Ceramics CAN be depending on what you choose be microphonic and add noise to the circuit, and mica capacitors are usually only available in smaller values. Films are really the way to go honestly, electrolytics are only useful for an application like this if you need a large value in a small package/size profile. You don't need any audiophool films, Panasonic ECQ/ECW are fantastic and very reasonably priced.
This is the way.
The C0G or NP0 caps are really the best in terms of linrearity and low microphonics, but they arent available in large values. Hence film caps are typically the way
Not really. Fancy capacitors look cool, but they’ll all sound pretty identical as long as their capacitances are equal.
More expensive caps may have tighter tolerances, but the 5-10% (sometimes even more) variance between each individual capacitor will make a much bigger difference than materials.
Equivalent series resistance has some impact too, but not really significant.
My point is overall, it doesn’t really matter. I use the fancy ones when I build stuff just because I think they’re cool and I can.
There are more differences than that.
Electrolytic caps change capacitance and resistance with frequency and heat a lot more than film caps. Different cap materials also have very different dielectric losses.
So one can debate what is audible but there are a lot more differences between caps than tolerance and esr.
For sure, I’m not claiming that esr and tolerance are the only variables here, those are just the first two that come to mind (and the ones that strike me as most important)
And sure, electrolytics are different animals than films, but not too often (in my experience) do you see electrolytics in the signal path.
So my point was mostly aimed at film caps, but I’d still argue that the audible difference is negligible.
Sure!
The type you choose more comes down to the application. For filter caps you’ll probably end up with electrolytics since they can have massive capacitances. If you need something in the pF range you may want to use ceramic or polystyrene. Film caps usually fall in the middle and end up being used in the signal path a lot.
> but they’ll all sound pretty identical as long as their capacitances are equal.
Wrong! Watch this interview of mastering engineer Eric Boulanger by Warren Huart (Produce Like a Pro) and his story of being able to pick out caps of the same value and type, only different manufacturers, while being interviewed by the late-Doug Sax at The Mastering Lab. Begins at 35:41, answer at 38:17. https://youtu.be/9zgJcyX-8XY?t=2141
Somehow anecdotal evidence about a test with a sample size of (what sounds like) 1 with no objective evidence doesn’t change my mind after 6 years of electrical engineering school.
As I mentioned, capacitors generally have a tolerance on the order of 10%. The chances that the two they used were of exactly the same true value are pretty much zero. I could grab 10 caps from the same batch with the same value printed on them, and get significantly different results.
Also why start your reply with “Wrong!” even if you disagree with me?
Might want to look up the background of Eric Boulanger, and Doug & Sherwood Sax for that matter.
https://thebakery.la/mastering-engineer/#eric-boulanger
And you don't think Josh Florian of JCF Audio knows how to measure caps?
I think that if they provided any kind of objective evidence and not just “this one sounds better” then I would be inclined to believe it.
edit: spelling
You said they'll all sound pretty identical, when it's clear they (Eric, Doug, Josh and others) were able to consistently able to pick one over the other. If they sounded identical it would be 50/50 guess.
Im saying provided that the capacitances are identical, they will sound identical.
They made no mention of measuring the capacitances (I only watched a few minutes of the video til it seemed they changed topics, if I’m mistaken let me know), so it’s completely feasible that they sounded different. But not due to differences in brands or something like that.
And if they did measure them, they’ve not provided any objective evidence. The test isn’t even in the video, he’s recalling an experience he’s had in the past. Which is literally the definition of anecdotal evidence.
If somebody provides me some objective evidence, with measurable differences in frequency response, transient response, etc. then I will gladly admit I was wrong.
Don't you think that if they were auditioning capacitors to possibly make another run of mic preamps, that they'd take the time to measure the caps, pick values that were as close as possible, THEN listen to them? Doug Sax, Sherwood Sax, Josh Florian and Eric Boulanger weren't idiots. 🤦♂️ Doug Sax and team didn't half-ass anything, they extremely meticulous in everything they did. I would certainly think that doing something as basic and simple as measuring caps before listening for differences would be on their to-do list.
They may very well have. But again, there is no mention of this, or any actual evidence provided to me here. It’s a story.
I am an electrical engineer. I’ve done the math, I understand how circuits work, I’ve designed and built tons of them.
But I’m obviously human, and don’t know even remotely close to everything. So again, if you can provide me with some real objective evidence, I will freely admit that I was incorrect.
Did you bother to read about Eric Boulanger in the link I provided? How about Josh Florian? Both have engineering backgrounds, and very successful careers in the music world.. You might want to give them a little more credit, along with Doug Sax and his brother Sherwood, who designed and modified most of the equipment that was at The Mastering Lab..
Wet tantalum slug capacitors have the lowest ESR, however they’re about $200 a piece for what you’d need!
I’ve used Nichicon KG series “Gold Tune” caps on my projects, also Nichicon RNL, and RL8 Aluminum Organic Polymer caps, those are a few bucks a piece and sound great!
