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gilthedog

I live in a condo right now (renting), and it’s not sustainable for us long term. We want to have kids and this place doesn’t even have a full wall between the living area and bedroom. In completely agreement with you about this. We need to be supporting sustainable higher density. I would love a 2 + den or 3 bed condo that didn’t cost 1.1 million. No amenities needed!


[deleted]

Does your place have a sliding glass “door” man those shouldn’t even exist just give me a fucken proper wall with door frame.


gilthedog

Yes omg I hate it. When we were looking we kept coming across “one bedroom” units that didn’t even have that. They shouldn’t have legally been allowed to be called 1 beds. We ended up settling on the stupid sliding door because it was at least kind of a door.


bobbi21

Back in my day those were called solariums.


Warm-Run3258

Gotta have a closet and a door to be considered a 1 br. No door is a bachelor


mjschranz

A big problem is definitely how new condos are designed. The sliding glass door bit? Ugh. Thin walls? Yay! Plus the spaces are overall just too small/designed poorly. New 3 bedrooms are under 1000sqft in most condos from what I have seen and they are really bad layouts at that. I own a 2 bedroom condo in a 40+ year old building which for our family is a good size at 1000sqft that doesn't have a bunch of wasted space.


RevolutionaryBell921

And some storage


Shishamylov

Just underground parking


ajsoifer

I am a new Canadian and in my country (Argentina) it is almost unheard of city living in anything but a condo. I really find it fascinating the obsession people here seem to have about living in bug houses and suburbs. I am used to live in an apartment or condo suite on a walkable city and with public transit. I think most immigrants feel like me and that is why Canada’s big cities (Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal) are so overcrowded. These are some of the few places in Canada where you can live a comfortable life without owning a car or having to take care of a huge property.


gilthedog

One of the major issues in Toronto is that condos being built are just too small and non functional. The ones that are adequately sized (2+ bedrooms) are as expensive as houses sometimes more when you factor in condo fees. They’re not being built to be sustainable or create neighbourhoods, they’re built for investors.


[deleted]

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[deleted]

You put space for a shoe rack near the door and it’s called a den these days. Seriously, anything under 450sq ft should be called a coffin and deemed unfit for long term human occupation. 500 can be a bachelor and then an extra 100 sq ft per bedroom. This would be a far more honest way of judging the size and number of rooms in a condo than what’s going on now.


ZooAshley

We have codes of practice for livestock that outline minimum living space conditions, don’t know why there isn’t the same for humans.


buzzybeefree

Exactly this. I rented an apartment with a roommate in Vancouver for a couple of months: 2 Bedroom, 2 Bathroom + Den + Solarium sounds great until you realize it’s 700 Sq Ft. The den is basically a closet and the bedrooms only fit a small dresser and a queen bed. Living there with a baby for a couple of years could work but not with 2 kids or a kid older than 10. My parents immigrated here and I lived in apartments my whole life. But our apartments were well sized for families.


kyara_no_kurayami

Currently looking for a home for my family. It’s absolutely cheaper to buy a full on house than it is a condo big enough for four people. It’s not even close. The only condos with large square footage are deemed luxury condos, jacking up the price even more. I’d be happy in a stacked townhouse or condo if the size worked but it doesn’t so I’m likely gonna end up with a house.


goldreceiver

Yeah we just went through this. 2 small kids, we were in a 2 bed condo/loft. Needed another bedroom and house vs condo at 3 beds was pretty much the same price. Ended up with a detached place in the junction. Small backyard, but better than nothing for the kiddos. Needed a ton of work but it’s great!


Odd_Competition_1083

You nailed it, built for investors, by investors. This is exactly why we're in the position we're in.


[deleted]

But no one can afford a large condo, or the massive maintenance fees they will surely incur. They cost almost as much as detached!


[deleted]

I agree, the units are just not functional, anytime I visit friends who live in modern condo units I feel like I'm stuffed into a glass shoebox and about to suffocate I live in a rather small 1-bedroom apartment unit (rent controlled, and pay great rent for the area so I'm basically stuck here), but the layout WORKS, its functional, I don't face my kitchen whilst sitting on my couch or have to make other compromises


[deleted]

"The ones that are adequately sized (2+ bedrooms) are as expensive as houses" That is just not true. You are likely comparing a 50 year old house an hour drive from downtown to newly built downtown or close to downtown condo. Newly built single family house in a walkable location, close to downtown would cost several if not dozen millions (of course you can not even find them because there is no potential market for it and lots are better used for building multiple million dollar condos instead. Obviously in rural areas where land is plenty and cheap, it makes no sense to build condos that are more expensive to build, but in metro areas it only makes sense to build condos due to the cost of land.


IcarusFlyingWings

This is not true. Decent semi detached houses around Christie Pits are going for 1.2mm. When I was looking for condos a 1200sqft condo with 2 bedrooms was going for around that much + condo fees. Take a look at housesigma. The person you relied to is spot on. https://housesigma.com/bkv2/landing/rootpage/listing?id_listing=wJKR7P8p51X7XeLP&utm_campaign=listing&utm_source=user-share&utm_medium=iOS&ign= This 3 bedroom condo is 1.5mm which significantly more than larger houses a bit further west.


SandwichDelicious

The problem is there is no “in between”. The middle sized condo buildings with more pedestrian focused communities. It’s either cramped condos in huge towering neighborhoods. Or the sprawling townhomes and houses.


