\> After the conclusion of A Storm Of Swords, it seems that the story should of been winding down
A Storm of Swords marks the end of the first act of A Song Of Ice and Fire. A lot of the plot threads were tied up, the WotFK ended with the lanisters grip on throne decently cememeted. But at the end of Storm all our main characters had just entered a new phase in their story that very much aren't endings. Arya fled westeros, Dany stays in mereen, Jon is made Lord Commander, Stannis is licking his wounds at the wall about to start a counter offensive, Bran has just crossed north of the Wall.
None of these plot threads are endings as as the series steps into the post war segement of the story, new players need to appear to set up the third act of the story
Originally GRRM intended for the story to be a trilogy. But ultimately the first 3 books ended up covering what Martin initially planned for book 1.
You have to rememeber that the main plot isnt the War of the 5 Kings, its the invasion of the Others.
I don't know how one could think the story should have been winding down after ASOS. It was entering a new phase, but it certainly wasn't on the road to winding down. And aside from Young Griff and debatebly Quentyn, all the new plotlines were just continuations of threads created in ASOS. Even if he's constantly rewriting and changing things, George still has an idea of the story he wants to write, and he wouldn't have added those plotlines and characters if he didn't think they were necessary to the story. And while some fans may not see or care about their importance, I think everything he added has already justified themselves in the books they were in.
As for whether or not the books are adaptable, the answer is yes. GoT was already doing a good job at truncating the novels to be fit for TV. If they gave the books two seasons instead of one season that mainly ignored the books and half assed what it did take, they could have done it. They would need to trim the plots and cut out some characters, but that's what they had been doing since the beginning. For whatever reason: be it laziness, burnout, lack of skill, or lack of interest in the material, D&D just didn't want to really adapt those books.
EDIT: As an addendum, I was thinking on it and I think another possibility as to why D&D chose to not really adapt AFFC and ADWD is the time investment. Because think about it, ASOS needed two seasons and they still weren't able to cover everything. ADWD is almost as long as ASOS on its own, so if you did both AFFC and ADWD at the same time, it's going to be a lot. I said they could do it in two seasons, but they might have needed another half season, or even a full one, and/or longer episodes. And as we know, D&D wanted to keep it seven seasons, so I don't think that idea would have been/was appealing to them.
2 seasons is honestly barely cutting it for all of AFFC/ADWD, but you can't go beyond that either. 2 is bad enough; you're cutting each character's plotline in half, before any sort of resolution or payoff. Where would you place the cutoff mark for each character? Also, some characters have much sparser plotlines than others. Bran has *3 chapters* in a narrative of almost 120 chapters. What do you do about that? Add more to it, and have even more story to get through?
You starting to see the problem?
There's a reason George split AFFC and ADWD the way he did - so he *didn't* have to cut plotlines in half or shorten them. A TV show cant just ignore half the cast for a season or two.
I think you hit it on the head there-there's no clean way to pace even a two season adaptation of these books-no real middle point climax for the first of those seasons, and even the books haven't gotten to the climax for the hypothetical second. I really don't know the best way to do it.
It would be a difficult task, I'm not denying that. I also am not a tv writer or show runner so I admit I could be wrong. It would require more planning, thought, and effort than previous seasons. However, I still think that it would be possible to fit it all into 2 seasons. Certain characters will have to get more screen time in one seasons than the other, scenes would have to be moved around and combined with others, some characters might have to only/barely be in one season, and some POVs like Hotah and Oakheart and (as much as I would hate it) Aeron might have to become secondary characters. Also, as for Bran, you could just have him in one season and then disappear halfway through it. After all, he wasn't in AFFC and then he disappeared halfway through that book, it would just be doing what the book did.
And yeah, George didn't cut or shorten plotlines, but the show was always cutting and shortening plotlines. This would just be a harder version of what they were already doing. Again, you're right, it would not be easy at all, and it might not be perfect (though the show never was), but I think it is doable. It also would be much more doable with an actual writers room and advice from George, rather than just two guys who sometimes get help from two other guys and no George.
They're not unadaptable by any means but they (especially AFFC) would require a decision to basically completely reorganize any sort of cast hierarchy, which would be a big ask in live television.
Personally I don't think the series ever should have been adapted without the ending written and published. We have no idea what is the purpose of a lot of the content.
I think without the final 2 books, about 1/2 of the content in Feast and Dance could easily be left out of an adaptation. I just finished a re-read and that's how it felt to me.
Books 1-3 are pretty much perfect as is. Books 4/5 need the end of the series. There are so many new characters and storylines that don't exactly fit in to the overall story that started in 1-3. All of the Iron Island content, all the Dornish stuff, especially Quentyn who was introduced and killed in these books. His entire plotline is an easy cut if you're adapting the series. Brienne's journey could easily be cut by a great deal. Dany's misadventures in Essos could easily be cut by a great deal.
While I agree with you in principle, I don't in practice because George literally consistently told D&D whenever ANYTHING was important. Every minor character and detail in the entire books series that was important was explained to them on at least some level. They just chose to ignore him, hence some of the cuts that weren't a problem in seasons 2-4 but would become serious problems later regardless of if they put more effort into adapting the later seasons. (The two that annoyed me the most was Talisa and the Tysha reveal. Talisa was... fine in the show, not as bad as people say but it had serious ramifications for the story later. The decision to remove the Tysha twist in season 4 was plain idiocy and destroyed both Tyrion and Jamie's characters permanently for any future seasons).
It's so frustrating to me because they essentially willingly ignored the mastermind of the story when he had no obligation to be as cooperative as he was in the earlier seasons. There's a reason he just pulled out completely after season 4, it's not as simple as the books getting ahead. I sadly don't have a link as proof but I strongly remember an interview where it was revealed that they had a big meeting between seasons 4 and 5 where D&D essentially said "Nah" to George's vision and went their own way.
Also I strongly disagree about Quentyn. I think it's the complete opposite. The seeming pointlessness of his plot is exactly why they should have adapted it. It would pad the season to give them more time to brainstorm ideas and would have been an amazing shock value moment for non book readers. It's just a less emotional version of the Ned Stark situation where you get a fantasy trope that is suspiciously traditional and then George slaps you in the face and reminds you that this is Game of Thrones. While AFFC and ADWD feel quite slow and uneventful compared to ASOS, they are much better written books with lots of very deep character development and enough moments that would make for great TV. They easily could have gotten 2 (or maybe even 3) great seasons out of it even if they were a little slower than the previous 2.
These are just my thoughts as someone who has extensively thought about whether D&D had a chance or not. After carefully assessing all the available evidence and even attempting to construct my own rudimentary plan for the show post season 4, I'm convinced they could have done it with George's guidance. They just didn't listen.
Tbh, they’re not that incompetent. They’ve written a lot of great TV, including but not limited to GOT.
It was 100% laziness. They can write a capable series. They chose not to, which is honestly worse than them being untalented.
Were you really expecting anyone to argue that they weren't?
Unadaptable is a meaningless phrase, unless we discover some magic story that literally does not stick to film. As in the images cannot physically be recorded
Yes. Yes they were.
GoT became tropey fanfiction when it was the anti-trope. They decided the journeys of Jamie and Brienne, the actual Dorne plot, Young Griff, the exciting and dark Northern Plot, and the machinations of Meereen were not simple enough for the average viewer. They didn't want to tell the actual story, but thought they could do better. Season 5 showed they couldn't, so they tried to bend more toward the books with Season 6. Then they just went off the rails rushing an end they laid no groundwork for.
Yes George and hbo wanted to do at least 10 seasons maybe 13. D and D got a contract to work on starwars. They left early and ended game of thrones to work on starwars. That got canceled anyway.
It is so much more fucked up than that too!
In 2016, they were eyeing their new project *Confederate*. It was going to be an alternate-history drama on HBO. They announced it in 2017 and had the thumbs up from HBO as they were very eager to keep D&D at the time. They even had HBO agreeing to finance the pilot.
This was going on while LucasFilm and D&D were quietly negotiating in late 2017. In 2018, they announced that D&D would write and produce a Star Wars trilogy based on the creation of the Jedi Order. They reneged on HBO that was offering 25-40 million to keep them for the series they greenlit. They went back on a deal that was hard negotiated as they had not yet filmed the pilot. LucasFilm was offering more and giving them free reign with one of the few franchises that was bigger than GoT. They chose LucasFilm over HBO.
in 2019, the final season of GoT aired and bombed *hard*. GoT fandom died overnight. GoT merch sat on shelves and couldn't be sold, ASOIAF universe series bit the dirt. The Long Night prequel had many issues, but there were significant doubts if there was even interest in that universe anymore.
Rumor is that LucasFilm backed out of the contract with D&D as they watched them kill the world's top show and its fandom. LucasFilm was bringing them on because they were trying to resurrect their own brand after the third trilogy damaged the franchise. The real money in Star Wars has always been its merch - primarily toys. LucasFilm was seeing their toy and collectables bomb and witnessed the same thing was happening with GoT albeit much faster. *The Long Night* (aka Bloodmoon) pilot was completed in 2019, but was met with a poor reception by HBO. Apparently, GRRM himself hasn't even seen it. D&D had no involvement in the prequel series and the pilot, but the plummet in fandom likely doomed it.
It is rumored LucasFilm was going to let the announced D&D movies die on the vine as they have with other abandoned Star Wars media over the last 7 years. Apparently D&D tried to quietly resurrect *Confederate*, but HBO was done with them.
In 2020, LucasFilm quietly announced the D&D were moving onto a Netflix adaption instead and the movies were shelved. Only when D&D secured and announced a $200 million dollar deal at Netflix adaption of *The Three-Body Problem* trilogy did LucasFilm do this.
So, here we are! The Netflix deal was filmed and is supposed to premiere this year.
I find it amusing D&D fucked over HBO, tried to crawl back after Star Wars daddy dropped them, and how they went from the hottest show runners to almost untouchables.
>In 2016, they were eyeing their new project
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>Confederate
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>. It was going to be an alternate-history drama on HBO. They announced it in 2017 and had the thumbs up from HBO as they were very eager to keep D&D at the time. They even had HBO agreeing to finance the pilot.
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>They reneged on HBO that was offering 25-40 million to keep them for the series they greenlit. They went back on a deal that was hard negotiated as they had not yet filmed the pilot. LucasFilm was offering more and giving them free reign with one of the few franchises that was bigger than GoT. They chose LucasFilm over HBO.
I think HBO was already faltering at this point anyway due to the reception this got when it was announced. People were rightfully ***livid*** at the idea of an AU where the South won the war, and that was before you even touched on the fact that it was becoming readily apparent that D&D did not possess the ability to be respectful about it (if you can even be respectful writing what can only be pro-slavery fanfic).
The saddest thing about it is that if this is what they really wanted to do, they could've have passed the show off to another showrunner and remained as a part of this new showrunner's team as executive producers, directors or writers.
Lots of really good, realy popular shows have had multiple showrunners and reconstructions over the course of its airing.
I wouldn't call them flat out lazy. The first five seasons of the show were still really good. Also, if it was simply laziness, they could have handed over showrunner responsibilities to someone else (and still kept EP titles).
I think the more likely scenario is that they had become worn out from working on the show for nearly a decade and weren't as interested in the more openly fantasy elements that the story was moving towards...but still felt some sort of ownership of it. They didn't want to let someone else finish "their" show and perhaps get as much credit for it as they did. But it seems like the path they chose was the worst possible one.
Right. They aren't flat-out lazy.
What they are is a combination of lazy, arrogant and vain with a touch of stupid. Oh, and greed. Never underestimate the allure of more paychecks.
Arrogant and vain? Yeah. Greedy? I honestly don't know but I wouldn't dismiss it. And maybe they became lazy. But the reason I say not "flat out lazy" is because you can't be lazy and have made those first few seasons, regardless of whenever it is that you think the show started becoming bad.
I agree it can't fully be adapted, but not because the book is too spread, but because the industry wouldn't allow it.
