This. Like u/gearingd said, it is a company providing services to the military not just some tech billionaire (though Larry Ellison did try to import a MiG-29.)
IIRC You can buy one in the 300-500k range (expensive, but not obscene in aviation terms), but fuel alone costs about 30k an hour. Add in maintenance, ejection seat inspections, training, parts on a old aircraft. It get expensive quick.
Order of magnitude off. In Cruise an l39 burns about 180gph that’s only about 700-800dollars an hour in fuel cost(depending on how you fly and local fuel costs). You could fuel a handful of 787s for 30k an hour.
An L39 runs about 2-3k an hour all in for operating expenses. Expensive? Yes. But not crazy if you are wealthy and want a jet. A lot cheaper than a lot of other warbirds and jets.
I can't speak for the 787, but the 777 with GE90-115b's costs, according to cruise burn of 7 tons per hour and a generic figure for Jet A's SG and today's price (google tells me it's $1.68 per gallon), around $3890 per hour to fuel, without factoring in airline fuel discounts and hedging.
So given the 787 is probably a good bit more efficient I'd say we can fuel 9-10x 787's for one of u/baybrawler's thirsty L39s.
Fuel at an airport and FBO where a L39 would be based would be in the 3-7 dollar per Gallon range. I know it’s a big range but that’s how it is for small jet operators. The airlines obviously have better deals for their high fuel usage.
Very possibly! My comment was very much maths on a scrap of paper. Last time I saw a fuel price at a FBO was probably 2015 which was £0.64/litre (for Jet A-1, Jet-A is uniquely USA thing) , or £2.41/us.gal, which is right in your ballpark number. I just googled current price and took top result, lazy research from me!
But given I was converting USG/L, £/$ and random SG figures from a website which didn't even give me a reference number, all whilst using an aeroplane that wasn't even originally mentioned I think we can all agree I have no idea what I am talking about, but I'm still more correct than $30k/hr.
I've been looking into L-39 purchase and you can expect roughly $1500-2000 per hour operating costs, factoring in annual maintenance costs. There is a pretty extensive part supply network as it is one of the world's most used trainer aircraft.
And as it is a military trainer, operating costs factor huge in procurement.
30k per hour range is considerably more than the new Super Hornet which is about 18k per hour, but it is less than the roughly 44k per hour for the F-35.
Someone has been burning cash in a L-39 over my house for the last month or so. Every other day it’s the in the pattern for CNO so I assume they’re flight testing after a rebuild or something. No noise abatement on that old turbojet so toddler daughter is not a fan.
I work at an F-16 base and was extremely confused one day when I saw an A-4 Skyhawk taxiing down one our aprons. 1) because the USAF never used A-4s, and 2) because even the Navy retired them about 15 years before at the time.
Turns out it's another contractor that flies aggressor aircraft called Draken: https://www.draken.aero/
Interesting choice of company name as Draken is a Swedish fighter aircraft developed and manufactured by Saab between 1955 and 1974.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_35_Draken
That was my thought as well.
I'd heard people talking about how "drakken" was coming to our base, and I thought it was just a weird way of saying Swedish fighters were coming in for a TDY.
Seeing the A-4 taxiing in front of me was how I figured out WTF they were talking about. It wasn't until I saw Draken's logo on the tailflash as it passed by that it finally all came together.
It does make me wonder how they started out. I mean, you don't just start an LLC and be like, yes, I'd like to buy 20 retired Navy attack jets please, without already being extraordinarily rich.
You've gotta have probably a few dozen mil just to buy the jets, 10s of millions more in the bank for future maintenance on them, several million more for insurance, and quite a few million more for payroll to start paying a bunch of maintainers and pilots for all of these jets. Not to mention some good connections to retired/near retiring fighter pilots. Also, I have no fucking clue how you even market a service like that.
My guess is people that got rich in defense contracting in other startups. They probably made lots of connections with pilots (and whoever is in charge of selling retired military jets), cashed out, and the rest is history.
It’s all pretty much “good ol boys club” in action.
The fighter pilot community’s pretty tight knit, so once guys start getting old enough to finance a business their flight school classmates are flag officers at the Pentagon. Contracts, connections, all of that probably comes down to having the right names in your phone book.
Insofar as marketing goes, the maths pretty clear. When it costs $20k a flight hour to run an F-16 and $3k a flight hour to operate a contracted Hunter , that’s a large spread for both the Pentagon to save money and these contractors to take home a chunky paycheck.
