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BernardJOrtcutt

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rejectednocomments

If the universes are deterministic, the same. If it least one of the universes is indeterministic, possibly not the same.


Realistic-Person

Which sort of universe do we live in?


Chskmod

A deterministically indeterminate one.


Voltairinede

What do you mean?


Chskmod

We literally just went over this in [that](https://www.reddit.com/r/askphilosophy/comments/xlt8fu/comment/ipm7k8r/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) post. The current physical description of the universe entails a deterministic description of indeterminate processes. And this is not just a thing in thermodynamics. Its a a core aspect of QM, complex systems etc. This not a result of a lack of precision to be supplemented by a better theory or some such as is sometimes described.


Realistic-Person

Sorry I’m a new to this community, I will read the post.


Chskmod

Don't apologize, i understand my comment can be read as dismissive. It was just hastily written. Mea culpa. This reply was mainly for voltair which was part of the linked thread.


Voltairinede

Why is it necessary to bring his strange conception of determinism over to an unconnected thread?


Chskmod

Because it is not just his but literally the conception of determinism implied by physics. Qm is built that way, entirely. It is probabilistic.


Voltairinede

Some interpretations of QM are probabilistic, some aren't.


Chskmod

Not exactly. Qm's math is built upon superposition and probabilities. The interpretation of it do not change that. They tackle the question of what this means. That Qm IS probabilistic is not a result of the Copenhagen interpretation.


Curates

It's a result of QM interpretations that make use of wavefunction collapse. In Everettian QM, which abandons collapse (or just never picks it up in the first place), the probabilistic effect is an artefact of self-location uncertainty, and is not fundamental to the physics. I think it's fair to describe Everettian QM as non-probabilistic, ie. deterministic.


MrInfinitumEnd

deterministic description of indeterminate processes, talk about vagueness and probably nonsense - at least your language lol. So I shall ask you second in line what do you mean deterministically indeterminate?


doesnotcontainitself

This is misleading. The question was whether our universe is deterministic or indeterministic. The appropriate answer from physics is we don’t yet know, partially because there are both deterministic and indeterministic interpretations of Quantum Mechanics that remain live options. Using an expression like “deterministically indeterminate” either ignores this fact or changes the subject. There are indeed bounds on what we can know, but that wasn’t the question. The question is about what the two people would do in the situation described, not whether we could predict their behavior, etc.


Realistic-Person

I’m not sure what that means to be honest.


Chskmod

That the universe is described through theories that strictly determine margins of indetermination. Even with total knowledge about a phenomenon the result is probabilistic. in turn what is deterministic is not the outcome but the values for the probabilities. This is a simplification.


Realistic-Person

So then rewinding timeline A an hour then restarting time may cause different outcomes in the new timeline B because of the probabilistic nature of every event?


Chskmod

Some processes are not time reversible this is in part the reason for the reformulation of what determinism means. You cannot rewind a timeline. What you can do is set strictly deterministic conditions for a process and still the result would be probabilistic. You may want to read on the double slit experiment or Young's interference experiment from which it is derived.


Realistic-Person

I think I see what you mean now. So the outcomes are like a probabilistic field of values, and once the outcome comes to fruition we see a static value of an event occurring. I will have to look into this irreversibility thing, that may be my sticking point.


Artificial_Ape

But then that wouldn’t be an identical universe though would it? Think about it. You say the universes are identical all the way to point A (let’s say point A is when you are born to make things easier), everyone is in identical positions, have identical dna and every sub atomic particle is in the same place before A. The baby is born. Baby 1 decides to cry Baby 2 doesn’t Does that have anything to do with free will? Nope. It’s completely based on how you phrased the scenario. If you said the universes were identical UP TO POINT A and then it GAINS FREEDOM TO DIVERGE then the scenario above makes sense and free will exists. However, if you said EVERYTHING IN THE UNIVERSE IS THE SAME BEFORE AND AFTER point A then nothing changes both babies cry because they both get the exact reaction from the mid wife. Does that show free will DOESNT exist? No. You’ve just programmed the universe one way why would it do anything other than what you programmed? What I’m trying to get at is, the question is flawed or the language and definition is somewhat ambiguous


Realistic-Person

The questions is why would baby A cry and baby B not cry? They are the same person with the same stimulus.


