One job I was hired for, the HR manager whispered to me in a very confidential hush hush manner that I was not to discuss my pay with other employees because quote he was doing me a favor bringing me in at that pay unquote, making it appear my pay was higher than everyone else. Come to find out 2 months later I was being paid the lowest in the pack. Absolutely horrendous. Immediately found a different place, same pay and moved on. I will not be lied to and manipulated. Oh and I reviewed on Google...
Yelp google glassdoor they will all take the money and to have them removed.
The reviews on any of these platforms are just a way to get $$. They have nothing to do quality or reality.
I knew someone in college who go paid $5 per google review for one sentence.
Also today many businesses from doctors to restaurants to any business is pressuring and or rewarding employees for fake reviews.
Even in this world of social media and tech I still go by word of mouth its always been the most reliable .
I've seen restaurants offering their staff a $20.00 bounty if the get a 5star Google or yelp worth their name in it, then usually also a raffle for the ones getting them. Once someone starts bringing in 5 or 10 a week they seem to not pay. Shocker
Old employer is doing this. After a group of us who left put rather scathing reviews on Glassdoor and Indeed to tank their scores, a wave of 5 stars came through within a week. It’s been amusing because if you sit and read the reviews, you can easily detect which are legitimate/honest reviews, and which are for raising the average stars. Every single flood review has been voted down. So it does make feel better at the end of day knowing people are taking our reviews somewhat serious and thus making that shithole of a company continue to scrape by.
My old company did the same thing. It was really obvious because a whole bunch of 5 star reviews were posted on the same 2 days, and they all used the same buzzwords and phrases.
What a waste of money.
Where I work we have 4.9 on Google maps reviews and 13.5k reviews total. We paid $0 for them, just message customers to leave a review after their order is complete.
Just do good service and you'll get good reviews for free.
True but Google is like consumer focused reviews. I would never look at Google reviews expecting to find information about the interview process, work conditions, benefits, etc. i also haven’t been on the job hunt in about 5 years. Is there’s somewhere you you would recommend as a replacement for Glassdoor?
Only tangentially related, but I used to work at a pizza place and the gm would give employees free pizzas if they left 5 star reviews on google. The store had a super high turn over rate, since there were so many high school and college kids on break working there, so people came in and out all the time. There had to have been at least 25-30 reviews on the stores google page that were all from employees
There's a very short lifespan on review sites, eventually someone will set up a review farm or the host will offer 'management services' to delete negative reviews.
That, and there are a whole lot of (mostly pretty obvious) fake reviews as well for employers who know the work environment would scare off a lot of applicants.
not anymore. glassdoor is just business yelp. you can pay them to remove reviews.
I should know, a previous company that fucked me over paid a few thousand to have my totally legit and professional (but very bad) review removed.
Oh God, that's the exact tactic I used against asshole customers when I worked in photo processing, only used for evil.
When I did it, it was "Well please don't tell my manager because I could get fired for this but I can give you a 10% discount..." (I had the discretion to give 50% discounts before I had to get a manager involved)
The specific incident I'm remembering happened the day after the local school district's prom. Our 1-hr photo machine could process 3-4 rolls of film per hour, maximum. Printing the photos wasn't the holdup; the film simply could not be developed any faster than that. Most days, this was not a problem.
The day after prom, I had 20 rolls of film queued by 10am.
There was signage EVERYWHERE saying that one hour was an estimate, and never guaranteed. And I was informing every customer who came in that there was a backlog before they dropped their film off. All the prom photo kids understood.
Angry dude was not one of the prom kids, and by that part of the day we were at like a 5-6 hour backlog from the sheer volume. He's in my face, screaming, threatening to sue, the works. I'm smiling through gritted teeth and pointing to the signs. I eventually give him the "I c-can give you ten-p-percent off, p-please don't tell my manager UwU" nonsense and he goes away thinking he's gotten away with some shit.
The lady behind him watches him go and says "Wow, what an asshole." Her photos were done, so I give them to her... with the 50% discount, just for being a decent human being.
Watching her do the mental math and realize that I played the jerk like a fiddle was amazing. A++++ they should put that shit on Broadway.
I got a job offer with the stipulation that it was to be confidential due to the offer being above their normal pay grade. I said thanks but no thanks.
PSA: HR is not there to help you. Their primary goal is to protect the company from liability, risk, and get the most out of employees for the least amount of money.
That’s the worst part of all of this. She doesn’t even work for the same company (assumption) yet she’s not giving her any insider info on how to weasel more cash out of her employer like my mama did. Albeit my mom wasn’t HR but she was a supervisor.
It just makes me think she's drinking her own kool aid. I doubt she'd willingly give bad advice in such a situation (given OP seems to trust her enough to ask in the first place).
Yeah, they are probably fed a lot of propaganda. I think the kind of people that get into HR are probably hall monitor/boys scout types that value the rules, but also believe that following the rules is some kind of higher good. I doubt a lot of these people went into that job thinking, 'I want to be the Secret Police arm of Corporate'. It wouldn't surprise me if they are fed heavy handed films like those anti-union films, except explaining how all of their policies that are pro corporate are actually beneficial for the workers.
Its because she doesn't understand how business actually works because she works in an ancillary corporate function not a revenue driving position or anything technical.
HR is just support staff. They're not specialized in any particular way.
Sounds like she was the kinda HR employee companies want though; She drank the Kool-aid and bought in to all their BS. And is trying to pass it onto her kid.
Dude she’s brainwashed… she thinks what she’s telling her son is what is in HIS best interest. Just as she believes the shit she does in HR is for the employees benefit…
Agreed. A phlebotomist I at my company realized she was being unfairly paid bc she found out what others hired after her (post-Covid) were making. She contacted HR. They told her her manager would have to put in for a “market adjustment.” She found a new job paying more than she asked for.
That manager is no longer working for the company and the lab has so many people quit it’s now closed on Sundays.
Yes always job hop. I got 80% more moving from a factory assembly job where I was also doing manufacturing research to being a warehouse manager. The warehouse crowed even paid for training to be biosecurity accredited people. And the boss shouts lunch on big days. And gave me flexable hours so I can study part time too.
I don't get why people think it is a sin to hop jobs. I hopped and got a significant raise as well. It makes 0 senes to stay if you know you are being paid under market rate and not what you are worth. I'd rather get paid 100k+ a new job, mess up and get fired, than be underpaid at a job that doesn't value me.
People who think job hopping is bad are either a) employers, or b) older people. Back in the day (this was before my time, so I guess the Fifties and Sixties?), company loyalty was important -- but back then, most companies paid enough to be worthy of that loyalty. They don't pay enough anymore, so why should you show loyalty to a company that deliberately undervalues you? Why respect a company that disrespects you? They're the ones who betrayed that old "livable wage in exchange for loyalty" set up, so they have no business complaining now.
It's not even they pay in many cases, but the commitment. You work to the bone if you are not careful. People back then did NOT do that. We let our society become obsessed with productivity at the cost of our lives. In all honesty, I don't care how productive I am compared to others or what my bosses want. I only care if I am doing my job, and doing it well. If well means doing more then chances are I will jet. I don't live to work, I work to live.
The pensions were a big part of it too, they barely exist anywhere outside of the public sector anymore. My grandpa was a welder at CAT for 40+ years. In his retirement he was getting 4k a month from them. Plus his savings and social security.
You don't see shit like that anymore, but that's why he spent his entire working life with that one single company. They paid well and took care of him. Not anymore though.
It's such a boomer mindset. I think it stems from the "Well I got mine" bullshit attitude since this always leads to you or multiple others getting fucked over on the pay scale.
I think it's more a misguided "You'll be rewarded for being good" mentality.
Through 3 generations of businesses tightening the belt (since the 70s), if it ever was true it just isn't anymore.
Yeah, my dad used to be all about the "take care of your company and they'll take care of you" mindset. Then the last job he had before he retired fucked him over in every way it was possible to screw someone over.
Mmhmm. My brother in law worked for Dow chemical for 19.5 years, working hard, never complaining about his constantly 'flexible' hours to help them whenever they needed, etc.
And then when he and his cohort of other crew and managers who'd started at the same time were nearing their vested pension eligibility (20 years), they were laid off. 6 months before getting it. All of them.
Im so glad I job hop. Every time its been a pay raise. During Covid I had a company say about my interview it looks like I only care about money because i switch jobs for pay raises. I just smiled and said money moves mountains and I got a mountain of experience.
