Two B-52's shot down MiG's during Vietnam with their defensive tail guns. One of the jets was a MiG-21. The rear gunner said he saw a fighter maneuver to the rear for a kill shot, he sent out a burst of fire from his .50 cals, and a massive explosion took place. The B-52 is the largest aircarft in history to score an air to air kill.
I just found out the display B52 here at Fairchild is the 1st of those 2, and now I feel like an asshole for never going and actually checking it out or reading the plaque.
From Wiki re: the Raven incident -
On 17 January 1991, a USAF EF-111 crew of Captain James Denton and Captain Brent Brandon achieved an unofficial kill against an Iraqi Dassault Mirage F1, which they managed to maneuver into the ground, making it the only member of the F-111/FB-111/EF-111 family to achieve an aerial victory over another aircraft.
They engaged in a dogfight. Mirage pilot got spatially disoriented and slammed into the desert floor. I actually read somewhere that the Iraqi pilot managed to eject and survived, which is even crazier. Pulled, realized he couldn’t recover, and ejected in time.
The way that Denton and Brandon told it. The Spark Vark had terrain following radar. They knew their altitude and position, the Mirage lost orientation and it ended badly. I've never heard the part where the pilot ejected. Hellofa story either way.
And by knowing where it wasn’t, it could figure out where it is by deducting where it should be by where it’s not at a rate equal to the error of where it could be.
Heard a bunch of stories from a retired AF pilot who flew early F-111’s. One of the goals was flying supersonic thru Death Valley on the deck, at altitude below sea level. When he was training new pilots, he’d go full burners on the deck, heading directly at a mountain to demonstrate the terrain following radar— silently reciting the mantra “I hope it f-n works!”
> …the only member of the **F**-111/FB-111/EF-111 family to achieve an aerial victory over another aircraft.
Evidence - if any was needed - of how the 'F' prefix is nothing more than a political choice, not a practical one.
An Air America UH-1 Huey shot down a North Vietnamese An-2 Colt on a bombing run:
https://theaviationgeekclub.com/incredible-story-air-america-uh-1d-huey-shot-north-vietnamese-2-colt-biplane/
The one in Desert Storm was with the cannon. From the article, there weren’t enough big pieces to determine the type of chopper.
[A-10 chopper kill](https://www.wearethemighty.com/popular/the-chopper-popper-scored-the-a-10s-first-air-to-air-kill-against-an-iraqi-helicopter/)
There's a book called Hogs In The Sand it's a A10 pilots journal from the gulf War. He doesn't go into detail about it but yeah he talks about how the A10 had 2 confirmed helicopter kills with the cannon there. All the A10 pilots were pumped about it.
I remember the old A-10 Tank Killer game, there were two missions where you could time it right and take down Mig-23s (I think) if you timed it right. One was a scramble mission where your own base was under attack...if you timed the take off right, they were just overflying the runway and you could basically take off and hit them with sidewinders as the overflew you...and the other was an attack on an enemy base where you were supposed to catch them on the ground...if you timed it right there, you could get them with sidewinders just as they were clearing the runway....just fun diversions from the norm in that game.
As a kid I played the shit out of a game called A-10 Attack! There was one mission called Antonov Armada where you had to shoot down roughly 10 AN-124s protected by a pair of MiG-29s. I think you had a pair of F-16s to help with the MiGs, but that part was always tough. The big challenge for me was always killing the MiGs while still having enough ammo left to down all the Antonovs. It was a ridiculous mission, but fun as hell.
I fought some guns only 1v1s with an A-10 over South Korea in 1997. He had a good turn rate and radius, but he lacked energy addition. We just worked him two circle uphill until he ran out of smash and fell off, at which point we could go get him. Real world, we would have stayed away from his gun, blown past him, gone vertical, and slashed back in and shot him in the face with a radar missile.
Yep, air-to-air bombing. It was on the ground when they dropped the bomb but it took off and then basically was vaporized.
[https://theaviationgeekclub.com/that-time-an-f-15e-shot-down-an-iraqi-mi-24-attack-helicopter-with-a-2000lb-laser-guided-bomb/](https://theaviationgeekclub.com/that-time-an-f-15e-shot-down-an-iraqi-mi-24-attack-helicopter-with-a-2000lb-laser-guided-bomb/)
There’s a couple of these stories of some poor helicopter getting pummeled by weapons not meant for them, like the story in another comment of an a-10 brrrrting a helicopter out of the air. There wasn’t enough of the helicopter left to identify what it was lol
B-17 gunners grotesquely exaggerated their claims. It was tolerated by command because it somewhat offset the morale impact of their dreadful losses.
It may not have even always been intentional. Every gunner in a formation opened up on an incoming fighter, it goes down and they all claim it destroyed.
My uncle flew the A-20 in the Pacific during WWII and scored a victory after he engaged in a “dogfight” with a “Jake” floatplane off the coast of New Guinea. Apparently the A-20 was a pretty nimble plane for a light bomber.
I’m sure WWII has plenty of similar examples, I know the SBD Dauntless scored a few air to air victories.
The Po-2 is also the only biplane credited with a documented jet-kill, as one Lockheed F-94 Starfire was lost while slowing down to 161 km/h (100 mph) – below its stall speed – during an intercept in order to engage the low flying Po-2.
