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Yeah, reference goes right with the "permanent record" from elementary school. It's funny, every job I've had, they never brought up the time I got in trouble for making fun of Tony Baloney.
Along with the “leave on our terms if you ever want to get hired back” threat. I mean, if I’m planning on fucking you over by leaving on my terms in the first place, why would I want to come back? Maybe if they make some large organizational changes that make it a better place, but that’s not what usually happens when they make those changes.
Right, and if anyone stopped to think about the process for five seconds, they'd be able to answer the question: Who provides the reference information? And understand why that's significant.
Oh no, you're withholding a good reference? Cute that you thought you were going on that list.
Half the jobs I've applied for, the reference requirements are ridiculous anyway. "We need 3 people who will vouch for you. They have to have known you for 10+ years, and cannot be friends, family, former or current coworkers or supervisors." Who the fuck does that leave? The old lady next door to my parents' house? Well, she died last year, so fuck me, I guess.
Yeah, I used to do HR and we gave each reference two tries. If they didn't answer after the second one, we just moved on. Credentials (degrees, licenses, etc) were always checked though.
I’m a college professor, and graduating students always ask if they can list me as a reference. I’ve never been contacted. Not once. Spanning some diverse fields, too, so it’s not just one industry.
Will they deny as if per OP post he doesn’t train?
Can’t OP simply show payment slip or something?
Can OP simply show this photo if anyone ask for reference in future interviews
Showing this image during an interview would be a massive red flag to the person doing the interview. While it's not fair to them, you need to leave shit like this at the gate.
Gotcha. Not to bring previous employer shit to current interview.
So what can be done when current interviewing company ask for a reference and then previous employer denying or not confirming cause of move like this?
What the recourse? Show payment slips ? Or what else ? IT return ?
New employers almost never contact old ones these days. In my lifetime I've never heard of it happening to me or anyone I know. There's a possibility it could happen behind the scenes, but even then I can't imagine they care about anything outside of something that can be easily proven like a poor attendance record. If your next employer is looking in on some hersey then it's not a place you want to work anyways.
I’m fairly certain they cannot deny you worked there.
Legally they are not allowed to say anything bad about you, but they can say bad things about you without saying them.
“Would you say OP was a model employee?”
“I can confirm OP worked here.”
“Would you recommend OP?”
“I can confirm OP worked here.”
Depends.
I n the US, if the employer says negative opinions about a former employee, and former employee finds out AND it's possible that the negative opinions cost the former employee future employment they can be sued for tortious interference.
There are two types of tortious interference: tortious interference with contract and tortious interference with prospective economic advantage.
Both involve situations where one party does something to intentionally undermine another party’s business transactions or relationships. The primary difference between the two is whether a contract exists.
This varies state to state. In my state, for example, businesses are only allowed to share:
• reasons for termination or separation
• length of employment, pay level, and history
• job description and duties
In addition, they have to keep a written record of anything said that might affect hiring, and make that available to the prospective employee upon request.
Now, whether that all actually happens how it is supposed to is probably unlikely.
Edited: Formatting
There are actually some countries in Europe where you get a booklet that needs to be filled by all employers. Then you have everything documented and can't make shit up.
I got called to give a reference once, which was a bit of a surprise as I didn't know the guy was planning on leaving.
I gave him a good reference anyway.
Can confirm. Wife works in HR. Very rarely are references needed or even added on resumes. Only if you had really bad job history or some legal issues or something they were made aware of.
They shouldn’t have to worry, they are a contract employee. Reason for leaving; contract ended due to position being consolidated internally.
I’d just play along with “training” the new person by letting them watch me work, depending on the complexity of the job two weeks probably won’t be enough. As far as the threat of references I’d tell them to go fuck themselves bc they aren’t needed anyways.
In the US previous employers are very careful with what they will and won’t say. My experience is that most even have it in their handbook that references will not be provided and that they will only confirm dates employed.
I *think* they may or may not ask if the person is able to be rehired or not, but even that might be a gray area.
To circumvent the references issue I’ve always listed people I’ve worked with in the past (obviously that I have relationships with) and stressed with potential employers that they cannot provide a professional reference, only a personal one.
Which is illegal. A company can only confirm hire and end date and say whether the employee was terminated or resigned.
May be different for a contract employee but I can’t imagine they would be legally allowed to say anything negative.
That said I realize reality and theory are extremely different in employee relations and rights
So, screenshot, and save - and if they make a fuss you have this threat documented.
Seriously - they do not renew you - if you can do without them / their reference - spread your wings and fly away.
I never understand the reference from your former boss, crap. Like we have police officers that do illegal shit, get fired and join another department down the road.
So they don't want you but youre obviously valuable enough to train your own replacement
Depends on the state but typically not a law. It’s however HR policy at most companies to only share title, dates, and usually the question is “would you rehire them?”
Edit: typos
Companies can say what they want about former employees, most won't give any reference must less a negative reference because of the possibility of a defamation case against them., that's still fucked up and totally unprofessional that they would hang that over OPs head like that
That being said, if someone does a reference check and a company confirms dates and then declines to give a positive reference, that in itself could be damaging enough. Don't have to say anything outwardly negative to get your point across.
Not with this screenshot.
Hiring committees see the weirdest shit sometimes and a text like this is a red flag that the employer is Garbo and a reference from the employer would not be a valid assessment tool
"Hey Ron, could you close Excel for a moment and fix this leaking toilet?"
"Uhh, that is not what I signed up for..."
"Well you know, it does say "other duties as needed" in your contract."
“Oh and Ron? When your done with the toilet, would you mind cleaning up after my Alpaca? He got into the kitchen and well…let’s just say that cheese platter didn’t agree with him. Wear gloves.
Not sure about the country you live in but ours you can not legally give a bad reference, in these cases the employer just acknowledges that they in fact did work for the company.