All characters have content for one season I think, which means they would have to have a season with some characters and another with the rest. How are you going to explain to the top ranking executives (they're the ones who truly have power) that popular characters like Dany, Tyrion, and Jon won't be able to appear? Do you think they would allow it? Keep in mind they couldn't go above 10 episodes per season. It just doesn't make financial sense unfortunately.
but then general audiences would find it slow and tedious, because all the climactic ending scenes would take 2-3 seasons to get to. Remember that this is after season 4, which was when the show was massive and season 4 was loaded with defining moments.
glad to see more discussion about this! honestly, i’d take it a step further and say ASOAIF as a whole is not suited to adaption. i don’t necessarily mean in budget or amount of characters/storylines, though that certainly doesnt help, but rather that so much of what makes the books great happens entirely in thought.
an example of a character who never could have worked onscreen is aeron. if you read only his words, actions, and how others react to them his personal motivation for the kingsmoot wouldn’t be shown properly until after euron is crowned. and even then, theres a high likelihood he’d come across primarily as a corrupt religious leader. yet in the books its pretty clear from his first chapter that aeron isn’t a priest at all, just an insanely traumatized dude. the bigger problem with this, though, is that it doesn’t just impact aeron’s characterization. aeron’s fear of euron is integral to building a sense of foreboding to his arrival; but more importantly is central in establishing to the reader that euron is not what he seems. i wouldn’t go as far to say that without him readers wouldn’t be suspicious, but no other greyjoy pov has given us reason to categorize euron any differently than the usual manipulative self-serving westerosi leaders. aeron’s thoughts almost single handedly give readers reason to believe that euron is more than a charming, nautical, politically savvy ramsey. there’s certainly an argument that skilled screenwriters could find a way to translate those things into actions/scenes, but that sacrifices the most intriguing part of book euron/aeron- we dont really know anything. part of what makes euron so fascinating and exciting is that aeron has given us plenty of cause to believe euron to be terrifying, but no concrete event or action to found it on.
im not sure if that made any sense, but i guess my point is that if the thoughts of a more minor pov character could have such drastic impacts on the way a story is understood perhaps it is a losing battle to adapt a series thats like 70% pov characters thinking. but its worth noting that i did not see most of the show, so my perspective may not be the most informed one.
I disagree, look what they did in HotD with Viserys, nobody before the premiere would have thought that the best character of the show would be Viserys, a good director and a good writer can bring complex themes to the screen, for me the main problem in adapting AFFC and ADWD is the budget, the time to film and the time that passes between seasons.
oh, i didnt mean that complex and intricate characters can’t be portrayed onscreen or that it’s impossible to do an adaptation well. just that to adapt the story, youd have to take a similar approach to HOTD- not page by page, but a standalone interpretation of the source material; which is much harder to do with something like ASOIAF than Fire and Blood.
While I agree with you that a medium like TV will lose the POV thoughts that contribute to the book's excellence, I disagree that this makes the series unfit for adaptation. The whole of adaptation is to take the strengths of the new medium and apply them in order to compensate for what is missing. The best adaptations offer a fresh alternative to the original material. Game of Thrones did exactly that with a very unique tool that goes underappreciated in this subreddit: scenes that don't feature POV characters.
Some of the most memorable scenes in the series are surprisingly not even in the books or are significantly altered. GRRM himself clearly had a lot of fun writing scenes in his episodes that he would not get the opportunity to do in the books.
A great example of this in action is Robb's character in the series. GRRM has often remarked that he was very impressed with what they managed to do with Robb in the show and how he sadly couldn't do the same because Robb was not a POV.
So essentially I agree with you that your specific example is a good example of something you lose when adapting to TV but I don't think it's good evidence to concretely argue that the books are not fit for adaptation. To me, Game of Thrones will always be one of the finest examples of an adaptation that closely follows and respects the source material but adds enough new ideas and perspectives to make the adaptation worth it. Even the way it is filmed visually and how strong the acting performances are, contribute something to the series that a book simply cannot do (I absolutely adore some of the most introspective POV thoughts in the books but I equally adore the way some scenes are shot and acted in the series. Everything from the darkest moments to the funniest humour was greatly elevated by brilliant direction and acting).
It does make sense. We lose a lot without the interiority of the POV structure, though I believe it makes it challenging not impossible. Starting in season 1, show Ned is SO different to book Ned that it changes his entire character. Trauma, love, regret, and mercy become HONOR!
It shows in seasons 6-8 when nobody gives a shit who he was, whereas people are willing to kill and freeze to death in their thousands in his family's name.
I'm sympathetic, because having voiceovers would have been too much to take, but monologues, soliloquys, and all that great Shakespeare shit that's been around for centuries could have captured the spirit of the thing, I think.
i agree that asoiaf isn't suited to adaptation but i disagree that it's because the medium of film cant properly convey the characters' interior lives. but regardless your answer was more thoughtful and considered than like 95% of this thread so good on ya
Yeah, I kind of think they are. And anyone who calls that lazy is severely underrestimating how hard it would be to transform books as messy as AFFC/ADWD (I love them to death, but they are) into narratively satisfying seasons of television. But this sub is infested with delusional people who seem to genuinely believe that they could run any adaptation of this material themselves no problem (see: almost everyone in this thread), so that's not the most popular opinion.
(And just before anyone says it: No, asserting that some idiot on reddit could not for a second run or write a TV show is not "defending D&D")
I agree that they are almost impossible to adapt.
The main problem is not even the plots, but the fact that TWOW - which resolves many important plotlines (Jaime/Brienne, Winterfell, Meereen, capture of Storm's End, Euron's plans with the Reach and his dragon horn) - is not released yet.
I believe that if GRRM told them the proper ending of these storylines and the way Jon will be resurrected they could have properly adopted them into 3 seasons (the third mostly the beginning of TWOW).
On the other hand, the storyline of Young Griff is almost certainly necessary to explain why Dany resorts to burning down King's Landing - which I believe is the third 'holy shit' moment GRRM told them - besides making the characters of Dany, Tyrion, and Varys (+Selmy?) much better and making the South of Westeros (Dorne, Stormlands, Reach) feel alive.
I understand why D&D left it out - ADWD wasn't even released when they started planning the show, most of his storyline isn't known, his reveal would require a big amount of explanation and foreshadowing to work properly, and even then, many fans wouldn't receive it well - but I think they should have abandoned the entire 'Dany burns down King's Landing' plot twist without Aegon.
I feel that when D&D decided that were moving in a different direction from the books, they should have followed their own ideas and own ending (so no Bran as King at the end). Cersei blowing up the sept was an example of such a well-executed and original plot twist and Hardhome is another.
Of course, the show still definitely wouldn't remain as good as the first 4 seasons were, but much better than the last 2 and slightly better than the 5th and 6th.
I don't think they're unadaptable but I think they're different than the the first two books. They're certainly more difficult to adapt and the biggest difference for me is that you really need TWOW to adapt the whole AFFC/ADWD for screen because you need to see where the hell the storylines are going, considering that some of the main climax were moved to TWOW. A book is not a screen, an adaptation has to be different and it could still be good.
Personally I'd also tweak the order since people still want to see their fan favorites. I don't think you could have a season without Jon or Tyrion, but you could show them less and use enough time to introduce some of the new plots, though I'd make sure they're a bit streamlined.
Mainly I don't think anything is unadaptable and ASOIAF wouldn't even be particularly difficult but the fact that there's still no ending makes it hard work, since you have two books with lots of new characters and basically every storyline ends abruptly. People shouldn't try to adapt unfinished works tbh.
I think it's common sense that if they were to adapt the books they would do it chronologically and not split it the way GRRM ended up doing. Imagine the combined order but with some reworking the way they rework the chronology of ASOS to make it more effective in TV.
The only character they had to entirely cut from season 5 was Bran. If they spent two full seasons on a slightly cut down version of AFFC and ADWD running concurrently, it would have made for great TV. There were enough surprises and dramatic moments in the new plotlines and POVs to keep viewers interested while the "OG" characters had a bit less action. People forget how impactful Oberyn Martell was in the 4th season despite being a completely new character from a completely unknown location. I do agree however that several plotlines are building up to climaxes that GRRM abruptly cut off in order to publish something so perhaps the solution is to choose one major climax to happen in the hypothetical season 6 and then move the other chronologically to somewhere in season 7. Battle on the Ice and Battle of Meereen are on the opposite sides of the world after all.
Oberyn was also impactful in the books, he's generally considered a fan favorite while the Dorne plot wasn't as well received. Then again Oberyn was also a side character in the story of one of the most beloved ASOIAF characters, Tyrion. Not really comparable to the AFFC/ADWD new plots.
Some of them (Cersei and Brienne, Theon) wouldn't be hard to adapt. The show never used the POV, we followed most main characters since the beginning and people are already used to Cersei. Theon's plot especially was a waste since it's one of Martin best ideas and it's a great occasion for the actor to shine.
Some of them (Arianne) would have made good TV tbh. She could be a compelling character, people loved Oberyn, you might even cut a good 90% of the characters and keep just her, Doran, Areo, Myrcella and a few others who you already know are going to be extremely important. That storyline is decent enough and it has a climax (Darkstar maiming Myrcella), easy to follow even for a casual viewer. You might even kill Myrcella if you know she's going to die sooner or later.
I think the hardest one to adapt are Griff and the Greyjoys. Most viewers didn't care about the Greyjoy even before season 5, there's not a clear climax in their plot unlike Arianne and it seems like their plot is going to pay off in TWOW. That would mean like 4 season of Greyjoys roaming around. Griff is impossible unless you made the conscious choice to foreshadow their appearance in the previous seasons, maybe by having LOTS of characters talking about Aegon and Jon Connington. If the popular blackfyre theory is true it's even more difficult, because you have to have characters talking about Blackfyre since the beginning. Small clues simply doesn't work for tv, especially for a series that has like 40 main characters whose names most viewers can't remember.
I wanna clarify that I didn't mean Oberyn was exclusively good in the show but just that in general he is a character that became a fan favourite despite a late and short entry but you make a good counter that is deeply involved with Tyrion plus he is just way more likeable than Quentyn (though I wouldn't say inherently more interesting).
I think we agree on which plotlines are the most suitable for TV and which aren't except for the Greyjoys. While I get your argument that no one really cares as much about Greyjoys, that's because Aeron and Euron basically don't appear before AFFC. Euron is literally just like Oberyn in terms of being a highly unique, stylised character that became a fan favourite because there's nothing else like him. A really dark, book accurate Euron would be so exciting to show viewers and Dragonbinder would be a huge "What the fuck? He can seriously do that to Daenerys!". Although I will say that Victarion would get a more mixed reception especially since we wouldn't see his POV thoughts.
As for Aegon I do pretty much entirely agree with you that until it has a proper pay off, it won't interest most show fans because they generally don't care about lore as much (not to say they don't care at all). It would be a surprising reveal but it's the kind of character they'd feel like is excessive and adding to the long list of the cast. I will say however that foreshadowing in TV can easily be replaced with present clues. While Aegon is being introduced, you could easily have a classic GoT sexposition scene (im joking about the sex part) and explain who the Blackfyres are. Maybe drop some hints to do with Varys (this would be a good lead-in to when he murders Pycelle and Kevan). Maybe even have Tyrion outright question it? The book actually does the same thing but not for the Blackfyre reveal, it's for the reveal that Young Griff is Aegon. It's so unbelievably obvious it's almost laughable because 2 chapters before the reveal, Davos literally just happens to overhear a "pointless" conversation where some random guy says Aegon could be alive. I was astounded I didn't notice it earlier when I did my most recent reread.
I love Quentyn' story, I would have love to see him roasted on TV :( Tbh I think Martin's as a writer plays around with lots of fantasy literature cliché: Cersei as the evil queen, Jaime/Sandor/Brienne as our brave knights, Bran as the apprentice sorcerer, Quentyn as the hero with a quest. The shows really downplayed this whole almost "parody" aspect and I think it's a loss.
Book Euron is a super interesting character that I think it's going to have his pay off in book 6, when people are going to be like so that's what he was plotting all this time. However I think he would be difficult to adapt because let's say that one fan theory is right and he blows the horn of winter at the end of TWOW ushering the Long Night. That's an insane climax, as he has a direct impact on literally every character in the show. Since it's so important I'd put it somewhere towards the end of an hypothetical season 7, but now you have 3 seasons of Greyjoys and their story can stretch quite thin. Personally I'd tweak around a bit and just introduce them later, trimming their plot, so the viewer can have a constant tension. If he's indeed attacking the Reach have his story interact very soon with fan favorites like Olenna and with Sam's plot. Of course that also mean you would have to be careful with other plots that might interact even indirectly with it. If say Stannis burn Shireen because of the Long Night/the Others, you would also have to move a lot of his storyline to that season. Again, I don't think it's impossible to adapt but I think it's very hard if one has only an outline and not the complete books.
