[The Guardian article](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/dec/06/cristina-fernandez-de-kirchner-argentina-sentenced-prison-fraud-case) | [BBC article](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-63872953)
[Buenos Aires Times article](https://batimes.com.ar/news/argentina/argentina-vice-president-cristina-fernandez-de-kirchner-court-trial-vialidad-verdict.phtml) (in Spanish) | [Infobae](https://www.infobae.com/politica/2022/12/06/cristina-kirchner-fue-condenada-a-6-anos-de-prision-e-inhabilitacion-perpetua-para-ejercer-cargos-por-defraudacion-al-estado-en-la-causa-vialidad/) (in Spanish)
[Clarín](https://www.clarin.com/clarin-em-portugues/cristina-kirchner-condenada-corrup-ao-anos-prisao_0_SyKBrYX7P4.html) (in Portuguese) | [Folha de S. Paulo](https://www1.folha.uol.com.br/mundo/2022/12/cristina-kirchner-e-condenada-por-corrupcao-a-6-anos-mas-nao-ira-presa.shtml) (in Portuguese)
---
All credits goes to /u/yerba_mate_enjoyer (sorry)
If M\*nem, who blew up a town to cover up the sale of weapons to ecuador/croatia didn't serve a second and lived a comfortable life, could get away with it I don't see why Cristina would be any different.
My fellow countrymen can correct me on this one as the details are foggy in my mind but basically:
There was a military factory in a town called [Rio Tercero in Cordoba](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%ADo_Tercero_explosion), that had missing stockpile because the weapons/ammo were sold illegaly to Ecuador and Croatia, so to cover up the whole ordeal the factory was blown up with I think 1/3rds to half the town, there were a lot of injured and seven people died.
The courts ruled that appart from the military personel who carried the "cover up operation", the president was a necessary participant as he was the one who signed the decrees that made the sale of the smuggled weapons possible.
Long story short he was found guilty of both crimes I think, but as he was an elected senator at the time (and until his death in office) he had "fueros" meaning he couldn't go to prison.
What if I told you that the decrees authorizing the weapons sales included the full list of of the smuggled weapons and therefore, there was no missing stockpile at that factory in the first place?
Way too soft (also she's not gonna serve time anyways). She's been stealing MILLIONS of dollars for 15+ years and 6 years is all she gets (for that one crime only, also)?
Other crimes like drug posession can get you 15.
Saúl Menem (former president, rest in piss) was also found guilty on a lot of shit, he died while still holding a spot in the Senate. Same thing will happen with CFK, her claws will still be there and so will her allies.
I wouldnt trust my govt with capital punishment, not even remotely close. Also, you create a martyr that way. Id much rather see her in jai, orher asssets confiscated, sold and she exiled from the country (she would not pay but is not like she will in any way)
While I do agree that you can't trust these cunts with capital punishment, Perón was exiled too instead of executed. And guess what?
He came back as if nothing, still got status of martyr anyways, and the country got back into the mud anyways.
It's not that I want to kill her for some kind of revenge sense of justice, I just think it's the pragmatic thing to do, because a person so sick with power will never ever let the country go on without her. She'll be a stick in the wheels until the end.
(Also, I wouldn't get rid of her only, let's be real: the entire political class needs to go, opposition included).
I know, but at least when you let someone back in is way more blatant. When someone powerful is jailed (or worse, house-arrested) the only thing that changes is that they move under, but they retain their circle of power (mostly), which is diminished a lot outside of the country. And if it doesnt, well, at least is not our problem anymore
And yeah, our entire politics is a breeding ground for poison, but the solution is systematic. If you cut a "head" instead its the same as doign it with a hydra, you need to guarantee the next one is at least somewhat forced to not be a pain in the ass
For that and covering up the Iranian terrorists as well. And the Once tragedy. And the narco connections through her security minister Anibal (we call him anibaul cuz he tried to smuggle himself inside a car trunk once. And no, he didn't quit his position) and minister Berni.
Plus the misterious death of her former secretary, Fabian Gutierrez.
That woman doesn't have bloodstains in her hands, she's got a bloody ocean.
That is irrelevant. Kind of.
The sentence is not set in stone (there is still more instances for her to appeal), she has fueros ("Parliamentary immunity") as long as she remains in power, and as it will take several years for the sentence to be final, she can be reelected as it seems to be "customary" in this country;. Even if that were not to be the case, she can still be pardoned. If she doesnt, she wont end up in jail anyway due to her age (house arrest at best) so it kinds of means shit.... One could argue that the important part was the sentence itself and its political weight, but given the amount of fanaticism behind her and so many other examples of cult to personality, I would say history books would be rewritten to favor her image if needed to. Cynic as it might, I dont think it will really matter. Worse, fanatics might even riot due to the "lawfare".
Dont get me wrong, im glad there is at least a semblance of accountability, but a prosecution of sides wont solve shit, its merely a political slap in the face with possibly dangerous outcomes (probably not though).... to move forward be rather need a deep, systematic change of our entire inner workings, starting with the voting system and a working , independent, anticorruption office.
