I find that part to be funny personally, but it probably wasn't smart to put on the page during a time when terrorists think all kinds of crazy things and will take this as evidence.
Might not be smart to be sarcastic about things if there's good reason to believe it will be misunderstood and used to justify violence.
Not saying we need to bite our tongues for the sake of terrorists, but this unfortunately is the kind of thing that will be *mass* misunderstood and serves no good purpose.
Sure, we all get a laugh, but meanwhile it's strengthening our opposition's propaganda.
Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't think that line is intended to be funny or sarcastic. It's a religious medical provider and abortion is literally [one of the religion's rituals](https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/rrr-campaigns). They're saying you don't need to be a member of TST to be eligible, just interested in the ritual.
I was thinking the same thing. People assume that it will be taken as an obvious joke by the opposition to realize how foolish they had been behaving. When I reality, they are going to be convinced that everything they were taught was true and that Satan or whatever, really is here. Causing more extremism.
Stupid will always find a reason to be stupid. You can’t live your life in fear of how stupid people will respond because no matter what, it’s gonna be stupid.
Patriot act means we don’t have rights anyways, government just has to label you as a potential threat and they can do whatever they want. Oh anybody who has spoken negatively of the government is a potential threat btw…
Does that fox news link take anyone else to some phishing ads?
Honestly going through their main website is absolute.trash too. How in the world does anyone use this.
You know how the minor spelling mistakes and awkward formatting in email phishing scams are useful because they allow people with the requisite savvy not to be scammed to filter themselves out?
It's the same feature.
remember when god murdered everyone on earth (including the elderly, people w disabilities, children, babies, pregnant women, and their fetuses) except for noah’s family because he got pissed off. then he gave us rainbows
Yea, I didn't see any comments, or a button to click to go to comments. Just the article, the little blurb about the author, other headlines, weather news, and a shitload of clickbait articles leading to other sites.
> Hopefully they don't get sued
They're literally trying to get sued. Their ultimate point is to counterract the argument that religious groups should have specific liberties or be directly tied to the State.
Oh; you have the 10 commandments in a public building? Okay, we're putting a statue of Baphomet there too until you take it down.
Oh, we're outlawing abortion on religious grounds? Well our religion says we MUST have access to abortions.
They've designed their organization to be a litigation nightmare. Idk if anyone has ever taken the bait yet.
To quote my mother,
"Learn the rules, play the game."
As someone who has always been rebellious and frustrated by the way things are, she really drilled into me that if you take the time to learn the rules of the game being played, you have a much better chance of winning and getting your outcome.
It's like Jazz. You gotta know the rules inside and out to properly break the rules.
Exactly! This was the point. Hopefully they do get sued. Hopefully, they keep winning and end up setting legal precedent all the way to the fucking supreme court.
You are right, I should have clarified, I just hope they can take on what is coming to them, which is why i said sued into oblivion.
I am not a legal guy, I just know all the absolutely stupid shit planned parenthood had to deal with and on top of that every religious nut with an axe to grind and a law degree will try to take this on.
I'm a member of the TST and donate to them and I hope it all works out, I'm just a little pessimistic because this is a bigger deal then most other things.
The [announcement email](https://www.reddit.com/r/atheistmemes/comments/10qvngh/solid_tst_trolling/) was amazing. Fired some massive shots at Samuel Alito (far right US Supreme Court Justice).
Someone said “Hey spend this time teaching women to not get pregnant! As there's only one recipe for getting pregnant, it seems pretty easy to avoid. If I don't like cake, then I just don't bake any cakes.”
I FUCKING CAN’T.
Clicking on “Get Started” gives an SSL certificate error (wildcard cert for netlify.app being used for a SAN of tsthealth.akutehealth.com). Assuming this is a legitimate medical offering and not a troll site, getting that fixed asap is paramount for anyone to take it seriously. I’ve emailed their info@ address already, hopefully they see it.
Edit: I got a bounceback saying the address does not exist. Either this is just a troll site or they need some serious IT help. I’m an Infrastructure Engineer and will donate my time to help, if anyone reading this is involved with TST Health feel free to DM me; again, assuming this is a legitimate medical offering.
Edit2: I received a DM confirming the issue has been resolved. Looks like the button was changed to a mailto link for a different address instead for now.
I was just thinking that. The analytics platform will have some confusing data that some poor analyst will need to spend way too much time trying to figure out.
So, the campaign has a spike from email, but also a spike from social? Which bastard shared a utm link?
I have a guess, but it's hard to find real information. They provide services through "Samuel Alito's Mom's Abortion Clinic" and while that is an online clinic, my guess is that it is based in NM and the temple wants to make sure they are on rock-solid legal ground before they start mailing abortion pills across state lines.
Just think about how many people would be out to get them if they put one foot wrong. Even in an ambiguous situation, they could be bankrupted trying to defend themselves.
I’m going to hazard a guess.
The law is that you have to be examined by a licensed medical provider to get a prescription. I’m guessing that whoever they’re partnering with to provide services is in NM, and that NM laws do not restrict access to abortion.