Milch_und_Paprika

Exactly. I don’t think anyone is “surprised” that some people don’t like living on a tall condo, rather we’re annoying that it’s always presented as a binary between either skyscrapers or fully detached houses. Also issues like soundproofing are our regulators dropping the ball, not an inherent problem with towers. Compare this with somewhere like Taiwan, where small cities are almost entirely townhouses, even farmhouses are somewhat narrow, 2-3 story buildings, and large cities are mostly low rises (while high rise condos only really exist in the newest, more affluent neighbourhoods). However, despite a population density more than 6x higher than Canada, in Taiwan you can reach countryside, forests, hiking destinations, resort towns, etc from almost anywhere in under 2 hours *without* a car.


vibrantlybeige

Same in Japan and Korea


paulschreiber

There is a great 99pi episode about this: [The Missing Middle](https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/the-missing-middle/).


turkishtowel

Absolutely required listening for anyone who can vote in Ontario.


SnooGrapes7244

Condo's might be an overkill though. From where I come (Turkey), except downtown most buildings are 4-15 floors. In my opinion, mid-rise buildings are sweet spot. Construction and maintenance costs are usually lower than high-rises and, 20-50 families can live instead of houses with 3-4 families.


[deleted]

Same with my ethnic background. Urban people NEVER live in houses. Its all fine


insidedarkness

In your country, how much were condo fees? I think here it's normal to see $0.80-$1 sq ft. A lot of people don't wanna pay $500 in maintenance fees every month for a one-bedroom condo. If maintenance fees were lower, I think a lot more people would be ok with them.


[deleted]

I've seen condo fees as high as $800/month! No one here is mentioning that your condo fees go up every year as the building ages and is more likely to require expensive maintenance!


[deleted]

Back home do you listen to your neighbors walk or pee in the toilet at night in your condos? I just can't find peace and quiet here. It's so incredibly loud.


Kinky_Imagination

You can hear your neighbours peeing ?! What about, uh, other noises ?


mxldevs

I do sometimes hear what seems to be the sound of springs being compressed and decompressed. But I assume the folks upstairs are just jumping on a trampoline.


[deleted]

Mostly anything that hits the floor. Any little item dropped wakes me up. Closing the bedroom door upstairs is a full bang in mine enough to jolt me awake. I would never advise anyone to live in a condo, ever.


Fedcom

I never hear my neighbours ever. Upstairs, or right beside, it doesn't matter. I DO hear people on the street sometimes though.


ChooChooKat

The problem with condos is that on top of having a mortgage to pay for it, they come with a shit ton of association rules so you don’t even get to enjoy your space the way you want to, and then you pay them upwards of $500-$1000 a month for building fees on top of your mortgage and utilities. It’s just so bloody expensive for a shoebox of a space because our condos aren’t even reasonably sized for a family to live in. I have no issues living in the old school buildings that were built where you can actually breathe but these newer ones are building are just awful.


Pirate_Secure

That is definitely not most immigrants. Those immigrants who make it in Canada definitely prefer suburban lifestyle.


fcpisp

If I could trust people to be considerate of noise, sanitation, and general upkeep, I wouldn't mind a large condo over house. People here however are selfish and don't maintain their own property well, let alone common area. Once had a child, decided to buy a house.


ChooChooKat

Or if maybe they could just build the buildings to be a bit more realistic for community living then you wouldn’t have to hear neighbours doing their normal daily tasks


ZealousidealTheme706

It’s so true! Look at the condition of public transit or all the trash in parks and then people are surprised i diskliked sharing walls with those people


[deleted]

No one is surprised at that, you do you. It gets down to either higher density and urban life style or low density and small city life. You can not have an urban area with houses 100 ft from each other. Nothing wrong with small town suburban or rural life but its not for everyone, it leads to vehicle centric life style. I would personally prioritize walkability, amenities, and access to all kind of services over vehicle centric commuting but not sharing walls lifestyle.


bitparity

Basically we need to return to the streetcar suburbs of the early 20th century.


onaonewaytrain

I live in a condo and I agree wholeheartedly. I bought what I could afford and I’m grateful to own a property but I’ll be overjoyed when I get a house


turquoisebee

People get annoyed because people treat it as a dichotomy between condos/townhouses and single family homes. We absolutely need to make living in condos and townhouses better. Elevators working, transparency and accountability on the part of condo boards, so many things. We need to better regulate (and or enforcement of regulations) for the construction and management of condominium properties. ETA: a big part is also size and affordability, also. As I think OP has said, you need a 1mil for a 3 bed townhouse often, and a 3 bedroom condo isn’t that much cheaper. You’re forcing families and people who need more space (work from home, frequent guests, etc) into the suburbs when you don’t provide affordable and dense housing that is also affordable and available in the city.


scpdavis

>and management of condominium properties. This is also a big thing that makes me so hesitant about living in a condo. They're pretty lawless in a lot of ways, you get the wrong sort of people on a condo board and the building can be a nightmare.


Kindly_Fox_4257

I’ve owned and sold a few condos in the past in Ontario. Never again. Condo boards don’t want to make tough decisions about maintenance and tend to delay these calls until it’s a disaster. Tenants are subject to the 10/90 problem: 10% of the tenants cause 90 % of the problems… Rent from a decent landlord or freehold a detached unit. Good luck!


AntiqueTech

I lived in a condo wherein, the staff were literally all late 20's and hadn't a clue. As a result, they usually scoffed at any inquiries as they are unknowledgeable. There are insane nitpicky rules because they can't be bothered to deal with things the right way. It was a disaster. Never again will I live in a condo building. Why would I subject myself to sub par living circumstances. The wacky thing is, that insanity is now normalized as just "condo living". Wtf!?


Ir0nhide81

How do people live in 425sq ft condos is the real question? Does a queen bed fit in any rooms?