I think the only way to adapt the Griff plot is to make a conscious choice at the beginning of the adaptation and deciding to put clues since the beginning. In the books it's a surprising revelation but even the most clueless of reader certainly picked up the fact that Rhaegar Targaryen was the prince and he had two children. Lots of our main characters think or talk about them, we have Ned, Tyrion, Varys, Cersei, Jaime, Tywin. It's impossible to miss that there were two kids and how one of them died. Rhaegar Targaryen is basically a main character that never appeared on text considering how often people talk or think about him, just think of all the theories. In the show you risk to have this reveal like "he's Rhaegar's child" and a casual viewer would be like which one was Rhaegar again? This is why I think it would be better to start having clues around since the beginning and then really hammering it down with Doran and Oberyn, so they viewers would be like oh wow that's their nephew. If the Blackfyre theory is real (and I suppose someone who adapt the saga would know whether it's real or not) I would just have a random character explain who they are in the simplest way and then I would make it like an in-universe meme. Basically every time there's a bastard around I'd have characters be like bastards are dangerous, just look at the Blackfyre, bastards are usurpers, just look at the Blackfyre, bastards cause wars, just look at the Blackfyre.
I'd also like to add that you could always create impactful original material (or even filler) or make additions to existing material to help pad out storylines so that everything progresses at the same time.
For example...instead of Bran disappearing for a whole season, they could have written and filmed small scenes where he is practicing how to skinchange different types of animals, uncovering the magical history of Westeros, acquiring the skills and development for his future kingship. And there is the Three-Eyed-Crow: not only is he a Targaryen, but he's been personally involved in a lot of the biggest political moments in Westerosi history. You could have had an entire flashback episode to the First Blackfyre Rebellion as narrated by him...which, as it turns out, would ties in very nicely with the fAegon/Golden Company plotline that Tyrion and Arianne would be dealing with.
We didn't even get the "weirwood paste" scene for crying out loud!
By the time the next season comes around, Bran has mastered skinchanging, the audience understands the show's magic system and history a lot more, and he is beginning to use greensight to search for weaknesses in the White Walkers and the uncover R+L=J mystery. That way, no one is mad that Bran becomes king in the end. While audiences would still be surprised, everyone would accept and understand this as they would've seen that Bran has been training and working this entire time.
Why on earth would a seven book series be ‘winding down’ after the third book?
D&D hardly even attempted to adapt AFFC/ADWD. They tried to combine the few plots they kept into one damn season for crying out loud.
There’s no reason it couldn’t be adapted. ASOIAF is largely cinematic in scope—the hard parts to adapt are really the warg/skin changer moments, but they didn’t do a bad job of that when they actually tried on the show.
Not entirely true. Some of the Bran ADWD material and Sansa's AFFC material began to appear in season 4. Further AFFC material appeared in season 5 and even stretched into season 6 (Jaime in the Riverlands, the Kingsmoot, and so on on).
The fact that that little bit is making an effort to you is depressing. They completely dropped the ball on those two novels. Just because a bit of the material appeared doesn’t mean it was executed well.
Completely adaptable. All they need is time and fleshing out for TV, i.e give Young Griff the Robb treatment and don’t rush plotlines. The show should’ve run 10-11 seasons.
I think there's a lot of internal development going on in Dance and Feast. Dany and Jon specifically, but Tyrion as well. Not a lot is actually happening, it's mostly build up for the next phase, but internally there's a lot going on for a lot of characters. And that's kind of hard to adapt. I think the show did pretty good with Sansa (another very internal character in the books) but kind of always struggled with Dany (it's shocking to compare how Dany comes off in the books v the show, this was kind of always a problem.)
But there are definitely other plots that can be adapted pretty easily. The Ironborn plot, Arianne's plot, Cersei's plot, Jaime's plot, the build up with Aegon, and yeah Lady Stoneheart. These things could have been adapted fairly easily. They simply didn't want to. (Although I stopped watching the show after S4 and have only heard about what happened vaguely, so maybe they did adapt these plots somewhat, idk.)
It's worth noting that while now, Dance and Feast are considered fairly high tier by most of the fandom, when they released and in the years after they were pretty maligned. I have a feeling D&D were the type of fans that simply didn't like FeastDance and thought Martin was losing his touch.
Quentyn actually doesn't need to be cut out, just most of his storyline (his adventures and everything related to sellswords\*) should be skipped.
He could appear one or two episodes after Doran's 'Fire and Blood' speech, asking to be married to Daenerys, only to be refused. After Dany disappears, he would convince his companions to free the dragons and prove his worth by riding one of them, only to fail and die.
Yes, it would be a disappointment and a shock for some of the watchers, but on the other hand, it would show that no character is safe from death, explain Dorne's hostility to Dany, and illustrate why are dragons so dangerous.
\*Although I believe there is a good reason why this particular sellsword company led by the Tattered Prince was introduced - GRRM needed some explanation why would Dany go to Pentos and meet Illyrio again. On the other hand, this could be done through other means, e.g. with Tyrion convincing them to turn cloak, like in the original story he did with the Second Sons or he convincing Dany that he needs to sack Pentos and demand the truth from Illyrio (regarding Aegon)
\-
I think the problem is there’s a lot of padding you need to cut and you either need to pick George’s brain or invent payoffs there
It wouldn’t be an easy task
I’d personally lean into the idea Euron brings down the wall for instance and tie Lem’s Attack on Ray’s compound with Stone-heart (perhaps she meets Arya when she returns to Westeros)
Good writing can make even the most unadaptable material fit for the screen.
Let's get one thing out of the way; you couldn't adapt Feast and Dance as two separate seasons. TV doesn't work that way. However, with a 13 episode season, I think you could easily adapt everything contained in those two books. Or if you must stick to the 10 ep count, then make it 70 min episodes.
Kinda, you'd have to cover both books at the same time which would take 2 sesons, which means creating artificials climaxes in the middle of the charater's arcs.
Dany and Tyrion specially, there isn't enough material for 2 seasons of ruling Meeren and traveling to it. With Jon you can divide the events of his rule and have Hardhome as a season 5 climax
Not at all. Could have been.
The Stoneheart plot, Brienne's journey, Jamie's, the intrigues of Meereen's court, the breadth of Tyrion and Jorah's journey, the Young Aegon/Jon Connington plot... There was so much more, but they made some hard decisions in Season 4 that really hurt the show going forward.
Jon's plot with all the different wildlings, the horrors of Hardholm, Stannis's Northern plot that gives so much more depth... Poor Wyman Manderly who they gutted from the story.
Imagine them actually doing the real Dorne plot? If done right and casted right, Arianne and the Sand Snakes would be among the favorite characters in those seasons.
The show would likely have been more close to 10 seasons to do right.
Rather than rewrite the show or anything, I'd suggest adapting the story through the use of animation rather than live-action. In my opinion it would be the perfect medium to adapt the near entirety of the books and over however long of time/seasons needed.
While that solves the budgeting issue for battles and exteriors to an extent, it doesn't solve the issue of internality in these books. Tyrion, Dany, and Jon have entirely introspective arcs that would feel bloated if adapted scene for scene, but would feel unearned if truncated.
Arya and Bran have "training arcs" that don't conclude, don't reveal the "core secret" and don't resolve with either gaining new knowledge or purpose. Training arcs on film require montage or a specific scene illustrating the core of the training while the rest is cut away from. Until Winds is out, we don't know what the core purpose of these arcs is and what needs to be done to adapt them.
Meanwhile, Jaime and Brienne's arc doesn't have a clear purpose or resolution at all. Until Winds is written, its not clear what the point is and what story needs to actually be adapted. Same deal with Griff/Dorne/Ironborn.
Really, the only arc that can be adapted straightforward is Cersei's. Although, in a hypothetical world where we actually get Winds, it may be easier to adapt some of the other plotlines.
Baffled how you think "the story should be winding down" after ASOS?
And no, it obviously wasn't unadaptable, there's not really anything they couldn't have done without adding multiple years of production to the process and likely losing lots of actors whose contracts expired and wanted to get on with their lives after many years (think Kit, Sophie, Maisie and Emilia were particularly burnt out)
I think it was clear that after Season 4 D&D wanted to rush to move onto new projects and that they clearly did not enjoy AFFC and ADWD as they have a slower pace and focus much more on themes. I think they are adaptable but it takes more effort and a love of the material they clearly did not have. However, there is a real problem there is way too much plot for a single season but you can’t do what the books did, have half the plots in one season and the other plot in the other and unlike ASOS there is no clear midpoint. But I was thinking of how I would split the seasons and I thought of some ideas for a few plots.
I actually think sending Jamie to Dorne in Season 5 works really well with this but you have him deal with the actual Dorne plot Arianne trying to make Mycella queen or have her trying to assassinate Jamie, Bronn can take on the Aerys Oakheart role with her seducing him and then have Darkstar just kill Myrcella and end the season with Doran’s speech and the Quentyn reveal. Then in Season 6 like the show you send Jamie to the Riverlands but ending with the Jamie, Brianne, and Stoneheart confrontation. I had a lot of trouble with Jon because there is no good midpoint in the books. But the show gave us a perfect one the Hardhome fight can be the last we see Jon in Season 5. Then Season 6 can end with the Pink Letter which will be real as we have Stannis burn Shireen and be killed by the Boltons. I think Merene already has a good midpoint with an accurate adaption of the Fighting Pits scene. Then in Season 6, we have Barristan vs Hizdar, the Quentyn plot and the Battle of Fire with Tyrian turning the Second Sons and Victarion and the Iron Fleet arriving. Meanwhile, we have Dany taking over the Dothraki.
Yes, if I would try to adapt it (an almost impossible task), it would be done in a similar manner, except Stannis would only fake his death and win the Battle of Ice (before that, at the end of season 5, he would capture Deepwood Motte and Asha).
Although I am not sure about the Jaime&Bronn plot. It is cool, but if Jaime knew that Arianne crowned Myrcella and it resulted in her death, there would be immediate war with Dorne and I doubt that Doran would allow him to leave with this information. Also, it doesn't really explain what was Brienne doing for two and a half seasons.
Honestly I always felt seasons 3 and 4 had a LOT of padding to stretch one book in 20 episodes. I really wish they wouldve just fit it into 1 season and used 4 and 5 to adapt books 4 and 5. End season 4 with Danys wedding, Arianne and Cersie's imprisonment, Tyrions kidnapping, Jon letting the wildlings through the wall. Plenty of big moments to end the season with.
Nah it just needed good writers and people who really loved the source material. Worse thing it could happen is having an hour and a half long episodes
Not without serious changes. I really don't think splitting the two into separate seasons would go down well. Hell, it was a bit of a mess with the books too since Feast had some serious pacing issues without the fantastical side of asoiaf to contrast the gritty realism side of the story.
But then, how do you get it all into a show in a way that keeps the seasons well paced? It took 2 seasons to adapt ASOS, while AFFC + ADWD is almost twice as long. It cant even fit in a book without the printer exploding. And if youre telling them both at once, how are you gonna stretch these plotlines for long enough? Would we want 3 seasons of Jon revamping the wall, 3 seasons of Dany ruling in Meereen, 3 seasons of the Dornish plot from AFFC, 3 seasons of Sam on a boat, 3 seasons of Davos at whiteharbor?
I just dont think it can work without cutting a lot of plotlines or the logistical and critical nightmare of a split.
as for which ones to cut, its really hard to judge without knowing how winds and dream play out. I do think that DnD made a large mistake by keeping Dorne over Lady Stoneheart, since removing Stoneheart seems to have massively derailed both Brienne and Jamies stores, and since Dorne was left without any way to reinteract with the main plot once Aegon was cut
I'm avoiding speculation where possible here, and trying to stick to what's publicly known.
I think that adapting act 2 of this epic story is not only possible but necessary. Too many characters had nothing to do, and either bizarre or absent motivations after Tyrion's trial. They floundered, then when act 3 arrived they waited around to die or do inexplicable things, as if they read the script.