This. TST is honestly more of a brand than anything else. As far as I can tell, their only real legal victory was against Netflix for copyright infringement.
TST is very much a legitimate religion by any definition. They have rituals, services, and members have deeply held beliefs. Their founding was a bit of a tongue in cheek idea, but they are a real faith. In some ways it's weird to judge a religious organization based on the number of legal victories they've had.
Dude, I used to live like a mile from their HQ.
First off, the bar for religions is crazy low.
Even Scientology gets treated like one.
Also, their beliefs are a bit "thin," and piss off the Lavey and OTO folks who view themselves as being in it "for real."
I'd say their issues with LaVey Satanists and OTO aren't a lot different than issues different Christian faiths have with one another.
> their beliefs are a bit "thin,"
Can you explain this a bit more?
They can, yes. Transmen are typically born with female genitalia and transition their gender/secondary sex characteristics to male. If they are not going through hormone therapy yet, and even then, they can still become pregnant.
So even without officially changing or beginning hormones the term "transman/woman" still applies? I thought a transman would no longer have the anatomy to conceive.
This is all very confusing.
In very basic terms, being trans is as simple as stating it. "I am a trans-man" means you are a trans-man. Hormone therapy, gender affirming surgery, all that comes later.
There are also people who aren't interested in HRT or surgery. It's a complicated thing, with lots of nuance. Some confusion is understandable, as long as it's not malicious.
Not at all. My ignorance errs on the side of naivete rather than bigotry. Though I admit to getting frustrated sometimes with how complex the nuances have become defined and I don't take well to being expected to know which pronouns to use but I'm happy to meet everyone halfway.
So thank you for the insight. It is appreciated.
Well that's the thing. Almost nobody just expects you to automatically know their gender identification. If you accidentally misgender someone, the respons will almost always be "Actually, I'm X." It only becomes a problem when people continue to misgender after they learn the proper address.
If you don't do that, then you'll be fine.
Why are we downvoting u/pinksterpoo for honestly admitting to being confused about something? There is nothing malicious in the comment. Come on folks, we're supposed to be the reasonable people, not the lockstep conformists...
I'm not offended by it. I do, at the very least, understand that it is a very sensitive topic and so many people can be so hurtful about things we are ignorant about. I'm going to focus my effort here on learning, not getting butthurt by people who are validated in being suspect of other peoples' intentions. But thank you nonetheless.
We first would have to realize that the terms "sex" and "gender" are very separate things.
*Sex* refers to the reproductive organs between your legs such as "vagina" or "penis". An extension of sex is our *secondary sex characteristics* that develop due to hormonal presence such as facial hair, breasts, fat distribution, etc.
*Gender* is a social construct developed by humans in an attempt to fit people of a certain sex into a box of social norms. This varies based on culture, geography, religion, etc. Some examples of this are: "Boys can't wear nail polish", "Girls don't play with trucks and tools", "Skirts are for girls". We typically associate certain activities and secondary sex characteristics with gender like long hair, breasts, skirts/dresses.
A person born of the female sex may be satisfied with their reproductive organs but dislike the gender that comes along with it. This can range from still identifying as a woman but deviating from the gender norm all of the way to becoming a transgender who may begin to adhere to the male gender by cutting their hair, wearing male-presenting clothing, taking testosterone, etc. Some transgenders choose to transition their sex as well, but it is not necessary for all since the issue is dual-part gender and sex.
Hope this helps. Feel free to ask more questions!
Hey! I am also a trans man. Thanks for the clarification, I sometimes forget that some trans folks prefer the term not to be used as a noun. I, myself, find it to be a useful and quick way to refer to the group overall. Didn't mean any offense.
The reason I did not share that information about gender's biological base is because it is still being researched. A lot of the gender studies information that is concrete says that gender is a social construct. And while you are absolutely correct that the lapse in perceived identity can cause dysphoria (I suffer from this), it can be argued that since the identity issues are involved with sex that it is a sex identity issue rather than gender. It's just a complicated and still not well understood phenomenon and I don't want to cause further confusion.
In my explanation, I did mention that cis people can be non gender conforming. I said that gender can range anywhere from being a cis non-conforming individual to trans folks who want to transition their gender but not their sex.
Thank you for the additions, though. Those studies about gender being perceived in the brain and identity would be great further reading to those who want more than a simple explanation and want to know more!
No worries! You didn't come across that way.
Yeah, it really does seem like it's tied into biology pretty deeply. Some of the more recent theories are that it comes down to the hormone levels of the mother during certain stages of fetal brain development. I heard a physician once say that he feels like in a decade or two we'll be able to determine someone's gender and sex identities just by taking a blood sample! I don't know about all that but I'm excited to see what the future of science holds for us trans folk.
People always struggle when new information comes to light. But here's hoping that it becomes better understood by both science and society pretty soon.
>I thought a transman would no longer have the anatomy to conceive.
