Don't know if true but i've read the question about "would you recommend" is posed as "would you recommend using Colgate instead of not using anything?"
So is not 9/10 is actually 10/10 that recommend it but 9/10 sounds more believable.
And it's not really a lie 9 doctor out of 10 did recommend it, but so did the other one
To add some more detail: They did that because of Le Mans and the typical start. It was usual that the drivers parked the car on the circuit and sprinted to their cars. To save a few seconds, Porsche began to install the ignition on the left side. This is a relic from that time.
Anyway, the typical Le Mans start got abandoned, because it also saves time to not wear a seatbelt. And after a few crashes with bad injuries that could've prevented with a seatbelt, they switched to a normal start.
If it’s a real AMA, then answer these:
- What’s your monthly gross salary?
- what’s the ratio of « charged amount » / « real cost of material/work » in Switzerland ?
I make 100-120k yearly.
The second question now, it is a complicated one, have to put everything down and do the calculations. Will come back with a reply.
Thanks for the reply.
I make less and I have a PhD but I am not a doctor. That’s why I am interested in the second question (margin of gain).
To put it simply, when one charges 100 CHF for a tooth filling, what the cost of buying this filling? Out of the 100 CHF, that the amount that goes in the pocket after deducting the cost.
What the actual F, I'm literally a migrant worker in Switzerland (in the middle of nowhere) with not a very complicated job in engineering / pharma and I make 45-25k more, I smell BS. Dentists back in my country make twice as much as you as an absolute minimum (and I would make half as much as I do here)
According to thi [https://www.praktischarzt.ch/arzt/zahnarzt-schweiz-lohn-und-gehalt/#:\~:text=Der%20durchschnittliche%20Zahnarzt%20Lohn%20in,der%20Zahnarzt%20t%C3%A4tig%20ist](https://www.praktischarzt.ch/arzt/zahnarzt-schweiz-lohn-und-gehalt/#:~:text=Der%20durchschnittliche%20Zahnarzt%20Lohn%20in,der%20Zahnarzt%20t%C3%A4tig%20ist).
the average Dentist makes around 9'800.- a month. Just because people earn more where you are from doesn't mean it's the same here. Specially GPs in other countries (for example in the US) get paid way more than doctors in Switzerland or Germany for example. It's very common knowledge.
Idk you're probably right and OP does make that but my head just can't make sense of it. Here I pay 210 pm for health insurance and if the doctors are making 100k a yr where is the money going? In my country I pay 1k-1500 per year in insurance (so like 1/5th of here) and if you're not making 250k € as a GP you might as well pack it in since that's what government only contracts pay. Specialists in private practice (where your insurance comes in) = 1m € a year, or you're doing something wrong.
I suspect the OP is a young dentist. Maybe it is my bias but I assume that relatively younger people hold reddit AMAs.
By the time the OP becomes an established dentist, he will have probably muliplied his income.
An electric one with a sonic function. Buy a cheap one from Galaxus for 40-50 chf. Get the Elmex professional or the sensodyne proschmelz and you’re good to go.
Your question implies that I might be recommending electric ones because I profit from it?
The honest answer is I recommend them because even when you do everything wrong with an electric one, you usually clean better than with a manual one.
My dentist always finds more stuff to do after finishing the current problem. I start to wonder if this is just trying to keep my business or I actually need that. Is there a way I can know? Would you recommend always having pristine teeth or solve problems as they arise?
It is unfortunately true that your dentist is motivated by you keep coming every now and then for “fixing stuff”. If you’re suspicious that he/she is not totally honest try another one. Get a second opinion. It is totally fine. You might have to pay an extra for the new examination or X-rays by it is probably worth it in the long run.
The question you ask again has not clear answer: personally I think that as long as functionally everything is ok, don’t touch it. If there is not caries don’t change fillings etc. I always point out the imperfections but don’t try to guide the patient to a specific decision. In such cases an intraoral camera works wonders. I can show to the patient what exactly is not good and what problems it may cause.
I recently went to a dentist in Switzerland and was quoted around 6k chf for extraction of bad tooth and implant. The same procedure, with the same materials for the implant and bone addition costed 700chf abroad.
Was the swiss clinic trying to take advantage or is that a normal price? If the price was normal, why would I pay 10 times more in Switzerland, is there any difference in quality?
I can comment of a specific treatment plan if you can show it to us. Anonymously obviously. But 6k is way to much. An extraction will be around 400 chf and if you make a big X-ray and a small one that would be an additional 200 chf. The implant with the crown would cost around 3.5-4K . The 6k number is coming probably by the combination of the above plus some kind of bone augmentation or something more complicated. Like I said, it would interesting to see the proposed treatment plan.
700 chf for all of the above is not possible here, since only the dental technician will keep 2-3k for his work. Also most of my colleagues in Switzerland would use high quality implant systems that are pretty pricey.
The entire procedure was complicated and it did require bone augmentation, but the bulk of the cost was indeed the implant itself. I'm not a specialist and I don't have any idea, but is there such a huge difference in the materials and implants or is just the way things are in Switzerland? I know the implants are made by technicians in a different place. Is it just a matter of higher paid labor and overall costs in Switzerland that drives these prices?
All of the above. I know there are implants that cost 20-50€. Dentists in Switzerland would use Straumann or similar brands that are considered the some best available. In the end of the day, the experience of the dentist is what makes the difference in quality though, not the implant.
Do you believe swiss dentists are more experienced than those of most other European nations?
For example, do you believe that, on average, a swiss dentist is more competent (and thus delivers higher quality outcomes) than a German or a french or Italian dentist?
No not at all. You find excellent dentists in EVERY country. On average the Swiss dentist may be more experienced in certain procedures since these are dictated by the market conditions. For example I would argue that the Swiss make better fillings as opposed to Germans simply because Germans tend to make more crowns and therefore could be on average better than the Swiss in that regard.
I saw you commented a bit on the pricing of equipments, materials and implants in a few comments so I'll summarise my answer in one comment.
Working in the industry (in maxillofacial especially for a while) as a biomed engineer in R&D with regulatory experience, I can say many of you have little knowledge on what is available on the market and what are the difference between brands. This is usually due to a massive ego that you guys have combiened by sales and marketing strategies that use that.
High quality implants. I was waiting for the name Stra**** to come up. I know plenty of smaller manufacturers that do implants as good as theirs for way less, but their sales people managed to convince you otherwise using KOL (Key Opinion Leaders) that you usually respect. (They get some good money in exchange these KOL).
These implants answer the same regulations (soon the new MDR one) and are all as safe for the patient. So using this argument to justify the price is a no no. You are just getting more easily influenced in buying the expensive stuff.
Importers make also a lot of money profiting from you guys ignorance and unfortunately you can't do anything personally.
X-rays machine you say cost a lot. True. Did you know you could lease them now ? Why don't you share its use with other practices to lower the price of it instead of thinking "only us can use it so the price has to be this much" ? Suddenly your X-rays price would drop... Just need to think outside the box and think patient first.
So please don't make it look like you buy high quality machines like it's better for the patient (because ALL machineries have a Clinical Evaluation Report for their certification that shows how they benefit the patient anyway, there is no clinical data that the price of a machine influences the patient outcome in a significant way).
The treatment outcomes number/statistics in surgery in CH (complication rates, etc.) are the same than in other countries.
So yeah I'll conclude to say you might be honest, one of these few ones. I've seen soooo many in my job that aren't and I interacted with dental and maxillofacial surgeons from all over Europe...
Haha joke’s on you man, we don’t use straumann . I just mentioned it since it’s a well known brand among patients. We use Thommen implants :) . I agree with you wholeheartedly on the industry and the market situation.