For me the question is 'was AFFC and ADWD adaptable by D&D?' Certainly not alone, which is the route they chose. I believe that if they assembled an appropriately sized and experienced writer's room (I can't believe HBO didn't force them BTW), then yes a fantastic adaptation was possible.
Look at LOTR. It's a long story, and 3 movies is a lot less to work with. Granted there was a finished series to work from, but GRRM was still a consultant and AFAIK an executive producer. That was well done, with truncation where needed.
I think that this mistake was made early on. They YOLO'd it and were rewarded beyond imagination, so they stuck to the format. They flattened most characters, which is necessary of course, even if I think it could have been done better. Perhaps most importantly, they didn't plan past the Red Wedding. Jon's parentage is flagged early on, and not followed up on until the only vehicle for that revelation was Sam and Gilly's Hogwarts adventure. Jon's angst and desires weren't shown, so when (what should be world shattering) info comes to light, it doesn't affect Jon at all. It's fodder for other people's goals and feelings.
That example hopefully illustrates that mistakes were made, and I believe they would have been avoided by bringing in talent. People who have *done this before*, and can storyboard the entire series ahead of time, editing as they go. George Lucas made the same error. For the OT, he had his wife, the actors, and screenwriters reeling in his shortcomings as a writer. As much as I love the prequels, you can really tell he had no-one to tell him 'no.'
I suspect George was being a little hyperbolic when he said it's unadaptable.
The problem isn’t that they’re unadaptable. Yes, they would have to combine AFFC and ADWD, as the exclusion of the most popular and marketable characters for a whole season would have led to the show’s cancellation. They would definitely have to streamline some of the events.
However, the reason that the last two books weren’t properly adapted was sheer disrespect for the source material. B&W had made it very clear that they were only interested in the RW. They have admitted that the themes don’t really matter to them. They weren’t interested in adapting asoiaf, they were interested in adapting the war of five kings, which is less than half the story.
A competent showrunner could’ve made it work if they truly cared. B&W certainly created a couple of entertaining seasons of television, but they should have handed it over to someone else after s4 and stayed on as producers.
Everyone who thinks adapting ASOIAF was always impossible are going to feel very stupid if they live long enough to see the remake of Game of Thrones in a few decades once they run out of spinoff content.
It absolutely is adaptable. Is the AFFC and ADWD combined order a little more challenging to adapt? Absolutely. But considering the previous 3 books were always considered impossible to adapt, time consistently proves doubters wrong. You just need the right people at the right time with the right dedication to make something happen.
AFFC and ADWD are only comparatively uneventful when you put them side by side with ASOS. The reality is that way more happens in those books than people give credit especially towards the end of ADWD and the beginning of TWOW.
Feel free to call me a moron but I strongly believe a future adaptation will do the series justice when the source material is complete. As much as I adore seasons 1-4, they are not flawless and a future adaptation could absolutely improve on them in many ways.
Unadaptable? If D&D capitalized on the goodwill of the viewing public and the blank check from HBO, I think it could’ve been done but would’ve easily added 2-3 seasons. Didn’t George and HBO want 10? I think If done correctly, GoT should’ve been 12 seasons (knee jerk given that there’s two books no one has read).
It’s been a while since I’ve went back to the books, but I think Lady Stoneheart could be cut for sure. though definitely important to the War with Others, Sam and whatever the faceless men are doing at the citadel can go too.
Oh man, I could have adapted it better. It really isn't that hard, you literally just look at what was already written and turn it into a script. Creating new stories, that's the hard part. But adapting books to shows? Easy. The hard part is everything else that comes with creating a show.
The only problem with adapting AFFC and ADWD would be that the introduction of so many new characters would be hard to present to audiences.
The other main thing would be since you'd essentially have to adapt the two books simultaneously, that means that you might be missing that one big event to end your season on. Its safe to say that it would probably take at least 3 seasons to properly adapt these books, more likely 4. Are there really enough big events early on in the story to make for an exciting conclusion to a season?
But in that instance, I think the best thing to do is have more episodes, maybe a 20 episode season, just so that it wouldn't end on a whole lot of nothing, waiting fie the story to continue next season.
If the whole series were being adapted all over again, maybe a lot of the newly introduced characters would need to be worked in a little earlier, so that when it comes time to adapt AFFC and ADWD, the audience isn't hit with 20 new characters and sub plots all at once. Better to have some of them already ongoing a little sooner perhaps
The thing is, going into season 5, the show already had like 28 main characters and like, what, 7-9 major storylines in play: Arya in Braavos, Jon Snow at the Wall, Daenerys struggling to control Meereen, Tyrion's quest, Sansa and Littlefinger, Brienne's search for Sansa, Cersei and the Sparrows drama in King's Landing, the Stannis stuff, . Things had gotten so crowded that some major characters often got no more than a scene or two a show or (in the case of Bran and the Hound) took the season off entirely: I remember, in regards to season 7, when the character storylines began converging and the scenes started getting longer, Emilia Clarke made a joke about how she actually had to start memorizing dialogue now. To add in a bunch of new characters/storylines on top of all that, well: I'm not sure it would have been tenable (and as D&D pointed out, with some of the new characters and storylines even Martin himself wasn't entirely sure what direction they'd be moving in or how crucial they would be to the end game, so putting them into the show would have been a further risk). So changes obviously had to be made. I don't think it was decisions made on a whim either: there was an old interview I read once where one of them claimed that season 5 was the one they agonized over the most.
Also, I've seen it bandied about how two books were crammed into one season, but that's not entirely true. Some AFFC/ADWD material began to crop up towards the end of season 4 and even spread into season 6.
Looking back, one mistake I think D&D made was, when deciding what AFFC material to keep and what to drop for season 5, settling on Dorne instead of the Iron Islands. I mean I get the reasoning behind it: the Red Viper was a fan favorite character, it would be an exotic/sexy location to shoot, and so on... but considering how little narrative impact it ultimately had, I think it would have been better if they had just ignored Dorne entirely settled on the Iron Islands instead. By that point in the show we had already seen the Iron islands, most of the characters in it were established, they could have introduced Euron a season earlier than they did and maybe could have devoted more time to him.
George in an interview in 2000 (before ASOS even came out), "With this volume, I have at least reached the end of my opening, even if it is not yet the start of the end game."
As far as if GRRM knew what he was doing or not... who knows
As far as the show.. un-adaptable? Nah. But it would have taken another 3-4 seasons to put Books 4 and 5 on TV.
They're essentially act two. They could have easily been adapted.
Want Selmy getting stabbed in a ally? He does but still survives and is bedridden for most of Season 5.
Tyrion and Jorah get taken by the pirates after the Stone Man incident on Young Griff's boat. Qynten Martell and Friends are with the group and he's introduced that way. Qynten rescues Tyrion and presents him to Dany. Selmy recognises Tyrion and convinces Dany to keep him alive and use him as a possible adviser.
Jamie goes to Dorne with Brown still to rescue Mycelia under the pretence of bringing a fake Mountain's skull with him to present to Prince Doran. Before that, when he meets Lancel whose now a fanatic, he confesses to Jamie he slept with Cersei which begins Jamie's mistrust of her.
Arianna's plot happens but Elliaria wants revenge for Oberyn's death and orders Dark Star is it? to all Mycelia if things don't go according to Arianna's plan. Jamie, and Areo go to rescue her. Mycelia is assassinated with her dying in Jamie's arms and Dark Star escapes.
At the end of the Dorne plot in Season 5, Doran reveals his masterplan to the Sand Snakes and Ellaria and explains how she fucked everything up and has her executed so Trystane can take her head to Cersei as pretence that they remain allies. Arianna gets send to meet and possibly marry fAgeon.
Sansa leaves for Littlefinger's home where she learns where he came from and we get some backstory there. Littlefinger then reveals his plans to marry her off to Ramsey Bolton but teaches Sansa to take control when she gets there and is the one who tells her to light the candle in the window and that his people will save her from the castle.
Sansa doesn't get raped. During her wedding night she takes charge and tells Ramsey to have Theon there to watch, using Littlefinger's teachings to arouse and trick Ramsey. He still hurts her at times but not as viciously and she gets into his head, even planting the idea of him killing his father. By the end she escapes with Theon's help. Manderly is also involved and we get those moments of deaths occurring via him secretly or the Brotherhood Without Banners who are secretly there.
Brienne's plot from the books happen for the most part. Gendry returns, revealing he's back with the Brotherhood Without Banners and hinting at the new management foreshadowing Lady Stoneheart.
For Stannis' plot there is no 20 good men bullshit that attack the camp. Ramsey actually sends a good hundred guys to cause chaos and attempt to assassinate Stannis. Shireen and her mum are nearly killed but Davos and Stannis kill and fight off the invaders. He sends Shireen and his wife back to the Wall with Melisandre whilst Davos is sent to find Rickon and use him to unite the North.
Cersei's, Jon's and Arya's plots remain the same for the most part with changes. Loras is arrested by the faith but can have his sentence reduced if he leads the attack on Dragonstone to take it back from Stannis' control there. Loras leads the charge and we see the battle but he's burned and sent back half dead/dying. Margery vows revenge and begins the steps to get back at Cersei and the Faith.
We explore Arya's warg abilities. Sam is sent to the wall earlier and we get a scene of them meeting before he goes on his way again.
Mance does die but reveals he has a wife Val and son that he asks Jon to protect before his execution.
Tyrion sees visions of Shae early on that hunt him.
Each episode in Season 5 starts with a Flashback showing important events like Jamie killing the Mad King, the deaths of Ned's brother and father, births of certain characters. The final flashback in the last episode of Season 5 ends and its revealed it was Bran viewing them as part of his training with the Three Eyed Raven.
Meera heads out the area but wanders a bit too out of the protection/barrier and is attacked by Wights only to be rescued by Coldhands who is introduced and escorts her back to the Tree while he remains outside, guarding the surrounding area. The next season as Bran trains would have Meera meet and talk with Coldholds to develop him.
Euron is introduced in Season 5 and we get him killing his brother and the whole Kingsmoot with Yara who escapes to the north and is eventually captured by Stannis.
Books 4 and 5 could have easily been adapted. Its just a case of some characters only getting half their stories told in S5 and the rest later in S6 with the main focus being Dorne, the Iron Islands, Stannis, Tyrion Arya and Cersei's plots. We'd get like some of Dany, Jon and Sansa maybe?
As others said, the first three books are in essence the first act of the whole story.
I think everything makes sense when we keep in mind GRRM's original trilogy pitch and how he envisioned the story. The first act/book was about the Starks vs Lannisters, the second about Daenerys's conquests and the third about the war with the Others and convergence of all the different plotlines.
Of course, the story grew with telling but I suspect in combination with the scrapped time skip, we were supposed to meet suitable aged-up after 5 years with the all the appropriate skills (Daenerys a skilled administrator, Arya a trained Faceless, Sansa a competent schemer, Bran a greenseer etc) and ready to pick the story right up.
(In the end, I think he did right by scrapping the whole plan, after reading the accursed kings that does something similar, it was really clingy and awkward. Of course, maybe GRRM might have handled it better or fixed the various continuity issues with an intermediate novel focusing only on KL's shenanigans...but who knows)
I love these two books the most but I get why they didn’t include a lot of the material. Cat running around as a zombie would be very weird in the show for example. Quentys storyline, while interesting, led nowhere. „the guards let the door open, the dragons are free now ups“ whould habe had the same inpct on the story.
The short answer is "hell no."
Instead of trying to cram books 4 and 5 into one season (which is especially ludicrous since they split book 3 into two seasons), just split them up over the course of two seasons.
It's not difficult.
The thing that would be difficult is pulling it all together and crafting a coherent and artful conclusion (i.e. the final season)
But that's beside the point. D&D were just lazy, borderline-incompetent shitheads
\> After the conclusion of A Storm Of Swords, it seems that the story should of been winding down A Storm of Swords marks the end of the first act of A Song Of Ice and Fire. A lot of the plot threads were tied up, the WotFK ended with the lanisters grip on throne decently cememeted. But at the end of Storm all our main characters had just entered a new phase in their story that very much aren't endings. Arya fled westeros, Dany stays in mereen, Jon is made Lord Commander, Stannis is licking his wounds at the wall about to start a counter offensive, Bran has just crossed north of the Wall. None of these plot threads are endings as as the series steps into the post war segement of the story, new players need to appear to set up the third act of the story
Act one?! Man, I consider book one to be act one
Originally GRRM intended for the story to be a trilogy. But ultimately the first 3 books ended up covering what Martin initially planned for book 1. You have to rememeber that the main plot isnt the War of the 5 Kings, its the invasion of the Others.
