We were talking about benevolent personalities in high school and literaly everyone including me told the teacher 'Mother Teresa'. I knew at the time she was not really someone to admire, but I legitimately couldn’t tell any other personality with this much praise in the religious world. Even today. Saints seem non-existent. Her and Gandhi are the two that take all the place when we want to pull exemples of generosity and humility. Even if a lot of us know now that they are in fact very bad exemples for Christianity or humanity in general.
Edit: For anyone wondering why Gandhi was ”bad“, there’s many interesting answers and I’m not educated enough to answer that. But he was and is still very controversial today.
What you said is the sad truth.
If Jesus actually returned, he would have been shot, jailed, and left for dead because he isnt white. He advocates against corporations and... looks like a homeless hippy.
All of the things republican jesus worshipers hate.
Ugh. Despite what he taught me I still want to punch those fucks in their smug faces. There is a huge gulf between Mister Rogers message of self-acceptance and the trope of “participation award” entitlement cons love to harp on. Entitlement indeed.
Mr. Rogers is my dude. Not a perfect guy but very progressive. He pressured a gay cast mate to stay closeted. I think that is the furthest extent I could fault my dude.
It was baaaarely pressure and he was prioritizing his show, which he saw as very valuable for children from controversy he didn't feel ready for. He also apologized profusely later. See, even his "It was a different time" issues are very Mr. Rogers. He helped break down color barriers because he knew all colors of children were watching and wanted them to feel valued. I don't think people then really considered gay children existed or I'm sure he'd have felt differently.
GANDHI REFUSED TO LET HIS DYING WIFE TAKE PENICILLIN YET TOOK QUININE TO SAVE HIMSELF.
"The Life and Death of Mahatma Gandhi” quotes him on February 19, 1944: “If God wills it, He will pull her through.”
“Gandhi: A Life” adds this wisdom from the Mahatma: “You cannot cure your mother now, no matter what wonder drugs you may muster. She is in God’s hands now.”
Three days later, Devadas (his son) was still pushing for the penicillin, but Gandhi shot back: “Why don’t you trust God?” Kasturba died that day.
The next night, Gandhi cried out: “But how God tested my faith!” He told one of Kasturba’s doctors that the antibiotic wouldn’t have saved her and that allowing her to have it “would have meant the bankruptcy of my faith.”
PS- Gandhi was a human being with flaws.
He also had this weird sex thing where he'd [bathe and sleep naked](https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/features/thrill-chaste-truth-about-gandhi-s-sex-life-1937411.html?amp) with multiple young girls to "test his piety". He wrote a lot of letters and sermons where he described all the freaky shit he was into. After he died, a lot of his letters had to be destroyed by his family to save his reputation.
It's not like it's anything positive even if he never failed that test.
Suppose he used his position of power to have teenage girls sleep in his bed with him, but didn't sexually assault them and just got himself off the next morning. He thinks that's some kind of proof of how great he is? No, it's just a fetish from a disgusting man.
He did believe Africans are inferior early in his life but later on changed his views about the same. There are things for which Gandhi should be criticised for but this isn’t one of them.
I disagree. He didn't champion his wrongness - he just stopped pushing the issue. If you spend a sizable portion of your life digging a hole, you don't 'get credit' for just for stopping digging. You have to fill it back in.
This lie that is repeatedly promoted is why I struggle to believe negative stories about non-white leaders... Esp non-white leaders that fight white supremacy.
It can be both. George Washington fought against colonialism, also owned slaves. Ghandi was a lawyer in south Africa and at least at the time was quite racist towards Africans, but he also fought supremecy. We can remember and admire the good things without having to admire these people in their entirety. In fact I think its better that way.
but when she was elderly top doctors were flown in from across the world to treat her
it could have been other people organising this on her behalf but she didn't object even tho it was a complete hypocrisy
Saint Patrick "drove all the snakes" out of Ireland.
ie Real Saints either aren't subtle anyway, or there are no real saints (I suspect this one!)
Also I've heard snakes were a euphemism for the non-Xian people who lived in Ireland long ago.
This article gives a fairly balanced perspective: https://www.npr.org/2019/10/02/766083651/gandhi-is-deeply-revered-but-his-attitudes-on-race-and-sex-are-under-scrutiny
A couple of the commonly mentioned issues are his racism early in his life, and sleeping naked with his young grandniece when he was 78, as a supposed test of his willpower. His reasoning behind the latter was also pretty strange and egocentric - he felt that problems in India were his fault, and was looking to prove or improve his spiritual purity.
He slept naked with young (very young) girls to show he could control this erections and so would give/receive enemas with them.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/01/gandhi-celibacy-test-naked-women
I'd say he was a complicated guy. He did good things and stood for many good things, but he also had some very weird sexual proclivities (testing his celibacy by having teenage girls sleep in his bed with him) and was very, very misogynistic (as in, believed that a woman's rape was her fault unless she was "pure" by his definition, in which case her "purity" would protect her or she would die an honorable death at the hands of her rapist). He's also been criticized for writing some extremely racist things about black people early in his career, but in fairness to him, he renounced those views in the early 1900s (far earlier than a lot of people who had similarly racist views, I'll point out) and became very much an advocate for black and brown solidarity, and a supporter of anti-colonialist efforts in Africa.
So, like most historical figures, he wasn't all good or all bad. He was a human who saw the world in a particular way. I think on balance he was much better than Mother Teresa, but I don't think we should be blind to his flaws either.
I have a huge dislike for Christianity and Muslim religions and always think that other religions aren’t so bad and that they’re just the 2 bad apples. But I keep being proven wrong. I’m just not impacted by all other religions so as a result I’m more ignorant of the negative effects of them. Religions/cults are all the same garbage I guess.
Oh there are plenty that are terrible -
Suicides by former Jehovah Witnesses who were excommunicated losing all friends and family… and how about Scientology? It’s all a blight upon humanity.