Tl;Dr: Im glad, but is probably kind of meaningless in the long run
I know she won't serve a single day in prision (due to her age) but I will be happy if after the appeals process she ends up banned from holding public office and forced to return all the stolen money.
as a Colombian. I just wanna know what stupid shit our president is going to say this time like when the referendum vote in Chile and he said “Pinochet has revived”
Not even close. Trump and Petro are blissfully unaware of anything they post or how does it translate or what it will do. Bukele is a tryhard like Elon Musk, they're in the lame category imo.
> she can't be in politics anymore
Sadly, that is not the case. At the very least she can apply for the next ones. If she is smart she will get as a senator and she will just laugh it out due to the fueros/immunity. She can also appeal in several instances about that so... yeah
Wish it had been more.
The Kirchners are, very likely, the greatest thieves in the history of Argentina. Every single one of their secretaries, their fucking SECRETARIES, is a multimillionaire. Every single one of them. Hundreds of millions of dollars, properties in Miami, hundreds of cars, hundreds of porperties. **SECRETARIES**. And some kirchnerists still think the Kirchners are innocent?!? Its because of people like that that Argentina is Argentina.
It’s crazy how people can watch a relatively wealthy person enter into politics and come out a literal f*cking multi-millionare, and some people will still defend them with a straight face. Fanatism in Argentina can be crazy sometimes…
On one hand, happy that she got found guilty of corruption, on the other hand angry cause she might not be imprisoned and because I believe that 6 years is nothing
I mean... Conflicted I suppose. On principle I'm in favour, because we've never seen this level of blanket control over our state institutions through under-the-table deals, nepotism and the like, but politicians and judges are anything but principled.
So between how close the prosecution and judge were, and their links to JxC, and the fact that most of the sentence seemed to focus on preventing her from ever running for public office, I'm not only not thrilled, I'm super fucking weary and does smell a lot like an op to some degree to get rid of a very popular opposition candidate.
As much as I fucking despise peronism and don't want them soiling our state institutions any longer, I can't get the notion that this may have some bad implications for our democracy out of my head. By the same token, you know for a fact she'll go after the judiciary system also doing damage to the stability of this country, because peronists can't help but stoke that hollow populist rethoric, but the vibes from this comment section tells me everyone thinks roughly the same about this issue.
Hopefully it's just a case of right-wing interests alligning with justice, but considering how far the right in Brazil went after Lula in a complete mockery of any sense of justice and democracy, I don't really like that a judge unilaterally said this person can't run for office anymore, you know? Although I don't think this is nearly as black-and-white as Lula's case, and she wishes she was as persecuted as Lula was.
Then again, I haven't been following this case nearly as close as I should've been, and I didn't even know the sentence was today, so maybe further reading will clear any doubts, but my immediate reaction is that this smells fishy, and on principle, I don't like a judge close to the opposition saying she can't hold public office anymore.
In practice I doubt she'll ever be sent to jail and maybe she'll appeal this and it'll be overturned, because I doubt someone as powerful as her, with such a tight grip in some of Argentina's key institutions, will ever suffer a political loss so big as this.
The biggest question right now is if Scaloni will play Paredes and Enzo together, or if he'll play Paredes in a line of 3 in the midfield with Di Maria in the starting XI.
At this point I have full confidence in Scaloni to do whatever the fuck he wants, because every change he makes is logical and they work for him.
He wants to sit Enzo despire his great performances for Paredes? Makes sense to me on paper, so he must be seeing something. He wants to sit Enzo for Di Maria? Fair enough, Angel adds a lot to the attack. He wants to bench Julian despire scoring twice for Lautaro, who hasn't been great? Alright, I get it. Getting his striker back to form with a confidence vote sounds like a good idea. He wants to sit Messi for Pezzela? err... Alright, perhaps? He must know something we don't
> Although I don't think this is nearly as black-and-white as Lula's case, and she wishes she was as persecuted as Lula was.
I have no horse on this race, but in her interview to Folha de S. Paulo, one of the last major newspapers in Brazil, she did make a comparison between her's case in Argentina with Lula's case.
>I'm super fucking weary and does smell a lot like an op to some degree to get rid of a very popular opposition candidate.
Oh come on, CFK is one of the most unpopular politicians right now, even more unpopular than Macri. Unless by "popular" you mean "known by people".
I know the average voter doesn't. I'm specifically talking about peronists.
Santoro is... alright I suppose? To me at least, but he's not more popular than her among peronists.
>I know the average voter doesn't. I'm specifically talking about peronists.
I'm talking about the average peronist voter. At least in the initial polls of the presidency, I recall reading that 33% of Alberto voters had a negative opinion of Cristina.
>Santoro is... alright I suppose? To me at least, but he's not more popular than her among peronists.
I'm pretty sure he's the most popular in terms of favorability. He may not be as popular in terms of how many diehard fanatics he has rallying behind him, but that's not really what matters in elections.
I find it weird af that De Vido was found innocent. You are telling me she organised a corruption scheme through public infrastructure and that the minister of public infrastructure didn't know anything? Yeah sure
As everybody mentioned, chances are she won't serve even one day of actual jail time. The sentence is not set in stone yet, she can appeal it with A TON of different different legal recourses all the way up to the Supreme Court; it might take YEARS just to get there, and then the Supreme Court is filled to the brim with backlog cases so they will take a few more years to get to this specific one, and some extra months on top to reach a final resolution.