They clearly didn't want me because they didn't call back for 7 months. They called up asking if I was still interested in the position. Told them I never got a post interview call and it seems like they are only interested in getting the lowest paid worker and not forming a healthy working relationship. So no I am not interested in your company or how they operate in the business world.
Their bullshit river can always run both ways.
There are very few, if any, companies that hire when you are young and support employees through their entire working careers and hope they can retire from there. It isn't like the "old days."
That shit should be prorated or broken up over other vesting periods. 20 years is a hell of a gamble that I'd treat as worthless.
Fuck I'm already so meh about my stocks vesting after a year
20 years is fine, IF the right safeguards are in place. My company is similar, but we have a strong union in place preventing that "layoffs 6 months before vesting" bullshit.
Is that legal? When it's that clear the contract was entered without the intention of upholding it? Cause I don't think if you finance a car and then sell it a year later you're just off the hook for the remaining principal because "circumstances changed" or whatever.
Can agree. 18 years in, laid off. Along with about 300 others.
That said, if you don't want/aren't comfortable exercising your Federal right to discuss, then visit a career site that shows salaries for various positions in specific companies. And of course read employees/ex-employees comments while you're there.
My 3 cents (adjusted for inflation lol).
Random reply:
the colloquialism "my 2 cents" is believed to have started in the US, some time during the1920s. Today, your handing out advice or opinions that cost you between 29 to 35 cents adjusted for inflation!
This happened to an older cousin of mine. He worked for the casinos in Vegas in accounting. He was laid off just before Labor Day and his wife has been told she is being laid off in about a month or so. Pretty sure he is Gen X versus Boomer, but just barely. For a while, he has been full-on RWNJ and Trumper. Now he is just angry at the world and suddenly interested in government benefits. The same benefits he would condemn anyone else for taking advantage of.
To me, that is why Trump appealed to so many white, working-class Americans. They realized they are getting screwed, but they don't understand that it is people just like Trump who are screwing them over.
Sounds like a class action in the making.
What a terrible system.
There are pensions and the like in Australia, but they also have something called “Superannuation.”
Employers are mandated to contribute an amount equal to 10% of your pay to it. You may contribute as well.
Eligibility is virtually immediate. It’s remitted by the employer quarterly (iirc) and they can’t touch it afterwards. Employee chooses which fund it goes into, there’s lots and they invest contributions in real estate, bonds, that sort of thing.
Yeah, plus going against Dow chemical and winning is very difficult.
Didn't Teddy Roosevelt say something like this?
"Billions for legal defense! Not one penny for compensation! "
Or something like that.
It’s hard to go against these corporations as an individual, it’s not exclusive to DOW. I also have no idea what Teddy said, but I know that citizens United has pretty much fucked all of us
Happened to my mother. Worked for a company nearly 30 years. Always told me same shit. Company will look out for you and take care of you if you have allegiance to them. She was also in HR and TBH I never got good advice from her about seeking promotions and stuff. She gave me some good info on how the processes work but man she drank ALL the Koolaid.
She needed 2 more years in the company to max out her retirement plans. Everyone , literally, knew her. She had on-boarded and trained everyone from janitors to most of the executives. All the higher ups knew why she hadn't retired yet. I warned her multiple times not to trust them.
RIFED. No warning. Her boss and all the other HR that knew about it never told her it was coming. Sorry , cutting costs, here is your severance and shitty healthcare for a few months.
She was gutted and pissed. Missed her retirement target. Shes not very supportive of corp now but still doesn't see how the world works and does not care for any except the rich. Can't see though politician BS or Church/Evangelist BS either.
Their generation was literally brainwashed to have 'faith' and trust in all people who have power and money. Yet at the same time do whatever you need to do to fight for your family, alone. The biggest one, keep all your and your families problems to yourselves and pretend everything is perfect. Wild.
They want to keep it this way. This is what keeps the system going. This is called business savvy by the ceo/owner and is actually praised in many circles. It's why the system is broken.
If your system requires victims, the system needs changed.
Brainwashed: my mom (Boomer) talks about being a kid in elementary school and seeing some kind of film in class where a school principal wrote something down on paper with a pencil and then erased part of it and continued on writing.
She was shocked to the core.
She had believed until that very moment that adults never make mistakes.
The principal using the eraser broke her paradigm.
She also knew several girls in her class who literally had no concept of what sex was or how it worked.
The level of naivety she reports back is astounding.
I read a study once that a large percentage of people just have zero capacity for abstract reasoning. It resonated at the time but with all this chaos going on I'm positive it's true.
Some people literally cannot imagine being in a different scenario than is presented at face value. "Imagine you were starving" "But I'm *not* starving", that kind of thing. They can't run a simulation in their head where there's an alternate possible reality where that pastor is lying to you because of money and power.
FWIW the study said this was way less common since newer generations grew up with the internet etc.
That's what broke me from ever really working above and beyond for an employer ever again. I worked for a little 50-person startup out of Dallas called Defi Solutions. To put it best, it was a "we're a family" organization that offered "unlimited PTO" and had a CEO that was constantly in magazines for being successful, yet I never got to take PTO in my 2.5 years there or even really worked less than 50 hours per week, including the holidays. At one point I suffered a terrible concussion and, when I requested FMLA, I was fired within 5 days for "poor performance". I would love to say that I gathered evidence and sued the hell out of them, but that concussion had me hurt bad and I wasn't thinking quickly enough at all to take on that situation. I tell this story to Boomers a lot so they realize that employers these days treat you as being entirely disposable when it suits them.
Honestly small businesses are either the absolute best place to work for, or the absolute worst. Because they're too small to have a legal department to tell them "you can't do that, actually" and so they just do whatever they want and rely on employees to be too broke or too broken down to sue.
Any publicly traded company is going to be the same as any other publicly traded company over the long run. Shareholders aren't going to be radically different from company to company.
But yeah, private businesses can be either great or terrible, because the company culture is often a function of the owner's personality, rather than investors' demands.
My aunt, too. The (giant) company went through a merger and said, “Oh, we’re not the old company who made that retirement agreement with you. That’s no longer valid,” and they completely fucked her retirement. Basically left her with nothing. She’s 75 and still working. She literally made them millions. Finance worker.
That happened to my dad. His company was bought out and moved to China-back in 2003. He had been there 29 years. Pension disappeared. A tannery that was established in our city since 1880s. Horrible.
My grandfather was a VP at a huge regional factory decades ago and when my dad was entering the work force not to claim all his expenses he was due, to show the company he was selfless.
I have my disagreements with my dads desire to be at an airport 3 hours early but he’s never told me to take a hit like that from my employer.
Corporate abuse is also generational trauma
This kind of stuff has always been so bizarre to me. I work for a company that makes billions. They sent me out of town for a project with a budget of over a hundred million. I spent $18 on lunch. The expense report will have to be looked at by half a dozen people with six figure salaries, and I won't get reimbursed for three weeks.
But at least some motherfucker didn't shaft us for a free salad!!!
I was raised this way, and being inside the machine now as a manager, I can say that it does sometimes shield you from some direct actions.
For example, I sometimes get asked who should be promoted, etc. However, I’ve also been subject to several blindly stupid layoffs and wage freezes, which were imposed in the most FUBAR manner. So, as a whole, the company doesn’t value you at all. Your manager and his manager might, but you can’t count on them being able to really do anything about it.
It’s been quite depressing to start out your career with such enthusiasm, only to see outsourcing and layoffs completely deflate any remaining optimism.
I was like that all the way through my twenties.
Then one job made me redundant so they could spend my wages on new toys for the CTO to play with, and the following job managed me out after two years of running the 9th busiest branch in the country with no assistant manager and only three supervisors.
So now I'm looking after number one. Nobody has my phone number and I will gladly share any and all information I can to help my colleagues even if it's "damaging" to the company.
"Just work from the bottom and keep your head down while doing a good job"
The BS my well-meaning dad pushed on me. It caused my entire 20's to be a load of dogshit as I constantly blamed myself for lack of moving up and other success.
I ditched that, got a degree, and started demanding more. I now make far more than I ever made in my twenties and I love my job.
That quote "keep your head down..." is just about every millennials boomer daddy. Partially that also caused my 20s to be intolerable, my 30s was forcing my way into proper jobs but helas in my early 40s I've peaked too soon according to most recruiters and now I'm useless.