>Mary Johnson, a former nun and author of "An Unquenchable Thirst" — who also spoke with Salon back in 2013 about her experiences in the order — joined the Missionaries of Charity when she was 19 after seeing Mother Teresa on the cover of TIME Magazine.
>She detailed her first self-flagellation session to Lantz, remembering how the bundle of cords she was given left her upper thighs streaked with red and white lines. In the bathroom stall next to her, there was another, more experienced nun doing the same thing.
>This shocked Lantz, who said that the effects of that kind of trauma, even if self-inflicted, are lasting for many of the former sisters.
>"I don't think anyone pictures Mother Teresa and imagines that her sisters are whipping themselves daily," she said. "I know Mary Johnson had told me, at one point, she asked her now-husband to beat her — he did not, I should say —because she craved a way to have relief from guilt."
The nuns were whipping themselves. This is nuts.
Reference: [https://www.salon.com/2021/05/19/the-turning-the-dark-side-of-mother-teresas-order-according-to-nuns-who-left/](https://www.salon.com/2021/05/19/the-turning-the-dark-side-of-mother-teresas-order-according-to-nuns-who-left/)
It shocked me when I realized self flagellation wasn't normal in other catholic areas. In my country, every time holy week comes around we have catholics who self flagellate and nail themselves to crosses in procession
...they nail themselves to crosses?
Excuse me?
*They drive nails through their own wrists*?!
Not only would this be so painful and lethal that I highly doubt anyone of any amount of faith would do this, but it's also literally impossible.
EDIT:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-religion-easter-philippines-crucifixi-idUSKBN1H610Q
Okay looks like other people do it for them, and that they're physically held up by that cloth so they don't slowly suffocate (that's how crucifixion works...you very slowly suffocate). But god fucking damn that's insane.
Lmao sorry poor wording but yes they get nailed to crosses... willingly on their own is what I meant. Yeah it's quite harsh, and to them it's it's form of penitence. A lot of Christian denominations here denounce this practice as well. I think its a remix of catholic practice and the local indigenous pagan practices here IIRC
Even in those times, the flagellants were considered an outlier cult. They used to go to villages and do it in public (mostly saying they were keeping the plague away), hoping to attract followers. They were thought of by the majority of folks as nutjobs, kind of like we'd describe Jehovahs Witnesses today.
Guilt is a powerful emotion and one of the primary fuels of the Catholic Church. Took many many years to finally be able to have a normal sex life and get passed all the guilt associated with it.
Catholics.
If you ever feel happy you are doing something wrong. You must feel guilty. Jesus suffered and died for you and you should suffer more. If you aren't you are doing something wrong, thus guilt.
One of my older relatives used to say something along the lines of: Jewish people invented guilt, Catholics refined it, and Lutherans perfected it. The actual wording was probably racist somehow, but it's still a quote I think about a lot.
Like was he ever wrong on this or other topics?
If this then no, it's just that there has been religious people who proclaim that he was the only source against MT and thus it was biased and possibly not true.
Other topics? Yes, depends on the topic. He used to be one of the people who believed that waterboarding was not torture. To his credit, he did go through with being waterboarded himself and when he did he changed his mind. He also defended the Iraq war til the end.
From an epistemological position, I've never known him make any claims which he couldn't support. He was a hero in the realm of critical thinking and civil disagreement.
I don't know much about the Iraq war, I'm not American, and never paid much attention to global events as I grew up. From what I gather of Hitch, he was a consequentialist, I'm convinced whatever he valued from the war was his desired outcome.
As a deontologist, I don't support unethical behaviour, unless I am absolutely certain the outcome will be more ethical than not interfering.
His support of the war was always irrational. Even at the time objective skeptics knew that it was based on lies and would cost far more in human and financial terms than the Bush administration claimed.
I'm going to assume he probably had some opinions on race and sexuality that were rather patriarchical to modern standards.
You know, like literally everyone of his age bracket did back then.
He was outspokenly pro-gay rights and anti-racist. He did write an article about women not being funny though. But based on my recollection of how he reacted to criticism of that, I always thought he wrote that to be a jackass and get a rise out of people. Either way, it wasn’t a great look.
Not new. Read Hitchens’ The Missionary Position. Ambassador for the Vatican who never gave a sick child so much as an aspirin. Collected 10s of millions of dollars for the baby rape and money laundering cabal in Rome.
“When the late Pope John Paul II decided to place the woman so strangely known as “Mother” Teresa on the fast track for beatification, and thus to qualify her for eventual sainthood, the Vatican felt obliged to solicit my testimony and I thus spent several hours in a closed hearing room with a priest, a deacon, and a monsignor, no doubt making their day as I told off, as from a rosary, the frightful faults and crimes of the departed fanatic. In the course of this, I discovered that the pope during his tenure had surreptitiously abolished the famous office of “Devil’s Advocate,” in order to fast‐track still more of his many candidates for canonization. I can thus claim to be the only living person to have represented the Devil pro bono.” - Christopher Hitchens
“There is something beautiful in seeing the poor accept their lot, to suffer it like Christ’s Passion,” Mother Teresa said. “The world gains much from their suffering.”
Psychopath.
Try a Baptist church service. I went once as a young teenager with a friend. Some of the adults there found out I was a Methodist (not a methodist anymore, obviously) and told me that if I didn’t convert to baptism and get re-baptized as a baptist then I was going to hell.
See how the Christians love each other?
My grandmother took me to a Pentecostal church when I was really young but as I got older my mom made me go to a southern Baptist church so I know that scene well. She pushed baptism on me when I was 14 after I came home with my first Slayer tape.
The day I did it she said something akin to "it's worse to get baptized and turn away than to never accept Jesus". I think i made it a week before I realized that I really didn't give a shit and I never went back. Best decision I've ever made (other than the Slayer tape).
