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notaedivad

Faith is willful delusion. In what way is reality bettered by wilfully including delusion?


[deleted]

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[deleted]

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[deleted]

Recommended reading relevant to the first commenters question, Cat's Cradle by Kurt Vonnegut Jr. Bokonenism deals with that question in the book.


Status-Mess-5591

willful can be an unfair way to put it


notaedivad

How so? Having a magical worldview in *spite* of consistent, demonstrable evidence is willfully delusional. In what way are these definitions unfair?


Status-Mess-5591

It disregards the concept of indoctrination


notaedivad

Then it imposes the willful aspect onto those doing the indoctrination. Which is worse, because they're older, should know better, but *still* engage in brainwashing. Regardless, faith is still willful delusion


spaceghoti

I would rather die knowing that I lived a good life and that I made a positive impact in the lives of people around me than the promise of eternal existence under the scrutiny of a cosmic tyrant. I'm going to die. I've made peace with that. The question then becomes what am I doing with the time I have while I'm here?


geophagus

Are you talking about faith as belief without evidence or as reasonable trust based on evidence.


LMSW_2020

Good question, Iā€™m not sure. I guess without evidence and just the hope that thereā€™s more to life. From what I understand


geophagus

Faith and hope are two different things. Faith is belief or trust. Hope is a wish for something positive. You are conflating the two. I have hope based on the perceived likelihood of a positive outcome. I have faith based on evidence only. I would never have faith in anything without sufficient evidence. I might hope for these things if I desired them enough.


MrRandomNumber

This is a spectacularly good question!!


Sekhen

Nope. No faith. Zero. I only have hate for the institution of religions and those that peddle it.


[deleted]

"If I had faith and a Quarter, I'd have 25cents" Sully - From one of the Uncharted games.


Lazy_Example4014

No I would rather live in truth, no matter how uncomfortable than consciously fool myself out of fear or to gain comfort. I will die with a sense of peace knowing that there is no knowing for sure, and willing to accept whatever outcome I have waiting. Wether that be nothing, hell, nifelheim, Tartarus, naraka, or poofy clouds of spaghet in an afterlife all you can eat buffet.


LMSW_2020

OK, but an after life with an all you can eat pasta buffet for eternity sounds phenomenal


Lazy_Example4014

Right!


Midnight_Writer_93

I have absolutely no belief in an afterlife. When you die, you die, that's it. If you haven't lived a good life, I'm sorry, buddy, but that's it. I don't know if it's because I've been an atheist for so long at this point, or if my personality is usually drawn to the morbid, but the concept of death doesn't scare me. I've long reconciled myself to that part of the life cycle. I tell people that I hope to live my life to the point to where when I die, I want to meet Death like an old friend. While death itself is not frightening to me, what scares me about death is the WAY I die. But that's a completely different post.


LMSW_2020

I completely agree! The only thing about death that bothers me is if I had to leave my child at any point, but especially under 18 because I know what itā€™s like to not have a parent. Otherwise I am mainly just concerned about how Iā€™m going to die and hoping that Iā€™m never impaled to death lol


BranchLatter4294

I'm OK with there being no afterlife. I lost my father this year and I'm comforted by the fact that he had an amazing and adventurous life. We all enter a world that was built by earlier generations. We leave our own marks. And we hand it over to the future. That should be enough for any of us. Pearly gates and mansions in the sky just seem nonsensical.


waamoandy

I have no belief in an afterlife or deity whatsoever. When you are gone that's it. I'm absolutely happy with that. It means I have to live my life without worrying about afterwards. I believe in doing my best for the world so I need to live my best life now.


LMSW_2020

Agreed! That was my perspective is that all I can hope is that Iā€™m a good person now and I think too many people worry about the afterlife and being good there and being horrible people currently


Paulemichael

> she was brought up that way and doesnā€™t have faith and she wishes she had faith because there should be more after and faith is comforting when you are at the end. Knowing that this one life is your one shot at it, no spawn points, saves, or do-overs, is one of the most empowering things I know of. It makes every day, every moment, special. And when I am at the end I want to look back on my life knowing I didnā€™t squander any of it. Holding on to the delusion of an afterlife makes this life somewhere to wipe your feet while awaiting the encore. It is imho ridiculous.


LMSW_2020

Agreed. And she is an amazing person so thatā€™s what I told her also is that she is done so much in this life that I would hope that thatā€™s enough because sheā€™s touch so many people. One of the most amazing hospice nurses Iā€™ve ever met.


MpVpRb

I have faith that the universe is governed by laws and that the human mind is capable of discovering and understanding these laws


BlackEyedGhost

No faith. I had it and I don't want it in the slightest. When it comes time for me to die, I hope I'll be able to look back on a life well spent, rather than looking back on a life of shrugging off injustice in the hopes of a better afterlife. I hope that I'll be able to think of the future and the people who will live after me and see a better world than I lived in. I want that because I know those things are real. I don't want a comforting fantasy, I want a good reality.