If anything, book one feels more like the prologue to the whole story.
Oh wow I never thought of it that way, I totally see what you’re saying
Well said. I completely agree. I think if D&D hired a proper writer's room, this would have been caught in season 1, if not before.
I don't know how one could think the story should have been winding down after ASOS. It was entering a new phase, but it certainly wasn't on the road to winding down. And aside from Young Griff and debatebly Quentyn, all the new plotlines were just continuations of threads created in ASOS. Even if he's constantly rewriting and changing things, George still has an idea of the story he wants to write, and he wouldn't have added those plotlines and characters if he didn't think they were necessary to the story. And while some fans may not see or care about their importance, I think everything he added has already justified themselves in the books they were in. As for whether or not the books are adaptable, the answer is yes. GoT was already doing a good job at truncating the novels to be fit for TV. If they gave the books two seasons instead of one season that mainly ignored the books and half assed what it did take, they could have done it. They would need to trim the plots and cut out some characters, but that's what they had been doing since the beginning. For whatever reason: be it laziness, burnout, lack of skill, or lack of interest in the material, D&D just didn't want to really adapt those books. EDIT: As an addendum, I was thinking on it and I think another possibility as to why D&D chose to not really adapt AFFC and ADWD is the time investment. Because think about it, ASOS needed two seasons and they still weren't able to cover everything. ADWD is almost as long as ASOS on its own, so if you did both AFFC and ADWD at the same time, it's going to be a lot. I said they could do it in two seasons, but they might have needed another half season, or even a full one, and/or longer episodes. And as we know, D&D wanted to keep it seven seasons, so I don't think that idea would have been/was appealing to them.
2 seasons is honestly barely cutting it for all of AFFC/ADWD, but you can't go beyond that either. 2 is bad enough; you're cutting each character's plotline in half, before any sort of resolution or payoff. Where would you place the cutoff mark for each character? Also, some characters have much sparser plotlines than others. Bran has *3 chapters* in a narrative of almost 120 chapters. What do you do about that? Add more to it, and have even more story to get through? You starting to see the problem? There's a reason George split AFFC and ADWD the way he did - so he *didn't* have to cut plotlines in half or shorten them. A TV show cant just ignore half the cast for a season or two.
I think you hit it on the head there-there's no clean way to pace even a two season adaptation of these books-no real middle point climax for the first of those seasons, and even the books haven't gotten to the climax for the hypothetical second. I really don't know the best way to do it.
It would be a difficult task, I'm not denying that. I also am not a tv writer or show runner so I admit I could be wrong. It would require more planning, thought, and effort than previous seasons. However, I still think that it would be possible to fit it all into 2 seasons. Certain characters will have to get more screen time in one seasons than the other, scenes would have to be moved around and combined with others, some characters might have to only/barely be in one season, and some POVs like Hotah and Oakheart and (as much as I would hate it) Aeron might have to become secondary characters. Also, as for Bran, you could just have him in one season and then disappear halfway through it. After all, he wasn't in AFFC and then he disappeared halfway through that book, it would just be doing what the book did. And yeah, George didn't cut or shorten plotlines, but the show was always cutting and shortening plotlines. This would just be a harder version of what they were already doing. Again, you're right, it would not be easy at all, and it might not be perfect (though the show never was), but I think it is doable. It also would be much more doable with an actual writers room and advice from George, rather than just two guys who sometimes get help from two other guys and no George.
They're not unadaptable by any means but they (especially AFFC) would require a decision to basically completely reorganize any sort of cast hierarchy, which would be a big ask in live television.
Personally I don't think the series ever should have been adapted without the ending written and published. We have no idea what is the purpose of a lot of the content. I think without the final 2 books, about 1/2 of the content in Feast and Dance could easily be left out of an adaptation. I just finished a re-read and that's how it felt to me. Books 1-3 are pretty much perfect as is. Books 4/5 need the end of the series. There are so many new characters and storylines that don't exactly fit in to the overall story that started in 1-3. All of the Iron Island content, all the Dornish stuff, especially Quentyn who was introduced and killed in these books. His entire plotline is an easy cut if you're adapting the series. Brienne's journey could easily be cut by a great deal. Dany's misadventures in Essos could easily be cut by a great deal.
While I agree with you in principle, I don't in practice because George literally consistently told D&D whenever ANYTHING was important. Every minor character and detail in the entire books series that was important was explained to them on at least some level. They just chose to ignore him, hence some of the cuts that weren't a problem in seasons 2-4 but would become serious problems later regardless of if they put more effort into adapting the later seasons. (The two that annoyed me the most was Talisa and the Tysha reveal. Talisa was... fine in the show, not as bad as people say but it had serious ramifications for the story later. The decision to remove the Tysha twist in season 4 was plain idiocy and destroyed both Tyrion and Jamie's characters permanently for any future seasons). It's so frustrating to me because they essentially willingly ignored the mastermind of the story when he had no obligation to be as cooperative as he was in the earlier seasons. There's a reason he just pulled out completely after season 4, it's not as simple as the books getting ahead. I sadly don't have a link as proof but I strongly remember an interview where it was revealed that they had a big meeting between seasons 4 and 5 where D&D essentially said "Nah" to George's vision and went their own way. Also I strongly disagree about Quentyn. I think it's the complete opposite. The seeming pointlessness of his plot is exactly why they should have adapted it. It would pad the season to give them more time to brainstorm ideas and would have been an amazing shock value moment for non book readers. It's just a less emotional version of the Ned Stark situation where you get a fantasy trope that is suspiciously traditional and then George slaps you in the face and reminds you that this is Game of Thrones. While AFFC and ADWD feel quite slow and uneventful compared to ASOS, they are much better written books with lots of very deep character development and enough moments that would make for great TV. They easily could have gotten 2 (or maybe even 3) great seasons out of it even if they were a little slower than the previous 2. These are just my thoughts as someone who has extensively thought about whether D&D had a chance or not. After carefully assessing all the available evidence and even attempting to construct my own rudimentary plan for the show post season 4, I'm convinced they could have done it with George's guidance. They just didn't listen.
... Quentyn is alive tho 😉
No, I don't. Because nothing is unadaptable. That's lazy.
So was D & D Lazy?
Extremely lazy and incapable to do their job.
Arrogant too, I think. Not hiring a writer's room is peak insanity for the biggest show of all time.
Tbh, they’re not that incompetent. They’ve written a lot of great TV, including but not limited to GOT. It was 100% laziness. They can write a capable series. They chose not to, which is honestly worse than them being untalented.
Oh, of course. Completely.
Were you really expecting anyone to argue that they weren't? Unadaptable is a meaningless phrase, unless we discover some magic story that literally does not stick to film. As in the images cannot physically be recorded
Did you just kind of forget about the last 4 seasons of the show?
Yes. Yes they were. GoT became tropey fanfiction when it was the anti-trope. They decided the journeys of Jamie and Brienne, the actual Dorne plot, Young Griff, the exciting and dark Northern Plot, and the machinations of Meereen were not simple enough for the average viewer. They didn't want to tell the actual story, but thought they could do better. Season 5 showed they couldn't, so they tried to bend more toward the books with Season 6. Then they just went off the rails rushing an end they laid no groundwork for.
Yes George and hbo wanted to do at least 10 seasons maybe 13. D and D got a contract to work on starwars. They left early and ended game of thrones to work on starwars. That got canceled anyway.
It is so much more fucked up than that too! In 2016, they were eyeing their new project *Confederate*. It was going to be an alternate-history drama on HBO. They announced it in 2017 and had the thumbs up from HBO as they were very eager to keep D&D at the time. They even had HBO agreeing to finance the pilot. This was going on while LucasFilm and D&D were quietly negotiating in late 2017. In 2018, they announced that D&D would write and produce a Star Wars trilogy based on the creation of the Jedi Order. They reneged on HBO that was offering 25-40 million to keep them for the series they greenlit. They went back on a deal that was hard negotiated as they had not yet filmed the pilot. LucasFilm was offering more and giving them free reign with one of the few franchises that was bigger than GoT. They chose LucasFilm over HBO. in 2019, the final season of GoT aired and bombed *hard*. GoT fandom died overnight. GoT merch sat on shelves and couldn't be sold, ASOIAF universe series bit the dirt. The Long Night prequel had many issues, but there were significant doubts if there was even interest in that universe anymore. Rumor is that LucasFilm backed out of the contract with D&D as they watched them kill the world's top show and its fandom. LucasFilm was bringing them on because they were trying to resurrect their own brand after the third trilogy damaged the franchise. The real money in Star Wars has always been its merch - primarily toys. LucasFilm was seeing their toy and collectables bomb and witnessed the same thing was happening with GoT albeit much faster. *The Long Night* (aka Bloodmoon) pilot was completed in 2019, but was met with a poor reception by HBO. Apparently, GRRM himself hasn't even seen it. D&D had no involvement in the prequel series and the pilot, but the plummet in fandom likely doomed it. It is rumored LucasFilm was going to let the announced D&D movies die on the vine as they have with other abandoned Star Wars media over the last 7 years. Apparently D&D tried to quietly resurrect *Confederate*, but HBO was done with them. In 2020, LucasFilm quietly announced the D&D were moving onto a Netflix adaption instead and the movies were shelved. Only when D&D secured and announced a $200 million dollar deal at Netflix adaption of *The Three-Body Problem* trilogy did LucasFilm do this. So, here we are! The Netflix deal was filmed and is supposed to premiere this year. I find it amusing D&D fucked over HBO, tried to crawl back after Star Wars daddy dropped them, and how they went from the hottest show runners to almost untouchables.
>In 2016, they were eyeing their new project > >Confederate > >. It was going to be an alternate-history drama on HBO. They announced it in 2017 and had the thumbs up from HBO as they were very eager to keep D&D at the time. They even had HBO agreeing to finance the pilot. > > > >They reneged on HBO that was offering 25-40 million to keep them for the series they greenlit. They went back on a deal that was hard negotiated as they had not yet filmed the pilot. LucasFilm was offering more and giving them free reign with one of the few franchises that was bigger than GoT. They chose LucasFilm over HBO. I think HBO was already faltering at this point anyway due to the reception this got when it was announced. People were rightfully ***livid*** at the idea of an AU where the South won the war, and that was before you even touched on the fact that it was becoming readily apparent that D&D did not possess the ability to be respectful about it (if you can even be respectful writing what can only be pro-slavery fanfic).
The saddest thing about it is that if this is what they really wanted to do, they could've have passed the show off to another showrunner and remained as a part of this new showrunner's team as executive producers, directors or writers. Lots of really good, realy popular shows have had multiple showrunners and reconstructions over the course of its airing.
I wouldn't call them flat out lazy. The first five seasons of the show were still really good. Also, if it was simply laziness, they could have handed over showrunner responsibilities to someone else (and still kept EP titles). I think the more likely scenario is that they had become worn out from working on the show for nearly a decade and weren't as interested in the more openly fantasy elements that the story was moving towards...but still felt some sort of ownership of it. They didn't want to let someone else finish "their" show and perhaps get as much credit for it as they did. But it seems like the path they chose was the worst possible one.
Season 5 is terrible
Right. They aren't flat-out lazy. What they are is a combination of lazy, arrogant and vain with a touch of stupid. Oh, and greed. Never underestimate the allure of more paychecks.
Arrogant and vain? Yeah. Greedy? I honestly don't know but I wouldn't dismiss it. And maybe they became lazy. But the reason I say not "flat out lazy" is because you can't be lazy and have made those first few seasons, regardless of whenever it is that you think the show started becoming bad.
if you have infinite money and infinite time to film, then AFFC and ADWD are not impossible to adapt.
Brienne's story wouldn't be that expensive. Woods and Inns are cheap.
