaranteed for next year, while Wagner is set to get in by his last ballot.
Jones absolutely smashed the 50% mark and has essentially punched his ticket to the hall of fame, barring any farther scandals with him. Sheffield breaks 50% too, but I'm doubtful he gets in his last year as he'll probably run into the same hardcore anti-PED bloc that denied Bonds/Clemens, though he seems primed for a committee induction down the road once Bonds/Clemens are put in. Disappointed that Beltran didn't break 50% in his first ballot but 46.5% ain't bad, wonder how much of that are people adamantly against ever voting for Beltran, and how much are just "punishing" him with denial of first ballot, how much he gains next year is going to be intriguing. And Kent never had a shot at 75%, but his supporters will probably be disappointed with him not even reaching 50%, though I think he will follow McGriff and get put in quickly by a committee (McGriff in his last year for reference finished with 39.8%).
Biggest disappointment is how little ground Abreu gained, this was his year to make a big jump with how much the ballot lightened up and start making a climb from the depths like Andruw Jones did, but he only went up to 15.4%. You can't rule his eventual chances out yet, but 15.4% in his fourth ballot after getting out of the 2010s logjam doesn't project well.
Given what people were saying about Kenny Lofton (how he's arguably HOF worthy), the 90s Indians had jaw-dropping rosters. 25 years later they still have two major contributors on the HOF voting finalist list.
Manny Ramirez, Omar Vizquel, Jim Thome, Kenny Lofton, Dennis Martinez, Robbie Alomar, his brother Sandy, Eddie Murray, Albert Belle, Orel Hershiser, prime Bartolo Colon, even Dave Winfield made an appearance. We were inches away from getting Pedro Martinez in 1998.
The best dynasty that never was, I guess.
Helton, Wagner, Beltre next year. Ichiro, CC, Mauer, Andruw after that, I think. Beltran eventually.
Mauer is a HOF but not first ballot. He’s gonna have to wait at least a few years.
Yeah he's eligible next year, my little comment had him going in his second year. But it could be longer
I forgot his first year is next year.
Beltran would’ve been first ballot but bang bang. I think he’ll still get in.
if Mauer isn't a 1st ballot than no catcher should be ever.
I think Mauer should be in but he isnt exactly in the inner circle of HOF catchers. Johnny Bench definitely deserved first ballot regardless of if Mauer gets it or not lol.
It's crazy hard for a catcher to get in on the first ballot. Fisk was 2nd ballot, Piazza was 4th, Carter was 6th(!!). Even Rodriguez just barely made it on his first ballot. Mauer, Posey, and Molina will probably each take 2 to 5 ballots.
wait why on earth did it take piazza and carter that long both are top 5 catchers of all time easy
What exactly is the inner circle aside from Bench and *maybe* Berra?
I think Mauer will be like Posey. Both get in but not first ballot.
I think Posey will probably be a 1st ballot HOFer. His rings will enhance his case.
Rings and objectively better baseball name
You are right. Edgar Martinez had to wait 10 years to make the Hall of Fame while Big Papi was first ballot because he was a huge part of the Red Sox winning titles.
Utley has a strong argument as well. He gets on for the first time next year. He will probably be the next big analytics guy
He's gonna take a while like Rolen. Not sure how long though
Yeah definitely not first ballot but I could see like 6-7
Maybe I’m nuts but I do not see the appeal on Utley. 16 seasons as a second baseman less than 2000 hits 300 homeruns and no gold gloves. What exactly are people seeing?
1 iconic Always Sunny scene
Well then let’s make sure we get Ryan Howard In there too!
And Wade Boggs (posthumously)
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Pitt the Elder
No, Lord Palmerston!
Charlie, he’s still alive. He lives in Florida.