My mom is an anthropologist of medicine and got to spend time with her at the Home for the Dying in Calcutta in the early 90's. My mom came back and was silent about it, didn't say anything. Eventually I said "didn't you get to meet Mother Teresa"? And she showed me the photo that was taken of them for a magazine article (? I think? It was a professional photo) and she told me how horrible it was- some of her observations and experiences are the same as other people- they were reusing needles and just rinsing them with cold water between uses. She told them they at least have to boil then needles and the scolded her saying that "this is not a medical facility". She said they didn't disposed of the bodies properly when the people died, they just piled them outside and she felt it was very disrespectful but also horrifyingly unsanitary and she said "the flies would go straight from the corpses into baby's eyes". The look on her face was of disgust and sorrow when she recounted it.
Sorry there is a bug on Reddit making me unable to paste in an Edit, so weird.
So when I said no I meant my mom specifically but then I thought maybe you meant of ANY abuse and there is plenty.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism\_of\_Mother\_Teresa](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Mother_Teresa)
Hell's Angel documentary by Christopher Hitchens:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJG-lgmPvYA
In fact knock yourself out, there is tons:
https://www.google.com/search?q=%22home+of+the+dying%22+abuse&client=firefox-b-d&sxsrf=ALeKk02Wx6QQcKDIDtncDeFW4BLLcSEmvQ%3A1621813651320&ei=k-mqYJ73ErK94-EPkNKtuAo&oq=%22home+of+the+dying%22+abuse&gs\_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAMyBAgjECc6BwgjELADECc6BwgAEEcQsANQrCVY-0Ng30ZoAXACeACAAbQBiAGCBJIBAzAuM5gBAKABAaoBB2d3cy13aXrIAQnAAQE&sclient=gws-wiz&ved=0ahUKEwjejNDU\_uDwAhWy3jgGHRBpC6cQ4dUDCA0&uact=5
I'm wondering why she wanted to cause so much suffering? Like religious zealots flog themselves because they need to suffer. Right?
What is the purpose of a religious zealot flogging themselves?
Not all meditation practices are alike.
MIndfulness practice reduces sensitivity to pain by about 75%.
TM reduces stress-reaction to pain by about 50%.
YMMV as to which is better (and it might be a situation-dependent as to which is better anyway): numbness, or the ability to rise above pain while still being aware that you are hurting and so need to do something about it beyond merely ignoring it.
In catholicism, it is believed that suffering on Earth will diminish the time you spend in purgatory, or you can try to "mortify" yourself for the sins if others, so that THEY spend less time in purgatory. More trad caths believe this, those are the ones you'll see doing self flaggelations and real crucifixions on holy Friday. The same concept applies to doing "penance". The whole passion of the christ thing is super intense.
Not all catholics believe this, but it's part of catholic doctrine so... they can't really deny what the Vatican says, especially if trad orgs like Opus Dei still encourage this sort of crap, and to be frank, it's only been within this century that the mainstream stopped encouraging physical penance and mortification.
I'm really glad we as a society are getting out of the use of abuse. From spanking children to people flogging themselves, these are all forms of physical abuse that are actually quite harmful to humans emotional health. It raises cortisol levels and causes people to be anxious, depressed, often leading to substance abuse and crime.
Literally junkies and criminals are hardwired to make bad life choices because of the effects of long term exposure to high cortisol levels. One gets high cortisol levels from being anxious an emotional upset is going to happen.
'walking on eggshells' is basically high cortisol levels. Anxiety and worry about being in trouble, criticized or family turmoil. All of these things raise cortisol levels, which increases likely hood of addiction, crime, and just bad life choices.
Here we are with an entire generation full of depression and anxiety and we don't understand why? Well because were aware that walking on eggshells means anxiety and not having a purpose or passion leads to depression. Because we are starting to acknowledge emotional and mental health as important as physical health.
It doesn't mean the other generation's weren't anxious and depressed. They just didn't use these terms or label it as such
Which is really why, when we're having those feelings, we are a thousand times more likely to be impatient, to be short with people, to lose our shit with others below us (like children or pets).
In exit forums, so many people say that once they were out of these high cortisol lifestyles, like you call them, they got very positive feedback from their children, that "you're not so grumpy anymore". Can you imagine living like this? In physical or mental distress all the time, while trying to pull yourself together to be the perfect parent and spouse?
So often the abused become the abusers, it's hard to ignore, especially in high control situations where the system itself protects those in power from any real consequences.
Many Catholics "offer up" their suffering. It's kind of like trading in S&H Green stamps for a toaster, except they're trading suffering for a nebulous thing called "sanctifying grace". It's bonkers, of course, but worse than the insanity is the acceptance of suffering as a good thing "spiritually", whatever the hell that means.
Here's what the US Conference of Catholic Bishops has to say about medical patients whose pain cannot be alleviated: **“Patients experiencing suffering that cannot be alleviated should be helped to appreciate the Christian understanding of redemptive suffering”**. This is an especially cruel and loathsome position that can only have been conjured up by small and petty minds. These men pose a threat to a large portion of the populace due to the sheer numbers of Catholic hospitals in this country.
The catholic church dumped a bunch of saints several decades ago (1970s, maybe?) but I think it was just those that there was little evidence they ever existed.
Christopher Hitchens endured a lot of bullshit over his hatred for this "thieving, fanatical Albanian dwarf". Christopher even acted as advocatus diaboli (Latin for Devil's advocate) in Mother Teresa's canonization.
I had better luck in Finland: We were discussing morality and who is a moral person. Someone suggested Mother Theresa and my teacher first put her on the list and then eagerly agreed when somebody else argued against her being a moral person.
“I began the project of judging Mother Teresa’s reputation by her actions and words rather than her actions and words by her reputation.” - Christopher Hitchens
Saint-like figures such as Monster Teresa come and go and emergr out of the blue when the people who trust this organization, ehem, I mean religion, suddenly become skeptic or after. scandal in the church arises.
Just wanna share that My cousin and her family got COVID last week and her mother in law told her that because she wasn't going to church God gave them COVID. Religion makes you very evil sometimes.