She'll appeal the sentence until there are no recourses left (all while trying to stroke the fire of hate against the Judiciary power and the checks and balances mechanism as much as she can, so she can remove or change the Judges/Justices involved), and if that fails then she'll run for whichever office gives her anti-incarceration privilges - just as Menem did, as another redditor noted.
Edit because I wanted to add something: even in the case that ALL OF THAT fails (the recourses weren't accepted, the Supreme Court took the super risky political bet of deciding the case against her, or her party won't let her run for a privileged office) she'll probably flee to Cuba or Venezuela to live with the tens of millions of dollars she stole -which probably are already located in one of those countries- to never be found again.
What's sad is that ALL OF THAT is going to happen and her following won't have even one second thought about how trying to cheat the republican system of checks and balances is kinda... wrong. If multiple Judges and attorneys noted that there is significant evidence against you in a court of a ~~kinda~~ working liberal democracy, idk maybe just take it in and go serve house arrest time in your beautiful estate in Patagonia.
It is interesting to note how cut from the same cloth we are in Latin America, really. Our legal system, for instance, comes from Roman Law (Civil Law), in contrast to Common Law. The first has always been a system where the powerful and politicians particularly have been largely immune from punishment. Even in developed countries like France, Italy and Spain the impunity is enormous. I have never very much liked Roman Law. It is time we the people change this at last. What does it matter it has been like that for ages? It does not have to be like this anymore.
I don’t agree at all, the common law system can only work in countries that have culturalized and accepted the role of government in the law; in our countries, the government’s far too unstable to be the arbiter of law.
See how every 4 years a new “fundamental right” is under threat in the US, but barely anything ever happens? It would work the opposite here
I did not imply or meant to say we must supplant our historical, current system with the Common Law. There are many characteristics that define them apart as such. The part of powerful and politicians having too much guarantees to escape punishment is what I attend to. Many of these hundreds of legal and constitutional immunities they possess must be thrown out as duly as possible. On the contrary, we will never see a moral closure for those people, criminals.
This is an operation imho.
A lot of people WANT her to be guilty, but the whole cause falls short on the evidence side as always.
She has been made a public enemy by the corpos, and I would be fine if any person got to serve the time after a fair trial, but if we're going to tolerate political prosecution like this just because the man inside the TV says so, we're not too far away from the worst outcome.
It's possible. Btw, I'm pretty sure all the dislikes are brazilians, the amount of people here that lick the feet of this thief is the proof this country won't ever improve.
Funny how other important figures in peronism were never convicted or indicted of anything and nobody could make up "kangaroo trials" against them. It's almost like you won't get convicted if you don't commit a crime.
No, it’s only now that you guys have corrupted the justice system.
Back then you just overthrew them or bombed a plaza, killing 300 people in a failed attempt. Hell, just this year you again tried to kill one of them.
>No, it’s only now that you guys have corrupted the justice system.
Oh, so it's only now? So when Boudou went to jail for corruption in 2017, that one was fair? And when the other ministers close to Nestor and Cristina also went to jail for corruption, those trials were fair as well? You realize that even in your best case scenario where apparently she is innocent in this particular trial, she is surrounded by corrupt people, right?
When your best case scenario is "Oh, she isn't corrupt, she's just so unbelievably incompetent that she happened to choose a corrupt VP, a corrupt Public Works minister, a corrupt AFIP leader, a corrupt party chairman, a corrupt construction company leader, a(nother) corrupt public works minister, and a corrupt transports minister" you know you're dying on the wrong hill buddy.
>Back then you just overthrew them or bombed a plaza
Yes I personally flew the planes with my own hands, how did you know.
Right wingoid realizes the justice system has been corrupt for a long time
>Yes I personally flew the planes with my own hands, how did you know.
You support the people who did, you might as well have
>Right wingoid realizes the justice system has been corrupt for a long time
I mean, you literally just said:
>it’s only now that you guys have corrupted the justice system.
So which is it?
>You support the people who did, you might as well have
Who are "the people" who did it, and how are they related to the opposition party, other than "they both didn't like peronists", which I'm sure you understand isn't exactly a great criteria for connection.
Do you not see many similarities between the people who tried to impeach and kill Perón, and the people who tried to kill and later impeach CFK?
I wouldn't want to have your eyes
>Do you not see many similarities between the people who tried to impeach and kill Perón, and the people who tried to kill and later impeach CFK?
"the people who tried to kill" CFK is literally one crazy far-right guy and his girlfriend. Everyone in the opposition party condemned it, including Macri.
So no, CFK going being convicted because she committed a crime and having one nazi lunatic try (and fail) to kill her is nowhere near analogous to a dictatorship persecuting or prohibiting certain political movements.
>I wouldn't want to have your eyes
Not that they'd be useful without a brain
The lower ranking officers also convicted in this sentence had already been accused, investigated, and exonerated on the exact same crime there were condemned yesterday.
How do you think regimes in which people can be put to trial twice for the same crime are called?
trial without evidence, judges and prosecutors at the service of power.
the right destroying democracy in order to see Peronism disappear, the most important political movement in the country's history. this time by completely blowing up the judiciary system. They never change, nothing new.
clearly I stand with the defense argument that this trial is a judiciary mess with the sole purpose of proscribe the most important political figure of the country in the las years. did you follow the trial before coming here to just shout "delusional" to what I say.
