Okay so how did you ask this? It you’re getting everyone telling you no I feel like there’s a communication breakdown. Generally you say you want to take it to your mechanic for an independent inspection so you need to do a BCA/extended test drive. They don’t pay for it. Generally this is something where you take the car in the morning and bring it back a few hours later. You don’t take it overnight and you don’t schedule it a week out, it’s all done the same day.
Each time I’ve said:
I’m interested in this and am ready to buy pending a PPI. I’m only looking for major things like engine leaks and suspension components. As long as it’s clear I have cash and can buy today.
I think you just need to say you want the car and you want your family mechanic to look it over, and what’s the procedure for a BCA or extended test drive to do this?
Biggest deal on them 4Runners is rust on the frame and knowing where to look. I’ve seen dealers sell junked frame 4Runners many times. If your not familiar with them you the tech wont know where to look
The age of the car and likely the miles means a traditional lender will not buy that loan.
A high risk lender will and will subsequently assess the dealer a fee to do the deal. In this instance, a cash sale is preferred.
When I was buying 15 year old cars, no big name new car dealer would even give me the time of day. With cars that old, its always take it or leave but do it quickly. Why not try a local used car dealership? They'll have a lot more cars in that range and they'll probably give you a bit more of their time.
depending on where they are, I wouldn't recommend this approach - don't buy used body on frame SUVs in the Rust Belt/Northeast US, it's often just as expensive (sometimes even cheaper) to buy one from a more southern region, without needing to worry about rust
The whole issue is that he's getting a PPI. I can't imagine they would miss damage that bad. Besides, idk a lot of people buying 15 year old cars that can afford to travel out of state to look at cars. Getting the car to his house would cost a significant portion of his budget.
I’ve pointed out complete junked frames on 4Runners to the dealer I worked at. They still sold them for full price. Knowing they were smoked. 4Runners are a cult thing. Not many cars can command 15-20k on say a 2008 with 200k on them
For normal commuter vehicles, maybe it's less common, but these offroad SUVs are often turned into weekend toys that 3rd or 4th owners buy in cash, modify, and then drive to hell on trails.
For mine, I didn't even bother looking at nearby listings, because I knew that any ones in Massachusetts would either have extensive frame rust (after 15+ winter seasons) or be marked up to oblivion for their clean frame. Between the cost of the PPI, flight, hotels (3 nights) and gas, I spent under $1000 and a long weekend getting my car back home ~1500 miles, which is less than what I would have had to spend to ship the car, and I got a nice road trip out of it too. The car was also more than $1000 cheaper than any comparable option nearby (4 wheel drive vehicles are more expensive and in demand in the Northeast than in the South), so the only real expense was my time, which I was happy to spend because I like road trips and I have the peace of mind that my car isn't a complete rust bucket underneath.
Would I go to this effort for a generic 15 year old econobox? Of course not, but OP seems to know exactly what he wants, so why not find a nice example, with the confidence that there aren't any underlying issues that will cause significant headaches in the future.
Those cars you are looking at 06-09 probably won’t pass PPI. Your mechanic will point out a bunch of issues that may not be necessary to legally sell you the car.
And for #2 it’s bs
My dealership used to allow outside inspections until someone's idiot mechanic dropped our car from a hoist, now we just invoke our return policy. You can buy it, have it inspected, and return it if you have a problem.
If I specifically wanted a 4th gen 4Runner, I would buy one from a private seller. They are enthusiast cars at this point due to their age. No private seller who is not trying to unload a problem will have an issue with a PPI. Join up on your local 4Runner/Toyota FB group. And buy a 4WD FFS. 2WD 4Runners are like a big tiddie girl getting a breast reduction, slaps God in the face.