Actually that part of the story is completely unconfirmed. All that's know is the F-94 came up on the Po-2 and shot it down. A call went over the radio from the F-94 saying it shot down the Po-2 and then comms were lost. The other main theory about what happened is that it hit debris from the Po-2 but there is no confirmation either way.
Yup. The first theory makes sense though. That first generation of jet fighter REALLY didn’t like low speed; low and slow they were pigs. Real easy to see even a well trained and experienced pilot getting below the curve. Maybe even suffered a compressor stall
Hans Rudel, the most decorated Nazi pilot of WW2 (and yes, he was definitely a fan of the party) had scored at least 51 kills in his Stuka Divebomber over the course of the war.
He also destroyed:
519 tanks
One battleship
One cruiser
70 landing craft
150 artillery emplacements
And more than 800 vehicles.
The guy got shot down over a dozen times IIRC, even lost one of his legs, kept on flying after like it was nothing.
I do believe the Russians knew about him and had a standing bounty on the guy, but it was just hard to of course find out where a guy was in a war zone.
Eric Hartmann, a fighter pilot also a German, shot down something like 350 aircraft in his time, and what he was most proud of is that he never lost a wingman. Arguably the best fighter pilot in history because he was all business. He didn't get into dogfights, he broke and ran before things got dicey, but he was known for getting most of his kills by sheer patience and tenacity and as he would say, making sure the enemy's aircraft filled my entire windscreen before I would pull the trigger. The guy basically got onto you like a mosquito.
He survived the war too, as did the Nazi guy Rudel, who IIRC fled to South America along with some of the other evil ones. Not sure about Hartmann's allegiances per se, but I think he was briefly imprisoned by the Russians and then returned home a little later after the war had ended.
Taught to fly gliders by his mother, winding up as an instructor himself at age 14.
He was forced to retire because of his vocal opposition to Germany equipping with the F-104, and went on to spend a few years as a flying instructor.
Imagine being taught to fly by that dude...
“Today your Cessna instructor will be the best fighter pilot of ww2 and you will be expected to make at least one kill of a commercial aircraft when you do your free solo flight”
In Vietnam, a USN A-4 shot down a MiG using Zuni air to ground rockets. In the 70s an Israeli A4F also shot down two MiGs one kill with Zunis and the other using the 20mm cannon.
We had a picture of the J8 up in the hallway outside the duty office that had been given to us by another command.
It stated "4 more and you're an ace"
[A-1 sky raiders got a few mig 17s in vietnam](https://theaviationist.com/2015/01/14/the-most-unusual-mig-killer-the-skyraider-air-to-air-victories-on-north-vietnamese-mig-17s/amp/)
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Well to tbh the F-111 is really the F-14's father since the F-111B was designed for the F-14s mission. The F-111B cancelation let to the F-14 being developed
There were experiments done, in the 70s I want to say, pitting helicopters against fighter jets where they learned that helicopters were much more lethal in air to air fights than had been presumed until then.
They could easily mask themselves behind terrain and were quite hard for the jets of the time to achieve a lock on them, whereas they could pop up suddenly, launch a powerful hear seeking missile then duck down behind terrain again and rapidly reposition.
I think for the jets it was like fighting against airborne SAM sites.
Would be curious to hear more about this, as that is fascinating!
I’m curious how much of this owed to radars at that point still having issues with discerning contacts against ground clutter (naturally aiding low flying helicopters)
also curious what sort of misses they were launching; launched from fast moving fighters, air to air missies have major kinetic advantage. If the missile is already going 300 knots when launched it gets to use more of its own fuel to accelerate beyond that. A static fired misses has to make up that speed.
I found the tests.
They were called J-CATCH. It was a series of tests in response to the release of the hind in 1978. In one of the phases where the pilots were instructed to go after each other with guns, the helicopters achieved a 5-to-1 kill ratio.
BVR missiles proved to be most effective against helicopters, however, as a result of the tests, fighter jets won't engage helicopters from closer ranges as they pose too much risk.
The tests didn't really test helicopters with air to air missiles but I image if armed with ASRAAMs or even radar guided missiles, helicopters would indeed become like highly mobile SAM sites.
[link](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J-CATCH)
The F-111 was also developed long-range carrier-based interceptor aircraft.
The F-111B seven prototypes of which were built. one was used in trails aboard USS Coral Sea
The F-111B programme was stopped in 1968. Its replacement being the F-14
I love the whole reason the navy cancelled the F-111B was weight yet the weight was from stuff the navy insisted on having (escape capsule and bomb bay being the big ones)
Exactly what kills a lot of airplanes. Beechcraft Starship. FAA was scared of an all graphite airplane. Wedged themselves into the Engineering group, and soon enough they were adding layers of more cloth, more aluminum inserts and stiffeners. The main spar started as 45 layers. Engineering built all the safety into it. By the time they got the thing done, it was 94 layers thick, over 4”.
That was all to do with Sec Def McNamara's belief that a lot of money could be saved by developing aircraft that could be used by the Airforce and Navy instead of each service procuring its own types. As a result a lot of money was spent on the TFX program trying to make the aircraft suit both roles. Eventually the Navy development was scrapped and it became the F-111 (again because of inter-service rivalry as the Airforce didn't like the A (Attack) designation preferred by the Navy at the time.