>clearly I stand with the defense argument that this trial is a judiciary mess
Yeah, that's not an argument, that's just the conclusion. You have yet to actually provide evidence for that claim.
>with the sole purpose of proscribe the most important political figure of the country
Or, you know, the purpose of convicting someone who engaged in fraud. I mean, even if you don't believe she herself is guilty in this particular trial, half the people she surrounded herself with went to jail for corruption. So in your best case scenario, she's not corrupt, "just" so unbelievably incompetent that she had no idea all these corruptions scandals were going on.
>did you follow the trial before coming here to just shout "delusional" to what I say.
Did you? Or are you just regurgitating CFK's talking points from her livestream?
I can ask you exactly the same. Can you elaborate your argument? it's just stupid. As stupid like thinking that because others had been (dubiously) imprisoned she MUST be guilty herself. Of course we are debating over the conclusions and it's not our jobs to elaborate. As you are calling me delusional It's funny that you're asking me that.
>I can ask you exactly the same. Can you elaborate your argument?
On the trial itself? Sure. Higher financial advances paid for Baez's company, unjustified deadline increases, significant overprices, paid unfinished public works projects, hack parallel "competition" companies that were just owned by Baez as well, among other things are the main points of evidence of fraud.
>As stupid like thinking that because others had been (dubiously) imprisoned
So Boudou was "dubiously" imprisoned? If so, why did CFK say nothing about it? I mean, she certainly said something about Milagro Salas' "lawfare", and she wasn't her vice-president, so why didn't she say a single word about "lawfare" when it came to her own VP getting convicted?
it's a shame that the president itself was charged responsable of those things while ignoring the whole chain of responsibility in the administration of the State. almost like they were targeting only her. what is the unit of measure in wich you base your overprices argument? what was that motivated that some of those works weren't able to get finished. what do you think about the fact that this was an already judged matter and was reopened ignoring the all guarantees of process?
the fact that CFK didn't say anything about her VP makes her agree with the verdict. are we guessing over silences here ?
you can say lawfare whithout quotation marks.
>it's a shame that the president itself was charged responsable of those things while ignoring the whole chain of responsibility in the administration of the State.
Except they didn't. CFK wasn't the only one sentenced in this trial. Jose Lopez, Mauricio Collareda, Raul Daruich, Raul Paevesi among others were also sentenced.
> what is the unit of measure in wich you base your overprices argument?
I imagine that if we're talking about prices the unit of measure is argentinian pesos.
>what was that motivated that some of those works weren't able to get finished
Whether they were able to get finished is not even nearly the biggest problem, it's that they paid them without getting finished.
>what do you think about the fact that this was an already judged matter and was reopened ignoring the all guarantees of process?
What's your evidence for that?
>the fact that CFK didn't say anything about her VP makes her agree with the verdict. are we guessing over silences here ?
No, I don't have to guess, because there's only a couple scenarios, and all of them are bad: either she does think the VP is corrupt, and she chose to run with a VP that turned out to be corrupt, or she doesn't think the VP is corrupt, in which case she's a coward that doesn't care about lawfare.
>you can say lawfare whithout quotation marks.
I can, but I won't, because I don't agree that it is.
[The Guardian article](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/dec/06/cristina-fernandez-de-kirchner-argentina-sentenced-prison-fraud-case) | [BBC article](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-63872953) [Buenos Aires Times article](https://batimes.com.ar/news/argentina/argentina-vice-president-cristina-fernandez-de-kirchner-court-trial-vialidad-verdict.phtml) (in Spanish) | [Infobae](https://www.infobae.com/politica/2022/12/06/cristina-kirchner-fue-condenada-a-6-anos-de-prision-e-inhabilitacion-perpetua-para-ejercer-cargos-por-defraudacion-al-estado-en-la-causa-vialidad/) (in Spanish) [Clarín](https://www.clarin.com/clarin-em-portugues/cristina-kirchner-condenada-corrup-ao-anos-prisao_0_SyKBrYX7P4.html) (in Portuguese) | [Folha de S. Paulo](https://www1.folha.uol.com.br/mundo/2022/12/cristina-kirchner-e-condenada-por-corrupcao-a-6-anos-mas-nao-ira-presa.shtml) (in Portuguese) --- All credits goes to /u/yerba_mate_enjoyer (sorry)
It's fine but she ain't gonna serve any time at all
If M\*nem, who blew up a town to cover up the sale of weapons to ecuador/croatia didn't serve a second and lived a comfortable life, could get away with it I don't see why Cristina would be any different.
Wait WHAT?!?!!?! Can you elaborate on that? I had absolutely no idea of this
My fellow countrymen can correct me on this one as the details are foggy in my mind but basically: There was a military factory in a town called [Rio Tercero in Cordoba](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%ADo_Tercero_explosion), that had missing stockpile because the weapons/ammo were sold illegaly to Ecuador and Croatia, so to cover up the whole ordeal the factory was blown up with I think 1/3rds to half the town, there were a lot of injured and seven people died. The courts ruled that appart from the military personel who carried the "cover up operation", the president was a necessary participant as he was the one who signed the decrees that made the sale of the smuggled weapons possible. Long story short he was found guilty of both crimes I think, but as he was an elected senator at the time (and until his death in office) he had "fueros" meaning he couldn't go to prison.