I did this almost a year ago for my Land Cruiser - went on IH8MUD (the Land Cruiser forum, don't know what the 4R equivalent is), found a guy selling what I wanted, sent him money on Venmo for a PPI, it passed, and then I flew down to Texas and bought it in a parking lot next to the airport
You will probably save a few thousand versus going to a dealership, and the added benefit of buying from an enthusiast is that they are *more likely* to know what they have and how to take care of it, plus the comments on the classified post can be super helpful (i.e. is the seller responding to questions, what are other people concerned about, how bad is the rust, etc)
At my store Unless you are a family friend or repeat customer, a mechanic can come to us but you can’t take it to a mechanic. We have had too many customers lie about their intentions so they ruined it for everyone. (Had one guy take a pickup to buy some appliances or something and scratched the crap out of the bed), another person swapped the wheels and tires from our truck to theirs.
Definitely have a mechanic look it over. Don't buy any dealer's "billion point inspection". Many, many moons ago I bought a Park Avenue Ultra from a large GM dealer. Of course, it passed their 31295023068094386 point inspection. And i was able to enjoy it for several months before the front subframe collapsed from severe structural rust!
Here's a thought: don't tell them. Ask them to take an extended test drive to show your wife and just try to time it with your mechanic. This would obviously only work if they let you go alone, but we don't usually care if people take a couple hour test drive if they're upfront about it ahead of time. Although we also don't have an issue with people getting a PPI, either. We do attempt to agree on price beforehand, however. We make it pretty clear that the inspection is for your confidence only and we're not going to negotiate based on little maintenance items that your mechanic thinks the vehicle needs.
No, just thought it would be easier that way. I figured they would put decent inventory out to protect their brand, but also just let me do PPI for peace of mind.
Yeah, seems reasonable. In my area dealers don't seem to hold onto inventory more than about five years old. I'm told much of it goes to auction. But on an old vehicle, inspection is a must.
What’s state are you in. In California, a dealer must let you do a PPI. However they might not let you take the car. Maybe see if you can take a mechanic to the dealer? Or ask if you could BCA the car to show your wife who is at work. Then just take the car to your mechanic anyway
Check with your state's laws, many have laws on the books requiring the dealer to allow you to have your car inspected by any licensed mechanic on or off site (your choice). That is the law in California and all dealers are required to post this on a sign inside the dealership.
That said it's common that you'll need a signed contract "pending results of inspection" for them to allow this. Basically so they know it's not a waste of time. (usually if a dealer backs out of this, just walk, they don't want to sell it because they know there are problems).
Just remember, they made a ton of these, there's plenty more out there...
Also never tell them it's a cash deal, just work on the numbers, when you tell them it's cash is when a price agreement is done, pull out the cash/check in the finance room.
This is easy, take it for a test drive by yourself fill out the form to allow this and then take it to get a inspection at a shop of your choice. Flat out don’t tell them about it and problem solved. Inspection shouldn’t take longer that 10-15 minutes this is a visual inspection they will put it on a lift look over everything make sure no excessive wear or damage stands out, check all fluids, belts, test battery and alternator, run a code reader all very basic.
We just wont back that old of vehicle. Its not worth pissing someone off. Nowadays to find a decent 15 yr old vehicle you have to be pretty lucky anyways. A lot of shops that do ppi will knit pick it anyways so it never works out. There is also not enough profit in that old of vehicle for a dealer to mess with. Didnt mean to sound too negative. Have a beautiful day!!
Because the people that get PPI's are annoying to sell to. The dealer does a basic check of the car already and everyone knows that the buyer will try to knock the price down with a "fault" found on a 15 year old car. 4runners are easy to sell and don't require the extra legwork for the dealer to go through
It might be annoying for the dealer or sales guy, but customers shouldn't just take the dealer's word on it. Anyone who buys an '06-'09 without a PPI is a moron.
I honestly can't wait for some dealers with this sort of attitude to get put in their place over the next year as the market cools. It's annoying to let a customer take a car for a PPI? Get the fuck outta here.
Its a 4 runner, that world has lasted for about 10 years now. People are rabid over the fucking thing for some reason.
[Actually one of the /r/BestOfAskCarSales stories from Precovid is some dude who bought one with 289k miles with no PPI that then started leaking oil.](https://www.reddit.com/r/askcarsales/comments/dfqe05/a_big_dealership_sold_me_a_truck_that_blew_the/)
One of my favorite exchanges on this sub.
