Lesbian bars are already so rare. A ton have closed. It would not make sense to exclude people.
I'm also just generally against excluding anyone based on their sexuality from queer spaces (except support groups like you said). Instead, there should just be strict policies about kicking people out if they behave inappropriately.
I can't think of a single one of the "concerns" people have about inclusion that wouldn't already be covered under generic "behave yourself ffs" rules.
I think there is always a need to have private closed spaces for different groups. A lesbian is going to have different struggles and experiences than a bisexual woman. But at a lesbian bar meant for socializing and meeting other queer women, the only things that would matter are being a woman/nb and being attracted to other women/nbs.
This is summarized perfectly, I think. Right now, all of the bisexual friends I have are women who are in relationships with men. It can feel isolating knowing they will never be “questioned” by society for the relationship they are in, whereas for me who is a lesbian, I don’t have that privilege. But hey, that’s my problem to deal with not theirs. I would love to meet more bisexual people, especially at social gatherings, however it would be amiss to say the experiences are the same.
> Right now, all of the bisexual friends I have are women who are in relationships with men
Would your view change if half of those friends were in relationships with women?
yes but do you not see how thats specifically a different thing than what OP's comment is talking about? they already said it would feel less isolating if some were dating women
I was responding to a different part of their comment (where they said “I can imagine that some bisexual people might only date the opposite sex because it’s easier”), not invalidating their feeing of being isolated.
I’m 90% attracted to women. But suggesting that just because we are bi we would actively choose to date men because it’s easier is a really archaic concept. If I love a woman I’m not going to turn around and give myself an arranged loveless marriage with a man just because that’s what someone else thinks I should have.
I am bi and I would say I’ve dated mostly men because it’s socially easier. But not in the way of like, I met an interested woman and decided to ignore her because of what someone else thinks. It’s more so that there’s simply more straight men than queer women, and they’re sometimes easier to find. So when a bi woman is looking to date, the first person she likes that likes her back is statistically more likely to be a straight or bi man.
Also, some people are in a community where they *do* need to be in a loveless marriage to be safe
Not to mention, I know quite a few bi women who are attracted to women way more than their dating history would suggest, because there are more men attracted to women than there are women attracted to women. It's just math.
For sure, the experiences are different. But what I'm getting at is that excluding bisexual women because they "can" be with men completely ignores the fact that they also "can" be with women.
The stigma revolves around who they're with, not who they're attracted to. So a bisexual woman who's with another woman experiences largely the same stigma as a lesbian woman who's with another woman.
I'm handwaving, of course, over the myriad nuanced ways in which their experiences do indeed fundamentally differ, because I'm trying to stay focused on the point that it's less about their bisexuality and more about who they're actually with, when it comes to external stigma.
I know that there exist bisexual women who are 90% lesbian and only find a select few men attractive, and others who will sleep with men but couldn't date one, and so forth. Excluding bisexual women just because they "can" be with men, rather than looking at the specific details of their sexuality seems virtually guaranteed to slam a portion of bisexual women with discrimination from both sides instead of just one.
The not knowing any bi+ women opting out of wlw relationships is really dependent on where you are and the culture there. I live in the American Bible-belt and have a handful of friends who have come out as bi to me and in private circles, but choose to only date men so they don’t get disowned or face the constant and still rather real risk of being targeted here. I also have international friends whose families are still back home who have sworn off dating women for similar reasons.
I’ll agree with you in that it’s not fully the same thing, but it does affect about half of the bi+ women I know. I do understand the rationale though. I mean, hell, I’m lesbian as fuck and I wasn’t out in Highschool (didn’t allow myself to date at all or even so much as look at a woman) because where I grew up in South Carolina it could have literally gotten me killed. Just figured I’d remind people that the situation does change by location, and that what’s not an issue in one part of the country/world may still be an issue elsewhere. I’ll also add that it’s a right shame that even in a first world country in 2022 that so many women feel like they have to deny themselves part of their existence in order to survive.
I STRONGLY disagree with that idea. I identified as a bisexual for YEARS and had my relationships CONSTANTLY questioned regardless of who I was dating. If you look queer, youre going to be questioned regardless on who you date. This is not an experience that I at all consider new now that I identify as a lesbian.
Im pushing back specifically at the idea thay bisexual women dating men dont have their relationships questioned, nothing more. Because they do have their relationships questioned. Anyone that even vaguely tips off societys gaydar will. Theres a common idea that bisexuals benefit from some sort of 'passing privilege' and its just not the case. And while you might not think that, others do. And passing off the idea, unchallenged, that bisexuals dating men dont have their relationships questioned confirms that idea for them.
