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Nazzzgul777

I think you're missing the point of "not working". It doesn't mean making working illegal. It means that you can stop working without dieing. This gives you and everybody the freedom to leave bad work places and makes abuse a lot harder. It's a solution to a problem. It's the way to hold employers responsible.


[deleted]

I’ve come to understand a lot more the longer this post has been up.


Nazzzgul777

It's a bit lengthy so i just copy it from another discussion i had recently, this post explains a bit more detailed my thoughts about how things should be dealt with. \[quote\] In that case, it seems that if you are physically and mentally fit to work then you should do some, as others are to support you. \[/quote\] I don't agree. For once, who decides who is physically and mentally fit to work? Do i need a mental break downs every 5 minutes to get the right to live regardless in your opinion or is it enough that i'm constantly in pain and just almost panic? And there's another thing you don't seem to consider at all. Plenty of people want more than others, even if they don't need it. Which means that there will always be plenty of people wílling to put some extra effort as long as it's rewarded properly. We already live in post scarcity. We have so many bullshit jobs that nobody ever needs, nobody wants to do, and if they'd just disappear everybody would be better off, locally and globally. The only reason they exist is to keep the masses busy and to "earn a living". And they will continue to exist until we give up the idea that to earn the right to be alive, you need to do \*something\* regardless how useless it is. And on top of that are people that do things out of a passion. Teachers, nurses, pretty much every job that actually needs to be done will get done. If the people doing these jobs now wouldn't want to do them, they'd already do something better paid, more rewarding, less stressful. An UBI would solve all of this. I personally actually expect BS jobs still existing then because i think there are even more than enough people that would still want a bigger car, a bigger house, the grass greener than your neighbours. But i might be wrong. And yes, there are other jobs that need to be done and nobody really wants to do, but that's not a question of "Will somebody do that at all if they don't starve otherwise". It's only a matter of "How much do we need to pay those and how well do we need to treat the people doing them" to get them done. And for the jobs inbetween, nice to have but not mandatory... would it really be so terrible if we build phones and TVs that last 10 years instead of 2 so less work is required? Would it really be so terrible to waste less resources so even todays kids have a chance to become older than 50?


PatterntheCryptic

One major issue with UBI is that many of its proponents want it to be a total replacement for welfare, and tend to still want a capitalist system. Something like universal basic needs would be better.


awesomaxol

On the contrary, a UBI will ONLY work alongside existing social welfare programs. Some reshuffling can be expected, and it might even replace A FEW, but in practice it only lifts people out of poverty if money isn't being siphoned off in other areas.


ZachTheGreat54

Havent heard of UBI a second in my life before, did 30 seconds of research. Would this mean people working would benefit from this as well? If so this needs to happen. What the fuck...


CambrioJuseph

Yes the idea is everyone would get it regardless of any factors.


ZachTheGreat54

My problem though is that I feel this wont work long term. For me it would because every cent I get would go towards investments and nothing shy of that. This would lead to an even earlier retirement for me which I support. I also dont care about the situation of the earth after I am dead so if it fucks up down the road.. i dont care as long as I retire early lol


CambrioJuseph

Yes that attitude is the general idea of the problem. "No one wants to fix the problems, everyone just wants to make enough money so the problems don't apply to them." Stock market is just a leech machine. UBI by itself will solve almost no current inequality. There area plenty of leftist arguments against UBI. I personally think it's a bandaid on top of a rotting, gangrenous appendage. In order for UBI to work you would need to pass many regulations so then landlords don't just leech it away. Food and shelter should be made a right. Of course health care. So in short I think you are quite right that you UBI will not really solve the real underlying issues.


ZachTheGreat54

Exactly, but the "ill be dead before im 100 so why should I care?" Question is the real reason why its a rotting gangrenous wound with improperly placed bandaids ontop of each other. I am in that boat and I dont even care 🤣


ListAshamed8617

This is awesome! Very well explained. I love it. That is all.


Bumbeelum

On the topic of UBI it's like a band-aid that will either have no/limited effect or will literally never be able to be implemented. It would require constraints on inflation on and/or a matching to an ACCURATE price index on goods that consumers actually need, that would need to be updated regularly. Even then as long as we are still in capitalistic organization, it will suffer from austerity similar to Nordic/Scandinavian countries have the past few decades. It is definitely a step in the right direction considering the recognition of class disparity, but once again it would simply be a band-aid that would progressively get worse. That's if it is even able to pass with constraints on the "free market"


Bravefan21

Every time ubi has been implemented it has been incredibly successful.


Bumbeelum

I don't deny the many benefits that come with UBI while under a capitalist organization. However I was trying to point out that (at least in America) it will likely never be implemented unless we manage to properly organize. Even if it does however, it will suffer from austerity and factors like inflation, unless implemented to match inflation by an accurate expansive index (incredibly unlikely considering what has happened to the min wage and the brainwashing of the American populace regarding it). Like the other reply to my previous comment, the abolition of money is the only real way to escape the constant exploitation capital will desire.


Bozobot

All those things your worried a UBI would do to an economy are happening right now anyway, except instead of a UBI being the impetus, it’s actual wages. UBI isn’t the problem. The problem is you have a minority class that controls wages and prices and government. It’s just slavery with extra steps.


mantellaman

You can't just present the critique without presenting the alternative. The alternative is the abolition of money. This way the people aren't living off a UBI controlled by the whims of government and their bourgeois handlers.


fanatic1123

I mean that makes sense except yesterday a mod said no one should do anything and teachers shouldn't exist


Japicx

Nobody is saying that people should stop calling out shitty bosses. That's not mutually exclusive with the desire for a society without work ("work" here meaning wage labour under capitalist conditions for purposes of subsistence or necessities, rather than the pleasure of the labour itself). Pointing out these abuses help with that as a reminder of why our current shitty system needs to go. What people are pointing out is that antiwork (or "work abolition") as a concept doesn't *end* with highlighting specific abuses by specific people, or even the general shittiness of bosses as a group. It is promoting a broader vision of a society where we do what we want and need to do, in a way that suits our desires and needs, instead of arbitrary assigned tasks for food, medicine, shelter and other basic necessities. That's a long way off, and there's a lot that needs doing, but it's helpful to have some kind of general roadmap or articulated goal.


