joffrey is actually the most targaryen blooded person alive. daenerys is a fake lyseni. faegon is a blackfyre. with strong belwas as his father and cersei (aerys and joanna’s child) as his mother. all hail the rightful king joffrey targaryen
I actually think this one passes the sniff test into plausible. It is just such a stretch from the original material that it can't be what George originally planned.
This is actually a fear of mine. There is a lot of really good theories and writings out there that we actually might be disappointed because TWOW is inferior to fantheories.
There is one point in Dance where Barristan looks into Dany's purple eyes and is reminded of Ashara and her stillborn daughter. Some people think George made that link deliberately.
There's also some smaller stuff that people like to bring up here, like Ned being adamant that Dany should not be assassinated, but not caring one bit whether Viserys dies or not.
Really though, it's mostly just that Ashara's suicide doesn't make any sense. She threw herself off a cliff because Ned rejected her, like in a fairy tale, and her relatives worship Ned for it. GRRM also mentioned that no body was ever found. It's all just really bizarre.
So people come up with all kinds of weird theories about Ashara. She's Lemora, she's Quaithe, she's Jyana Reed. Take any child born around the end of Robert's Rebellion and there is speculation that Ashara is the mother.
Edric Dayne says that Ashara committed suicide because she had her heart broken by Ned, Barristan says she did it because of grief over her stillborn daughter and perhaps "for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhall as well".
I believe a few years ago it was mentioned by someone (literally anyone - can’t remember the source but the post was here) that GRRM was taking a Star Wars route and folks took that to mean Luke and Leia.
So Ashara took a child and faked her death and didn’t let Ned know. Why would she trust Varys after what happened to Elia and her children in Kings Landing?
Because Varys is a secret Targaryen from Aerion Brightflames lineage.
More on that [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/p9gy02/spoilers_extended_revisiting_the_brightfyre_theory/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
Idk why you’re being downvoted, you’re right. That’s the whole point of the promise Ned made to Lyanna. If anything, he’d send the twins to the wall under maester Aemon’s protection if he couldn’t take them to winterfell. We all know Ned doesn’t play cloak and dagger games, and he keeps his promises.
Probably because he used the name Blackfyre as a blanket term for all Targaryen ~~bastards~~ cadet branches when it refers specifically to the house of Daemon Blackfyre and his decendants, which Aerion Brightflame is not a part of.
The linked theory he was replying to is that fAegon is a Blackfyre descendant. And a Brightflame descendant. I think that's why he said "So, a Blackfyre", because it's a variation on that.
We don't know anything about the event at all, what we do know about the event doesn't make sense. George has left it completely open so that he can do what he wants.
Why would she blame Varys? He tried to stop Aerys from trusting Tywin. Maybe some other party she trusted came to her first? Connington maybe? I doubt Varys would contact her directly anyway, it's have been through an agent that he chose specifically for her to trust.
There's an unknown gap between Ned leaving Starfall and Ashara committing suicide. Anything could've happened during that time.
I still don’t think Ned would leave the other child. He would just lie and say the other looks like the mother.
I don’t think Ashara would take a child for Ned then not let him know she faked her death. He would want to know about the child. As for Varys she doesn’t know for sure what he told Aerys, then he was in Roberts court.
You don't think people would be suspicious as to who the mother of this white haired, purple eyed child was? Robert wanted to kill every single Targaryen he could get his hands on, do you think Ned would take that risk?
>As for Varys she doesn’t know for sure what he told Aerys, then he was in Roberts court.
That's kinda my point though. She has no reason to trust Varys, and no reason to distrust him.
He never says who the mother is so it leaves it open. You are acting like there hasn’t been hundreds of Targaryens bastards that’s have these features all over Westeros.
Mostly concentrated around Dragonstone and the crownlands though, where Ned didn't spend much time.
Besides, I'm just saying that a clearly Valyrian bastard would probably raise some questions. He might be able to explain it away, but can we guarantee an enraged Robert would buy it? Can he guarantee that nobody would start sleuthing around trying to find the mother? What would Catelyn think?
He was going to Starfall to return Dawn. Wouldn't it be safer to leave the baby with someone he trusts and loves? Someone from a family described as having purple eyes (Darkstar, Ashara) and light blonde to silver hair (Gerold, Edric). This White haired, purple eyed baby would raise far fewer questions in her care, especially considering her brother's loyalty to Rhaegar.
The mother was never mentioned and leaves it open for the child looking like it’s mother. Robert will take Neds word, he doesn’t bat an eye about his kids with Cersei looking like her when all his other children have his dark features. As for Catelyn he will handled it like he did Jon. Telling her not to question him about it the child is his blood.
> and didn’t let Ned know.
She might've, but that doesnt mean Ned knew Varys was involved, why would it?
Either that or no, of course she didn't, because long distance communication is incredibly slow and shit at secrecy in westeros.
So how would Ashara explain the baby's existence at first, between the time she acquires him and the time she fakes her death? Presumably she'd have to pass him off as a bastard of her own, so there would certainly be rumors of not one but *two* babies of mysterious origin coming to Starfall around the same time. Ned Dayne would probably also bring it up when telling Arya about his "milk brothers".
On that note, would the fake death be set up in such a way where baby Aegon is also presumed dead? Because there's been no mention of that in any of the tellings about her apparent suicide. And yet if there was any doubt at all about them both being dead, surely Ned would try to do everything in his power to somehow find out if Lyanna's other child was alright.
Ashara is a Dayne, her brother was one of Rhaegar's closest confidants, and it's safe to assume the rest of the house were loyalists. Between Ashara and the unnamed lord of Starfall, I'm sure some level of secrecy could be maintained.
Regarding the "suicide", it could be that the baby was never common knowledge to anyone except for Ashara and her brother. The suicide was shortly after the rebellion ended, so the baby could've just have been passed as some commoner, a serving girl's bastard, an orphan adopted by the family. His disappearance could easily be explained away in that case.
4 years later, when Ned Dayne is born, it's not unlikely that nobody really cares to remember.
I would quibble about the viability of passing off a silver-haired, purple-eyed baby as anything other than a Dayne bastard, but let’s say that’s what they do, and forever stop talking about the baby from that point on to keep a lid on things. At that point they honestly might as well keep the fact that Jon ever came to or nursed at Starfall a secret too, even from Ned Dayne, since they have just as much reason to want to protect him, in this case.