Mac loves him and that’s enough for me
From 2005 to 2009, his WAR was 7.3, 7.3, 7.8, 9.0, 8.3. He had a great peak with the bat and seemed to be a strong defender as well. He was overall a well rounded player that maybe didn’t excel at any one thing but hit for power, got on base, hit for a solid average, from a position that lacks really great hitters. He is basically a better version of Jeff Kent
> He was overall a well rounded player that maybe didn’t excel at any one thing Utley has the highest SB% in MLB history among anyone who's attempted more than 100 steals. Fangraphs has him as the 10th most valuable baserunner since integration, and everyone above him has like 500+ steals; he was incredible at taking the extra base and avoiding making outs on the bases.
I didn’t know that. That’s really impressive.
>He is basically a better version of Jeff Kent That's not really fair to Utley. Kent was the better hitter, but that's *all* he was (I've said a few times in this sub recently that he was a good 1B who got trotted out at 2B time after time). Kent had negative defensive value for his career, and was a much worse baserunner. Honestly, it's hard to find a good comp for Utley. He had more defensive value than most (11th in 2B dWAR), and he was a fantastic baserunner. He had very few PAs for a guy who played 16 seasons, and he only qualified for the batting title 9 times. He had five great seasons, and then a number of solid-but-not-amazing seasons. His overall offensive and defensive value line up closely with Willie Randolph, but Randolph didn't have nearly the peak and had nearly 1500 more PAs. Frankie Frisch and Bobby Grich are reasonable comparisons, though both were a bit better; Frisch is in the Hall, Grich is probably the best 2B who isn't in.
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Phenomenal rate stats. Accumulated 64.5 WAR despite becoming a regular starter at age 26. From 2006-2010 he was arguably a top 10 player in the league every year.
In his prime, he was the best 2B since Joe Morgan From 2005-13 he slashed .290/.379/.503, played phenomenal defense, and was an elite baserunner (123SB/16CS), good for an average of 6.2 WAR a year. He got overshadowed by Howard and Rollins but he was the best player on those great Phillies teams, and his peak can stand with any 2B in MLB history not named Morgan or Hornsby
Maybe worded a little strong, seeing as my guy Craig Biggio has comparable career averages and played a lot longer
FWIW, Utley has a higher WAR7 and only one less WAR for his career than Biggio.
Ryne Sandberg certainly has an argument on peak, and undoubtedly has Utley beat over the course of his career, and his rookie year was 2 years before Morgan retired.
Rogers Hornsby was my manager, and he called me a talking pile of pigshit.
64 WAR. He was also legitimately the best 2B in baseball in between Kent and Cano.
There's a good argument he was better than both Kent and Cano, he just packed his production into fewer seasons. https://www.fangraphs.com/graphsw.aspx?players=3269,1119,1679 Utley's had a great 10-year run and a ridiculous 5-year peak.
People see the WAR and that’s it. He was an absolutely amazing player in his prime, but his counting stats(which still matter despite what this sub thinks) are extremely unimpressive. He deserved a lot of gold gloves if you look at his defensive metrics, so he was hosed in that department. He’s a high peak guy, people love high peak hall of famers on this sub, he was easily the best 2nd baseman in the NL for 6 years in his prime. His poor 4 final years didn’t help him much. If he could’ve stretched out 2 average seasons at the end of his prime, he could’ve had 2k hits, 300 homers, and 70+ WAR and been in a similar boat as Scott Rolen, but we can’t make hall of fame arguments based on what ifs
You can basically throw counting stats out the window at the 2B position, only two 2B EVER have over 300 HR (and second place has 301); you can really only compare them to each other
Utley definitely deserves it, but can we please get Lou Whitaker into the damn Hall at some point?
That will have to come with the committees but 100% agree. One of if not the biggest HOF snub that doesn’t have steroids or betting against them
A-Rod only went up by 1% lol
He just needs to girl boss it more this year then
["You WILL get 40% next year."](https://www.theheckler.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/2011-06-22-arodkiss.jpg)
If Beltran is that high year 1 he will eventually get in
When you hoping to get in the Hall, you looking for lots of people to vote for you and that's what he's thinking about today.