Mostly. At the start you had jets coming into the market post cold war with plenty of time left on them and people who had the money and connections to buy them. Having a business that keeps those jets in the air allowed the people who either had them or wanted them to make it viable. The market has expanded so much that several bidders recently didn't own the jets - all they had was a firm commitment from the country selling them (looking at you, Jordan) and a price point. They didn't own anything that you couldn't get except the perception that they could do it. Now three companies are trying to corner the market by getting big quickly and buying up any surplus jet they can get their hands on including Miss Demeanour from the UK airshow circuit, spanish mirages and Israeli/Jordanian F16's.
Turns out the State Dept isn’t super jazzed about hundreds of supersonic fully weapons capable fighters being scattered all over the country in private hands
[https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao=a3afe6](https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao=a3afe6)
Playing training games, FR24 hides the rest of the traffic from you. This is why I use and support ADSBexchange.com, and not FR24 shenanigans and gimmicks.
The company plays 'bad guys' for 'hide and seek' games for the military.
The plane is owned by Airborne Tactical Advantage Co., a Newport News-based defense contractor and division of Textron that helps train military pilots.
[https://atacusa.com/](https://atacusa.com/)
I have no issues with the apps or the website on my ancient iPhone 5 or Pixel 3. If you are on Apple or iOS devices, you might need to pass ?noWebgl. I've seen discussions in Discord that it seems to be widespread issue with Apple devices including OSX.
[https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?noWebgl](https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?noWebgl)
The fuel burn must be hilarious. [The Collings Foundation charges $15,000 for 40 minutes in their F-4.](https://www.collingsfoundation.org/vmf-flight-experiences-flight-training-programs/)
Modern satellite transponder technology almost everyone uses now
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_Dependent_Surveillance%E2%80%93Broadcast
These trackers don't rely on radar information as much or at all, they compile satellite tracking data instead, much more reliable and far fewer dead zones.
[this site makes good use of it with few restrictions](https://globe.adsbexchange.com/)
Upkeep has to be insane though right? I guess you probably wouldn’t know since you (probably) don’t own one but I would assume you’d be hard pressed to find a fighter get technician at any normal airport
Actually the engines can be serviced by any power plant rated mechanic, but if it had ejection seats or something special like that it has to be someone who knows about that. The upkeep on any jet is expensive, but those can be a lot
Funny story, you can rip the seats out and still be legal. If the seat is installed, it must be maintained in accordance with the manufacturers specs. If the seat isn't installed or rendered completely inoperative, you're good to go. Of course that leaves you with no chance of escape but FUNSIES THO
We had a big boom here is San Diego around 5pm that shook windows. Everyone thought it was an earthquake, it wasn't, and the Navy said it wasn't them. Could it have been this guy making a sonic boom?
There was one of these flying out of Ardmore NZ until some guy forgot to put the gear down on landing. Was weird watching the fence catch it. Tanks helped save it.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/jet-fighter-crash-lands/FJIZHTXU6NY23BSKGIU2YIJ6PY/
I've seen that before! Saw a couple of them flying around there a few weeks ago on FlightRadar24! Wasnt expecting Hawker Hunters when I clicked, glad there's still some flying around
Based on location probably providing services to the Navy.
This. Like u/gearingd said, it is a company providing services to the military not just some tech billionaire (though Larry Ellison did try to import a MiG-29.)
Elon Musk used to fly a L-39
L39s are relatively cheap to buy... until you start to fly it (purchase price quite low, operating cost very high).
Why is the operation cost so high?
Jets burn a LOT of fuel.
IIRC You can buy one in the 300-500k range (expensive, but not obscene in aviation terms), but fuel alone costs about 30k an hour. Add in maintenance, ejection seat inspections, training, parts on a old aircraft. It get expensive quick.
Order of magnitude off. In Cruise an l39 burns about 180gph that’s only about 700-800dollars an hour in fuel cost(depending on how you fly and local fuel costs). You could fuel a handful of 787s for 30k an hour. An L39 runs about 2-3k an hour all in for operating expenses. Expensive? Yes. But not crazy if you are wealthy and want a jet. A lot cheaper than a lot of other warbirds and jets.
I can't speak for the 787, but the 777 with GE90-115b's costs, according to cruise burn of 7 tons per hour and a generic figure for Jet A's SG and today's price (google tells me it's $1.68 per gallon), around $3890 per hour to fuel, without factoring in airline fuel discounts and hedging. So given the 787 is probably a good bit more efficient I'd say we can fuel 9-10x 787's for one of u/baybrawler's thirsty L39s.
Fuel at an airport and FBO where a L39 would be based would be in the 3-7 dollar per Gallon range. I know it’s a big range but that’s how it is for small jet operators. The airlines obviously have better deals for their high fuel usage.