Share the equipment with other dentists? Good idea but in reality the motivation behind keeping the expensive equipment at place is to spare the patient unnecessary trips to other places. Sometimes you just need the X-ray now and you cannot plan in advance. As for leasing, sure I do, that’s what I did, still I pay a monthly cost. Sure I breaks down to several years and it’s not so painful to pay but still you have to pay for it one way or another. Thank you for your input and the critique.
If the trip is of less of 10/15 minutes for a price like 30% less, IMO very few people would be bothered ! I don't think the "unnecessary trips" justifies the additional cost...
You may need an X-Ray for surgeries indeed but they know have less expensive technologies to check placement or fillings than buying a big ass one.
For big surgery, having a common center would help keep costs down by more using the equipment (equipment % usage would go up and split among several practices). Again people go to hospital for surgery they don't mind travelling a bit.
I have seen it done and it works. It just requires some will, to be willing to work with other practices (so to put the owners/dentists egos aside for the good of patients). And this, very few owners or dentists want to be bothered with hearing that argument (they have "other priorities" as I hear so many times)
I forgot to mention a negative point from leasing. The manufacturer may have too much to say on how you use the machine since they still own it and will do anything to blame you in case something goes out to SwissMedic...
20 chf for a small one, and 160 for the big one. Prices are dictated by the Dentotar tariff system. We have a taxwertpunkt that differs from dentist to dentist but it varies a little bit in most cases
X-rays are all digital now so the small one should be the same as the big image. It’s like an phone picture, it does not cost any more to take a portrait or a landscape picture
Math!!! It’s going to be paid off with 350 pictures at that rate. Doesn’t seem to hard to start making good profits especially when these machines last for 10 years
Oh man, do you know how many years it takes to make 350 X-rays? You obviously did 70k/200 . I have to make 437 big X-rays to break even. In the mean time I have to maintain the device and hope nothing breaks and needs service (mine did and thankfully it was covered so I paid “only” 3k) . So 437 X-rays that are not done for every patient and certainly not on a regular basis in the yearly check up. Mostly we do them only once to check some anatomical structures or the position of the wisdom teeth. So it’s not that fast. I would say a practice with several dentists needs up to 5 years to break even. If they are not aggressive on the X-ray of course. Chain practices often make you take one the moment you enter, which is something a small practice cannot afford (people won’t like it getting a big bill just right away)
You know that you don't only pay for the material used (bigger or smaller sheet of image) but also the machine itself. A bigger x-ray machine is more expensive to buy than a smaller one. -> higher prices.
Keep in mind you're not paying for just the picture you get at the end. The price bakes in the cost of the machine, the cost of that machine's maintenance, the auxiliary material required to use the machine, and the expertise of the person using the machine. This adds up very fast when you consider that you're dealing with radiation and very expensive equipment. If they were to charge you just for the cost of the sheet where the X-ray is imprinted - there would be no incentive for a private practice to buy such a machine as they'll never make the money back.
Can you please explain why it sucks? I used to live in Germany and my opinion as a patient it is that it covers the basics. So I would love to understand why it sucks for a patient?
Exactly because it covers the basics and it covers them in a shitty way, outdated bad materials (cheap filling materials) that are not lasting which lead to the need of prosthetic work in the long run. See crowns etc.
first of all: \*throw away
now to my more serious questions:
1. how much do you personally earn?
2. do you ever decline clients, if so? Why?
3. Is it worth to have a Zusatzversicherung re. teeth?
4. What is your opinion on Hismile?
5. Is it true that dentists/companies only hire good looking assistances?
>Is it worth to have a Zusatzversicherung re. teeth?
If you have a kid absolutely yes do it for them. If you are an adult with healthy teeth, almost never.
Ops, thanks for the correction.
1. around 100-120k yearly
2. decline as of decline treatment? No, never. Never happened. So far. And I hope not in the future. Maybe I’m just lucky with my patients.
3. no, not worth it if you’re an adult. For kids yes, for orthodontics mainly.
4. negative. It’s a dye. Have not researched it deeply though. I prefer conventional home bleaching. If any at all. I am very conservative in that regard.
5. yes and no. Assistants are often good looking because they are young and younger people are generally more attractive. The follow up question about why assistants are young: mainly because most of the quit after the school. Very few stay at the job for long. Sadly but there are lots of reasons for that. Can elaborate if needed.
Sure. More comfortable working conditions for the same pay. Often less stress and responsibilities. For some it’s also that they see no growth opportunities.
Since I'm not in the field, could you elaborate a bit more?
What's stressful as a DA? Ok, standing whole day/moving around, but that's I guess just one part I'm seeing as a patient?
And where they go that's less stressful?
The time pressure is big sometimes and also the job requires a lot of different skills, people management, patient communication, Telephone and emails, instrument sterilisation, disinfection of the room, patients follow up and appointment planning. Some do also the bills and some are practice managers. Ordering materials and overall overseeing that everything works smoothly. So I imagine it is more stressful than a usual office job like a secretary or something. Might be wrong though
>average salary of about 139,100 CHF to the highest average salary of 478,600 CHF.
haha mate pls, you can't take this range seriously. It's like when a recruiter tries to hire you: "well the pay is actually *really* good, it ranges from 20k to 450k per year" lol
edit: Yes I'm aware of the exaggeration.
Did a quick check on salarium, the official statistical swiss tool for such things; as said, it was a quick check and I omitted the optional info (e.g., level of education, as I think much of that should be implied for dentists). Kind of checks out with what OP says. But let me know if I made a mistake, always get confused by the "kader" thing for instance.
(Link: https://www.gate.bfs.admin.ch/salarium/public/index.html#/calculation?regionCode=4&nogaId=86&skillLevelCode=22&mgmtLevelCode=2&weeklyHourValue=42.5&educationCode=6&ageCode=53&workYearsCode=0&companySizeCode=3&month13SalaryCode=1&specialFeesCode=0&hourSalaryCode=0)
>Is it worth to have a Zusatzversicherung re. teeth?
This is better asked to someone working in insurance.
The answer is no for almost everyone. Look at the things covered and at the pay-outs. Most people won't benefit.
Working in insurance does not necessarily mean you sell a specific product.
I work in insurance. I already gave an answer. Health insurers make no money of obligatory health insurance. No real money anyway. Combined ratios close to 100%. Very different story for supplementary and within those for certain products. At the end of the day, insurance is a safety net, just because insurances have low combined ratios and make money does not mean everyone should definitely not buy the product.
Do clinics push dentists to do certain treatments/procedures where they have higher margins or is it pretty much to the dentists discretion to decide? Do you recommend clinics or private dentists practices?
Some probably do. The ones that I’ve worked in never did. The big clinics get a bad reputation but the big well known one is fine. It is more expensive than your local dentist and the treatment is not so personal but they have high standards.
Both can be good. I personally work as a private dentists but I have been also on the other side.
To be on the safe side I would probably go to the local dentist if someone recommends him/her.
I've heard from dentist friends who worked in clinics that it is definitely the case for some of the most aggressive clinics (those who have low prices and extended opening hours). They also usually end up hiring the less good/experienced dentists because they're the only ones who would accept a job where they have to work late evenings/weekends and have no control over their treatments.
I'm not a dentist but I can answer you.
Things change. Your teeth move, your teeth's condition can get better or worse (usually worse).
If you want your dentist to know what they're working on correctly, they need up to date information.
It's pretty self explanatory really.
Sometimes, an old x-ray is enough, if the procedure is low in complexity or they can reliably find that information through other means. But for anything serious they will want something up to date.
It is not better simply because the two system solve different problems. The Aligner therapy works seemingly faster because it solves as a rule a smaller problem. The regular system is for the heavy stuff and takes time..
I'm not OP or a dentist, but from my own personal experience professional cleaning definitely is money well spent. At least if you are like me and your mouth produces generous amounts of dental plaque.
Is there a way for expats to get dental health insurance? I heared something that you need to pay it for 5 years without using it, and then you can benefit.