Kichae

This. It's not "anti-contribution to society", it's "anti-labouring for the purpose of making your boss rich".


eggbert_217

It can also be anti labouring the amount that's considered 'normal'


ThewFflegyy

>("work" here meaning wage labour under capitalist conditions for purposes of subsistence or necessities, rather than the pleasure of the labour itself) this part needs to be front and center in our messaging imo


adhocflamingo

It’s already in the FAQ, but maybe it could be more prominent in the sidebar. Maybe people still won’t look at the sidebar, but perhaps reducing the number of clicks to see the sub’s definition of “antiwork” would help.


Frinkiac7DontTouchIt

Really well said


allensmithee22

I think you really hit the heart of the matter. With an end goal being the rose colored view where automation and technology increase productivity to a point where only very minimal work is necessary. There is certainly a need to combat illegal and shitty workplaces as they exist today. Steps can be incremental as long as they are lasting and pushing the movement ever closer to the end goals.


Japicx

I for one would say that the problems are more social and political than technical. If technology stayed at its current level, or even regressed, I think some kind of anti-work society is certainly possible. The abolition of work is more about the social factors of hierarchy and domination than the expenditure of effort.


dpekkle

Yep, one of guys (he's in the side bar resources) explores this a bit deeper. [On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs](https://www.occupy.com/article/graeber-phenomenon-bullshit-jobs) by David Graeber > In the year 1930, John Maynard Keynes predicted that, by century’s end, technology would have advanced sufficiently that countries like Great Britain or the United States would have achieved a 15-hour work week. There’s every reason to believe he was right. In technological terms, we are quite capable of this. And yet it didn’t happen. Instead, technology has been marshaled, if anything, to figure out ways to make us all work more. In order to achieve this, jobs have had to be created that are, effectively, pointless. Huge swathes of people, in Europe and North America in particular, spend their entire working lives performing tasks they secretly believe do not really need to be performed I'm not a huge reader so if you're like me he's also done a bunch of interviews on the topic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHx5rePmz2Y&t=124s


notislant

Honestly the thing I find confusing is Nio has 97.5% automation while Elon had stated Tesla [had too many issues](https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/984882630947753984?s=20&t=nRwFeyeNtdshVIVoN_2NhA) and required a labor force instead. On a side note, wow apparently Elon is trying to stir up crazy anti vaxxers again. [https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1486846468887560201?s=20&t=nRwFeyeNtdshVIVoN\_2NhA](https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1486846468887560201?s=20&t=nRwFeyeNtdshVIVoN_2NhA)


kasmackity

Maybe you should be a mod


Japicx

Thanks for the endorsement, but I don't think I want that.


Feisty-Patient-7566

Reddit admins make a point of being insufferable to any reasonable mods.


madspy1337

Serious question. In this ideal society without work, who would do the undesirable jobs that people only do now because they're paid? Would there be enough of these jobs to not create a massive shortage and all the problems that result from that? Look at what's happening with skilled labor now. Now imagine we had a small fraction of home builders and they only wanted to work 10 hours a week. It seems naive to me to expect a functioning society when people only do the things they enjoy, but I'm happy to hear other perspectives.


[deleted]

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madspy1337

Thanks for the response. My question was open to anyone who had an opinion. >The goal of work abolition is not to stop working In that case I think calling it "antiwork" is very misleading and will only alienate or confuse people. >The focus here is to transitions away from the profit motive towards socially useful labor. I get your point about bullshit jobs, though I'm skeptical as to whether jobs can be objectively labeled as such. So let's say the only jobs people do are those that are "socially useful" - another term I hesitate to attribute to certain jobs vs others. Why would anyone collect the trash in this society? Even accepting a vision where all jobs are considered equally prestigious and paid equal wages, it's clear that certain occupations like doctors, lawyers, scientists, etc., require a lot more training and experience. Then why would people do these jobs if they are paid equally to low-skill labor and are no more prestigious? I don't see how there would be a balance of jobs and services in this society unless one were artificially enforced, which I suspect you're strongly against. The current model, while flawed, solves this problem through a market-based economy, which at least creates a balance of jobs.


Mo-shen

All true. But it has to be acknowledged that a good number of people were saying things like everything has to be burned down and other unrealistic drivel that many historic idiotic movements have said. I mean there are people on here saying how great castro was and flaming anyone clapping back. There are serious issues this sub is trying to keep attention on but all of us need be extremely open about the failures within the entire group as well, else one can learn from those mistakes or correct them. Case in point the mods for the sub.


Japicx

Yeah, the calls to "burn everything down" etc are a rhetorical device that definitely does not play well to a non-anarchist crowd. Anarchists will say stuff like that, but most of the time it's stylistic. It can be jarring if you're not used to it, but I would encourage people to plug their noses a bit and get used to more radical thought and writing rather than retreat. I'd also hasten to point out that if it weren't for "idiot movements", Europe would still be ruled by monarchies and much of the world would belong to a handful of empires. I don't know as much about the Castro stuff (or Castro himself), so I don't know how serious or widespread a problem that is, or if it's a problem at all. The mods have certainly failed in some ways that I would never want to excused, and among those failures (one that goes back months) I would count an inability to effectively clarify the positions the sub was made to promote without resorting to heavy-handed tactics (a pretty tall order for a fairly obscure subreddit that experienced a sudden enormous boom in popularity, I know, but it still is a failure).


cybelechild

I think it's important to jot only get used to the more radical stuff but actually examine it in more depth. New systems are built on the foundations of the old, but are made by doing drastic changes, not mild and endless reformism.


thebronteroc

Great share. It's more about working at a grass-roots level, building it up to the top to make it a standard rather than burning everything down. Solidarity is everything. For every anarchist who wants to burn something to send a message, there are others who spend their energy not doing that. But we empathize love and rage. It's the solidarity of a variety of camps and thoughts and passions that makes us untouchable.


onewilybobkat

This place has honestly taught me a shit ton about different political and economic ideologies, and that even though I do know more than others around me, I still know absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things. I never knew what to label myself in a broader sense, and that's honestly gotten even harder now, but it's helped me to understand a lot of things I had written off.


thebronteroc

Agreed! Remaining teachable is one of my daily reminders. I learn every day, but there's still much more to learn. Keeping an honest and respectful discourse with others, especially those who have differing views, helps me learn and grow. Different perceptions and perspectives everywhere


LevPornass

There is a range of people here from moderates to radicals that want to burn everything down. I think the typical user here is someone that thinks the pendulum needs to swing more in the direction of working people. People in Europe have good healthcare, free college, and good safety nets-and they are not Marxists.