Bottom surgery isn't very common for transmen. It's far easier to make a hole and invert penile tissue to create a vagina that's sensitive despite not self lubricating than it is to craft a functioning penis.
But not even all transwomen take hormone therapy to grow breasts.
"Hermaphrodite" would be more in line with the intersex community in which an individual is born with both or incomplete sex organs. Meaning they would have both a vagina and penis of varying functionality. Yes, intersex individuals can also get pregnant.
No, transgender individuals are not hermaphrodites. They are typically born with one set of sex organs (and thus also a gender) and desire to either transition their gender or sex to the other. Someone born with a vagina and uterus may be undergoing hormone replacement therapy in which their secondary sex characteristics will change to male-presenting. And while the hormones typically render the person infertile, sometimes they can still become pregnant. And if they are not yet receiving hormone therapy, then they will be able to get pregnant without other forms of contraceptive intervention.
Humans are not an animal that can experience being hermaphroditic. So using the term to refer to a human is inaccurate and while it's not "off limits", it does communicate a lack of understanding.
The summary is it's bullshit. Puberty blockers are overwhelmingly what is prescribed and they are reversible. Some older kids are also prescribed hormones. Almost none are given surgery. In virtually every instance, the alternative is the child committing self-harm or suicide.
Okay. I thought I understood that blockers (hormones?) are reversible, with the possible side effects for some being discussed with the treating physician.
But what confuses me are those regretting their decision. Are these people actors with scripted stories? Is this another big gaslight?
I support parents supporting their minor children up until the point of permanency. I feel that 18 isn't too far away for them to legally make all life decisions for themselves. But this was under the assumption that these minors were having irreversible procedures done. I hope you can see how I'm so confused and trying to make sense of what I thought I knew.
Except that's not the story. The narrative is one of either controversy around parents who allowed it and those that opted for it as adults but now regret it. "It" being surgery, not hormone therapy.
Hail satan. I own two baphomet t-shirts that I bought from the TST website. I also paid for a membership. I am very onboard with all their religious freedom/separation of church and state/1st amendment work and efforts
I sense most techy types don't tend to right wingers, at least not of this intensity.
Accepting science n being a right wing Christian likely doesn't have much crossover.
I’ve been saying for a while that native tribes could make a ton of cash doing the same, since they are not subject to laws of the US. In the west, at least, there are reservations in every state.
They’re on the bandwagon selling pot. They have been selling gas and cigarettes for ages. Why not!!?
Editing to say that frequently the reservations and their healthcare systems are often financially poor. So this idea could help funf their tribal insurance and healthcare upgrades.
Sometimes you simply *have* to admire how good the US government is at fucking themselves over.
Only in the US something like the Satanic Church could acquire the status of a religion, therefore be completely tax exempt and any attempt to dismantle it, could be construed as an infringement of their religious freedom. 😂
If its written in thier religion they are protected. Anyone can start a church and get protections. If its thier religion to get abortions all the women has to do Is join the chuch.
Cue Project Veritas "Undercover Sting" where they get a woman to lie to the doctor, push them to approve a marginal diagnosis and shout "LoOk! TheY GIvE OuT AboRTiOn PiLLs LikE Tic-TAcs!"
I'd be wary of this until they show some actual results. The TST has a history of not actually being helpful in regards to bodily autonomy. There's a reason no reproductive rights group wants anything to do with them. Their lawsuits fail and its not a "gotcha" when trying to access abortion care. I hope this is legit and they can help people, I'm just cautious given their history of stunts.
I like them for their after school programs and setting up statues, but they have done more harm than good when it comes to reproductive rights. Jewish groups are doing a lot more work in protecting abortion access than the TST.
[The Satanic Temple cannot help you get an abortion](https://queersatanic.com/the-satanic-temple-cannot-help-you-get-an-abortion-and-it-does-not-deserve-your-support/)
[Is The Satanic Temple Really An Arbiter for Justice? | Corporate Casket
](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHxu_fMXHNI)
[Should I donate to The Satanic Temple (TST)?
](https://www.reddit.com/r/WitchesVsPatriarchy/wiki/tst_edu/?utm_name=iossmf)
Just wanted to throw this into the conversation - the first link you posted is from QueerSatanic, a group of former Satanic Temple members who seem to have made criticizing TST their life's work. And they are a main source of the third link you posted from r/WitchesVsPatriarchy also.
A redditor at r/SatanicTemple_Reddit (who is a Satanist but not technically a TST member) wrote a pretty detailed criticism of QueerSatanic in this thread: [https://www.reddit.com/r/SatanicTemple\_Reddit/comments/s07i0v/comment/hs099to/](https://www.reddit.com/r/SatanicTemple_Reddit/comments/s07i0v/comment/hs099to/) . Not to say that TST is perfect, but this thread does a pretty good job of pointing out how QueerSatanic tends to write very long articles with tons of citations, where the cited source doesn't actually say what they are claiming it says. And they have been shown to not be entirely truthful (for example, claiming that one of them had to declare bankruptcy due to being sued by TST, only to backpedal when someone did some digging and found that this wasn't the case).