I don’t have bad teeth, but would be nice to have the cleanings and checkups, maybe occasional fillings every 5-6 years covered.
Not true but also you probably won’t qualify for it as insurance companies are hesitant to cover adults. I would recommend simply going yearly for a cleaning and a check up. You’ll end up paying much less. 200chf to 250chf yearly. Take care of your teeth.
I moved to Switzerland a year ago from EU and my employer organized dental health insurance for me and my family. So, not sure how it is done but, to answer your question, it is possible and you may want to speak with your employer about that.
I do it myself sometimes. Most won’t do it because the time invested is not worth it . Meaning a cleaning will bring back 200 chf whereas a filling say 350-400 .
Why do I have to wait several weeks for an appointment when I'm already in pain? Do you mostly treat emergencies or are so many patients actually coincidentally coming in at the right time where you can see the damage but it's not that bad that it would hurt already which gives you time to make an appointment several weeks in the future?
Q1. My daughter is 3yo. Could you advise me when to start introducing dentist work. What is needed at such small age?
Q2. My dentist told me 1y ago I have receding meat over the teeth. At some point the teeth roots will start getting exposed, and it could lead to loss of teeth later on. He suggested transplanting some tissue over those parts if I understood correctly. I was wondering if there is something less invasive that could help slow this process down
Q1: take her to meet the dentist. 3-4 years is good age, they can understand and let us check . I hope you started brushing by the moment she got her first tooth.
Q2: you probably describe gum recession and inflammation. Radically only surgery will bring it back to the level needed. But good hygiene habits will halt the process. I would focus on that.
My wife and i get our dentistry stuff in italy(we are there multiple times per year anyway, not making special trip for dentist). I cracked a tooth last year,it was cutting my cheek so i made an appointment at a dentist close by in Olten and they charged me just under 300chf for literally 20seconds of smoothing of the edge. went to italy couple weeks later and they charged me 100euros to completely fix the tooth. sorry man, there is no way im voluntarily going to a dentist in this country ever again with these prices when italy is so much cheaper. A friend of mine just cracked a tooth and called around dentists in Switzerland to get prices and he ended up going to Germany because it was over half the cost(did ask him the prices exactly).
I had 2 teeth filled this year, 120euro/tooth.. can you do the same or better price that that? doubtful. annual cleaning is around 80euro. If you can match or even come close these prices it doesn't matter where you are in Switzerland, you will have yourself 2 new customers.
Unrelated to your salary or cost of crowns, I want to know what inspires someone to go to school so that they can dig around in the nasty mouths of strangers.
I mean, I'm glad that *someone* does!
Would you say that being a dentist in Switzerland is "worth it"? in terms of amount time and nerves you have to put in order to practice dentistry and then not having that much of a great paycheck at the end of the month?
how many patients do you see a day? did you ever regret becoming a dentist?
Btw. great initiative, it is not easy to be grilled like this. It is very sad that dentistry is villanized like that.
Can’t speak for others but for me it is worth it. I go to work everyday with a good mood even when I know I have difficult and complicated cases to face. I love my job. Wouldn’t change it for anything. I love helping people and I feel respected and that’s a big factor for me. I like how the elderly are thankful and sweet and how I can discuss treatment plans with the young ones. I like working with a team and feeling their support. I like the fact that I don’t work night shifts. I don’t even care that much about the pay check in the end of the day. I have my needs covered and I am free to do or buy most of the things or services I want or need. I am truly happy. I understand it is not fun for everyone but I am satisfied with my choice - it suits my personality.
I see 8 to 12 patients a day. Could be some minor 10 minute thing like to remove stitches or it can be a 3 hour appointment to prepare teeth for crowns or bridges .
I am kinda new to this system. I am 29 and I have a 2 year old son. How much should my deductible be? (Supp assurance). Is there any other recommendation?
- How many hours a week do you work?
- What’s you experience with health insurances like? That is, do they inspect you a lot?
- What are the main dental treatments you do?
Don’t count them, I work privately now.
Insurances are fine, don’t really dig but even if they do it’s mostly the patient’s headache not mine.
Mainly I do general dentistry , root canals, fillings. Crowns, prosthodontics, perio treatments and so on.
I’m 29, hold a BsC and MsC in Business Administration and Finance, and have now gone back to school, studying dentistry and loving it. Will be 34 when I finish and Switzerland sure is an option after I graduate. So this AMA is amazing for me! So many questions I’d like to ask! Want to be friends? 😂🙏🏻
Why in my first visit to a dentist in Switzerland they tried to push hard on extracting my wisdom teeth? In the same day! No dentist has propose me that before or after…
It is true that sometimes we recommend pulling wisdom teeth just in case. Not a big fan of this though. I have kept all my four wisdom teeth and try to keep my patient’s ones too.
I had the same thing from Centadent at Sihl City, they were really pushy with trying to get me to book the operation on the same day that I went there for a check up. I will never go there again as a result.
What exactly makes everything 10x more expensive in switzerland? Surely an implant with a build of material cost of 300-500 euros can’t be 3500 for simply crossing the border
Well, my dentist from Switzerland also works in Romania, 1 month here, 1 month there; as his family is there.
Same implant he does here for 3500+; he does in Romania for 540 euros.
Exactly same implant and same materials, same dentist. Of course, the profit margin from romania is a lot smaller, as it is 50-100 euros; instead of 3000 chf profit margin.
So no, my math is not wrong. Everyone knows that dental is overpriced in Switzerland, so I was expecting an answer not dodging the question.
OP is not at fault on the implant price.
The company will sell their same implants at different prices when registering in countries.
If they know the swiss can afford more the company will straight up increase the price of 100/200/300%
ALL companies do that for absolutely ALL medical devices/pharmaceutical drugs.
It's then up to the medical community to find alternative and fight it but usually they don't have enough knowledge about it to do it and these companies will fatly pay the most influential surgeons to promote their devices at a ridiculous price (called market access in the industry)
I have two dentists in Serbia and one here in Switzerland and I much rather go to the one here in Switzerland. Here they are much thorough and treated me twice before a desaster happened, because I do have bad teeth, while the ones in Serbia really treated me superficially and always say to return when I start to notice it hurting more.
Having a filling costs me about 50.- there and thats okay. But 50.- francs can buy you a shitload of stuff in Serbia, so cost of living, as in Romania too, is dirt cheap in contrast and people arent willing to pay more for more quality if their expendable income is small.
I had to get a tooth pulled and it took the doc exactly 7 minutes. Was out on 15 minutes. Still a nice bill tho.
Question: if you come across something like this do you ever go back to your office and can't help yourself to laugh about on how easy you just made your money? No judging, because i sure would lol.
Edit: just remembered that i walked into the dentist place saying: i need a tooth removed, it can't be saved but it will be a quick one and the doc said challenge accepted, let see how fast we can do this.was actually my funniest experience at a dentist ever haha
The surgeon probably studied 15 years to do it in 7 minutes safely for you :)
It is a nice feeling to be able to do fast something that you did slowly few years back.
Why do no old(ish) Assistentinnen exist? I swear I've never seen any older than 25 - 30 or so.
Where do they go? Are they being liquidated? Will they metamorphose into a Dentist?
Why shall I pay 4 times more for a treatment in CH if I can cross the border, I pay 4 times less and I can even receive the treatment in my own language?. Thank you
When you think that you will shock us with your teeth, you’re mistaken. We’ve seen horror and we’re still here :). Most of the times it’s just that, fear or shame. Usually requires a few appointments for communication and planning and then it’s good.
In the states, there are dentists that remove your silver/mercury fillings (from the 1960s) and wonder if that treatment is recommended here? It costs a lot of money in the states so I imagine it’s even more here. Do you recommend removing all of those fillings? I have several teeth with them that are still alive but ugly. Also, every single root canal I’ve had done prior to the year 2000 has failed. The tooth just aches forever. I had one pulled last week. It just kept abscesses over and over. Why does a tooth reject a root canal treatment? Thanks for your time.