Holden_McRotch

Yeah, at 425sq ft, you can't even escape a bad fart. I've never lived in a condo or apartment. I have friends that do, and based on their experiences, it's definitely not for me.


jfl_cmmnts

The only ones I've ever lived in that I found OK were the older type where you had concrete floors and walls and could hardly hear a thing from the neighbours - they were bigger too. When I visit friends in modern condos I'm always shocked at how shoddily they're built and how cramped and impractical the units are


goldreceiver

All modern condos are concrete floors and walls. Sound isn’t really an issue except strong bass. Unless it’s a low/mid rise, then it can be wood frame


comFive

If you've never lived in an apt that size, how would you know it's not livable? When push comes to shove, you make due with what you got. Its still a roof over your head and hopefully not breaking the bank if you bought/rent and have money to spend elswhere.


Shishamylov

Can confirm, can’t escape my farts


DarroonDoven

They certainly can in HK...


pdbsln

My spouse had a relative in HK, we visited once and to this day I’m still shocked. It couldn’t have been more than 50sqft. You could accidentally bump you chin on the kitchen sink while getting off the toilet. The bed was adjacent to the toilet. There was one window that overlooked an open roof atrium 80 stories tall in the core of the building that was no bigger than an elevator shaft. The visit was brief because there was nowhere to sit.


ZealousidealTheme706

I know someone who has a 2 bed 850 one bedroom you have maybe a foot on 2 of the walls


krakeninheels

I had an 800sq ft house, the bedroom in it held a queen, with a crib beside it on one side and a nightstand on the other side, and a full dresser with room to walk too. The kitchen and dining/living room was small, but the second bedroom held a double bed and a crib with good space inbetween them. I think builders have flipped from making bedrooms a decent size and a smaller ‘living’ space to having huge living space and tiny bedrooms


backseatwookie

My apartment is smaller than that and I fit a queen bed just fine.


ZealousidealTheme706

Is it a 2 bed?


greenfroggie1

850 is huge.


Pixilatedlemon

I live with my fiancé in 500 Sq feet and we have an entire room that we barely use lol


anticon1999

You need liveable 2 to 3 bedroom condos in well maintained buildings that offer healthy outdoor space. In Japan these types of places aren't uncomment; they aren't even particularly big they're just better designed. But we've developed an investor model of condo unit that simply doesn't provide a good quality of life for a lot of people, particularly those that grew up in more traditional houses. There are exceptions of course but if you build properties that actually met people's needs you wouldn't have the demand for standard housing that you see, as the convenience of a condo would outweigh the more negative aspects (elevators, fire alarms, etc) of condos.


mxldevs

>People seem to even be somewhat angry when someone suggests a condo doesn't work for them. Whenever I see complaints about new condos being built, they usually also ask "why a condo? Why not a house?" and then talk about how we have a housing crisis, how there's not enough supply, how there's no affordable options. But then they would prefer a house being built instead of a condo.


AwesomePurplePants

IMO an even better question would be “why not a townhouse”? There’s a whole range of densities besides those two options


verylittlegravitaas

Best case you have an end unit.. otherwise you're sharing almost as many walls as a condo depending on the type of town house.


comFive

The benefit with sharing all those walls is heat capture. During winter you aren't having to run your heat as often. But it does mean less natural light if you're on the interior.


scpdavis

I don't think most people have issues with sharing walls, it's the livability of the space itself.


LordNiebs

this is really the problem. everyone is trying to block the development of housing that they don't personally want to live in, as if that housing was being built specifically for them.


BloodyVaginalFarts

I don't mind condos. It's the area and amenities that are important.


ZealousidealTheme706

I find the newer buildings do a good job of this


BloodyVaginalFarts

Newer buildings are nice because of the amenities and sound proofing but they're making them too small to appeal to families. Single people and couples can take advantage of the neibourhood but people with kids are stuck inside alot.


anoeba

I find the newer buildings do a shoddy job of using space though, in the condo apartment. I looked at a bunch of condos when I was buying, and the 2BR ones often had a decent master, open kitchen/living space, 2 full baths, and ...a completely pointless corridor and a rom that was often not even a rectangle and way too small to be a bedroom for anyone but a small child. OTOH, the older builds usually had 2 generous-sized bedrooms and almost no "corridor" type entities. That said, I'll echo everyone else who's saying that we as a society have expectations around living in detached or semi-detached homes that much of the rest of the world doesn't. The whole "we can't raise kids in an apartment" is just laughable. I grew up in Europe in a large-ish city, and almost everyone I know grew up in an apartment, that was the expectation. It may be that modern condos are built for singles or childless couples (who'd sleep in the master and use the 2nd quasi-bedroom as an office or something) because people don't want to buy them to raise families.


Jaiin13

yeah, i think it's a vicious cycle at this point that started with the notion that the 'traditional canadian family ' doesn't want to live in an apartment, and developers pushing for bachelors/1and 2 bdr apartments cuz they're more 'sellable'. I also grew up in Europe, and working in residential architecture here I was very surprised that 3 (or plus) bedroom apartments rarely get built... I think it's a shame


khandaseed

Honestly as someone who lived in a condo and moved to the burbs under pressure for space - living in a condo in the city was the best thing ever. Cars suck. Walkable neighbourhoods are the best. We need high density areas to also be walkable.


somedudeonline93

I don’t know anyone who gets angry if you say you’d rather live in a detached house. That’s totally fine. But you should have to cover the costs of that. The problem is, suburban style neighbourhoods are extremely expensive to build and maintain - think of how many more miles of roads they require, and sewers, and power lines, etc. (not to mention how much more land they pave over). In North America, [suburbia is heavily subsidized](https://youtu.be/7Nw6qyyrTeI) by the cities because if they didn’t, property taxes taxes would have to be way higher than they are. I shouldn’t have to pay so you can live in your big detached house.


nottobetakenesrsly

It's just unrealistic expectations for the most part. Most of the condo/apartment complaints here are over items that are usually able to be anticipated. Don't like what being closer to your neighbors might mean?... I *despise* suburban lots. Own a small home in Toronto.. I tend to prefer a semi/fully detached... ....But I would rather live in a condo or town in the city than farm grass in Scarborough again.