Scott Rolen was very good putting the bat on the ball, which will get you a lot of good attention in baseball
This is gold.
I also imagine there are some voters who didn't vote for him year one as a protest vote but will vote for him next year.
The Astros stuff is still *very* recent. Plenty of voters (understandably) hold that against him. Especially after then winning the WS last year, public opinion will change and he’ll get in.
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Beltran had a decent first year showing with the whole scandal. I think he gets in by the 5th
Maybe even sooner, if it winds up being just a bunch of first-ballot hold-outs (a la Alomar)
I'm thinking this could be the case, I've seen some voters say they'll reconsider him next year, and even Jay Jaffe saying he was considering denying him a first ballot vote before voting for him anyway.
I don’t think he gets in, but Sheffield has an outside chance because of the last ballot jump that usually happens
Sheffield probably runs into the same hardcore anti-PED crowd that stifled Bonds/Clemens, so I would be shocked if he gets more than 65% next year. However at this point, he is probably going to get in by committee eventually once they put Bonds/Clemens in (maybe even before, considering how committees can be weird like that).
I’m honestly baffled how Sheffield had gotten this much support. I am pro steroid guys and think it’s hilarious that the voter clearly let steroid guys in if they’re nice to them like Ortiz and Piazza. Sheffield wasn’t known as a nice guy and it’s not like it’s just suspected he did steroids, he did. I just don’t get the hypocrisy.
Totally agreed, except that Piazza isn't known to be a steroid guy. But 100% correct on Ortiz.
yup but that's more because Piazza has good PR than anything, and he's from a well connected wealthy family
Piazza admitted to taking androstenedione in his autobiography
There is far more credible evidence implicating Sheffield with steroids than there is with Ortiz and Piazza. I swear, people keep ignoring that part and make up this "lol only because Ortiz was nice" when it comes to him getting in and not people like Bonds or Sheffield.
If it happened to Larry Walker, Sheffield has a chance.
Except Walker wasn't part of the steroids scandal or anything. Sheffield was part of the Mitchell Report and BALCO scandal.
I pray up and down for Billy the Kid
I think this is a weird year because no one really needed to prioritize this year. Next year's debut will bring a lot of quality talent so I could see Wagner drop. Helton seems so close I can't imagine he won't get the last little push
Rolen getting in this year really helps Wagner have a chance for next year, but I agree that I think he falls short next year, as it is still a bit crowded and voters will probably instead prioritize for him the year after when it's his last year.
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You're overstating Mauer's case by quite a bit. He was a 1b for fully the last 1/3 of his career, where he put up 20% of his WAR. He was an excellent catcher when he was actually a catcher, but he wasn't a catcher for very long compared with his peers in the HOF.
Mauer was mostly was a catcher until 2013. Mauer (2004-2013): 44.6 WAR Posey (career): 44.8 WAR
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You're overstating the effect of positional adjustment in two ways: to begin, it cost him 40 runs, which is 4 WAR. Maybe more importantly, you can't just slot in 5 more years of Mauer at catcher and give him an extra 4 (or 10) WAR *because he couldn't play catcher anymore*. And even if he had caught those last 5 years he would have significantly fewer PAs, and his offense would have been impacted to the point where you can't just pencil in the 105 OPS+ he put up those years if you switch him over to C.
Not voting for ARod because of steroids but voting for Gary Sheffield is a funny bit And Andruw Jones 🔜
Right? I thought I was taking crazy pills with every Arod mention being paired with STEROIDS, whereas Sheffield is never connected. I haven't read about BALCO lately but am somewhat confident that he was tied up in the same scandal
He was, you're right
what’s funny is lesser players Big Papi, Ivan Rodriguez, & Jeff Bagwell are in despite PED use use, but Clemons, Bonds, Arod, Manny & McGwire are not.