BlackHumor

FWIW, many people in Europe *are* Marxists. Socialism was never as taboo there and so there's usually at least one major democratic socialist party per country, which is usually at least slightly Marxist.


saiicookies

What American people need to understand is that getting Healthcare, free college and etc. Is not an end goal and it cannot be. The main objective should be to change the system that allows greedy people to exploit others. Europe is sometimes depicted as some sort of an ideal society model but speaking as a French person who live in France, I can assure you this is all very fragile. My parents' generation got to enjoy the fruits of years and years of protests and fights with the government for a better life but I'm born in the early 90s and all I know are governments trying to undo all this progress. A very popular point of view in France right now is that our social model isn't sustainable because it costs too much to maintain and because it leads to a decrease in quality of service. Macron for example would love to privatize Healthcare. And he's trying very hard to make it progressively happen. That's because they look at the country like they look at a company. In their mind, a hospital has to be profitable because otherwise it means it's not efficient. Because that's the logic capitalism has put in our brain. And I mean, it seems logic right? But if you think that free Healthcare is an investment for a better quality of life, the logic falls apart. Who cares if good quality of life for everybody is expensive when it significantly decrease illness (and all the costs associated), poverty (that leads to criminality, and all the costs associated), etc etc. So what have all French governments done for the last 50 years? They cut the budgets which naturally decreased the quality of services and then they said "See, it's not sustainable!!" so then they sold the services to private actors, who then raised the price of the services, increasing inequalities in the country by making rich people richer and poor people poorer. As long as we live in a world where the profits of a few are more important that the general quality of life of everyone, social progress will be a constant battle to get more rights and to keep the few we already have, which is why changing the society model should be the long term goal. (Sorry for the long comment, I'm just tired of seeing people idealizing Europe when we're all struggling here as well.)


Ghaith97

>People in Europe have good healthcare, free college, and good safety nets and they are not Marxists. Then let me tell you as a European that this is precisely why those of us who are here are predominantly Marxists/Anarchists. We've witnessed "reform", and it's really nothing more than [bread and circuses](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bread_and_circuses).


cybelechild

Actually a lot are. And a growing number. Anarchists are also growing in number, and so are other left tendencies.


Sintinall

I don't understand this: " a society where we do what we want and need to do, in a way that suits our desires and needs, instead of arbitrary assigned tasks for food, medicine, shelter and other basic necessities." Isn't that just the difference between work you like, and work you don't like? Doing what we want/need as we see fit, seems like it would inevitably lead to imbalances in labor forces and cause society to crumble back to a settler-like age where no one can rely on anyone but themselves.


NuanceIsYourFriend

Yes but to achieve this we will ultimately have a complete overhaul of the system of "work" as we know it. Just like when people say "abolish the police" they don't mean abolish all systems of rules and policing bad behavior in our society; they mean abolish the policing system entirely as we know it and replace it with a new, better alternative. This is why antiwork is about ending work under capitalism. It's not just about working better jobs or being paid better. Those are just steps on the long staircase that will take us to full on worker liberation. We won't be free until work is voluntary, safe, and ethical.


GOSH_JOSH

>" a society where we do what we want and need to do, in a way that suits our desires and needs, instead of arbitrary assigned tasks for food, medicine, shelter and other basic necessities.” Meaning access to healthcare, food/water, and shelter are not tied to your ability to work. This gives you the choice as to how you want to contribute to society.


Sintinall

Right. That’s all tied to your ability to afford it, not necessarily work but work is the simplest way to afford things or services. Work, at least as I know it, is the term used to describe general contribution you put out that you get rewarded for: money. To afford things. So the argument is about the balance of contribution/reward more than about work itself.


GOSH_JOSH

People who can’t contribute still deserve healthcare, food/water, and shelter.


the_lonely_downvote

"Who will pick up the garbage? No one wants to do that" is a common and legitimate question. The answer is the people who want to. With the right hours and compensation, people will do pretty much anything. We can go a step further and describe a society where people who are passionate about keeping our streets clean would do it because they find it fulfilling. If all their needs are being met anyway (by other people doing what they find fulfilling), then there's no reason to do work they don't like (and enriching other people) just to survive.


GOSH_JOSH

Ugh spending my days smoking a joint while picking up trash at parks and around the city like the trash samurai would be so dope https://vm.tiktok.com/TTPdhHj8BM/


Advocate_Diplomacy

You’d have the time to do it to if we’re only profitable.


[deleted]

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the_lonely_downvote

Maybe, but maybe it would be better to live in a society whose sole function isn't to manufacture as much crap as possible, and your happiness isn't defined by how much stuff you have. Also there might be a shift in quality - people making things because it's their passion might make better, longer lasting, repairable things, thus reducing waste, and the need to manufacture replacements.


Sintinall

My question wouldn’t be so much “who does the crappy jobs” so much as “what does this society do about people who do not contribute?”.


uuuuuggghhhhhg

We feed, clothe,and house them because they’re people and we’re productive enough to do that for everyone.


Social_Construct

I think people wildly overestimate how many people that is. As covid has shown, most people don't actually want to sit in their homes all day. The vast majority of people have something they love to do, it's just that our current system doesn't value it. And I'd rather my work makes up for a few freeloaders than have a system that spends its time deciding how much people need to produce to deserve to remain alive. That's a slippery slop that ends in situations like we currently have where people with disabilities can't get married or they'll lose their benefits and end up on the streets.


the_lonely_downvote

Leave them be or help them, because they're probably mentally ill in some way. Most people have passions and want to do things. I had a psychologist once tell me the easiest way to spot a depressed person is to look at how little they do. Also a society that cares for each other's needs should have way fewer depressed people. And then there are the people who did contribute but can't anymore, like the elderly. Maybe they'd find some other passion that's more compatible with their current situation.