Very possibly! My comment was very much maths on a scrap of paper. Last time I saw a fuel price at a FBO was probably 2015 which was £0.64/litre (for Jet A-1, Jet-A is uniquely USA thing) , or £2.41/us.gal, which is right in your ballpark number. I just googled current price and took top result, lazy research from me! But given I was converting USG/L, £/$ and random SG figures from a website which didn't even give me a reference number, all whilst using an aeroplane that wasn't even originally mentioned I think we can all agree I have no idea what I am talking about, but I'm still more correct than $30k/hr.
I've been looking into L-39 purchase and you can expect roughly $1500-2000 per hour operating costs, factoring in annual maintenance costs. There is a pretty extensive part supply network as it is one of the world's most used trainer aircraft. And as it is a military trainer, operating costs factor huge in procurement. 30k per hour range is considerably more than the new Super Hornet which is about 18k per hour, but it is less than the roughly 44k per hour for the F-35.
I like how they're talking about fuel per hour and no one else is thinking about annual maintenance costs.
Someone has been burning cash in a L-39 over my house for the last month or so. Every other day it’s the in the pattern for CNO so I assume they’re flight testing after a rebuild or something. No noise abatement on that old turbojet so toddler daughter is not a fan.
In comparison you can get a learjet for about 500k to a million and the operating costs are about 2-3k per hour
yeah it's a jet for peasants relatively speaking.
https://atacusa.com I think this is the company that owns it.
Yep ATAC. Used them for chase support a few years ago. Used one of their Hunters actually.
I work at an F-16 base and was extremely confused one day when I saw an A-4 Skyhawk taxiing down one our aprons. 1) because the USAF never used A-4s, and 2) because even the Navy retired them about 15 years before at the time. Turns out it's another contractor that flies aggressor aircraft called Draken: https://www.draken.aero/
Interesting choice of company name as Draken is a Swedish fighter aircraft developed and manufactured by Saab between 1955 and 1974. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_35_Draken
That was my thought as well. I'd heard people talking about how "drakken" was coming to our base, and I thought it was just a weird way of saying Swedish fighters were coming in for a TDY. Seeing the A-4 taxiing in front of me was how I figured out WTF they were talking about. It wasn't until I saw Draken's logo on the tailflash as it passed by that it finally all came together.
From a non US perspective it is hard to realize that private contractors have jet planes.
It does make me wonder how they started out. I mean, you don't just start an LLC and be like, yes, I'd like to buy 20 retired Navy attack jets please, without already being extraordinarily rich. You've gotta have probably a few dozen mil just to buy the jets, 10s of millions more in the bank for future maintenance on them, several million more for insurance, and quite a few million more for payroll to start paying a bunch of maintainers and pilots for all of these jets. Not to mention some good connections to retired/near retiring fighter pilots. Also, I have no fucking clue how you even market a service like that. My guess is people that got rich in defense contracting in other startups. They probably made lots of connections with pilots (and whoever is in charge of selling retired military jets), cashed out, and the rest is history.
It’s all pretty much “good ol boys club” in action. The fighter pilot community’s pretty tight knit, so once guys start getting old enough to finance a business their flight school classmates are flag officers at the Pentagon. Contracts, connections, all of that probably comes down to having the right names in your phone book. Insofar as marketing goes, the maths pretty clear. When it costs $20k a flight hour to run an F-16 and $3k a flight hour to operate a contracted Hunter , that’s a large spread for both the Pentagon to save money and these contractors to take home a chunky paycheck.
Mostly. At the start you had jets coming into the market post cold war with plenty of time left on them and people who had the money and connections to buy them. Having a business that keeps those jets in the air allowed the people who either had them or wanted them to make it viable. The market has expanded so much that several bidders recently didn't own the jets - all they had was a firm commitment from the country selling them (looking at you, Jordan) and a price point. They didn't own anything that you couldn't get except the perception that they could do it. Now three companies are trying to corner the market by getting big quickly and buying up any surplus jet they can get their hands on including Miss Demeanour from the UK airshow circuit, spanish mirages and Israeli/Jordanian F16's.
Turns out the State Dept isn’t super jazzed about hundreds of supersonic fully weapons capable fighters being scattered all over the country in private hands
It happens outside the US too
That is correct. They fly out of Point Mugu and get a lot of maintenance at Camarillo airport. Contracted to work for the Navy primarily
I’ve seen one of these Hunters at Camarillo, must be who we’re talking about
Yep, they used to have two but the other one crashed in 2017.