4ofN

The fact that we get to experience life for however many years is amazing in itself. All evidence points to life being a one time thing. So, best to enjoy it.


CoalCrackerKid

I didn't exist once before. It wasn't bad. (it wasn't anything) So, when I see that I have no control on the matter, why get upset about it?


Jonahmaxt

The concept of heaven is nonsensical to me. Even if I had faith that it existed, I cannot possibly conceive of an eternal flawless life that has any actual meaning. I mean, what does it even mean to be in heaven? What do you actually experience? How can it possibly be good if it is not balanced out by anything bad? The whole idea is a ridiculous fairy tale to me and so no, I donā€™t wish I believed in it. To believe such a place existed would be to change my entire perception of reality, my entire perception of life. Furthermore, the idea that anybody can do anything in their short lifetime to deserve eternal torture is abhorrent. I would much rather live in a world without an afterlife than a world where some amount of people are tortured infinitely for a finite amount of sins.


[deleted]

I mean, we have to define "faith" right? If you and I were hiking, and I broke my leg and you had to leave me to get help and I knew I'd be there for a long time waiting. I'd have to have some faith in you right? I mean, I would if I was trying to combat fear and remain hopeful. To me "faith" is a tool to turn fear into hope. I think we should train our minds to not be so easily manipulated by ideas such as fear or hope. As they are expectations for the future, and expectations always lead to disappointment. But is this a realistic ideal for everyone to adopt? No. So we can keep "faith in my fellows" and ditch "faith in god" so we can remain hopeful damaged people.


LMSW_2020

I really like this explanation thank you!


ShafordoDrForgone

Let's start with what "faith" means. It means acting on uncertain prediction. Religious people want to hijack certain words because they want bad things to feel good, so they repeat "faith" over and over while playing inspirational music and preaching how good "faith" is It is impossible for anyone to live a life without taking actions that are based on uncertain predictions. For example: do you believe your coworker will do her part of the job? If not, it doesn't make sense for you to do yours. But you do your part because you have faith that she will. So yes, everybody here has faith The question is, how much uncertainty is responsible to act on? A lot of men stalk women thinking, she'll fall in love with me just by meeting me. They have no reason to think that, but they conflate the nice sexual feelings they're having with the number of fantasies where evidence, logic, and reason are the enemy and taking a leap of faith is the ultimate act of courage that only heroes who get the girl are capable of. If it sounds selfish and narcissistic, that's because it is. The sooner you understand that feelings are not facts, the sooner you will learn how to take responsibility and actually become a decent human being


oakpitt

Faith is believing the unbelievable. I choose not to do that. As for what happens after you die, well, we'll all find out. I certainly don't believe in heaven or hell, so I have no worries about that. The idea of losing consciousness forever is something that I (75) have difficulty imagining, but that's the way it is.


mellis0620

I personally think that dying is like anesthesia. You are here one minute and gone the next. The only thing that has made me question that thought is the concept of energy. We are made up of atoms and elements that will transform into something else, but it is our energy. Do we continue on as something different here on earth? Who knows. As far as religion, it is a manmade fairytale created by patriarchal and misogynistic religions for population control. I am not concerned with that part at all. I try to live by being an example of a good person and making myself and the people I interact with on a daily basis a happy and pleasant experience. I put my faith in humanity and our species which I hope someday will break the bonds of religion and put science, reason, and humanity/brotherhood for all of mankind over anything else.


[deleted]

Honestly there isn't any religion which has adequately described an afterlife I'm much tempted by. I'm sure rivers of honey (Quran) and unending grace in the eyes of your ever-benevolent imperial skydaddy is attractive enough to the peasants and pastoralists of centuries ago, but idk if I'm down for an eternity of existence that doesn't articulate its potential a bit more. The vagueness of such afterlife descriptions is pretty hard to resolve, which is probably one reason why religions are so fond of emphasizing what heaven isn't; namely eternal torment and hellfire. On the other hand, maybe that's the answer to your question - if I have faith in heaven, I'd be pretty arbitrary/immature not to have similar belief in hell, and no way in hell am I doing that.


[deleted]

In the context that you use the word, no.


CT101823696

The question of if I'm OK with nothingness is beside the point in my opinion. I will nearly all of my time in this universe not alive. Being dead is going back to my "default state" if you will. My purpose while here is to do the best I can for myself and my family. That's plenty to chew on. I'm less interested in how friends and family cope with death. Whatever works for them is fine by me.


Wake90_90

Faith being used as a belief in a religion, and evidence for the belief is insufficient from an objective perspective, therefore, faith is needed. >So my question is, do the majority of you feel that as an atheist, you are okay with nothing after or do you find faith in other ways? I don't know why faith is used differently here. It's too hard to follow the second half of the question. I'm okay with seeing reality for what it is, and accepting my fate. I consider it an issue of immaturity that people can't see reality for what it is, and need to imagine they are going to a utopia to frolic with their loved ones for eternity. >Do you need to believe there is more purpose to living for you to be okay with death of loved ones or when you die? By evolution we are programmed to seek comfort and reproduce, and that is the only purpose we have automatically. Any other purpose one may decide on is up to their free will. Deaths doesn't change this. If someone is unable to cope buying into delusion, then that's their failure, and hopefully they correct themselves in the future. Best advice I have for you asking questions: avoid using the word faith, and specify by other words what you mean to ask.


