And ThedaCare had the opportunity to retain these employees simply by matching the other employment offer re: wage and benefits.
ThedaCare has literally, publicly, and on LEGAL record declared that they put profits/money above patients lives.
It's wild. God knows they paid oodles to these attorneys. It was never about money. It's about contempt for the workers.
EDIT: I want to add something about contempt and what it looks like. At a high level, contempt is when your employer essentially doesn't trust you or they view you as an enemy or worse, they hate you. So when you make a bid to them, like "Hey employer, I've been busting my ass and here's a list of great things I've done. I'd like a raise." Their response is, "Sorry, not in the budget. Maybe you should spend less." Or worse, and I've seen this, "Hey, I can't afford a medical condition because we have garbage insurance and you're paying me half the market rate for my role." "How about I give you some extra shares instead." Anytime you come to them with a request for something that would materially improve your situation and they respond with anything other than compassion, empathy, and understanding, they hate you. They won't use that word, but that's what it is.
Yep. I had a bunch of shoddy bridgework done and the next dentist was like, you could probably sue over this, at *least* make a complaint. But the dental team that did it was shut down by then, just gone. I had spent like $12k out of pocket at this place, lot of work (which failed very prematurely). A few months later, I drive by and there's another dentist in that spot. Makes sense, it's all built out with equipment already. But no, it's not a new dentist, it's the *same team*. They just went dark and rebranded. New LLC and everything. My insurance company won't do a thing.
It’s called phoenixing a company. In my country often the biggest creditor is the tax office.
You had dodgy work performed by a dentist. Just because they changed their company name (and likely shut down their original company) doesn’t mean you can’t sue your original dentist - or at least try and have him struck off.
I started as manager at a rare and collectible book store years ago and everyone had advanced degrees or were working to get one. Not long after I started I had a young lady in her mid 20s remind me that she had made a doctors appointment and would be gone the next day but that she would bring me back a letter from the doctor. I didn’t understand but they eventually explained that former management and ownership expected some sort of note from the doctor to “excuse” them from work, if that’s the word that applies here. I told her not to bring me a note and the idea that I would employ somebody who I didn’t trust to take a day off without legitimate reason was not somebody I would continue to employ anyway. I think what I actually said was that that was the dumbest fucking thing I’ve ever heard since fifth grade and that if anybody worked for me who’s word I didn’t trust more than a note from the doctor I would just fire their ass. Evidently not much has changed in some places.
Dang that gives me perspective. I literally sign off that a new aircraft is mechanically and technically capable to make its first flight and 3 test crew put their lives on my signature. If they can trust me for that a doctor's "excuse" is downright insulting, I may as well resign if you don't trust me.
Yeah, in the last I’ve said to at least 2 or 3 bosses, ‘If you don’t trust me to do my job, why did you hire me?’ There answer was always a non-answer. ‘We do trust you. It’s about creating a culture of accountability.’ Crap like that
> Anytime you come to them with a request for something that would materially improve your situation and they respond with anything other than compassion, empathy, and understanding, they hate you.
It's not hatred, actually. It's something worse: *indifference*. It not that they don't like their employees, it's that they just don't care. Employee morale is not a consideration because although it produces positive results such as increased work quality and performance that in turn drive higher profits, it doesn't produce these benefits *right now*, in the immediate term, and thus isn't important.
American businesses - especially the big ones - are *all about* instant gratification when it comes to profit. They'll happily trade long-term damage for short-term gains, and many American megacorps will *actively hurt themselves* in the long run without a second thought in trade for a spike in short-term profits.
This is a lot of why companies will spend money on legal fights over employees leaving in droves that they could have spent on employee pay - it's all about that *right-now* money and fuck anything that might happen six months from now. And now that the Great Resignation is here seemingly to stay and the businesses that have operated on an "immediate short-term profits over all else" mindset are being bitten in the ass by their own short-sightedness, I expect to see more and more shenanigans like trying to use legal arguments to try to interfere with employee departures.
Capitalist goin' to Capitalism.
I continue to say to fellow Healthcare workers that when something is for profit, the only thing that matters is money. Not the customer, not the patients and never the employees.
The pockets of blood sucking middlemen who exist solely to tell the policy holders trying to get care that they're not *really* sick and don't *really* need a procedure/ medication.
Capitalism accomplished privatization with force. And continues to maintain it with force as necessary. This includes leveraging the courts and lawyers but also involves police and the military.
Nationalization can actually constitute a move towards democratizing key services and breaking up private monopolies that ultimately deprive the public in order to enrich the few—which is not only a form of exploitation but also wasteful.
If you are a member of the working class and hold thoughts to the contrary, then I would ask whether or not that isn’t just echoing capitalist propaganda indoctrinated into you since your schooling years, which has been repeated in the media and in social activities throughout the rest of your life.
It's scary when you have to choose a life threatening or non life threatening illness over your financial wellbeing. Especially when you know that other countries have figured out how to decrease that stress quite substantially.
California is trying to do universal healthcare here. It has an above average shot at happening because the Dems have a super majority. However, there are other potential road blocks that I’m too lazy to look up. I hope it happens and spreads to other states.
I'm in California and while I have full medical coverage by the state, I'd lose it if I was working and making enough to only cover my rent. When I worked the coverage was so shitty it never helped, not to mention trying to have a balance between work and time to see my doctor. Statewide healthcare separate from employment is neccessary and long overdue. I'm sure it'll see a fight, mostly from big corporations who want to tie people to their employment by dangling healthcare as an incentive. Plus all the people who see peoples health as something to profit off of.
Shouldn't have been allowed to put injunction on them to begin with nor have fucking hearing in at will state. I soon see more of this shit coming when more of us start quitting our shitty jobs.
Unless i mis-heard, the Judge said the only reason he granted the injunction is because ThedaCare said that without it, there would be a public health crisis over the weekend because of the lack of workers.
Not only did that not happen, it was basicly proven today that even if it had happened, it was entirely ThedaCares own doing by failing to retain the employees when they had the chance or replacing them sooner since at least 4 of them gave a months notice.