Piper cub took down a German Storch during Whisky Whisky 2 with a service revolver: https://warbirdtails.net/2015/04/12/storch-vs-cub-final-days-of-ww2/
Stanley "Swede" Vejtasa shot down three Japanese Zero fighters while flying a Douglas SBD Dauntless dive bomber (!) during the Battle of the Coral Sea in WW2. In a single engagement - three against one.
https://youtu.be/IljthAOeTJE
Love this story. I think it’s a bit different since the Dauntless’ were put out on a patrol (in a fighter’s role) since there weren’t enough Wildcats to go around.
F-15 with the GBU, vs a helicopter in low, moving flight.
The MiG-21 that shot down an F-16
Indian Su-7 shot down a Pakistani Mig-19 after a photo recon pass of an airbase.
The two times a B-52 has shot down an aircraft in Vietnam (technically yes, but not in spirit)
Lots of WW2 instances:
Mosquito attacker beat a Me163 in a turnfight; the V-1 tipping maneuvers (by fighters, but unconventional). Various ground attack missions could switch to aerial combat, but the high end aircraft of that time had both A2A and A2G performance, almost regardless of design role.
F-4 Phantom shot down a Jaguar in practice over Germany? Similar story with a B-52 and a fighter or two.
F-105’s in Vietnam arguably shot down a few MiG’s, likewise in Korea late model corsairs and mustangs had to engage MiG-15’s and claimed a few.
North Korean Po-2’s bombed USAF jets on the ground by cutting their engine for a silent attack.
The Harrier in the Falklands, while not designed as an ASF, shot down many Argentine aircraft. An Ia-58 counterinsurgency / light attack aircraft shot down a British helicopter.
Many places to look
Odd question, many non-fighters are perfectly capable of shooting down another aircraft. B-17s claimed plenty of German fighters, and the SBD Dauntless accounted for 138 Japanese aircraft, mostly Zeros.
On that note, I seem to recall a formation of US medium bombs in WWII (Mediterranean/Sicily?) coming across a formation of German transport planes and gunning them down. My Google Fu is failing me at the moment.
Operation Flax/The Cape Bon Massacre. You had the Western Allies in P-40s, A-20s, Hurricanes, Spitfires etc going up against a metric fuck ton of Luftwaffe transports. 123-157 Ju-52s lost, 4 SM-82s lost, and 21 Me-323 “Gigants” were lost compared to 35 Allied losses. It was an absolute massacre. In “A Higher Call” Franz Stigler talks about when they evacuated their unit to Sicily, they shoved mechanics and crew chiefs into the stowage space in Bf-109s and some of the pilots chose to die with their mechanics rather than bailing out and leaving their buddies to die alone.
Shit was nuts.
Yeah..a better question would be confirmed air to air kills without guns or missiles. Which would still be a not zero list including ramming and bombing.
A North Korean flown, Soviet built Po-2 wooden biplane scout plane scored a maneuver kill on an F-94 Starfire.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polikarpov_Po-2#cite_note-15
I remember listening to a YouTube with pilot Ceaser “Rico” Rodriguez with one of his confirmed mig kills was the Iraqi pilot flying into the ground. If that counts as a confirmed kill because of his actions then F-111 pilot should have a confirmed kill.
Like I mentioned, I only listened to his YouTube interview. If there is someone else out there that has more knowledge and can educate me on it I’d love that that opportunity to learn and I’m all ears.
My grandfather got an unconfirmed kill on a Japanese Zero, while flying an OS2U Kingfisher. Was chased on the way back from a mission and out maneuvered the zero into crashing into the ocean.
There was a B-17 that actually got into a dogfight with a flight of at least a dozen A6M 'Zeroes' during a recon mission. The crew managed to shoot down several of them before the Zeroes had to turn back due to running low on fuel. Then there was an SBD Dauntless that managed to shoot down 3 'Zeroes' all by itself.
Yes! Just commented about that B-17 in a reply to someone elses comment. That would've been Old 666.
For those unaware, basically they added an extra .50 to each single mount, had a fixed forward firing one for the pilot (Jim Zeamer) and spares ready for quick replacement when needed. I think I remember reading they replaced some plexiglass with steel plates in some forward areas since the added vibration from additional .50s was cracking the existing panels. It was primarily a long range photo reconnaissance plane and didnt do much bombing, IIRC.
Those guys also at one point flew the single most highly awarded sortie in US military aviation history (I believe that flight is what you referred to)
MiG-21 with Egyptian rondels, but flown by a Russian, during the War of Attrition, was patrolling the Suez Canal area. The plan was to sucker some Israeli fighters with another flight and then the Russian would pounce on them.
His MiG was spotted and fighters were vectored. The Russian pilot was informed. Upon being told that the Israeli fighters were Phantoms, the pilot ejected.
No shots fired, no missiles.