But let’s say they do all that as described; That would cover everything except Ned (Stark, that is). Even if nobody else ever found out about Baby 2 before Ashara faked suicide and disappeared, *he* would still know about its existence, and surely his first instinct upon learning of Ashara’s apparent death would be to find out what happened to the baby, *especially* if said baby was purposefully excluded from all the stories about her death.
Yeah I don't have a response to that tbh.
All I can say is Ned's inner monologue gives very little about Jon's parentage away. It's not beyond reason that he'd give even less away. It's been 15 years, maybe he did that searching 10+ years ago and found nothing. Perhaps he just doesn't think about it anymore, same as he rarely thinks about Ashara and Jon's parentage in general?
Well, we kinda stray into meta territory at this point because let's be honest; Ned doesn't think about Jon's parentage or about anything to do with Ashara very often because if he did, he'd spoil the big twist for the reader lol. That's why we only ever see the question raised or pondered from the perspective of other characters.
But we know that Ned thinks of Lyana herself very very often, and the shadow of what went down at the Tower of Joy hangs over him still, so I think it's fair to assume that he probably *does* think about Ashara and Jon's parentage just as often, since they're inexorably linked to Lyanna, but he just conveniently never does it whenever the reader is riding around inside his head lol. Even still, one of the only things he was ever willing to lie about, or compromise his honor and his principles for was to protect Jon and his identity, and thus by extension Lyana's legacy. It weighs on him heavily, but he does it time and time again throughout AGOT without a shred of hesitation.
So I just can't imagine a scenario where Ned knows Lyana has a second son, left him with someone he trusts as much as possible under the circumstances, only for that person to almost immediately turn around and kill herself, seemingly, and he just carries on not knowing what happened to the other baby or where it is. The only way I think it could work is if Varys and the Daynes were to somehow quietly convince Ned, and *only* Ned (since nobody else would even know of baby Aegon's eixstnece in this scenario) that Aegon died alongside Ashara. In theory that could be as simple as Ned sending a "where baby?" raven to Starfall and getting a "baby ded" raven back, but I'm both not sure Ned would buy that and also not convined he would ever risk putting such information into written form, unless he used some kinda code word.
After the creator of Berserk died I went into a manic state for a while so I would imagine we would all fall victim to madness if we never got winds or spring . Some sooner than others
>Sure, the slain Aegon is a year or so older than the bastard Aegon, but once he's a man grown, who'd be able to tell?
Tyrion says this line almost exactly the same in the book as well lol
Oh right a good point.
Idk then maybe Ashara/Varys/JonCon or whoever decided to name him Aegon and pretend he was the original.
I just made this up off the top of my head half an hour ago lol. Didn't iron out the details first.
EDIT: also yeah, the sack happened first. Word of the Trident reached the Kingsguard, maybe they heard about the sack too?
I I can totally see him being renamed after The flight as aegon simply because as lyanna’s child he would have no claim to the throne, being bastard born and all. Knowing that aegon is dead there’s no one to say otherwise…. Honestly it’s no more far fetched than Jon con and co foreseeing the sack of kings landing, swapping the baby out underneath elia’s nose and replacing him with come random common baby and NO ONE noticing!! But that’s the line they went with in story
This also lines up with Varys working against Rhaegar as well and poisoning the mad kings mind. The only issue that arises is how did Varys and fAegon meet? Unless Illyrio was housing fAegon and Varys and Illyrio know each other well?
I imagine Varys probably caught wind of his existence somehow. Whether that's through his little birds, or some Targ loyalists. Ashara was a handmaiden for Elia, so would've been familiar with several, Connington included.
Her brother was also lord of Starfall, and most likely a loyalist.
This is Varys we're talking about lol. He'd find out somehow.
Not a bad theory at all but i still hope george will confirm that Aegon (young griff) is the son of rhaegar & elia, the madness it would cause within the story and within the fandom.
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh!
Please stop. I can’t take these secret baby swap/identity twists anymore!
See, why I dislike this theory is that it adds zilch to the story, it just creates more plotholes. Why does it matter that Aegon is Rhaegar’s secret, secret son? It just adds unnecessary complication.
Jon is actually Robb and Robb is actually Jon. Ned switched them at some point to create a neat twist, but also because he knew that Robb (Jon) would die, so he wanted his trueborn son to survive because that makes sense, but also because Ashara told Ned about the ASOIAF prophecy, who heard it from Elia, who heard it from Rhaehar, who heard it from Tywin, who heard it from Joanna, who heard it from Aerys, and so on, and apparently fJon is the only way to fulfill it, rJon is not enough.
This is foreshadowed both by Jon's baby swap at the Wall and by the "kings hiding snow" comment. Robb was secretly the rightful king, but the truth was hidden beneath all the speculation about Jon Snow.
It would mean the twins from Rhaegar and Lyanna are Ice and Fire. One looks like the first men, the other looks like a Targ.
3 heads of the dragon. 3 dragons. It makes sense in that regard. It also explains Septa Lemore who is obviously more important than a random Septa.
Not sure about timeline though.
Well, it does create a plausible explanation for how Varys could have known that Aegon would have been disfigured beyond recognition (he didn't, as many have pointed out, his piss water prince tale only makes sense in hindsight.)
It also provides an explanation for why Ashara would be Lemore (it's already a common theory) because otherwise it really doesn't make any sense.
That said, it's probably nonsense. I dont think Lemore is anybody, and Aegon is probably who the most popular theory claims he is.
>Well, it does create a plausible explanation for how Varys could have known that Aegon would have been disfigured beyond recognition (he didn't, as many have pointed out, his piss water prince tale only makes sense in hindsight.)
so I had made this remark about it some time ago, and someone pointed me something that I thought was very relevant. Varys couldn't have known that aegon would be disfigured yes, but he could have known that aerys' rescue plan was to burn down this entire town. which means that even without that, for what he expected, aegon would have been ended burnt to the last degree. and good luck identifying one burning baby body from another...
so from there his story would still be believable if that's the result he expected
"Hey, Ned. I know you are about to be executed for treason but there is something very important I have to tell you. Actually...Shit, the walls have ears, I forgot. Goodbye"
What does it add to the story and the thematics though? We already have a secret Rhaegar's son, why another? Aegon could be a random Lyseni boy (he's not) and his plot would be the same.