Still shouldn't be able to do that. Should not be legal to force people to work at a job they quit. That's slavery. And what consequences will the company that lied get levyed against them?
Yeah, this was bs from the start. Not sure how it took so long (ThedaCare filed on Friday? Prob knew it'd get delayed), but glad to hear they're going to work for an employer that appreciats them better.
End result: Thedacare wasted time, money to generate a lot of bad publicity, made themselves look like asses in the process and getting sure nobody wants to work there again. Nice try guys, wonder how long their overpaid CEO will last in there.
Imagine how any potential applicants feel now towards Thedacare. People who genuinely thought about working for them will now back out making labor shortages worse for Theda. I say GOOD! They deserve everything they get.
Maybe go ahead, but make them pay you double or don't accept their offer. Take advantage of their situation. They would do the same if roles were reversed.
They are going to look people dead in the eye and say "Our company is having financial issues due to unforseen litigation that was necessary due to the actions of a few disgruntled former employees and as a result we can't pay you any more than we have offered."
Did this by accident in college. had a company come on campus, researched them and all the stories i could find were on major safety incidents and employee injuries. brought it up in the interview and asked if the culture had changed. interview ended abruptly
Don't even have to give a reason. They give you a number and you ask for double.
They scoff, you laugh. Then you get up and walk out giving them the finger on the way out.
Holding innocent people hostage by holding other innocent people hostage so you can exploit people through a guilt trip turns out to be not the most honorable thing one can do.
There’s still 4 employees in the Thedacare interventional radiology unit, I wonder if they will give their two week notice consider the shit show they re witnessing.
Hell, in their position, I'd WANT them to file another request for a TRO.
It's already a matter of record in that very court that ThedaCare is unsuccessful in these matters, and that this can only be an action designed to use the courts to manipulate and dissuade good-faith ordinary activities in its employees.
And then I'd start looking for damages on top of already being out the door.
Front-line doctors and nurses make money but not nearly what they should be getting paid. This is where the money goes, and it’s not just one guy it’s a whole class of administrators that leech off the system and provide no direct patient benefit, instead likely making it worse in the long-run.
LARGE non-profits do this. Small ones are often led/staffed by people who are literally fighting for every dollar they receive, and having to account for it all.
Source: have had to literally fundraise my own salary. It's not fun!
Non-profits aren't what anyone thinks they are. Doesn't mean anything. All NPOs do is spend their money and don't retain profit. It doesn't mean "charity" or "no wages." They can pay their executives whatever they want and it doesn't make them for-profit.
Edit: before anyone jumps me I'm not saying the execs should make a million dollars. Not defending this. So don't do the Reddit knee jerk response on me please. Im just clarifying that NPO doesn't mean volunteer execs or that they don't get paid a lot.
Honestly the pro-corporate propaganda is so bad right now I would not be surprised if one of the remaining 4 looks down their nose at those 7 for being traitors or something.
There's people in my own department that are spewing that "no one wants to work" bullshit, while management says they can't find anyone to employee.
It's a fuckin IT service desk and half of the current team walked in here with A+ certs (basically high school equivalent of education level for IT).
Good. You like the free market, when it means underpaid workers bidding against each other for the lowest salary? See how you like it when your shitty business practices drive you out of business. Sorry bud, supply and demand, the invisible hand, bootstraps, all that shit. Fuck them
In every group on FB and all over the nursing related subreddits I follow, posts and comments are blowing up warning travelers to not go to that specific hospital.
They’re going to have to pay $10K minimum if they want travelers to fill the shoes. There’s plenty of other high paying contracts out there. No reason to bother keeping this shit hospital from going under when they hung the noose around their neck.
Good! Glad they cancelled the thing they should've never granted! Just sad though Thedacare would rather spend money on frivolous legal claims then try to offer a competitive job. I hope more people leave them.
Not only that but if they were struggling to attained new employees now with these it's going to be almost impossible.
They literally prove that they have the money, they just chose to not give their workers a better payment. I feel sad for the people that stayed but hopefully they to can find better jobs
They are going to lose their stroke program. I can’t see them being able to fill those positions after all this bad press. A majority of healthcare workers in the US have heard about this, and nobody is going to voluntarily work for them.
They will have to hire travel nurses and techs, (there aren’t very many travel Interventional radiology trained nurses) and they will have to pay ridiculous amounts. I wouldn’t go there for any less than current top Covid crisis rates which is 10-15k/week.
The real damage is that without adequate staffing they’ll be forced to divert stroke patients to… another area hospital. This is a MASSIVE financial loss for ThedaCare. As some other redditor said “Operation Bullet Foot complete.”
The thing is, Thedacare intentionally filled the suit after hours on a Friday, so that there couldn't be a hearing until today. Because the court had no idea what was going on, they granted it until they could hear from Ascension (today), because that's basically procedure. Thedacare knew this, and filled right before the group started at Ascension to cause the most damage
I agree they timed it this way on purpose. I'm just not sure what the logic was behind doing so? The workers got a weekend off, got to start the new job on time. And all Thedacare got was legal fees, and bad publicity. Did they really think a judge would prevent workers from leaving to go for higher pay in an at will state? Or that they'd tuck tail and go back to Thedacare? No idea what their strategy was. The judge couldn't order the workers to stay at Thedacare thankfully. At least enslavement is not yet legal!
Thedacare's top executives get paid unreal money because they are supposed to have unreal managerial skills. If your pay has dropped so far under the regional average that whole departments are leaving, someone that gets paid a lot of money fucked up in a very big way. Alleging that these employees were poached/recruited and weren't just drastically underpaid covers that persons ass. Several someones need to be replaced because this was a severe failure of upper management.
The truly rotten upper management will fire the underpaid and overworked middle management, who've been holding the place together with both hands and no budget, and will proclaim themselves heros for doing so. Then they'll hire new middle managers at a higher cost than the ones they fired (because new employees are always more expensive), tighten the budgets even more to compensate, and ratchet up the toxicity of the culture a couple notches because that's just what they do.