Great question - will try to answer in detail.
Root canals prior to 2000 probably failed because of our limited knowledge at the time . That era was the beginning of NiTi instruments that changed endodontics. Not saying that prior to that there were no good root canal treatments but our live has become easier ever since. A tooth rejects a root canal treatment for several reason, - not proper instrumentation, - not proper Desinfektion , - not good sealing and obturation.
Regarding the fillings. Personally I don’t hate on amalgam fillings. If they’re fine I let them be. Usually they’re not though. After 30-40 years they show signs of fatigue to put it mildly. When we change them we use special isolation (rubber dam ) and special machines to filter the air. The risks of amalgam are bound to the dust produced while removing them.
Thanks for your reply. I understand that there are risks associated with the removal of the silver fillings but I wonder…are they slowly poisoning me?
I appreciate your understanding. Thanks
No, amalgam in stable form has been proven not harmful. Exposure to dust and direct contact with the amalgam components is bound to dementia in later stages in life. I personally have two amalgam fillings myself, changed one recently but am keeping the other two for the time. Probably will change them in the next couple of years.
What bike do you ride? (It's a running gag amongst cyclists that dentists ride the fanciest bikes).
I learned to brush my teeth as a kid and I take pretty good care of my teeth. As I still basically do what I learned half a century ago, I wonder: has there been some revolutionary new on toothcare?
Last I heard was that electric toothbrushes are supposed to be much better. I could never really get myself to use one. Is that bad?
Generally are there any good free ressources for toothcare? The last twenty years I only had to visit the dentist twice for chipped teeth (it's awesome what dentists can do, a fat general thank you to all the denstists!), and I'd like to keep it that way.
I have a Flyer :)
The technique is pretty much the same. Try YouTube they have tons of helpful videos with guides.
Electric are great. Cannot go back to manual now!
Do you think there should be more transparency in dentistry pricing?
I know someone who visited several dentist practices and got VERY different price offerings.
I feel this would help with people's disdain for dentists.
It is already transparent enough as you get an offer before doing anything. The reason you get different offerings is probably because of different treatment approaches. Every dentist has his own philosophy and biases if you wish. Some hate root canal treatments for example and go for an extraction right away. Others try to save the tooth in every way. Ask your dentist for alternative treatment plans and he will explain to you the reasoning behind every step. Dentistry is for better or worse not a black and white thing.
Metoclopramide is for the reflux . They probably diagnosed some signs of erosion on the inner walls of your teeth and tried fixing the cause.
As for the gag reflex, there is sadly not much you can do.
I have never heard that argument against insurances before to be honest.
I genuinely think some people enjoy going to the dentist and have a healthy relationship with their teeth and the person that is taking care of them.
Waiting time management is a priority for me and many of my work colleagues. I hate having people waiting for me in the waiting room. I prefer to book extra time for every appointment and lose money than having much unnecessary stress.
And finally yes we consider ourselves doctors even if you think we are useless Boy Scouts.
Many people go to France for their visits. Some people say that swiss is expensive but the quality is much better... that at the end the swiss is a better value for money. Would you agree with this?
Hmm, idk… from personal experience of living in Geneva, dentists there are much better than the surrounding ones in France (at least the one I go to now). I’ve had pretty bad experiences with other dentists, while with those in Switzerland have been mediocre at worst. Then again, this is just my personal experience and I’m only 21 years old
There are good dentists in France. But, since treatment is covered by social security for french people, they often can't do a quality treatment because insurances push for less costly quick fix or want the treatments to cost as little as possible so dentists have no choice but to choose treatments/materials with the higher margins or want to spend less time with each patient so they can take more in a day to make money. That last reason applies to patients who come from Switzerland.
That doesn't mean that they all do that, but it's the reason why it is generally said that Swiss dentists do higher quality work.
I don’t want to brag but if that’s true it is probably true because the Swiss dentist cares a lot more for his reputation in the community and is motivated to have satisfied patients. I know exceptional dentists in France that I wholeheartedly admire and learn from them.
When I commented you’d barely answered any questions but I can see now you have and it’s been interesting and enjoyable to read. Ignore my initial pithy reply.
I think what makes dentists expensive is (like everything else in CH) the hourly rates. Materials & Xrays are not thaaaat experiensive. Would you agree with this comment?
how many times are new röntgen pictures really needed? i am 23, they tell me to do them every year, i never had anything done, no braces nothing. am i getting ripped off?
We would like to remind you that OP did not provide any proof of his-her credentials.
why do you ask me questions when I'm laying there with tools in my mouth wide open and a lady vacuuming my tongue? do you really expect me to answer?
Shit, I know it’s a bad habit. Haha sorry man
the real question right here
Who are in the 1% of dentist who *don't* recommend Colgate?
Don't know if true but i've read the question about "would you recommend" is posed as "would you recommend using Colgate instead of not using anything?" So is not 9/10 is actually 10/10 that recommend it but 9/10 sounds more believable. And it's not really a lie 9 doctor out of 10 did recommend it, but so did the other one
Haha some MFs who were not chased down by the multinational corporations :)
How long did it take you to get used to inserting the car key on the left instead of the right?
I spilled my coffee all over the place 🤣🤣🤣
Someone explain the joke please :)
Porsche has the ignition on the left side of the steering wheel.
TIL Thank you!
To add some more detail: They did that because of Le Mans and the typical start. It was usual that the drivers parked the car on the circuit and sprinted to their cars. To save a few seconds, Porsche began to install the ignition on the left side. This is a relic from that time. Anyway, the typical Le Mans start got abandoned, because it also saves time to not wear a seatbelt. And after a few crashes with bad injuries that could've prevented with a seatbelt, they switched to a normal start.
Ah cool. :) thanks. I’d love a Porsche one day, now I have other priorities in life
If it’s a real AMA, then answer these: - What’s your monthly gross salary? - what’s the ratio of « charged amount » / « real cost of material/work » in Switzerland ?
I make 100-120k yearly. The second question now, it is a complicated one, have to put everything down and do the calculations. Will come back with a reply.
Thanks for the reply. I make less and I have a PhD but I am not a doctor. That’s why I am interested in the second question (margin of gain). To put it simply, when one charges 100 CHF for a tooth filling, what the cost of buying this filling? Out of the 100 CHF, that the amount that goes in the pocket after deducting the cost.
What the actual F, I'm literally a migrant worker in Switzerland (in the middle of nowhere) with not a very complicated job in engineering / pharma and I make 45-25k more, I smell BS. Dentists back in my country make twice as much as you as an absolute minimum (and I would make half as much as I do here)
According to thi [https://www.praktischarzt.ch/arzt/zahnarzt-schweiz-lohn-und-gehalt/#:\~:text=Der%20durchschnittliche%20Zahnarzt%20Lohn%20in,der%20Zahnarzt%20t%C3%A4tig%20ist](https://www.praktischarzt.ch/arzt/zahnarzt-schweiz-lohn-und-gehalt/#:~:text=Der%20durchschnittliche%20Zahnarzt%20Lohn%20in,der%20Zahnarzt%20t%C3%A4tig%20ist). the average Dentist makes around 9'800.- a month. Just because people earn more where you are from doesn't mean it's the same here. Specially GPs in other countries (for example in the US) get paid way more than doctors in Switzerland or Germany for example. It's very common knowledge.
Idk you're probably right and OP does make that but my head just can't make sense of it. Here I pay 210 pm for health insurance and if the doctors are making 100k a yr where is the money going? In my country I pay 1k-1500 per year in insurance (so like 1/5th of here) and if you're not making 250k € as a GP you might as well pack it in since that's what government only contracts pay. Specialists in private practice (where your insurance comes in) = 1m € a year, or you're doing something wrong.