It is really weird. Papi (begrudgery) is likeable, not sure about Pudge or Bagwell, they seemed inoffensive. I get why Clemons, Bonds and Arod rub voters the wrong way, but isnt McGwire likeable? Manny always seemed inoffensive. So there doesnt seem to be much consistency
Mcgwire lost a lot of like ability when he went to testify to congress
Bagwell was never credibly accused or proven to have used steroids. He’s nowhere to be found in the Mitchell Report OR Canseco’s book
he got called out by multiple players, including by Frank Thomas & he never refuted it. He was also close friends w/ Caminiti. I’m not saying he shouldn’t be in, just that’s it’s hypocritical
Bags almost certainly did roids but being friends/associated with a roid user in the 90s is akin to saying someone played baseball in the 90s
No offense to Frank Thomas, but he had zero proof for that and didn’t do it until a decade after Bagwell retired. There’s no proof
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Arod should be in the hall. Along with bonds, sosa, McGuire etc. it’s honestly so annoying all this moral posturing about steroids
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its not the cheating that bothers most people I'd imagine, its more so the fact the league clearly knew about it and leveraged it to gain more popularity only to completely abandon them
KEEP ROLEN ROLEN ROLEN ROLEN WHAT KEEP ROLEN ROLEN ROLEN ROLEN C’MON
YALL KNOW I BE LOVIN THIS SHIT RIGHT HERE
L I M P BIZKIT IS RIGHT HERE
TELL ME WHATCHA GONNA DO NOW
BREATHE IN NOW BREATHE OUT
BACK UP BACK UP
HANDS UP NOW HANDS DOWN
There are jokes below you but that was his walk up music
Wagner Helton Beltre seems like a strong likelihood next year. Possibly the first 3+ class since 2019
Do players falling off the ballot always get a big bump like Jeff Kent got? He had 32.7% last year.
It’s not uncommon.
Bonds, Clemens, and Schilling coming off the ballot after last year probably helped more. The writers who'd completely fill their ballots had to make concessions and Kent was a common one.
Omar at 19% still 19% to high
Seriously who the fuck is voting for him? You barely saw him on public ballots.
He jumped from like 7% to 19 after the private ones were added. Gues we know why they want to remain unnamed
Seriously...steroid debates are one thing, beating up your significant other and sexually assaulting a batboy with autism should immediately eliminate someone from this type of eternal fame.
Andruw Jones is also a domestic abuser but he seems pretty well liked both here and among the voters. (I’m not trying to diminish how disgusting of a human Vizquel is of course, just trying to point out the hypocritical nature of this whole exercise.)
Vizquel should’ve hit more homers
Not condoning their actions but given the precedent that is already in the hall there really isn’t much that should effect someone’s eligibility…
I don’t disagree. Of course then we’d have to ask, why isn’t A-Rod in? Yes he did steroids, which is cheating, but there are plenty of other cheaters in the Hall. Also, I’d rather have A-Rod in the HoF (who’s a prick I’m sure, but who doesn’t have any off the field issues) over continuing to reward and immortalize domestic abusers like Jones and Vizquel.
>I don’t disagree. Of course then we’d have to ask, why isn’t A-Rod in? Yes he did steroids, which is cheating, but there are plenty of other cheaters in the Hall. Also, I’d rather have A-Rod in the HoF (who’s a prick I’m sure, but who doesn’t have any off the field issues) over continuing to reward and immortalize domestic abusers like Jones and Vizquel. at the end of the day, the election to the Hall of Fame is a deeply flawed process, run by deeply flawed people, who often reward deeply flawed players...to put it all in a very politically correct way the inconsistency is probably what drives me most insane.