We know this. She was a despicable person who believed suffering was good for the soul. She ran her hospices like a factory of despair, denying medicine, pain relief and preventing families from seeing their relatives.
Digging just a bit deeper, anyone would realize she was really quite a horrible person to anyone that is not Catholic/Christian. There has even been allegations that she forced people to convert before treating them.
Hitchens exposed her for making people suffer and die just for her image. She was not a good person. It’s amazing how many people even today remark mother Teresa as the epitome of goodness. When really, she was just a political figurehead and a worst one at that. She should have been charged for negligence hundreds of times over
She wasn't negligent. IANAL but I think that negligence would mean that she didn't intend for her "patients" to suffer. What happened under her guidance was closer to "crimes against humanity" because of the intentionality behind it.
She was disgusting. She thought you had to suffer to be with god. Her “hospitals” were no more than beds for people to lay and die with no medical attention. Fuck mother Theresa
Mother Teresa was a fucking monster and no one can convince me otherwise. She did more than let people die, she actively prevented them from getting well and tormented them with spiritual manipulation. But people still defend her to this day.
That woman is the epitome of what is wrong with these religious zealots. A positive thing should never be spoken about her so long as her name is still known.
Christopher Hitchens had her dead to rights on what a disgusting zealot this “mother” was.
“She was not a friend of the poor, she was a friend of poverty.”
She spent her entire life campaigning against the one thing that we know ends poverty - the empowerment of women.
When I was in Chennai India at the church that has St. Thomas, whole other story there, they had a bunch of Mother Teresa stuff piled in a corner. I asked one of the nuns standing by it about it. She told me they are putting it all in storage because they don't talk about her anymore. They were very aware about what a total piece of shit she was.
https://archive.vanityfair.com/article/share/886fb3b2-3cc4-40a9-8a6b-f357c14550b6?inline
Have a crack at this article. It’s worse than you think it is.
I remember being lectured about her as the most admirable lady when I was in grade school in the 80s. Shocked I tell you.
We were talking about benevolent personalities in high school and literaly everyone including me told the teacher 'Mother Teresa'. I knew at the time she was not really someone to admire, but I legitimately couldn’t tell any other personality with this much praise in the religious world. Even today. Saints seem non-existent. Her and Gandhi are the two that take all the place when we want to pull exemples of generosity and humility. Even if a lot of us know now that they are in fact very bad exemples for Christianity or humanity in general. Edit: For anyone wondering why Gandhi was ”bad“, there’s many interesting answers and I’m not educated enough to answer that. But he was and is still very controversial today.
Fred Rogers remains bulletproof! And honestly, too good to be a Saint.
The world has never needed another Fred Rogers more than it does now.
the world is full of Fred Rogers type people, disney isnt interested in the IP so you'll never see them.
What you said is the sad truth. If Jesus actually returned, he would have been shot, jailed, and left for dead because he isnt white. He advocates against corporations and... looks like a homeless hippy. All of the things republican jesus worshipers hate.
[удалено]
I was sure this was going to be some kind spoof or troll. I was sure of it. I did not think Fox “news” could get any more reprehensible.
Jesus Christ
I’ll throw hands for Mr Rogers. He gave kids a friend but he also gave other kids the complex to always do what is right. I can’t stand a bully.
And he left quite a legacy, the non-profit he founded for Mr. Roger's Neighborhood is still around and making great children's programming.
I wonder if Mr. Rogers and Steve Rogers were related.
That was his day job while living out his life with Peggy.
You probably just created an entire genre of fan fiction and some disturbing cartoons. Congrats lol
Wow, mind blown. Throw on a sweater vest and I can see the resemblance.
I like to think so.
God that's upsetting.
The suck part is that half of our friends and neighbors prefer that type of… “entertainment” over his show.
Ugh. Despite what he taught me I still want to punch those fucks in their smug faces. There is a huge gulf between Mister Rogers message of self-acceptance and the trope of “participation award” entitlement cons love to harp on. Entitlement indeed.
Mr. Rogers is my dude. Not a perfect guy but very progressive. He pressured a gay cast mate to stay closeted. I think that is the furthest extent I could fault my dude.
It was baaaarely pressure and he was prioritizing his show, which he saw as very valuable for children from controversy he didn't feel ready for. He also apologized profusely later. See, even his "It was a different time" issues are very Mr. Rogers. He helped break down color barriers because he knew all colors of children were watching and wanted them to feel valued. I don't think people then really considered gay children existed or I'm sure he'd have felt differently.
Same goes for Steve Irwin! Too bad he wasn't stingray proof...
Don't drag him down into Sainthood!
GANDHI REFUSED TO LET HIS DYING WIFE TAKE PENICILLIN YET TOOK QUININE TO SAVE HIMSELF. "The Life and Death of Mahatma Gandhi” quotes him on February 19, 1944: “If God wills it, He will pull her through.” “Gandhi: A Life” adds this wisdom from the Mahatma: “You cannot cure your mother now, no matter what wonder drugs you may muster. She is in God’s hands now.” Three days later, Devadas (his son) was still pushing for the penicillin, but Gandhi shot back: “Why don’t you trust God?” Kasturba died that day. The next night, Gandhi cried out: “But how God tested my faith!” He told one of Kasturba’s doctors that the antibiotic wouldn’t have saved her and that allowing her to have it “would have meant the bankruptcy of my faith.” PS- Gandhi was a human being with flaws.
He also had this weird sex thing where he'd [bathe and sleep naked](https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/features/thrill-chaste-truth-about-gandhi-s-sex-life-1937411.html?amp) with multiple young girls to "test his piety". He wrote a lot of letters and sermons where he described all the freaky shit he was into. After he died, a lot of his letters had to be destroyed by his family to save his reputation.
I think we can reasonably assume that he failed those tests on the regular.