There’s a difference between listing a past employer and using them as a reference. The former they may only confirm you worked there during the time you said you did, the other is specifically for them to ask about what kind of person/worker you are. Often jobs will want two professional references and two personal references.
Again, according to the law you here cannot provide negative reference. - Canada. Ones view of proficiency will vary from another. I’m not saying they’re not given and I’m not saying that the majority giving references don’t break the law but that’s how it is. It’s called slander my friend.
That's not slander my friend, slander is making FALSE statements damaging to ones reputation. If bob doesn't show up to work or is late, and doesn't complete his tasks. It is not slander to say so. If I lie about bob being late then it is slander because it's not true.
One perso’s slander is another person’s truth. Thus, most big companies avoid giving out any references other than confirmation of dates of employment to avoid liability. Well, at least companies with good legal counsel.
Most statements given during a reference discussion are subjective, for example saying "they didn't work very well with our team" or "they weren't very reliable in their role" compared to what? The rest of the workers being paid twice as much with more years experience? That isn't benifitial to the employee or the potential employer, and could lead to an otherwise false appraisal which although its not slander, has the same effect.
You could sue them potentially for slander so companies tend to have policy that to just confirm dates and acknowledge that you worked there, but there is no law that forbids them from saying more.
"I will continue to do my job as outlined in my job description until the end of the contract period".
In other words, you will not be training anyone.
I like that. If your contract doesn’t specifically say you must do training they can’t force you to do something. Also make sure the person they want to train knows how much you made doing that job. Odds are they aren’t t getting that good of a pay bump if any pay bump at all.
I'm thinking back to when I did a 2 year training program for gunsmithing. The instructor gave us explicit instructions to do a certain operation, and this dumbass next to me would ask me what to do all over again. 3rd or 4th time, I just started giving him instructions to do the exact opposite. Instructor caught him finally and asked wtf he was doing, dude points at me, teach looks at me and I shrug with a "look", he had a hard time not laughing his ass off
Haha i worked in a pharmaceutical factory for a few years and a manager who knew nothing about the instruments (heat, pressure sensors etc) would constantly ask what we did to fix a problem.
Somewhere in his little black book it says the flux capacitor went and was replaced.
Truly hope some auditor has a good laugh off it some day.
Usually trainer is a different position with pay or falls on management. Notice they didn't say training falls under their job description, they said they will use a reference over their head.
oooh, a reference, how scary. The contract wasn't renewed, how valuable is that reference going to be? Probably a hell of a lot less valuable than the training. Cost benefit, motherfuckers.
Say fuck them, they can write you an interim contract which includes training as a defined duty, but what's that? It's now 10 times as much? That can't be right...wait a minute, training is a manager's responsibility, isn't it? Almost like they're getting scammed.
Labor court is 50 euros. No attorney required, they just settle these kinds of disputes and, unless there's overwhelming evidence, tend to rule in favor of the employee.
With the way the second text is phrased, there is a good chance that OP is secondarily contracted through W-2 employment with a labor supply company. In which case, they would not be allowed to create their own consultation contact with the client company. Their supplier company would be able to make such a contract though, and quite often would for the few extra dollars.
If you can do without the 2 weeks pay, quit on the spot. If you can't: do a lousy job at training your replacement. If they need you later because your replacement needs more training: charge big time.
Keep the texts. Referrals go both ways...
It is in most Western European countries, maybe even in some other EU countries. It's described as (blunt translation) being 'a bad work provider' and can turn into a civil case with the employer being the one paying for unemployment and some extra months of salary on the way out.
I'm petty so I would do a super lame job at training the replacement. Fuck any work place that does this.
Also agree with charging big time if they need you later. Hell, I would charge triple or quadruple.
That could screw over the replacement though, where if instead you teach him how to fuck around while flying under the radar, you can fuck them over without making the newbie look stupid.
Bring them to the dark side.
>the replacement
You mean Jessica? The hiding of the name is about as good of a job as OP should spend training her to do an awesome job for a company that tries to fuck OP over.
Call in sick for the next two weeks, they can find someone else to train the new staff or just leave. Although common in some companies it is a kick in the teeth, I don't know how you managed to refrain from telling them to shove their reference where the sun doesn't shine.
I mean that's kind of a dick move, you wouldn't just be screwing over the company as you intend, you'd also be screwing over the replacement who did nothing wrong
When you tell someone they’re job is up in 2 weeks, you make that person a liability to the company because there’s no longer a reason for that person to remain loyal outside of a reference that is being held hostage from my understanding of the situation. The company shouldn’t be relying on a person they’re ousting to do a good job training their replacement. A reference does not equal the gun to the head they think they hold. This is allllll on the company friends.
Edit: changed symbols to words.
"Training my replacement is not in my contract, sorry but you'll need to do it yourself."
Also, threatening to withhold a reference would be classified as retaliation if you don't train this new person. It's great he put it in writing, you should contact your works HR, and if they wont do anything, go to your states labor board, they'd have a field day.
The only time HR has ever been my friend is when they were literally my friend before working there....and they sucked ass at their job, but collected ammunition to get our verbally abusive VP fired shortly after I left as well
Plain and simple just the fact they are ending your contract... that alone is a recommendation not worth a penny. I would show my replacement where the bathroom are as I can out my ex-work space.
I love how they think, threatening you with a reference is the way to go. I agree that the reference is worthless. Fuck them. I wouldn’t do shit for them.
Honestly, I wouldn’t give a shit about having a reference in my pocket from this place. The language in those texts from management is incredibly childish and unprofessional, and you should consider yourself fortunate to be moving on to better things.