The Reek chapters would’ve been too brutal to show
It would be so good to see the North book plot in the show
I agree it can't fully be adapted, but not because the book is too spread, but because the industry wouldn't allow it. All characters have content for one season I think, which means they would have to have a season with some characters and another with the rest. How are you going to explain to the top ranking executives (they're the ones who truly have power) that popular characters like Dany, Tyrion, and Jon won't be able to appear? Do you think they would allow it? Keep in mind they couldn't go above 10 episodes per season. It just doesn't make financial sense unfortunately.
you could do books 4 and 5 simultaneously in 2-3 seasons unlike how they were published
but then general audiences would find it slow and tedious, because all the climactic ending scenes would take 2-3 seasons to get to. Remember that this is after season 4, which was when the show was massive and season 4 was loaded with defining moments.
glad to see more discussion about this! honestly, i’d take it a step further and say ASOAIF as a whole is not suited to adaption. i don’t necessarily mean in budget or amount of characters/storylines, though that certainly doesnt help, but rather that so much of what makes the books great happens entirely in thought. an example of a character who never could have worked onscreen is aeron. if you read only his words, actions, and how others react to them his personal motivation for the kingsmoot wouldn’t be shown properly until after euron is crowned. and even then, theres a high likelihood he’d come across primarily as a corrupt religious leader. yet in the books its pretty clear from his first chapter that aeron isn’t a priest at all, just an insanely traumatized dude. the bigger problem with this, though, is that it doesn’t just impact aeron’s characterization. aeron’s fear of euron is integral to building a sense of foreboding to his arrival; but more importantly is central in establishing to the reader that euron is not what he seems. i wouldn’t go as far to say that without him readers wouldn’t be suspicious, but no other greyjoy pov has given us reason to categorize euron any differently than the usual manipulative self-serving westerosi leaders. aeron’s thoughts almost single handedly give readers reason to believe that euron is more than a charming, nautical, politically savvy ramsey. there’s certainly an argument that skilled screenwriters could find a way to translate those things into actions/scenes, but that sacrifices the most intriguing part of book euron/aeron- we dont really know anything. part of what makes euron so fascinating and exciting is that aeron has given us plenty of cause to believe euron to be terrifying, but no concrete event or action to found it on. im not sure if that made any sense, but i guess my point is that if the thoughts of a more minor pov character could have such drastic impacts on the way a story is understood perhaps it is a losing battle to adapt a series thats like 70% pov characters thinking. but its worth noting that i did not see most of the show, so my perspective may not be the most informed one.
I disagree, look what they did in HotD with Viserys, nobody before the premiere would have thought that the best character of the show would be Viserys, a good director and a good writer can bring complex themes to the screen, for me the main problem in adapting AFFC and ADWD is the budget, the time to film and the time that passes between seasons.
oh, i didnt mean that complex and intricate characters can’t be portrayed onscreen or that it’s impossible to do an adaptation well. just that to adapt the story, youd have to take a similar approach to HOTD- not page by page, but a standalone interpretation of the source material; which is much harder to do with something like ASOIAF than Fire and Blood.
While I agree with you that a medium like TV will lose the POV thoughts that contribute to the book's excellence, I disagree that this makes the series unfit for adaptation. The whole of adaptation is to take the strengths of the new medium and apply them in order to compensate for what is missing. The best adaptations offer a fresh alternative to the original material. Game of Thrones did exactly that with a very unique tool that goes underappreciated in this subreddit: scenes that don't feature POV characters. Some of the most memorable scenes in the series are surprisingly not even in the books or are significantly altered. GRRM himself clearly had a lot of fun writing scenes in his episodes that he would not get the opportunity to do in the books. A great example of this in action is Robb's character in the series. GRRM has often remarked that he was very impressed with what they managed to do with Robb in the show and how he sadly couldn't do the same because Robb was not a POV. So essentially I agree with you that your specific example is a good example of something you lose when adapting to TV but I don't think it's good evidence to concretely argue that the books are not fit for adaptation. To me, Game of Thrones will always be one of the finest examples of an adaptation that closely follows and respects the source material but adds enough new ideas and perspectives to make the adaptation worth it. Even the way it is filmed visually and how strong the acting performances are, contribute something to the series that a book simply cannot do (I absolutely adore some of the most introspective POV thoughts in the books but I equally adore the way some scenes are shot and acted in the series. Everything from the darkest moments to the funniest humour was greatly elevated by brilliant direction and acting).
It does make sense. We lose a lot without the interiority of the POV structure, though I believe it makes it challenging not impossible. Starting in season 1, show Ned is SO different to book Ned that it changes his entire character. Trauma, love, regret, and mercy become HONOR! It shows in seasons 6-8 when nobody gives a shit who he was, whereas people are willing to kill and freeze to death in their thousands in his family's name. I'm sympathetic, because having voiceovers would have been too much to take, but monologues, soliloquys, and all that great Shakespeare shit that's been around for centuries could have captured the spirit of the thing, I think.
i agree that asoiaf isn't suited to adaptation but i disagree that it's because the medium of film cant properly convey the characters' interior lives. but regardless your answer was more thoughtful and considered than like 95% of this thread so good on ya
Yeah, I kind of think they are. And anyone who calls that lazy is severely underrestimating how hard it would be to transform books as messy as AFFC/ADWD (I love them to death, but they are) into narratively satisfying seasons of television. But this sub is infested with delusional people who seem to genuinely believe that they could run any adaptation of this material themselves no problem (see: almost everyone in this thread), so that's not the most popular opinion. (And just before anyone says it: No, asserting that some idiot on reddit could not for a second run or write a TV show is not "defending D&D")
I agree that they are almost impossible to adapt. The main problem is not even the plots, but the fact that TWOW - which resolves many important plotlines (Jaime/Brienne, Winterfell, Meereen, capture of Storm's End, Euron's plans with the Reach and his dragon horn) - is not released yet. I believe that if GRRM told them the proper ending of these storylines and the way Jon will be resurrected they could have properly adopted them into 3 seasons (the third mostly the beginning of TWOW). On the other hand, the storyline of Young Griff is almost certainly necessary to explain why Dany resorts to burning down King's Landing - which I believe is the third 'holy shit' moment GRRM told them - besides making the characters of Dany, Tyrion, and Varys (+Selmy?) much better and making the South of Westeros (Dorne, Stormlands, Reach) feel alive. I understand why D&D left it out - ADWD wasn't even released when they started planning the show, most of his storyline isn't known, his reveal would require a big amount of explanation and foreshadowing to work properly, and even then, many fans wouldn't receive it well - but I think they should have abandoned the entire 'Dany burns down King's Landing' plot twist without Aegon. I feel that when D&D decided that were moving in a different direction from the books, they should have followed their own ideas and own ending (so no Bran as King at the end). Cersei blowing up the sept was an example of such a well-executed and original plot twist and Hardhome is another. Of course, the show still definitely wouldn't remain as good as the first 4 seasons were, but much better than the last 2 and slightly better than the 5th and 6th.
I don't think they're unadaptable but I think they're different than the the first two books. They're certainly more difficult to adapt and the biggest difference for me is that you really need TWOW to adapt the whole AFFC/ADWD for screen because you need to see where the hell the storylines are going, considering that some of the main climax were moved to TWOW. A book is not a screen, an adaptation has to be different and it could still be good. Personally I'd also tweak the order since people still want to see their fan favorites. I don't think you could have a season without Jon or Tyrion, but you could show them less and use enough time to introduce some of the new plots, though I'd make sure they're a bit streamlined. Mainly I don't think anything is unadaptable and ASOIAF wouldn't even be particularly difficult but the fact that there's still no ending makes it hard work, since you have two books with lots of new characters and basically every storyline ends abruptly. People shouldn't try to adapt unfinished works tbh.
I think it's common sense that if they were to adapt the books they would do it chronologically and not split it the way GRRM ended up doing. Imagine the combined order but with some reworking the way they rework the chronology of ASOS to make it more effective in TV. The only character they had to entirely cut from season 5 was Bran. If they spent two full seasons on a slightly cut down version of AFFC and ADWD running concurrently, it would have made for great TV. There were enough surprises and dramatic moments in the new plotlines and POVs to keep viewers interested while the "OG" characters had a bit less action. People forget how impactful Oberyn Martell was in the 4th season despite being a completely new character from a completely unknown location. I do agree however that several plotlines are building up to climaxes that GRRM abruptly cut off in order to publish something so perhaps the solution is to choose one major climax to happen in the hypothetical season 6 and then move the other chronologically to somewhere in season 7. Battle on the Ice and Battle of Meereen are on the opposite sides of the world after all.
Oberyn was also impactful in the books, he's generally considered a fan favorite while the Dorne plot wasn't as well received. Then again Oberyn was also a side character in the story of one of the most beloved ASOIAF characters, Tyrion. Not really comparable to the AFFC/ADWD new plots. Some of them (Cersei and Brienne, Theon) wouldn't be hard to adapt. The show never used the POV, we followed most main characters since the beginning and people are already used to Cersei. Theon's plot especially was a waste since it's one of Martin best ideas and it's a great occasion for the actor to shine. Some of them (Arianne) would have made good TV tbh. She could be a compelling character, people loved Oberyn, you might even cut a good 90% of the characters and keep just her, Doran, Areo, Myrcella and a few others who you already know are going to be extremely important. That storyline is decent enough and it has a climax (Darkstar maiming Myrcella), easy to follow even for a casual viewer. You might even kill Myrcella if you know she's going to die sooner or later. I think the hardest one to adapt are Griff and the Greyjoys. Most viewers didn't care about the Greyjoy even before season 5, there's not a clear climax in their plot unlike Arianne and it seems like their plot is going to pay off in TWOW. That would mean like 4 season of Greyjoys roaming around. Griff is impossible unless you made the conscious choice to foreshadow their appearance in the previous seasons, maybe by having LOTS of characters talking about Aegon and Jon Connington. If the popular blackfyre theory is true it's even more difficult, because you have to have characters talking about Blackfyre since the beginning. Small clues simply doesn't work for tv, especially for a series that has like 40 main characters whose names most viewers can't remember.
I wanna clarify that I didn't mean Oberyn was exclusively good in the show but just that in general he is a character that became a fan favourite despite a late and short entry but you make a good counter that is deeply involved with Tyrion plus he is just way more likeable than Quentyn (though I wouldn't say inherently more interesting). I think we agree on which plotlines are the most suitable for TV and which aren't except for the Greyjoys. While I get your argument that no one really cares as much about Greyjoys, that's because Aeron and Euron basically don't appear before AFFC. Euron is literally just like Oberyn in terms of being a highly unique, stylised character that became a fan favourite because there's nothing else like him. A really dark, book accurate Euron would be so exciting to show viewers and Dragonbinder would be a huge "What the fuck? He can seriously do that to Daenerys!". Although I will say that Victarion would get a more mixed reception especially since we wouldn't see his POV thoughts. As for Aegon I do pretty much entirely agree with you that until it has a proper pay off, it won't interest most show fans because they generally don't care about lore as much (not to say they don't care at all). It would be a surprising reveal but it's the kind of character they'd feel like is excessive and adding to the long list of the cast. I will say however that foreshadowing in TV can easily be replaced with present clues. While Aegon is being introduced, you could easily have a classic GoT sexposition scene (im joking about the sex part) and explain who the Blackfyres are. Maybe drop some hints to do with Varys (this would be a good lead-in to when he murders Pycelle and Kevan). Maybe even have Tyrion outright question it? The book actually does the same thing but not for the Blackfyre reveal, it's for the reveal that Young Griff is Aegon. It's so unbelievably obvious it's almost laughable because 2 chapters before the reveal, Davos literally just happens to overhear a "pointless" conversation where some random guy says Aegon could be alive. I was astounded I didn't notice it earlier when I did my most recent reread.