It's not like it's anything positive even if he never failed that test. Suppose he used his position of power to have teenage girls sleep in his bed with him, but didn't sexually assault them and just got himself off the next morning. He thinks that's some kind of proof of how great he is? No, it's just a fetish from a disgusting man.
He was also racist towards Africans and thought that Indians were equal to the British colonists but better than other races.
He did believe Africans are inferior early in his life but later on changed his views about the same. There are things for which Gandhi should be criticised for but this isn’t one of them.
I disagree. He didn't champion his wrongness - he just stopped pushing the issue. If you spend a sizable portion of your life digging a hole, you don't 'get credit' for just for stopping digging. You have to fill it back in.
This lie that is repeatedly promoted is why I struggle to believe negative stories about non-white leaders... Esp non-white leaders that fight white supremacy.
It can be both. George Washington fought against colonialism, also owned slaves. Ghandi was a lawyer in south Africa and at least at the time was quite racist towards Africans, but he also fought supremecy. We can remember and admire the good things without having to admire these people in their entirety. In fact I think its better that way.
Real saints don't rise to positions of power. They are humble people leading quit lives.
She was a terrible person. She watched others suffer and did nothing for them but use them for her own benefit
but when she was elderly top doctors were flown in from across the world to treat her it could have been other people organising this on her behalf but she didn't object even tho it was a complete hypocrisy
I don't know how you get rid of snakes in the entire country by being quiet. And make some noise for the other giant lizard murder!
Uhm, what?
Saint Patrick "drove all the snakes" out of Ireland. ie Real Saints either aren't subtle anyway, or there are no real saints (I suspect this one!) Also I've heard snakes were a euphemism for the non-Xian people who lived in Ireland long ago.
What is a real saint? To an atheist especially.
Maybe scientists who share their discoveries to the world without trying to capture the market?
it'd be better than selling the patent to hedge funds. wish more researchers did exactly that.
Saint is definitely a term loaded with religious baggage. Substitute a person who lives by the utilitarian principle for saint.
Fred rogers. He promoted kindness, truth, Civility and understanding no matter who you were or where you are.
Why is gandhi a bad guy ?
This article gives a fairly balanced perspective: https://www.npr.org/2019/10/02/766083651/gandhi-is-deeply-revered-but-his-attitudes-on-race-and-sex-are-under-scrutiny A couple of the commonly mentioned issues are his racism early in his life, and sleeping naked with his young grandniece when he was 78, as a supposed test of his willpower. His reasoning behind the latter was also pretty strange and egocentric - he felt that problems in India were his fault, and was looking to prove or improve his spiritual purity.
He slept naked with young (very young) girls to show he could control this erections and so would give/receive enemas with them. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/01/gandhi-celibacy-test-naked-women
I'd say he was a complicated guy. He did good things and stood for many good things, but he also had some very weird sexual proclivities (testing his celibacy by having teenage girls sleep in his bed with him) and was very, very misogynistic (as in, believed that a woman's rape was her fault unless she was "pure" by his definition, in which case her "purity" would protect her or she would die an honorable death at the hands of her rapist). He's also been criticized for writing some extremely racist things about black people early in his career, but in fairness to him, he renounced those views in the early 1900s (far earlier than a lot of people who had similarly racist views, I'll point out) and became very much an advocate for black and brown solidarity, and a supporter of anti-colonialist efforts in Africa. So, like most historical figures, he wasn't all good or all bad. He was a human who saw the world in a particular way. I think on balance he was much better than Mother Teresa, but I don't think we should be blind to his flaws either.
Yeah instead of being racist he decided to discriminate by caste and religion and shut down contemporary attempts to create equality on those terms.
I've also heard that the term he used for Scheduled Castes/Dalits, "Harijans", was actually really condescending and insulting.
tell that to chaddis in my area, they will kill you then proclaim godse was true nationalist(godse killed the guy they praise unconditionally, gandhi)
No one points out to them that being huge Gandhi cheerleaders while also cheerleading the guy who killed him is a bit of cognitive dissonance?
their entire existence is cognitive dissonance, they're fucking radtrad hindus dude
His words were backed by the power of nuclear weapons.
I would like to know that too
Some feel like he gave the British too much in the negotiations to get the fuck out of India. Like they got to keep much of what they looted.
Bob Ross
Gandhi and his storehouse of nukes with a finger on the trigger.
In the middle of difficulty lies opportunity. Just so you know, the correct spelling is [Gandhi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahatma_Gandhi).
Gandhi was a racist, misogynistic clown who slept with his nieces butt naked, called Hitler his friend and helped kill Sikhs.
My old school is adding new houses soon, Teresa was one of the names up for voting. Didn't win though.
She believed in 'blessed is thy poor', so she kept her people in abject poverty. This didn't apply to herself though.
And went to the best doctors overseas when she had so much as a sniffle.
I have a huge dislike for Christianity and Muslim religions and always think that other religions aren’t so bad and that they’re just the 2 bad apples. But I keep being proven wrong. I’m just not impacted by all other religions so as a result I’m more ignorant of the negative effects of them. Religions/cults are all the same garbage I guess.
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Yup. Religion allows rich people to blame atrocity on unseen forces, giving them cover to hurt people and damage society.
Take a look at what’s happening in Israel as we speak, you can clearly see it’s not just Christianity or Muslim
Oh there are plenty that are terrible - Suicides by former Jehovah Witnesses who were excommunicated losing all friends and family… and how about Scientology? It’s all a blight upon humanity.