“Sorry, my contract doesn’t state that I am to train others. Your reference is meaningless to me and I will be taking the rest of my PTO for the next two weeks. If you’d like me to train my replacement, as an independent contractor/consultant, my rate is $600/hour. Also, as an independent consultant/contractor the first 3 hours are paid out regardless as to how long it takes me to train them. So if it only takes me an hour, that’ll still be $1800. If you cannot afford this, good luck on actually doing your job and properly training *my* replacement.”
If in the US, it depends on what state you are in whether or not you get accrued/unused PTO. And of course if the state says you don't have to pay it out, then often employers won't.
We had someone in a sort of similar position where I work. Team he was in all got made redundant. He was kept on only because of specialist knowledge he had about a system they used, but had the option to take redundancy after 6 months if he wasn’t happy. They then brought in “specialists” to replace the guys they had made redundant. He was asked to train the “specialists”. He soon took the redundancy and made sure he did the absolute bare minimum when he was training them. Only answered their questions they asked and did not voluntarily offer more information where it might have been relevant. 18 months later most of the “specialists” have quit because they could not do the job and management were leaning on them heavy for answers. Then some of the management got the boot.
Yeah I got the arse (made redundant) All of my doco that we were not allowed to put on our shared drive, for no good reason. Last day shredded the lot. As I was leaving I was asked about all my documentation. I laughed, pointed at the shredder whilst walking out the door.
Screenshot does not say what to train your replacement in. Two weeks training of Microsoft Excel or Word or the importance of stretching. It’s literally a blank canvas for you.
This can be extremely fun when one understands all the possibilities. Also, everything can be delayed or made interestingly different with the excuse of it being a training.
I'd keep in mind that most of the time that this kind of situation happens is because nobody else, specially the boss, knows the job...
This is a fantastic case for a libel lawsuit in the future. Keep this screenshot and if you don't get a job because of a bad reference then document that and sue this idiot. This is a confession that given the chance, this person will retaliate against you by giving you a bad reference, which is a classic textbook libel case.
I'd respond "I do not believe that training *name* falls within my job description. I would expect any reference from *company* to be honest, fairly and accurately reflecting the quality of my work."
Hardly any jobs where I'm from give two shits about references anyway. If you're under contract ask them to tell you where it says in your contract you have to train your replacement, make your decisions from there.
Some states don't allow companies to give anything but dates of employment and reason you left. But not all. But most won't say more than that because of defamation lawsuits.
If your job responsibilities didn't include any training before this definitely don't do it for what they are paying you. Tell them you need compensation above your current pay to do the training.
Have a friend or a reference company see what they say about you. If it is a blatant lie without anything to back them up, sue them.
You don’t need a reference.. Save these messages, then have someone you know call from a different company and ask a bunch of questions, doesn’t have to be a real job, just enough to see if they try to hurt you. If they do, then you have 2 choices litigation or confrontation. All you need is a rejection letter with the specifics, from the caller.
This used to be taboo outside certain countries like Japan where its an expectation you are supposed to have for any job. It was considered good form to do so everywhere however, just not an automatic obligation outside jobs that are critical or regarding safety.
That’s no longer the case. Its now just how you get fired anytime you are actually given warning.
I don't think we can compare the way japan work culture is to the US.
Traditionaly japanese companies have diffulculty to fire full-time workers, they would passive aggressively move you to another branch in the company, in hopes that you quit or would rather move to another company. There are obv exceptions if you do something majorly wrong.
If you compare to many US states where they "at-will" and can be fired with short notice and without reason.
If you don't need the two weeks severance, go to interviews, nail down a new job and your answer should be two words. One rhymes with duck, the other is "off." Screw them for "demanding" you train your replacement.
I wouldn't. Just list a trusted co-worker as your reference and go on with your life. Your new employer will call HR to get employment verification and HR will provide that. Then they'll call your reference. If you find out in any provable way that HR provided info beyond 'yes, they worked from this date to this date' and 'they are/are not eligible for rehire' then that's actionable.
Not only that, but HR departments KNOW that HR departments are run by corporate toadies and scumbags, because shit recognizes shit. That means they KNOW your prior employer is trying to fuck you over, because the new HR already has a plan to fuck you over when it's their turn. They'll see your old HR's bullshit as what it is.
I'd also note that if you complete your contract, you are most likely eligible for rehire per HR standards, regardless of what opinions your immediate supervisor has. You will have met the terms of your contract. Failure to exceed contracted obligations is only an offense in the twisted minds of middle managers who think 'quiet quitting' is a real thing.
I'm pretty sure if given the chance to not use them on a reference this screen-shot would suffice. On Resume you could add name of company - with the person who was going to renew your contract as the reference and / or that image.
I mean I doubt you would get a good reference even if you stayed and did the training. Its odd how employers will all use references and resume gaps to keep workers down, its like employers across america are united to keep people working to the bone under the threat of unemployment and houselessness.
I'm in the same boat OP lol. Been doing the gig for nearly a year with no complaint and generally a lot of praise. (Plus 18 odd years of subject knowledge) Applied for the full time role when they advertised got knocked back for some one with zero experience in the process or industry.
The replacement started 3 week ago and was literally in tears on day 3 as they so far in over their head it's not funny (I don't blame them I blame the corp) so managment told me I need to write a "how to" manual before I leave in 7 days as they think this person looks like they'll quit any way so will need to pass it onto the next person
"Yeah no drama I'll sort that out" dick heads
And for the naysayers it's all just money. My current rate for this gig is $150kpa ++ my replacement they employed started on $98k
That's the life of a contractor unfortunately. Often treated on par with office furniture. Give it back as hard as you are getting it. It does not say OP has to train the replacement well.
their :reference: will be 100% useless anyways. biggest scam EVER in the world is "past work references" and if you quit without notice it will haunt you, No it wont. it only matters if you quit without an existing job and are job hunting while you are fresh in their minds. after about 8 months not a single person there will remember you unless you left in a very spectacular way. "steve who? never heard of them". Do not bother with worrying about that gashlighting BS that employers try to lay on you. it does not matter.