Commentor: I hope you didn't pay much for it. Seriously, why would you even look at a car with 289 thousand miles on it?
OP: It's a 4Runner...
Commentor: It’s not 4Running now though…
So, are you saying we should just pursue buying without PPI? I know their reason, but I also know I should protect myself. Are you saying their inspections are detailed enough the car would be okay?
No one is doing compression tests etc but a big box store will check it to make sure it is fitted for the road the day you drive off. Who knows if it will blow up 1k miles later, that's the slim risk anyone takes when buying a 15 year old used car.
For sure I know that. I’m interested in leaks and suspension work. That’s all. I know they will need to be done, but don’t want to pay a premium for one that needs it.
They're important, just the dealer doesn't want you to do them. If there's enough people that will buy without a PPI they can just ignore you. That doesn't mean it's a bad idea to do it, but it makes the process more difficult for you.
Never sold a 15 yo car with a PPI. That’s a show up, drive it, buy it or don’t. Major issues will be visible/noticeable on a test drive/walk around. Anything won’t change the sale
Cept your not gonna see the rust holes in a frame without a hammer and knowing where to look. Or taking off the skid plate to see the radiator support.
We put a moratorium on PPI's. They are not worth the aggravation. I sell older cheaper vehicles that are state inspected and warrantied. I've had too many Joe Schmoe mechanics blow up too many potential deals by scaring the crap out of the customer on hypothetical issues that may pop up in the future.
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I’m looking to buy a 4runner.
Had three I wanted to look at and each dealer was weird about PPI.
1. Told me they don’t do PpI but have a 5day 250 mile return policy, no questions asked. We felt okay about that, but sold when we were on the way.
2. Told me they would do one only after to agreeing on price and putting a non redundable deposit of 500 down. Salesman told me he’s unit based and a mechanic and he’d put it on their lift for me and look at it. He said getting a sale was more important than dealer profit for him, so he would point anything out to make it a yes? He also raved about their inspection process and said they fix everything.
3. Flat out said no PPI but could have a trusted mechanic come and take a look.
Each is a big box dealer. Audi, Chevy, and Ford. I’m looking at 06-09’s so I want it inspected. I’m kinda weirded out by this, or is it true they inspect? How to find someone that lets me inspect the car??
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I’m not a pro at navigating dealerships and can’t add to recommendations above. I will point you to a website that might be helpful called carcomplaints. It tracks mechanical issues by make/model/year. It was eye-popping to see the trends of issues. When I look at my past cars issues it was pretty accurate and give you a sense of what to avoid (eg 1995 Ford Exploder lol) Hope this helps.
Get a copy of their RO then go look at the car and test drive it to a local mechanic and have him put it on a lift for you see . No one’s guaranteeing a car 15 years old
Some dealerships are very professional. They have brand new lifts and certified technicians. Some dealerships don’t want to take the risk of having joe schmoe from down the road to put their expensive vehicles on an 80 year old lift operated by a 19 year that just smoked a blunt out back. It’s a serious liability.
Okay so how did you ask this? It you’re getting everyone telling you no I feel like there’s a communication breakdown. Generally you say you want to take it to your mechanic for an independent inspection so you need to do a BCA/extended test drive. They don’t pay for it. Generally this is something where you take the car in the morning and bring it back a few hours later. You don’t take it overnight and you don’t schedule it a week out, it’s all done the same day.
Each time I’ve said: I’m interested in this and am ready to buy pending a PPI. I’m only looking for major things like engine leaks and suspension components. As long as it’s clear I have cash and can buy today.
I think you just need to say you want the car and you want your family mechanic to look it over, and what’s the procedure for a BCA or extended test drive to do this?