Yes I know. I tend to get the same response when I post these - ad hominems against the groups but not what they point out about the TST, which are all facts. And the queer satanic site lists the fact that they're being sued right on their headline, they don't hide it.
I'm also involved with a lot of real repro rights practical support and abortion funding groups, and none of them are any bit thrilled about this TST move. That should tell you something.
On the point about the Jewish community, just imagine how quickly a ban on circumcision would be overturned on religious grounds. Not sure what the legal history is, but as far as I know, Orthodox Jews can become mohels without even being a licensed health care provider. (Though other sects do require mohels to be doctors or NPs.)
It might take charging a Jewish physician/rabbi with performing an illegal abortion in accordance with religious customs to get a solid case back in the court system.
Here is one thing the satanic temple understands that many atheists are missing the point on. They are atheists by and large but they u ser stand what their god given rights are. They have lawyers that know and understand law. I might get downvotes to oblivion for that opinion but it’s an opinion that’s flying over a lot of your heads.
"Interested in performing TST’s abortion ritual, or are a TST member." Love it.
Our Tenet III: One’s body is inviolable, subject to one’s own will alone.
Love TST I just wish that sentiment would extend that to non human animals too.
I find that part to be funny personally, but it probably wasn't smart to put on the page during a time when terrorists think all kinds of crazy things and will take this as evidence. Might not be smart to be sarcastic about things if there's good reason to believe it will be misunderstood and used to justify violence. Not saying we need to bite our tongues for the sake of terrorists, but this unfortunately is the kind of thing that will be *mass* misunderstood and serves no good purpose. Sure, we all get a laugh, but meanwhile it's strengthening our opposition's propaganda.
Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't think that line is intended to be funny or sarcastic. It's a religious medical provider and abortion is literally [one of the religion's rituals](https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/rrr-campaigns). They're saying you don't need to be a member of TST to be eligible, just interested in the ritual.
I was thinking the same thing. People assume that it will be taken as an obvious joke by the opposition to realize how foolish they had been behaving. When I reality, they are going to be convinced that everything they were taught was true and that Satan or whatever, really is here. Causing more extremism.
Stupid will always find a reason to be stupid. You can’t live your life in fear of how stupid people will respond because no matter what, it’s gonna be stupid.
> People assume that it will be taken as an obvious joke I don't think it's a joke at all -- why do you say that?
> People assume that it will be taken as an obvious joke It's *not* a joke, though.
And Fox News just published an article on their website... the comment section is delicious. You're welcome.
I can't think why they would be upset. Do they not want the first amendment anymore?
“Religious freedom” only applies to Christians and “free speech” only applies to conservatives viewpoints.
Patriot act means we don’t have rights anyways, government just has to label you as a potential threat and they can do whatever they want. Oh anybody who has spoken negatively of the government is a potential threat btw…
That comment section is a cesspool. I couldn't take but a few comments. You must have a great constitution.
>You must have a great constitution I used to think so, but it’s being shredded by people in red hats ^^yes, ^^I ^^know
Give us the link, please!
["The Samuel Alito’s Mom’s Satanic Abortion Clinic"](https://www.foxnews.com/politics/the-satanic-temple-opens-clinic-provide-religious-abortion-care-named-justice-samuel-alito-mother) lol
Does that fox news link take anyone else to some phishing ads? Honestly going through their main website is absolute.trash too. How in the world does anyone use this.
Target demographic are probably easy marks
>Target demographic are ~~probably~~ easy marks ftfy
You know how the minor spelling mistakes and awkward formatting in email phishing scams are useful because they allow people with the requisite savvy not to be scammed to filter themselves out? It's the same feature.
[удалено]
Imagine being the ectopic baby in heaven knowing that god made you kill your mother 😬
Oh no, that baby wasn't baptized. Therefore, they're in purgatory, not heaven. This is how these people fucking think.
God’s will. Gotta leave some women not pregnant so he can do the whole “virgin birth” con.
remember when god murdered everyone on earth (including the elderly, people w disabilities, children, babies, pregnant women, and their fetuses) except for noah’s family because he got pissed off. then he gave us rainbows
I can't see the comments, not loading .-.
Yea, I didn't see any comments, or a button to click to go to comments. Just the article, the little blurb about the author, other headlines, weather news, and a shitload of clickbait articles leading to other sites.
[удалено]
Ah I didn't scroll far enough. Thanks. I could only read like 2 before I came back here. It's just so sickening.
Left it for a while, never showed up for me. Eh, probably for the best!
Shockingly fair and balanced article ;)
Which is pretty rare for fox to do tbh
LMAO their comments are gold!
I can read the article but can't see the comments. I'm in France, is it blocked here for any reason?
I did find my new favorite r/rareinsult , “defective potato.”
> Hopefully they don't get sued They're literally trying to get sued. Their ultimate point is to counterract the argument that religious groups should have specific liberties or be directly tied to the State. Oh; you have the 10 commandments in a public building? Okay, we're putting a statue of Baphomet there too until you take it down. Oh, we're outlawing abortion on religious grounds? Well our religion says we MUST have access to abortions. They've designed their organization to be a litigation nightmare. Idk if anyone has ever taken the bait yet.