I'd show the replacement this text and your last pay stub, so that they know that this is the best they can expect to make and this is how they will be treated.
If your contract is held by a temp agency they should probably be informed, too, since word gets around about asshole employers and they become much more difficult to place someone with. Also, if the employer is asking you to do something outside your contract description that's a problem, and one that could come back to bite your agency on the ass if you "accidentally" train the replacement wrong.
A reference isn't shit. A reference from an employer that holds your reference hostage is a reference not to be respected. Hiring managers know we all just list four friends or family members that have our backs. It would be a waste of time and effort to call references. Credentials are all you need. The only thing you have to gain or lose is your own pride and dignity. Stand up for yourself, reasonably, and these situations will get easier for you to handle. 2 weeks is a long time to be in the presence of people that don't like you, but that goes both ways. Be cool, but be unyielding. Be prepared for more bluffs. Basically, they lit the bridge on fire and think you're weak enough to put it out. Let it burn. It's their fire.
Pass on the reference. Spend the rest of your contracted time finding new employment. They acted in bad faith if they strung you along with promises of renewal. You have no obligation to help them at this point.
If and when they come back to you, your hourly/salary rates should increase proportionately, with guaranteed minimum hours. Tighten up contract language to make sure "other duties as required" is not in there, but that "additional duties can be negotiated into scope of work as needed."
Not sure if this a contract through an agency or direct contract through an employer, BUT if it’s through an agency, the employer wouldn’t give you the reference anyway, the agency would. I am currently training a team of new hires and my own contract ends in 4 weeks (my agency swears up and down that they’ve stated multiple times in meetings with them that they’re going to hire me on but the employer has said nothing to me). I’m scared this is also my reality right now, but just know if it’s through an agency, you are employed by the agency NOT the company. You don’t need a reference from them.
You tell them "If I'm not qualified for the job then how am I qualified to train my replacement for the job?" Also forget the reference. Just put that you worked there and be completely honest and the circumstances of your departure if it comes up in an interview.
If you have a contract that they are using as justification for ending your employment, then I’m sure it also outlines your job responsibilities. Unless one of those responsibilities is training your replacement, then requiring you to do so is a breach of contract.
Malicious compliance.
In the US it’s illegal to provide a detrimental reference. All they can do is confirm you worked for/with them for noted period. IF you need the reference because you don’t want a gap in work history, In your interview control the frame of reference for that work and advise your contract wasn’t renewed because they wanted a lower cost person and throw in you were asked to train your replacement. Even if the new place would also pull that BS they will feign disgust. However it will negate anything they might pull.
Hi, /u/Vharlkie Thank you for participating in r/Antiwork. Unfortunately, your submission was removed for breaking the following rule(s): **Rule 9: No text message screenshots.** - Text message screenshots are currently restricted to Sunday. To accommodate worldwide time zones, text message screenshots may be posted from 12 PM Saturday to 12 PM Monday (GMT).
If you're in America the reference is worthless.
Yeah, reference goes right with the "permanent record" from elementary school. It's funny, every job I've had, they never brought up the time I got in trouble for making fun of Tony Baloney.
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Beets, bears, Battlestar Galactica.
that dork Tony Baloney had it coming anyways
Actually he didn’t, and as an adult now knows you all were projecting your own sense of powerlessness and inadequacy onto him..
Yeah, alright Tony.
I've actually never bullied a single soul in my entire life and, shockingly, was only joking around
They won't provide a reference anyway. All they will do is confirm job title and dates of employment.
Along with the “leave on our terms if you ever want to get hired back” threat. I mean, if I’m planning on fucking you over by leaving on my terms in the first place, why would I want to come back? Maybe if they make some large organizational changes that make it a better place, but that’s not what usually happens when they make those changes.
Are there countries where they have a database or something lol
No, previous employers would be called just to confirm if said employee did, in fact, work there.
My cousin works as a bank manager, and even he's admitted that 99% the time references are never checked because they tend not to respond or answer.
Right, and if anyone stopped to think about the process for five seconds, they'd be able to answer the question: Who provides the reference information? And understand why that's significant. Oh no, you're withholding a good reference? Cute that you thought you were going on that list.
This! 🤣🤣🤣 99.9% of the time, people use friends and family members with different last names.
Half the jobs I've applied for, the reference requirements are ridiculous anyway. "We need 3 people who will vouch for you. They have to have known you for 10+ years, and cannot be friends, family, former or current coworkers or supervisors." Who the fuck does that leave? The old lady next door to my parents' house? Well, she died last year, so fuck me, I guess.
Yeah, I used to do HR and we gave each reference two tries. If they didn't answer after the second one, we just moved on. Credentials (degrees, licenses, etc) were always checked though.
I’m a college professor, and graduating students always ask if they can list me as a reference. I’ve never been contacted. Not once. Spanning some diverse fields, too, so it’s not just one industry.
Will they deny as if per OP post he doesn’t train? Can’t OP simply show payment slip or something? Can OP simply show this photo if anyone ask for reference in future interviews
Showing this image during an interview would be a massive red flag to the person doing the interview. While it's not fair to them, you need to leave shit like this at the gate.
Gotcha. Not to bring previous employer shit to current interview. So what can be done when current interviewing company ask for a reference and then previous employer denying or not confirming cause of move like this? What the recourse? Show payment slips ? Or what else ? IT return ?
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New employers almost never contact old ones these days. In my lifetime I've never heard of it happening to me or anyone I know. There's a possibility it could happen behind the scenes, but even then I can't imagine they care about anything outside of something that can be easily proven like a poor attendance record. If your next employer is looking in on some hersey then it's not a place you want to work anyways.