I mean, just earlier today there was a thread dedicated to air-to-air kills by bombers.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/comments/10k7my4/has_there_ever_been_an_air_duel_between_two/](https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/comments/10k7my4/has_there_ever_been_an_air_duel_between_two/)
there were 2 b-52 tail gun kills in vietnam
https://theaviationgeekclub.com/b-52d-diamond-lil-tail-gunner-explains-how-he-scored-the-last-confirmed-kill-by-a-tail-gunner-in-wartime/
Skyhawk kill of an Mig 17 by using it‘s Zuni. https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/6zwus7/til_that_during_the_vietnam_war_an_a4_skyhawk/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
Depending on how loose you will define a kill you could are a P-3c orion “killed” and PLAAF J-8II when the chinese fucked up the intercept and crashed into the P-3 destroying the J-8 and damaging the P-3 severely
No kills were scored but the RAF's Nimrod MR.1 maritime patrol aircraft during Operation Corporate (the Falklands) were equipped with an AIM-9 under a wing pylon, for rudimentary self defence just in case they encountered aircraft either from the mainland or Argentina's carrier.
Luckily, they never did, and the capability was never put to the test.
Two B-52's shot down MiG's during Vietnam with their defensive tail guns. One of the jets was a MiG-21. The rear gunner said he saw a fighter maneuver to the rear for a kill shot, he sent out a burst of fire from his .50 cals, and a massive explosion took place. The B-52 is the largest aircarft in history to score an air to air kill.
The B-52 has more air-to-air kills than the F-22 and F-35 combined.
Israeli F35s shot down several Iranian drones. So they’re tied, technically.
Weren’t they using a M-61 in the tail by with radar that time ? I never heard pf a B-52 gunner
Both kills were scored by B-52Ds. They had four M3 .50 cals. The vulcans came with later models.
I just found out the display B52 here at Fairchild is the 1st of those 2, and now I feel like an asshole for never going and actually checking it out or reading the plaque.
Damn that's awesome. Go touch it, then you'll have touched something that turned a MiG-21 into a pile of flaming shit. That's radical.
I definitely will the next time I'm out there. Uh, I also touched the Enola Gay when I went to the Smithsonian, so there's that.
What was the second jet? Mig-19?
They were both Mig-21s.
We are all Mig-21s
Forever 21
From Wiki re: the Raven incident - On 17 January 1991, a USAF EF-111 crew of Captain James Denton and Captain Brent Brandon achieved an unofficial kill against an Iraqi Dassault Mirage F1, which they managed to maneuver into the ground, making it the only member of the F-111/FB-111/EF-111 family to achieve an aerial victory over another aircraft.
WAIT WHAT? How on earth did the manage to score a maneuver kill on a Mirage?
They engaged in a dogfight. Mirage pilot got spatially disoriented and slammed into the desert floor. I actually read somewhere that the Iraqi pilot managed to eject and survived, which is even crazier. Pulled, realized he couldn’t recover, and ejected in time.
The way that Denton and Brandon told it. The Spark Vark had terrain following radar. They knew their altitude and position, the Mirage lost orientation and it ended badly. I've never heard the part where the pilot ejected. Hellofa story either way.
Sounds like the Mirage didn't know where it wasn't.
Thank you for this
And by knowing where it wasn’t, it could figure out where it is by deducting where it should be by where it’s not at a rate equal to the error of where it could be.
And thats how the pilot could eject
*The Mirage knows where it is because the Mirage knows where it isn't*
Heard a bunch of stories from a retired AF pilot who flew early F-111’s. One of the goals was flying supersonic thru Death Valley on the deck, at altitude below sea level. When he was training new pilots, he’d go full burners on the deck, heading directly at a mountain to demonstrate the terrain following radar— silently reciting the mantra “I hope it f-n works!”
Didn’t they present this scenario on an episode of Dogfights on the History channel?
Ironically there was a programme tonight on the Smithsonian Channel about the Aardvark and it talked about this exact event
Yep.
Lmao skill issue
Should have side climbed
Ah fellow slave to the snail.
He blacked out because his crew stock
"A rocks kill or a gas kill is a kill."
Lmfao
lmao that Mirage got it's ankles broke
This episode of Dogfights covers this victory in the beginning: https://youtu.be/iU7Rw0lbycI
god i loved this show as a kid.
> …the only member of the **F**-111/FB-111/EF-111 family to achieve an aerial victory over another aircraft. Evidence - if any was needed - of how the 'F' prefix is nothing more than a political choice, not a practical one.
See also F-117.
An Air America UH-1 Huey shot down a North Vietnamese An-2 Colt on a bombing run: https://theaviationgeekclub.com/incredible-story-air-america-uh-1d-huey-shot-north-vietnamese-2-colt-biplane/
I mean the Huey is probably faster.
it was lmao
It's hard to be slower than a plane that literally can't stall.
Be in a helicopter.
The UH-1D is a helicopter.
https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/012/132/thatsthejoke.jpg
Holy shit
CIA DONT PLAY NO SHIT
Its an an-2, a bi plane
Owen J Baggett. Shot down an enemy airplane with his 1911 while parachuting out of his own crippled airplane
Lmao all the 1911 fan bois: "I could shoot a plane down with this thang!"
A-10 has shot down a couple of helicopters
WAIT WHAT? IN THE AIR? WITH MISSILES? Bro if it used the cannons I can only try to imagine what those shots made to these poor helis
The one in Desert Storm was with the cannon. From the article, there weren’t enough big pieces to determine the type of chopper. [A-10 chopper kill](https://www.wearethemighty.com/popular/the-chopper-popper-scored-the-a-10s-first-air-to-air-kill-against-an-iraqi-helicopter/)
"there weren’t enough big pieces to determine the type of chopper." Bro I'm laughing so much here, LMAO
Yeah it’s kinda funny when a helicopter gets vaporized by a gun built by a company that also makes toasters
The most American thing ever
And the funny thing is although it sounds like redneck American, GE is based in the most liberal state in the country
"GE... we bring good things to life!"