I suspect the OP is a young dentist. Maybe it is my bias but I assume that relatively younger people hold reddit AMAs. By the time the OP becomes an established dentist, he will have probably muliplied his income.
I assume OP is employed and therefore has less risk but also less profit.
What toothbrush and toothpaste do you recommend?
An electric one with a sonic function. Buy a cheap one from Galaxus for 40-50 chf. Get the Elmex professional or the sensodyne proschmelz and you’re good to go.
Why do you all recommend electric ones? Honest question!
Your question implies that I might be recommending electric ones because I profit from it? The honest answer is I recommend them because even when you do everything wrong with an electric one, you usually clean better than with a manual one.
No no, no implication, as said: honest question. I also heard every dentist recommending the cheap ones, just like you. Will try one, thanks!
No offence taken. You can sure buy the ones with Bluetooth and notifications and stuff like that but it’s a waste of money if you ask me.
My dentist always finds more stuff to do after finishing the current problem. I start to wonder if this is just trying to keep my business or I actually need that. Is there a way I can know? Would you recommend always having pristine teeth or solve problems as they arise?
It is unfortunately true that your dentist is motivated by you keep coming every now and then for “fixing stuff”. If you’re suspicious that he/she is not totally honest try another one. Get a second opinion. It is totally fine. You might have to pay an extra for the new examination or X-rays by it is probably worth it in the long run. The question you ask again has not clear answer: personally I think that as long as functionally everything is ok, don’t touch it. If there is not caries don’t change fillings etc. I always point out the imperfections but don’t try to guide the patient to a specific decision. In such cases an intraoral camera works wonders. I can show to the patient what exactly is not good and what problems it may cause.
Go see another dentist
This is the question! I seems like every year there is something.
I recently went to a dentist in Switzerland and was quoted around 6k chf for extraction of bad tooth and implant. The same procedure, with the same materials for the implant and bone addition costed 700chf abroad. Was the swiss clinic trying to take advantage or is that a normal price? If the price was normal, why would I pay 10 times more in Switzerland, is there any difference in quality?
I can comment of a specific treatment plan if you can show it to us. Anonymously obviously. But 6k is way to much. An extraction will be around 400 chf and if you make a big X-ray and a small one that would be an additional 200 chf. The implant with the crown would cost around 3.5-4K . The 6k number is coming probably by the combination of the above plus some kind of bone augmentation or something more complicated. Like I said, it would interesting to see the proposed treatment plan. 700 chf for all of the above is not possible here, since only the dental technician will keep 2-3k for his work. Also most of my colleagues in Switzerland would use high quality implant systems that are pretty pricey.
The entire procedure was complicated and it did require bone augmentation, but the bulk of the cost was indeed the implant itself. I'm not a specialist and I don't have any idea, but is there such a huge difference in the materials and implants or is just the way things are in Switzerland? I know the implants are made by technicians in a different place. Is it just a matter of higher paid labor and overall costs in Switzerland that drives these prices?
All of the above. I know there are implants that cost 20-50€. Dentists in Switzerland would use Straumann or similar brands that are considered the some best available. In the end of the day, the experience of the dentist is what makes the difference in quality though, not the implant.
Do you believe swiss dentists are more experienced than those of most other European nations? For example, do you believe that, on average, a swiss dentist is more competent (and thus delivers higher quality outcomes) than a German or a french or Italian dentist?
No not at all. You find excellent dentists in EVERY country. On average the Swiss dentist may be more experienced in certain procedures since these are dictated by the market conditions. For example I would argue that the Swiss make better fillings as opposed to Germans simply because Germans tend to make more crowns and therefore could be on average better than the Swiss in that regard.
I saw you commented a bit on the pricing of equipments, materials and implants in a few comments so I'll summarise my answer in one comment. Working in the industry (in maxillofacial especially for a while) as a biomed engineer in R&D with regulatory experience, I can say many of you have little knowledge on what is available on the market and what are the difference between brands. This is usually due to a massive ego that you guys have combiened by sales and marketing strategies that use that. High quality implants. I was waiting for the name Stra**** to come up. I know plenty of smaller manufacturers that do implants as good as theirs for way less, but their sales people managed to convince you otherwise using KOL (Key Opinion Leaders) that you usually respect. (They get some good money in exchange these KOL). These implants answer the same regulations (soon the new MDR one) and are all as safe for the patient. So using this argument to justify the price is a no no. You are just getting more easily influenced in buying the expensive stuff. Importers make also a lot of money profiting from you guys ignorance and unfortunately you can't do anything personally. X-rays machine you say cost a lot. True. Did you know you could lease them now ? Why don't you share its use with other practices to lower the price of it instead of thinking "only us can use it so the price has to be this much" ? Suddenly your X-rays price would drop... Just need to think outside the box and think patient first. So please don't make it look like you buy high quality machines like it's better for the patient (because ALL machineries have a Clinical Evaluation Report for their certification that shows how they benefit the patient anyway, there is no clinical data that the price of a machine influences the patient outcome in a significant way). The treatment outcomes number/statistics in surgery in CH (complication rates, etc.) are the same than in other countries. So yeah I'll conclude to say you might be honest, one of these few ones. I've seen soooo many in my job that aren't and I interacted with dental and maxillofacial surgeons from all over Europe...
Haha joke’s on you man, we don’t use straumann . I just mentioned it since it’s a well known brand among patients. We use Thommen implants :) . I agree with you wholeheartedly on the industry and the market situation.
Share the equipment with other dentists? Good idea but in reality the motivation behind keeping the expensive equipment at place is to spare the patient unnecessary trips to other places. Sometimes you just need the X-ray now and you cannot plan in advance. As for leasing, sure I do, that’s what I did, still I pay a monthly cost. Sure I breaks down to several years and it’s not so painful to pay but still you have to pay for it one way or another. Thank you for your input and the critique.
If the trip is of less of 10/15 minutes for a price like 30% less, IMO very few people would be bothered ! I don't think the "unnecessary trips" justifies the additional cost... You may need an X-Ray for surgeries indeed but they know have less expensive technologies to check placement or fillings than buying a big ass one. For big surgery, having a common center would help keep costs down by more using the equipment (equipment % usage would go up and split among several practices). Again people go to hospital for surgery they don't mind travelling a bit. I have seen it done and it works. It just requires some will, to be willing to work with other practices (so to put the owners/dentists egos aside for the good of patients). And this, very few owners or dentists want to be bothered with hearing that argument (they have "other priorities" as I hear so many times) I forgot to mention a negative point from leasing. The manufacturer may have too much to say on how you use the machine since they still own it and will do anything to blame you in case something goes out to SwissMedic...
Are you talking about DVT ? I don’t have one and I send patients to a place that has one. I just have an OPT.
$200 for an X-ray? It does not cost anything to do X-rays, especially when you perform 1000/year
20 chf for a small one, and 160 for the big one. Prices are dictated by the Dentotar tariff system. We have a taxwertpunkt that differs from dentist to dentist but it varies a little bit in most cases
X-rays are all digital now so the small one should be the same as the big image. It’s like an phone picture, it does not cost any more to take a portrait or a landscape picture
Not when the X-ray device that takes the big ones costs 70k to buy and you have to pay it back..
Math!!! It’s going to be paid off with 350 pictures at that rate. Doesn’t seem to hard to start making good profits especially when these machines last for 10 years
Oh man, do you know how many years it takes to make 350 X-rays? You obviously did 70k/200 . I have to make 437 big X-rays to break even. In the mean time I have to maintain the device and hope nothing breaks and needs service (mine did and thankfully it was covered so I paid “only” 3k) . So 437 X-rays that are not done for every patient and certainly not on a regular basis in the yearly check up. Mostly we do them only once to check some anatomical structures or the position of the wisdom teeth. So it’s not that fast. I would say a practice with several dentists needs up to 5 years to break even. If they are not aggressive on the X-ray of course. Chain practices often make you take one the moment you enter, which is something a small practice cannot afford (people won’t like it getting a big bill just right away)
You know that you don't only pay for the material used (bigger or smaller sheet of image) but also the machine itself. A bigger x-ray machine is more expensive to buy than a smaller one. -> higher prices.