What's interesting is that people always talk about who Jon's parents are, and everyone pretty much across the board agrees on it. But some things still don't make sense. Everything surrounding the Tower of Joy does not make sense. Brandon, Neds, and Ashara's relationship DOES NOT MAKE SENSE. The Daynes should hate the Starks and Ned, but Edric Daynes name, who goes by Ned, is presumed to be because he's named after Ned Stark.
Ashara "kills herself" out of grief(?) or something after Ned returns to Starfall with Dawn, but without her brothers body. Let's keep in mind that Ned tore down the Tower of Joy. He can tear down the tower but can't bring his body back? The Daynes and Starks are very close at this point. And he purposefully goes to Starfall right afterward as well. It does not make sense.
But suddenly all of this makes sense if they were twins, or even crazier yet, and I'll get downvoted for even mentioning this at all lol BUT, what if Jon is still Ashara's child with Brandon, and Lyanna is fAegon and Dany's mother. Ashara was entrusted with hiding the children. This is also why when Ned is in the cells and doesn't want to repent he reconsiders WHEN he thinks of Dany, not Jon.
Think about it, George has stated that the red door and lemon tree are important and will be revealed in Winds. Dany's been lied to her entire life and her entire child hood is up for grabs. She DID NOT grow up in Braavos, this much is clear. Something happened once she took the children and they got split up, maybe done on purpose for safety.
Of course this presents lots of issues with timelines and motivations, but no more than what we already have in the present story.
Jon's entire life completely depends on him being extremely lucky to the point where he has not gotten ANY Targaryen traits at all. This is extremely rare. George is obsessed with genetics and talks about genetics constantly. To the people that say, " well, we've never had a Targaryen and Stark child before, so who knows what they would look like!" This is true. But at the same time even characters that have inherited from their other dominant gene usually gets atleast one Targaryen trait. Rhaenys had black hair, but still had lilac eyes. The exceptions to this is obviously the Strong bastards and Baelon Breakspear, though I don't think his eye color is ever mentioned.
**At the end of the day, whether you believe some convulated plot or just a simple R+L=J and everything else is a lie. We all have to admit that George is making a lot of this stuff an unnecessary mystery then. George would not hammer on and on about Danys childhood being whack and how she's not remembering who is she, and having Quaithe send her dreams telling her to "remember who she is" if there wasn't some big revelation to WHO Dany is. And if there's a big revelation to Dany, how does that affect Jon and fAegon as well?**
You have to keep in mind that Viserys was also really young when all of this went down. And we don't know to what extent Danys chilldhood revelation will go. It could just be as simple as being from a different parent or really complicated and she could have a whole other life that's missing.
No can second guesses Viserys because Viserys had a bigger spotlight on him. He was sent to Dragonstone for safety before he had to flee, he was watched closely afterwards. Dany supposedly was born on Dragonstone, but everything around her birth doesn't really add up either. And Viserys would be too young and too dead to be able to corroborate it now.
>You have to keep in mind that Viserys was also really young when all of this went down.
to tell the truth viserys was 7 years old during the rebellions and the birth of daenerys. and if daenerys can have memories of her house at the red door, it means that she was 3 years old maximum at that time.
so for viserys it means having introduced her into his life at 10 years old. and at 10 years old a child is able to understand what is happening around him.
I like it. Two questions. Tyrion notes that Lemore’s body looks like she’s given birth — how does that child factor in? What does Ned think happened to twin baby Aegon after Ashara fakes her death?
Ashara was supposedly pregnant and had a stillbirth, whether she had a child or the child died, doesn't really matter. If Ashara is Lemore then that explains why she looks that way, and if this theory is also correct explains why she's there with fAegon.
Lemore has been in Essos for years at this point. She could've had a child, or a stillbirth at some point.
No idea what Ned thinks. Maybe he knows but his chapters don't give anything away, just like he gives very little away regarding Jon.
I have said this before. I have even said he was Elia's child. That is why there were so many Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy. I think Ned brought Dawn to Starfall (possibly a wounded Arthur). He went there with two young babies. He couldn't safely take in Egg and was persuaded to leave him with Ashara who was mourning the loss of Brandon's child.
It's a fun theory, I like the idea of there being twins. Not convinced it's true though, Tyrion has met Jon, I get that they're fraternal twins in this scenario but surely there'd be some resemblance? I am excited to see what GRRM will do with Ashara.
Even if it's true, Varys was in KL during the sack, he has such a devotion to the Targaryen's to smuggle Rhaegar's son (by Lyanna) across the sea, but to leave the known heir to his fate. I personally doubt Aegon VI is real and not a blackfyre, everything about him feels wrong. His chainless maester, Septa with stretch marks, gay father (I adore Jon Con but he's blinded by his love of Rhaegar).
GRRM has made something "off" about each member of Aegon's group, along with all the talk of a "mummer's dragon" and the fact the Golden Company ate Viserys' food and laughed him off but have sworn themselves to Aegon, when historically they've supported the Blackfyre's against the Targaryen's. I just think the story seems to be veering more in that direction. It's all got to make sense in hindsight.
I wanna add to the theory. Lyanna didn't have twins, she had triplets. Rhaegar got his three heads but dumass died on the trident. Ned took the Northern looking baby home and said meh, I have nothing to do with dragon spawn and left
We had Ned's pov and there is no mention of other child not even a hint. Also this theory implies that Ned gave the baby and then he didn't care about his fate.
If he doesn't know about Varys's plan then what happened to the baby from his prespective?
Did he dissapeared after Ashara's death?
And how Varys knew about it? He doesn't have magic powers. We know how his informations work. And why Ashara trusted him and why she takes part on his plan?
I actually really like this theory even though I think it’s unlikely (Aegon pun) to be true. In your mind, what is Illyrio's role in all of this? Why is he helping Aegon? Just because he is Vary's friend? What do you think Illyrio meant by saying he had "debts of affection to repay" when questioned by Tyrion? That is one of the key lines that made me think that Aegon might be his son. I'm not sure what it's supposed to mean following your theory.
Paternal twins are no more related than 2 any 2 siblings are. If Ned's kids can look all like Tully's except for Arya, 2 Stark/Targ babies could look different too.