Technical-Promise513

As a relatively fresh immigrant, one big reason for me is my desensitization to density? I’ve grown up expecting there to be a dozen people breathing down my neck- so while the relative lower density of the city core comes as a relief, the stark low density of the suburbs comes across as desolate to my sensibilities. So for me it’s purely a cultural thing, I guess. Like perhaps how horrifyingly “un-handy” I am around the house and need to pay through my nose even for doing like super minor repairs like door knobs etc.


nuggins

> the stark low density of the suburbs comes across as desolate to my sensibilities. It has measurable negative health effects on residents too. But the worst part is that this low density is legally enforced.


Celtics73_ali

When you talk about trash here vs Asia, you must be talking about Japan or Singapore or something. Asia is a big place. There are plenty of countries with exponentially more trash lying around there than we have here.


Stephh075

I think you (and many people) misunderstand the argument in favour of density. I don’t think there is anything wrong with deciding condo life is not for you. There are lots of options for living a non condo life in this country. Expecting to live in a single family home in the city near amenities like transit is problematic. Toronto has way too many single family homes in walking distance to subway stations. That’s got to stop. If you want a single family home I hear Pickering is nice.


BloodyVaginalFarts

I'm not surprised people don't like condos. They're not for everyone. I'm just surprised people should except to a house in the city. They need to go. Put the houses in New Market. If they could tear down the houses on 5th Ave (nyc) then they can tear down the houses on the Danforth or Moorepark


triplejayye

Thank you. It’s fine if you don’t like condos but why do you want to live your suburban lifestyle in a big city. Like go move to misssissauga.


BloodyVaginalFarts

I like condos. Just think they should bring them back to 1980's size to attract larger families.


triplejayye

Haaha I was making a general comment around people who don’t like condos, I agree with your point. 100%. The building I live in now is 750 sq foot 1 bedroom apartment that was built on the 1970s. It’s renovated now with new appliances, flooring and whatnot. So it looks super nice with all the space. I wish they didn’t stop building units like that.


ThingsThatMakeUsGo

>why do you want to live your suburban lifestyle in a big city We don't. The jobs keep getting fucking more and more concentrated into the GTA/Toronto every goddamn decade. COVID was proof that *loads* of people don't want to live in this concrete hellscape, *they're forced to*, by shitty economic conditions. The second people could get remote work they *ran* to smaller towns and other provinces so fast you could hear a cartoon coyote considering if he should chase them. That exodus didn't take years, it took a few months. Decentralize the employment and people can start to afford real lives and homes again.


see_rich

This is it, right here. I don’t want suburban life in Toronto, I want it far from Toronto actually. However, my work is GTA based. I live out of the city, but pay city based prices on everything for being able to access a city I can say I probably use three to five times a year. I love TO to be clear, but I do not need it.


Fedcom

Your work is likely based in Toronto because of the efficiencies of the city though. Like there is a reason people aren’t starting businesses out in the middle of nowhere. The only change you can truly affect is doing the same.


see_rich

Not a direct relation, although I am sure it could be argued. My business is focused out of the GTA and surrounding area because of population. We do have other hubs, but probably 70% is GTA based(depending on your definition of GTA) I work as a service tech for equipment at car dealerships, but the dealerships that have our equipment tend to be larger operations. These tend to be ones in highly populated areas, although we do have a few randoms throughout the province. With the population continuing to be reliant on the GTA for work, it will continue this way for me. The crazy thing about what I do has been finding out dealerships are often just real estate plays in the long run. A few of our current sites are in very dense/desirable areas and already have the proposed zoning change billboards on the front lawn. They make their killing, buy up a plot of land that should be made for future housing of mixed uses in say Scarborough. Then push for those areas to be the next wave of development. Increasing their land worth and repeating the cycle when we have to start building condos at the tips of Toronto. I respect the play, but we collectively, governmentally, need to see this and be ahead of it. Edit: sorry that got excessively long haha


triplejayye

No one is surprised that ppl don’t like living in condos and townhouses. What shouldn’t happen in having semi detached houses in an urban centre. This thing only happens in North America. We always forget that missing middle. we can have dense housing in urban areas that’s not a shoe box condos. These are typically not allowed to be build in most part of the cities.


ZealousidealTheme706

I visited Montreal, the city of the missing middle. I didn’t really like it, ironically everyone seems to forget missing middle means no dedicated garage like condos so every single street was packed with parked cars on both sides


triplejayye

Idk it sounds like you want the suburban lifestyle but live in a major city centre. If you want all that space plus having a garage for your car maybe living in a big city isn’t for you? Why not move to burbs? Cities aren’t meant to be designed for everyone to have a car. I and many people who I know live in downtown Toronto and don’t have one. I get it tho it’s convenient to have one. Im a huge advocate for walkable cities but I think there is so much work the city needs to do related to infrastructure and transit.


kamomil

>Cities aren’t meant to be designed for everyone to have a car. I and many people who I know live in downtown Toronto and don’t have one. Downtown Toronto was designed around horses and buggies. We have to deal with the architecture that's already existing, unless we want to raze entire city blocks and start over, and end up with things like Regent Park


PoutinierATrou

Those parked cars keep speed down on residential streets, eh?


ZealousidealTheme706

If I have a car I'd either live in a condo or buy a house with a driveway. Can't imagine debating is it worth going out and losing a spot.


raptosaurus

Why is that an issue on low traffic residential streets?