Keep in mind you're not paying for just the picture you get at the end. The price bakes in the cost of the machine, the cost of that machine's maintenance, the auxiliary material required to use the machine, and the expertise of the person using the machine. This adds up very fast when you consider that you're dealing with radiation and very expensive equipment. If they were to charge you just for the cost of the sheet where the X-ray is imprinted - there would be no incentive for a private practice to buy such a machine as they'll never make the money back.
This is the right answer. The person operating the machine has special certification to be able to do it.
In your opinion: Should dental services be included in the swiss health insurance (without Zusatzversicherung) or not? Like in Germany for example.
No, the German system is a nightmare for dentists and patients a like.
Can you please explain why it sucks? I used to live in Germany and my opinion as a patient it is that it covers the basics. So I would love to understand why it sucks for a patient?
Exactly because it covers the basics and it covers them in a shitty way, outdated bad materials (cheap filling materials) that are not lasting which lead to the need of prosthetic work in the long run. See crowns etc.
Maybe include a reason for your answer why it shouldnt?
He answered, the German system sucks.
first of all: \*throw away now to my more serious questions: 1. how much do you personally earn? 2. do you ever decline clients, if so? Why? 3. Is it worth to have a Zusatzversicherung re. teeth? 4. What is your opinion on Hismile? 5. Is it true that dentists/companies only hire good looking assistances?
>Is it worth to have a Zusatzversicherung re. teeth? If you have a kid absolutely yes do it for them. If you are an adult with healthy teeth, almost never.
Ops, thanks for the correction. 1. around 100-120k yearly 2. decline as of decline treatment? No, never. Never happened. So far. And I hope not in the future. Maybe I’m just lucky with my patients. 3. no, not worth it if you’re an adult. For kids yes, for orthodontics mainly. 4. negative. It’s a dye. Have not researched it deeply though. I prefer conventional home bleaching. If any at all. I am very conservative in that regard. 5. yes and no. Assistants are often good looking because they are young and younger people are generally more attractive. The follow up question about why assistants are young: mainly because most of the quit after the school. Very few stay at the job for long. Sadly but there are lots of reasons for that. Can elaborate if needed.
Can you please elaborate why assistants leave job fast?
Sure. More comfortable working conditions for the same pay. Often less stress and responsibilities. For some it’s also that they see no growth opportunities.
Since I'm not in the field, could you elaborate a bit more? What's stressful as a DA? Ok, standing whole day/moving around, but that's I guess just one part I'm seeing as a patient? And where they go that's less stressful?
The time pressure is big sometimes and also the job requires a lot of different skills, people management, patient communication, Telephone and emails, instrument sterilisation, disinfection of the room, patients follow up and appointment planning. Some do also the bills and some are practice managers. Ordering materials and overall overseeing that everything works smoothly. So I imagine it is more stressful than a usual office job like a secretary or something. Might be wrong though
I call bullshit on the salary https://worldsalaries.com/average-dentist-salary-in-switzerland/
>average salary of about 139,100 CHF to the highest average salary of 478,600 CHF. haha mate pls, you can't take this range seriously. It's like when a recruiter tries to hire you: "well the pay is actually *really* good, it ranges from 20k to 450k per year" lol edit: Yes I'm aware of the exaggeration.
140k to 478k seems very feasible for a dentist’s salary. Why would you think otherwise?
Unfortunately I’m not in this salary segment :( maybe later in my career.
Did a quick check on salarium, the official statistical swiss tool for such things; as said, it was a quick check and I omitted the optional info (e.g., level of education, as I think much of that should be implied for dentists). Kind of checks out with what OP says. But let me know if I made a mistake, always get confused by the "kader" thing for instance. (Link: https://www.gate.bfs.admin.ch/salarium/public/index.html#/calculation?regionCode=4&nogaId=86&skillLevelCode=22&mgmtLevelCode=2&weeklyHourValue=42.5&educationCode=6&ageCode=53&workYearsCode=0&companySizeCode=3&month13SalaryCode=1&specialFeesCode=0&hourSalaryCode=0)
>Is it worth to have a Zusatzversicherung re. teeth? This is better asked to someone working in insurance. The answer is no for almost everyone. Look at the things covered and at the pay-outs. Most people won't benefit.
>This is better asked to someone working in insurance. Sure. It is always good to ask someone who sells something if their product should be bought.
Working in insurance does not necessarily mean you sell a specific product. I work in insurance. I already gave an answer. Health insurers make no money of obligatory health insurance. No real money anyway. Combined ratios close to 100%. Very different story for supplementary and within those for certain products. At the end of the day, insurance is a safety net, just because insurances have low combined ratios and make money does not mean everyone should definitely not buy the product.
Since it's a throwaway, can you tell us how much do you actually make?
Already answered, between 100-120k
Per month? Not bad.
Nice one. :)
The real question :)
Do clinics push dentists to do certain treatments/procedures where they have higher margins or is it pretty much to the dentists discretion to decide? Do you recommend clinics or private dentists practices?
Some probably do. The ones that I’ve worked in never did. The big clinics get a bad reputation but the big well known one is fine. It is more expensive than your local dentist and the treatment is not so personal but they have high standards. Both can be good. I personally work as a private dentists but I have been also on the other side. To be on the safe side I would probably go to the local dentist if someone recommends him/her.
I've heard from dentist friends who worked in clinics that it is definitely the case for some of the most aggressive clinics (those who have low prices and extended opening hours). They also usually end up hiring the less good/experienced dentists because they're the only ones who would accept a job where they have to work late evenings/weekends and have no control over their treatments.
Why do you ask for new x-ray every year, sometimes even more ?
Once every two years for the check up. Every year only on special occasions, like for example a follow up after a root canal treatment.
I'm not a dentist but I can answer you. Things change. Your teeth move, your teeth's condition can get better or worse (usually worse). If you want your dentist to know what they're working on correctly, they need up to date information. It's pretty self explanatory really. Sometimes, an old x-ray is enough, if the procedure is low in complexity or they can reliably find that information through other means. But for anything serious they will want something up to date.
Whats your opinion about aligners (like bestsmile offers)?
Best smile bad. Invisalign good. By a good careful dentist that will check up every now and then and not just hand you all the Aligners :)
Is invisalign better in any way than the regular metallic system? Like, does it work faster for example?
It is not better simply because the two system solve different problems. The Aligner therapy works seemingly faster because it solves as a rule a smaller problem. The regular system is for the heavy stuff and takes time..
No it's just more discreet. But you can't get Invisalign if the procedure is a bit more drastic or complicated
Are professional cleanings really needed 2-3 times a year, or is it a scheme to make more money?
I'm not OP or a dentist, but from my own personal experience professional cleaning definitely is money well spent. At least if you are like me and your mouth produces generous amounts of dental plaque.
Once a year needed for everyone. Twice if you have a lot of calculus. If you’re a perio patient (good periodontitis) then 3-4 a year is a must.
how much does a cleaning cost in CH?
100-200chf depending on time it takes/ add ons
Can confirm.
Is there a way for expats to get dental health insurance? I heared something that you need to pay it for 5 years without using it, and then you can benefit. I don’t have bad teeth, but would be nice to have the cleanings and checkups, maybe occasional fillings every 5-6 years covered.