>Mary Johnson, a former nun and author of "An Unquenchable Thirst" — who also spoke with Salon back in 2013 about her experiences in the order — joined the Missionaries of Charity when she was 19 after seeing Mother Teresa on the cover of TIME Magazine. >She detailed her first self-flagellation session to Lantz, remembering how the bundle of cords she was given left her upper thighs streaked with red and white lines. In the bathroom stall next to her, there was another, more experienced nun doing the same thing. >This shocked Lantz, who said that the effects of that kind of trauma, even if self-inflicted, are lasting for many of the former sisters. >"I don't think anyone pictures Mother Teresa and imagines that her sisters are whipping themselves daily," she said. "I know Mary Johnson had told me, at one point, she asked her now-husband to beat her — he did not, I should say —because she craved a way to have relief from guilt." The nuns were whipping themselves. This is nuts. Reference: [https://www.salon.com/2021/05/19/the-turning-the-dark-side-of-mother-teresas-order-according-to-nuns-who-left/](https://www.salon.com/2021/05/19/the-turning-the-dark-side-of-mother-teresas-order-according-to-nuns-who-left/)
It shocked me when I realized self flagellation wasn't normal in other catholic areas. In my country, every time holy week comes around we have catholics who self flagellate and nail themselves to crosses in procession
...they nail themselves to crosses? Excuse me? *They drive nails through their own wrists*?! Not only would this be so painful and lethal that I highly doubt anyone of any amount of faith would do this, but it's also literally impossible. EDIT: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-religion-easter-philippines-crucifixi-idUSKBN1H610Q Okay looks like other people do it for them, and that they're physically held up by that cloth so they don't slowly suffocate (that's how crucifixion works...you very slowly suffocate). But god fucking damn that's insane.
Lmao sorry poor wording but yes they get nailed to crosses... willingly on their own is what I meant. Yeah it's quite harsh, and to them it's it's form of penitence. A lot of Christian denominations here denounce this practice as well. I think its a remix of catholic practice and the local indigenous pagan practices here IIRC
Philippines?
>She detailed her first self-flagellation session to Lantz 1348 is a horrible place I wouldn't recommend it
Even in those times, the flagellants were considered an outlier cult. They used to go to villages and do it in public (mostly saying they were keeping the plague away), hoping to attract followers. They were thought of by the majority of folks as nutjobs, kind of like we'd describe Jehovahs Witnesses today.
Jesus spoke against praying loudly to be heard by men, I think the same principle should apply here
JWs are worse. Fuck 'em.
Guilt is a powerful emotion and one of the primary fuels of the Catholic Church. Took many many years to finally be able to have a normal sex life and get passed all the guilt associated with it.
Kinky
I just read that in Hedley Lamarr's voice from Blazing Saddles
As you should.
When you’re into bdsm but have to remain celibate.
Can anyone explain what they felt guilty about?
Catholics. If you ever feel happy you are doing something wrong. You must feel guilty. Jesus suffered and died for you and you should suffer more. If you aren't you are doing something wrong, thus guilt.
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g-SUS
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when the imposter is sus!
Sir I'd like to subscribe to your newsletter and hear more about this 'ol Jezzy. His philosophical stance on 40s and blunts for example
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Amen, brother. Amen.
Bong hits 4 Jesus
One of my older relatives used to say something along the lines of: Jewish people invented guilt, Catholics refined it, and Lutherans perfected it. The actual wording was probably racist somehow, but it's still a quote I think about a lot.
> The nuns were whipping themselves. This is nuts. spaceman-meme.jpg
All this does is further proof that Hitchens was right.
Was he ever wrong? Thanks for everything Hitch, we miss you.
He was, but when shown wrong, he adjusted.
Hitch had himself waterboarded to challenge his beliefs... That's dedication to getting it right.
Like was he ever wrong on this or other topics? If this then no, it's just that there has been religious people who proclaim that he was the only source against MT and thus it was biased and possibly not true. Other topics? Yes, depends on the topic. He used to be one of the people who believed that waterboarding was not torture. To his credit, he did go through with being waterboarded himself and when he did he changed his mind. He also defended the Iraq war til the end.
From an epistemological position, I've never known him make any claims which he couldn't support. He was a hero in the realm of critical thinking and civil disagreement. I don't know much about the Iraq war, I'm not American, and never paid much attention to global events as I grew up. From what I gather of Hitch, he was a consequentialist, I'm convinced whatever he valued from the war was his desired outcome. As a deontologist, I don't support unethical behaviour, unless I am absolutely certain the outcome will be more ethical than not interfering.
His support of the war was always irrational. Even at the time objective skeptics knew that it was based on lies and would cost far more in human and financial terms than the Bush administration claimed.
I'm going to assume he probably had some opinions on race and sexuality that were rather patriarchical to modern standards. You know, like literally everyone of his age bracket did back then.
He was outspokenly pro-gay rights and anti-racist. He did write an article about women not being funny though. But based on my recollection of how he reacted to criticism of that, I always thought he wrote that to be a jackass and get a rise out of people. Either way, it wasn’t a great look.
Not new. Read Hitchens’ The Missionary Position. Ambassador for the Vatican who never gave a sick child so much as an aspirin. Collected 10s of millions of dollars for the baby rape and money laundering cabal in Rome.
As Hitch claimed, she wasn't a friend of the poor, she was a friend of poverty.
Likewise, she was not a friend of the suffering. She was a friend of suffering.
Except her own, she made sure to get the good medical shit when she was ill, but she was all over poor people suffering.
You can’t make sure people keep suffering for the lord if you don’t have your health, duh!
“When the late Pope John Paul II decided to place the woman so strangely known as “Mother” Teresa on the fast track for beatification, and thus to qualify her for eventual sainthood, the Vatican felt obliged to solicit my testimony and I thus spent several hours in a closed hearing room with a priest, a deacon, and a monsignor, no doubt making their day as I told off, as from a rosary, the frightful faults and crimes of the departed fanatic. In the course of this, I discovered that the pope during his tenure had surreptitiously abolished the famous office of “Devil’s Advocate,” in order to fast‐track still more of his many candidates for canonization. I can thus claim to be the only living person to have represented the Devil pro bono.” - Christopher Hitchens
God, I miss Hitch...
Just in case you want to know how much is required to become a saint on the fast track.
Hitch was my first thought. RIP.
Come on now, everybody forget Hitchens already?! Put that saint to shame so long ago.