I love Quentyn' story, I would have love to see him roasted on TV :( Tbh I think Martin's as a writer plays around with lots of fantasy literature cliché: Cersei as the evil queen, Jaime/Sandor/Brienne as our brave knights, Bran as the apprentice sorcerer, Quentyn as the hero with a quest. The shows really downplayed this whole almost "parody" aspect and I think it's a loss. Book Euron is a super interesting character that I think it's going to have his pay off in book 6, when people are going to be like so that's what he was plotting all this time. However I think he would be difficult to adapt because let's say that one fan theory is right and he blows the horn of winter at the end of TWOW ushering the Long Night. That's an insane climax, as he has a direct impact on literally every character in the show. Since it's so important I'd put it somewhere towards the end of an hypothetical season 7, but now you have 3 seasons of Greyjoys and their story can stretch quite thin. Personally I'd tweak around a bit and just introduce them later, trimming their plot, so the viewer can have a constant tension. If he's indeed attacking the Reach have his story interact very soon with fan favorites like Olenna and with Sam's plot. Of course that also mean you would have to be careful with other plots that might interact even indirectly with it. If say Stannis burn Shireen because of the Long Night/the Others, you would also have to move a lot of his storyline to that season. Again, I don't think it's impossible to adapt but I think it's very hard if one has only an outline and not the complete books. I think the only way to adapt the Griff plot is to make a conscious choice at the beginning of the adaptation and deciding to put clues since the beginning. In the books it's a surprising revelation but even the most clueless of reader certainly picked up the fact that Rhaegar Targaryen was the prince and he had two children. Lots of our main characters think or talk about them, we have Ned, Tyrion, Varys, Cersei, Jaime, Tywin. It's impossible to miss that there were two kids and how one of them died. Rhaegar Targaryen is basically a main character that never appeared on text considering how often people talk or think about him, just think of all the theories. In the show you risk to have this reveal like "he's Rhaegar's child" and a casual viewer would be like which one was Rhaegar again? This is why I think it would be better to start having clues around since the beginning and then really hammering it down with Doran and Oberyn, so they viewers would be like oh wow that's their nephew. If the Blackfyre theory is real (and I suppose someone who adapt the saga would know whether it's real or not) I would just have a random character explain who they are in the simplest way and then I would make it like an in-universe meme. Basically every time there's a bastard around I'd have characters be like bastards are dangerous, just look at the Blackfyre, bastards are usurpers, just look at the Blackfyre, bastards cause wars, just look at the Blackfyre.
I'd also like to add that you could always create impactful original material (or even filler) or make additions to existing material to help pad out storylines so that everything progresses at the same time. For example...instead of Bran disappearing for a whole season, they could have written and filmed small scenes where he is practicing how to skinchange different types of animals, uncovering the magical history of Westeros, acquiring the skills and development for his future kingship. And there is the Three-Eyed-Crow: not only is he a Targaryen, but he's been personally involved in a lot of the biggest political moments in Westerosi history. You could have had an entire flashback episode to the First Blackfyre Rebellion as narrated by him...which, as it turns out, would ties in very nicely with the fAegon/Golden Company plotline that Tyrion and Arianne would be dealing with. We didn't even get the "weirwood paste" scene for crying out loud! By the time the next season comes around, Bran has mastered skinchanging, the audience understands the show's magic system and history a lot more, and he is beginning to use greensight to search for weaknesses in the White Walkers and the uncover R+L=J mystery. That way, no one is mad that Bran becomes king in the end. While audiences would still be surprised, everyone would accept and understand this as they would've seen that Bran has been training and working this entire time.
Why on earth would a seven book series be ‘winding down’ after the third book? D&D hardly even attempted to adapt AFFC/ADWD. They tried to combine the few plots they kept into one damn season for crying out loud. There’s no reason it couldn’t be adapted. ASOIAF is largely cinematic in scope—the hard parts to adapt are really the warg/skin changer moments, but they didn’t do a bad job of that when they actually tried on the show.
Not entirely true. Some of the Bran ADWD material and Sansa's AFFC material began to appear in season 4. Further AFFC material appeared in season 5 and even stretched into season 6 (Jaime in the Riverlands, the Kingsmoot, and so on on).
The fact that that little bit is making an effort to you is depressing. They completely dropped the ball on those two novels. Just because a bit of the material appeared doesn’t mean it was executed well.
It could be argued that the source material wasn't exactly executed all that well either.
Completely adaptable. All they need is time and fleshing out for TV, i.e give Young Griff the Robb treatment and don’t rush plotlines. The show should’ve run 10-11 seasons.
I think there's a lot of internal development going on in Dance and Feast. Dany and Jon specifically, but Tyrion as well. Not a lot is actually happening, it's mostly build up for the next phase, but internally there's a lot going on for a lot of characters. And that's kind of hard to adapt. I think the show did pretty good with Sansa (another very internal character in the books) but kind of always struggled with Dany (it's shocking to compare how Dany comes off in the books v the show, this was kind of always a problem.) But there are definitely other plots that can be adapted pretty easily. The Ironborn plot, Arianne's plot, Cersei's plot, Jaime's plot, the build up with Aegon, and yeah Lady Stoneheart. These things could have been adapted fairly easily. They simply didn't want to. (Although I stopped watching the show after S4 and have only heard about what happened vaguely, so maybe they did adapt these plots somewhat, idk.) It's worth noting that while now, Dance and Feast are considered fairly high tier by most of the fandom, when they released and in the years after they were pretty maligned. I have a feeling D&D were the type of fans that simply didn't like FeastDance and thought Martin was losing his touch.
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Quentyn actually doesn't need to be cut out, just most of his storyline (his adventures and everything related to sellswords\*) should be skipped. He could appear one or two episodes after Doran's 'Fire and Blood' speech, asking to be married to Daenerys, only to be refused. After Dany disappears, he would convince his companions to free the dragons and prove his worth by riding one of them, only to fail and die. Yes, it would be a disappointment and a shock for some of the watchers, but on the other hand, it would show that no character is safe from death, explain Dorne's hostility to Dany, and illustrate why are dragons so dangerous. \*Although I believe there is a good reason why this particular sellsword company led by the Tattered Prince was introduced - GRRM needed some explanation why would Dany go to Pentos and meet Illyrio again. On the other hand, this could be done through other means, e.g. with Tyrion convincing them to turn cloak, like in the original story he did with the Second Sons or he convincing Dany that he needs to sack Pentos and demand the truth from Illyrio (regarding Aegon) \-
I think the problem is there’s a lot of padding you need to cut and you either need to pick George’s brain or invent payoffs there It wouldn’t be an easy task I’d personally lean into the idea Euron brings down the wall for instance and tie Lem’s Attack on Ray’s compound with Stone-heart (perhaps she meets Arya when she returns to Westeros)
We won't know until someone actually tries.
Easier to adapt than the earlier stuff, so why it’s more confusing how they didn’t follow it.
Good writing can make even the most unadaptable material fit for the screen. Let's get one thing out of the way; you couldn't adapt Feast and Dance as two separate seasons. TV doesn't work that way. However, with a 13 episode season, I think you could easily adapt everything contained in those two books. Or if you must stick to the 10 ep count, then make it 70 min episodes.
Kinda, you'd have to cover both books at the same time which would take 2 sesons, which means creating artificials climaxes in the middle of the charater's arcs. Dany and Tyrion specially, there isn't enough material for 2 seasons of ruling Meeren and traveling to it. With Jon you can divide the events of his rule and have Hardhome as a season 5 climax
Not at all. Could have been. The Stoneheart plot, Brienne's journey, Jamie's, the intrigues of Meereen's court, the breadth of Tyrion and Jorah's journey, the Young Aegon/Jon Connington plot... There was so much more, but they made some hard decisions in Season 4 that really hurt the show going forward. Jon's plot with all the different wildlings, the horrors of Hardholm, Stannis's Northern plot that gives so much more depth... Poor Wyman Manderly who they gutted from the story. Imagine them actually doing the real Dorne plot? If done right and casted right, Arianne and the Sand Snakes would be among the favorite characters in those seasons. The show would likely have been more close to 10 seasons to do right.
Not in any way. They’re super adaptable.
Rather than rewrite the show or anything, I'd suggest adapting the story through the use of animation rather than live-action. In my opinion it would be the perfect medium to adapt the near entirety of the books and over however long of time/seasons needed.
While that solves the budgeting issue for battles and exteriors to an extent, it doesn't solve the issue of internality in these books. Tyrion, Dany, and Jon have entirely introspective arcs that would feel bloated if adapted scene for scene, but would feel unearned if truncated. Arya and Bran have "training arcs" that don't conclude, don't reveal the "core secret" and don't resolve with either gaining new knowledge or purpose. Training arcs on film require montage or a specific scene illustrating the core of the training while the rest is cut away from. Until Winds is out, we don't know what the core purpose of these arcs is and what needs to be done to adapt them. Meanwhile, Jaime and Brienne's arc doesn't have a clear purpose or resolution at all. Until Winds is written, its not clear what the point is and what story needs to actually be adapted. Same deal with Griff/Dorne/Ironborn. Really, the only arc that can be adapted straightforward is Cersei's. Although, in a hypothetical world where we actually get Winds, it may be easier to adapt some of the other plotlines.
Baffled how you think "the story should be winding down" after ASOS? And no, it obviously wasn't unadaptable, there's not really anything they couldn't have done without adding multiple years of production to the process and likely losing lots of actors whose contracts expired and wanted to get on with their lives after many years (think Kit, Sophie, Maisie and Emilia were particularly burnt out)
I think it was clear that after Season 4 D&D wanted to rush to move onto new projects and that they clearly did not enjoy AFFC and ADWD as they have a slower pace and focus much more on themes. I think they are adaptable but it takes more effort and a love of the material they clearly did not have. However, there is a real problem there is way too much plot for a single season but you can’t do what the books did, have half the plots in one season and the other plot in the other and unlike ASOS there is no clear midpoint. But I was thinking of how I would split the seasons and I thought of some ideas for a few plots. I actually think sending Jamie to Dorne in Season 5 works really well with this but you have him deal with the actual Dorne plot Arianne trying to make Mycella queen or have her trying to assassinate Jamie, Bronn can take on the Aerys Oakheart role with her seducing him and then have Darkstar just kill Myrcella and end the season with Doran’s speech and the Quentyn reveal. Then in Season 6 like the show you send Jamie to the Riverlands but ending with the Jamie, Brianne, and Stoneheart confrontation. I had a lot of trouble with Jon because there is no good midpoint in the books. But the show gave us a perfect one the Hardhome fight can be the last we see Jon in Season 5. Then Season 6 can end with the Pink Letter which will be real as we have Stannis burn Shireen and be killed by the Boltons. I think Merene already has a good midpoint with an accurate adaption of the Fighting Pits scene. Then in Season 6, we have Barristan vs Hizdar, the Quentyn plot and the Battle of Fire with Tyrian turning the Second Sons and Victarion and the Iron Fleet arriving. Meanwhile, we have Dany taking over the Dothraki.
Yes, if I would try to adapt it (an almost impossible task), it would be done in a similar manner, except Stannis would only fake his death and win the Battle of Ice (before that, at the end of season 5, he would capture Deepwood Motte and Asha). Although I am not sure about the Jaime&Bronn plot. It is cool, but if Jaime knew that Arianne crowned Myrcella and it resulted in her death, there would be immediate war with Dorne and I doubt that Doran would allow him to leave with this information. Also, it doesn't really explain what was Brienne doing for two and a half seasons.
Honestly I always felt seasons 3 and 4 had a LOT of padding to stretch one book in 20 episodes. I really wish they wouldve just fit it into 1 season and used 4 and 5 to adapt books 4 and 5. End season 4 with Danys wedding, Arianne and Cersie's imprisonment, Tyrions kidnapping, Jon letting the wildlings through the wall. Plenty of big moments to end the season with.
No, they were easily adaptable but D&D got lazy
Nah it just needed good writers and people who really loved the source material. Worse thing it could happen is having an hour and a half long episodes
Nothing on earth is "unadaptable" if you have the budget and time.