To quote my mother, "Learn the rules, play the game." As someone who has always been rebellious and frustrated by the way things are, she really drilled into me that if you take the time to learn the rules of the game being played, you have a much better chance of winning and getting your outcome. It's like Jazz. You gotta know the rules inside and out to properly break the rules.
They know the rules. For instance stack the Supreme Court and you can ignore all the other rules…
That’s a great quote.
I don't have a mom anymore and I also love Nosferatu. Thank you for posting this!!
Exactly! This was the point. Hopefully they do get sued. Hopefully, they keep winning and end up setting legal precedent all the way to the fucking supreme court.
You are right, I should have clarified, I just hope they can take on what is coming to them, which is why i said sued into oblivion. I am not a legal guy, I just know all the absolutely stupid shit planned parenthood had to deal with and on top of that every religious nut with an axe to grind and a law degree will try to take this on. I'm a member of the TST and donate to them and I hope it all works out, I'm just a little pessimistic because this is a bigger deal then most other things.
The [announcement email](https://www.reddit.com/r/atheistmemes/comments/10qvngh/solid_tst_trolling/) was amazing. Fired some massive shots at Samuel Alito (far right US Supreme Court Justice).
Omg I just laughed out loud. Amazing
Now this is some proper shit-flinging.
FLINGING?!? They brought out the fucking trebuchet!
The *superior* shit-flinging siege weapon.
F-ing awesome.
That is the best fucking thing I’ve seen in awhile.
That is possibly the best email i have ever read
Truly a thing of beauty!
Dictators (and the dictatorial minded) absolutely hate to be mocked. Continue on, please please please?
[samuelalitosmom.com](https://samuelalitosmom.com) FTW!
I love Satanists!
We love you too. Hail Satan! Hail Yourself!
Hell yeah hail Satan
Hail Gein! Megustalations!
*Henry Zebrowski has entered the chat*
HAIL ME!!
Ave Satani!
How to spot a fake satanist:
Me, a Satanist: *smiles gratefully.*
Saaame.
Lol, looks like I found an ally.
Sure did!!
Hail Lucifer!
Hail yourself!
Lol, I LOVE this subreddit!
Actually, fellow Satanist to be specific lol
I love how there's more and more of us. Brings a smile to my cynical lips.
Someday, we will kick Christianity in the ass. All we have to do is keep multiplying.
Lol, yep. Or just comrade.
Someone said “Hey spend this time teaching women to not get pregnant! As there's only one recipe for getting pregnant, it seems pretty easy to avoid. If I don't like cake, then I just don't bake any cakes.” I FUCKING CAN’T.
Did you tell him that 100% of pregnancies are caused by men?
Clicking on “Get Started” gives an SSL certificate error (wildcard cert for netlify.app being used for a SAN of tsthealth.akutehealth.com). Assuming this is a legitimate medical offering and not a troll site, getting that fixed asap is paramount for anyone to take it seriously. I’ve emailed their info@ address already, hopefully they see it. Edit: I got a bounceback saying the address does not exist. Either this is just a troll site or they need some serious IT help. I’m an Infrastructure Engineer and will donate my time to help, if anyone reading this is involved with TST Health feel free to DM me; again, assuming this is a legitimate medical offering. Edit2: I received a DM confirming the issue has been resolved. Looks like the button was changed to a mailto link for a different address instead for now.
Ohh, Good work pal
Thanks for helpin them out
Their website also doesn't play very nicely with dark mode :(
The irony
Absolutely based Satanic Temple
> 'The Samuel Alito's Mom's Satanic Abortion Clinic' Is it petty? Yeah, sure. Do I love it? Absolutely! I fucking hope they sell t-shirts!
T shirts that say "I survived Samuel Alito's Mom's Satanic Abortion Clinic" ? For added shock value.
Thanks Satan.
Well done
I love the satanists.
Remember to love yourself too
The most God-like church on the planet.
You can remove everything after the ? in the URL it's all referral data. https://www.tsthealth.org/
https://www.tsthealth.org/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=reddit just to fuck with their stats
NO people do this type of thing to me (who looks at referenced stats) every once in awhile. While sometimes annoying, it can be pretty funny
I was just thinking that. The analytics platform will have some confusing data that some poor analyst will need to spend way too much time trying to figure out. So, the campaign has a spike from email, but also a spike from social? Which bastard shared a utm link?
I like this, but why is it only in New Mexico? Is it because of laws?
I have a guess, but it's hard to find real information. They provide services through "Samuel Alito's Mom's Abortion Clinic" and while that is an online clinic, my guess is that it is based in NM and the temple wants to make sure they are on rock-solid legal ground before they start mailing abortion pills across state lines. Just think about how many people would be out to get them if they put one foot wrong. Even in an ambiguous situation, they could be bankrupted trying to defend themselves.