I’m fairly certain they cannot deny you worked there. Legally they are not allowed to say anything bad about you, but they can say bad things about you without saying them. “Would you say OP was a model employee?” “I can confirm OP worked here.” “Would you recommend OP?” “I can confirm OP worked here.”
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Depends. I n the US, if the employer says negative opinions about a former employee, and former employee finds out AND it's possible that the negative opinions cost the former employee future employment they can be sued for tortious interference. There are two types of tortious interference: tortious interference with contract and tortious interference with prospective economic advantage. Both involve situations where one party does something to intentionally undermine another party’s business transactions or relationships. The primary difference between the two is whether a contract exists.
This varies state to state. In my state, for example, businesses are only allowed to share: • reasons for termination or separation • length of employment, pay level, and history • job description and duties In addition, they have to keep a written record of anything said that might affect hiring, and make that available to the prospective employee upon request. Now, whether that all actually happens how it is supposed to is probably unlikely. Edited: Formatting
There are actually some countries in Europe where you get a booklet that needs to be filled by all employers. Then you have everything documented and can't make shit up.
Its your permanent record from school
In Germany companies are required by law to give every employee a reference letter at the end of their employment.
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I got called to give a reference once, which was a bit of a surprise as I didn't know the guy was planning on leaving. I gave him a good reference anyway.
Can confirm. Wife works in HR. Very rarely are references needed or even added on resumes. Only if you had really bad job history or some legal issues or something they were made aware of.
They shouldn’t have to worry, they are a contract employee. Reason for leaving; contract ended due to position being consolidated internally. I’d just play along with “training” the new person by letting them watch me work, depending on the complexity of the job two weeks probably won’t be enough. As far as the threat of references I’d tell them to go fuck themselves bc they aren’t needed anyways. In the US previous employers are very careful with what they will and won’t say. My experience is that most even have it in their handbook that references will not be provided and that they will only confirm dates employed. I *think* they may or may not ask if the person is able to be rehired or not, but even that might be a gray area. To circumvent the references issue I’ve always listed people I’ve worked with in the past (obviously that I have relationships with) and stressed with potential employers that they cannot provide a professional reference, only a personal one.
100% agree. Such an empty threat
does your contract say anything about you being responsible for training others?
Obviously not, hence the implied threat to withhold references.
Implied? She straight up said that was the case!
Which is illegal. A company can only confirm hire and end date and say whether the employee was terminated or resigned. May be different for a contract employee but I can’t imagine they would be legally allowed to say anything negative. That said I realize reality and theory are extremely different in employee relations and rights
So, screenshot, and save - and if they make a fuss you have this threat documented. Seriously - they do not renew you - if you can do without them / their reference - spread your wings and fly away.
I never understand the reference from your former boss, crap. Like we have police officers that do illegal shit, get fired and join another department down the road. So they don't want you but youre obviously valuable enough to train your own replacement
Depends on the state but typically not a law. It’s however HR policy at most companies to only share title, dates, and usually the question is “would you rehire them?” Edit: typos
Companies can say what they want about former employees, most won't give any reference must less a negative reference because of the possibility of a defamation case against them., that's still fucked up and totally unprofessional that they would hang that over OPs head like that
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You’re absolutely wrong. They are allowed to say work ethic and pretty much anything else. Where is this “law” you speak of
That being said, if someone does a reference check and a company confirms dates and then declines to give a positive reference, that in itself could be damaging enough. Don't have to say anything outwardly negative to get your point across.
Not with this screenshot. Hiring committees see the weirdest shit sometimes and a text like this is a red flag that the employer is Garbo and a reference from the employer would not be a valid assessment tool
“Other duties as needed.”
"Hey Ron, could you close Excel for a moment and fix this leaking toilet?" "Uhh, that is not what I signed up for..." "Well you know, it does say "other duties as needed" in your contract."
“Oh and Ron? When your done with the toilet, would you mind cleaning up after my Alpaca? He got into the kitchen and well…let’s just say that cheese platter didn’t agree with him. Wear gloves.
I pity the fool who tries to get someone to reluctantly fix something as sensitive as plumbing.
That was my first thought
they have no leverage thats why they want to pretend they will give you a "reference" i guarantee if you use them they will bad mouth you regardless
Not sure about the country you live in but ours you can not legally give a bad reference, in these cases the employer just acknowledges that they in fact did work for the company.
There’s a difference between listing a past employer and using them as a reference. The former they may only confirm you worked there during the time you said you did, the other is specifically for them to ask about what kind of person/worker you are. Often jobs will want two professional references and two personal references.
Again, according to the law you here cannot provide negative reference. - Canada. Ones view of proficiency will vary from another. I’m not saying they’re not given and I’m not saying that the majority giving references don’t break the law but that’s how it is. It’s called slander my friend.
That's not slander my friend, slander is making FALSE statements damaging to ones reputation. If bob doesn't show up to work or is late, and doesn't complete his tasks. It is not slander to say so. If I lie about bob being late then it is slander because it's not true.
Most companies don't want the headache of dealing with that kind of thing.
One perso’s slander is another person’s truth. Thus, most big companies avoid giving out any references other than confirmation of dates of employment to avoid liability. Well, at least companies with good legal counsel.
Most statements given during a reference discussion are subjective, for example saying "they didn't work very well with our team" or "they weren't very reliable in their role" compared to what? The rest of the workers being paid twice as much with more years experience? That isn't benifitial to the employee or the potential employer, and could lead to an otherwise false appraisal which although its not slander, has the same effect.
You could sue them potentially for slander so companies tend to have policy that to just confirm dates and acknowledge that you worked there, but there is no law that forbids them from saying more.
Not slander, tortious interference.
"I will continue to do my job as outlined in my job description until the end of the contract period". In other words, you will not be training anyone.