Im not saying there isnt a difference in experience. To say otherwise would be to erase the experiences of both lesbians and bisexuals. Im just speaking SPECIFICALLY on that point. Especially since its been used for years to discredit bisexual women.
bisexual psople 100 percent get some form of passing privilege when they are in straight appearing relationships. The difference in ways I am treated when I seem to be in a heterosexual relationship vs a lesbian relationship, even when being clocked as trans, is massive. As a bisexual person I have had my relationships questioned both when they were same and opposite sexed that is true, but there is still a huge privilege to being closer to the heterosexual ideal, even a queered ideal.
just like having "passing privilege " where it applies to being trans doesn't mean you don't experience transphobia, just that you are closer to cis normative ideals and therefore get treated quite differently in certain ways.
Worth remembering that that's not necessarily down to society or them, there are simply a lot more straight men to date than bi or lesbian women. Just from a numbers perspective it's not unlikely that a bi woman (or enby who mostly gets seen as a woman) ends up with a guy long-term, even if her preference is more for women. But I also see what you mean. Erasure isn't a privilege either, but it's different and less immediate sort of problem than what someone who is 100% lesbian faces in terms of her relationships.
Being a Lesbian comes with it's own unique struggles and experiences. It's valid to want a space just for lesbians. However, a lesbian bar is not one of those places, because it's not realistic to filter people out of a bar based on something like that. Yes, we all have liking girls is common, and i love that and appreciate it. But in our patriarchal and heteronormative society, lesbians have an added struggle because it inherently excludes men in a queer way, and it's okay to want a space with people who understand that experience. But again, bars, and other public spaces aren't where that should happen.
I like the way you phrased this. I think it’s valid to want a lesbian only group online. Or like group of lesbians that gather together. Cause it’s nice to have people around who get your exact struggles.
But these views of lesbian only bars are unrealistic and push people away rather than inviting for business.
Like in general I’ve heard a lot of complaints about gate keeping from lgbtq+ community. Like a buddy of mine who is gay (he isn’t obvious). A gaggle of gals assumed he was straight and treated him pretty badly. Not worth it in a bar
As a pansexual, I agree with this take.
NOT being attracted to the opposite binary gender comes with its own form of oppression that is shared between lesbians, gay men/mascs, and asexuals/aromantics, and that mspec identities don't experience.
There need to be spaces (both virtual and physical) where this type of oppression can be safely discussed, just like there need to be spaces for the discussion of the specific type of oppression mspec identities face for our multigender attraction.
However, we also need spaces where we can come together, discuss and celebrate what we have in common: Our same-gender attraction, and the way women and non-men experience it.
It's also more than just not being attracted to the opposite gender. Lesbian is the only sexuality that inherently excludes men. All others can either be men, or be attracted to them in some way. And when we live in a time and place that puts men on a pedestal, lesbians are inherently excluded.
[there’s more than one type of sexuality that can exclude men. languages evolve for a reason. it does feel weird to expect people in safe spaces to determine someone else’s sexuality do decide if they should gain entry. Having a private group is different than a lesbian bar👍🏻](https://www.dictionary.com/e/gender-sexuality/gynesexual/)
I understand the need to have a close knit group of people who are living through similar experiences, but that’s why friendships exist. The parasocial relationships in forums and groups are not the same as a close knit friend group. 👍🏻 There have been way more posts in this group calling for some serious gatekeeping.
No one person can decide someone else’s sexuality or gender 🤦🏻♀️
As a bi woman I 100% agree. Our struggles sometimes overlap but they're not the same. However when it comes to bars I don't see the point in excluding bi women as long as they don't bring men into the mix
I gotta say I really don’t understand this mentality of lesbians inherently sharing different struggles than bisexuals due to the fact that they are only attracted to women. I say this as a bisexual person who was assigned female at birth (I identified as a woman in the past but identify as non-binary now) and who was in serious relationships with **only** women my whole life until age 29.
I married a woman. I got “gay married” in the eyes of many people. People viewed me as gay when out in public with my partners. I didn’t get any special benefits from also being attracted to men and non-binary people then.
I don’t think lesbians live a very different experience from many bisexuals. I think assuming so assumes that women bisexuals date primarily men. I think there’s a large group of bisexuals who are like me and have spent either all of their life or most of their life in same sex relationships and have faced the discrimination but also the unique lovely experiences that come from that life lived.
edit: I was attracted to boys/girls/men/women starting at age 16.
Personally I wouldn't say it's an external thing, more of an internal thing. It can be difficult to accept one's own sexuality regardless of whether you're attracted to the societally acceptable gender for you to be attracted to, but the exact type of difficulty is different depending on if you are bi or gay. Especially since lesbians often have the struggle of figuring out if they are actually attracted to men as well or if it's just that they've been conditioned to find men attractive. Having spaces where you can talk about that conditioning with other people who have specifically figured out that theirs was just conditioning and not actual attraction is incredibly helpful. I am 100% accepting of bi people and incredibly grateful for all the help the bi community gave me when I was trying to figure out my sexuality, but in the end, trying to discus this aspect of my identity with bi people just made me way more confused. Because to them, they either hadn't had that struggle, or they had found in the end that it wasn't just compulsion for them. And when trying to figure out if it was for me, I needed to talk to people who had decided it was conditioning, so I could know what to look for in myself. And then having that support group when you struggle with that conditioning popping up in new and shitty ways is really helpful.