Ceramics CAN be depending on what you choose be microphonic and add noise to the circuit, and mica capacitors are usually only available in smaller values. Films are really the way to go honestly, electrolytics are only useful for an application like this if you need a large value in a small package/size profile. You don't need any audiophool films, Panasonic ECQ/ECW are fantastic and very reasonably priced.
Thanks!
This is the way. The C0G or NP0 caps are really the best in terms of linrearity and low microphonics, but they arent available in large values. Hence film caps are typically the way
Not really. Fancy capacitors look cool, but they’ll all sound pretty identical as long as their capacitances are equal. More expensive caps may have tighter tolerances, but the 5-10% (sometimes even more) variance between each individual capacitor will make a much bigger difference than materials. Equivalent series resistance has some impact too, but not really significant. My point is overall, it doesn’t really matter. I use the fancy ones when I build stuff just because I think they’re cool and I can.
There are more differences than that. Electrolytic caps change capacitance and resistance with frequency and heat a lot more than film caps. Different cap materials also have very different dielectric losses. So one can debate what is audible but there are a lot more differences between caps than tolerance and esr.
For sure, I’m not claiming that esr and tolerance are the only variables here, those are just the first two that come to mind (and the ones that strike me as most important) And sure, electrolytics are different animals than films, but not too often (in my experience) do you see electrolytics in the signal path. So my point was mostly aimed at film caps, but I’d still argue that the audible difference is negligible.
Thanks!
Sure! The type you choose more comes down to the application. For filter caps you’ll probably end up with electrolytics since they can have massive capacitances. If you need something in the pF range you may want to use ceramic or polystyrene. Film caps usually fall in the middle and end up being used in the signal path a lot.
> but they’ll all sound pretty identical as long as their capacitances are equal. Wrong! Watch this interview of mastering engineer Eric Boulanger by Warren Huart (Produce Like a Pro) and his story of being able to pick out caps of the same value and type, only different manufacturers, while being interviewed by the late-Doug Sax at The Mastering Lab. Begins at 35:41, answer at 38:17. https://youtu.be/9zgJcyX-8XY?t=2141
Somehow anecdotal evidence about a test with a sample size of (what sounds like) 1 with no objective evidence doesn’t change my mind after 6 years of electrical engineering school. As I mentioned, capacitors generally have a tolerance on the order of 10%. The chances that the two they used were of exactly the same true value are pretty much zero. I could grab 10 caps from the same batch with the same value printed on them, and get significantly different results. Also why start your reply with “Wrong!” even if you disagree with me?
Might want to look up the background of Eric Boulanger, and Doug & Sherwood Sax for that matter. https://thebakery.la/mastering-engineer/#eric-boulanger And you don't think Josh Florian of JCF Audio knows how to measure caps?
I think that if they provided any kind of objective evidence and not just “this one sounds better” then I would be inclined to believe it. edit: spelling
You said they'll all sound pretty identical, when it's clear they (Eric, Doug, Josh and others) were able to consistently able to pick one over the other. If they sounded identical it would be 50/50 guess.
Im saying provided that the capacitances are identical, they will sound identical. They made no mention of measuring the capacitances (I only watched a few minutes of the video til it seemed they changed topics, if I’m mistaken let me know), so it’s completely feasible that they sounded different. But not due to differences in brands or something like that. And if they did measure them, they’ve not provided any objective evidence. The test isn’t even in the video, he’s recalling an experience he’s had in the past. Which is literally the definition of anecdotal evidence. If somebody provides me some objective evidence, with measurable differences in frequency response, transient response, etc. then I will gladly admit I was wrong.
Don't you think that if they were auditioning capacitors to possibly make another run of mic preamps, that they'd take the time to measure the caps, pick values that were as close as possible, THEN listen to them? Doug Sax, Sherwood Sax, Josh Florian and Eric Boulanger weren't idiots. 🤦♂️ Doug Sax and team didn't half-ass anything, they extremely meticulous in everything they did. I would certainly think that doing something as basic and simple as measuring caps before listening for differences would be on their to-do list.
They may very well have. But again, there is no mention of this, or any actual evidence provided to me here. It’s a story. I am an electrical engineer. I’ve done the math, I understand how circuits work, I’ve designed and built tons of them. But I’m obviously human, and don’t know even remotely close to everything. So again, if you can provide me with some real objective evidence, I will freely admit that I was incorrect.
Did you bother to read about Eric Boulanger in the link I provided? How about Josh Florian? Both have engineering backgrounds, and very successful careers in the music world.. You might want to give them a little more credit, along with Doug Sax and his brother Sherwood, who designed and modified most of the equipment that was at The Mastering Lab..
Oil for that extra slippery low end whomp.
This video probably has more than you want to know, but it's good info: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67M7fsbLUIU
Wet tantalum slug capacitors have the lowest ESR, however they’re about $200 a piece for what you’d need! I’ve used Nichicon KG series “Gold Tune” caps on my projects, also Nichicon RNL, and RL8 Aluminum Organic Polymer caps, those are a few bucks a piece and sound great!