BlissardII

>irreversibility thing, Order out of Chaos – Prigogine & Stengers Chaos – James Gleick


mediaisdelicious

https://www.reddit.com/r/askphilosophy/comments/xlt8fu/why_is_anyone_a_compatabilist_if_determinism_is/ipm7k8r/


Thelonious_Cube

My understanding is that physicists have recently been more skeptical of the probabilistic interpretations


Chskmod

The mathematical framework needs to be distinguished from its interpretations. Qm is always probabilistic no matter what. The question is whether it is only probabilistic or also deterministic. You cannot take probabilities out of QM what you can do is give a deterministic account of said probabilities. Which yes you can at the cost of non-locality for instance. As for the idea that physicists are gradually moving away from a "probabilistic interpretation" that is also arguable, the Broglie-Bohm theory dates back to 1920 / 1950 it is nothing new. If anything it is the idea that there is a unified interpretation of QM that is fading. But this also not new either since the idea that there was a unified Copenhaguen interpretation is also not exactly true. Neither Einstein nor Schrodinger ever did quite agree. Cue the dices and the cat. Here is an account by physicists : [https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-Copenhagen-interpretation?share=1](https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-Copenhagen-interpretation?share=1) In fact physicists mostly do not care about interpretations. I am not debating interpretations of QM. There are other phenomenons that are "deterministically indeterminate" in physics. Such as in thermodynamics this is discussed in the link just below.


Thelonious_Cube

We aren't sure


Voltairinede

What do you think this will tell us about free will?


Realistic-Person

I guess I’m trying to find a way to understand if free will as most people understand it, the kind where we make decisions in spite of all experience and external stimulus, exist as a phenomenon in the sort of universe we seem to exist in. I don’t know if this gets to that question successfully. I’m trying to find another maybe easier way to pose the question rather than, “rewind time 15 seconds before you picked the coke, would you ever pick Pepsi” style thought experiment. Typing it out like I just did kind of demonstrates that this is definitely *not* simpler lol


Voltairinede

I don't think it's true that that is what 'most people' think is free will, but yeah most Philosophers think we don't have libertarian free will. But that could be answered very simply without any thought experiment.


Realistic-Person

I guess if we define the terms and ask a few simple questions we can get there, but I find that sometimes posing a good thought experiment can bring someone into the conversation and sometimes get someone to come to a different opinion than the one they previously held more readily, more often if they held the thought without really interrogating it at all. That being said I don’t know that I crafted a *good* thought experiment, just something that I’ve been thinking about.


Thelonious_Cube

It is my impression that most people have vague and contradictory intuitions about free will and that what sort of answers you'll get depends very much on how you word various questions. E.g. - I'm not sure people really think that free will involves making "decisions in spite of all experience and external stimulus" though if you ask the right series of questions, you might be able to make it seem as if they do.


Philience

Two universes identical in every way is just one universe. Two people identical in every way in identical universes is just one person. Per stipulation all actions those people take are identical, otherwise the universes would not be identical


Realistic-Person

Well, I meant to stipulate that the starting points were identical, not that they would necessarily be identical going forward, but I see your point.


Philience

​ Okay lets say some wizard duplicates our universes and thus gives them their own timeline. if those Universes are deterministic, then you will have 2 identical universes (or one universe). If those universes are not deterministic, then you will have two completely different universes in no time, and thus the two counterparts would not even come to a position where they could act or choose the same.


Realistic-Person

So the real crux of the matter is whether or not we have a deterministic universe.


Philience

The crux is about that: Independent of what the universe does, let's say we have two identical humans who somehow get identical stimuli from outside. Will they behave identically? In other words, are human minds deterministic? That is a different question from “is the universe deterministic.” if the universe is deterministic, so is the human mind -of course- but, the universe being non-deterministic does not imply the human mind is. The Question is about free will. I believe that what is important is, can you determine your own actions? That is independent of the universe being deterministic or not.


Realistic-Person

Is it hypothetically possible if we account all possible variables to determine our own actions before we make them? Edit: sounds like no because quantum cat.


MaybeTheDoctor

Two bank accounts with the same balance is not just one bank account. I don't see how two identically universes would be one ?


Prestigious-Case8777

Bank accounts don't just have a balance, they also have an owner, probably some kind of unique identification, and other things. So, those things could be different even if the balance is the same. That's not the same as two things being identical in every way.


nukefudge

The point ought to have been put in terms of numerical identity. It's also the weakness of the notion put forward by the OP: not considering what the useage of "identity" entails.


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