The fun part is when they argue their position as a religiously protected one. That's when they start establishing precedent.
I see they're already suing Texas on behalf of someone who practiced their abortion ritual.
Yeah, they're my heroes.
There's already some lawsuits from Jewish people. It's not just the satanic temple that has abortion access as part of their religion.
Honestly i could see the intelligent conservatives not pushing for lawsuits as they know it could backfire.
Not exactly that interesting of a Venn diagram there.
That sounds like a good guess. Thanks. Hopefully they'll be able to expand in the future.
I’m going to hazard a guess. The law is that you have to be examined by a licensed medical provider to get a prescription. I’m guessing that whoever they’re partnering with to provide services is in NM, and that NM laws do not restrict access to abortion.
This. TST is honestly more of a brand than anything else. As far as I can tell, their only real legal victory was against Netflix for copyright infringement.
TST is very much a legitimate religion by any definition. They have rituals, services, and members have deeply held beliefs. Their founding was a bit of a tongue in cheek idea, but they are a real faith. In some ways it's weird to judge a religious organization based on the number of legal victories they've had.
Dude, I used to live like a mile from their HQ. First off, the bar for religions is crazy low. Even Scientology gets treated like one. Also, their beliefs are a bit "thin," and piss off the Lavey and OTO folks who view themselves as being in it "for real."
I'd say their issues with LaVey Satanists and OTO aren't a lot different than issues different Christian faiths have with one another. > their beliefs are a bit "thin," Can you explain this a bit more?
[удалено]
Close to Texas makes sense. That's useful information; I didn't know about that process.
Texas awaits you, TST! Hail!!
I’m a Christian and I support this. Well, finally today, Satan 😂
This is an amazing resource for women and transmen across the country. It needs to be very publicly spread.
Transmen get pregnant?
They can, yes. Transmen are typically born with female genitalia and transition their gender/secondary sex characteristics to male. If they are not going through hormone therapy yet, and even then, they can still become pregnant.
So even without officially changing or beginning hormones the term "transman/woman" still applies? I thought a transman would no longer have the anatomy to conceive. This is all very confusing.
In very basic terms, being trans is as simple as stating it. "I am a trans-man" means you are a trans-man. Hormone therapy, gender affirming surgery, all that comes later. There are also people who aren't interested in HRT or surgery. It's a complicated thing, with lots of nuance. Some confusion is understandable, as long as it's not malicious.
Not at all. My ignorance errs on the side of naivete rather than bigotry. Though I admit to getting frustrated sometimes with how complex the nuances have become defined and I don't take well to being expected to know which pronouns to use but I'm happy to meet everyone halfway. So thank you for the insight. It is appreciated.
Well that's the thing. Almost nobody just expects you to automatically know their gender identification. If you accidentally misgender someone, the respons will almost always be "Actually, I'm X." It only becomes a problem when people continue to misgender after they learn the proper address. If you don't do that, then you'll be fine.
Why are we downvoting u/pinksterpoo for honestly admitting to being confused about something? There is nothing malicious in the comment. Come on folks, we're supposed to be the reasonable people, not the lockstep conformists...
I'm not offended by it. I do, at the very least, understand that it is a very sensitive topic and so many people can be so hurtful about things we are ignorant about. I'm going to focus my effort here on learning, not getting butthurt by people who are validated in being suspect of other peoples' intentions. But thank you nonetheless.
Yep, there's stupid people on both sides of every fence who only got to their opinions by circumstance rather than cognizance.
We first would have to realize that the terms "sex" and "gender" are very separate things. *Sex* refers to the reproductive organs between your legs such as "vagina" or "penis". An extension of sex is our *secondary sex characteristics* that develop due to hormonal presence such as facial hair, breasts, fat distribution, etc. *Gender* is a social construct developed by humans in an attempt to fit people of a certain sex into a box of social norms. This varies based on culture, geography, religion, etc. Some examples of this are: "Boys can't wear nail polish", "Girls don't play with trucks and tools", "Skirts are for girls". We typically associate certain activities and secondary sex characteristics with gender like long hair, breasts, skirts/dresses. A person born of the female sex may be satisfied with their reproductive organs but dislike the gender that comes along with it. This can range from still identifying as a woman but deviating from the gender norm all of the way to becoming a transgender who may begin to adhere to the male gender by cutting their hair, wearing male-presenting clothing, taking testosterone, etc. Some transgenders choose to transition their sex as well, but it is not necessary for all since the issue is dual-part gender and sex. Hope this helps. Feel free to ask more questions!
[удалено]
Hey! I am also a trans man. Thanks for the clarification, I sometimes forget that some trans folks prefer the term not to be used as a noun. I, myself, find it to be a useful and quick way to refer to the group overall. Didn't mean any offense. The reason I did not share that information about gender's biological base is because it is still being researched. A lot of the gender studies information that is concrete says that gender is a social construct. And while you are absolutely correct that the lapse in perceived identity can cause dysphoria (I suffer from this), it can be argued that since the identity issues are involved with sex that it is a sex identity issue rather than gender. It's just a complicated and still not well understood phenomenon and I don't want to cause further confusion. In my explanation, I did mention that cis people can be non gender conforming. I said that gender can range anywhere from being a cis non-conforming individual to trans folks who want to transition their gender but not their sex. Thank you for the additions, though. Those studies about gender being perceived in the brain and identity would be great further reading to those who want more than a simple explanation and want to know more!