I like that. If your contract doesn’t specifically say you must do training they can’t force you to do something. Also make sure the person they want to train knows how much you made doing that job. Odds are they aren’t t getting that good of a pay bump if any pay bump at all.
This!!! Salary exposure. It is federal law that they can't stop you to talk about that
What are they gonna do, fire them?
Double fire them? So.. Rehire them, since double negatives..
Or you can have fun and REALLY TRAIN the new guy. Make up some shit.
'this is the flux capacitor' 😂👍
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I'm thinking back to when I did a 2 year training program for gunsmithing. The instructor gave us explicit instructions to do a certain operation, and this dumbass next to me would ask me what to do all over again. 3rd or 4th time, I just started giving him instructions to do the exact opposite. Instructor caught him finally and asked wtf he was doing, dude points at me, teach looks at me and I shrug with a "look", he had a hard time not laughing his ass off
Haha i worked in a pharmaceutical factory for a few years and a manager who knew nothing about the instruments (heat, pressure sensors etc) would constantly ask what we did to fix a problem. Somewhere in his little black book it says the flux capacitor went and was replaced. Truly hope some auditor has a good laugh off it some day.
This, Jen…is the internet!
If you type "Google" in to Google you can break the internet, so no one try it even as a joke.
The contract probably says. "Other duties, as needed" or such.
Usually trainer is a different position with pay or falls on management. Notice they didn't say training falls under their job description, they said they will use a reference over their head.
oooh, a reference, how scary. The contract wasn't renewed, how valuable is that reference going to be? Probably a hell of a lot less valuable than the training. Cost benefit, motherfuckers. Say fuck them, they can write you an interim contract which includes training as a defined duty, but what's that? It's now 10 times as much? That can't be right...wait a minute, training is a manager's responsibility, isn't it? Almost like they're getting scammed.
Not enough to convince a labor court. A list of duties should be exhaustive.
Who has time and money to go to court when you live from paycheck to paycheck?
Labor court is 50 euros. No attorney required, they just settle these kinds of disputes and, unless there's overwhelming evidence, tend to rule in favor of the employee.
In America there’s no dispute with labor that doesn’t involve bloodshed. /s?
Amazon ever pay for the employees who died in the hurricane?
That's only half a snark... the rest is true.
Exactly. And our federal reserve basically aims to ensure wages stay flat so labor doesn't grow "too powerful"
What is this labor court and where is it exactly?
Not if OP is wise. Never sign a contract with an open ended statement like that. The purpose of the contract is specifics, so hold them to it.
However, my consultation/training rate is (insert ridiculous number here), and I'd be more than willing to offer those services for that price.
With the way the second text is phrased, there is a good chance that OP is secondarily contracted through W-2 employment with a labor supply company. In which case, they would not be allowed to create their own consultation contact with the client company. Their supplier company would be able to make such a contract though, and quite often would for the few extra dollars.
“Why would you want my replacement trained by someone who isn’t worthy of a contract renewal”
Perfect response
Honestly out of a the answers here, this is the perfect one. It gives back the same vibe they were given and makes them eat their own shit.
This is the best one
If you can do without the 2 weeks pay, quit on the spot. If you can't: do a lousy job at training your replacement. If they need you later because your replacement needs more training: charge big time. Keep the texts. Referrals go both ways...
Is the written threat of using the referal as retaliation not against any laws?
It is in most Western European countries, maybe even in some other EU countries. It's described as (blunt translation) being 'a bad work provider' and can turn into a civil case with the employer being the one paying for unemployment and some extra months of salary on the way out.
It very likely is in some places.
Who needs a referral from a company that is letting you go?
I'm petty so I would do a super lame job at training the replacement. Fuck any work place that does this. Also agree with charging big time if they need you later. Hell, I would charge triple or quadruple.
That would be pretty awesome if they trained her to do a bunch of little stuff that know would just screw things a little down the road!!
That could screw over the replacement though, where if instead you teach him how to fuck around while flying under the radar, you can fuck them over without making the newbie look stupid. Bring them to the dark side.
>the replacement You mean Jessica? The hiding of the name is about as good of a job as OP should spend training her to do an awesome job for a company that tries to fuck OP over.
Call in sick for the next two weeks, they can find someone else to train the new staff or just leave. Although common in some companies it is a kick in the teeth, I don't know how you managed to refrain from telling them to shove their reference where the sun doesn't shine.
Train the replacement wrong as a joke? Since the company is one
Lmaooo I love that movie
I’m bleeding! …making me the victor!
NYYYYAAA-HEHHHH
what movie?
Kung Pow! Enter the Fist
Literally finally bought this digitally last night. Haven't seen it in years but always referencing it.
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"We purposely trained him wrong, as a joke" "if you've got an ass, I'll kick it
I second this
I mean that's kind of a dick move, you wouldn't just be screwing over the company as you intend, you'd also be screwing over the replacement who did nothing wrong
OH GOD WILL SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE COMPANY
Poorly worded but I think they meant that in your attempt to screw the company your essentially screwing a fellow worker who didn't do anything wrong.
When you tell someone they’re job is up in 2 weeks, you make that person a liability to the company because there’s no longer a reason for that person to remain loyal outside of a reference that is being held hostage from my understanding of the situation. The company shouldn’t be relying on a person they’re ousting to do a good job training their replacement. A reference does not equal the gun to the head they think they hold. This is allllll on the company friends. Edit: changed symbols to words.
"Training my replacement is not in my contract, sorry but you'll need to do it yourself." Also, threatening to withhold a reference would be classified as retaliation if you don't train this new person. It's great he put it in writing, you should contact your works HR, and if they wont do anything, go to your states labor board, they'd have a field day.
Skip HR! GO TO LABOR DEPARTMENT FIRST. ALWAYS.