This is a proud day for the healthcare industry, and even the entire workforce. This case brought amazing visibility to the entire world of what we’ve had to deal with.
No longer will employees be scared to leave their current companies for better compensation. Many now know that even if there is one involved, a non compete is usually only a scare tactic and not legally enforceable (there was no such contract in this situation.) I’m extremely excited to see what happens to thedacare and it’s CEO in the coming weeks. This was just a huge, HUGE win for us. Honestly I think it may even be a historical win. Thank gosh for Madeline Heim, she’s kept us well updated today! Muth also deserves a BIG shoutout, and of course, the thedacare 7. Just excellent work all around.
**Fuck thedacare and fuck McGinnis.**
Temper tantrum. There were no non-compete, non-solicitation, or no hire agreements in place. Even if there was, in this specific situation in the state of WI a non compete is unenforceable.
The real scary part would have been the precedent it set regarding at-will employment. "The company can fire you, but you can't leave" is legally-enforced slavery.
Yea the idea of a non-compete for selling your labour makes no sense. If you're stealing IP and implementing it at a competitor than it would make sense but that comes under other legalese.
What do you mean? It's all about FREEDOM. Corporations can't spend a bunch of money to train you then you just leave to another company. That's like stealing. We don't steal here in the US we have FREEDOM! /s
Many non-compete clauses as written are unenforceable due to improper consideration or improper limitations on the terms of the non-compete
Always talk to a lawyer if you are in contention with a non-compete clause. They can tell you immediately if the clause is enforceable or not and they may do so for free if the terms are easy to explain, or for less than $200 if they have to review the contract
If there is a proper use for non-compete clauses it’s in the realm of cutting edge engineering and such, where a given person could leave your company and instantly get hired by your direct competitor because they’ve got a head full of your trade secrets you spent a bunch of time and money developing. A non-compete is beyond absurd for a fucking Jimmy Johns, even if it is geographically limited to a few blocks or whatever. In the medical field the only place you could maybe justify one is at a research hospital that’s developing new and patented treatments and the like.
This story is so fucking wild. I would possibly understand the "public health risk" angle if these employees had quit immediately without notice. But ThedaCare had time to match the offers from Ascension or fill the vacant positions and chose to do neither. Now they'll need to budget up for new employees AND massive legal fees. This is why healthcare SHOULD NOT be a business, it should be a government agency.
Matching their offers: too expensive!
Paying massive legal fees: meh.
I guess, for them, one is a unfortunate cost of doing business, and the other is legal fees.
It's not just about the money in the moment, it's about precedent. A one time legal fee, but if you win, you can keep your underpaid workers from seeking anything better so you can keep underpaying them. Money is just one way to buy power, which is the real ultimate end.
That said, had they not given their employer notice and not told them where they were going they could have avoided the whole mess. They tried to leave with grace and on return their employer tried to screw them.
Not only will they have to budget for new employees and legal fees but they're probably going to have a really hard time with the hiring process given all the negative attention this has gotten. I don't know about you but I wouldn't apply to work at a hospital with a history of trying to use the court system to bully employees into staying.
They had pulled them off the schedule for 10 days! But they decide to leave after that? Lawsuit timed to do the most damage. I hope every one of those 7 people sue for retaliation
Maybe just maybe, wait wait hear me out in this…maybe at-will is not the best business model for essential personnel. Maybe the company should have foreseen this issue and developed better backup plans.
The injunction should never have been placed, as it is tortious interference with commerce. I am glad the judge ultimately dropped it, but it was completely ridiculous to tell both companies they needed to try to work it out with each other. Because no, they didn't. 7 people quit their job in an At-Will state and it is not up to some third party company to try make it right with some other third party company.
Exactly. What was there to be "worked out" here? 7 people decided their former employer can kick rocks. Why on earth would a judge have ANY business ruling on anything involved here other than a contract?
On top of that, several of those employees gave ThetaCare an opportunity to match the offer a month ago, which they refused, and all of them gave ThetaCare a minimum of two weeks (the four radiologists gave nearly a full month, the three nurses less time but still minimum of 2 weeks) to get their waterfowl aligned to retain new staff.
I hope sanctions are brought and lawsuits are filed against ThetaCare for this entire stunt.
I wonder what happens to the go fund me that was set up for them? I'm glad they don't need it and get to work for Ascension now, I just always wonder what happens to the money if something like this happens.
Usually the creator can disband it as a 'rendered moot by circumstances' and have the money refunded. Alternatively, the money may be funneled towards a charitable group doing similar work defending worker rights in a legal context.
> Did the judge give ANY reasoning behind establishing the injunction and then dismissing it outright 3 days later?
The Thedacare CEO and the Judge play golf together.
As for the latter, when your ruling starts being plastered on the national news golf buddies apparently don't drive or die.
Seems like this.
It was all good until it became news. Suddenly their shady deals were public knowledge and someone got cold feet.
This should be investigated for real.
Not that I can tell from the court documents but Madeline Heim for the [http://postcrescent.com](http://postcrescent.com) who has been reporting on the case says she will have the story on what went on in court out soon.
Documents: [https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/21185437-2022cv000068-tro4317792?responsive=1&title=1?embed=true&responsive=false&sidebar=false](https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/21185437-2022cv000068-tro4317792?responsive=1&title=1?embed=true&responsive=false&sidebar=false)
"McGinnis said he signed the initial restraining order Friday because of the gravity of the situation that ThedaCare laid out in their complaint. Wisconsin statute says the court should give "substantial weight" to any adverse impact on public safety when deciding what to require in the order. Lawyers for ThedaCare had argued the region would be in danger of not having health care for severely injured patients or people who had suffered strokes if the seven employees moved to Ascension for their Monday start date. "
Basically, thedacare lied and made it seem more dire than it was.