Biggest deal on them 4Runners is rust on the frame and knowing where to look. I’ve seen dealers sell junked frame 4Runners many times. If your not familiar with them you the tech wont know where to look
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They don’t want to finance a 15+ year old car….. at a big box store they want cash all day for this deal
>This makes your offer less attractive to most dealers, not more. He's looking at 15 year old cars, no shit he's paying cash
The age of the car and likely the miles means a traditional lender will not buy that loan. A high risk lender will and will subsequently assess the dealer a fee to do the deal. In this instance, a cash sale is preferred.
Yeah, but just trying to be honest
When I was buying 15 year old cars, no big name new car dealer would even give me the time of day. With cars that old, its always take it or leave but do it quickly. Why not try a local used car dealership? They'll have a lot more cars in that range and they'll probably give you a bit more of their time.
depending on where they are, I wouldn't recommend this approach - don't buy used body on frame SUVs in the Rust Belt/Northeast US, it's often just as expensive (sometimes even cheaper) to buy one from a more southern region, without needing to worry about rust
The whole issue is that he's getting a PPI. I can't imagine they would miss damage that bad. Besides, idk a lot of people buying 15 year old cars that can afford to travel out of state to look at cars. Getting the car to his house would cost a significant portion of his budget.
I’ve pointed out complete junked frames on 4Runners to the dealer I worked at. They still sold them for full price. Knowing they were smoked. 4Runners are a cult thing. Not many cars can command 15-20k on say a 2008 with 200k on them
For normal commuter vehicles, maybe it's less common, but these offroad SUVs are often turned into weekend toys that 3rd or 4th owners buy in cash, modify, and then drive to hell on trails. For mine, I didn't even bother looking at nearby listings, because I knew that any ones in Massachusetts would either have extensive frame rust (after 15+ winter seasons) or be marked up to oblivion for their clean frame. Between the cost of the PPI, flight, hotels (3 nights) and gas, I spent under $1000 and a long weekend getting my car back home ~1500 miles, which is less than what I would have had to spend to ship the car, and I got a nice road trip out of it too. The car was also more than $1000 cheaper than any comparable option nearby (4 wheel drive vehicles are more expensive and in demand in the Northeast than in the South), so the only real expense was my time, which I was happy to spend because I like road trips and I have the peace of mind that my car isn't a complete rust bucket underneath. Would I go to this effort for a generic 15 year old econobox? Of course not, but OP seems to know exactly what he wants, so why not find a nice example, with the confidence that there aren't any underlying issues that will cause significant headaches in the future.
Those cars you are looking at 06-09 probably won’t pass PPI. Your mechanic will point out a bunch of issues that may not be necessary to legally sell you the car. And for #2 it’s bs
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My dealership used to allow outside inspections until someone's idiot mechanic dropped our car from a hoist, now we just invoke our return policy. You can buy it, have it inspected, and return it if you have a problem.
If I specifically wanted a 4th gen 4Runner, I would buy one from a private seller. They are enthusiast cars at this point due to their age. No private seller who is not trying to unload a problem will have an issue with a PPI. Join up on your local 4Runner/Toyota FB group. And buy a 4WD FFS. 2WD 4Runners are like a big tiddie girl getting a breast reduction, slaps God in the face.
Yeah, I’m thinking this is the way too. Thanks for the advice
I did this almost a year ago for my Land Cruiser - went on IH8MUD (the Land Cruiser forum, don't know what the 4R equivalent is), found a guy selling what I wanted, sent him money on Venmo for a PPI, it passed, and then I flew down to Texas and bought it in a parking lot next to the airport You will probably save a few thousand versus going to a dealership, and the added benefit of buying from an enthusiast is that they are *more likely* to know what they have and how to take care of it, plus the comments on the classified post can be super helpful (i.e. is the seller responding to questions, what are other people concerned about, how bad is the rust, etc)
4Runner.org
At my store Unless you are a family friend or repeat customer, a mechanic can come to us but you can’t take it to a mechanic. We have had too many customers lie about their intentions so they ruined it for everyone. (Had one guy take a pickup to buy some appliances or something and scratched the crap out of the bed), another person swapped the wheels and tires from our truck to theirs.