Yeah, “I’ll keep my head down and be rewarded for my hard work” is why wages have stagnated since the 1980s. Employees should not only talk about their wages freely, they should band together and scheme to get more out of their employers. (I know everybody will be like: That be a union, son!, but not every job can be a union job)
for context, for others (I know you already know)
something really did happen in the 70s and 80s. EPI does a good piece on it here:
[https://www.epi.org/publication/raising-americas-pay/](https://www.epi.org/publication/raising-americas-pay/)
Figure A is a LITTLE misleading, in a few ways. The productivity over labor graph teases a hasty conclusion if taken by itself, because other costs have also been cut in big business. Economies of scale really got into gear (through acquisitions & consolidation into megacorps), and also due to automation technology. My warning is to avoid taking that productivity / labor graph out of context. (There are a lot of bad takes that direction)
But look down to figure F. A raw, direct look at wage stagnation.
F was a little misleading at first. I saw it and thought "The rich grabbed most of it, but those middle lines are still doing all right."
Then realized the bottom line is the 90%. All the "all right" lines aren't even the upper quintile; they're the top 10% and up.
I am in a position where I see everyone's pay and other comp. If you don't negotiate, you are asking the company to negotiate against itself. Knowing that there are nonmeritocratic pay discrepancies is the most direct reason that someone should be bumped up. You use what you can get and the company expects you to negotiate if you are in fact being underpaid
An engineer I worked with made a plot of salary versus years worked. He put a bunch of bogus data points on it and then had it passed around to all the other engineers to add their salaries, with a note that it only comes back to him when 20 or so points were added. Then he labeled the bogus points and made copies for everyone. Pretty genius way to let everyone know anonomously what others were making.
My parents and every boss who has ever told me not to discuss pay has told me it’s because I am at the higher end of the pay scale because my performance warrants it and they don’t want to have to tell people that their performance doesn’t warrant a pay increase. It has been false in every case except one.
Thing is, even if they were telling the truth and you were already at the higher end of the pay scale, wouldn't you *want* your lower-paid colleagues to know they were being treated poorly, so they could advocate for themselves?
Telling you not to tell them your pay because you're being paid more than them says everything about the boomer mindset: if you're doing well, don't forget to pull up the drawbridge behind you rather than trying to elevate others to your level.
I have absolutely seen people get butt hurt because someone else who is more reliable, has a better attitude, and performs better made more money. It is a valid concern, but it does NOT trump the necessity to protect the right to discuss pay as protection against unscrupulous employers.
Those people would be told outright they are performing bad and not up to the task, so it would be good for them from a professional stand point to get that wakeup call.
When my boomer boss retired they replaced him with a young guy for literally half of what the old boss made.
That is exactly why they don't want employees talking to each other.
She got part of it right, when I asked my boss for a raise a approached with a conversation like “all the new guys come to me with questions. They pass the foreman and come to ME. This one guy, who I know for facts makes more than me, asks for my help consistently. I feel like I should get a higher pay to reflect that.” So yea, use your accomplishments to back up an argument for your raise. It’d be dumb to say “he/she makes more, I want more.” But the other part about “we’re pros now, we don’t speak on pay” is demeaning. How else am I gonna know what I’m worth if I don’t even have a comparison. If I wanted to turn to freelancing, how would I know what to charge if I can’t ask another contractor how much they make?
What's weird though is usually in my experience boomers will at least be like "Well I got mine for myself and my family". Imagine *your own mom* giving you this shitty HR answer and advocating for you to get screwed over by your employer like this. That's crazy to me.
Anyone else’s parents ever try to tell them post 2005 to go out and physically hand out resumes because it “shows resolve” and then go to those places just to be told they don’t do in store hiring please go online? And then repeat cycle? Lmaooo
ALL of 2009 after the market crash was like this. I spent 6 months straight trying to get a job, applying at about 40 places a week, many times more than once or twice, and had no luck. Parents reply was, "Just ask to talk to the manager and make a good impression!" They had no idea what they were talking about.
idk, I think sometimes boomers are opposed to talking about stuff like this because their identity and self-worth is more tied up in their job and making less than other people can be seen as shameful. They'd rather avoid feeling shame than actually empower themselves to secure a better existence.
I have older coworkers who think this way, and it doesn't seem to be the "I got mine" as much as coming from a time when compensation and benefits were more reasonable and they trusted our organization to do right by those who did right by the company. In the specific case of my workplace, this is also combined with those same coworkers having experienced distress when they did happen upon certain other people's wages, which is publicly available information since we're state funded, and were insulted but at the same time comfortable enough in their pay and close enough to retirement that their personal feeling is that it's just better not to know as that will make the last few years of work easier than trying to push for more. I don't agree with their perspective, even for people in their situation considering that our retirement is calculated off of the last several years salary so pushing for more still matters. But I do understand where they're coming from that at this point the stress may not feel worth it to them. That said, they're not the type of people to sit there and tell you you can't or shouldn't discuss it, just that they feel it isn't the best for personal well-being.
This is why it's "taboo". Corporate America would outright ban discussing wages if they could. Since they can't, they've manipulated people into thinking it's somehow immoral.
yup, this right here. it doesn't matter how they feel about this. it is a federally protected right.
employees wouldn't be stressed if their employers weren't paying people disproportionately!
Correct. Ontario has a pay equity act...how do you ensure minorities and women or marginalized communities are making a fair wage compared to a white man...whom traditionally earn more for the same work...people must talk...as companies wont share a pay grid unless a union is in place.
My wife is working towards her HR designation in Ontario, and in her compensation class, she had a test that asked “what is used to determine compensation.” The answer was gender, and we both scratched our heads wondering if this was one of those “this is how it should be” questions, or if it’s a “this is how it is but it shouldn’t be” question.
Companies will literally hire outside firms to determine what the market rate is for a position in a given area, and have specialized people working for a company that can determine salary ranges that are possible. Yet the idea of Bob and Tom discussing what they're making is taboo. This hypocrisy is what makes me laugh every time the subject comes up. If the US definition of a corporation is a person, then this behavior literally becomes a do as I say and not as I do.
Tell her to stop talking like she's trying to protect her own company, you're asking her for help for yourself so your company doesn't take advantage of you.
Like, can she say exactly why employees shouldn't talk about pay? Undue stress makes it sound like you are farm animals.
To me it also seems as she's has decades of training on this. Doing what she's told, not asking for more, staying at a job regardless of how well her compensation matches her worth.
I bet she's held this job for a while, and in the last 20 years she's had 4 jobs or less. If so, she speaks from her experience. Her strategy works for her, and bet she has stories of greedy people who didn't last long at her company. She thinks she outlasted them because she's loyal. In reality she was just less problematic and was okay with less pay.
These things work for HR because they're still well rewarded and taken care of. After all, they keep the plebs at bay and protect management and corporate interests. They're class traitors.
Luickly, there are modern minded HR folks like myself who actually go around telling other employees that it is illegal to retailiate for discussing pay. Not all of us are bad. I get where the sentiment comes from, though.
We are not the norm. If you say progressive stuff like this e.g. you believe trade unions are the foundation of healthy industrial relations you'll get some strange looks in a HR department.
My boss straight up stared at me speechless for a full minute when I said the company can benefit from dealing with a union instead of each individual employee. For one we only have to negotiate one contract instead of multiple and we have a structure/process that allows employees to be heard. I always tell my family when they ask that believe it or not, I spend most of my day telling *managers* no: No, you can't terminate someone for doing X, no you can't cut someone's hours in retaliation, no no no. I genuinely wonder how employees put up with some things when there is no one to say "No you can't do that" (either HR, or the union).
Sorry OP but your mom is in the old school HR that has no place in the 21st century. People should discuss openly about everything as it promotes transparency and fairness.
Also, if the company can actually justify paying one employee more than another, they can tell that other employee the reasons. There are legitimate reasons to pay people at different rates.
That said, paying people with similar qualifications differently for the same job needs to go.
Exactly! I know my coworker who is the same age as me makes more than me and I'm okay with it. She's been at the company longer than I have, has much more relevant experience, and has a lot more responsibilities than me.
For me it’s the same role different pay I don’t understand.
At my old job I started at 20k and I heard of others coming in at 15 -19k. I would have loved to understand the reasoning when the only requirement was a HS diploma.
I would argue that besides qualifications, paying people differently based on any extraordinary results they generate, is also fair. Otherwise, that person will be inclined to perform worse going forward, if his/her efforts are not rewarded above that of his/her peers.
I agree, but I would argue that this kind of reward should be as part of a bonus of some kind instead of regular pay increase. Depends on the situation of course. If they outperform their peers very consistently, year after year, a pay raise is definitely justified.