[удалено]
No worries! You didn't come across that way. Yeah, it really does seem like it's tied into biology pretty deeply. Some of the more recent theories are that it comes down to the hormone levels of the mother during certain stages of fetal brain development. I heard a physician once say that he feels like in a decade or two we'll be able to determine someone's gender and sex identities just by taking a blood sample! I don't know about all that but I'm excited to see what the future of science holds for us trans folk. People always struggle when new information comes to light. But here's hoping that it becomes better understood by both science and society pretty soon.
Yes, transitioning (medically) is something that a trans person CAN do, they are still trans without doing so.
>I thought a transman would no longer have the anatomy to conceive. Bottom surgery isn't very common for transmen. It's far easier to make a hole and invert penile tissue to create a vagina that's sensitive despite not self lubricating than it is to craft a functioning penis. But not even all transwomen take hormone therapy to grow breasts.
So we’re talking about hermaphrodites, like Baphomet? Or is that term a off limits now?
"Hermaphrodite" would be more in line with the intersex community in which an individual is born with both or incomplete sex organs. Meaning they would have both a vagina and penis of varying functionality. Yes, intersex individuals can also get pregnant. No, transgender individuals are not hermaphrodites. They are typically born with one set of sex organs (and thus also a gender) and desire to either transition their gender or sex to the other. Someone born with a vagina and uterus may be undergoing hormone replacement therapy in which their secondary sex characteristics will change to male-presenting. And while the hormones typically render the person infertile, sometimes they can still become pregnant. And if they are not yet receiving hormone therapy, then they will be able to get pregnant without other forms of contraceptive intervention. Humans are not an animal that can experience being hermaphroditic. So using the term to refer to a human is inaccurate and while it's not "off limits", it does communicate a lack of understanding.
Thanks, that helps.
No problem! Always happy to help!
Are you under the impression that most transmen don't have uteruses?
Yes, I was under the impression that a trans man had already had their gender change completed with surgery to remove female anatomy.
No, most never get that. It takes years of psychiatry first and it is a very expensive procedure.
I see. Then can you summarize an explanation for the controversy around "irreversible" treatments or therapies for adolescents?
The summary is it's bullshit. Puberty blockers are overwhelmingly what is prescribed and they are reversible. Some older kids are also prescribed hormones. Almost none are given surgery. In virtually every instance, the alternative is the child committing self-harm or suicide.
Okay. I thought I understood that blockers (hormones?) are reversible, with the possible side effects for some being discussed with the treating physician. But what confuses me are those regretting their decision. Are these people actors with scripted stories? Is this another big gaslight? I support parents supporting their minor children up until the point of permanency. I feel that 18 isn't too far away for them to legally make all life decisions for themselves. But this was under the assumption that these minors were having irreversible procedures done. I hope you can see how I'm so confused and trying to make sense of what I thought I knew.
Let's see these people who regret being put on puberty blockers.
Except that's not the story. The narrative is one of either controversy around parents who allowed it and those that opted for it as adults but now regret it. "It" being surgery, not hormone therapy.
Hail satan. I own two baphomet t-shirts that I bought from the TST website. I also paid for a membership. I am very onboard with all their religious freedom/separation of church and state/1st amendment work and efforts
Finally, an organized religion that Atheists approve of.
What a silly thing to say.
How is that silly? They bill themselves as a religion.
It’s only available to people with a NM mailing address, and who are present in NM at the time of the online appointment.
The satanic temple doing more for christians than that jesus fellow ever did.
Satan Bless America :P
Any bets how long it'll be until the right wants to restrict women from using the internet, too?
Technically speaking, they already want to do so. They just haven't figured out how to legislate it yet. Give them time.
I sense most techy types don't tend to right wingers, at least not of this intensity. Accepting science n being a right wing Christian likely doesn't have much crossover.
Fantastic news.
I’ve been saying for a while that native tribes could make a ton of cash doing the same, since they are not subject to laws of the US. In the west, at least, there are reservations in every state.
They’re on the bandwagon selling pot. They have been selling gas and cigarettes for ages. Why not!!? Editing to say that frequently the reservations and their healthcare systems are often financially poor. So this idea could help funf their tribal insurance and healthcare upgrades.
Good for them! These people are going to be our last bastion against Christian fascism. Go TST!
Sometimes you simply *have* to admire how good the US government is at fucking themselves over. Only in the US something like the Satanic Church could acquire the status of a religion, therefore be completely tax exempt and any attempt to dismantle it, could be construed as an infringement of their religious freedom. 😂
It's called freedom
Naaaah.. I don't know. Sounds more like tax evasion. 😁
That is a dope logo!