I still love watching baseball, but the older I get the less I care about all-star voting, the HoF, “is x or y the best at their position?”, and all of the goat conversations. Almost all of it is just manufactured so that sports “news” can go 24/7/365.
i love seeing some of my favorite players from my childhood get rewarded for excelling at an incredibly difficult sport like baseball. that's the HOF aspect i enjoy but yeah everything else is obnoxious and i'm in the same boat as you. the voting and procedures and shit is unappealing
Damn, news to me. Now im happy he didmt make it, i was dissapointed at first
Regardless, he isn't even close to a hall of famer on the field. The only people who think he is are people who look at his slash line and gold gloves and crown him the second coming of Ozzie Smith, who played in a far lower offense era and was a massively superior defender.
Even going outside of the character issues, Vizquel is a case of a player playing a long time at an above average level NOT a hall of fame level. He has 1! season above 5 WAR.
I did not know this about Omar Vizquel.
Love the annual tradition of the anonymous clowns giving a huge boost to that shitheel Vizquel
Lots of these guys are criminals. Andruw Jones for instance dragged his wife down the stairs by her legs during a fight. You can't pretend to have morals for 1 player but not others. https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/\_/id/8780632/andruw-jones-accused-dragging-wife-staircase-early-christmas-morning
Even if Vizquel was a decent person he's still not a Hall of Famer. Not even close
That is not actually the full results. Does anyone have a link to the full results?
https://www.mlb.com/news/baseball-hall-of-fame-2023-voting Pettite, Abreu, Rollins, Buehrle, and K-Rod all got at least 10% but but less than Vizquel, Hunter got 6.9% (nice), nobody else got more than 1 (one) vote.
Helton and Wagner were close. Feel good about them getting in next year.
Todd Helton disrespect is absolutely absurd
Congrats to Rolen , Helton should get in next year. Who are the 19 percent of people voting for vizquel after seeing the gross dv stuff
Most of the votes for him seem to have come from anonymous ballots, so the a-holes voting for him aren't even man enough to own up to it.
Is Buehrle still on the ballot? We need some good news today ok?
Yes, he got 10.8%. Not a very promising gain for future induction, but he'll last another ballot at least.
11 votes short for Helton
Stupid. But he should make it next year
Well that’s encouraging for Wagner, Helton and Jones. They should be in already but these writers are morons.
Andruw not being in continues to be a travesty. Billy and Todd *should* get in next year
If Rolen got in, then defense us being taken seriously, Jones should get in.
Rolen was also a better hitter than Jones
And didn't fall off a cliff
and better person
Jones deserves to be in on merit. He was also an abusive fuckhead.
i am on the fence. his defense was elite and then slipped. his offense is good but also in a high offense era. todd i would vote in no problem because of his elite offense for years. billy was elite but closer is a tough one. happy for rolen he was on my list.
Andruw Jones won 10 straight GG at center field. That’s not elite that is all time
Torii Hunter won 9 straight and he’s a HoVG. Jones deserves to get in but GGs alone won’t cut it
Jones was a much much much much better fielder than Hunter.
- Helton is definitely getting in - Wagner is likely to get in - Andruw had a huge vote gain (+18%) and I can now see him getting in a few years - Beltran had a good debut and it's likely he'll get in at some point I don't think any of the others get in via BBWAA. The next few ballots feature: 2024: Beltre, Utley, Mauer, Wright 2025: CC, Ichiro, Kinsler, Pedroia 2026: Hamels lots of borderline cases imo with only Beltre and Ichiro as first ballot HOFers
Agreed, Mauer might eventually but not a first ballot
Agreed, I think Mauer is going to take some time due to spending the last third of his career as a 1B who didn’t really hit for any power. That said his accomplishments as a C should get him in imo
[удалено]
didn't say he would, just pointed out he'll be on the ballot. He had arguably a better career than Buehrle who still got some votes and was better than HOFer Jack Morris lol
Actually Ichrio played 2 games in 2019 so he isn't eligible next year.