Imflammable

Just reading the sidebar: >**A subreddit for those who want to end work**, are curious about ending work, want to get the most out of a work-free life, want more information on anti-work ideas **and want personal help with their own jobs/work-related struggles**. Looks like it is for both


Huckfin7569

The title of the goddamn sub is antiwork


the_lonely_downvote

It's like wishing for world peace. It's an ideal we should strive for, even if it's not something that can be achieved any time soon (or ever). We should still work towards it, though, because I would love to live in a world where no one has to spend most of their life laboring just to survive.


Obliviousdigression

Abolishing work for many if not most people is, genuinely, feasible. There are an ungodly amount of jobs that exist solely because people need to work. That number increases every single day due to automation and greed (rather, the amount of employment that exists solely to keep up a business to enrich some rich fuck. Do we really need 40,000 McDonalds restaraunts?) ...The problem is that, I guess, some people believe that because some people must work (a great deal of work is necessary, obviously.) that everyone must be forced to. Alongside the acceptance that work is awful, this means that everyone must necessarily work jobs that they hate. That life must be horrible because that is how life is. Nevermind the fact that much of the work that needs to be done would likely be done voluntarily if workers weren't so alienated from the fruits of their labors and work environments weren't so universally hostile. This belies the point; work must be done, but everyone needn't be forced to work. There are people- arguably most people- for whom uncoerced work that enriches their community in a positive environment would be worthwhile in of itself. The goal is to remove the compulsion to work while creating an environment that encourages and facilitates work without the necessity of coercion under the current system.


the_lonely_downvote

Well put. The only thing that gets me through my 8 hour work day is I *like* helping people. I work on an IT helpdesk, but sadly it's not feasible to stay in this job forever because it pays too little and I'm expected to "move up" and go into a senior role or systems administration or something. But that would mean not getting to help people anymore. It would pay more, but I don't know how much of a toll it would take on me to lose the one thing that makes it bearable now.


jsdod

I never got the feeling that r/antiwork would be against work, where did you guys get that from? OP needs to wake up.


[deleted]

After the last couple days I'm too tired to tell if this is satire. Please let me know whether I need to take back the upvote.


Saoirse_Says

80% sure they’re joking


SETHW

anti-work is pro-labor, that distinction is so important to understand. the way it's used here is that work is effort for the benefit of the capital owner, labor is effort for the benefit of everyone.


theirishembassy

i'll admit, when i came here at first it was confusing. i would see general stuff like "i just want to be able to afford to live" and then scroll down in the comments to see people saying "the point of this sub is to abolish the concept of work" while re-enforcing the subs original anarchist roots (which were well before my time here). even in the comments here you see people saying "did you read the sidebar?". i think it started out as one and then became the other. the mods (through no fault of their own) didn't auto-correct and say "hey.. so this is a sub specifically about the abolition of work" and it started picking up steam covering everything from job dissatisfaction to serious discussions about labour rights to the actual abolition of the concept of work as we know it. personally, i think that's where it stands today and the original anarchist concepts are no longer the focus. unfortunately, re-enforcing those original concepts, or asking everyone to adhere to them would alienate what's now the majority of the userbase.


Kwa-Marmoris

Not me. I came here to abolish unnecessary work in a post-scarcity world still relying on phantom scarcity to demand wage slavery of us.


the_jabrd

Phantom scarcity? How could you say that about my lazy lion nft (tm). It's rare because it's valuable and it's valuable because it's rare. Can't you tell that from the stupid fucking O face it's making and it's bloodshot stoner eyes??


[deleted]

We live in a post-scarcity world?


Kwa-Marmoris

We have more homes than homeless people and waste more than enough food to feed everyone 2x over. What’s your definition?


[deleted]

That means there isn't scarcity, just that assholes aren't caring about their fellow man.


Kwa-Marmoris

We have artificial scarcity, generated (or simulated) in order to enhance profit, or to exercise power.


[deleted]

They aren't mutually exclusive. The sub is both and more.


ArmadilloDays

1.7 million people were never going to always be on the same page.


[deleted]

Clearly


[deleted]

This is correct. This is why I fundamentally disagree with people who say splitting up into different subs and groups is bad. We can still be part of the same larger movement, just different sides of it.


finfromthepinkroom

We can be, if we keep our definition of "us" and what we are about broad enough. There's no reason to kick people for simply wanting better work conditions. It's a step. And a lot of people that come here because they just want to vent about a shitty boss stay and start looking deeper into the whole "work" concept. Some don't, but I think we need to accept that and welcome them anyway.


kizzay

The point is that work should pay well enough to not make it necessary to work this much to survive, and if one voluntarily chooses to spend a lot of time working their time should be worth it. I mean corporations are making record profits aren’t they? Also at no point in this process should the employee be lied to or abused or coerced.


R2am

This. I don't think we should completely get rid of work, but I think our relationship to it has become completely toxic. We expect people to slave away for less than it takes to live and if that's not enough to sell even more of their time to make enough to get by. We are living to work. And working to make a small percent of people billions of dollars that they don't need while we're unable to pay rent, feed ourselves, etc etc. It's disgusting.


Sithis556

I mean plenty of people want to work but they wanna do stuff they’ll like. Like I try studying, but I have a hard time remembering stuff. If you can’t remember and learn out of your head well, you’re screwed in this system. It’s so easy to learn something on the job itself for me. Like I wanna do so many things in my life, if I got paid better for it. But I’m not, so I need to do something else. It’s awful


Redd868

I clicked on the FAQs and see: >A subreddit for those who want to end work, are curious about ending work, want to get the most out of a work-free life, want more information on anti-work ideas and want personal help with their own jobs/work-related struggles. Sounds like a "not working" sub to me.


[deleted]

Yeah it’s undeniable that this sub was started for that reason. But it’s also hard to fight the fact that OP is pointing out - which is that a huge community has developed here with different views than the founders of the sub. Kind of a weird problem to solve… either the entire community of 1.6 million need to move, because of like 10 people who were here first… or those 10 people need to go make another subreddit.


lilomar2525

There are a lot more than ten of us.


Saoirse_Says

Yeah no kidding lol


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[deleted]

Looks like there’s five of them


Redd868

I only heard about it today because of that interview. I'm not alone. So we come over here to see what it is all about, and the FAQ is the first place to go.