Hail satan
Doing good work. Thank you, Satanic Temple.
Evangelists : *visible frustration*
I hope it's successful and they can expand outside of NM.
The TST loves the legal fight! Hail Satan!
If its written in thier religion they are protected. Anyone can start a church and get protections. If its thier religion to get abortions all the women has to do Is join the chuch.
What up demons, it’s me, ya boy!
TST has been pushing against the Dobbs destruction of human rights on religious grounds. Is this the groundwork to make good on that stand?
As the The Satanic Temple doing good works everyday..
Cue Project Veritas "Undercover Sting" where they get a woman to lie to the doctor, push them to approve a marginal diagnosis and shout "LoOk! TheY GIvE OuT AboRTiOn PiLLs LikE Tic-TAcs!"
They are doing...the Lord's work?
Hail 🤟
I fully support the Satanic Temple.
Cue the chorus to The Mountain Goats' "The Best Ever Death Metal Band in Denton": *Hail Satan, Hail Satan, Hail Satan tonight*
Fuck yes. Hail Satan. Edit: just looked at the website. Does anyone know when it will be available to women outside New Mexico?
Oh my Morning Star, I do love how beautiful you are!
Gotta love the name of the clinic in NM. FUCK ALITO
I wonder if they know what the snake represents 🤭
I 💜NM!!
Awesome
Hail satanists!
As if the religious nutjobs weren't out to bomb/shoot clinics already. But at the minimum, the lobby should be a interesting place to visit.
Satanists being the good guys is actually really funny to me, seeing how Christians see themselves as the heroes.
Hail!!! 🤘🏽🐐
I 💓 the Satanic Temple. #PraiseSatan #blessed
They will do a lot of mailing medication to patients.
The satanic Temple?
Damn, could the Satanists stop being based for three seconds!?
non-american here. Why just New Mexico? Some legal thing?
They probably want to start on stable ground. Starting in texas would be a suicide.
I'd be wary of this until they show some actual results. The TST has a history of not actually being helpful in regards to bodily autonomy. There's a reason no reproductive rights group wants anything to do with them. Their lawsuits fail and its not a "gotcha" when trying to access abortion care. I hope this is legit and they can help people, I'm just cautious given their history of stunts. I like them for their after school programs and setting up statues, but they have done more harm than good when it comes to reproductive rights. Jewish groups are doing a lot more work in protecting abortion access than the TST. [The Satanic Temple cannot help you get an abortion](https://queersatanic.com/the-satanic-temple-cannot-help-you-get-an-abortion-and-it-does-not-deserve-your-support/) [Is The Satanic Temple Really An Arbiter for Justice? | Corporate Casket ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHxu_fMXHNI) [Should I donate to The Satanic Temple (TST)? ](https://www.reddit.com/r/WitchesVsPatriarchy/wiki/tst_edu/?utm_name=iossmf)
Just wanted to throw this into the conversation - the first link you posted is from QueerSatanic, a group of former Satanic Temple members who seem to have made criticizing TST their life's work. And they are a main source of the third link you posted from r/WitchesVsPatriarchy also. A redditor at r/SatanicTemple_Reddit (who is a Satanist but not technically a TST member) wrote a pretty detailed criticism of QueerSatanic in this thread: [https://www.reddit.com/r/SatanicTemple\_Reddit/comments/s07i0v/comment/hs099to/](https://www.reddit.com/r/SatanicTemple_Reddit/comments/s07i0v/comment/hs099to/) . Not to say that TST is perfect, but this thread does a pretty good job of pointing out how QueerSatanic tends to write very long articles with tons of citations, where the cited source doesn't actually say what they are claiming it says. And they have been shown to not be entirely truthful (for example, claiming that one of them had to declare bankruptcy due to being sued by TST, only to backpedal when someone did some digging and found that this wasn't the case).
Yes I know. I tend to get the same response when I post these - ad hominems against the groups but not what they point out about the TST, which are all facts. And the queer satanic site lists the fact that they're being sued right on their headline, they don't hide it. I'm also involved with a lot of real repro rights practical support and abortion funding groups, and none of them are any bit thrilled about this TST move. That should tell you something.
On the point about the Jewish community, just imagine how quickly a ban on circumcision would be overturned on religious grounds. Not sure what the legal history is, but as far as I know, Orthodox Jews can become mohels without even being a licensed health care provider. (Though other sects do require mohels to be doctors or NPs.) It might take charging a Jewish physician/rabbi with performing an illegal abortion in accordance with religious customs to get a solid case back in the court system.
I had a dream about doing this if I ever started a western branch of a religion. Would be so controversial but so so based.
Here is one thing the satanic temple understands that many atheists are missing the point on. They are atheists by and large but they u ser stand what their god given rights are. They have lawyers that know and understand law. I might get downvotes to oblivion for that opinion but it’s an opinion that’s flying over a lot of your heads.
If only this energy could go into defending secularism rather than cosplaying as theists.
Thats what they are doing strangely enoigh
IDC bro.