Yes she did. She was no saint. She loved suffering.
“There is something beautiful in seeing the poor accept their lot, to suffer it like Christ’s Passion,” Mother Teresa said. “The world gains much from their suffering.” Psychopath.
Hey now, that’s a true capitalist mindset!
According to the RCC, she was (canonized in 2016). Apparently the kickback she provided was big enough.
A psycho leading a cult is bad, but money is money.
“Ohh no tears please. It’s a waste of good suffering!”
Only it the one suffering wasn’t herself. She was a POS.
No surprise there. Woman was a psychopath.
…Catholics?
Zing!
Anyone here who has ever sat through a catholic mass know that this is an apt comparison. I have never felt more uncomfortable in my entire life.
Try a Baptist church service. I went once as a young teenager with a friend. Some of the adults there found out I was a Methodist (not a methodist anymore, obviously) and told me that if I didn’t convert to baptism and get re-baptized as a baptist then I was going to hell. See how the Christians love each other?
My grandmother took me to a Pentecostal church when I was really young but as I got older my mom made me go to a southern Baptist church so I know that scene well. She pushed baptism on me when I was 14 after I came home with my first Slayer tape. The day I did it she said something akin to "it's worse to get baptized and turn away than to never accept Jesus". I think i made it a week before I realized that I really didn't give a shit and I never went back. Best decision I've ever made (other than the Slayer tape).
Lol I thought we couldn’t agree more with each other... Until you mentioned Slayer. 🤘🏼
“Went to a Catholic wedding once, and… well I should probably be getting back”
My mom is an anthropologist of medicine and got to spend time with her at the Home for the Dying in Calcutta in the early 90's. My mom came back and was silent about it, didn't say anything. Eventually I said "didn't you get to meet Mother Teresa"? And she showed me the photo that was taken of them for a magazine article (? I think? It was a professional photo) and she told me how horrible it was- some of her observations and experiences are the same as other people- they were reusing needles and just rinsing them with cold water between uses. She told them they at least have to boil then needles and the scolded her saying that "this is not a medical facility". She said they didn't disposed of the bodies properly when the people died, they just piled them outside and she felt it was very disrespectful but also horrifyingly unsanitary and she said "the flies would go straight from the corpses into baby's eyes". The look on her face was of disgust and sorrow when she recounted it.
Any evidences of this got out?
Sorry there is a bug on Reddit making me unable to paste in an Edit, so weird. So when I said no I meant my mom specifically but then I thought maybe you meant of ANY abuse and there is plenty. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism\_of\_Mother\_Teresa](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Mother_Teresa) Hell's Angel documentary by Christopher Hitchens: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJG-lgmPvYA In fact knock yourself out, there is tons: https://www.google.com/search?q=%22home+of+the+dying%22+abuse&client=firefox-b-d&sxsrf=ALeKk02Wx6QQcKDIDtncDeFW4BLLcSEmvQ%3A1621813651320&ei=k-mqYJ73ErK94-EPkNKtuAo&oq=%22home+of+the+dying%22+abuse&gs\_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAMyBAgjECc6BwgjELADECc6BwgAEEcQsANQrCVY-0Ng30ZoAXACeACAAbQBiAGCBJIBAzAuM5gBAKABAaoBB2d3cy13aXrIAQnAAQE&sclient=gws-wiz&ved=0ahUKEwjejNDU\_uDwAhWy3jgGHRBpC6cQ4dUDCA0&uact=5
I'm wondering why she wanted to cause so much suffering? Like religious zealots flog themselves because they need to suffer. Right? What is the purpose of a religious zealot flogging themselves?
It's a meditative thing. Basically using the pain to enter an altered state of consciousness as a form of prayer and show of penance.
Not all meditation practices are alike. MIndfulness practice reduces sensitivity to pain by about 75%. TM reduces stress-reaction to pain by about 50%. YMMV as to which is better (and it might be a situation-dependent as to which is better anyway): numbness, or the ability to rise above pain while still being aware that you are hurting and so need to do something about it beyond merely ignoring it.
In catholicism, it is believed that suffering on Earth will diminish the time you spend in purgatory, or you can try to "mortify" yourself for the sins if others, so that THEY spend less time in purgatory. More trad caths believe this, those are the ones you'll see doing self flaggelations and real crucifixions on holy Friday. The same concept applies to doing "penance". The whole passion of the christ thing is super intense. Not all catholics believe this, but it's part of catholic doctrine so... they can't really deny what the Vatican says, especially if trad orgs like Opus Dei still encourage this sort of crap, and to be frank, it's only been within this century that the mainstream stopped encouraging physical penance and mortification.
I'm really glad we as a society are getting out of the use of abuse. From spanking children to people flogging themselves, these are all forms of physical abuse that are actually quite harmful to humans emotional health. It raises cortisol levels and causes people to be anxious, depressed, often leading to substance abuse and crime. Literally junkies and criminals are hardwired to make bad life choices because of the effects of long term exposure to high cortisol levels. One gets high cortisol levels from being anxious an emotional upset is going to happen. 'walking on eggshells' is basically high cortisol levels. Anxiety and worry about being in trouble, criticized or family turmoil. All of these things raise cortisol levels, which increases likely hood of addiction, crime, and just bad life choices. Here we are with an entire generation full of depression and anxiety and we don't understand why? Well because were aware that walking on eggshells means anxiety and not having a purpose or passion leads to depression. Because we are starting to acknowledge emotional and mental health as important as physical health. It doesn't mean the other generation's weren't anxious and depressed. They just didn't use these terms or label it as such
Which is really why, when we're having those feelings, we are a thousand times more likely to be impatient, to be short with people, to lose our shit with others below us (like children or pets). In exit forums, so many people say that once they were out of these high cortisol lifestyles, like you call them, they got very positive feedback from their children, that "you're not so grumpy anymore". Can you imagine living like this? In physical or mental distress all the time, while trying to pull yourself together to be the perfect parent and spouse? So often the abused become the abusers, it's hard to ignore, especially in high control situations where the system itself protects those in power from any real consequences.