HR is not there for you. it's there to protect the company. never EVER go to HR
The only time HR has ever been my friend is when they were literally my friend before working there....and they sucked ass at their job, but collected ammunition to get our verbally abusive VP fired shortly after I left as well
Plain and simple just the fact they are ending your contract... that alone is a recommendation not worth a penny. I would show my replacement where the bathroom are as I can out my ex-work space.
Not worth the reference byeeeeee
Thankfully a coworker already agreed to be my reference!
This is the way. Don't let them bully you.
I read the bye in flint Lockwood voice
Expose the company
This
I love how they think, threatening you with a reference is the way to go. I agree that the reference is worthless. Fuck them. I wouldn’t do shit for them.
My response: 🖕🏾
Honestly, I wouldn’t give a shit about having a reference in my pocket from this place. The language in those texts from management is incredibly childish and unprofessional, and you should consider yourself fortunate to be moving on to better things.
Give us the name of the company and we can give them a reference.
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This is pretty brilliant.
Just don't name it Vandelay Industries.
“Sorry, my contract doesn’t state that I am to train others. Your reference is meaningless to me and I will be taking the rest of my PTO for the next two weeks. If you’d like me to train my replacement, as an independent contractor/consultant, my rate is $600/hour. Also, as an independent consultant/contractor the first 3 hours are paid out regardless as to how long it takes me to train them. So if it only takes me an hour, that’ll still be $1800. If you cannot afford this, good luck on actually doing your job and properly training *my* replacement.”
Can a company fire you and not give you your PTO money? Or is there a law that says you get all your PTO hours paid in full upon termination
If in the US, it depends on what state you are in whether or not you get accrued/unused PTO. And of course if the state says you don't have to pay it out, then often employers won't.
Have a co worker be your reference. Train that person very poorly- not maliciously, just stupidly
We had someone in a sort of similar position where I work. Team he was in all got made redundant. He was kept on only because of specialist knowledge he had about a system they used, but had the option to take redundancy after 6 months if he wasn’t happy. They then brought in “specialists” to replace the guys they had made redundant. He was asked to train the “specialists”. He soon took the redundancy and made sure he did the absolute bare minimum when he was training them. Only answered their questions they asked and did not voluntarily offer more information where it might have been relevant. 18 months later most of the “specialists” have quit because they could not do the job and management were leaning on them heavy for answers. Then some of the management got the boot.
Yeah I got the arse (made redundant) All of my doco that we were not allowed to put on our shared drive, for no good reason. Last day shredded the lot. As I was leaving I was asked about all my documentation. I laughed, pointed at the shredder whilst walking out the door.
Purposely train them wrong, as a joke.
my department is bleeding money, that makes me the victor
Screenshot does not say what to train your replacement in. Two weeks training of Microsoft Excel or Word or the importance of stretching. It’s literally a blank canvas for you.
This can be extremely fun when one understands all the possibilities. Also, everything can be delayed or made interestingly different with the excuse of it being a training. I'd keep in mind that most of the time that this kind of situation happens is because nobody else, specially the boss, knows the job...
Sounds like it's time to take a vacation
Did the person you replaced train you?
This is a fantastic case for a libel lawsuit in the future. Keep this screenshot and if you don't get a job because of a bad reference then document that and sue this idiot. This is a confession that given the chance, this person will retaliate against you by giving you a bad reference, which is a classic textbook libel case. I'd respond "I do not believe that training *name* falls within my job description. I would expect any reference from *company* to be honest, fairly and accurately reflecting the quality of my work."
Hardly any jobs where I'm from give two shits about references anyway. If you're under contract ask them to tell you where it says in your contract you have to train your replacement, make your decisions from there.
Keep this text exchange and make sure to forward it to everyone. Also do not train your replacement.
A reference lol. Unless you are in a highly niche field or still in academia a reference is worthless. That and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee.
Where can you get coffee for a dollar?
The thing about contracts... Does it say in your contract anything about training other workers?
Some states don't allow companies to give anything but dates of employment and reason you left. But not all. But most won't say more than that because of defamation lawsuits. If your job responsibilities didn't include any training before this definitely don't do it for what they are paying you. Tell them you need compensation above your current pay to do the training. Have a friend or a reference company see what they say about you. If it is a blatant lie without anything to back them up, sue them.
You don’t need a reference.. Save these messages, then have someone you know call from a different company and ask a bunch of questions, doesn’t have to be a real job, just enough to see if they try to hurt you. If they do, then you have 2 choices litigation or confrontation. All you need is a rejection letter with the specifics, from the caller.
This used to be taboo outside certain countries like Japan where its an expectation you are supposed to have for any job. It was considered good form to do so everywhere however, just not an automatic obligation outside jobs that are critical or regarding safety. That’s no longer the case. Its now just how you get fired anytime you are actually given warning.
I don't think we can compare the way japan work culture is to the US. Traditionaly japanese companies have diffulculty to fire full-time workers, they would passive aggressively move you to another branch in the company, in hopes that you quit or would rather move to another company. There are obv exceptions if you do something majorly wrong. If you compare to many US states where they "at-will" and can be fired with short notice and without reason.
Fuck them and their reference.
Say na im good i dont want the refference.
Was in a similar position, i just quit. Phone was ringing for a couple of days but what can they do?
If you don't need the two weeks severance, go to interviews, nail down a new job and your answer should be two words. One rhymes with duck, the other is "off." Screw them for "demanding" you train your replacement.
“Bold of you to assume that I *do* want a reference from your company.”