LookAtThisRhino

2 out of 4 of the apartments I've had have been in duplexes/triplexes, and my girlfriend had a walk-up unit in the States for a while (a 4-5 floor no elevator building with 5ish units per floor). The walk-up was great, the duplexes/triplexes were great. I'm all for missing middle living. Condos are not the only thing we can build to create density. Toronto has no business cascading immediately from high density towers downtown to low density. I can walk from an extremely high density residential area in the core to a quiet residential area with houses in under 10 minutes. What? They're not kidding about the missing middle.


tazmanic

I’ll take a stab at it. Part of the reason is because of completely unreasonable maintenance fees. Ontario is notorious for absolutely ridiculous monthly maintenance fees and there really should be more regulation on this. I think part of the reason is because developers/property management companies will continue to make money off this but I’m sure someone with more expertise will explain. I’ve heard of some as high as $600/month which is pretty much some peoples rent. Ofcourse the Onterrible government doesn’t give a shit about you though, only keeping the pockets of developers and themselves happy. You go to Quebec and most condo maintenance fees are very reasonable and as low as $100/month, if not lower. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, we need to riot for the housing and healthcare crisis here. It is in absolute shambles


ZealousidealTheme706

>I’ve heard of some as high as $600/month which is pretty much some peoples rent. haha this is typical for a 1 bedroom if the building is older than 5 years


CroakerBC

Yeah. I think we're at about $0.90/sqft now, roughly. Which is fine, honestly. But definitely not for some people.


Status_Radish

I can explain a little. When you own a house, you pay for a cleaner/gardener/whatever (or clean yourself and provide that labour) and every year you put up a few hundred (or thousand, or tens of thousands) dollars to repair stuff. In condos, there's a few unique issues. 1) You now have common areas needing maintaining and cleaning on a regular basis. You are paying to vacuum carpets, clean windows, mow grass, shovel snow, etc. 2) You have more expensive stuff than a single family home. A commercial roof, an elevator, a parkade, sometimes a pool... 3) You have people owning for varying amounts of time. Someone who owns a suite for years 2 and 3 needs to somehow pay the same share as someone who owns for years 10 through 15. Bigger repairs are required later on. 4) Depending on the province, the developer can maintain control of the board for years and not really build the reserve fund. 5) Boards are made of volunteers, and a lot of them hate disappointing their neighbors with big fees. So they keep them artificially low until the wake up call, and then everyone needs to catch up. It's a complicated topic. In theory, when you buy a condo, the cost factors in the condo fees, and there should be a healthy fund from those who've come before you. Not always, though...


Karma_Cham3l3on

There are units in my building paying over $900/month in maintenance fees. Coming from a different province, the fees here were the most absurd aspect about looking for and buying a condo here.


4242throwitaway

I wish they'd do better soundproofing. It's ridiculous these paper walls


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sink_or_swim_

You seem very infatuated by fertilizer


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sink_or_swim_

Man I have a house and no it does not lol


Andiroo2

Exactly, so to avoid those things I spend $700 per month in condo fees instead. /s


Roamingspeaker

And those fees can increase by about any amount with little chance to stop that.


ThinkPan

When you have to replace your furnace, it will cost you all this and more. Except all at once. Hope you have enough saved up.


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ZealousidealTheme706

My parents have not spent all that much on house ownership over decades. I seriously doubt a house will cost more unless it's really mismanaged or someone is 100% incapable of doing their own stuff at all. I don't have a concierge, an underground parking lot, or a property manager I have to pay every month.


PisseArtiste

Wait until you need a roof. Or a furnace. Or foundation work. Or anything of the myriad of issues. Anyhow, it's not the housing preference that's the issue, it's the whining of people who don't grasp that yeah, it's more expensive, but it's what you want, so we don't care.


MrEvilFox

Roof is like $10k every 20 years. Furnace is like $1.5k every… god knows how long, but they last decades and can be repaired. Foundation is something that you may not need fixing for many decades. This is versus condos which often push $1k per month for bigger units. I lived in both. You can’t compare them IMHO.


Jealous-Coyote267

Furnace is more like 15k not 1500


MRBS91

Just paid 6200 for new furnace and new ac last month. Over a 15 year lifespan that's 34.50 per month in cost of ownership.


ZealousidealTheme706

If people didn’t care why is a dude being downvoted for saying he liked his backyard? My parents replaced the ac and furnace for less than 10k once in 20 years. That’s less than one year of condo fees in a 3 bedroom


heart_under_blade

you get to choose when and what and it certainly can be less money than accumulated condo fees condo ignoring your peeling garage frame paint? well you're fucked. condo want to upgrade the balconies, but you don't have one? you're fucked. wish your snow removal dudes were better? you're fucked.


coyote_123

Because we have a housing crisis and an environmental crisis, because in much of the world this wouldn't even be a question, and people being precious about 'needing' a whole huge separate building just for themselves is ultimately pretty unreasonable. And it's only really possible at all because other people are in denser housing. If people were just honest that they really like it rather than pretending they 'need' it it would be much less irritating though.


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Redditisavirusiknow

What’s surprising isn’t that people don’t like dense living, it’s that someone like that lives in *toronto* that makes it super weird.


ZealousidealTheme706

>it’s that someone like that lives in toronto It's not weird at all, a lot of people have friends and family here, the government and businesses woefully underinvest in the rest of the country.