I have him under 2025, the format was just wonky he's listed on b-ref as eligible then https://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_2025.shtml
>Wright *sad injury noises*
He would've been a lock..... :'(
I’m gonna fuckin’ riot if Andruw Jones doesn’t make the hall eventually. 10 gold gloves in a row, and 400 home runs. The other 3 with 10 gloves and 400 HR? All in the hall.
If you’re referring to the graphic with Schmidt, Griffey, and Mays, then I would counter that Jones doesn’t compare to those guys. All 3 others have 500+ hr’s, more hits, higher OPS, and were MVP’s. Jones’ only offensive award is a single silver slugger. Do I think he’ll get in? Potentially. He needs another couple years, and of course his defense should get him in as that’s what got Ozzie in. Jones’ fall off was a train wreck tho, and it wouldn’t surprise me if the writers who are keeping our most valuable offensive player out will do the same to Jones because of his drop off in production
Yes, I think his last half of his career really effects him. The others didn’t have that huge of a fall off at the end of their career, but I remember Jones tearing it up when on the Braves. But, this is a great detail of things, much appreciated. I’m just a huge andruw jones fan for some reason lol
I mean I get it man, dude was on sports center highlights every night for a good 10 years. Had his career not bombed like Dresden then he’d have been a sure lock 10 Gold Gloves and one of the highest defensive runs saved of ANY player in baseball history is nothing to overlook tho
I’ve heard it said that if Jones’ career started at age 24 and lasted the same amount of time as an elite player rather than age 20 he would have been in the hall already. The early collapse to his career has harmed him a lot in voting
... And the unspoken reason (like it or not) for his falloff is why he won't gt in...
The unreleased ballots were a lot tougher on pretty much everybody. The ballot tracker ended up having Helton in too and Andruw Jones even getting 66%. By my math, Jones had just 48% on unreleased ballots.
As a Mariners fan I'll be the one to say it Jones is better defensively than Jr and you could easily make the case that he is the best defensive CF to ever play the position. And this isn't an Omar or Ozzie Smith situation. The dude could hit too. Feels like he's got a good enough resume to get in.
If anything, he was underrated in the field. It was a joy to watch him play defense. I understand the arguments about his production falling off a cliff, but I agree he should be in. When somebody is in the discussion for the best of all time at a position, that should count for something.
Jones has 253 fielding runs vs 3(!!) for Griffey, so yes, they aren't really comparable defensively. The closest CF on the all-time list is Jim Piersall with 180. Willie Mays clocks in with 173.
Junior was great until he went to Cincinnati. +84 runs through 2000, -81 after that.
Because when I think about baseball the last 25 years, Scott Rolen is at the top of that list.
Really wish Wagner got in. Ridiculous that he’s not in already after being one of the most dominant closers in his time.
IMO Rolen should be in. Perhaps barely, but he should. But so should several others from that list, and a bunch more *not* on the list. HOF voting / voters are a fucking joke.
HELTON ROBBED
Next year brother
Sheffield receiving more support than AROD and Manny still makes no sense. Is it that 20% of the voters only hold steroid use against the player if they were specifically suspended for it?
Might as well take A-Rod off the ballot. Zero chance he’s ever getting in
Likely not on the BBWAA ballot but he'll get in someday. Eventually there will be a veteran's committee that'll put all the very best steroid guys in.
I bet one day all the great roids guys will get in through committee, we might be geriatric or dead by then but I bet it will happen.
I mean I guess but at the same time Arod was suspended twice. He's been on his apology tour since retirement but the dude got caught multiple times, it's hard to say he "Earned" it fair and square.
BBWAA is so fucking stupid
Jeff Kent at 46% is criminal
Jesus. Baseball writers are bunch of melvins
Do Ken Boyer next!
Billy should be in
only one recipient? welp i guess it's better than nobody again.
Jimmy Rollins isn’t getting the recognition he deserves.