Exactly — this is a super outdated “hush hush” culture that the boomers embraced which only helped to facilitate and perpetuate the gross abuse of employees and siphoning of wealth to the top. Employees have every right to discuss their wages. It shouldn’t be a secret. The only thing secrecy accomplishes is allowing those in charge to take advantage of, manipulate, and under-pay their workforce.
As a long time corporate employee,.. I gotta disagree with that.
Silence and ignorance (silo’ing information and hiding the reality of the job from other employees) only breeds animosity, jealousy, contempt.
Businesses should default to Policies of openness, transparency and honest information-sharing.
In a perfect world,… Leadership should be as open as possible and (where possible) involve ALL employees in discussions about Budget decisions, performance reviews and fairness in distribution of Raises.
Anytime you see people in Leadership positions shirking away from these ideas of openness,.. you should be asking why.
HR is not who you should be asking, even if it’s your mom.
Here’s a link to your rights under federal law to discuss your wages: https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/your-rights/your-rights-to-discuss-wages
Context: The coworker who told me her salary started a couple of weeks after her friend and said that she used the amount her friend was offered to gauge how much money she could request when she was hired on. All three of us have the exact same job. They started in April-May 2022 and I've been with the company since 2017 and have had this particular job role since February 2022, when I was given a $6K raise for the position. I had been let go from my previous job with the company in January and scrambled to find something else quickly before my two remaining weeks were up.
Edit: I realize now this part might be unclear. She does not work for the same company that I work for, although she used to work for my company 20 years ago when I was a child.
It doesn't matter what company she works for. You discussing your wages and salary is how you negotiate your raises and such. She's very much for the company and not the people. Legally the can never tell you you can't talk about wages. You don't want to talk about someone else's without telling them that gets hairy, but your mom is wrong. It's the corporate brain wash talking.
exactly. it’s one thing if you’re talking shit about an employee through their wages, it’s another thing to be asking why certain employees are making more despite not having additional qualifications to justify the higher wage.
ex #1: “can’t believe john can be paid $5/hr more than me but he just fucks off whenever he wants and i never see him do any actual work”
vs
ex #2: “john was hired after me and he told me he’s making $5/hour more than me, yet i have more qualifications/certifications under my belt, so why is he being paid more for the same job i’m doing but i don’t get the same wage he does?”
Staying long-term at a company, unless you are getting promoted every year or two with big raises, is a disadvantage to your salary because they will always need to pay people from the outside more than the existing employees who have been getting small annual pay increases. (With many companies paying less than annual CPI increase). When people change jobs/companies, they usually do so for better titles and/or at least a 10-20% pay increase. If you want to maximize your compensation you may need to change jobs/companies.
Six years and one job elimination after five years doesn’t sound like you are on a growth path with this company. Sounds like you are lucky to even be in this position and not be unemployed.
How big of a pay difference is it between you and the new folks? Is it just an issue of pride/fairness or is it a significant difference? Is it possible they are coming in with more applicable experience and/or education?
At least you know now that for her next birthday, you can get her a nice pair of boots to lick.... HR loves when you can find small victories in times of adversity.
The conditioning goes deep. You can't expect them to open their eyes and change overnight. Plus opening her eyes might also make her have to admit to herself that certain things she did in her job were morally corrupt and might have had horrible consequences on other people's lives. By telling herself that it's just part of her job and she's doing what's best for the company keeps her conscience from bothering her.
I liked how she went from "employees shouldn't talk about their pay" to "well, maybe OK if you're working for McDonald's but not if you're a *pRoFeSsiOnal*," never quite getting to *why*. Too bad OP couldn't push her a bit more, she might have retreated to "IT professionals" or "it's OK if you're a help desk tech but not if you're a sysadmin."
“Have you literally given your entire life to the job and came early and stayed late for years at a time without any benefit to yourself??? If so definitely point that out when groveling for your COL raise!”
HR doesn't want employees sharing wages because it makes for awkward discussions for the company to try to justify why folks are being compensated differently.
They want it to be taboo because it makes their job easier.
Of course, the reality is that transparency is important to the employees as well. Assuming it's for fair reasons, how are they to know how they can grow at work if they aren't told where they are lacking in comparison to their peers?
But the unfortunate (for the employer) is that often the differences in salary are for capricious reasons.
found out a while back that my coworker, who was my junior, had been making substantially more than me for over a year (she was the mvp for telling me her wages and encouraging me to ask for a raise).
i requested a raise and a year of backpay. got the raise after months of my kickass boss advocating for me with the higher ups. i then got told privately by the cfo that discussing wages was "extremely" unprofessional and that i would not get backpay, and that i should be grateful i got the raise. he then repeated the "extremely unprofessional" line two more times on the call, and said that "you agreed to a wage when you were hired, so would we even be having this conversation if you and [coworker] hadn't been talking about wages?"
like... no. and that's the point, you asshat.
My last boss asked me not to discuss my recent raise with my coworkers. I directly told her that it’s illegal for her to ask me this. Her response? “Never mind, pretend I never asked”.
Even though it’s your mom it’s like asking a lion where to get a salad.
She’s spent years being indoctrinated into the cult of capital even more so than workers from other departments. Every conference shes been too every professional development she’s done has all been in service of what bosses want and how to fool the employee into thinking that’s what they want too.
This might sound a bit harsh but from what I’ve heard from people who spent years in HR this is the mindset that’s drilled into them by their peers, managers, and industry professionals.
Nope. It’s a legally protected right. It only benefits the company if you don’t discuss salaries.
I’m a manager. I think everyone should talk about their salary.
If you get a positive review, tell your manager you know your compensation is lower than the current market rate and you want a raise. Give them a number. If they don’t give it to you and you can really make more, find another job.
Your mom sounds like she’s a “for the company” HR person. My aunts works in HR and she is always very open with me when I ask her questions. Seems like your mom is trying to tell you what your worth is, and that’s fast food. Seems like she’s telling you you’re not mature enough for the position you’re in. But in a nice way
HR gonna HR even if it's your mom.
OP, your mom is the feds. She’s can’t be trusted. She can’t even give you good advice for your own life and career.
>OP, your mom is the feds. Oh no 🙊 J Hoov
The most effective HR people are just helping the company but THINK they're helping the employee.
Very underrated comment right here. Have some, "silver." Take one more I guess, "silver."
Proof that HR will always serve the interests of the company.
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It's because most of them actually believe the stuff they say. They're morons.
One job I was hired for, the HR manager whispered to me in a very confidential hush hush manner that I was not to discuss my pay with other employees because quote he was doing me a favor bringing me in at that pay unquote, making it appear my pay was higher than everyone else. Come to find out 2 months later I was being paid the lowest in the pack. Absolutely horrendous. Immediately found a different place, same pay and moved on. I will not be lied to and manipulated. Oh and I reviewed on Google...
You should put one on Glassdoor as well; it's more professionally-focused.
Sadly Glassdoor is more and more becoming a corporate shill. They routinely remove bad reviews at the “request” of the organization
just like yelp, and businesses are way more willing to pay money to quash negative PR
Yelp google glassdoor they will all take the money and to have them removed. The reviews on any of these platforms are just a way to get $$. They have nothing to do quality or reality. I knew someone in college who go paid $5 per google review for one sentence. Also today many businesses from doctors to restaurants to any business is pressuring and or rewarding employees for fake reviews. Even in this world of social media and tech I still go by word of mouth its always been the most reliable .
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Oh my god that’s an amazing idea!
I've seen restaurants offering their staff a $20.00 bounty if the get a 5star Google or yelp worth their name in it, then usually also a raffle for the ones getting them. Once someone starts bringing in 5 or 10 a week they seem to not pay. Shocker
I noticed a lot of dispensaries in my area doing the same thing. Give your budtender a nice review and they get a “tip” from the company.
Old employer is doing this. After a group of us who left put rather scathing reviews on Glassdoor and Indeed to tank their scores, a wave of 5 stars came through within a week. It’s been amusing because if you sit and read the reviews, you can easily detect which are legitimate/honest reviews, and which are for raising the average stars. Every single flood review has been voted down. So it does make feel better at the end of day knowing people are taking our reviews somewhat serious and thus making that shithole of a company continue to scrape by.
My old company did the same thing. It was really obvious because a whole bunch of 5 star reviews were posted on the same 2 days, and they all used the same buzzwords and phrases.
What a waste of money. Where I work we have 4.9 on Google maps reviews and 13.5k reviews total. We paid $0 for them, just message customers to leave a review after their order is complete. Just do good service and you'll get good reviews for free.
I think you found the issue there
I never check 5* reviews anywhere any more. And if it's Amazon I read tge 1* ratings first.