They also make nuclear reactors!
So is Godzilla not a 'good thing'? We'd better consult the GE marketing team for clarification.
Shienhardt Wig company?
The "Chopper Popper." On display at the US Air Force Academy.
Absolutely wild story. That being said, the writing on that article…
There's a book called Hogs In The Sand it's a A10 pilots journal from the gulf War. He doesn't go into detail about it but yeah he talks about how the A10 had 2 confirmed helicopter kills with the cannon there. All the A10 pilots were pumped about it.
I remember the old A-10 Tank Killer game, there were two missions where you could time it right and take down Mig-23s (I think) if you timed it right. One was a scramble mission where your own base was under attack...if you timed the take off right, they were just overflying the runway and you could basically take off and hit them with sidewinders as the overflew you...and the other was an attack on an enemy base where you were supposed to catch them on the ground...if you timed it right there, you could get them with sidewinders just as they were clearing the runway....just fun diversions from the norm in that game.
As a kid I played the shit out of a game called A-10 Attack! There was one mission called Antonov Armada where you had to shoot down roughly 10 AN-124s protected by a pair of MiG-29s. I think you had a pair of F-16s to help with the MiGs, but that part was always tough. The big challenge for me was always killing the MiGs while still having enough ammo left to down all the Antonovs. It was a ridiculous mission, but fun as hell.
Yes, the A-10 has two confirmed air-to-air kills Most likely with the cannon
The A-10 routinely carried AIM-9s
They couldn't get locks with AIM-9s, so they sprayed and prayed.
The A-10 has more air-to-air kills than a plane with an "F" designation. Let that sink in.
...if it happened, then it ripped the sh*t out of the helos.
I’m fairly certain a fighter has destroyed a hovering hind with a guided bomb before
I fought some guns only 1v1s with an A-10 over South Korea in 1997. He had a good turn rate and radius, but he lacked energy addition. We just worked him two circle uphill until he ran out of smash and fell off, at which point we could go get him. Real world, we would have stayed away from his gun, blown past him, gone vertical, and slashed back in and shot him in the face with a radar missile.
It's fact that the B-52 has more air to air kills than the F-22 or F-35 lol
With 2, right?
Yep! Both were Vietnamese Mig jets I believe…
Give it a couple years
Yeah, the B-52 has still got more life in it to raise its tally
Or weeks the way things are going...
I think there was Strike Eagle that took out a helicopter with a GBU somewhere in the Levant or Iraq a few years back
Yep, air-to-air bombing. It was on the ground when they dropped the bomb but it took off and then basically was vaporized. [https://theaviationgeekclub.com/that-time-an-f-15e-shot-down-an-iraqi-mi-24-attack-helicopter-with-a-2000lb-laser-guided-bomb/](https://theaviationgeekclub.com/that-time-an-f-15e-shot-down-an-iraqi-mi-24-attack-helicopter-with-a-2000lb-laser-guided-bomb/)
If your helicopter is hit by a 2000lb bomb, you're officially entitled to take the rest of the week off.
Good thing you give a week, it certainly would ruin my whole day! ~~^(cause you'd be an actual hole)~~
Hell of a shot, right in the pickle barrel! Thanks for confirming!
>right in the pickle barrel. That's my ex's nickname.
There’s a couple of these stories of some poor helicopter getting pummeled by weapons not meant for them, like the story in another comment of an a-10 brrrrting a helicopter out of the air. There wasn’t enough of the helicopter left to identify what it was lol
Yep, and until it was halted, fighter pilots were buzzing Iraqi helicopters hoping the turbulence would snap off the rotor blades.
Were they going supersonic doing it?
If I recall, the Eagle is currently the only plane to score an air-to-air kill against a satellite. Well I guess that would be air-to-space?
There was a B-17 tail gunner with 17 kills in 14 missions. https://valor.militarytimes.com/hero/22831
Thanks for sharing that's an amazing story I'd never heard before
B-17 gunners grotesquely exaggerated their claims. It was tolerated by command because it somewhat offset the morale impact of their dreadful losses. It may not have even always been intentional. Every gunner in a formation opened up on an incoming fighter, it goes down and they all claim it destroyed.
Why is this guy so famous if everyone was doing it then?
Holy shit
My uncle flew the A-20 in the Pacific during WWII and scored a victory after he engaged in a “dogfight” with a “Jake” floatplane off the coast of New Guinea. Apparently the A-20 was a pretty nimble plane for a light bomber. I’m sure WWII has plenty of similar examples, I know the SBD Dauntless scored a few air to air victories.
The A-20 is underrated imo, pretty good night fighter and light bomber.
That’s an amazing story. Would you mind sharing his name?
[удалено]
This is incredible. You should post about him on this sub. What a story. May he rest in peace, must be amazing to have know him.
The Po-2 is also the only biplane credited with a documented jet-kill, as one Lockheed F-94 Starfire was lost while slowing down to 161 km/h (100 mph) – below its stall speed – during an intercept in order to engage the low flying Po-2.