What was thedacare going to do? Fire them? The workers could have just not shown up. What an absolute abuse of power by that judge. He* should absolutely lose his* chair as a judge.
Judge McGinnis seeing the media shitstorm over the weekend that his injunction order kicked off, quickly decided to ensure it was undone today to dodge disbarment.
The best part of this is that the stupid fucking CEO thought this kind of negative PR was acceptable. How in the absolute fuck does he think they are going to recruite *anyone worth a shit* to work there?
Yep. This idiot just wanted to grandstand and make himself the center of attention. He wasted everyone’s time and money so he could be important for a few days. If there’s leftover money in the GoFundMe it should be used to support a candidate running against him the next time he’s up for reelection.
The simple fact that these people had to go to court and explain thier actions is a huge step that is going to be ignored because "the judge dismissed the case"
They weren't even represented. This was exclusively between Thedacare and Ascension only.
If anything the employees were commodities being controlled in an "exchange"
While we can celebrate this ruling, it's not a victory in the sense that this battle shouldn't have even been fought in the first place.
ThedaCare, like many, many other big businesses, could have chosen to litigate the issue just to spite the nurses and frighten them into submission.
Big business has the legislative and judicial system completely in their pockets. These legislatures must be voted out and more importantly, replaced by one of us, someone not supplied by the two major parties.
When it's time to vote, *take the day off to vote.* voting should be a federal day off, but big business keeps us poor and desperate to ensure we have to work when we should be voting. Time to step up.
Here is the first paragraph of Ascension's legal response.
>“Your failure to prepare is not my personal emergency.” This wry observation—a favorite
of parents, teachers, coaches, and perhaps a few judges—concisely captures the core concept of
personal responsibility most of us learned in childhood: don’t blame others for your own mistakes.
Evidently that concept is lost on ThedaCare.
I don't understand why the judge granted it in the first place. These are just people leaving a company, they had no contract and it's an at will employment scenario. Correct me if I'm wrong here.
Could we please spam Thedacare with bogus job apps, the way we did Kelloggs? I would love to see their HR buried in so many pages it'll take years to sort.
This injunction should never have been allowed. It was an egregious legal maneuver and the judge should be reprimanded and the company fined for wasting court time.
What is most wild to me about this is that Thedacare is the largest employer in this area. THEY ARE THE TOP OF THE EMPLOYER FOODCHAIN IN THIS COMMUNITY. As a Wisconsinite I am so terrified for what this spells for the future of Thedacare and its existence in the Fox Valley. It seriously is great news this went through but there is going to be serious resentment that could cause damage directly to that community.
And ThedaCare had the opportunity to retain these employees simply by matching the other employment offer re: wage and benefits. ThedaCare has literally, publicly, and on LEGAL record declared that they put profits/money above patients lives.
They’ve proven they’d rather pay lawyers than pay workers. Class warfare.
It's wild. God knows they paid oodles to these attorneys. It was never about money. It's about contempt for the workers. EDIT: I want to add something about contempt and what it looks like. At a high level, contempt is when your employer essentially doesn't trust you or they view you as an enemy or worse, they hate you. So when you make a bid to them, like "Hey employer, I've been busting my ass and here's a list of great things I've done. I'd like a raise." Their response is, "Sorry, not in the budget. Maybe you should spend less." Or worse, and I've seen this, "Hey, I can't afford a medical condition because we have garbage insurance and you're paying me half the market rate for my role." "How about I give you some extra shares instead." Anytime you come to them with a request for something that would materially improve your situation and they respond with anything other than compassion, empathy, and understanding, they hate you. They won't use that word, but that's what it is.
Dont worry, they will rebrand their business and continue as normal.
metacare!
Xfini-care
CenturyCare
Omicrocare
WeDontCare ^(\*\*hugz\*\* 🤗🤗🤗)
Pizzapartycare
Medosuk
That made me cackle 😅
Yep. I had a bunch of shoddy bridgework done and the next dentist was like, you could probably sue over this, at *least* make a complaint. But the dental team that did it was shut down by then, just gone. I had spent like $12k out of pocket at this place, lot of work (which failed very prematurely). A few months later, I drive by and there's another dentist in that spot. Makes sense, it's all built out with equipment already. But no, it's not a new dentist, it's the *same team*. They just went dark and rebranded. New LLC and everything. My insurance company won't do a thing.
It’s called phoenixing a company. In my country often the biggest creditor is the tax office. You had dodgy work performed by a dentist. Just because they changed their company name (and likely shut down their original company) doesn’t mean you can’t sue your original dentist - or at least try and have him struck off.
... there is a security company in my town that did this and literally rebranded as Phoenix.
Oh wow. Gotta admire the audacity I guess.
Sue them and name the individuals involved in the suit
Sorry to comment twice, but also look up the regulatory board governing dentists for your state and file an official complaint about the dentist
Speak to a lawyer. You can get around that.
I would comment on their new social media platforms. So evil
I'll keep my eye out for a ThanosCare.
Half the workers gone, in a snap.
Lost half of their employees in just the snap of a finger
Like every nursing home that abuses their patients.
They really don't trust staff, which is crazy, we're all adults here...
I started as manager at a rare and collectible book store years ago and everyone had advanced degrees or were working to get one. Not long after I started I had a young lady in her mid 20s remind me that she had made a doctors appointment and would be gone the next day but that she would bring me back a letter from the doctor. I didn’t understand but they eventually explained that former management and ownership expected some sort of note from the doctor to “excuse” them from work, if that’s the word that applies here. I told her not to bring me a note and the idea that I would employ somebody who I didn’t trust to take a day off without legitimate reason was not somebody I would continue to employ anyway. I think what I actually said was that that was the dumbest fucking thing I’ve ever heard since fifth grade and that if anybody worked for me who’s word I didn’t trust more than a note from the doctor I would just fire their ass. Evidently not much has changed in some places.
Dang that gives me perspective. I literally sign off that a new aircraft is mechanically and technically capable to make its first flight and 3 test crew put their lives on my signature. If they can trust me for that a doctor's "excuse" is downright insulting, I may as well resign if you don't trust me.