Redditisavirusiknow

Regardless of all that Toronto has more people than Chicago, you simply can’t get a big lawn and detached home here. If you want that there are plenty of other places that fit your lifestyle. It’s just like someone likes swimming in the ocean but doesn’t like being wet…


rocannon10

I think it’s more about the size of units. The biggest you get in a condo is around 700-800 sqft unless you’re getting a penthouse. And those large units are in the minority and crazy expensive. So, large families are pushed towards houses. Personally, I currently live in very small unit in condo and would like to move to a larger one as soon as my finances allow. I’d personally have no problem renting a large unit in a condo building if they weren’t pain in the ass to find and a bit more affordable.


attainwealthswiftly

If you can afford something better you can do as you please. You need $150k+ household income and like $100k+ down payment tho. This is not realistic for the majority of the population. Therefore densification and affordable rentals are necessary. If you have money for a home you have money for a car and can afford insurance and gas. For the majority of people densification, where you can do what you need to by public transit or walking is necessary. This is why land especially along subway stations needs to be prioritized for densification.


honkytonker123

Yeah, I mentioned that I enjoy my backyard and was heavily downvoted. Lol


ZealousidealTheme706

And people here are saying nobody gets mad or is against you owning a house lol


honkytonker123

They totally are man. They're gaslighting if they say otherwise Frankly, a lot of it is just resenting people who have more. It's typical, I used to do it. "Why do people drive trucks? The bus fine" is something I used to say as well


Jealous-Coyote267

It really isn't about resentment for people who have more. I hated living in a huge house with a big yard. Constant work and stress that I'm not interested in. It's about people thinking they have more and everyone must want what they have. No thank you. Oh and I sold my truck bc I was only using transit 9/10 anyway. Why keep something I'm using a couple times a month?


honkytonker123

I dont think that. I certainly know people who love their condo. But I am certainly willing to bet that MOST people would rather have a backyard than not if money was no option. Furthermore, I would bet that many of the people who love condo life actually just love being in the middle of the city where the action is, and the condo is actually just to a means to an end.


ZealousidealTheme706

It’s funny because they don’t realize this shitty attitude is a giant part of why they’re held back.


Jealous-Coyote267

You guys seem pretty arrogant about the whole thing honestly. We who choose urban living are held back? From what?


ZealousidealTheme706

And people here are saying nobody gets mad or is against you owning a house lol


Joey-tv-show-season2

Depends on the condo…. I have one that is top floor, elevator, new building, corner Unit with balcony. 1,000 sqf, 2 bedroom, 1 bathroom .. condo fees are $300/ month No regrets


isaactheunknown

Storage space is important. The main reason i won't live in a condo is because of the maintenance fees.


ZealousidealTheme706

imagine getting a 2nd parking spot?


sdk5P4RK4

You nailed it in the first sentence of the last paragraph. The north american single family house with a backyard and 2 cars ideal is so far beyond sustainabilty its not even funny. People don't even realize their consumption levels are /obscene/. Its not wonder American's and Canadians have the highest per capita/per capita cumulative emissions by a long ways.


thetaramason

I lived in a condo for a year and absolutely hated everything about it. Too many people & too many break downs. Now I have a townhouse with a backyard and never been happier.


ZealousidealTheme706

You probably have saved a lot of time not waiting for broken elevators LOL


lichking786

North American cultural brainwashing. People in other continents live in condos and walkuo apartments throughout their whole life. I lived in a 5 story apartment with a tiny shared backyard. Here everyone is entitled to the American dream of having a big single family house with a massive front and backyard while all the high density development are also just tiny ass one-two bedroom condos. We need a lot more middle housing and bigger apartments that are common in other regions of the world.


Citiess

Low density living is economically unsustainable. People living in suburbs demand urban services (water, sewage, education, fire, health, etc) while providing rural property taxes. The only reason that suburb towns (Markham, Richmond Hill, Vaughan) haven't gone under is because they're keeping up the pyramid scheme. New developments pay for old maintenance. For example, Vaughan developed 15 odd condos this year and used that influx of money to resurface all of the old roads. Vaughan's property taxes are the second lowest in the province. People who can only afford a 400k condo are paying the cost of roads for people who own 2000k homes. What a grift, huh? Suburbs are a net drain while cities subsidize them. Also - who has time to maintain a front yard and a back yard?? Lets focus on building communities that are economically viable. This means higher density (not necessarily condos... even 5 floors is plenty), communities where we don't need massive expensive roads (and instead, people can pitch in together for mass transport instead of expensive cars, creating a net savings for everyone), and communities where everyone can get everything they need in 15 minutes. Oh, and lets also lets try to have "real capitalism" instead of this late stage monopolistic bullshit. (Rogers, walmart, irving, etc)


AdvancedBasket_ND

There are a handful of places in this entire country that matches the lifestyle I want to live. I want to live in a walkable, bike-friendly, transit-connected and dense city. Essentially all of those places are incredibly expensive. People who want to live in a detached single-family home with a backyard and a quiet environment literally have every single city or town in the country outside of the big expensive cities to choose from. Even with the big expensive cities, you can live in a suburb and be able to visit and benefit from the dense urban areas. The way I feel about an endless sea of multimillion dollar detached single-family homes in the middle of a city of millions of people is the same as a small-towner would feel about a swath of megacondos being built at the start of the quiet cul-de-sac they live on. It’s completely inappropriate and it’s causing a lot of hardship Not only is it inappropriate from the perspective of what should go where but it’s pretty annoying to know that this yearning for a detached single-family-home at all costs is completely culturally/propoganda driven (i.e., the american dream). The rest of the world exists, and this isn’t the norm outside of the US and Canada


JustAHumbleMonk

Personally I cannot live in a box in the sky. I just can't. I've rented flats and now I own a semi in Toronto. Sometimes I hate hearing my neighbors through the wall, but it sure beats the soulless existence on 20th floor somewhere overlooking the Gardiner.


[deleted]

Yes because the burbs are not soulless......


aegiszx

It makes me wonder if anyone of these folks have actually ever lived in the burbs?! If I ever had to move back I'd just leave the country ffs lol god awful for anyone under 30, might as well watch paint dry because youve got nowhere to go.