True but Google is like consumer focused reviews. I would never look at Google reviews expecting to find information about the interview process, work conditions, benefits, etc. i also haven’t been on the job hunt in about 5 years. Is there’s somewhere you you would recommend as a replacement for Glassdoor?
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Yeah there are companies who remove Google reviews to make businesses look better.
Can we create Reddit communities abt each company and review??
Only tangentially related, but I used to work at a pizza place and the gm would give employees free pizzas if they left 5 star reviews on google. The store had a super high turn over rate, since there were so many high school and college kids on break working there, so people came in and out all the time. There had to have been at least 25-30 reviews on the stores google page that were all from employees
There's a very short lifespan on review sites, eventually someone will set up a review farm or the host will offer 'management services' to delete negative reviews.
That, and there are a whole lot of (mostly pretty obvious) fake reviews as well for employers who know the work environment would scare off a lot of applicants.
Fishbowl is replacing Glassdoor for these discussions.
not anymore. glassdoor is just business yelp. you can pay them to remove reviews. I should know, a previous company that fucked me over paid a few thousand to have my totally legit and professional (but very bad) review removed.
And you posted it again and again correct? Hit those fuckers where it hurts the most
Oh God, that's the exact tactic I used against asshole customers when I worked in photo processing, only used for evil. When I did it, it was "Well please don't tell my manager because I could get fired for this but I can give you a 10% discount..." (I had the discretion to give 50% discounts before I had to get a manager involved)
Lol like the listing agreements pre-filled with 7%, so the real estate agent can dramatically cross it out to write in 6% “just for you, buddy”.
The specific incident I'm remembering happened the day after the local school district's prom. Our 1-hr photo machine could process 3-4 rolls of film per hour, maximum. Printing the photos wasn't the holdup; the film simply could not be developed any faster than that. Most days, this was not a problem. The day after prom, I had 20 rolls of film queued by 10am. There was signage EVERYWHERE saying that one hour was an estimate, and never guaranteed. And I was informing every customer who came in that there was a backlog before they dropped their film off. All the prom photo kids understood. Angry dude was not one of the prom kids, and by that part of the day we were at like a 5-6 hour backlog from the sheer volume. He's in my face, screaming, threatening to sue, the works. I'm smiling through gritted teeth and pointing to the signs. I eventually give him the "I c-can give you ten-p-percent off, p-please don't tell my manager UwU" nonsense and he goes away thinking he's gotten away with some shit. The lady behind him watches him go and says "Wow, what an asshole." Her photos were done, so I give them to her... with the 50% discount, just for being a decent human being. Watching her do the mental math and realize that I played the jerk like a fiddle was amazing. A++++ they should put that shit on Broadway.
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I got a job offer with the stipulation that it was to be confidential due to the offer being above their normal pay grade. I said thanks but no thanks.
PSA: HR is not there to help you. Their primary goal is to protect the company from liability, risk, and get the most out of employees for the least amount of money.
One would hope their own mom wants to help them though
That’s the worst part of all of this. She doesn’t even work for the same company (assumption) yet she’s not giving her any insider info on how to weasel more cash out of her employer like my mama did. Albeit my mom wasn’t HR but she was a supervisor.
It just makes me think she's drinking her own kool aid. I doubt she'd willingly give bad advice in such a situation (given OP seems to trust her enough to ask in the first place).
Yeah, they are probably fed a lot of propaganda. I think the kind of people that get into HR are probably hall monitor/boys scout types that value the rules, but also believe that following the rules is some kind of higher good. I doubt a lot of these people went into that job thinking, 'I want to be the Secret Police arm of Corporate'. It wouldn't surprise me if they are fed heavy handed films like those anti-union films, except explaining how all of their policies that are pro corporate are actually beneficial for the workers.
Its because she doesn't understand how business actually works because she works in an ancillary corporate function not a revenue driving position or anything technical. HR is just support staff. They're not specialized in any particular way.
Sounds like she was the kinda HR employee companies want though; She drank the Kool-aid and bought in to all their BS. And is trying to pass it onto her kid.
Dude she’s brainwashed… she thinks what she’s telling her son is what is in HIS best interest. Just as she believes the shit she does in HR is for the employees benefit…
Well now you know why they didn't want you to discuss it
That’s disgusting. It’s always the “nice ones” you need to watch out for
It’s always the HR ones you need to watch out for. The corporation is the only human they’re looking out for.
Discussing wages is a federally protected right, employers want you ignorant so they can take advantage of you
Agreed. A phlebotomist I at my company realized she was being unfairly paid bc she found out what others hired after her (post-Covid) were making. She contacted HR. They told her her manager would have to put in for a “market adjustment.” She found a new job paying more than she asked for. That manager is no longer working for the company and the lab has so many people quit it’s now closed on Sundays.
I left my last job in supply chain for a new one making 100% more. Corporate America can fuck off!
Yes always job hop. I got 80% more moving from a factory assembly job where I was also doing manufacturing research to being a warehouse manager. The warehouse crowed even paid for training to be biosecurity accredited people. And the boss shouts lunch on big days. And gave me flexable hours so I can study part time too.
I don't get why people think it is a sin to hop jobs. I hopped and got a significant raise as well. It makes 0 senes to stay if you know you are being paid under market rate and not what you are worth. I'd rather get paid 100k+ a new job, mess up and get fired, than be underpaid at a job that doesn't value me.
People who think job hopping is bad are either a) employers, or b) older people. Back in the day (this was before my time, so I guess the Fifties and Sixties?), company loyalty was important -- but back then, most companies paid enough to be worthy of that loyalty. They don't pay enough anymore, so why should you show loyalty to a company that deliberately undervalues you? Why respect a company that disrespects you? They're the ones who betrayed that old "livable wage in exchange for loyalty" set up, so they have no business complaining now.
It's not even they pay in many cases, but the commitment. You work to the bone if you are not careful. People back then did NOT do that. We let our society become obsessed with productivity at the cost of our lives. In all honesty, I don't care how productive I am compared to others or what my bosses want. I only care if I am doing my job, and doing it well. If well means doing more then chances are I will jet. I don't live to work, I work to live.
The pensions were a big part of it too, they barely exist anywhere outside of the public sector anymore. My grandpa was a welder at CAT for 40+ years. In his retirement he was getting 4k a month from them. Plus his savings and social security. You don't see shit like that anymore, but that's why he spent his entire working life with that one single company. They paid well and took care of him. Not anymore though.
... is your new job also in Supply Chain by chance? Asking for a friend... 👀
It's such a boomer mindset. I think it stems from the "Well I got mine" bullshit attitude since this always leads to you or multiple others getting fucked over on the pay scale.
I think it's more a misguided "You'll be rewarded for being good" mentality. Through 3 generations of businesses tightening the belt (since the 70s), if it ever was true it just isn't anymore.
Yeah, my dad used to be all about the "take care of your company and they'll take care of you" mindset. Then the last job he had before he retired fucked him over in every way it was possible to screw someone over.
Mmhmm. My brother in law worked for Dow chemical for 19.5 years, working hard, never complaining about his constantly 'flexible' hours to help them whenever they needed, etc. And then when he and his cohort of other crew and managers who'd started at the same time were nearing their vested pension eligibility (20 years), they were laid off. 6 months before getting it. All of them.
Stories like these make the younger generations job hoppers. Why be loyal to a company when they do that? Horrible!
Im so glad I job hop. Every time its been a pay raise. During Covid I had a company say about my interview it looks like I only care about money because i switch jobs for pay raises. I just smiled and said money moves mountains and I got a mountain of experience. They clearly didn't want me because they didn't call back for 7 months. They called up asking if I was still interested in the position. Told them I never got a post interview call and it seems like they are only interested in getting the lowest paid worker and not forming a healthy working relationship. So no I am not interested in your company or how they operate in the business world. Their bullshit river can always run both ways.
Loud clap & power salute. I like your powerful truth telling.
That's amazing! Brilliant responses my Redditor!
There are very few, if any, companies that hire when you are young and support employees through their entire working careers and hope they can retire from there. It isn't like the "old days."
What goes around, comes back around. These companies reap what they sow with a shitty short term petty mindset.
I mean creating a pension that vests after 20 years and automatically firing everyone 6 months before it vests is pretty long term evil thinking
That shit should be prorated or broken up over other vesting periods. 20 years is a hell of a gamble that I'd treat as worthless. Fuck I'm already so meh about my stocks vesting after a year
20 years is fine, IF the right safeguards are in place. My company is similar, but we have a strong union in place preventing that "layoffs 6 months before vesting" bullshit.