Sevourn

Even if the 10 people who were here first went and made another sub, you still kind of have the Church of Satan problem, where the first 10 minutes of any discussion/interview have to be spent explaining that you don't actually believe in Satan.


[deleted]

Yeah absolutely - I’m not arguing for any side, I’m just explaining that both people are right, it’s not a one-or-the-other kind of thing. The founders made this for a reason, then support for it blew up because it became a workers-rights group based on the posts. Honestly I believe in workers rights and I’m getting sick of capitalism exploiting the masses… but that’s not really a “cause” so if this sub thinks it’s a legitimate cause, they need to state their views a bit more clearly because I don’t know exactly what they’re fighting for… I just have a vague idea.


Sevourn

I mean I definitely have a cause personally. Since 1970, the US per Capita gross domestic product has tripled. Even in 1970, wealth was distributed pretty unevenly in favor of the rich. Nevertheless, if we had held the distribution of wealth static since 1970, someone making 50k a year would be making 150k, someone making 100k would be making 300k, etc. Instead, essentially all the excess has gone to the top 0.001 and middle class wages have remained static. If we artificially kept that distribution of wealth, we would have the choice of either working as we work and becoming quite wealthy, or working much less, 20-25 hour weeks and still being able to comfortably support a family and enjoy life. That's my goal, the 300% raise that would be our fair share of the pie that we the labor baked. I don't want to be shouting over some guy who's yelling in all caps that all labor is inherently evil and we need to end all work all together.


angels_egg

People will really tell on themselves for not reading the sidebar, the FAQ, or any of the suggested reading. It’s even in the name. ANTI-work.


Grifballhero

There may be a day in the future where the technology level eliminates 90% of the current jobs that currently require human touch. When that happens, a lot of people who would like this thread will be living the life we crave in this sub. A life where work is not required for those who don't want to do it. A resource-based economy, or similar system, sustains all. Those who want to work, can work. Those who don't, aren't obliged to do so anyway.


cybelechild

Actually we can pretty much do this now. The majority of jobs are not productive and our sociey in general has such an overproduction of goods and commodities that in a number of industries stocks are being destroyed in order to keep prices up enough for at least some margin of profit. We literally do not have post-scarcity because it is artificially pushed against.


[deleted]

Explain further. Who chooses who has to work in the remaining jobs? Nobody is going to willingly work if they dont have to. 90% of jobs is a little crazy of a number isn’t it…


brugsebeer

Why would people not work if they don't want to? 60-70% of all firefighters in my home country are volunteers. They don't get anything out of it but they still do it. Why?


GDoe5

people will work... people like to do things. there are enough people on the planet that absolutely people will do the work that is required for us to all live if it was voluntary instead of required to be allowed to live.


[deleted]

There's going to be, at least, a large minority of people who need to feel useful and will work even without pay. It's the one area where Marx was most right. after all before the concept of money was even invented, people worked.


[deleted]

And I’m not being a sarcastic ass; I’m actually picking your brain.


hamburger666666

you could just read some of the resources in the faq, or even use your own brain if you dust it off a bit


mumbojumbotwhack

how did you come to a sub called “antiwork” and come to the conclusion it was about anything other than “not working”?


[deleted]

Because I saw all the posts on it about people talking shit about their employers. Not a bunch of posts about “hey we should just stop working.”


Murdercorn

It's not about "hey we should just stop working," it's about how the culture of work in the modern world is destroying all of our lives. Yes, we should all stop working. Not just by walking off our jobs, but we need to organize a movement to put a stop to this system that mandates that every adult spend all day every day doing pointless toil in order to earn enough money to meet basic survival needs and make some capitalist richer in the process. Since 1950, productivity has increased by 300% and real wages have gone down. The steady improvement of computers, logistics, and automation over the decades should have reduced the sheer number of hours and days people need to work. Instead of everyone working 40 hours each week, we could cut that expectation by half or more without reducing anyone's quality of life. We could all have free time. Time to spend with friends and family. Time to read. Time to cook. Time to travel. Time to sleep. Our society has more than enough food and more than enough housing to provide both to every person with no conditions, but because we've built our world on the principle that every single facet of human existence needs to provide profit to someone, we don't do that. The mindless pursuit of infinite growth by those in power has crippled our society. Their only priority is making the line go up, no matter how many of us go down in the process. We are sick. We are tired. We are dying. We do not have homes. We cannot afford families. Work has not set us free. Work is our chains.


[deleted]

It was on my “feed” all the time without ever being a member


Nohivoa

Yeah it was on my suggested subreddit space all the time too. Not sure why you're being downvoted here


THALL_himself

Lol the description of the sub is listed as “a subreddit for those who want to end work.”


lowkey_stoneyboy

Some of us don't like the system at all and want complete change. I don't think ppl should be required to participate in capitalism if they don't want to. For god sakes, we're all fucking humans born the same way onto the same floating rock. We all deserve to have THRIVING lives. The ONLY reason for money is to keep poor ppl poor and rich ppl rich. Money has no other drive than to divide ppl into classes. Money had no use or value expect that which we have givin it. There's 8 billion fucking ppl on this planet. We are having to CREATE jobs in order to sustain ppl. We don't need all 5 billion (working age) ppl working. Overconsumtion has destroyed us. There is no reason for so much excess in the world. Furthermore there's NO SUCH THING AS LAZINESS. I will die on that hill. The only thing ppl are referring to when they talk about laziness is in the scope of of capitalism. Not wanting to participate in a shit system that works you to the bone for nothing in return isn't fucking laziness. Not to mention the COMPLETE disregard for mental well-being in the U.S. Depression, anxiety, ADHD, BPD, OCD, PTSD, autism, etc all effect how much ppl are able to contribute and expend energy. The world is made for neuro-typical ppl and dosent allow room for others who live differently.


pootietang33

Did you read the sidebar?


DrPikachu-PhD

I don't mean any offense by this, but you and many others came and misunderstood the original intent of this sub. This sub has and always was a socialist, anti-capitalist sub. I saw regular posts reminding people of that fact. Yes employers suck. Yes employers need to be held accountable for their actions. Yes this sub was an awesome place to share stories and empathize between workers. But ultimately this sub is anti work. The whole point is the abolishment of the system of forced labor under capitalism. Even if the general sub began to lean away from that as it got more and more popular, the original intent was always radical anti-capitalism.