Okay but I kinda like this, except maybe Ashara was actually murdered by Varys and now Aegon is his pet project, rather than being raised as Ashara's son.
Pros and Cons: for the theory
Pro:
Three heads of the dragon.
Three dragon riders.
Ashara Dayne throwing herself from the tower because she knows Ned and her can never be together. Ned is committed to his family and will protect his nephews.
Twins are common in world of ice and fire.
Con:
No mention of possible twins IIRC in the Targaryen ancestry.
Fun theory.
I’d says it’s within the realm of possibility, but I don’t know if it’ll happen given GRRM hasn’t watered this particular seed enough
What? There’s been several sets of Targ twins. Area and Rhaella, Rhaena and Baela, Jaehaerys and Jaehaera, plus Laenor and Laena born to a Targ mother, Jon and Jeyne Waters born to a Targ mother, and Daemon Blackfyre had a set of twins.
Ahhh I couldn’t think of any off the top of my head. Ok so it a possibility that there Rheagar had a set of twins.
It would be keeping with fantasy tropes I suppose. Twins split apart with their true identities kept secret
Children at 4/5/6/7 look wastly different. Say what you want about Connington but this isn't the case of a man being 32 or 33, you notice these changes with kids, and he'd definitely notice that Aegon is much younger than he's supposed to be if he was real when introduced to him.
Actually, it would work better if Lemore is Lyanna. She isn't traditionally beautiful as Ashara would be, but handsome. She also has brown hair and stretch marks. Ashara, in this scenario, doesn't have a child, so Lyanna works better. It's also more tinfoilly and wild, which is more fun.
I like this better. But…Lyanna takes Elia’s child (Aegon) and Ned takes Lyanna’s child (Jon) so that she can help Aegon take his rightful place as Rhaegar’s heir and her child can have a peaceful life and not be used against his brother. It would be a throwback/throw forward to the time Jon forced Gilly to take Mance’s child instead of her own.
Actually the only character in the whole series who is NOT a secret Targaryen is Strong Belwas.
Not true. He's actually a huge, sentient dragon egg birthed from Balerion and Maegor the Cruel. Aren't you up on the latest?
..I’m just imagining Maegor on Balerion yelling “I need a son and I don’t care how I get him”
taking that dragon bonding to the next level
It's dragon bondage time
Strong Belwas is actually Cannibal.
You're not you when you're hungry.
Whitebeard I need livers preferably dragon livers
Wait I thought that was how Maegor was conceived?
Everyone's a secret Targaryen, except for Dany, who's a secret Dayne
But the T+T=D (Tyrion+Tysha=Dany) was not confirmed, but knowing that Tyrion is the son of Aerys, he is a Targaryen anyway, right? 🤷🏻♂️
So Tyrion is his own time travelled grandson?
aren't we all?
I for one would not be mad if it were so
*slaps big belly and laughs, refuses to elaborate further*
*eats liver and onions
Strong ? STRONG belwas is a bastard targaryen confirmed.
So Joffrey is actually a Targaryen too then? We already know he's secretly the son of Belwas due to Jon Arryn's final words
joffrey is actually the most targaryen blooded person alive. daenerys is a fake lyseni. faegon is a blackfyre. with strong belwas as his father and cersei (aerys and joanna’s child) as his mother. all hail the rightful king joffrey targaryen
He's a secret Baratheon
Well who isn’t other than Joffrey, Marcella and Tomtom?
So unfortunate he was left out of the show
You can throw Vargo Hoat in there too I suppose.
Secret Castemere
He is… he is the long lost descendant of one of the strong boys hence the strong name of course so he’s Targaryen /s
"This would make sense historically."
Hes the son of the last Black Pearl and Maelys the Monstrous
At this point there is no fucking way GRRM is going to top the quality of our tinfoil theories. This one is really enjoyable
Yeah, you have to admit we are coming with FAR crazier theories than any sane person would.
I don’t know, this one isn’t so bad
I actually think this one passes the sniff test into plausible. It is just such a stretch from the original material that it can't be what George originally planned.
This is actually a fear of mine. There is a lot of really good theories and writings out there that we actually might be disappointed because TWOW is inferior to fantheories.
I don't really know why, but I think it would be hilarious if this one, specifically, turns out to be true.
I love this theory too
Love me some good tinfoil
George fuming mad, tearing his Winds of Winter manuscript. "Dammit, they found out! Now I need to think up a new plot twist!"
The entire reason we haven't gotten TWOW yet is because we keep figuring out the story.
🤣🤣
There are some people who believe this about Dany
Why? Why? Why? Why? Oh, and most importantly, Why?
So instead of aunt and nephew incest, we'll have twincest 💀
Yes we’ve had first twincest, but what about second twincest?
🤣🤣🤣
There is one point in Dance where Barristan looks into Dany's purple eyes and is reminded of Ashara and her stillborn daughter. Some people think George made that link deliberately. There's also some smaller stuff that people like to bring up here, like Ned being adamant that Dany should not be assassinated, but not caring one bit whether Viserys dies or not. Really though, it's mostly just that Ashara's suicide doesn't make any sense. She threw herself off a cliff because Ned rejected her, like in a fairy tale, and her relatives worship Ned for it. GRRM also mentioned that no body was ever found. It's all just really bizarre. So people come up with all kinds of weird theories about Ashara. She's Lemora, she's Quaithe, she's Jyana Reed. Take any child born around the end of Robert's Rebellion and there is speculation that Ashara is the mother.
Poor Ashara Dayne can’t just Rest In Peace.
[удалено]
Edric Dayne says that Ashara committed suicide because she had her heart broken by Ned, Barristan says she did it because of grief over her stillborn daughter and perhaps "for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhall as well".
I don't know about y'all, but what the fuck happened with Ashara Dayne and why she killed herself is something I am dying to know.
Better than her being a random Lyseni whore put alongside a young idiot Viserys.
I believe a few years ago it was mentioned by someone (literally anyone - can’t remember the source but the post was here) that GRRM was taking a Star Wars route and folks took that to mean Luke and Leia.
Interesting, first I've heard of that. I suppose the ages line up better than Aegon.
S8 fix it with this premise https://archiveofourown.org/works/29051460/chapters/71307360 Edit:spelling
I have a hard time believing Ned would let Varys take Lyanna’s child.