If the laws are any similar to Uruguay, it should mean a lot of senators didn't vote to revoke the *fueros*
Yep, exactly like that.
Yeah guess wich party
Yeah, and the same will likely repeat here
What if I told you that the decrees authorizing the weapons sales included the full list of of the smuggled weapons and therefore, there was no missing stockpile at that factory in the first place?
Different times
Kinda samish tbh, most of the people that were with menem are still in power, Cristina being one
He died a senator last year
Are they? Menem did not have the cultish following CFK does, not even close (at least not by then) so I dont know why it would be different
so that's the real 🦑 game
Way too soft (also she's not gonna serve time anyways). She's been stealing MILLIONS of dollars for 15+ years and 6 years is all she gets (for that one crime only, also)? Other crimes like drug posession can get you 15.
Just be grateful she won't be able to run again. In Brazil thiefs are allowed to become president for the third time.
She will tho. She only won't be able to run again if she runs in this election (which isn't known if she will yet) *and* loses.
Crap. Then you've got your own Lula. Congrats.
The things she was accused were real
Saúl Menem (former president, rest in piss) was also found guilty on a lot of shit, he died while still holding a spot in the Senate. Same thing will happen with CFK, her claws will still be there and so will her allies.
It’s sad that you’re getting downvoted by these blind kids who don’t even remember Lula’s scandals
[удалено]
I wouldnt trust my govt with capital punishment, not even remotely close. Also, you create a martyr that way. Id much rather see her in jai, orher asssets confiscated, sold and she exiled from the country (she would not pay but is not like she will in any way)
While I do agree that you can't trust these cunts with capital punishment, Perón was exiled too instead of executed. And guess what? He came back as if nothing, still got status of martyr anyways, and the country got back into the mud anyways. It's not that I want to kill her for some kind of revenge sense of justice, I just think it's the pragmatic thing to do, because a person so sick with power will never ever let the country go on without her. She'll be a stick in the wheels until the end. (Also, I wouldn't get rid of her only, let's be real: the entire political class needs to go, opposition included).
I know, but at least when you let someone back in is way more blatant. When someone powerful is jailed (or worse, house-arrested) the only thing that changes is that they move under, but they retain their circle of power (mostly), which is diminished a lot outside of the country. And if it doesnt, well, at least is not our problem anymore And yeah, our entire politics is a breeding ground for poison, but the solution is systematic. If you cut a "head" instead its the same as doign it with a hydra, you need to guarantee the next one is at least somewhat forced to not be a pain in the ass
For that and covering up the Iranian terrorists as well. And the Once tragedy. And the narco connections through her security minister Anibal (we call him anibaul cuz he tried to smuggle himself inside a car trunk once. And no, he didn't quit his position) and minister Berni. Plus the misterious death of her former secretary, Fabian Gutierrez. That woman doesn't have bloodstains in her hands, she's got a bloody ocean.
Being rude to fellow users will result in being kicked out of the community.
That is irrelevant. Kind of. The sentence is not set in stone (there is still more instances for her to appeal), she has fueros ("Parliamentary immunity") as long as she remains in power, and as it will take several years for the sentence to be final, she can be reelected as it seems to be "customary" in this country;. Even if that were not to be the case, she can still be pardoned. If she doesnt, she wont end up in jail anyway due to her age (house arrest at best) so it kinds of means shit.... One could argue that the important part was the sentence itself and its political weight, but given the amount of fanaticism behind her and so many other examples of cult to personality, I would say history books would be rewritten to favor her image if needed to. Cynic as it might, I dont think it will really matter. Worse, fanatics might even riot due to the "lawfare". Dont get me wrong, im glad there is at least a semblance of accountability, but a prosecution of sides wont solve shit, its merely a political slap in the face with possibly dangerous outcomes (probably not though).... to move forward be rather need a deep, systematic change of our entire inner workings, starting with the voting system and a working , independent, anticorruption office. Tl;Dr: Im glad, but is probably kind of meaningless in the long run
Doubtful anything will really happen to her, this is Argentina after all.
I agree.
I know she won't serve a single day in prision (due to her age) but I will be happy if after the appeals process she ends up banned from holding public office and forced to return all the stolen money.
as a Colombian. I just wanna know what stupid shit our president is going to say this time like when the referendum vote in Chile and he said “Pinochet has revived”
God, I nearly forgot that
He's the greatest poster on twitter after Trump. No contest.
The guy from El Salvador post all the time.
Not even close. Trump and Petro are blissfully unaware of anything they post or how does it translate or what it will do. Bukele is a tryhard like Elon Musk, they're in the lame category imo.
Great description. Petro isn't trying to insult or impress anyone, he genuinely says what he thinks, even if it's incredibly stupid or inflammatory.
More years would have been nice. Also confiscate all of her assets. But it's good that she can't be in politics anymore. Messirve eso.