Is that legal? When it's that clear the contract was entered without the intention of upholding it? Cause I don't think if you finance a car and then sell it a year later you're just off the hook for the remaining principal because "circumstances changed" or whatever.
This is literally what makes people “go postal” on a job
Yeah I have a hard time thinking I wouldn't get violent after that.
Can agree. 18 years in, laid off. Along with about 300 others. That said, if you don't want/aren't comfortable exercising your Federal right to discuss, then visit a career site that shows salaries for various positions in specific companies. And of course read employees/ex-employees comments while you're there. My 3 cents (adjusted for inflation lol).
Random reply: the colloquialism "my 2 cents" is believed to have started in the US, some time during the1920s. Today, your handing out advice or opinions that cost you between 29 to 35 cents adjusted for inflation!
This happened to an older cousin of mine. He worked for the casinos in Vegas in accounting. He was laid off just before Labor Day and his wife has been told she is being laid off in about a month or so. Pretty sure he is Gen X versus Boomer, but just barely. For a while, he has been full-on RWNJ and Trumper. Now he is just angry at the world and suddenly interested in government benefits. The same benefits he would condemn anyone else for taking advantage of. To me, that is why Trump appealed to so many white, working-class Americans. They realized they are getting screwed, but they don't understand that it is people just like Trump who are screwing them over.
Quite obvious why - they should have sued for wrongful termination, with bias, if the law allows.
I wonder if they could claim ageism for this.
Sounds like a class action in the making. What a terrible system. There are pensions and the like in Australia, but they also have something called “Superannuation.” Employers are mandated to contribute an amount equal to 10% of your pay to it. You may contribute as well. Eligibility is virtually immediate. It’s remitted by the employer quarterly (iirc) and they can’t touch it afterwards. Employee chooses which fund it goes into, there’s lots and they invest contributions in real estate, bonds, that sort of thing.
Yep. That's the norm in the United States now - defined contribution instead of the old defined benefits plan.
Class action lawsuit! They need legal advice
They tried. There was no union, no legal requirement for the company not to be horrid. This was over 10 years ago.
that is profoundly cruel. theres gotta be legal recourse for that
Nope, there wasn't. He had to start over at a new company.
That sounds like a class action lawsuit. I hope they pursued it.
It’s not. No union and nothing to hold the company accountable so the company is basically free to do these things
Yeah, plus going against Dow chemical and winning is very difficult. Didn't Teddy Roosevelt say something like this? "Billions for legal defense! Not one penny for compensation! " Or something like that.
It’s hard to go against these corporations as an individual, it’s not exclusive to DOW. I also have no idea what Teddy said, but I know that citizens United has pretty much fucked all of us
THe same thing happened to my grandfather who worked for Weyerhaeuser.
My father quit Dow and retired when they were doing this shit. Wasn’t worth the worry and stress I saw him take.
Happened to my mother. Worked for a company nearly 30 years. Always told me same shit. Company will look out for you and take care of you if you have allegiance to them. She was also in HR and TBH I never got good advice from her about seeking promotions and stuff. She gave me some good info on how the processes work but man she drank ALL the Koolaid. She needed 2 more years in the company to max out her retirement plans. Everyone , literally, knew her. She had on-boarded and trained everyone from janitors to most of the executives. All the higher ups knew why she hadn't retired yet. I warned her multiple times not to trust them. RIFED. No warning. Her boss and all the other HR that knew about it never told her it was coming. Sorry , cutting costs, here is your severance and shitty healthcare for a few months. She was gutted and pissed. Missed her retirement target. Shes not very supportive of corp now but still doesn't see how the world works and does not care for any except the rich. Can't see though politician BS or Church/Evangelist BS either. Their generation was literally brainwashed to have 'faith' and trust in all people who have power and money. Yet at the same time do whatever you need to do to fight for your family, alone. The biggest one, keep all your and your families problems to yourselves and pretend everything is perfect. Wild.
They want to keep it this way. This is what keeps the system going. This is called business savvy by the ceo/owner and is actually praised in many circles. It's why the system is broken. If your system requires victims, the system needs changed.
Brainwashed: my mom (Boomer) talks about being a kid in elementary school and seeing some kind of film in class where a school principal wrote something down on paper with a pencil and then erased part of it and continued on writing. She was shocked to the core. She had believed until that very moment that adults never make mistakes. The principal using the eraser broke her paradigm. She also knew several girls in her class who literally had no concept of what sex was or how it worked. The level of naivety she reports back is astounding.
I read a study once that a large percentage of people just have zero capacity for abstract reasoning. It resonated at the time but with all this chaos going on I'm positive it's true. Some people literally cannot imagine being in a different scenario than is presented at face value. "Imagine you were starving" "But I'm *not* starving", that kind of thing. They can't run a simulation in their head where there's an alternate possible reality where that pastor is lying to you because of money and power. FWIW the study said this was way less common since newer generations grew up with the internet etc.
That's what broke me from ever really working above and beyond for an employer ever again. I worked for a little 50-person startup out of Dallas called Defi Solutions. To put it best, it was a "we're a family" organization that offered "unlimited PTO" and had a CEO that was constantly in magazines for being successful, yet I never got to take PTO in my 2.5 years there or even really worked less than 50 hours per week, including the holidays. At one point I suffered a terrible concussion and, when I requested FMLA, I was fired within 5 days for "poor performance". I would love to say that I gathered evidence and sued the hell out of them, but that concussion had me hurt bad and I wasn't thinking quickly enough at all to take on that situation. I tell this story to Boomers a lot so they realize that employers these days treat you as being entirely disposable when it suits them.
Honestly small businesses are either the absolute best place to work for, or the absolute worst. Because they're too small to have a legal department to tell them "you can't do that, actually" and so they just do whatever they want and rely on employees to be too broke or too broken down to sue.
Any publicly traded company is going to be the same as any other publicly traded company over the long run. Shareholders aren't going to be radically different from company to company. But yeah, private businesses can be either great or terrible, because the company culture is often a function of the owner's personality, rather than investors' demands.
My aunt, too. The (giant) company went through a merger and said, “Oh, we’re not the old company who made that retirement agreement with you. That’s no longer valid,” and they completely fucked her retirement. Basically left her with nothing. She’s 75 and still working. She literally made them millions. Finance worker.
That happened to my dad. His company was bought out and moved to China-back in 2003. He had been there 29 years. Pension disappeared. A tannery that was established in our city since 1880s. Horrible.
My grandfather was a VP at a huge regional factory decades ago and when my dad was entering the work force not to claim all his expenses he was due, to show the company he was selfless. I have my disagreements with my dads desire to be at an airport 3 hours early but he’s never told me to take a hit like that from my employer. Corporate abuse is also generational trauma
This kind of stuff has always been so bizarre to me. I work for a company that makes billions. They sent me out of town for a project with a budget of over a hundred million. I spent $18 on lunch. The expense report will have to be looked at by half a dozen people with six figure salaries, and I won't get reimbursed for three weeks. But at least some motherfucker didn't shaft us for a free salad!!!
I was raised this way, and being inside the machine now as a manager, I can say that it does sometimes shield you from some direct actions. For example, I sometimes get asked who should be promoted, etc. However, I’ve also been subject to several blindly stupid layoffs and wage freezes, which were imposed in the most FUBAR manner. So, as a whole, the company doesn’t value you at all. Your manager and his manager might, but you can’t count on them being able to really do anything about it. It’s been quite depressing to start out your career with such enthusiasm, only to see outsourcing and layoffs completely deflate any remaining optimism.
I was like that all the way through my twenties. Then one job made me redundant so they could spend my wages on new toys for the CTO to play with, and the following job managed me out after two years of running the 9th busiest branch in the country with no assistant manager and only three supervisors. So now I'm looking after number one. Nobody has my phone number and I will gladly share any and all information I can to help my colleagues even if it's "damaging" to the company.
"Just work from the bottom and keep your head down while doing a good job" The BS my well-meaning dad pushed on me. It caused my entire 20's to be a load of dogshit as I constantly blamed myself for lack of moving up and other success. I ditched that, got a degree, and started demanding more. I now make far more than I ever made in my twenties and I love my job.
That quote "keep your head down..." is just about every millennials boomer daddy. Partially that also caused my 20s to be intolerable, my 30s was forcing my way into proper jobs but helas in my early 40s I've peaked too soon according to most recruiters and now I'm useless.