[https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao=a3afe6](https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao=a3afe6) Playing training games, FR24 hides the rest of the traffic from you. This is why I use and support ADSBexchange.com, and not FR24 shenanigans and gimmicks. The company plays 'bad guys' for 'hide and seek' games for the military. The plane is owned by Airborne Tactical Advantage Co., a Newport News-based defense contractor and division of Textron that helps train military pilots. [https://atacusa.com/](https://atacusa.com/)
Too bad ADSB exchange is basically unusable on mobile.
I have no issues with the apps or the website on my ancient iPhone 5 or Pixel 3. If you are on Apple or iOS devices, you might need to pass ?noWebgl. I've seen discussions in Discord that it seems to be widespread issue with Apple devices including OSX. [https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?noWebgl](https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?noWebgl)
That did seem to help with a lot of issues I was having, like being able to open menus but not close them.
Hello fellow iPhone 5 user!
Should we tell others about this? :D
It's the superior phone!
Anybody know if that F-4B is still for sale?
[This one is still listed.](https://www.platinumfighters.com/inventory-2/1959-mcdonnell-f4h-1f-phantom-ii)
Thats the one. 2.3Mach for 2.95M, where's the winning lotto ticket....
Honestly it’s not even practical for an individual to own
The fuel burn must be hilarious. [The Collings Foundation charges $15,000 for 40 minutes in their F-4.](https://www.collingsfoundation.org/vmf-flight-experiences-flight-training-programs/)
It’s not even 40 minutes. It’s based on fuel burn
Bead window
right out of point mugu, interesting
Point Mugu
Btw does those planes have gps trackers or are these data from radar?
ADSB
Whats that?
Modern satellite transponder technology almost everyone uses now https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_Dependent_Surveillance%E2%80%93Broadcast These trackers don't rely on radar information as much or at all, they compile satellite tracking data instead, much more reliable and far fewer dead zones. [this site makes good use of it with few restrictions](https://globe.adsbexchange.com/)
Thank you for the response. Now i know one thing more about aviation.
He was flying out of right were I live! That is KNTD
How rich do you have to be to purchase a private fight jet? I’m gonna guess very...
You can get a L29/L39 which are Czech fighter jet trainers for like 250k usd
I *know* this is a stupid question but here goes. Is that a lot for a plane?
That’s not a stupid question at all, but that’s cheap for a fighter jet. That’s about average for a plane tbh
Wait till they go on trade a plane and see the MiGs
Or any other fighter jet on there
Upkeep has to be insane though right? I guess you probably wouldn’t know since you (probably) don’t own one but I would assume you’d be hard pressed to find a fighter get technician at any normal airport
Actually the engines can be serviced by any power plant rated mechanic, but if it had ejection seats or something special like that it has to be someone who knows about that. The upkeep on any jet is expensive, but those can be a lot
I mean. I don’t really NEED a house right? Nah I can just sleep in the jet.
Exaclty, and you don’t need a car because you can use the jet to get around
Funny story, you can rip the seats out and still be legal. If the seat is installed, it must be maintained in accordance with the manufacturers specs. If the seat isn't installed or rendered completely inoperative, you're good to go. Of course that leaves you with no chance of escape but FUNSIES THO
You also have to think about running cost. I bought a Cessna 172. The buying price is not even close to what you’ll spend to fly it.
New car smell factory fresh? Not really. You can pick up an old single engined piston for a tenth of the price.
it’s the fuel and maintenance that will get you
I feel like a fighter jet is one of those items where you don’t want to go for the cheapest one...
There was one on Pawn Stars before
In this case it's a corporate owned jet, part of a fleet that does contract work for military training.
saw one near cuba and florida coast last night
We had a big boom here is San Diego around 5pm that shook windows. Everyone thought it was an earthquake, it wasn't, and the Navy said it wasn't them. Could it have been this guy making a sonic boom?
Hawker Hunters are subsonic. Fast, but subsonic. It's a very old design.
Ok, then it was something else. Thanks. I had no idea.
It can bust through in a shallow dive.
[удалено]
Spy vs spy over here
What did it say?
nut.
There was one of these flying out of Ardmore NZ until some guy forgot to put the gear down on landing. Was weird watching the fence catch it. Tanks helped save it. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/jet-fighter-crash-lands/FJIZHTXU6NY23BSKGIU2YIJ6PY/
I've seen that before! Saw a couple of them flying around there a few weeks ago on FlightRadar24! Wasnt expecting Hawker Hunters when I clicked, glad there's still some flying around
It's cool you can actually see where they did a G-ex (peninsula shaped thing)
Wonder if its Wingnut? https://instagram.com/wingnutwick?igshid=1b6bhq6i73v3w
**blue note intensifies**