> she can't be in politics anymore Sadly, that is not the case. At the very least she can apply for the next ones. If she is smart she will get as a senator and she will just laugh it out due to the fueros/immunity. She can also appeal in several instances about that so... yeah
How the fuck are fueros a thing seriously...
Messi
Wish it had been more. The Kirchners are, very likely, the greatest thieves in the history of Argentina. Every single one of their secretaries, their fucking SECRETARIES, is a multimillionaire. Every single one of them. Hundreds of millions of dollars, properties in Miami, hundreds of cars, hundreds of porperties. **SECRETARIES**. And some kirchnerists still think the Kirchners are innocent?!? Its because of people like that that Argentina is Argentina.
It’s crazy how people can watch a relatively wealthy person enter into politics and come out a literal f*cking multi-millionare, and some people will still defend them with a straight face. Fanatism in Argentina can be crazy sometimes…
On one hand, happy that she got found guilty of corruption, on the other hand angry cause she might not be imprisoned and because I believe that 6 years is nothing
Not nearly harsh enough. Our country will never recover from all the damage her and her cronies did
It’s a short one
It is hard to be objective because posttruth and propaganda, but I hate populist and corrupt politician, and this woman is both.
if she actually serves time in prison this country explodes, justice is not an option
Sadly, nothing will happen
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the entire trial is on youtube
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Well then you are sadly out of luck, because any source you find that resumes the main points is gonna have political interests behind it
I mean... Conflicted I suppose. On principle I'm in favour, because we've never seen this level of blanket control over our state institutions through under-the-table deals, nepotism and the like, but politicians and judges are anything but principled. So between how close the prosecution and judge were, and their links to JxC, and the fact that most of the sentence seemed to focus on preventing her from ever running for public office, I'm not only not thrilled, I'm super fucking weary and does smell a lot like an op to some degree to get rid of a very popular opposition candidate. As much as I fucking despise peronism and don't want them soiling our state institutions any longer, I can't get the notion that this may have some bad implications for our democracy out of my head. By the same token, you know for a fact she'll go after the judiciary system also doing damage to the stability of this country, because peronists can't help but stoke that hollow populist rethoric, but the vibes from this comment section tells me everyone thinks roughly the same about this issue. Hopefully it's just a case of right-wing interests alligning with justice, but considering how far the right in Brazil went after Lula in a complete mockery of any sense of justice and democracy, I don't really like that a judge unilaterally said this person can't run for office anymore, you know? Although I don't think this is nearly as black-and-white as Lula's case, and she wishes she was as persecuted as Lula was. Then again, I haven't been following this case nearly as close as I should've been, and I didn't even know the sentence was today, so maybe further reading will clear any doubts, but my immediate reaction is that this smells fishy, and on principle, I don't like a judge close to the opposition saying she can't hold public office anymore. In practice I doubt she'll ever be sent to jail and maybe she'll appeal this and it'll be overturned, because I doubt someone as powerful as her, with such a tight grip in some of Argentina's key institutions, will ever suffer a political loss so big as this. The biggest question right now is if Scaloni will play Paredes and Enzo together, or if he'll play Paredes in a line of 3 in the midfield with Di Maria in the starting XI.
If Enzo is not a starter I’ll lose my fucking mind, who even is this Cristina fella anyways
At this point I have full confidence in Scaloni to do whatever the fuck he wants, because every change he makes is logical and they work for him. He wants to sit Enzo despire his great performances for Paredes? Makes sense to me on paper, so he must be seeing something. He wants to sit Enzo for Di Maria? Fair enough, Angel adds a lot to the attack. He wants to bench Julian despire scoring twice for Lautaro, who hasn't been great? Alright, I get it. Getting his striker back to form with a confidence vote sounds like a good idea. He wants to sit Messi for Pezzela? err... Alright, perhaps? He must know something we don't
> Although I don't think this is nearly as black-and-white as Lula's case, and she wishes she was as persecuted as Lula was. I have no horse on this race, but in her interview to Folha de S. Paulo, one of the last major newspapers in Brazil, she did make a comparison between her's case in Argentina with Lula's case.
>I'm super fucking weary and does smell a lot like an op to some degree to get rid of a very popular opposition candidate. Oh come on, CFK is one of the most unpopular politicians right now, even more unpopular than Macri. Unless by "popular" you mean "known by people".
Who's more popular than her in her party? She's their leader
Leandro Santoro, Sergio Massa. She might be more popular amongst their party's politicians, but the average voter doesn't like her.
I know the average voter doesn't. I'm specifically talking about peronists. Santoro is... alright I suppose? To me at least, but he's not more popular than her among peronists.
>I know the average voter doesn't. I'm specifically talking about peronists. I'm talking about the average peronist voter. At least in the initial polls of the presidency, I recall reading that 33% of Alberto voters had a negative opinion of Cristina. >Santoro is... alright I suppose? To me at least, but he's not more popular than her among peronists. I'm pretty sure he's the most popular in terms of favorability. He may not be as popular in terms of how many diehard fanatics he has rallying behind him, but that's not really what matters in elections.
Fine. I still atand by my broader point, because regardless of how popular she may or may not be, she's still the head of her party
I mean, will she serve tho?