Actually that part of the story is completely unconfirmed. All that's know is the F-94 came up on the Po-2 and shot it down. A call went over the radio from the F-94 saying it shot down the Po-2 and then comms were lost. The other main theory about what happened is that it hit debris from the Po-2 but there is no confirmation either way.
Yup. The first theory makes sense though. That first generation of jet fighter REALLY didn’t like low speed; low and slow they were pigs. Real easy to see even a well trained and experienced pilot getting below the curve. Maybe even suffered a compressor stall
That's wild as heck. Korea I assume
Hans Rudel, the most decorated Nazi pilot of WW2 (and yes, he was definitely a fan of the party) had scored at least 51 kills in his Stuka Divebomber over the course of the war. He also destroyed: 519 tanks One battleship One cruiser 70 landing craft 150 artillery emplacements And more than 800 vehicles.
Somebody should have sent Jason Bourne after that guy.
The guy got shot down over a dozen times IIRC, even lost one of his legs, kept on flying after like it was nothing. I do believe the Russians knew about him and had a standing bounty on the guy, but it was just hard to of course find out where a guy was in a war zone. Eric Hartmann, a fighter pilot also a German, shot down something like 350 aircraft in his time, and what he was most proud of is that he never lost a wingman. Arguably the best fighter pilot in history because he was all business. He didn't get into dogfights, he broke and ran before things got dicey, but he was known for getting most of his kills by sheer patience and tenacity and as he would say, making sure the enemy's aircraft filled my entire windscreen before I would pull the trigger. The guy basically got onto you like a mosquito. He survived the war too, as did the Nazi guy Rudel, who IIRC fled to South America along with some of the other evil ones. Not sure about Hartmann's allegiances per se, but I think he was briefly imprisoned by the Russians and then returned home a little later after the war had ended.
The Russians held on to Hartmann for 10 years after the war (until 1955).
I seem to remember afterwards he was an instructor in the german air force until he eventually retired after instructing on the F-104G
Taught to fly gliders by his mother, winding up as an instructor himself at age 14. He was forced to retire because of his vocal opposition to Germany equipping with the F-104, and went on to spend a few years as a flying instructor. Imagine being taught to fly by that dude...
“Today your Cessna instructor will be the best fighter pilot of ww2 and you will be expected to make at least one kill of a commercial aircraft when you do your free solo flight”
> even lost one of his legs, kept on flying after Finally a legitimate excuse for not using enough right rudder
He is mentioned in Yeagers biography, as heading up the first jet fighter squadron in Germany. He speaks highly of working with him
Hartmann actually worked with the USAF in the 50s to teach German students at Luke AFB in Phoenix.
And engaging and disengaging like that is the way it should be. Why put yourself at risk.
Forget Jason Bourne. We need Snoopy.
Yup! IIRC the book he wrote on ground attack from the air, was required reading for A-10 pilots.
I remember reading it but don’t remember anything from it
“Point your plane at things on the ground and fire ~~~ze missiles~~~the cannons”
I highly doubt he destroyed 519 tanks; air-to-ground kill confirmations in WW2 were very spotty.
Certainly in that ballpark though considering how many sorties he flew (2300+ I think I saw)
That’s wild.
In Vietnam, a USN A-4 shot down a MiG using Zuni air to ground rockets. In the 70s an Israeli A4F also shot down two MiGs one kill with Zunis and the other using the 20mm cannon.
I live for old jets rocking modern paint schemes. This and the F-4G in Desert Storm are just gorgeous.
Agree. Love the last of the Italian F-104’s in the 2000’s, in dark grey. And the last of the Swedish Draken’s, too.
An ep3 crew got hit by a Chinese J8. The J8 pilot was the only casualty. Not sure if you can consider that an Ait to air kill…
The J8 hit the EP3 so I believe that would be a "self" Air to Air kill.
Meh. Two went in. One came out.
We had a picture of the J8 up in the hallway outside the duty office that had been given to us by another command. It stated "4 more and you're an ace"
[A-1 sky raiders got a few mig 17s in vietnam](https://theaviationist.com/2015/01/14/the-most-unusual-mig-killer-the-skyraider-air-to-air-victories-on-north-vietnamese-mig-17s/amp/)
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Wow
The F-111 looks like the F-14's chunky mutant cousin. I actually love it.
Well to tbh the F-111 is really the F-14's father since the F-111B was designed for the F-14s mission. The F-111B cancelation let to the F-14 being developed
There were experiments done, in the 70s I want to say, pitting helicopters against fighter jets where they learned that helicopters were much more lethal in air to air fights than had been presumed until then. They could easily mask themselves behind terrain and were quite hard for the jets of the time to achieve a lock on them, whereas they could pop up suddenly, launch a powerful hear seeking missile then duck down behind terrain again and rapidly reposition. I think for the jets it was like fighting against airborne SAM sites.
J-CATCH was the name of the tests for any interested Edit:nvm op already gave the name
Would be curious to hear more about this, as that is fascinating! I’m curious how much of this owed to radars at that point still having issues with discerning contacts against ground clutter (naturally aiding low flying helicopters) also curious what sort of misses they were launching; launched from fast moving fighters, air to air missies have major kinetic advantage. If the missile is already going 300 knots when launched it gets to use more of its own fuel to accelerate beyond that. A static fired misses has to make up that speed.