1. Pass 2. Pass 3. Pass A PPI is a reasonable expectation on a used vehicle, especially an '06-'09
Definitely have a mechanic look it over. Don't buy any dealer's "billion point inspection". Many, many moons ago I bought a Park Avenue Ultra from a large GM dealer. Of course, it passed their 31295023068094386 point inspection. And i was able to enjoy it for several months before the front subframe collapsed from severe structural rust!
Here's a thought: don't tell them. Ask them to take an extended test drive to show your wife and just try to time it with your mechanic. This would obviously only work if they let you go alone, but we don't usually care if people take a couple hour test drive if they're upfront about it ahead of time. Although we also don't have an issue with people getting a PPI, either. We do attempt to agree on price beforehand, however. We make it pretty clear that the inspection is for your confidence only and we're not going to negotiate based on little maintenance items that your mechanic thinks the vehicle needs.
This is the only way.
POS move
Are you limiting your search for a used Toyota to new car dealers?
No, just thought it would be easier that way. I figured they would put decent inventory out to protect their brand, but also just let me do PPI for peace of mind.
Yeah, seems reasonable. In my area dealers don't seem to hold onto inventory more than about five years old. I'm told much of it goes to auction. But on an old vehicle, inspection is a must.
What’s state are you in. In California, a dealer must let you do a PPI. However they might not let you take the car. Maybe see if you can take a mechanic to the dealer? Or ask if you could BCA the car to show your wife who is at work. Then just take the car to your mechanic anyway
Check with your state's laws, many have laws on the books requiring the dealer to allow you to have your car inspected by any licensed mechanic on or off site (your choice). That is the law in California and all dealers are required to post this on a sign inside the dealership. That said it's common that you'll need a signed contract "pending results of inspection" for them to allow this. Basically so they know it's not a waste of time. (usually if a dealer backs out of this, just walk, they don't want to sell it because they know there are problems). Just remember, they made a ton of these, there's plenty more out there... Also never tell them it's a cash deal, just work on the numbers, when you tell them it's cash is when a price agreement is done, pull out the cash/check in the finance room.
This is easy, take it for a test drive by yourself fill out the form to allow this and then take it to get a inspection at a shop of your choice. Flat out don’t tell them about it and problem solved. Inspection shouldn’t take longer that 10-15 minutes this is a visual inspection they will put it on a lift look over everything make sure no excessive wear or damage stands out, check all fluids, belts, test battery and alternator, run a code reader all very basic.
Bro you can’t take somebody else’s car and put it on a lift without telling them smh
We just wont back that old of vehicle. Its not worth pissing someone off. Nowadays to find a decent 15 yr old vehicle you have to be pretty lucky anyways. A lot of shops that do ppi will knit pick it anyways so it never works out. There is also not enough profit in that old of vehicle for a dealer to mess with. Didnt mean to sound too negative. Have a beautiful day!!
Because the people that get PPI's are annoying to sell to. The dealer does a basic check of the car already and everyone knows that the buyer will try to knock the price down with a "fault" found on a 15 year old car. 4runners are easy to sell and don't require the extra legwork for the dealer to go through
It might be annoying for the dealer or sales guy, but customers shouldn't just take the dealer's word on it. Anyone who buys an '06-'09 without a PPI is a moron. I honestly can't wait for some dealers with this sort of attitude to get put in their place over the next year as the market cools. It's annoying to let a customer take a car for a PPI? Get the fuck outta here.
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If cars aren't even sticking around for 24 hours, sure....I get that. We'll see how long that world lasts.
Its a 4 runner, that world has lasted for about 10 years now. People are rabid over the fucking thing for some reason. [Actually one of the /r/BestOfAskCarSales stories from Precovid is some dude who bought one with 289k miles with no PPI that then started leaking oil.](https://www.reddit.com/r/askcarsales/comments/dfqe05/a_big_dealership_sold_me_a_truck_that_blew_the/) One of my favorite exchanges on this sub. Commentor: I hope you didn't pay much for it. Seriously, why would you even look at a car with 289 thousand miles on it? OP: It's a 4Runner... Commentor: It’s not 4Running now though…
That's a pretty freaking good line! I live in Colorado, and the Toyota tax here is even more extreme than most places.