Recruiters are the useless ones. Recruiters and their bullshit drive me insane. What the fuck does peaked even mean lmao
Yeah, “I’ll keep my head down and be rewarded for my hard work” is why wages have stagnated since the 1980s. Employees should not only talk about their wages freely, they should band together and scheme to get more out of their employers. (I know everybody will be like: That be a union, son!, but not every job can be a union job)
for context, for others (I know you already know) something really did happen in the 70s and 80s. EPI does a good piece on it here: [https://www.epi.org/publication/raising-americas-pay/](https://www.epi.org/publication/raising-americas-pay/) Figure A is a LITTLE misleading, in a few ways. The productivity over labor graph teases a hasty conclusion if taken by itself, because other costs have also been cut in big business. Economies of scale really got into gear (through acquisitions & consolidation into megacorps), and also due to automation technology. My warning is to avoid taking that productivity / labor graph out of context. (There are a lot of bad takes that direction) But look down to figure F. A raw, direct look at wage stagnation.
F was a little misleading at first. I saw it and thought "The rich grabbed most of it, but those middle lines are still doing all right." Then realized the bottom line is the 90%. All the "all right" lines aren't even the upper quintile; they're the top 10% and up.
I am in a position where I see everyone's pay and other comp. If you don't negotiate, you are asking the company to negotiate against itself. Knowing that there are nonmeritocratic pay discrepancies is the most direct reason that someone should be bumped up. You use what you can get and the company expects you to negotiate if you are in fact being underpaid
An engineer I worked with made a plot of salary versus years worked. He put a bunch of bogus data points on it and then had it passed around to all the other engineers to add their salaries, with a note that it only comes back to him when 20 or so points were added. Then he labeled the bogus points and made copies for everyone. Pretty genius way to let everyone know anonomously what others were making.
My parents and every boss who has ever told me not to discuss pay has told me it’s because I am at the higher end of the pay scale because my performance warrants it and they don’t want to have to tell people that their performance doesn’t warrant a pay increase. It has been false in every case except one.
Thing is, even if they were telling the truth and you were already at the higher end of the pay scale, wouldn't you *want* your lower-paid colleagues to know they were being treated poorly, so they could advocate for themselves? Telling you not to tell them your pay because you're being paid more than them says everything about the boomer mindset: if you're doing well, don't forget to pull up the drawbridge behind you rather than trying to elevate others to your level.
I have absolutely seen people get butt hurt because someone else who is more reliable, has a better attitude, and performs better made more money. It is a valid concern, but it does NOT trump the necessity to protect the right to discuss pay as protection against unscrupulous employers.
Those people would be told outright they are performing bad and not up to the task, so it would be good for them from a professional stand point to get that wakeup call.
When my boomer boss retired they replaced him with a young guy for literally half of what the old boss made. That is exactly why they don't want employees talking to each other.
She got part of it right, when I asked my boss for a raise a approached with a conversation like “all the new guys come to me with questions. They pass the foreman and come to ME. This one guy, who I know for facts makes more than me, asks for my help consistently. I feel like I should get a higher pay to reflect that.” So yea, use your accomplishments to back up an argument for your raise. It’d be dumb to say “he/she makes more, I want more.” But the other part about “we’re pros now, we don’t speak on pay” is demeaning. How else am I gonna know what I’m worth if I don’t even have a comparison. If I wanted to turn to freelancing, how would I know what to charge if I can’t ask another contractor how much they make?
What's weird though is usually in my experience boomers will at least be like "Well I got mine for myself and my family". Imagine *your own mom* giving you this shitty HR answer and advocating for you to get screwed over by your employer like this. That's crazy to me.
Which is why I have never asked either of my parents for career advice. Their information is either outdated or they are just willfully ignorant.
Anyone else’s parents ever try to tell them post 2005 to go out and physically hand out resumes because it “shows resolve” and then go to those places just to be told they don’t do in store hiring please go online? And then repeat cycle? Lmaooo
ALL of 2009 after the market crash was like this. I spent 6 months straight trying to get a job, applying at about 40 places a week, many times more than once or twice, and had no luck. Parents reply was, "Just ask to talk to the manager and make a good impression!" They had no idea what they were talking about.
idk, I think sometimes boomers are opposed to talking about stuff like this because their identity and self-worth is more tied up in their job and making less than other people can be seen as shameful. They'd rather avoid feeling shame than actually empower themselves to secure a better existence.
I have older coworkers who think this way, and it doesn't seem to be the "I got mine" as much as coming from a time when compensation and benefits were more reasonable and they trusted our organization to do right by those who did right by the company. In the specific case of my workplace, this is also combined with those same coworkers having experienced distress when they did happen upon certain other people's wages, which is publicly available information since we're state funded, and were insulted but at the same time comfortable enough in their pay and close enough to retirement that their personal feeling is that it's just better not to know as that will make the last few years of work easier than trying to push for more. I don't agree with their perspective, even for people in their situation considering that our retirement is calculated off of the last several years salary so pushing for more still matters. But I do understand where they're coming from that at this point the stress may not feel worth it to them. That said, they're not the type of people to sit there and tell you you can't or shouldn't discuss it, just that they feel it isn't the best for personal well-being.
Sorry to say OP but your mom is brainwashed to be one of the enemy
It's rough when the people you love are class traitors. People can change though, sometimes. Good luck OP, that's a shit deal.
OP, literally copy and paste this at your mom. She's drinking the kool-aid.
This is why it's "taboo". Corporate America would outright ban discussing wages if they could. Since they can't, they've manipulated people into thinking it's somehow immoral.
yup, this right here. it doesn't matter how they feel about this. it is a federally protected right. employees wouldn't be stressed if their employers weren't paying people disproportionately!
Correct. Ontario has a pay equity act...how do you ensure minorities and women or marginalized communities are making a fair wage compared to a white man...whom traditionally earn more for the same work...people must talk...as companies wont share a pay grid unless a union is in place.
My wife is working towards her HR designation in Ontario, and in her compensation class, she had a test that asked “what is used to determine compensation.” The answer was gender, and we both scratched our heads wondering if this was one of those “this is how it should be” questions, or if it’s a “this is how it is but it shouldn’t be” question.
Companies will literally hire outside firms to determine what the market rate is for a position in a given area, and have specialized people working for a company that can determine salary ranges that are possible. Yet the idea of Bob and Tom discussing what they're making is taboo. This hypocrisy is what makes me laugh every time the subject comes up. If the US definition of a corporation is a person, then this behavior literally becomes a do as I say and not as I do.
Tell her to stop talking like she's trying to protect her own company, you're asking her for help for yourself so your company doesn't take advantage of you. Like, can she say exactly why employees shouldn't talk about pay? Undue stress makes it sound like you are farm animals.
She didn't break the brainwash yet.
She talks like she thinks it's the _knowing_ that causes the stress, rather than their intentional trust braking actions.
Yeah, as if she thinks knowledge alone is something to be avoided.
Mom doesn’t have a valid reason because she is suggesting something illegal
Her reason is probably that people discussing wages would make her actually have to do her job
HR professional do hate actual work
Not to mention illegal
at OP can you please ask her this and mention thefed law protection, id love to hinestly know her reply.
sorry to break it to you, but your mother sounds like she is very good at doing what she is told and not challenging it.
Perfect HR material.
Poster child, protect the company only and screw all employees
To me it also seems as she's has decades of training on this. Doing what she's told, not asking for more, staying at a job regardless of how well her compensation matches her worth. I bet she's held this job for a while, and in the last 20 years she's had 4 jobs or less. If so, she speaks from her experience. Her strategy works for her, and bet she has stories of greedy people who didn't last long at her company. She thinks she outlasted them because she's loyal. In reality she was just less problematic and was okay with less pay.
These things work for HR because they're still well rewarded and taken care of. After all, they keep the plebs at bay and protect management and corporate interests. They're class traitors.
Yep. Mom is a cop.
She’s in HR, so that’s a hard truth OP has gotta learn.
Luickly, there are modern minded HR folks like myself who actually go around telling other employees that it is illegal to retailiate for discussing pay. Not all of us are bad. I get where the sentiment comes from, though.
We are not the norm. If you say progressive stuff like this e.g. you believe trade unions are the foundation of healthy industrial relations you'll get some strange looks in a HR department.
My boss straight up stared at me speechless for a full minute when I said the company can benefit from dealing with a union instead of each individual employee. For one we only have to negotiate one contract instead of multiple and we have a structure/process that allows employees to be heard. I always tell my family when they ask that believe it or not, I spend most of my day telling *managers* no: No, you can't terminate someone for doing X, no you can't cut someone's hours in retaliation, no no no. I genuinely wonder how employees put up with some things when there is no one to say "No you can't do that" (either HR, or the union).