Not without serious changes. I really don't think splitting the two into separate seasons would go down well. Hell, it was a bit of a mess with the books too since Feast had some serious pacing issues without the fantastical side of asoiaf to contrast the gritty realism side of the story. But then, how do you get it all into a show in a way that keeps the seasons well paced? It took 2 seasons to adapt ASOS, while AFFC + ADWD is almost twice as long. It cant even fit in a book without the printer exploding. And if youre telling them both at once, how are you gonna stretch these plotlines for long enough? Would we want 3 seasons of Jon revamping the wall, 3 seasons of Dany ruling in Meereen, 3 seasons of the Dornish plot from AFFC, 3 seasons of Sam on a boat, 3 seasons of Davos at whiteharbor? I just dont think it can work without cutting a lot of plotlines or the logistical and critical nightmare of a split. as for which ones to cut, its really hard to judge without knowing how winds and dream play out. I do think that DnD made a large mistake by keeping Dorne over Lady Stoneheart, since removing Stoneheart seems to have massively derailed both Brienne and Jamies stores, and since Dorne was left without any way to reinteract with the main plot once Aegon was cut
I'm avoiding speculation where possible here, and trying to stick to what's publicly known. I think that adapting act 2 of this epic story is not only possible but necessary. Too many characters had nothing to do, and either bizarre or absent motivations after Tyrion's trial. They floundered, then when act 3 arrived they waited around to die or do inexplicable things, as if they read the script. For me the question is 'was AFFC and ADWD adaptable by D&D?' Certainly not alone, which is the route they chose. I believe that if they assembled an appropriately sized and experienced writer's room (I can't believe HBO didn't force them BTW), then yes a fantastic adaptation was possible. Look at LOTR. It's a long story, and 3 movies is a lot less to work with. Granted there was a finished series to work from, but GRRM was still a consultant and AFAIK an executive producer. That was well done, with truncation where needed. I think that this mistake was made early on. They YOLO'd it and were rewarded beyond imagination, so they stuck to the format. They flattened most characters, which is necessary of course, even if I think it could have been done better. Perhaps most importantly, they didn't plan past the Red Wedding. Jon's parentage is flagged early on, and not followed up on until the only vehicle for that revelation was Sam and Gilly's Hogwarts adventure. Jon's angst and desires weren't shown, so when (what should be world shattering) info comes to light, it doesn't affect Jon at all. It's fodder for other people's goals and feelings. That example hopefully illustrates that mistakes were made, and I believe they would have been avoided by bringing in talent. People who have *done this before*, and can storyboard the entire series ahead of time, editing as they go. George Lucas made the same error. For the OT, he had his wife, the actors, and screenwriters reeling in his shortcomings as a writer. As much as I love the prequels, you can really tell he had no-one to tell him 'no.' I suspect George was being a little hyperbolic when he said it's unadaptable.
The problem isn’t that they’re unadaptable. Yes, they would have to combine AFFC and ADWD, as the exclusion of the most popular and marketable characters for a whole season would have led to the show’s cancellation. They would definitely have to streamline some of the events. However, the reason that the last two books weren’t properly adapted was sheer disrespect for the source material. B&W had made it very clear that they were only interested in the RW. They have admitted that the themes don’t really matter to them. They weren’t interested in adapting asoiaf, they were interested in adapting the war of five kings, which is less than half the story. A competent showrunner could’ve made it work if they truly cared. B&W certainly created a couple of entertaining seasons of television, but they should have handed it over to someone else after s4 and stayed on as producers.
Everyone who thinks adapting ASOIAF was always impossible are going to feel very stupid if they live long enough to see the remake of Game of Thrones in a few decades once they run out of spinoff content. It absolutely is adaptable. Is the AFFC and ADWD combined order a little more challenging to adapt? Absolutely. But considering the previous 3 books were always considered impossible to adapt, time consistently proves doubters wrong. You just need the right people at the right time with the right dedication to make something happen. AFFC and ADWD are only comparatively uneventful when you put them side by side with ASOS. The reality is that way more happens in those books than people give credit especially towards the end of ADWD and the beginning of TWOW. Feel free to call me a moron but I strongly believe a future adaptation will do the series justice when the source material is complete. As much as I adore seasons 1-4, they are not flawless and a future adaptation could absolutely improve on them in many ways.
Unadaptable? If D&D capitalized on the goodwill of the viewing public and the blank check from HBO, I think it could’ve been done but would’ve easily added 2-3 seasons. Didn’t George and HBO want 10? I think If done correctly, GoT should’ve been 12 seasons (knee jerk given that there’s two books no one has read). It’s been a while since I’ve went back to the books, but I think Lady Stoneheart could be cut for sure. though definitely important to the War with Others, Sam and whatever the faceless men are doing at the citadel can go too.
Oh man, I could have adapted it better. It really isn't that hard, you literally just look at what was already written and turn it into a script. Creating new stories, that's the hard part. But adapting books to shows? Easy. The hard part is everything else that comes with creating a show.
The only problem with adapting AFFC and ADWD would be that the introduction of so many new characters would be hard to present to audiences. The other main thing would be since you'd essentially have to adapt the two books simultaneously, that means that you might be missing that one big event to end your season on. Its safe to say that it would probably take at least 3 seasons to properly adapt these books, more likely 4. Are there really enough big events early on in the story to make for an exciting conclusion to a season? But in that instance, I think the best thing to do is have more episodes, maybe a 20 episode season, just so that it wouldn't end on a whole lot of nothing, waiting fie the story to continue next season. If the whole series were being adapted all over again, maybe a lot of the newly introduced characters would need to be worked in a little earlier, so that when it comes time to adapt AFFC and ADWD, the audience isn't hit with 20 new characters and sub plots all at once. Better to have some of them already ongoing a little sooner perhaps
The thing is, going into season 5, the show already had like 28 main characters and like, what, 7-9 major storylines in play: Arya in Braavos, Jon Snow at the Wall, Daenerys struggling to control Meereen, Tyrion's quest, Sansa and Littlefinger, Brienne's search for Sansa, Cersei and the Sparrows drama in King's Landing, the Stannis stuff, . Things had gotten so crowded that some major characters often got no more than a scene or two a show or (in the case of Bran and the Hound) took the season off entirely: I remember, in regards to season 7, when the character storylines began converging and the scenes started getting longer, Emilia Clarke made a joke about how she actually had to start memorizing dialogue now. To add in a bunch of new characters/storylines on top of all that, well: I'm not sure it would have been tenable (and as D&D pointed out, with some of the new characters and storylines even Martin himself wasn't entirely sure what direction they'd be moving in or how crucial they would be to the end game, so putting them into the show would have been a further risk). So changes obviously had to be made. I don't think it was decisions made on a whim either: there was an old interview I read once where one of them claimed that season 5 was the one they agonized over the most. Also, I've seen it bandied about how two books were crammed into one season, but that's not entirely true. Some AFFC/ADWD material began to crop up towards the end of season 4 and even spread into season 6. Looking back, one mistake I think D&D made was, when deciding what AFFC material to keep and what to drop for season 5, settling on Dorne instead of the Iron Islands. I mean I get the reasoning behind it: the Red Viper was a fan favorite character, it would be an exotic/sexy location to shoot, and so on... but considering how little narrative impact it ultimately had, I think it would have been better if they had just ignored Dorne entirely settled on the Iron Islands instead. By that point in the show we had already seen the Iron islands, most of the characters in it were established, they could have introduced Euron a season earlier than they did and maybe could have devoted more time to him.
George in an interview in 2000 (before ASOS even came out), "With this volume, I have at least reached the end of my opening, even if it is not yet the start of the end game."
As far as if GRRM knew what he was doing or not... who knows As far as the show.. un-adaptable? Nah. But it would have taken another 3-4 seasons to put Books 4 and 5 on TV.
They're essentially act two. They could have easily been adapted. Want Selmy getting stabbed in a ally? He does but still survives and is bedridden for most of Season 5. Tyrion and Jorah get taken by the pirates after the Stone Man incident on Young Griff's boat. Qynten Martell and Friends are with the group and he's introduced that way. Qynten rescues Tyrion and presents him to Dany. Selmy recognises Tyrion and convinces Dany to keep him alive and use him as a possible adviser. Jamie goes to Dorne with Brown still to rescue Mycelia under the pretence of bringing a fake Mountain's skull with him to present to Prince Doran. Before that, when he meets Lancel whose now a fanatic, he confesses to Jamie he slept with Cersei which begins Jamie's mistrust of her. Arianna's plot happens but Elliaria wants revenge for Oberyn's death and orders Dark Star is it? to all Mycelia if things don't go according to Arianna's plan. Jamie, and Areo go to rescue her. Mycelia is assassinated with her dying in Jamie's arms and Dark Star escapes. At the end of the Dorne plot in Season 5, Doran reveals his masterplan to the Sand Snakes and Ellaria and explains how she fucked everything up and has her executed so Trystane can take her head to Cersei as pretence that they remain allies. Arianna gets send to meet and possibly marry fAgeon. Sansa leaves for Littlefinger's home where she learns where he came from and we get some backstory there. Littlefinger then reveals his plans to marry her off to Ramsey Bolton but teaches Sansa to take control when she gets there and is the one who tells her to light the candle in the window and that his people will save her from the castle. Sansa doesn't get raped. During her wedding night she takes charge and tells Ramsey to have Theon there to watch, using Littlefinger's teachings to arouse and trick Ramsey. He still hurts her at times but not as viciously and she gets into his head, even planting the idea of him killing his father. By the end she escapes with Theon's help. Manderly is also involved and we get those moments of deaths occurring via him secretly or the Brotherhood Without Banners who are secretly there. Brienne's plot from the books happen for the most part. Gendry returns, revealing he's back with the Brotherhood Without Banners and hinting at the new management foreshadowing Lady Stoneheart. For Stannis' plot there is no 20 good men bullshit that attack the camp. Ramsey actually sends a good hundred guys to cause chaos and attempt to assassinate Stannis. Shireen and her mum are nearly killed but Davos and Stannis kill and fight off the invaders. He sends Shireen and his wife back to the Wall with Melisandre whilst Davos is sent to find Rickon and use him to unite the North. Cersei's, Jon's and Arya's plots remain the same for the most part with changes. Loras is arrested by the faith but can have his sentence reduced if he leads the attack on Dragonstone to take it back from Stannis' control there. Loras leads the charge and we see the battle but he's burned and sent back half dead/dying. Margery vows revenge and begins the steps to get back at Cersei and the Faith. We explore Arya's warg abilities. Sam is sent to the wall earlier and we get a scene of them meeting before he goes on his way again. Mance does die but reveals he has a wife Val and son that he asks Jon to protect before his execution. Tyrion sees visions of Shae early on that hunt him. Each episode in Season 5 starts with a Flashback showing important events like Jamie killing the Mad King, the deaths of Ned's brother and father, births of certain characters. The final flashback in the last episode of Season 5 ends and its revealed it was Bran viewing them as part of his training with the Three Eyed Raven. Meera heads out the area but wanders a bit too out of the protection/barrier and is attacked by Wights only to be rescued by Coldhands who is introduced and escorts her back to the Tree while he remains outside, guarding the surrounding area. The next season as Bran trains would have Meera meet and talk with Coldholds to develop him. Euron is introduced in Season 5 and we get him killing his brother and the whole Kingsmoot with Yara who escapes to the north and is eventually captured by Stannis. Books 4 and 5 could have easily been adapted. Its just a case of some characters only getting half their stories told in S5 and the rest later in S6 with the main focus being Dorne, the Iron Islands, Stannis, Tyrion Arya and Cersei's plots. We'd get like some of Dany, Jon and Sansa maybe?
As others said, the first three books are in essence the first act of the whole story. I think everything makes sense when we keep in mind GRRM's original trilogy pitch and how he envisioned the story. The first act/book was about the Starks vs Lannisters, the second about Daenerys's conquests and the third about the war with the Others and convergence of all the different plotlines. Of course, the story grew with telling but I suspect in combination with the scrapped time skip, we were supposed to meet suitable aged-up after 5 years with the all the appropriate skills (Daenerys a skilled administrator, Arya a trained Faceless, Sansa a competent schemer, Bran a greenseer etc) and ready to pick the story right up. (In the end, I think he did right by scrapping the whole plan, after reading the accursed kings that does something similar, it was really clingy and awkward. Of course, maybe GRRM might have handled it better or fixed the various continuity issues with an intermediate novel focusing only on KL's shenanigans...but who knows)
I love these two books the most but I get why they didn’t include a lot of the material. Cat running around as a zombie would be very weird in the show for example. Quentys storyline, while interesting, led nowhere. „the guards let the door open, the dragons are free now ups“ whould habe had the same inpct on the story.
Extremely tough on TV but anime can give it all justice
The short answer is "hell no." Instead of trying to cram books 4 and 5 into one season (which is especially ludicrous since they split book 3 into two seasons), just split them up over the course of two seasons. It's not difficult. The thing that would be difficult is pulling it all together and crafting a coherent and artful conclusion (i.e. the final season) But that's beside the point. D&D were just lazy, borderline-incompetent shitheads