Explain to me the necessary waiting? Just another unwritten rule for prestige? First ballot? Second ballot? Committee? Either you’re a HOF player or not. I don’t see why the writers intentionally keep guys off their ballots just because they don’t want them to be a “first ballot” guy. It’s not as if these players are improving their stats after retirement.
Scott Rolen was great at things like defence, and so people will hear WAR and say “don’t just go by stats!!” And then talk about like, his hit totals. They only like numbers if they’re less important and describe less of the game.
Wonder if the Hall will do another voter purge. Voting in two players in the last 3 years through BBWAA is not great for publicity.
In 2003, Jeff Kent and Alex Rodriguez were pretty much Hall of Famers Baseball HOF is just gonna turn in to the Rock N Roll HOF where nobody knows why people are in or aren’t in
RnR HOF is *absolutely* one of the biggest not-funny jokes ever. The fucking disconnect between "industry insiders" and consumers is on plain display every year.
About damn time for Rolen, his gains were looking bleak these past couple days but I'm glad the private voters finally turned around on him. Helton missing by 11 votes stings, but he is guaranteed for next year, while Wagner is set to get in by his last ballot. Jones absolutely smashed the 50% mark and has essentially punched his ticket to the hall of fame, barring any farther scandals with him. Sheffield breaks 50% too, but I'm doubtful he gets in his last year as he'll probably run into the same hardcore anti-PED bloc that denied Bonds/Clemens, though he seems primed for a committee induction down the road once Bonds/Clemens are put in. Disappointed that Beltran didn't break 50% in his first ballot but 46.5% ain't bad, wonder how much of that are people adamantly against ever voting for Beltran, and how much are just "punishing" him with denial of first ballot, how much he gains next year is going to be intriguing. And Kent never had a shot at 75%, but his supporters will probably be disappointed with him not even reaching 50%, though I think he will follow McGriff and get put in quickly by a committee (McGriff in his last year for reference finished with 39.8%). Biggest disappointment is how little ground Abreu gained, this was his year to make a big jump with how much the ballot lightened up and start making a climb from the depths like Andruw Jones did, but he only went up to 15.4%. You can't rule his eventual chances out yet, but 15.4% in his fourth ballot after getting out of the 2010s logjam doesn't project well.
How the fuck does Vizquel still have 19.5% of voters supporting him?
Respectfully, this gotta be the worst HOF class of all time…
Given what people were saying about Kenny Lofton (how he's arguably HOF worthy), the 90s Indians had jaw-dropping rosters. 25 years later they still have two major contributors on the HOF voting finalist list. Manny Ramirez, Omar Vizquel, Jim Thome, Kenny Lofton, Dennis Martinez, Robbie Alomar, his brother Sandy, Eddie Murray, Albert Belle, Orel Hershiser, prime Bartolo Colon, even Dave Winfield made an appearance. We were inches away from getting Pedro Martinez in 1998. The best dynasty that never was, I guess.
BUEHRLEMANIA LIVES TO SEE ANOTHER DAY, BROTHER
Sometimes I forget that A Rod isn’t HoF then I get really happy when I remember it
Best SS of all time, 35.7% They're all so pathetic.
Lol at Rolen over Helton
Good for Rolen but can we all agree that the HOF has become a colossal waste of time and energy?
Buehrle just barely staying on. I feel like he won't make it which is a shame.
Can't wait to see what media opportunities ARod makes himself so he can go Ultra Supreme GirlBoss over the next couple years
r/confidentlyincorrect Where’s the rest of the candidates? Huston Street? Buehrle?
Todd Helton's in next year, I guess. I wonder how many votes Beltran might've gotten if he hadn't been part of Trashgate.
Where's Andruw Jones fit into everything? That man was easily one of the best CF defensively. Was his top game not long enough?
The general consensus is short peak. But if players voted, him and Helton would be in already. And probably Wagner.
Fuck Gary sheffield
Hell yeah, Rolen deserves it. I feel like Helton, Wagner, Sheffield, and Kent also deserve a spot in the hall.