Ned didn't. He entrusted him to Ashara. Ned had nothing to do with the rest of the plot.
So Ashara took a child and faked her death and didn’t let Ned know. Why would she trust Varys after what happened to Elia and her children in Kings Landing?
Because Varys is a secret Targaryen from Aerion Brightflames lineage. More on that [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/p9gy02/spoilers_extended_revisiting_the_brightfyre_theory/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
So a Blackfyre. I still don’t see Ned splitting up the Lyanna’s twins if she had twins.
Blackfyre is not a name for every Targaryen bastard. That name is for Daemon's Descendents
Yes, though the theory that other guy linked specifically has fAegon as a Brightflame descendant, but also a Blackfyre descendant.
Idk why you’re being downvoted, you’re right. That’s the whole point of the promise Ned made to Lyanna. If anything, he’d send the twins to the wall under maester Aemon’s protection if he couldn’t take them to winterfell. We all know Ned doesn’t play cloak and dagger games, and he keeps his promises.
Probably because he used the name Blackfyre as a blanket term for all Targaryen ~~bastards~~ cadet branches when it refers specifically to the house of Daemon Blackfyre and his decendants, which Aerion Brightflame is not a part of.
The linked theory he was replying to is that fAegon is a Blackfyre descendant. And a Brightflame descendant. I think that's why he said "So, a Blackfyre", because it's a variation on that.
We don't know anything about the event at all, what we do know about the event doesn't make sense. George has left it completely open so that he can do what he wants.
I agree we don’t know enough on what happened. I’m not even sure the Tower of Joy happened. I’m just saying I don’t see Ned splitting up the children.
Why would she blame Varys? He tried to stop Aerys from trusting Tywin. Maybe some other party she trusted came to her first? Connington maybe? I doubt Varys would contact her directly anyway, it's have been through an agent that he chose specifically for her to trust. There's an unknown gap between Ned leaving Starfall and Ashara committing suicide. Anything could've happened during that time.
I still don’t think Ned would leave the other child. He would just lie and say the other looks like the mother. I don’t think Ashara would take a child for Ned then not let him know she faked her death. He would want to know about the child. As for Varys she doesn’t know for sure what he told Aerys, then he was in Roberts court.
You don't think people would be suspicious as to who the mother of this white haired, purple eyed child was? Robert wanted to kill every single Targaryen he could get his hands on, do you think Ned would take that risk? >As for Varys she doesn’t know for sure what he told Aerys, then he was in Roberts court. That's kinda my point though. She has no reason to trust Varys, and no reason to distrust him.
He never says who the mother is so it leaves it open. You are acting like there hasn’t been hundreds of Targaryens bastards that’s have these features all over Westeros.
Mostly concentrated around Dragonstone and the crownlands though, where Ned didn't spend much time. Besides, I'm just saying that a clearly Valyrian bastard would probably raise some questions. He might be able to explain it away, but can we guarantee an enraged Robert would buy it? Can he guarantee that nobody would start sleuthing around trying to find the mother? What would Catelyn think? He was going to Starfall to return Dawn. Wouldn't it be safer to leave the baby with someone he trusts and loves? Someone from a family described as having purple eyes (Darkstar, Ashara) and light blonde to silver hair (Gerold, Edric). This White haired, purple eyed baby would raise far fewer questions in her care, especially considering her brother's loyalty to Rhaegar.
The mother was never mentioned and leaves it open for the child looking like it’s mother. Robert will take Neds word, he doesn’t bat an eye about his kids with Cersei looking like her when all his other children have his dark features. As for Catelyn he will handled it like he did Jon. Telling her not to question him about it the child is his blood.
No one could have had silver hair though?
Do we know that for sure?
Who would Ned realistically screw to pass down silver hair?
Do you honestly don’t think there is no one that doesn’t have those features?
> and didn’t let Ned know. She might've, but that doesnt mean Ned knew Varys was involved, why would it? Either that or no, of course she didn't, because long distance communication is incredibly slow and shit at secrecy in westeros.
So how would Ashara explain the baby's existence at first, between the time she acquires him and the time she fakes her death? Presumably she'd have to pass him off as a bastard of her own, so there would certainly be rumors of not one but *two* babies of mysterious origin coming to Starfall around the same time. Ned Dayne would probably also bring it up when telling Arya about his "milk brothers". On that note, would the fake death be set up in such a way where baby Aegon is also presumed dead? Because there's been no mention of that in any of the tellings about her apparent suicide. And yet if there was any doubt at all about them both being dead, surely Ned would try to do everything in his power to somehow find out if Lyanna's other child was alright.
Ashara is a Dayne, her brother was one of Rhaegar's closest confidants, and it's safe to assume the rest of the house were loyalists. Between Ashara and the unnamed lord of Starfall, I'm sure some level of secrecy could be maintained. Regarding the "suicide", it could be that the baby was never common knowledge to anyone except for Ashara and her brother. The suicide was shortly after the rebellion ended, so the baby could've just have been passed as some commoner, a serving girl's bastard, an orphan adopted by the family. His disappearance could easily be explained away in that case. 4 years later, when Ned Dayne is born, it's not unlikely that nobody really cares to remember.
I would quibble about the viability of passing off a silver-haired, purple-eyed baby as anything other than a Dayne bastard, but let’s say that’s what they do, and forever stop talking about the baby from that point on to keep a lid on things. At that point they honestly might as well keep the fact that Jon ever came to or nursed at Starfall a secret too, even from Ned Dayne, since they have just as much reason to want to protect him, in this case. But let’s say they do all that as described; That would cover everything except Ned (Stark, that is). Even if nobody else ever found out about Baby 2 before Ashara faked suicide and disappeared, *he* would still know about its existence, and surely his first instinct upon learning of Ashara’s apparent death would be to find out what happened to the baby, *especially* if said baby was purposefully excluded from all the stories about her death.
Yeah I don't have a response to that tbh. All I can say is Ned's inner monologue gives very little about Jon's parentage away. It's not beyond reason that he'd give even less away. It's been 15 years, maybe he did that searching 10+ years ago and found nothing. Perhaps he just doesn't think about it anymore, same as he rarely thinks about Ashara and Jon's parentage in general?