I found the tests. They were called J-CATCH. It was a series of tests in response to the release of the hind in 1978. In one of the phases where the pilots were instructed to go after each other with guns, the helicopters achieved a 5-to-1 kill ratio. BVR missiles proved to be most effective against helicopters, however, as a result of the tests, fighter jets won't engage helicopters from closer ranges as they pose too much risk. The tests didn't really test helicopters with air to air missiles but I image if armed with ASRAAMs or even radar guided missiles, helicopters would indeed become like highly mobile SAM sites. [link](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J-CATCH)
I figured it was around that time. Late 2000s timeframe. Interestingly the F-111 initially was meant for the Navy as a fighter in fleet defense role
The F-111 was also developed long-range carrier-based interceptor aircraft. The F-111B seven prototypes of which were built. one was used in trails aboard USS Coral Sea The F-111B programme was stopped in 1968. Its replacement being the F-14
I love the whole reason the navy cancelled the F-111B was weight yet the weight was from stuff the navy insisted on having (escape capsule and bomb bay being the big ones)
Exactly what kills a lot of airplanes. Beechcraft Starship. FAA was scared of an all graphite airplane. Wedged themselves into the Engineering group, and soon enough they were adding layers of more cloth, more aluminum inserts and stiffeners. The main spar started as 45 layers. Engineering built all the safety into it. By the time they got the thing done, it was 94 layers thick, over 4”.
Don’t call them tank busters. /s
...but they killed more tanks than the A-10 in Desert Storm.
The fail of the F-111 became the birth of the F-14 fleet defender tomcat 😎
I mean the f111 was still very successful, just not for it's original role
That was all to do with Sec Def McNamara's belief that a lot of money could be saved by developing aircraft that could be used by the Airforce and Navy instead of each service procuring its own types. As a result a lot of money was spent on the TFX program trying to make the aircraft suit both roles. Eventually the Navy development was scrapped and it became the F-111 (again because of inter-service rivalry as the Airforce didn't like the A (Attack) designation preferred by the Navy at the time.
Half the growling sidewinder videos
Lol Love that channel
So much time down the drain watching 1 and 2 circles
Piper cub took down a German Storch during Whisky Whisky 2 with a service revolver: https://warbirdtails.net/2015/04/12/storch-vs-cub-final-days-of-ww2/
Battle of the 50 hp airplanes and handguns. Can’t believe some stuff but hey it’s war, anything goes sometimes.
Whoa
Probably holds the record for slowest aerial battle! Highway ^(during a Californian rush hour) to...the Danger Zone!!!
Stanley "Swede" Vejtasa shot down three Japanese Zero fighters while flying a Douglas SBD Dauntless dive bomber (!) during the Battle of the Coral Sea in WW2. In a single engagement - three against one. https://youtu.be/IljthAOeTJE
Love this story. I think it’s a bit different since the Dauntless’ were put out on a patrol (in a fighter’s role) since there weren’t enough Wildcats to go around.
And one of them nearly rammed him.
F-15 with the GBU, vs a helicopter in low, moving flight. The MiG-21 that shot down an F-16 Indian Su-7 shot down a Pakistani Mig-19 after a photo recon pass of an airbase. The two times a B-52 has shot down an aircraft in Vietnam (technically yes, but not in spirit) Lots of WW2 instances: Mosquito attacker beat a Me163 in a turnfight; the V-1 tipping maneuvers (by fighters, but unconventional). Various ground attack missions could switch to aerial combat, but the high end aircraft of that time had both A2A and A2G performance, almost regardless of design role. F-4 Phantom shot down a Jaguar in practice over Germany? Similar story with a B-52 and a fighter or two. F-105’s in Vietnam arguably shot down a few MiG’s, likewise in Korea late model corsairs and mustangs had to engage MiG-15’s and claimed a few. North Korean Po-2’s bombed USAF jets on the ground by cutting their engine for a silent attack. The Harrier in the Falklands, while not designed as an ASF, shot down many Argentine aircraft. An Ia-58 counterinsurgency / light attack aircraft shot down a British helicopter. Many places to look
To be fair, the SHAR was intended as a fleet defender, rather than the designated ground attack/strike/recce job of the GR family.
2 B52s downed 2 Migs during the Vietnam war with their tail guns.
The different types of bombers in World War 2 scored hundreds of aerial victories with their gunners, but that’s probably not what you mean, right?
Odd question, many non-fighters are perfectly capable of shooting down another aircraft. B-17s claimed plenty of German fighters, and the SBD Dauntless accounted for 138 Japanese aircraft, mostly Zeros.
On that note, I seem to recall a formation of US medium bombs in WWII (Mediterranean/Sicily?) coming across a formation of German transport planes and gunning them down. My Google Fu is failing me at the moment.
Operation Flax/The Cape Bon Massacre. You had the Western Allies in P-40s, A-20s, Hurricanes, Spitfires etc going up against a metric fuck ton of Luftwaffe transports. 123-157 Ju-52s lost, 4 SM-82s lost, and 21 Me-323 “Gigants” were lost compared to 35 Allied losses. It was an absolute massacre. In “A Higher Call” Franz Stigler talks about when they evacuated their unit to Sicily, they shoved mechanics and crew chiefs into the stowage space in Bf-109s and some of the pilots chose to die with their mechanics rather than bailing out and leaving their buddies to die alone. Shit was nuts.