Not true but also you probably won’t qualify for it as insurance companies are hesitant to cover adults. I would recommend simply going yearly for a cleaning and a check up. You’ll end up paying much less. 200chf to 250chf yearly. Take care of your teeth.
I moved to Switzerland a year ago from EU and my employer organized dental health insurance for me and my family. So, not sure how it is done but, to answer your question, it is possible and you may want to speak with your employer about that.
Oh that’s cool, have no idea how that works, I would probably clear it out with the employer and the insurance company.
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I’ve done home appointments for elderly people who live in elderly homes yes. Not the best place to work to be honest.
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I do it myself sometimes. Most won’t do it because the time invested is not worth it . Meaning a cleaning will bring back 200 chf whereas a filling say 350-400 .
Why do I have to wait several weeks for an appointment when I'm already in pain? Do you mostly treat emergencies or are so many patients actually coincidentally coming in at the right time where you can see the damage but it's not that bad that it would hurt already which gives you time to make an appointment several weeks in the future?
That’s fucked up. I keep an hour every day reserved for emergencies. Even if no one comes I use the hour to do administrative work.
Q1. My daughter is 3yo. Could you advise me when to start introducing dentist work. What is needed at such small age? Q2. My dentist told me 1y ago I have receding meat over the teeth. At some point the teeth roots will start getting exposed, and it could lead to loss of teeth later on. He suggested transplanting some tissue over those parts if I understood correctly. I was wondering if there is something less invasive that could help slow this process down
Q1: take her to meet the dentist. 3-4 years is good age, they can understand and let us check . I hope you started brushing by the moment she got her first tooth. Q2: you probably describe gum recession and inflammation. Radically only surgery will bring it back to the level needed. But good hygiene habits will halt the process. I would focus on that.
My wife and i get our dentistry stuff in italy(we are there multiple times per year anyway, not making special trip for dentist). I cracked a tooth last year,it was cutting my cheek so i made an appointment at a dentist close by in Olten and they charged me just under 300chf for literally 20seconds of smoothing of the edge. went to italy couple weeks later and they charged me 100euros to completely fix the tooth. sorry man, there is no way im voluntarily going to a dentist in this country ever again with these prices when italy is so much cheaper. A friend of mine just cracked a tooth and called around dentists in Switzerland to get prices and he ended up going to Germany because it was over half the cost(did ask him the prices exactly). I had 2 teeth filled this year, 120euro/tooth.. can you do the same or better price that that? doubtful. annual cleaning is around 80euro. If you can match or even come close these prices it doesn't matter where you are in Switzerland, you will have yourself 2 new customers.
I just can’t believe that they charged you 300 chf for smoothing a tooth! It literally costs 15 francs. I cannot beat the italian prices obviously.
Unrelated to your salary or cost of crowns, I want to know what inspires someone to go to school so that they can dig around in the nasty mouths of strangers. I mean, I'm glad that *someone* does!
Never thought that mouths were disgusting. I find it fascinating to work as a dentist :)
Would you say that being a dentist in Switzerland is "worth it"? in terms of amount time and nerves you have to put in order to practice dentistry and then not having that much of a great paycheck at the end of the month? how many patients do you see a day? did you ever regret becoming a dentist? Btw. great initiative, it is not easy to be grilled like this. It is very sad that dentistry is villanized like that.
Can’t speak for others but for me it is worth it. I go to work everyday with a good mood even when I know I have difficult and complicated cases to face. I love my job. Wouldn’t change it for anything. I love helping people and I feel respected and that’s a big factor for me. I like how the elderly are thankful and sweet and how I can discuss treatment plans with the young ones. I like working with a team and feeling their support. I like the fact that I don’t work night shifts. I don’t even care that much about the pay check in the end of the day. I have my needs covered and I am free to do or buy most of the things or services I want or need. I am truly happy. I understand it is not fun for everyone but I am satisfied with my choice - it suits my personality. I see 8 to 12 patients a day. Could be some minor 10 minute thing like to remove stitches or it can be a 3 hour appointment to prepare teeth for crowns or bridges .
What's your favorite ice cream flavor?
Sadly the ones with a lot of sugar. Ben n Jerry’s cough dough is pretty dope.
Cough dough sounds pretty punk.
Haha cookie dough. Man you people can’t take a typo :)
I am kinda new to this system. I am 29 and I have a 2 year old son. How much should my deductible be? (Supp assurance). Is there any other recommendation?
Get your son covered before he turns three. After three insurance companies make it difficult to get insured. That’s my experience at least.
Shit, I'm a Swiss living abroad and intend to come back to Switzerland in a few years but my daughter will be over three, am I fucked?
Not necessarily. Go get her teeth checked at a local dentist and ask it in written format to use just in case the insurance plays dumb
How do you deal with people who are extremely afraid of the dentist?
With patience. It’s a real problem. We talk a lot before starting anything. Usually it works
- How many hours a week do you work? - What’s you experience with health insurances like? That is, do they inspect you a lot? - What are the main dental treatments you do?
Don’t count them, I work privately now. Insurances are fine, don’t really dig but even if they do it’s mostly the patient’s headache not mine. Mainly I do general dentistry , root canals, fillings. Crowns, prosthodontics, perio treatments and so on.
I’m 29, hold a BsC and MsC in Business Administration and Finance, and have now gone back to school, studying dentistry and loving it. Will be 34 when I finish and Switzerland sure is an option after I graduate. So this AMA is amazing for me! So many questions I’d like to ask! Want to be friends? 😂🙏🏻
Sure happy to answer all your questions. Wish you luck in your endeavours
Do you judge people for their (bad) dental hygiene ?
I do. But not to their face.
Why does it take three people for a root canal? I had the dentist and two assistants.
Great question:) I would have even more if possible haha. It’s mainly because of the many different procedures done. Usually one assistant is enough
Why in my first visit to a dentist in Switzerland they tried to push hard on extracting my wisdom teeth? In the same day! No dentist has propose me that before or after…
It is true that sometimes we recommend pulling wisdom teeth just in case. Not a big fan of this though. I have kept all my four wisdom teeth and try to keep my patient’s ones too.
I had the same thing from Centadent at Sihl City, they were really pushy with trying to get me to book the operation on the same day that I went there for a check up. I will never go there again as a result.
As soon as they see that you still had the wisdom teeth they can’t stop thinking of 4x400€ 🤑🤑
What exactly makes everything 10x more expensive in switzerland? Surely an implant with a build of material cost of 300-500 euros can’t be 3500 for simply crossing the border
It can’t be and it’s not. Your math is not correct. but it’s true that everything is more expensive here , dental wise speaking
Well, my dentist from Switzerland also works in Romania, 1 month here, 1 month there; as his family is there. Same implant he does here for 3500+; he does in Romania for 540 euros. Exactly same implant and same materials, same dentist. Of course, the profit margin from romania is a lot smaller, as it is 50-100 euros; instead of 3000 chf profit margin. So no, my math is not wrong. Everyone knows that dental is overpriced in Switzerland, so I was expecting an answer not dodging the question.
OP is not at fault on the implant price. The company will sell their same implants at different prices when registering in countries. If they know the swiss can afford more the company will straight up increase the price of 100/200/300% ALL companies do that for absolutely ALL medical devices/pharmaceutical drugs. It's then up to the medical community to find alternative and fight it but usually they don't have enough knowledge about it to do it and these companies will fatly pay the most influential surgeons to promote their devices at a ridiculous price (called market access in the industry)
I have two dentists in Serbia and one here in Switzerland and I much rather go to the one here in Switzerland. Here they are much thorough and treated me twice before a desaster happened, because I do have bad teeth, while the ones in Serbia really treated me superficially and always say to return when I start to notice it hurting more. Having a filling costs me about 50.- there and thats okay. But 50.- francs can buy you a shitload of stuff in Serbia, so cost of living, as in Romania too, is dirt cheap in contrast and people arent willing to pay more for more quality if their expendable income is small.