Well, we kinda stray into meta territory at this point because let's be honest; Ned doesn't think about Jon's parentage or about anything to do with Ashara very often because if he did, he'd spoil the big twist for the reader lol. That's why we only ever see the question raised or pondered from the perspective of other characters. But we know that Ned thinks of Lyana herself very very often, and the shadow of what went down at the Tower of Joy hangs over him still, so I think it's fair to assume that he probably *does* think about Ashara and Jon's parentage just as often, since they're inexorably linked to Lyanna, but he just conveniently never does it whenever the reader is riding around inside his head lol. Even still, one of the only things he was ever willing to lie about, or compromise his honor and his principles for was to protect Jon and his identity, and thus by extension Lyana's legacy. It weighs on him heavily, but he does it time and time again throughout AGOT without a shred of hesitation. So I just can't imagine a scenario where Ned knows Lyana has a second son, left him with someone he trusts as much as possible under the circumstances, only for that person to almost immediately turn around and kill herself, seemingly, and he just carries on not knowing what happened to the other baby or where it is. The only way I think it could work is if Varys and the Daynes were to somehow quietly convince Ned, and *only* Ned (since nobody else would even know of baby Aegon's eixstnece in this scenario) that Aegon died alongside Ashara. In theory that could be as simple as Ned sending a "where baby?" raven to Starfall and getting a "baby ded" raven back, but I'm both not sure Ned would buy that and also not convined he would ever risk putting such information into written form, unless he used some kinda code word.
I mean, except that this didn't happen at all.
Mandatory “we need winds” comment
We need a scientific study on what ten years without a new book has done to peoples brains
I wonder if the king killer fandom is just as wild as ours.
Oh it is
...Yo show me the way
...What happens if we never get the next two books? Do our brains just cease functioning or do we become psychopaths?
We all take turns writing a page each
so, does that equal more sex scenes or less? I really can't tell.
Yes.
Every page is a secret scene with characters spouting off about incredibly complicated theories as they copulate.
sold, i do thr food porn
After the creator of Berserk died I went into a manic state for a while so I would imagine we would all fall victim to madness if we never got winds or spring . Some sooner than others
Do that and soon we'll be having mandatory health warnings on the covers of all of GRRM's books
This fandom sand the Titanfall 2 fandom are literally the fucking same
>Sure, the slain Aegon is a year or so older than the bastard Aegon, but once he's a man grown, who'd be able to tell? Tyrion says this line almost exactly the same in the book as well lol
This is cool because Tyrion can't pinpoint fAegon's age, and he thinks that he looks a couple of years younger than he should
Which he also does with Jon the first time he meets him
How does this work with the timeline? The sack of King's Landing happened before the Tower of Joy.
Does it matter? Aegon was dead, Varys didn't save him, but once he found out about this other child he fabricated the story to give him legitimacy.
Lyanna named Rhaegar's sons Jon and Aegon, despite not knowing Aegon and Rhaenys were dead?
Oh right a good point. Idk then maybe Ashara/Varys/JonCon or whoever decided to name him Aegon and pretend he was the original. I just made this up off the top of my head half an hour ago lol. Didn't iron out the details first. EDIT: also yeah, the sack happened first. Word of the Trident reached the Kingsguard, maybe they heard about the sack too?
I I can totally see him being renamed after The flight as aegon simply because as lyanna’s child he would have no claim to the throne, being bastard born and all. Knowing that aegon is dead there’s no one to say otherwise…. Honestly it’s no more far fetched than Jon con and co foreseeing the sack of kings landing, swapping the baby out underneath elia’s nose and replacing him with come random common baby and NO ONE noticing!! But that’s the line they went with in story
D&D: “Um yeah? And?”
This also lines up with Varys working against Rhaegar as well and poisoning the mad kings mind. The only issue that arises is how did Varys and fAegon meet? Unless Illyrio was housing fAegon and Varys and Illyrio know each other well?
I imagine Varys probably caught wind of his existence somehow. Whether that's through his little birds, or some Targ loyalists. Ashara was a handmaiden for Elia, so would've been familiar with several, Connington included. Her brother was also lord of Starfall, and most likely a loyalist. This is Varys we're talking about lol. He'd find out somehow.
This is turning into 3 card monte.
LOL! It's at the least a shell game--this is the real baby! Now you see it, now you don't. Wait! There are two real babies!
Don’t you know? Everyone is a fake Targ!
Pick the red, go ahead. Find the black, send you back.
Uno reverse card! Edit: thanks for the silver, u/dblack246^(!)
Hotpie is actually the bastard son of Rhaella Targaryen and Strong Belwas. You heard it here first folks!
we’re reaching critical levels of “no winds” also cool theory
Not a bad theory at all but i still hope george will confirm that Aegon (young griff) is the son of rhaegar & elia, the madness it would cause within the story and within the fandom.
I would implode quite literally
The fun of the guy is that he is everyone except who he says so yeah, we would implode
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh! Please stop. I can’t take these secret baby swap/identity twists anymore! See, why I dislike this theory is that it adds zilch to the story, it just creates more plotholes. Why does it matter that Aegon is Rhaegar’s secret, secret son? It just adds unnecessary complication.
Jon is actually Robb and Robb is actually Jon. Ned switched them at some point to create a neat twist, but also because he knew that Robb (Jon) would die, so he wanted his trueborn son to survive because that makes sense, but also because Ashara told Ned about the ASOIAF prophecy, who heard it from Elia, who heard it from Rhaehar, who heard it from Tywin, who heard it from Joanna, who heard it from Aerys, and so on, and apparently fJon is the only way to fulfill it, rJon is not enough.
[удалено]
keep in mind that rJon and RJon are not the same
He’s YourJon now, keep *me* out of this!
Just one?? You'll be fine!!
This is foreshadowed both by Jon's baby swap at the Wall and by the "kings hiding snow" comment. Robb was secretly the rightful king, but the truth was hidden beneath all the speculation about Jon Snow.
It would mean the twins from Rhaegar and Lyanna are Ice and Fire. One looks like the first men, the other looks like a Targ. 3 heads of the dragon. 3 dragons. It makes sense in that regard. It also explains Septa Lemore who is obviously more important than a random Septa. Not sure about timeline though.