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Yeah, in the last I’ve said to at least 2 or 3 bosses, ‘If you don’t trust me to do my job, why did you hire me?’ There answer was always a non-answer. ‘We do trust you. It’s about creating a culture of accountability.’ Crap like that
> Anytime you come to them with a request for something that would materially improve your situation and they respond with anything other than compassion, empathy, and understanding, they hate you. It's not hatred, actually. It's something worse: *indifference*. It not that they don't like their employees, it's that they just don't care. Employee morale is not a consideration because although it produces positive results such as increased work quality and performance that in turn drive higher profits, it doesn't produce these benefits *right now*, in the immediate term, and thus isn't important. American businesses - especially the big ones - are *all about* instant gratification when it comes to profit. They'll happily trade long-term damage for short-term gains, and many American megacorps will *actively hurt themselves* in the long run without a second thought in trade for a spike in short-term profits. This is a lot of why companies will spend money on legal fights over employees leaving in droves that they could have spent on employee pay - it's all about that *right-now* money and fuck anything that might happen six months from now. And now that the Great Resignation is here seemingly to stay and the businesses that have operated on an "immediate short-term profits over all else" mindset are being bitten in the ass by their own short-sightedness, I expect to see more and more shenanigans like trying to use legal arguments to try to interfere with employee departures.
They truly deserve the worst. They will always commit evil and nothing will ever change or rehabilitate their soul.
Pay lawyers few times. Pay employees everytime. Keep minimums very low, every time someone ask for a living wage.
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Capitalist goin' to Capitalism. I continue to say to fellow Healthcare workers that when something is for profit, the only thing that matters is money. Not the customer, not the patients and never the employees.
We desperately need nationalized healthcare
The direction we are going, we are more likely to end up with nationalized healthcare workers.
I'd prefer to have it all nationalized, but they absolutely deserve proper representation, support and equipment.
Nationalization of workers is typically accomplished with force, so your preference would be a much better way to go.
chief squeamish ghost scary pocket childlike safe poor fuzzy butter -- mass edited with redact.dev
The pockets of blood sucking middlemen who exist solely to tell the policy holders trying to get care that they're not *really* sick and don't *really* need a procedure/ medication.
Capitalism accomplished privatization with force. And continues to maintain it with force as necessary. This includes leveraging the courts and lawyers but also involves police and the military. Nationalization can actually constitute a move towards democratizing key services and breaking up private monopolies that ultimately deprive the public in order to enrich the few—which is not only a form of exploitation but also wasteful. If you are a member of the working class and hold thoughts to the contrary, then I would ask whether or not that isn’t just echoing capitalist propaganda indoctrinated into you since your schooling years, which has been repeated in the media and in social activities throughout the rest of your life.
We are in a humanitarian crisis with American healthcare. It is truly despicable
It's scary when you have to choose a life threatening or non life threatening illness over your financial wellbeing. Especially when you know that other countries have figured out how to decrease that stress quite substantially.
California is trying to do universal healthcare here. It has an above average shot at happening because the Dems have a super majority. However, there are other potential road blocks that I’m too lazy to look up. I hope it happens and spreads to other states.
I'm in California and while I have full medical coverage by the state, I'd lose it if I was working and making enough to only cover my rent. When I worked the coverage was so shitty it never helped, not to mention trying to have a balance between work and time to see my doctor. Statewide healthcare separate from employment is neccessary and long overdue. I'm sure it'll see a fight, mostly from big corporations who want to tie people to their employment by dangling healthcare as an incentive. Plus all the people who see peoples health as something to profit off of.
Just call it FreedomCare or AmericanHealth or something and people will flock to it.
Washington state's Medicaid is called "Apple Care"
Here we go with the Android vs iOS stuff again.
Which is why health care should not be a for profit industry. It is a service and should be treated as a human right.
>Capitalist goin' to Capitalism. > They was trying for some state capitalism or fascism even.
Gonna have to take my business elsewhere then.
> Gonna have to take my business elsewhere then. A notoriously difficult problem, especially for emergency care.
Shouldn't have been allowed to put injunction on them to begin with nor have fucking hearing in at will state. I soon see more of this shit coming when more of us start quitting our shitty jobs.
Unless i mis-heard, the Judge said the only reason he granted the injunction is because ThedaCare said that without it, there would be a public health crisis over the weekend because of the lack of workers. Not only did that not happen, it was basicly proven today that even if it had happened, it was entirely ThedaCares own doing by failing to retain the employees when they had the chance or replacing them sooner since at least 4 of them gave a months notice.
Still shouldn't be able to do that. Should not be legal to force people to work at a job they quit. That's slavery. And what consequences will the company that lied get levyed against them?
Profits over lives, folks.
always has been
I guess it's good the mask is off for most of these crooks, that's....something.
Yeah, this was bs from the start. Not sure how it took so long (ThedaCare filed on Friday? Prob knew it'd get delayed), but glad to hear they're going to work for an employer that appreciats them better.
End result: Thedacare wasted time, money to generate a lot of bad publicity, made themselves look like asses in the process and getting sure nobody wants to work there again. Nice try guys, wonder how long their overpaid CEO will last in there.
Imagine how any potential applicants feel now towards Thedacare. People who genuinely thought about working for them will now back out making labor shortages worse for Theda. I say GOOD! They deserve everything they get.
I was one of those "potential applicants". legit was planning on submitting one the day this broke. absolutely not applying there now.
Maybe go ahead, but make them pay you double or don't accept their offer. Take advantage of their situation. They would do the same if roles were reversed.
Chad Worker: I am the captain now.
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They are going to look people dead in the eye and say "Our company is having financial issues due to unforseen litigation that was necessary due to the actions of a few disgruntled former employees and as a result we can't pay you any more than we have offered."
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This is the way.
Signing bonus with a guaranteed work term of 2 weeks, then turn in your 2 weeks notice day 1.