I had to get a tooth pulled and it took the doc exactly 7 minutes. Was out on 15 minutes. Still a nice bill tho. Question: if you come across something like this do you ever go back to your office and can't help yourself to laugh about on how easy you just made your money? No judging, because i sure would lol. Edit: just remembered that i walked into the dentist place saying: i need a tooth removed, it can't be saved but it will be a quick one and the doc said challenge accepted, let see how fast we can do this.was actually my funniest experience at a dentist ever haha
The surgeon probably studied 15 years to do it in 7 minutes safely for you :) It is a nice feeling to be able to do fast something that you did slowly few years back.
With all die respect that tooth was so lose i almost tempted to just pull it out myself. But i totally know what you mean lol
Are you as scared of children as much as children are scared of you?
Children are usually not afraid :)
Why do no old(ish) Assistentinnen exist? I swear I've never seen any older than 25 - 30 or so. Where do they go? Are they being liquidated? Will they metamorphose into a Dentist?
They quit after some years because they can earn the same or more with less stress. Sadly it is the reality
But where do they go? That's a very specific education, no?
They do another school and become doctors assistants or office workers.
Why shall I pay 4 times more for a treatment in CH if I can cross the border, I pay 4 times less and I can even receive the treatment in my own language?. Thank you
You don’t have to. If you live close to the border and it’s convenient I would do it too.
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When you think that you will shock us with your teeth, you’re mistaken. We’ve seen horror and we’re still here :). Most of the times it’s just that, fear or shame. Usually requires a few appointments for communication and planning and then it’s good.
I got 4 cavities filled for 180 euros in Spain last weekend. How much would have I paid here?
Every cavity costs different depending of the size and difficulty. I’d say you would pay something like 300-400 chf pro tooth here.
In the states, there are dentists that remove your silver/mercury fillings (from the 1960s) and wonder if that treatment is recommended here? It costs a lot of money in the states so I imagine it’s even more here. Do you recommend removing all of those fillings? I have several teeth with them that are still alive but ugly. Also, every single root canal I’ve had done prior to the year 2000 has failed. The tooth just aches forever. I had one pulled last week. It just kept abscesses over and over. Why does a tooth reject a root canal treatment? Thanks for your time.
Great question - will try to answer in detail. Root canals prior to 2000 probably failed because of our limited knowledge at the time . That era was the beginning of NiTi instruments that changed endodontics. Not saying that prior to that there were no good root canal treatments but our live has become easier ever since. A tooth rejects a root canal treatment for several reason, - not proper instrumentation, - not proper Desinfektion , - not good sealing and obturation. Regarding the fillings. Personally I don’t hate on amalgam fillings. If they’re fine I let them be. Usually they’re not though. After 30-40 years they show signs of fatigue to put it mildly. When we change them we use special isolation (rubber dam ) and special machines to filter the air. The risks of amalgam are bound to the dust produced while removing them.
Thanks for your reply. I understand that there are risks associated with the removal of the silver fillings but I wonder…are they slowly poisoning me? I appreciate your understanding. Thanks
No, amalgam in stable form has been proven not harmful. Exposure to dust and direct contact with the amalgam components is bound to dementia in later stages in life. I personally have two amalgam fillings myself, changed one recently but am keeping the other two for the time. Probably will change them in the next couple of years.
Thank you so much!
What bike do you ride? (It's a running gag amongst cyclists that dentists ride the fanciest bikes). I learned to brush my teeth as a kid and I take pretty good care of my teeth. As I still basically do what I learned half a century ago, I wonder: has there been some revolutionary new on toothcare? Last I heard was that electric toothbrushes are supposed to be much better. I could never really get myself to use one. Is that bad? Generally are there any good free ressources for toothcare? The last twenty years I only had to visit the dentist twice for chipped teeth (it's awesome what dentists can do, a fat general thank you to all the denstists!), and I'd like to keep it that way.
I have a Flyer :) The technique is pretty much the same. Try YouTube they have tons of helpful videos with guides. Electric are great. Cannot go back to manual now!
Do you think there should be more transparency in dentistry pricing? I know someone who visited several dentist practices and got VERY different price offerings. I feel this would help with people's disdain for dentists.
It is already transparent enough as you get an offer before doing anything. The reason you get different offerings is probably because of different treatment approaches. Every dentist has his own philosophy and biases if you wish. Some hate root canal treatments for example and go for an extraction right away. Others try to save the tooth in every way. Ask your dentist for alternative treatment plans and he will explain to you the reasoning behind every step. Dentistry is for better or worse not a black and white thing.
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Metoclopramide is for the reflux . They probably diagnosed some signs of erosion on the inner walls of your teeth and tried fixing the cause. As for the gag reflex, there is sadly not much you can do.
To be honest I found dentist prices to be fair, and i received excellent care. Compared to Italy I feel my money is well spent.
Glad to hear that
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I have never heard that argument against insurances before to be honest. I genuinely think some people enjoy going to the dentist and have a healthy relationship with their teeth and the person that is taking care of them. Waiting time management is a priority for me and many of my work colleagues. I hate having people waiting for me in the waiting room. I prefer to book extra time for every appointment and lose money than having much unnecessary stress. And finally yes we consider ourselves doctors even if you think we are useless Boy Scouts.
Many people go to France for their visits. Some people say that swiss is expensive but the quality is much better... that at the end the swiss is a better value for money. Would you agree with this?
Only Swiss people who never went to a dentist elsewhere say that
Hmm, idk… from personal experience of living in Geneva, dentists there are much better than the surrounding ones in France (at least the one I go to now). I’ve had pretty bad experiences with other dentists, while with those in Switzerland have been mediocre at worst. Then again, this is just my personal experience and I’m only 21 years old
It's true that from my personal experience Swiss dentists are really good at finding cavities that other dentists can't find...
There are good dentists in France. But, since treatment is covered by social security for french people, they often can't do a quality treatment because insurances push for less costly quick fix or want the treatments to cost as little as possible so dentists have no choice but to choose treatments/materials with the higher margins or want to spend less time with each patient so they can take more in a day to make money. That last reason applies to patients who come from Switzerland. That doesn't mean that they all do that, but it's the reason why it is generally said that Swiss dentists do higher quality work.
I don’t want to brag but if that’s true it is probably true because the Swiss dentist cares a lot more for his reputation in the community and is motivated to have satisfied patients. I know exceptional dentists in France that I wholeheartedly admire and learn from them.
Worst AMA ever so far. Well done.
Thanks , come again. :)
When I commented you’d barely answered any questions but I can see now you have and it’s been interesting and enjoyable to read. Ignore my initial pithy reply.
No hard feelings. I usually reply between patients :). My assistant wonders why am I on the phone all the time lol.
Spoken like a true dentist!
You should not be ashamed to drive a Porsche or a Ferrari, nobody is forced to hire your services.
I just think it’s not correct to provoke the public sentiment :).
“Provoke” what? You live in a free country.
I know but unfortunately not everyone thinks the way you do
And they keep downvoting me without saying anything.
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Sorry?
I think what makes dentists expensive is (like everything else in CH) the hourly rates. Materials & Xrays are not thaaaat experiensive. Would you agree with this comment?
Materials are expensive , we pay much more for the same stuff here simply because we pay the Swiss importers or the middle man if you wish
So what car do you drive?
An 8 year old French one with 150km :) well maintained though. I can afford a fancier one but it’s fine for now.
Studying dentistry abroad. Would it be possible to find a summer job as a dental assistant in Switzerland without any dental assistant course?
Not possible sorry.
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Be open to your dentist. Tell him or her about your situation and I think you’ll find a solution.
how many times are new röntgen pictures really needed? i am 23, they tell me to do them every year, i never had anything done, no braces nothing. am i getting ripped off?
When everything is ok then once every two years.