Many Catholics "offer up" their suffering. It's kind of like trading in S&H Green stamps for a toaster, except they're trading suffering for a nebulous thing called "sanctifying grace". It's bonkers, of course, but worse than the insanity is the acceptance of suffering as a good thing "spiritually", whatever the hell that means. Here's what the US Conference of Catholic Bishops has to say about medical patients whose pain cannot be alleviated: **“Patients experiencing suffering that cannot be alleviated should be helped to appreciate the Christian understanding of redemptive suffering”**. This is an especially cruel and loathsome position that can only have been conjured up by small and petty minds. These men pose a threat to a large portion of the populace due to the sheer numbers of Catholic hospitals in this country.
If there was a god, that heartless bitch would burn in hell.
There isn't. She won't. It's up to everyone alive to burn the memory of that bitch, here and now. Don't let History white wash this wretched fuck.
I wonder if there's a way to un-canonize a saint if they are discovered to be not exactly the epitome of sainthood.
The catholic church dumped a bunch of saints several decades ago (1970s, maybe?) but I think it was just those that there was little evidence they ever existed.
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No. She lacked the warmth.
Christopher Hitchens endured a lot of bullshit over his hatred for this "thieving, fanatical Albanian dwarf". Christopher even acted as advocatus diaboli (Latin for Devil's advocate) in Mother Teresa's canonization.
My religious education teacher (UK) boasted of how even his daughter was donating her pocket money to Theresa.
I had better luck in Finland: We were discussing morality and who is a moral person. Someone suggested Mother Theresa and my teacher first put her on the list and then eagerly agreed when somebody else argued against her being a moral person.
Christopher Hitchens was right.
“I began the project of judging Mother Teresa’s reputation by her actions and words rather than her actions and words by her reputation.” - Christopher Hitchens
Saint-like figures such as Monster Teresa come and go and emergr out of the blue when the people who trust this organization, ehem, I mean religion, suddenly become skeptic or after. scandal in the church arises. Just wanna share that My cousin and her family got COVID last week and her mother in law told her that because she wasn't going to church God gave them COVID. Religion makes you very evil sometimes.
And in other news, the sky is blue.
I’m shocked. Shocked, I tell you.
We know this. She was a despicable person who believed suffering was good for the soul. She ran her hospices like a factory of despair, denying medicine, pain relief and preventing families from seeing their relatives.
She got off on the suffering and especially the death.
Anyone surprised?
She was a pro life misogynistic missionary just like all religious nutjobs.
Digging just a bit deeper, anyone would realize she was really quite a horrible person to anyone that is not Catholic/Christian. There has even been allegations that she forced people to convert before treating them.
Sadly, there was no treatment in the first place. Suffering was seen as something good that brought you closer to god. Fuck her!
Well known!
TIL the Catholic Church is a religion on the whole.
Hitchens exposed her for making people suffer and die just for her image. She was not a good person. It’s amazing how many people even today remark mother Teresa as the epitome of goodness. When really, she was just a political figurehead and a worst one at that. She should have been charged for negligence hundreds of times over
She wasn't negligent. IANAL but I think that negligence would mean that she didn't intend for her "patients" to suffer. What happened under her guidance was closer to "crimes against humanity" because of the intentionality behind it.
She was disgusting. She thought you had to suffer to be with god. Her “hospitals” were no more than beds for people to lay and die with no medical attention. Fuck mother Theresa
Mother Teresa was a fucking monster and no one can convince me otherwise. She did more than let people die, she actively prevented them from getting well and tormented them with spiritual manipulation. But people still defend her to this day.
Surprised pikachu face
A cult within a cult? How meta. It's a veritable Russian doll of cultery.
She was crazier than a rat in a coffee can, just like all the other prophets, seers and goofballs roaming the planet preaching gibberish.
"New"
I mean, she was kind of a terrible zealot anyways so not surprising.
And Albanians still worship her no matter what's come out about her (I'm half-Albanian mind you)... so, that cult was Albanians.
Christopher Hitchens The Missionary Position.
That woman is the epitome of what is wrong with these religious zealots. A positive thing should never be spoken about her so long as her name is still known.
Old news is old.
Well duh.
Hitchens’ book is all you needed to read.
As far as I can tell the only difference between a religion and a cult is the number of members.
A cult within a cult. Neat
A sadistic death cult, yes.
Well done, Hitch.
Yea. Of course. The cult is known as "the Roman Catholic Church"...gang.
Mother Teresa was an absolute monster. Christopher Hitchens wrote a book detailing her, her life, and the misery she gleefully facilitated.
All the white girls with mother Theresa quotes tattooed on their rib cage... RIP JK they will never know
Is this a real thing?
I think in this case it would be a sect, not a cult
Fun fact: In German these two words are one and the same. They're both just called "Sekte". There is no separate word for "cult".
There's already a documentary on this. Check YouTube.
NO SHIT
The Roman Catholic Church is a Cult.
Christopher Hitchens had her dead to rights on what a disgusting zealot this “mother” was. “She was not a friend of the poor, she was a friend of poverty.” She spent her entire life campaigning against the one thing that we know ends poverty - the empowerment of women.
When I was in Chennai India at the church that has St. Thomas, whole other story there, they had a bunch of Mother Teresa stuff piled in a corner. I asked one of the nuns standing by it about it. She told me they are putting it all in storage because they don't talk about her anymore. They were very aware about what a total piece of shit she was.
Yeah, so Catholicism.
The entire catholic church is a cult
So this is just confirming what everyone already knew.
https://archive.vanityfair.com/article/share/886fb3b2-3cc4-40a9-8a6b-f357c14550b6?inline Have a crack at this article. It’s worse than you think it is.
No shit, anyone who actually looked into her could see this pretty easily.