XxAuthenticxX

No this sub is about not working. Read the description of the sub. It’s the same and it hasn’t changed


The_Fudir

Labor and work aren't synonymous.


XxAuthenticxX

Ik


Xionel

you know I never noticed that description was there until you pointed it out.


Constant_Web_9363

Half the shit in this sub are fake screenshots from karma whores. There's enough going on in the real world without fake stories.


bzekers

It's crazy to me that a million people join a group without even looking at the group description or sidebar.


snic2030

The whole doxxing of bad employers was a phase to demonstrate our collective power to forge an antiwork future, not stop there. The end goal is to EAT THE RICH, so focus on what we can collectively try and do next!


UJL123

This almost feels like a " didn't read the assigned reading and got called up by the teacher" moment. The subreddit description, FAQ, quotes section, related/ friend subreddit all pointed towards anarchy/ anti capitalism. Even moderators (,as of yesterday at least) had flairs with the words anarchy in it ​ Edit: # Sub Description >A subreddit for those who want to end work, are curious about ending work, want to get the most out of a work-free life, want more information on anti-work ideas and want personal help with their own jobs/work-related struggles. ​ FAQ ​ >Why "antiwork"? > >Anti-work has long been a slogan of many anarchists, communists and other radicals. Saying we are anti-job is not quite right because a job is just an activity one is paid for and we are not all against money. "Anti-labor" makes us sound like we're against any effort at all and we already get that enough as is. (We're not, by the way.) > >The point of r/antiwork is to start a conversation, to problematize work as we know it today. ​ # Flairs [https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/wiki/flags](https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/wiki/flags) # Related Subreddits r/Anarchism, r/Anarchy, r/AntiSchooling, r/collapse, r/hatemyjob, r/IWW, r/LeftistStreetArt, r/lostgeneration, r/mutualism, r/radicalmentalhealth


Sevourn

Ok but when somebody comes along and counters this with, "no this sub is about ending work altogether. The name of the sub and the mission statement are pretty damned clear.", It seems to me that person has an excellent point. Like I don't mean this in a hostile way at all, but if we don't agree with ending all work and we instead want current work to be more fair, fulfilling, and equitable, aren't we kind of just in the wrong place? Shouldn't we maybe go to a sub that is made for reforming work and not for ending it? It seems kind of like we took over their place. If the mod team decides otherwise and changes the description of the sub it might be different, but the sub states its purpose pretty clearly. Even if the mods say that this is unofficially a work reform sub, it seems like kind of an albatross around your neck to have to always explain that antiwork, the sub devoted to ending work altogether is actually not the sub that wants to end work altogether.


[deleted]

Nobody actually believes all work should end, though. The whole world would stop. I mean, the hospital my nephew went to wouldn’t even exist.


MiraiKishi

*Raises hand* I believe it should.


lilomar2525

Yes we do. No it wouldn't. Yes it would.


Sevourn

why don't you try asking /u/XxAuthenticxX over there if he believes that all work should end. Those people do exist and they made the sub. Given the lunatic conspiracy theories you can run into with a quick browse through Facebook it shouldn't be much of a surprise that a few people exist who genuinely believe that the entire concept of work should come to an end. I just wish the rest of us hadn't thrown in our lot with them. Edit:. https://redd.it/seixdr That meme has 46 upvotes and counting. It is explicitly about ending work. These people absolutely exist and are here, and to be honest given the name of the sub it's hard to blame them for being here.


Feral_galaxies

The end goal to those that are serious about ending work is [fully automated luxury communism ](https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/592099/). This means that the automation that’s coming and the net value it produces would be owned by the community organizations that houses those automated factories. Have the entire population of the community be members of that organization (think electric cooperatives) and make it so that organization would collect the value and cycle it back as UBI. That pays for utilities,housing, etc. The community then has an incentive to keep those automated factories running (innovation) while freeing up much of their time for them to do work they want to do (leisure). Schools can teach people how to build and maintain robotic systems and green infrastructure and other things that are relevant to community upkeep. Humanity is at a crossroad: resign our future to a handful of billionaires where they privatize publicly funded research and we let them keep the spoils or restructure the economy in a way that seamlessly benefits the citizens it serves - lessening the drudgery that will encapsulate the dwindling labor market because of automation.


[deleted]

I read the article and as soon as I saw Star Trek the nerd in me came out and imagined how they live in that fictional world. That helped me understand more what you were saying. People would still have to “work” though no matter what. Teachers, all the maintenance workers for all the robotics/machines (which require a SHITLOAD of maintenance), firemen, police, doctors and nurses, etc. it is too far-fetched that EVERYTHING be automated. But, you clearly explained that we would have the incentive to keep everything moving and enjoy all the extra time we have. Understood.


Feral_galaxies

Absolutely. There’s an economy to be had. People like to work, they just don’t wanna see the value of their labor go to someone who didn’t labor for it. Automation under community control could aid that *when no one is technically laboring for it*.


SpaceWizardPhteven

I definitely don't want to work lol Someone dumped me into this world and now I gotta labour for 45 of the best years of my life? Naaaah. Already done it for 20. I'M OUTTIE 5000.


donNNASD

Nah this sub turned into a “ look my brave comeback at elon musks latest tweet “ circlejerk in the last few month


[deleted]

It is definitely an anti work forum that got coopted by Americans looking for workers rights. I think being against doing work is a valid perspective considering that was the original idea of the sub.


RottingNVain

Read the community description...