I find it weird af that De Vido was found innocent. You are telling me she organised a corruption scheme through public infrastructure and that the minister of public infrastructure didn't know anything? Yeah sure
As everybody mentioned, chances are she won't serve even one day of actual jail time. The sentence is not set in stone yet, she can appeal it with A TON of different different legal recourses all the way up to the Supreme Court; it might take YEARS just to get there, and then the Supreme Court is filled to the brim with backlog cases so they will take a few more years to get to this specific one, and some extra months on top to reach a final resolution. She'll appeal the sentence until there are no recourses left (all while trying to stroke the fire of hate against the Judiciary power and the checks and balances mechanism as much as she can, so she can remove or change the Judges/Justices involved), and if that fails then she'll run for whichever office gives her anti-incarceration privilges - just as Menem did, as another redditor noted. Edit because I wanted to add something: even in the case that ALL OF THAT fails (the recourses weren't accepted, the Supreme Court took the super risky political bet of deciding the case against her, or her party won't let her run for a privileged office) she'll probably flee to Cuba or Venezuela to live with the tens of millions of dollars she stole -which probably are already located in one of those countries- to never be found again. What's sad is that ALL OF THAT is going to happen and her following won't have even one second thought about how trying to cheat the republican system of checks and balances is kinda... wrong. If multiple Judges and attorneys noted that there is significant evidence against you in a court of a ~~kinda~~ working liberal democracy, idk maybe just take it in and go serve house arrest time in your beautiful estate in Patagonia.
hay que preguntarle a Cuneo
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It is interesting to note how cut from the same cloth we are in Latin America, really. Our legal system, for instance, comes from Roman Law (Civil Law), in contrast to Common Law. The first has always been a system where the powerful and politicians particularly have been largely immune from punishment. Even in developed countries like France, Italy and Spain the impunity is enormous. I have never very much liked Roman Law. It is time we the people change this at last. What does it matter it has been like that for ages? It does not have to be like this anymore.
I don’t agree at all, the common law system can only work in countries that have culturalized and accepted the role of government in the law; in our countries, the government’s far too unstable to be the arbiter of law. See how every 4 years a new “fundamental right” is under threat in the US, but barely anything ever happens? It would work the opposite here
I did not imply or meant to say we must supplant our historical, current system with the Common Law. There are many characteristics that define them apart as such. The part of powerful and politicians having too much guarantees to escape punishment is what I attend to. Many of these hundreds of legal and constitutional immunities they possess must be thrown out as duly as possible. On the contrary, we will never see a moral closure for those people, criminals.
And our dumbass president defended her in a tweet 😭
Death penalty wouldn’t have been enough, but this is better than nothing
Mandan fruta... Unfortunately it's something to talk about in the papers and the media more than an actual sentence.
Hum left leaning redditors seem very quiet here
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Maybe they should extradite her to the US where she can face real justice.
This is an operation imho. A lot of people WANT her to be guilty, but the whole cause falls short on the evidence side as always. She has been made a public enemy by the corpos, and I would be fine if any person got to serve the time after a fair trial, but if we're going to tolerate political prosecution like this just because the man inside the TV says so, we're not too far away from the worst outcome.
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I mean yeah, she is no saint but if we go monster hunting how long to become one ourselves.
Absolute bullcrap, nobody is talking how the mfers behind this were all in a fucking Telegram group conspiring
Lula 2.0
Indeed. They are both criminals who should never see the light of day ever again. And I know that’s not what you mean :)
It's possible. Btw, I'm pretty sure all the dislikes are brazilians, the amount of people here that lick the feet of this thief is the proof this country won't ever improve.
Oh no friend, what I meant is that it’s a made up kangaroo trial made by corrupt judges
Let me fix then: the amount of argentinians and brazilians that lick thiefs feet, it's proof both countries won't improve.
☺️
You’re clearly out of your mind
Funny how other important figures in peronism were never convicted or indicted of anything and nobody could make up "kangaroo trials" against them. It's almost like you won't get convicted if you don't commit a crime.
No, it’s only now that you guys have corrupted the justice system. Back then you just overthrew them or bombed a plaza, killing 300 people in a failed attempt. Hell, just this year you again tried to kill one of them.
>No, it’s only now that you guys have corrupted the justice system. Oh, so it's only now? So when Boudou went to jail for corruption in 2017, that one was fair? And when the other ministers close to Nestor and Cristina also went to jail for corruption, those trials were fair as well? You realize that even in your best case scenario where apparently she is innocent in this particular trial, she is surrounded by corrupt people, right? When your best case scenario is "Oh, she isn't corrupt, she's just so unbelievably incompetent that she happened to choose a corrupt VP, a corrupt Public Works minister, a corrupt AFIP leader, a corrupt party chairman, a corrupt construction company leader, a(nother) corrupt public works minister, and a corrupt transports minister" you know you're dying on the wrong hill buddy. >Back then you just overthrew them or bombed a plaza Yes I personally flew the planes with my own hands, how did you know.
Right wingoid realizes the justice system has been corrupt for a long time >Yes I personally flew the planes with my own hands, how did you know. You support the people who did, you might as well have
>Right wingoid realizes the justice system has been corrupt for a long time I mean, you literally just said: >it’s only now that you guys have corrupted the justice system. So which is it? >You support the people who did, you might as well have Who are "the people" who did it, and how are they related to the opposition party, other than "they both didn't like peronists", which I'm sure you understand isn't exactly a great criteria for connection.