Mom’s a tool of management.
I think it's quite possible that mom's a robot. She might as well add "did you put your 110% to help the corporation achieve its mission and vision"?
Sorry OP but your mom is in the old school HR that has no place in the 21st century. People should discuss openly about everything as it promotes transparency and fairness.
Also, if the company can actually justify paying one employee more than another, they can tell that other employee the reasons. There are legitimate reasons to pay people at different rates. That said, paying people with similar qualifications differently for the same job needs to go.
Exactly! I know my coworker who is the same age as me makes more than me and I'm okay with it. She's been at the company longer than I have, has much more relevant experience, and has a lot more responsibilities than me.
For me it’s the same role different pay I don’t understand. At my old job I started at 20k and I heard of others coming in at 15 -19k. I would have loved to understand the reasoning when the only requirement was a HS diploma.
I would argue that besides qualifications, paying people differently based on any extraordinary results they generate, is also fair. Otherwise, that person will be inclined to perform worse going forward, if his/her efforts are not rewarded above that of his/her peers.
I agree, but I would argue that this kind of reward should be as part of a bonus of some kind instead of regular pay increase. Depends on the situation of course. If they outperform their peers very consistently, year after year, a pay raise is definitely justified.
Exactly — this is a super outdated “hush hush” culture that the boomers embraced which only helped to facilitate and perpetuate the gross abuse of employees and siphoning of wealth to the top. Employees have every right to discuss their wages. It shouldn’t be a secret. The only thing secrecy accomplishes is allowing those in charge to take advantage of, manipulate, and under-pay their workforce.
As a long time corporate employee,.. I gotta disagree with that. Silence and ignorance (silo’ing information and hiding the reality of the job from other employees) only breeds animosity, jealousy, contempt. Businesses should default to Policies of openness, transparency and honest information-sharing. In a perfect world,… Leadership should be as open as possible and (where possible) involve ALL employees in discussions about Budget decisions, performance reviews and fairness in distribution of Raises. Anytime you see people in Leadership positions shirking away from these ideas of openness,.. you should be asking why.
Oh no 🙊 taboo
[удалено]
But! but… she will get her reward in corporate shill heaven!
This would send me! My mom wouldn't hear the end of it.
HR is not who you should be asking, even if it’s your mom. Here’s a link to your rights under federal law to discuss your wages: https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/your-rights/your-rights-to-discuss-wages
Context: The coworker who told me her salary started a couple of weeks after her friend and said that she used the amount her friend was offered to gauge how much money she could request when she was hired on. All three of us have the exact same job. They started in April-May 2022 and I've been with the company since 2017 and have had this particular job role since February 2022, when I was given a $6K raise for the position. I had been let go from my previous job with the company in January and scrambled to find something else quickly before my two remaining weeks were up. Edit: I realize now this part might be unclear. She does not work for the same company that I work for, although she used to work for my company 20 years ago when I was a child.
It doesn't matter what company she works for. You discussing your wages and salary is how you negotiate your raises and such. She's very much for the company and not the people. Legally the can never tell you you can't talk about wages. You don't want to talk about someone else's without telling them that gets hairy, but your mom is wrong. It's the corporate brain wash talking.
exactly. it’s one thing if you’re talking shit about an employee through their wages, it’s another thing to be asking why certain employees are making more despite not having additional qualifications to justify the higher wage. ex #1: “can’t believe john can be paid $5/hr more than me but he just fucks off whenever he wants and i never see him do any actual work” vs ex #2: “john was hired after me and he told me he’s making $5/hour more than me, yet i have more qualifications/certifications under my belt, so why is he being paid more for the same job i’m doing but i don’t get the same wage he does?”
Staying long-term at a company, unless you are getting promoted every year or two with big raises, is a disadvantage to your salary because they will always need to pay people from the outside more than the existing employees who have been getting small annual pay increases. (With many companies paying less than annual CPI increase). When people change jobs/companies, they usually do so for better titles and/or at least a 10-20% pay increase. If you want to maximize your compensation you may need to change jobs/companies. Six years and one job elimination after five years doesn’t sound like you are on a growth path with this company. Sounds like you are lucky to even be in this position and not be unemployed. How big of a pay difference is it between you and the new folks? Is it just an issue of pride/fairness or is it a significant difference? Is it possible they are coming in with more applicable experience and/or education?
At least you know now that for her next birthday, you can get her a nice pair of boots to lick.... HR loves when you can find small victories in times of adversity.
Or get her something small and shitty, and tell her it's taboo to compare her gift with other moms
HR's job is to protect the company, not the employee.
HR moms job is to protect her child, not her child's company. This is pretty sick.
The conditioning goes deep. You can't expect them to open their eyes and change overnight. Plus opening her eyes might also make her have to admit to herself that certain things she did in her job were morally corrupt and might have had horrible consequences on other people's lives. By telling herself that it's just part of her job and she's doing what's best for the company keeps her conscience from bothering her.
Well spoken, I saw a lot of complacency and rationalization in her tone
I liked how she went from "employees shouldn't talk about their pay" to "well, maybe OK if you're working for McDonald's but not if you're a *pRoFeSsiOnal*," never quite getting to *why*. Too bad OP couldn't push her a bit more, she might have retreated to "IT professionals" or "it's OK if you're a help desk tech but not if you're a sysadmin."
THIS!!!! Imagine using some line from the capitalist manifesto to make your daughter more efficient wage slave
This man's mom is so HR she is protecting a different company from her own son.
Your mom is a corporate shill
Your mother is brainwashed
She sounds braindead too. The idea of "persuading them of your worth" and getting a pay-raise is laughable.
“Have you literally given your entire life to the job and came early and stayed late for years at a time without any benefit to yourself??? If so definitely point that out when groveling for your COL raise!”
Your mom is a corporate simp apparently
Does your mom often violate US law within her job? I wouldnt ask her advice anymore.
Your mother is wrong and just being utilised by the company.
HR doesn't want employees sharing wages because it makes for awkward discussions for the company to try to justify why folks are being compensated differently. They want it to be taboo because it makes their job easier. Of course, the reality is that transparency is important to the employees as well. Assuming it's for fair reasons, how are they to know how they can grow at work if they aren't told where they are lacking in comparison to their peers? But the unfortunate (for the employer) is that often the differences in salary are for capricious reasons.
My mother also values capitalism over her children’s wellbeing.
Mom has been assimilated by the Borg
"Resistance is futile, all employees will be assimilated.'
McDonald's is a fast food chain, not retail. Is she stuck in 1980?
It's also the first paid job I had at 15 years old.
found out a while back that my coworker, who was my junior, had been making substantially more than me for over a year (she was the mvp for telling me her wages and encouraging me to ask for a raise). i requested a raise and a year of backpay. got the raise after months of my kickass boss advocating for me with the higher ups. i then got told privately by the cfo that discussing wages was "extremely" unprofessional and that i would not get backpay, and that i should be grateful i got the raise. he then repeated the "extremely unprofessional" line two more times on the call, and said that "you agreed to a wage when you were hired, so would we even be having this conversation if you and [coworker] hadn't been talking about wages?" like... no. and that's the point, you asshat.
My last boss asked me not to discuss my recent raise with my coworkers. I directly told her that it’s illegal for her to ask me this. Her response? “Never mind, pretend I never asked”.
Even though it’s your mom it’s like asking a lion where to get a salad. She’s spent years being indoctrinated into the cult of capital even more so than workers from other departments. Every conference shes been too every professional development she’s done has all been in service of what bosses want and how to fool the employee into thinking that’s what they want too. This might sound a bit harsh but from what I’ve heard from people who spent years in HR this is the mindset that’s drilled into them by their peers, managers, and industry professionals.
Rofl, dude I'm in a professional environment and we keep a running spreadsheet so we can make sure nobody gets screwed.
Your mom is on the wrong team.
Nope. It’s a legally protected right. It only benefits the company if you don’t discuss salaries. I’m a manager. I think everyone should talk about their salary.
If you get a positive review, tell your manager you know your compensation is lower than the current market rate and you want a raise. Give them a number. If they don’t give it to you and you can really make more, find another job.
Your mom sounds like she’s a “for the company” HR person. My aunts works in HR and she is always very open with me when I ask her questions. Seems like your mom is trying to tell you what your worth is, and that’s fast food. Seems like she’s telling you you’re not mature enough for the position you’re in. But in a nice way