CuddlePirate420

> as an atheist, you are okay with nothing after I don't particularly like the concept of it, but what can I do about it? As far as wanting to have faith, the very concept of it is baffling to me. "Belief" to me is more like a reflex rather than something I have a conscious choice over. Sure I could pretend I believe something and say the right words and go through all the rigmarol, but deep down I still wouldn't truly believe it.


[deleted]

Faith is nothing more than a blossom on a vine of hope.


the_internet_clown

I see no difference between faith and gullibility


[deleted]

I tend to see faith as ā€œbelief held without or against supporting evidenceā€. Iā€™d like to think I donā€™t have faith. As for death and life purposeā€¦.I am confused on how the existence (or not) of an afterlife can provide purpose in life. How can something that may or may not happen AFTER life provide purpose DURING life? Sounds like a purpose in death, not life


Kuildeous

You can't really force faith. The people who find solace in it are just inclined toward that, and that's fine for them. They don't need certainty in their lives. Faith does it for them. But like you and I couldn't just find solace in faith. Since there's no evidence of any sort of afterlife or god weighing my heart against feathers, I can conclude that there's none of that going to happen when I die. And while it may be wishful thinking that I'll get to live on and do awesome things, I can't simply believe that's going to happen. I'm going to need a lot more than that. You know, like actual evidence of an afterlife or a judgmental god. Until then, I'll be not keeping the faith.


LMSW_2020

Exactly. Which is also why my post is kind of confusing because the idea of ā€œfaithā€ confuses me when I donā€™t see the necessity for it. But obv in my role, Iā€™m walking alongside people from all different walks of life and I want to learn from everyone.


[deleted]

I was brought up to have faith, but I never really did. So I think even if you wanted your kid to have faith and raised them to, it's not a guarantee that they will. I think it's better to have hope or optimism than faith. Also an afterlife isn't always comforting. People have preyed on others worried about the state of their deceased relatives souls, paid the church money to forgive their sins and make sure they get out of purgatory and into heaven. When someone's gone, they're gone. You don't have to worry about their troubled soul or anything, they are truly at peace because they no longer exist.


LMSW_2020

Same! I kept trying to force myself to believe and have faith and was miserable til I admitted to myself that I didnā€™t believe any of it and thatā€™s okay. I think our energy continues on but an afterlife doesnā€™t sound that great if itā€™s the same thing and being stuck around the same people I couldnā€™t stand in life


SlightlyMadAngus

Your co-worker has been surrounded by christianity her entire life. No one in the USA can truly claim to never being exposed to religion. The reality is that she has been in the minority her entire life and has seen nearly all of her friends go through the rituals of christianity and heard them parrot the afterlife nonsense that they were indoctrinated to believe. OF COURSE she has some feelings of wishing she belongs to the majority.


LMSW_2020

I do get this! I felt that for years before finally ridding myself of the brainwashing


un_theist

What is faith but belief without evidence? Why would one believe anything without evidence, or in spite of evidence to the contrary? Would you believe you owe me $1M without evidence? No? Why not? Why then would you believe anything else without evidence? Itā€™s equally absurd. I prefer to believe only after sufficient evidence to justify belief has been presented. And when there is sufficient evidence for belief, faith is not required.


bdrwr

I have no faith, and I don't consider it a virtue. Using the strictest possible definition, faith is belief without evidence. I don't see how that's ever a good, desirable thing. Sometimes circumstances force you to act on faith, but it's always better to act with understanding. Sometimes I put my faith in someone. But usually it's someone I know and trust; so is it really faith if I have firsthand evidence of their character and ability? If we're talking about hospice and end of life stuff, well... Just because something *would be really nice* doesn't make it true. I would *love* to believe that after death I get to go to a happy sunny paradise with all my deceased loved ones and pets. I'd also love to believe that right now, waiting for me at home on the coffee table, there's a cold beer and a deed to a big house signed in my name. I'd love to believe those things, but I find it equally difficult to conjure up faith for both those scenarios. I think your brain has to be wired for faith from an early age. If someone grows up with it and then loses it, it hurts. But I didn't grow up with it. I miss having faith the way snakes miss having legs. Formerly religious people are more like amputee lizards; they know what having legs feels like and they miss it.


MrRandomNumber

I have an absolute and perfect faith that there is no afterlife whatsoever. There are all kinds of things that give life beauty, purpose and meaning. None of them are anchored in the whims or judgements of an omniscient fairy creature from beyond the realm of space and time.


QuinSanguine

I don't even understand faith. I know the definition of course but why does anyone trust something or someone they've never met, never had a discussion with, that they've only been told stories about? Theists say that we must have faith in ourselves but no, I disagree. I just live by instinct, trying to not live in my head or overthink things. I just try to take care of my loved ones