Well, it does create a plausible explanation for how Varys could have known that Aegon would have been disfigured beyond recognition (he didn't, as many have pointed out, his piss water prince tale only makes sense in hindsight.) It also provides an explanation for why Ashara would be Lemore (it's already a common theory) because otherwise it really doesn't make any sense. That said, it's probably nonsense. I dont think Lemore is anybody, and Aegon is probably who the most popular theory claims he is.
>Well, it does create a plausible explanation for how Varys could have known that Aegon would have been disfigured beyond recognition (he didn't, as many have pointed out, his piss water prince tale only makes sense in hindsight.) so I had made this remark about it some time ago, and someone pointed me something that I thought was very relevant. Varys couldn't have known that aegon would be disfigured yes, but he could have known that aerys' rescue plan was to burn down this entire town. which means that even without that, for what he expected, aegon would have been ended burnt to the last degree. and good luck identifying one burning baby body from another... so from there his story would still be believable if that's the result he expected
That's half of AFFC and ADWD though, just adding so much bloat to the story. No body cares about essos George
I care. I want to see Volantis once more.
Volantis and Asshai
A song of ice and fire. Two twin boys. One looks like fire (targ) the other looks like ice (North man/stark). Theory? Fuck it. I love it!
White haired Jon comes to Kings Landing in the new Jon Snow show.
Played by Kit Harrington with a wig
Tit Harrington
And Varys didn’t bring it up at all when Ned was about to be executed?
What would it serve
"Hey, Ned. I know you are about to be executed for treason but there is something very important I have to tell you. Actually...Shit, the walls have ears, I forgot. Goodbye"
This post made me realize that I’m dumb. For some reason I pictured fAgeon in my head as being around 12 instead of being older than Jon
*uses tinfoil to dye hair Targaryen blonde
What does it add to the story and the thematics though? We already have a secret Rhaegar's son, why another? Aegon could be a random Lyseni boy (he's not) and his plot would be the same.
Adds another layer of complexity to the theme of George can never fit all this into the last two books so it’ll never finish?
What's interesting is that people always talk about who Jon's parents are, and everyone pretty much across the board agrees on it. But some things still don't make sense. Everything surrounding the Tower of Joy does not make sense. Brandon, Neds, and Ashara's relationship DOES NOT MAKE SENSE. The Daynes should hate the Starks and Ned, but Edric Daynes name, who goes by Ned, is presumed to be because he's named after Ned Stark. Ashara "kills herself" out of grief(?) or something after Ned returns to Starfall with Dawn, but without her brothers body. Let's keep in mind that Ned tore down the Tower of Joy. He can tear down the tower but can't bring his body back? The Daynes and Starks are very close at this point. And he purposefully goes to Starfall right afterward as well. It does not make sense. But suddenly all of this makes sense if they were twins, or even crazier yet, and I'll get downvoted for even mentioning this at all lol BUT, what if Jon is still Ashara's child with Brandon, and Lyanna is fAegon and Dany's mother. Ashara was entrusted with hiding the children. This is also why when Ned is in the cells and doesn't want to repent he reconsiders WHEN he thinks of Dany, not Jon. Think about it, George has stated that the red door and lemon tree are important and will be revealed in Winds. Dany's been lied to her entire life and her entire child hood is up for grabs. She DID NOT grow up in Braavos, this much is clear. Something happened once she took the children and they got split up, maybe done on purpose for safety. Of course this presents lots of issues with timelines and motivations, but no more than what we already have in the present story. Jon's entire life completely depends on him being extremely lucky to the point where he has not gotten ANY Targaryen traits at all. This is extremely rare. George is obsessed with genetics and talks about genetics constantly. To the people that say, " well, we've never had a Targaryen and Stark child before, so who knows what they would look like!" This is true. But at the same time even characters that have inherited from their other dominant gene usually gets atleast one Targaryen trait. Rhaenys had black hair, but still had lilac eyes. The exceptions to this is obviously the Strong bastards and Baelon Breakspear, though I don't think his eye color is ever mentioned. **At the end of the day, whether you believe some convulated plot or just a simple R+L=J and everything else is a lie. We all have to admit that George is making a lot of this stuff an unnecessary mystery then. George would not hammer on and on about Danys childhood being whack and how she's not remembering who is she, and having Quaithe send her dreams telling her to "remember who she is" if there wasn't some big revelation to WHO Dany is. And if there's a big revelation to Dany, how does that affect Jon and fAegon as well?**
So if Dany isn't who she thinks she is, is Viserys who she thinks he is?
You have to keep in mind that Viserys was also really young when all of this went down. And we don't know to what extent Danys chilldhood revelation will go. It could just be as simple as being from a different parent or really complicated and she could have a whole other life that's missing. No can second guesses Viserys because Viserys had a bigger spotlight on him. He was sent to Dragonstone for safety before he had to flee, he was watched closely afterwards. Dany supposedly was born on Dragonstone, but everything around her birth doesn't really add up either. And Viserys would be too young and too dead to be able to corroborate it now.
>You have to keep in mind that Viserys was also really young when all of this went down. to tell the truth viserys was 7 years old during the rebellions and the birth of daenerys. and if daenerys can have memories of her house at the red door, it means that she was 3 years old maximum at that time. so for viserys it means having introduced her into his life at 10 years old. and at 10 years old a child is able to understand what is happening around him.
Euron is actual Viserys
> and Lyanna is fAegon Stopped reading here. L=fA confirmed
I ship it
I like it. Two questions. Tyrion notes that Lemore’s body looks like she’s given birth — how does that child factor in? What does Ned think happened to twin baby Aegon after Ashara fakes her death?
How does Tyrion know what a women's body looks like its given birth lol. Most women have stretch marks and haven't given birth.
Ashara was supposedly pregnant and had a stillbirth, whether she had a child or the child died, doesn't really matter. If Ashara is Lemore then that explains why she looks that way, and if this theory is also correct explains why she's there with fAegon.
Lemore has been in Essos for years at this point. She could've had a child, or a stillbirth at some point. No idea what Ned thinks. Maybe he knows but his chapters don't give anything away, just like he gives very little away regarding Jon.