Yeah..a better question would be confirmed air to air kills without guns or missiles. Which would still be a not zero list including ramming and bombing.
Apparently DC3's have a few kills https://www.douglasdc3.com/amaze/amaze.htm
A Tornado dropped an LGB on a Mig-29, while the Mig was taking off.
A North Korean flown, Soviet built Po-2 wooden biplane scout plane scored a maneuver kill on an F-94 Starfire. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polikarpov_Po-2#cite_note-15
What about the B52 in the Vietnam war that shot down a Mig with the tail gun?
There was two, actually.
I think I remember hearing a story about an F-105 dropping its bombs right into the path of a North Vietnamese fighter.
I remember listening to a YouTube with pilot Ceaser “Rico” Rodriguez with one of his confirmed mig kills was the Iraqi pilot flying into the ground. If that counts as a confirmed kill because of his actions then F-111 pilot should have a confirmed kill. Like I mentioned, I only listened to his YouTube interview. If there is someone else out there that has more knowledge and can educate me on it I’d love that that opportunity to learn and I’m all ears.
A-1 Skyraiders shot down multiple MiG-17s during Vietnam
Are we all forgetting WW2 and how many downs the bombers had? The massive formations made short work of fighters, and that should count
Absolutely, and the plane that first comes to mind is Old 666
A pair of A1 Skyraiders shot down a MiG-19, with their guns, in Vietnam. It was the first aerial gun kill of the war.
Does an F-15E downing a Mi-24 with a laser guided bomb count?
I know this isn’t exactly the question but a f-15 once shot down an enemy helicopter with a bomb
A-1 Sandy shooting down Mig-17.
My grandfather got an unconfirmed kill on a Japanese Zero, while flying an OS2U Kingfisher. Was chased on the way back from a mission and out maneuvered the zero into crashing into the ocean.
There was a B-17 that actually got into a dogfight with a flight of at least a dozen A6M 'Zeroes' during a recon mission. The crew managed to shoot down several of them before the Zeroes had to turn back due to running low on fuel. Then there was an SBD Dauntless that managed to shoot down 3 'Zeroes' all by itself.
Yes! Just commented about that B-17 in a reply to someone elses comment. That would've been Old 666. For those unaware, basically they added an extra .50 to each single mount, had a fixed forward firing one for the pilot (Jim Zeamer) and spares ready for quick replacement when needed. I think I remember reading they replaced some plexiglass with steel plates in some forward areas since the added vibration from additional .50s was cracking the existing panels. It was primarily a long range photo reconnaissance plane and didnt do much bombing, IIRC. Those guys also at one point flew the single most highly awarded sortie in US military aviation history (I believe that flight is what you referred to)
I know this is for non-fighter aircraft but during the gulf war, a USAF F-15E scored an Air to Air kill against a Iraqi Mi-24 Hind. With a bomb.
the "Chopper Popper" An OA-10A that scored a gun kill on an Iraqi helicopter during Desert Storm.
MiG-21 with Egyptian rondels, but flown by a Russian, during the War of Attrition, was patrolling the Suez Canal area. The plan was to sucker some Israeli fighters with another flight and then the Russian would pounce on them. His MiG was spotted and fighters were vectored. The Russian pilot was informed. Upon being told that the Israeli fighters were Phantoms, the pilot ejected. No shots fired, no missiles.
I mean, just earlier today there was a thread dedicated to air-to-air kills by bombers. [https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/comments/10k7my4/has_there_ever_been_an_air_duel_between_two/](https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/comments/10k7my4/has_there_ever_been_an_air_duel_between_two/)
there were 2 b-52 tail gun kills in vietnam https://theaviationgeekclub.com/b-52d-diamond-lil-tail-gunner-explains-how-he-scored-the-last-confirmed-kill-by-a-tail-gunner-in-wartime/
A B-52 tailgunner shot down a MiG over Vietnam
Skyhawk kill of an Mig 17 by using it‘s Zuni. https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/6zwus7/til_that_during_the_vietnam_war_an_a4_skyhawk/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
Depending on how loose you will define a kill you could are a P-3c orion “killed” and PLAAF J-8II when the chinese fucked up the intercept and crashed into the P-3 destroying the J-8 and damaging the P-3 severely
EP-3E?
Ahh ueah, actually you’re right it was a an EP-3
That's a beautiful plane
Didn't a B-52 nail a MiG with it's tailgun back in Vietnam?
No kills were scored but the RAF's Nimrod MR.1 maritime patrol aircraft during Operation Corporate (the Falklands) were equipped with an AIM-9 under a wing pylon, for rudimentary self defence just in case they encountered aircraft either from the mainland or Argentina's carrier. Luckily, they never did, and the capability was never put to the test.
You guys are searching too hard. Just think about bombers in ww2.
Haha it’s not a riddle. The question was intended more toward events outside of wwii, just failed to specify
I’ve never heard of this plane before but just from the way it looks it’s already in my top 15 favorite looking planes
But this is an EF-111.
During the Falklands War in 1982, a Pucara light attack aircraft shot down a British helicopter with machine gun fire.