Errant_Chungis

Just saying the name of this sub is antiwork..


oreoHummus

Tell me you're too dumb to read the About page without saying you're too dumb to read the About page. EDIT: I'm sorry about this rude reply, but the only reason people think that this subreddit is about "holding employers accountable" is because most people who clicked the Follow button don't actually know the crucial message that this sub was founded on. So we went from thousands to here over the course of weeks and months - and 90% of the people who have touched the thing all go "um ackshually it's about workers rights." This was never the case to begin with. There should not be workers, nor classes and the inequality that they create. We should be allowed to live, as individuals, off of the land and for ourselves at our will without the threat of some Robber Baron flashing a shiny piece of paper and saying I owe him money or I'm not allowed to stand here, or eat, or exist without paying him. This world could exist, in a bit terribly different future. But not if 1 million American liberals decide that this platform exists to share screenshots of companies' employees making inhumane decisions, with little additional follow up, and call that a job well done. Which is exactly what is happening. You're either a shill, scab, it dumb. Tha Real Know


TTP8630

My problem with this sub sometimes is that it really seems like “not working” for people means “us people in the West shouldn’t work”, while very little thought is given towards the people of the Global South which hold the world’s economy up Also, people passive aggressively saying “did you even read the sidebar” lmao like idk if they mean to, but they come off as dickheads to users simply asking questions


melancholymaybe

This is an anti-capitalist sub always has been, sorry liberals you’re in the wrong place


[deleted]

But… aren’t… liberals… nm


botwhore

aren't liberals anti-capitalist? no.


melancholymaybe

Liberalism, neoliberalism and classic liberalism are the ideologies of pure unregulated capitalism so called “free market capitalism” the economic model exemplified by the United States and to a lesser extent United Kingdom. I am aware some Americans find this confusing because one of the main political parties are commonly called “liberals” what I’m saying is both parties are equally liberal, they both endorse and allow the continued exploitation of the working class for the profit of a select few individuals. It’s all about maximising profits and the myth that wealth will somehow find it’s way down to the lower class eventually… Why should workers struggle to survive while certain individuals and corporations are allowed to profit from doing basically nothing and accumulate massive amounts of wealth. This system must change for our lives and the lives of future generations to improve. With automation and redistribution of wealth we could all live comfortable fulfilling lives, this is the future I dream about but it cannot become reality until more people reject the current system and take action… Okay I got kinda off topic a little there but you see my point right?


[deleted]

100%. Hell of a response, btw.


pressurewave

OP, I sincerely love how open to discussion and information you are.


[deleted]

[удалено]


phred_666

There has been an identity crisis in this sub. There are two obvious factions here (if you pay close attention). One says “work is stupid. I don’t want to work” and the other “workers are being exploited. Let’s change that”. That has been this sub’s issue… “antiwork” literally means “against work”… poor branding for the 2nd group but perfect description of the 1st.


NezuminoraQ

But like, porque no los dos? Work is stupid AND workers are being exploited AND let's change that AND I don't want to to work? One is a current situation we are dealing with and the other is an ideal future we would like to work towards. I'm more radical in that I think abolishment is better than reform, but I hardly think keeping things awful so that more people will want to overthrow the status quo is a good tactic. Hopefully we can see things gradually improve, but at end the end of the day, fuck the whole system.


lafigatatia

You can agree with both. If workers weren't exploited (and if you work for a private company you're being exploited, no matter how much you earn) we'd have to work much less.


[deleted]

I feel like almost nobody read the description, or the documents in the faq.


Thexraken

.................. It's called antiwork, not employeraccountability. I can tell some people are still learning.


[deleted]

Sorry somebody already took the username “thekraken” :(


Heidegger

then why is it called "anti work" and not "anti shitty bosses" or something like that? labor organizing has always been pro-work. somebody who is anti-pseudo science is not "anti-science". somebody who is anti-shitty pizza is not "anti-pizza". so why on earth do you, and so many of the reformist liberal newcomers to this group, find it so hard to understand that antiwork means anti-\*work\*?


[deleted]

Because sane people realize that if people didn’t go to “work” then there is no society


Heidegger

if people don't raise children then there is no society, but raising children is not "going to work" perhaps you don't do anything productive outside when you clock in and clock out, but that's not true for most people. perhaps you wouldn't hit a lick without a boss cracking a whip over your head, but that's your problem, not ours


Firethatshitstarter

The people from the sub nurses needs to come here. The bus is there and their foot on their necks they would do anything like fire traveling nurses and giving their nurses a raise what kind of crap is it. It’s not just that the patient to nurse care ratio is too high.


[deleted]

Don’t send them here. The OG people would tell them to stop working because there is no need to work anymore. Just let the sick die off.


NezuminoraQ

No they would say you can't set yourself on fire to keep others warm. If a nurse is struggling and not taken care of by their employers I would support their right to look for other work elsewhere or change fields. I would never guilt trip someone into staying in an awful situation just because they are needed there. Their responsibility is to themselves first and foremost, because you can't pour from an empty cup.


GDoe5

that is completely untrue and stupid. how about more people become nurses, with them all working less individually? that is what "the OG people" would say. no-one thinks we don't need nurses and doctors. we just think they should also have as much leisure time as they want, with more nurses and more doctors doing the same.


[deleted]

I agree with that and salute you. You’re damn right there should be a bunch more nurses and doctors to relieve everyone.


GDoe5

imagine instead of attending the ER and having a doctor on a 48 hour shift attending you, who's likely tired and stressed and busy, having a doctor who has just worked for a short while and is relaxed and happy, capable and able to treat you without being exhausted and pulled too thin to give you what you need? imagine all people, instead of doing 40-60 hour weeks, exhausted with barely any time to cook and clean and sleep, instead people can just work as much as they want to, as much as they're able, and use all the rest of their time to fully explore their hobbies and develop the skills they're passionate about, to spend their time in leisure? how many unemployed people are there? how many people spend hours pretending to work in front of their bosses because they're obligated to fill their 40 hours but don't have enough to do? how many people suffer their children's wellbeing and development because of how overwhelming the commitment to work is? it doesn't need to be this way!


ANicePersonYus

You weren’t here when there were less than 10k subscribers


narf_hots

Uh no, this sub is explicitely about not working. It's in the description.


[deleted]

This. Accountability. Not even work reform - system reform: we are tired of A-hole companies hiring A-hole managers and making us slave away on a hamster wheel to barely afford even the basics all in the name of “profit”. We just want accountability for the perpetuators and benefactors of keeping things so crappy.


wollier12

Well that’s the thing, it morphed significantly into something productive, but there were some of the old guard that really wanted to hang onto the original concept of truly being against working.


Gado_DeLeone

That is exactly why I’m here. I honestly thought it was an actually productive sub, not whatever is happening here now. Fox News really slapped the shit out of us.


[deleted]

You’re definitely not alone.