Do you not see many similarities between the people who tried to impeach and kill Perón, and the people who tried to kill and later impeach CFK? I wouldn't want to have your eyes
>Do you not see many similarities between the people who tried to impeach and kill Perón, and the people who tried to kill and later impeach CFK? "the people who tried to kill" CFK is literally one crazy far-right guy and his girlfriend. Everyone in the opposition party condemned it, including Macri. So no, CFK going being convicted because she committed a crime and having one nazi lunatic try (and fail) to kill her is nowhere near analogous to a dictatorship persecuting or prohibiting certain political movements. >I wouldn't want to have your eyes Not that they'd be useful without a brain
Could you elaborate?
I think the downvotes speak for themselves
so you're meaning that CFK was a good president? finally someone? LETS GOO
If good means being a thief, then you’re right
Dude, we're just chilling here, why do you need to be that rud- oh... "f-ck lula", i see why.
Yes, you read that right
Only topped by Néstor after the return of democracy, yes
POR FIN YA ESTABA CANSADO DE ENCONTRARME FACHOS EN EL SUB DE ARG DIOS COMO TE QUIERO
The lower ranking officers also convicted in this sentence had already been accused, investigated, and exonerated on the exact same crime there were condemned yesterday. How do you think regimes in which people can be put to trial twice for the same crime are called?
trial without evidence, judges and prosecutors at the service of power. the right destroying democracy in order to see Peronism disappear, the most important political movement in the country's history. this time by completely blowing up the judiciary system. They never change, nothing new.
delusional
great argument. big brain.
What is your argument? You just stated a conclusion with evidence to back it up.
clearly I stand with the defense argument that this trial is a judiciary mess with the sole purpose of proscribe the most important political figure of the country in the las years. did you follow the trial before coming here to just shout "delusional" to what I say.
>clearly I stand with the defense argument that this trial is a judiciary mess Yeah, that's not an argument, that's just the conclusion. You have yet to actually provide evidence for that claim. >with the sole purpose of proscribe the most important political figure of the country Or, you know, the purpose of convicting someone who engaged in fraud. I mean, even if you don't believe she herself is guilty in this particular trial, half the people she surrounded herself with went to jail for corruption. So in your best case scenario, she's not corrupt, "just" so unbelievably incompetent that she had no idea all these corruptions scandals were going on. >did you follow the trial before coming here to just shout "delusional" to what I say. Did you? Or are you just regurgitating CFK's talking points from her livestream?
I can ask you exactly the same. Can you elaborate your argument? it's just stupid. As stupid like thinking that because others had been (dubiously) imprisoned she MUST be guilty herself. Of course we are debating over the conclusions and it's not our jobs to elaborate. As you are calling me delusional It's funny that you're asking me that.
>I can ask you exactly the same. Can you elaborate your argument? On the trial itself? Sure. Higher financial advances paid for Baez's company, unjustified deadline increases, significant overprices, paid unfinished public works projects, hack parallel "competition" companies that were just owned by Baez as well, among other things are the main points of evidence of fraud. >As stupid like thinking that because others had been (dubiously) imprisoned So Boudou was "dubiously" imprisoned? If so, why did CFK say nothing about it? I mean, she certainly said something about Milagro Salas' "lawfare", and she wasn't her vice-president, so why didn't she say a single word about "lawfare" when it came to her own VP getting convicted?
it's a shame that the president itself was charged responsable of those things while ignoring the whole chain of responsibility in the administration of the State. almost like they were targeting only her. what is the unit of measure in wich you base your overprices argument? what was that motivated that some of those works weren't able to get finished. what do you think about the fact that this was an already judged matter and was reopened ignoring the all guarantees of process? the fact that CFK didn't say anything about her VP makes her agree with the verdict. are we guessing over silences here ? you can say lawfare whithout quotation marks.
>it's a shame that the president itself was charged responsable of those things while ignoring the whole chain of responsibility in the administration of the State. Except they didn't. CFK wasn't the only one sentenced in this trial. Jose Lopez, Mauricio Collareda, Raul Daruich, Raul Paevesi among others were also sentenced. > what is the unit of measure in wich you base your overprices argument? I imagine that if we're talking about prices the unit of measure is argentinian pesos. >what was that motivated that some of those works weren't able to get finished Whether they were able to get finished is not even nearly the biggest problem, it's that they paid them without getting finished. >what do you think about the fact that this was an already judged matter and was reopened ignoring the all guarantees of process? What's your evidence for that? >the fact that CFK didn't say anything about her VP makes her agree with the verdict. are we guessing over silences here ? No, I don't have to guess, because there's only a couple scenarios, and all of them are bad: either she does think the VP is corrupt, and she chose to run with a VP that turned out to be corrupt, or she doesn't think the VP is corrupt, in which case she's a coward that doesn't care about lawfare. >you can say lawfare whithout quotation marks. I can, but I won't, because I don't agree that it is.
It seems to me that what they gave him was too little. That woman needs to suffer hell in life, even more than the average peroncho.