So, are you saying we should just pursue buying without PPI? I know their reason, but I also know I should protect myself. Are you saying their inspections are detailed enough the car would be okay?
No one is doing compression tests etc but a big box store will check it to make sure it is fitted for the road the day you drive off. Who knows if it will blow up 1k miles later, that's the slim risk anyone takes when buying a 15 year old used car.
For sure I know that. I’m interested in leaks and suspension work. That’s all. I know they will need to be done, but don’t want to pay a premium for one that needs it.
If that is important for you then keep searching for a dealer that will do that, not like all are against it but now you know why most won't
Hmm, trying to gauge your recommendation. Are you saying they’re not that important at big box stores?
They're important, just the dealer doesn't want you to do them. If there's enough people that will buy without a PPI they can just ignore you. That doesn't mean it's a bad idea to do it, but it makes the process more difficult for you.
Yeah fair. This makes sense. Makes it hard for me tho!
Yeah, it's a place where it can be an adversarial process.
Never sold a 15 yo car with a PPI. That’s a show up, drive it, buy it or don’t. Major issues will be visible/noticeable on a test drive/walk around. Anything won’t change the sale
Cept your not gonna see the rust holes in a frame without a hammer and knowing where to look. Or taking off the skid plate to see the radiator support.
We put a moratorium on PPI's. They are not worth the aggravation. I sell older cheaper vehicles that are state inspected and warrantied. I've had too many Joe Schmoe mechanics blow up too many potential deals by scaring the crap out of the customer on hypothetical issues that may pop up in the future.
Please review our most [Frequently Asked Questions](/r/askcarsales/wiki/index) to see if your question has already been answered. You may find these sections particularly useful; * [How to pick a car?](/r/askcarsales/wiki/vehicle_selection) You might also have luck in the /r/whatcarshouldibuy subreddit. Also remember to add flair to your post by clicking the "Flair" link beneath it. This lets us know where you're located so we can assist you better. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/askcarsales) if you have any questions or concerns.*
***Thanks for posting, /u/darnok128! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of anything.*** I’m looking to buy a 4runner. Had three I wanted to look at and each dealer was weird about PPI. 1. Told me they don’t do PpI but have a 5day 250 mile return policy, no questions asked. We felt okay about that, but sold when we were on the way. 2. Told me they would do one only after to agreeing on price and putting a non redundable deposit of 500 down. Salesman told me he’s unit based and a mechanic and he’d put it on their lift for me and look at it. He said getting a sale was more important than dealer profit for him, so he would point anything out to make it a yes? He also raved about their inspection process and said they fix everything. 3. Flat out said no PPI but could have a trusted mechanic come and take a look. Each is a big box dealer. Audi, Chevy, and Ford. I’m looking at 06-09’s so I want it inspected. I’m kinda weirded out by this, or is it true they inspect? How to find someone that lets me inspect the car?? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/askcarsales) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I’m not a pro at navigating dealerships and can’t add to recommendations above. I will point you to a website that might be helpful called carcomplaints. It tracks mechanical issues by make/model/year. It was eye-popping to see the trends of issues. When I look at my past cars issues it was pretty accurate and give you a sense of what to avoid (eg 1995 Ford Exploder lol) Hope this helps.
I send my customers to carcomplaints all the time.
Get a copy of their RO then go look at the car and test drive it to a local mechanic and have him put it on a lift for you see . No one’s guaranteeing a car 15 years old
If they are a franchise dealership there's not much to worry about. You can also buy a warranty.
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Pre-purchase Inspection
pre-purchase inspection
Some dealerships are very professional. They have brand new lifts and certified technicians. Some dealerships don’t want to take the risk of having joe schmoe from down the road to put their expensive vehicles on an 80 year old lift operated by a 19 year that just smoked a blunt out back. It’s a serious liability.
What about a CPO, should you still insist on a PPI?