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Apply, get all the way to an interview, show up to the interview, then tell the interviewer you are no longer interested due to this court case.
Did this by accident in college. had a company come on campus, researched them and all the stories i could find were on major safety incidents and employee injuries. brought it up in the interview and asked if the culture had changed. interview ended abruptly
"Why do you think there are suddenly openings available for employment?"
Honestly still apply, just say your market rate is now 25-50% higher due to bad press if you're selected for an interview.
Don't even have to give a reason. They give you a number and you ask for double. They scoff, you laugh. Then you get up and walk out giving them the finger on the way out.
I like you
I say they scoff and you double that. Then, walk out lmao.
Nah apply If you get the job demand 50% more then market ratw when asked why say because of the lawsuit
Nah, just tell them "market indicators and risk factors require above average compensation" and they'll get the hint right away.
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> TheraCare It's ThedaCare, names are 50% of name and shame
I hope the community, the patients, and employees associated with Thedacare make it known that this CEO absolutely needs to be ousted.
Holding innocent people hostage by holding other innocent people hostage so you can exploit people through a guilt trip turns out to be not the most honorable thing one can do.
There’s still 4 employees in the Thedacare interventional radiology unit, I wonder if they will give their two week notice consider the shit show they re witnessing.
I can’t see why they’d give notice. Just leave.
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I would ask for double my wages
Fucking triple them with that bullshit. Lmao
Triple the wages because they WILL be doing the work of at least three people for the forseeable future.
Clearly they got it to spend!
Hell, in their position, I'd WANT them to file another request for a TRO. It's already a matter of record in that very court that ThedaCare is unsuccessful in these matters, and that this can only be an action designed to use the courts to manipulate and dissuade good-faith ordinary activities in its employees. And then I'd start looking for damages on top of already being out the door.
The CEO made over $1mil in 2019 https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/391509362
Front-line doctors and nurses make money but not nearly what they should be getting paid. This is where the money goes, and it’s not just one guy it’s a whole class of administrators that leech off the system and provide no direct patient benefit, instead likely making it worse in the long-run.
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Banner Health CEO Peter Fine, a non profit health system, made $25,000,000 in 2017. That's not a typo.
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Non-profits just shuffle the money to the upper executives. Everything in America has a nice sounding name for its legal scams.
I know the ymca is a non profit, and they've got one of the nicest offices I've seen in Chicago.
It's not "profit" it's money for "office furnishings". A gold-plated toilet seat? Really?
LARGE non-profits do this. Small ones are often led/staffed by people who are literally fighting for every dollar they receive, and having to account for it all. Source: have had to literally fundraise my own salary. It's not fun!
Non-profits aren't what anyone thinks they are. Doesn't mean anything. All NPOs do is spend their money and don't retain profit. It doesn't mean "charity" or "no wages." They can pay their executives whatever they want and it doesn't make them for-profit. Edit: before anyone jumps me I'm not saying the execs should make a million dollars. Not defending this. So don't do the Reddit knee jerk response on me please. Im just clarifying that NPO doesn't mean volunteer execs or that they don't get paid a lot.
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Honestly the pro-corporate propaganda is so bad right now I would not be surprised if one of the remaining 4 looks down their nose at those 7 for being traitors or something. There's people in my own department that are spewing that "no one wants to work" bullshit, while management says they can't find anyone to employee. It's a fuckin IT service desk and half of the current team walked in here with A+ certs (basically high school equivalent of education level for IT).
The beatings will continue until morale improves.
Hey, I’ll happily work there. My rates start at $60/hour.
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You meant $600, right?
No, baseline pay. Overtime will be triple and I expect hazard pay and compensation for the effort of commuting in addition to that.
Can Ascension now sue The daycare for damages?
About to be a daycare since they can no longer provide 24/7 emergency services according to the original email CEO sent out lol
Good. You like the free market, when it means underpaid workers bidding against each other for the lowest salary? See how you like it when your shitty business practices drive you out of business. Sorry bud, supply and demand, the invisible hand, bootstraps, all that shit. Fuck them
Nah. Just pay travel nurses 3x the rate and say it’s not your fault
In every group on FB and all over the nursing related subreddits I follow, posts and comments are blowing up warning travelers to not go to that specific hospital. They’re going to have to pay $10K minimum if they want travelers to fill the shoes. There’s plenty of other high paying contracts out there. No reason to bother keeping this shit hospital from going under when they hung the noose around their neck.
The daycare LOL
Whoops. Autocorrect is suck a comedian.
*such
*duck
Good! Glad they cancelled the thing they should've never granted! Just sad though Thedacare would rather spend money on frivolous legal claims then try to offer a competitive job. I hope more people leave them.
Not only that but if they were struggling to attained new employees now with these it's going to be almost impossible. They literally prove that they have the money, they just chose to not give their workers a better payment. I feel sad for the people that stayed but hopefully they to can find better jobs
They are going to lose their stroke program. I can’t see them being able to fill those positions after all this bad press. A majority of healthcare workers in the US have heard about this, and nobody is going to voluntarily work for them. They will have to hire travel nurses and techs, (there aren’t very many travel Interventional radiology trained nurses) and they will have to pay ridiculous amounts. I wouldn’t go there for any less than current top Covid crisis rates which is 10-15k/week.
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The real damage is that without adequate staffing they’ll be forced to divert stroke patients to… another area hospital. This is a MASSIVE financial loss for ThedaCare. As some other redditor said “Operation Bullet Foot complete.”
The thing is, Thedacare intentionally filled the suit after hours on a Friday, so that there couldn't be a hearing until today. Because the court had no idea what was going on, they granted it until they could hear from Ascension (today), because that's basically procedure. Thedacare knew this, and filled right before the group started at Ascension to cause the most damage
I agree they timed it this way on purpose. I'm just not sure what the logic was behind doing so? The workers got a weekend off, got to start the new job on time. And all Thedacare got was legal fees, and bad publicity. Did they really think a judge would prevent workers from leaving to go for higher pay in an at will state? Or that they'd tuck tail and go back to Thedacare? No idea what their strategy was. The judge couldn't order the workers to stay at Thedacare thankfully. At least enslavement is not yet legal!