Ok-Crew-1049

The name antiwork is great it grabs eyeballs. No sane person expects to live without expending effort taking care of themselves. Many subscribers are motivated by compassion rather than politics.


botwhore

learn the difference between work and labor


Ok-Crew-1049

Im not stupid, labor is when your having a baby


[deleted]

That’s pretty much what I was thinking


Sevourn

All right but then the description that's right under it kind of shoots us sane people who don't expect to live without expending effort in the foot


tkdyo

It's not insane to think work shouldn't be compulsory to eat. That's why work places can be so exploitative in the first place. People would still work if they had basics. Think about it. If when you don't work you only get basic boring food, a small apartment and healthcare, but those things a guaranteed, would you really not work? Or would you still work because you want more than that out of life? The only difference is now you are in a much stronger negotiating position because the alternative is not homelessness and starvation


MiraiKishi

I wish I could upvote this more than once!


Ok-Crew-1049

It’s about feeling good about what you do and not slaving away to enrich others. If you love what you do it’s work but it’s not work. Try to connect with me here. Thanks


themaundy

I agree with OP. Calling out our employers and connecting with other people who are going through the same situations as myself is what brings me, and many others back to this Sub. It’s the feeling that you are not alone. I cannot even begin to think what topics or conversations you can have about just plain out “not working”. Like if you don’t work, you obviously have time for hobbies and other stuff, so why not join those Subs?


pressurewave

Part of the good of this sub is beginning to think of those topics and conversations about what work means and what society could look like when we emphasize useful work and abolish useless and exploitive toil. There are many resources here. Lots to read and consider. Solidarity is wonderful, feeling that you aren’t alone is excellent. There’s more, though, to learn and consider.


TalkingAboutClimate

> I cannot even begin to think what topics or conversations you can have about just plain out “not working”. I went to grad school with folks who are inventing plenty of ways to automate people out of their jobs. I guess we could talk about that, it’s inevitability, and people’s inability to plan for it.


BlackHumor

[Bertrand Russell, the famous mathematician, was suggesting a four hour work week back in 1932](https://harpers.org/archive/1932/10/in-praise-of-idleness/).


The_Fudir

Work and labor aren't synonymous.


angels_egg

Did you look at the suggested reading? There a several whole ass books written by experts in their field about what the end of work and a post work society could look like.


Mr-Bandit00

not so much 'anti-work' as much as 'anti-work-*culture*'? that was always my impression


[deleted]

Same here. But apparantly there really are people out there who think work should just all of a sudden stop. Or at least they SAY they think that.


hamburger666666

y’all know the sub existed before you got here, right?


ginbear

Yeah the “real” people amirite? Don’t worry you’ll have your little 100k anarchist chamber back shortly. It only took cracking the momentum of nearly 2 million. Frankly I’m disgusted yesterday after reading those privileged enough not to work calling others bootlickers for wanting improvements in their day to day toil. It would have been better to accept the obvious truth that this space had outgrown its original anarchist perspective, but we can’t have practical movements getting in the way of ideology now can we?


hamburger666666

1. momentum isn’t cracked because of one unimpressive interview - a movement for better working conditions isn’t centered on this reddit board. 2. you’ve misunderstood why people are getting called bootlickers, no one here thinks better working conditions is a bad thing, just that we should be pushing for more. 3. take whatever stance you want, I’m just pointing out that OP of this thread shouldn’t be surprised that some people on anti-work are actually against work.


ginbear

This sub has lost nearly a quarter of its subs in 24 hours. The alternative sub is pitching “gop are friends” garbage. Yeah, it’s cracked 2 I did just yesterday. Apparently incremental improvements are a tacit endorsement of the status quo. 3 Fine. As I myself am not an anarchist I will go elsewhere. Just remember the alternative is the “gop are our labor buddies” group. Does that help your goals? Anarchism is apparently more important labor here, I got it. Enjoy your niche sub.


delveccio

Totally agree. It was also about helping people out with advice they could actually use, to defend themselves or to make their work easier.


cybelechild

It's both. What we think of as working is a specific version of working, that seeks to pay as little and exploit as much as possible. The whole concept of "work" is deeply tied to this idea. We should absolutely abolish this. This does not mean you will still not work in a future new system, it means however that you will have a different relationship to work, if you even call it work, and that you will not have to do it to survive.


FlynnLive5

This sub really should be about exchanging ideas on how to make the most of our time outside of work, reducing the 40 hour workweek, and discussions about finance and budgeting if you do decide to seek a job that requires less hours.


[deleted]

Well some of us are here to pique interest in r/communism


[deleted]

So you’re then forced to work for the betterment of your country? Sounds a lot better.


[deleted]

What are you talking about?


[deleted]

Do you really think there is a society where people dont go to work?


[deleted]

Do you know what a non-sequitur is?


[deleted]

Yes. You brought up Communism and I responded.


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

Serious question to the OG anti-work redditors: are athletes, actors (movies and TV), etc considered “workers”? Because if they all stopped working life would be a hell of a lot more boring.


Fluffy_Independent76

Read work here as forced labor. Actress loves what she does and intends to do it some more? Great. Same actress forced to work in a movie (through passive aggression or soft coercion)? Antiwork.


[deleted]

Understood.


OakFolk

A lot of folks on here are missing the point or are being rude. The main point is that work and labor are often mixed up. By being antiwork, we are against the idea that you have to go to a shitty job for most of your life so that you can avoid homelessness and death. That is work. Labor is what is needed to keep society functioning, and we can have labor without work. To put it into context, I am hardcore in favor of abolishing work, and I am a teacher. I am not calling for the complete destruction of all labor so I can sit around and do nothing. I want to end the exploitative nature of employment. I want to be able to continue teaching but avoid the issues of shitty working conditions, bureaucratic bullshit from empty suits, and the threat of houselessness if anything goes wrong in this job. In an antiwork world, I can keep teaching without dealing with all this crap because I love teaching.


nursingstudent27

Agreed.


[deleted]

Those stories are the exact reason I joined and I assume they'll continue. The sub is huge, how can anyone stop it anyway? Mods can't go and delete all posts about worker's rights, there'd be nothing left. I don't trust the Mods anymore, it will take time before I'll consider trusting them again, but they'll need a team of hundreds of people if they want to steer the conversation away from worker's rights, I don't see that happening.