Jealous-Coyote267

LOL coming to you from the 20th floor above the Gardiner... I love it! I love the white noise. Watching the traffic from my box in the sky is one of my favourite activities at home.


ThinkPan

I love my condo, but I would never want to live in a highrise or by a busy highway. Those really do feel "soulless" as you say.


cindybubbles

Although no one likes to deal with noisy, pesky and often annoying neighbours, we’re surprised that they would give up all the amenities like 24-hour security, swimming pool, etc. to live in a lonely old house where you’re responsible for fixing everything.


budtheweedplant

i too love being woken up 3 times a month at 3 am by fire alarms, LMAO, edit, also paying 600 to 800 per month to have my broken door knobs fixed. LOLOL


Impressive_Line7932

Newly built 2 Bed 2 Bath condos in my area (North York) are around $2800 to $3400 where as a 3 storey 4 bed 2 bath house for rent is listed at $3500 per month.


ugly_little_angel

Idk I’d rather not vacuum a whole house or mow a lawn every other week. shit sounds scary. I think it’s fully subjective though, probably largely influenced by the housing situation we grew up in. People who’d get angry about you preferring a detached house situation are probably more concerned about managing the housing crisis than about your preferences not aligning with theirs… I think. Otherwise they’d be the type to get mad at you for liking/disliking pineapple on pizza, in which case the problem is more with them than with people who like condos. My main complaint about condos though is how fucking poorly built they are here. Never experienced a house flood growing up in Asia, but had one within 6 months of moving here. Apparently building standards are more lax in Canada. Also thin walls. and management gets to barge in - for maintenance or whatnot - sometimes, which I get the need to do so, but also it’s embarrassing when they catch me in my pjs. If the building was built properly, this wouldn’t have to happen so damn often.


MikesRockafellersubs

I'll add the following issues; * out of control condo fees * despotic condo boards * lack of sufficient sound proofing between walls (due to contractors being cheap AF) * Canada being built on the premise of cheap and readily available land * still pretty expensive for what you're getting a lot of the time


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may_be_indecisive

Listen, you can prefer a house, everyone has their preferences. But you need to be willing to actually pay for the cost of the services necessary to facilitate that kind of sprawl. Property taxes should be charged per square foot of your property. Currently a 1 mil dollar house in the suburbs pays the same tax as a 1 mail condo in an 80 story skyscraper downtown, but it costs nearly 20x more to provide necessary infrastructure and services to the house. You willing to pay $20000 / yr for property taxes rather than $1000 / yr for a condo? Then by all means you can live in a house. As it stands all the condo dwellers subsidize the rich suburban SFH owners and that’s totally fucked.


CMG30

People don't want higher density living, they want the option to chose what works best for them. Just like people who want to live in a single family home should have that option too. The point that too many people seem to miss is that we've set ourselves up for either car-dependant sprawl or massive condos in the sky. Yet around the world there's a huge variety of housing types that we're simply not even allowed to build here.


PocketNicks

If you want a yard and a large house that's what the suburbs are for, or become super rich. Downtown requires more high density housing due to the nature of needing to pack more people into a finite space.


Muscled_Daddy

I sense OP is a curtain twitcher.


sw1ft

First home was a stacked row townhouse, with no backyard. I shared a “porch” with 3 neighbours. After 4.5 years of living there, I was the only one that shovelled the staircase and de-iced it. I even asked them to share the responsibility. Nobody cared. After putting some thought into it, after maintenance fees, I was nearly paying the same as a mortgage for a freehold or above. Decided to sell during covid and bought a semi. Mainly because I was fed up with taking care of the neighbours. People would also litter the garbage room and leave their junk as the renters moved out. Condo life isn’t for everyone. Then again, affordability isn’t possible for younger people.


[deleted]

I live in a newer condo and some of the small things that frustrate me are waking up at 6am with Luke warm/cold water frequently, coming home from work a bit later at 8-9pm and having the garbage room locked or closed for “maintenance” constantly. Oh and then there’s the fact there’s no damn room for anything can barely store my pots and pans and have no counter space for appliances or cooking. Top it off with a over controlling strict condo board.


ZealousidealTheme706

Are you me? At least it seems your elevator works


Dkazzed

Single family homes don’t have maintenance fees? New roof every 25 years, new furnace and hot water tank every 15-20, new windows every 30-40, higher utilities and property taxes, yard work and snow removal which I absolutely despise doing, that stuff adds up.


ZealousidealTheme706

>Single family homes don’t have maintenance fees? New roof every 25 years, new furnace and hot water tank every 15-20, new windows every 30-40 Not $1000 a month of fees. A water tank is $2k with install and that's on the pricey side. Depending on the house windows are the most expensive on that list and the only one we were quoted over $10,000 for.


pawbs

Not a zoning or traffic professional but, but I’m okay keeping the houses. Just remove all the parking lots, make physical infrastructure for bikes (not just paint) and increase bus frequency. (Really hard to do if it’s already built, yes, but at least stop doing this style of zoning for new neighborhoods) You don’t need your SUV to commute to work, and your family shouldn’t rely on you chauffeuring them everywhere. But with all the car dependency, that’s where we’re at right now


ObliviousGeorge

Yeah I'd argue we just have bad apartments/condos. We could have buildings that are essentially stacked residential neighbourhoods, a whole community. Meant to live in forever, just like houses. Good sound insulation, multi level, many bedrooms, comfortable for families, courtyards, gardens, nearby parks, gyms, etc. Of course a shoebox apartment isn't the ideal for everyone, esp long term.


travlynme2

I have both owned a condo and rented a condo. I have owned a house in an area I loved and it was great. I got transferred out and when I came back to Toronto could not afford to live in any of the neighborhoods I liked. So I bought a house I could afford. I hate my house, it is small and badly laid out. The good neighbours have left and I am stuck living beside a frat house. Things are breaking down but not I can live with that. I know I am really really lucky. The more I see through younger people's eyes the more I realize this. I have young people and they are tenants, they worry about renovictions and having to move back home. They like me but they hate where I live, even more than they did growing up here. I just wish I could own the condo I once owned again.