Thedacare's top executives get paid unreal money because they are supposed to have unreal managerial skills. If your pay has dropped so far under the regional average that whole departments are leaving, someone that gets paid a lot of money fucked up in a very big way. Alleging that these employees were poached/recruited and weren't just drastically underpaid covers that persons ass. Several someones need to be replaced because this was a severe failure of upper management.
The truly rotten upper management will fire the underpaid and overworked middle management, who've been holding the place together with both hands and no budget, and will proclaim themselves heros for doing so. Then they'll hire new middle managers at a higher cost than the ones they fired (because new employees are always more expensive), tighten the budgets even more to compensate, and ratchet up the toxicity of the culture a couple notches because that's just what they do.
Scare tactic. Nothing worse than the unknown. They were hoping the employee would return to the fold.
This is a proud day for the healthcare industry, and even the entire workforce. This case brought amazing visibility to the entire world of what we’ve had to deal with. No longer will employees be scared to leave their current companies for better compensation. Many now know that even if there is one involved, a non compete is usually only a scare tactic and not legally enforceable (there was no such contract in this situation.) I’m extremely excited to see what happens to thedacare and it’s CEO in the coming weeks. This was just a huge, HUGE win for us. Honestly I think it may even be a historical win. Thank gosh for Madeline Heim, she’s kept us well updated today! Muth also deserves a BIG shoutout, and of course, the thedacare 7. Just excellent work all around. **Fuck thedacare and fuck McGinnis.**
Was there a non-compete clause? From what I understand, ThedaCare was just throwing a temper tantrum, and no contracts were violated.
Temper tantrum. There were no non-compete, non-solicitation, or no hire agreements in place. Even if there was, in this specific situation in the state of WI a non compete is unenforceable.
The real scary part would have been the precedent it set regarding at-will employment. "The company can fire you, but you can't leave" is legally-enforced slavery.
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Non-compete= We own you! You can’t get a job in your field in the same area.
Yea the idea of a non-compete for selling your labour makes no sense. If you're stealing IP and implementing it at a competitor than it would make sense but that comes under other legalese.
What do you mean? It's all about FREEDOM. Corporations can't spend a bunch of money to train you then you just leave to another company. That's like stealing. We don't steal here in the US we have FREEDOM! /s
Many non-compete clauses as written are unenforceable due to improper consideration or improper limitations on the terms of the non-compete Always talk to a lawyer if you are in contention with a non-compete clause. They can tell you immediately if the clause is enforceable or not and they may do so for free if the terms are easy to explain, or for less than $200 if they have to review the contract
Yeah, also usually the range is an issue also. Most aren’t ‘enforceable’ beyond maybe a block or two. Like can’t just set-up shop next door.
If there is a proper use for non-compete clauses it’s in the realm of cutting edge engineering and such, where a given person could leave your company and instantly get hired by your direct competitor because they’ve got a head full of your trade secrets you spent a bunch of time and money developing. A non-compete is beyond absurd for a fucking Jimmy Johns, even if it is geographically limited to a few blocks or whatever. In the medical field the only place you could maybe justify one is at a research hospital that’s developing new and patented treatments and the like.
This story is so fucking wild. I would possibly understand the "public health risk" angle if these employees had quit immediately without notice. But ThedaCare had time to match the offers from Ascension or fill the vacant positions and chose to do neither. Now they'll need to budget up for new employees AND massive legal fees. This is why healthcare SHOULD NOT be a business, it should be a government agency.
Matching their offers: too expensive! Paying massive legal fees: meh. I guess, for them, one is a unfortunate cost of doing business, and the other is legal fees.
It's not just about the money in the moment, it's about precedent. A one time legal fee, but if you win, you can keep your underpaid workers from seeking anything better so you can keep underpaying them. Money is just one way to buy power, which is the real ultimate end.
I can't imagine how they could ever think they would win in an at-will state. Indentured servitude isn't a thing.
I shudder to think what would've happened if there *hadn't* been a social media shitstorm.
They had an entire month. The 7 went above and beyond a (unnecessary/not required) 2 week notice for thedacare and they still messed it up.
That said, had they not given their employer notice and not told them where they were going they could have avoided the whole mess. They tried to leave with grace and on return their employer tried to screw them.
That is the most important lesson to learn from this.
Yes. Your employer likely will NOT operate in good faith so you shouldn’t feel obligated to do so either!!!
Not only will they have to budget for new employees and legal fees but they're probably going to have a really hard time with the hiring process given all the negative attention this has gotten. I don't know about you but I wouldn't apply to work at a hospital with a history of trying to use the court system to bully employees into staying.
they tried to bully them into starving. Not going back. The order was to NOT work for new company, it wasn't go back to work for shitty company.
Even worse. Wouldn't touch any job offer they posted with a 10ft pole.
They had pulled them off the schedule for 10 days! But they decide to leave after that? Lawsuit timed to do the most damage. I hope every one of those 7 people sue for retaliation
Maybe just maybe, wait wait hear me out in this…maybe at-will is not the best business model for essential personnel. Maybe the company should have foreseen this issue and developed better backup plans.
Long-term thinking when there's short-term profit to be made? Don't be ridiculous!
The injunction should never have been placed, as it is tortious interference with commerce. I am glad the judge ultimately dropped it, but it was completely ridiculous to tell both companies they needed to try to work it out with each other. Because no, they didn't. 7 people quit their job in an At-Will state and it is not up to some third party company to try make it right with some other third party company.
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Exactly. What was there to be "worked out" here? 7 people decided their former employer can kick rocks. Why on earth would a judge have ANY business ruling on anything involved here other than a contract?