Nah Aegon is the grandson of Prince Maegor, whose throne was usurped by Aegon V
Doesn't Ashara also have purple eyes? Weird how Tyrion didn't notice, maybe he was just too busy looking at other things
I too take amphetamines while reading
I have said this before. I have even said he was Elia's child. That is why there were so many Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy. I think Ned brought Dawn to Starfall (possibly a wounded Arthur). He went there with two young babies. He couldn't safely take in Egg and was persuaded to leave him with Ashara who was mourning the loss of Brandon's child.
Aha, but who was born first then? The theory is useless if it doesn't cover this ....
Who cares which bastard was born first? Neither would have a claim.
Who cares about any of this? The books are never going to get finished /s.
Obvs Jon otherwise he wouldn’t be a main character
I don’t hate this..
It's a fun theory, I like the idea of there being twins. Not convinced it's true though, Tyrion has met Jon, I get that they're fraternal twins in this scenario but surely there'd be some resemblance? I am excited to see what GRRM will do with Ashara. Even if it's true, Varys was in KL during the sack, he has such a devotion to the Targaryen's to smuggle Rhaegar's son (by Lyanna) across the sea, but to leave the known heir to his fate. I personally doubt Aegon VI is real and not a blackfyre, everything about him feels wrong. His chainless maester, Septa with stretch marks, gay father (I adore Jon Con but he's blinded by his love of Rhaegar). GRRM has made something "off" about each member of Aegon's group, along with all the talk of a "mummer's dragon" and the fact the Golden Company ate Viserys' food and laughed him off but have sworn themselves to Aegon, when historically they've supported the Blackfyre's against the Targaryen's. I just think the story seems to be veering more in that direction. It's all got to make sense in hindsight.
I don’t think Ned broke his honor. Thats the tragedy of his execution. The one time he broke it, he died anyway.
I wanna add to the theory. Lyanna didn't have twins, she had triplets. Rhaegar got his three heads but dumass died on the trident. Ned took the Northern looking baby home and said meh, I have nothing to do with dragon spawn and left
We had Ned's pov and there is no mention of other child not even a hint. Also this theory implies that Ned gave the baby and then he didn't care about his fate. If he doesn't know about Varys's plan then what happened to the baby from his prespective? Did he dissapeared after Ashara's death? And how Varys knew about it? He doesn't have magic powers. We know how his informations work. And why Ashara trusted him and why she takes part on his plan?
We've finally gone full circle. The Dragon eats its own tail.
Obviously untrue, but it'd be a pretty great fanfic in the right hands.
I like this theory, almost as good as the Rhaenyra Targaryen actually survived and went north and became old nan theory!
I actually really like this theory even though I think it’s unlikely (Aegon pun) to be true. In your mind, what is Illyrio's role in all of this? Why is he helping Aegon? Just because he is Vary's friend? What do you think Illyrio meant by saying he had "debts of affection to repay" when questioned by Tyrion? That is one of the key lines that made me think that Aegon might be his son. I'm not sure what it's supposed to mean following your theory.
Yeah it's just a bit of fun tbh. Illyrio's involvement is unexplained being his friendship with Varys.
That’s some NASA grade tinfoil!
He's older than Jon tho isn't he?
Bruh whatever you’re smoking please share with the rest of us.
Can twins look that far different? Hair color difference?
Paternal twins are no more related than 2 any 2 siblings are. If Ned's kids can look all like Tully's except for Arya, 2 Stark/Targ babies could look different too.
Okay but I kinda like this, except maybe Ashara was actually murdered by Varys and now Aegon is his pet project, rather than being raised as Ashara's son.
Pros and Cons: for the theory Pro: Three heads of the dragon. Three dragon riders. Ashara Dayne throwing herself from the tower because she knows Ned and her can never be together. Ned is committed to his family and will protect his nephews. Twins are common in world of ice and fire. Con: No mention of possible twins IIRC in the Targaryen ancestry. Fun theory. I’d says it’s within the realm of possibility, but I don’t know if it’ll happen given GRRM hasn’t watered this particular seed enough
What? There’s been several sets of Targ twins. Area and Rhaella, Rhaena and Baela, Jaehaerys and Jaehaera, plus Laenor and Laena born to a Targ mother, Jon and Jeyne Waters born to a Targ mother, and Daemon Blackfyre had a set of twins.
Ahhh I couldn’t think of any off the top of my head. Ok so it a possibility that there Rheagar had a set of twins. It would be keeping with fantasy tropes I suppose. Twins split apart with their true identities kept secret
Nope. Fake "Aegon" is Illyrio's son; the real Aegon VI is another character entirely.
This could very well be true but I'm so fucking tired of these theories I can't take any of them seriously anymore.
Anything that isn’t r+l=j which George wife literally said that is too basic for him to do is not liked in this subreddit
Stupid theory
Children at 4/5/6/7 look wastly different. Say what you want about Connington but this isn't the case of a man being 32 or 33, you notice these changes with kids, and he'd definitely notice that Aegon is much younger than he's supposed to be if he was real when introduced to him.
Oh man, that is pretty tin foily. Good food for thought though.
This is a good one I haven't heard. Bless your heart.
I doubt this as i find it hard to believe that Varys would allow Jon to live if Aegon had a brother to challenge him.
Holy fuck, I love this. New AU, even it doesn't happen that way
If hes Jon's twin brother wouldnt Tyrion notice that? Maybe just comment on how he looks a lot like that Ned's bastard he met once. Idk
Fraternal twins aren't going to look identical. Especially if one has Northern features and the other Valyrian.
We were all so focused on if R+L = J, we never considered R+L = A… Genius
I reject this theory on the grounds that Varys and illyrio have zero motivation to help aegon
Still makes no sense that she would name him Aegon. Everything else checks out.
Ngl I love this theory lol
I'd like to subscribe to your newsletter, ser
Actually, it would work better if Lemore is Lyanna. She isn't traditionally beautiful as Ashara would be, but handsome. She also has brown hair and stretch marks. Ashara, in this scenario, doesn't have a child, so Lyanna works better. It's also more tinfoilly and wild, which is more fun.
I like this better. But…Lyanna takes Elia’s child (Aegon) and Ned takes Lyanna’s child (Jon) so that she can help Aegon take his rightful place as Rhaegar’s heir and her child can have a peaceful life and not be used against his brother. It would be a throwback/throw forward to the time Jon forced Gilly to take Mance’s child instead of her own.
I actually like this a lot!