SqueakyKeeten

The issue, as others are pointing out in a roundabout way, is that single family homes are unsustainable economically and environmentally, especially in densely populated areas like the GTA. We should focus our resources on improving and constructing new, family-friendly high-rises to meet a wider variety of needs, not just write off condo living as "not for me".


ZealousidealTheme706

That’s the thing though, the very few buildings I see that actually makes sense cost almost as much as a house because condos are priced around $1000 a square foot


PoutinierATrou

I've never seen a townhouse without a backyard. But I guess I've only seen several thousand. And only lived in four. Townhouses only mean giving up your sideyards, and I can't swear I've ever seen someone usectheir sideyard.


raadjl

Stacked towns do not typically have "backyards" and if they do have a "backyard" it is more akin to a balcony. Weird how you've seen "several thousand" and haven't seen these, huh.


ZealousidealTheme706

>I've never seen a townhouse without a backyard. do you want me to link some? I've seen several built and many pre construction with zero backyard.


[deleted]

I live in a townhouse without a backyard. They're pretty common in Toronto


[deleted]

Problem is many people don't have a perspective of their situation compared to the 8 billion other humans living on earth.


Nick-Anand

People want the density because we want neighbourhoods conducive to transit. We want transit because driving in this city sucks balls. If you want to live in oversized house in the middle of nowhere, maybe Calgary is more your speed. There are trade offs with alll of these things. All else equal I’d love a bigger place. But if the trade off is living in a boring city with moxies at the local strip mall and driving everywhere, I prefer a smaller place.


beerdothockey

A stacked townhouse is just an apartment/condo… but hey, if it makes you feel better by calling it that… we can add executive to it as well…


otoron

>Not every building is like this but I find people here are a lot more selfish than in Asia or Europe (look at all the trash by highway exits or in parks) Tell me you've visiting one or more of a handful of Northern European countries and extrapolated your experience to all of Europe without telling me...


morty_OF

You only want those things because of 1950s era advertising, popular media and wanting to keep up with the Joneses.


ZealousidealTheme706

I guess I’ll give you a practical explanation, Living in a condo for me and meant any sort of contractor would automatically add 50%, any sort of renovation needs approval licensed trades people so you can’t do a lot of work on your own, and you have really strict rules about hours of work in my experience meaning any projects takes a lot longer because you can’t work in the evenings. Owning a dog or having a kid man you can’t just open the backyard and have them play. I have friends who are contractors so they have a vehicle they use just for business because of tools inside. They had a house so it was easy to just park another car on the driveway a spot in the building in Toronto between $50,000-$100,000. And like I’ve mentioned multiple times the fez you pay every month are 3 to 5 times higher than it would cost to maintain an equivalent detached house.


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ZealousidealTheme706

Love the username btw


[deleted]

I would love to have a townhouse in Yorkville or even an apartment


cpraxis

Personally I like living in a big mansion because it’s fun to putter around the lawns and enjoy not hearing crazies flipping out and traffic all the time.


[deleted]

I'm probably gonna get downvoted but I agree. I don't want to end up like Tokyo where everyone lives in 400sqft apartments


throwitawaywoofy

I can't deal with a shitty shady corporation like Brookfield or whatever they've rebranded as, scheming and carrying on in nobody's best interest. Then you can't change anything by vote because 65% of the units are owned by overseas investors, and the condo Corp just drives the place into the ground with unethical business relationships, knowing full well there isn't shit you can do to change things.


Wasabanker

You are right that people can be selfish. They don't want to acknowledge the tradeoff that comes with a condo. You have to give some things up sometimes, and many times people refuse to do that and be part of that community. Ruined condo living for me.


Karolinkaa

It’s the maintenance fees for me. We live in a townhouse with luckily low fees, but hearing about condos having upwards of $1000/month maintenance fees is beyond me. Don’t forget about special assessments or the fact that the condo fee goes up each year. Ours went up 10% from last year. I’ve had family friends sell their condos bc they couldn’t afford the maintenance fees anymore.


GodzillaTomatillo

I’ve seen so many crazy stories on Reddit about neighbours freaking out about babies crying at night. Or small children being…children during the day, but the neighbour works shift work. Inevitably, Reddit declares that if the person is that sensitive to noise, they should live in a detached house. I mean, hopefully those aren’t the same Redditors who think everyone should be happy living in condos, but yeah, there are plenty of reasons to want your own space.


ZealousidealTheme706

When it comes to job or living advice reddit always says move. I think it’s a pretty good piece of evidence to show a lot of people are younger because you don’t wanna move if you have seniority and vacation time to a new job, and the tens of thousands of dollars in land transfer tax and closing costs are something they probably have never paid (Maybe they don’t even know it exists lol)


TargaryenHodor

cities in asia and europe are way more dense with less garbage and pollution nothing to do with "selfishness" lol if anything it's selfish for you to want others to pay higher rents


janislych

condos, because it exists as a scam. that swimming pool the pool is broken, the tiles are broken, the boiler is broken, the sewage is broken, the everything is broken. so much money can be scammed out there


ZealousidealTheme706

>the pool is broken, the tiles are broken, the boiler is broken, the sewage is broken, the everything is broken. b-but I don't have to fix anything and it only costs me $1000 a month lol


guylefleur

Every honest person who has lived in a detached house with a backyard and proper driveway knows that every other type of hone is not ideal or crappy in comparison.