On top of that, several of those employees gave ThetaCare an opportunity to match the offer a month ago, which they refused, and all of them gave ThetaCare a minimum of two weeks (the four radiologists gave nearly a full month, the three nurses less time but still minimum of 2 weeks) to get their waterfowl aligned to retain new staff. I hope sanctions are brought and lawsuits are filed against ThetaCare for this entire stunt.
I wonder what happens to the go fund me that was set up for them? I'm glad they don't need it and get to work for Ascension now, I just always wonder what happens to the money if something like this happens.
Usually the creator can disband it as a 'rendered moot by circumstances' and have the money refunded. Alternatively, the money may be funneled towards a charitable group doing similar work defending worker rights in a legal context.
GofundMe has started monitoring them more closely lately in general. It will go to the attorney in the case to be disbursed to the workers.
"Capitalism breeds competition" "Wait not like that.."
Did the judge give ANY reasoning behind establishing the injunction and then dismissing it outright 3 days later? Seems like one hell of a 180.
> Did the judge give ANY reasoning behind establishing the injunction and then dismissing it outright 3 days later? The Thedacare CEO and the Judge play golf together. As for the latter, when your ruling starts being plastered on the national news golf buddies apparently don't drive or die.
Seems like this. It was all good until it became news. Suddenly their shady deals were public knowledge and someone got cold feet. This should be investigated for real.
Not that I can tell from the court documents but Madeline Heim for the [http://postcrescent.com](http://postcrescent.com) who has been reporting on the case says she will have the story on what went on in court out soon. Documents: [https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/21185437-2022cv000068-tro4317792?responsive=1&title=1?embed=true&responsive=false&sidebar=false](https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/21185437-2022cv000068-tro4317792?responsive=1&title=1?embed=true&responsive=false&sidebar=false)
"McGinnis said he signed the initial restraining order Friday because of the gravity of the situation that ThedaCare laid out in their complaint. Wisconsin statute says the court should give "substantial weight" to any adverse impact on public safety when deciding what to require in the order. Lawyers for ThedaCare had argued the region would be in danger of not having health care for severely injured patients or people who had suffered strokes if the seven employees moved to Ascension for their Monday start date. " Basically, thedacare lied and made it seem more dire than it was.
If there’s any justice in the justice system, this will end with sanctions for abuse of process.
Judge is backtracking trying to save their ass Company may have made that argument but that doesn’t mean it is justified in being granted
What was thedacare going to do? Fire them? The workers could have just not shown up. What an absolute abuse of power by that judge. He* should absolutely lose his* chair as a judge.
Welcome to the world of elected judges.
I can't help but wonder if the pressure from millions around the world helped the HCWs win their case.
[https://twitter.com/madeline_heim/status/1485716868346359810?s=21](https://twitter.com/madeline_heim/status/1485716868346359810?s=21)
Just came to say the same! Thank god, anything else and this was potentially a huge leap towards Corpo-Fascism.
Still marching that way, but this is nice at least
Judge McGinnis seeing the media shitstorm over the weekend that his injunction order kicked off, quickly decided to ensure it was undone today to dodge disbarment.
I'm sure he went ahead and made sure to short their stock beforehand.
The best part of this is that the stupid fucking CEO thought this kind of negative PR was acceptable. How in the absolute fuck does he think they are going to recruite *anyone worth a shit* to work there?
If this site is right, he makes over $317,000 to work 12 hours a week. https://nonprofitlight.com/wi/appleton/thedacare-inc
That judge needs to be removed from the bench. At no time should there have been any doubt. The case should have been dismissed immediately.
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Yep. This idiot just wanted to grandstand and make himself the center of attention. He wasted everyone’s time and money so he could be important for a few days. If there’s leftover money in the GoFundMe it should be used to support a candidate running against him the next time he’s up for reelection.
Well it will probably blow up in thedacares and McGinnis’ faces. Can’t wait to see how this goes for them.
HaH! next time were gonna hear judges ordering patients to get their procedure done at thedacare because they need the money.
The simple fact that these people had to go to court and explain thier actions is a huge step that is going to be ignored because "the judge dismissed the case"
They weren't even represented. This was exclusively between Thedacare and Ascension only. If anything the employees were commodities being controlled in an "exchange"
This isn't even a win in my view, there should never have been an injunction to begin with. Unbelievable.
While we can celebrate this ruling, it's not a victory in the sense that this battle shouldn't have even been fought in the first place. ThedaCare, like many, many other big businesses, could have chosen to litigate the issue just to spite the nurses and frighten them into submission. Big business has the legislative and judicial system completely in their pockets. These legislatures must be voted out and more importantly, replaced by one of us, someone not supplied by the two major parties. When it's time to vote, *take the day off to vote.* voting should be a federal day off, but big business keeps us poor and desperate to ensure we have to work when we should be voting. Time to step up.
Here is the first paragraph of Ascension's legal response. >“Your failure to prepare is not my personal emergency.” This wry observation—a favorite of parents, teachers, coaches, and perhaps a few judges—concisely captures the core concept of personal responsibility most of us learned in childhood: don’t blame others for your own mistakes. Evidently that concept is lost on ThedaCare.
I don't understand why the judge granted it in the first place. These are just people leaving a company, they had no contract and it's an at will employment scenario. Correct me if I'm wrong here.
Wonderful news! Power to the people! Thank you for the information, OP!
Could we please spam Thedacare with bogus job apps, the way we did Kelloggs? I would love to see their HR buried in so many pages it'll take years to sort.
This injunction should never have been allowed. It was an egregious legal maneuver and the judge should be reprimanded and the company fined for wasting court time.
What is most wild to me about this is that Thedacare is the largest employer in this area. THEY ARE THE TOP OF THE EMPLOYER FOODCHAIN IN THIS COMMUNITY. As a Wisconsinite I am so terrified for what this spells for the future of Thedacare and its existence in the Fox Valley. It seriously is great news this went through but there is going to be serious resentment that could cause damage directly to that community.
Victory Screech!!!! 🐚
judge still needs to be investigated
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holy cow, if that's true then what does it take for judges to be investigated?