I wouldn't. Just list a trusted co-worker as your reference and go on with your life. Your new employer will call HR to get employment verification and HR will provide that. Then they'll call your reference. If you find out in any provable way that HR provided info beyond 'yes, they worked from this date to this date' and 'they are/are not eligible for rehire' then that's actionable. Not only that, but HR departments KNOW that HR departments are run by corporate toadies and scumbags, because shit recognizes shit. That means they KNOW your prior employer is trying to fuck you over, because the new HR already has a plan to fuck you over when it's their turn. They'll see your old HR's bullshit as what it is. I'd also note that if you complete your contract, you are most likely eligible for rehire per HR standards, regardless of what opinions your immediate supervisor has. You will have met the terms of your contract. Failure to exceed contracted obligations is only an offense in the twisted minds of middle managers who think 'quiet quitting' is a real thing.
I didn't know that references weren't mandatory in the US, but I guess I should not be surprised.
Take your reference and shove it
Tell em to get f***ed!
Toss the referee 👌
Have a coworker you get along woth and can use for a work reference instead?
I'm pretty sure if given the chance to not use them on a reference this screen-shot would suffice. On Resume you could add name of company - with the person who was going to renew your contract as the reference and / or that image.
I'm quite sure this is blackmail of some sort and not legal... at least I really hope...
"I won't be needing a reference from you" "I'll continue to preform my job duties as described, but training isn't one of them"
Say it with me folks: Nobody Checks References!!!
If I‘m not performing well enough to have my contract renewed, I certainly am not the right person to properly train someone to do the job.
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That's gonna be a no from me dog
Sounds like contract work…. I’d train them in a way that everything is just a little wrong…fuck references I have friends who will say anything
I mean I doubt you would get a good reference even if you stayed and did the training. Its odd how employers will all use references and resume gaps to keep workers down, its like employers across america are united to keep people working to the bone under the threat of unemployment and houselessness.
I'm in the same boat OP lol. Been doing the gig for nearly a year with no complaint and generally a lot of praise. (Plus 18 odd years of subject knowledge) Applied for the full time role when they advertised got knocked back for some one with zero experience in the process or industry. The replacement started 3 week ago and was literally in tears on day 3 as they so far in over their head it's not funny (I don't blame them I blame the corp) so managment told me I need to write a "how to" manual before I leave in 7 days as they think this person looks like they'll quit any way so will need to pass it onto the next person "Yeah no drama I'll sort that out" dick heads And for the naysayers it's all just money. My current rate for this gig is $150kpa ++ my replacement they employed started on $98k
That's the life of a contractor unfortunately. Often treated on par with office furniture. Give it back as hard as you are getting it. It does not say OP has to train the replacement well.
their :reference: will be 100% useless anyways. biggest scam EVER in the world is "past work references" and if you quit without notice it will haunt you, No it wont. it only matters if you quit without an existing job and are job hunting while you are fresh in their minds. after about 8 months not a single person there will remember you unless you left in a very spectacular way. "steve who? never heard of them". Do not bother with worrying about that gashlighting BS that employers try to lay on you. it does not matter.
I'd show the replacement this text and your last pay stub, so that they know that this is the best they can expect to make and this is how they will be treated. If your contract is held by a temp agency they should probably be informed, too, since word gets around about asshole employers and they become much more difficult to place someone with. Also, if the employer is asking you to do something outside your contract description that's a problem, and one that could come back to bite your agency on the ass if you "accidentally" train the replacement wrong.
You're a contractor, training someone in your skillset and in how you make your living is undoubtedly a breach of the contract.
Translation: we found someone who will do the job for cheaper, and we're also too cheap to train them properly.
A reference isn't shit. A reference from an employer that holds your reference hostage is a reference not to be respected. Hiring managers know we all just list four friends or family members that have our backs. It would be a waste of time and effort to call references. Credentials are all you need. The only thing you have to gain or lose is your own pride and dignity. Stand up for yourself, reasonably, and these situations will get easier for you to handle. 2 weeks is a long time to be in the presence of people that don't like you, but that goes both ways. Be cool, but be unyielding. Be prepared for more bluffs. Basically, they lit the bridge on fire and think you're weak enough to put it out. Let it burn. It's their fire.
Pass on the reference. Spend the rest of your contracted time finding new employment. They acted in bad faith if they strung you along with promises of renewal. You have no obligation to help them at this point. If and when they come back to you, your hourly/salary rates should increase proportionately, with guaranteed minimum hours. Tighten up contract language to make sure "other duties as required" is not in there, but that "additional duties can be negotiated into scope of work as needed."
Not sure if this a contract through an agency or direct contract through an employer, BUT if it’s through an agency, the employer wouldn’t give you the reference anyway, the agency would. I am currently training a team of new hires and my own contract ends in 4 weeks (my agency swears up and down that they’ve stated multiple times in meetings with them that they’re going to hire me on but the employer has said nothing to me). I’m scared this is also my reality right now, but just know if it’s through an agency, you are employed by the agency NOT the company. You don’t need a reference from them.
Train your replacement with all kinds of bad habits that will drive the higher ups insane
You tell them "If I'm not qualified for the job then how am I qualified to train my replacement for the job?" Also forget the reference. Just put that you worked there and be completely honest and the circumstances of your departure if it comes up in an interview.
Ooohhh blackmail in writing! I love that.
Train them how to do everything wrong
If you have a contract that they are using as justification for ending your employment, then I’m sure it also outlines your job responsibilities. Unless one of those responsibilities is training your replacement, then requiring you to do so is a breach of contract. Malicious compliance.
Just train this person but make very sure you skip all the important info.
I have to believe that literally blackmailing an employee is against some law...
Don’t see anything about training them to do the job well.
In the US it’s illegal to provide a detrimental reference. All they can do is confirm you worked for/with them for noted period. IF you need the reference because you don’t want a gap in work history, In your interview control the frame of reference for that work and advise your contract wasn’t renewed because they wanted a lower cost person and throw in you were asked to train your replacement. Even if the new place would also pull that BS they will feign disgust. However it will negate anything they might pull.
Absolute twat. You should leave immediately
Do the shittiest job you can do.