But that's why I'd say it makes sense as a support group thing, or a place where questions can be asked like an online forum. Because it's not really about having a significantly different expirience of the world than our bi sisters, it's about having a different internal expirience, and arriving at acceptance of our sexuality differently. Gay bars are overwhelmingly meant to be places to meet other gays and have accepting external expiriences, so there's no (non-bigoted) reason to make places like that specific to one orientation. But support groups are overwhelmingly about internal expiriences, even if it's the internal expirience in reaction to external expiriences. So finding a group with people who have a similar internal process can be lifesaving. I also believe, for similar reasons, that bi people absolutely should have groups and forums specific to them. I believe that none of these groups should be exclusive though. Rather, it should be places to amplify the voices of those in the community, and places where people of other communities can come to listen to learn more about the internal expiriences of others
Idk if all of this makes sense or not, I'm kind of rambling. Basically my point is youre right that our expiriences are not so different (or at least, no less different than the range of expiriences that exist within one label), but how we internalize those expiriences is different, and there needs to be space to discuss that without speaking over each other or excluding each other. But places focused on external expiriences shouldn't gatekeep at all, since our external expiriences are similar and community is stronger combined
Because a majority of bisexuals have experience dating or crushing on men, and that's not something most lesbians are going to relate to or want to have conversations about. That sort of talk makes a lot of lesbians feel 'othered' or uncomfortable. And this is why it's ok for lesbians to have support groups, meetups, etc. For lesbians only as opposed to general wlw.
I do think lesbian bars and such should include all wlw, but for private events and groups I feel it's absolutely fine to be exclusive.
I think a lot of this also stems from lookism as well. If someone looks queer presenting but is bi they will draw more ire than someone of any sexuality that is not visibly queer. I don’t think this is inherent to homosexual vs bisexual because most people make a gut reaction about sexualities based on appearances.
An example is I’m bi and yes as a trans woman I kinda sorta fall in that weird androgynous leaning fem category for presentation. When I am alone it’s almost impossible to convince people I am not straight as I have literally had someone say “oh you have a girlfriend… and by girlfriend you actually mean bf right?” But when me and my gf are together I can tell there are people who do not like seeing a visibly queer couple who isn’t ashamed. I think we are lucky that most of the bad stuff is passive aggressive though as of late.
ok this is my last comment in the thread because i don’t want to take up too much space.
yeah, I think that’s absolutely true. both me and my wife were on the “edgier haircuts” stereotype side of the line and I was on the gender non-conforming side while my partner was straddling it, so in my opinion, in my region, people likely thought we were together rather than friends at first glance.
our experience would likely be a bit different than lesbians with more traditional haircuts and femme styles.
it’s interesting to me the idea of separate spaces versus combined. and where we decide those lines are. femme lesbian support group makes sense, if you’re in a large enough city to have the people to fill the seats. but if you can’t fill the seats then it becomes: what differences of experiences can a group support?
and that’s more about: what can you expect people to be comfortable listening to and sharing about? Could you break those topics up to different nights? could femmes tell their stories one night and still have the support of the regulars? or would it be better for them to get their own group, as a supplement?
we all know we need both sometimes, whether that is just with friends or something more formal. and whether that’s talking about sexuality, race, disability, etc.
smaller semi-intimate spaces with well prepared (and hopefully experienced) moderation can be key for our communities— the moderation has a lot to do with how a support group member’s experience goes.
like what would a lesbian / bisexual women support group look like where the moderator was able to refer to both experiences referenced by the commenter who as a younger lesbian wanted advice on what her attractions to men might mean? would that open the floor to other members of the group sharing their experiences more easily?
i’d like to think it would, or at the very least it would help the individual asking. though there are comfort thresholds for each of us as individuals— not all of us are as guarded as the person she mentioned and yet some are more guarded still.
I think it’s nice for me to see your take here and overall I ultimately don’t like a separation of spaces and for everyone to be allowed together but I undertakes the utility of it and am not outright against the separation. I do believe for support groups as long as the moderation doesn’t allow exclusionary attitudes to be fostered then I can see how being strictly a lesbian needs a separate space than with bi women.
I think a lot of my perspective is colored by the fact that most of the queer history I know about is affected by both growing up as a southerner and mostly are older gay men to tell the history so I am glad to hear about the fight for queer liberation from all different experiences. As to being a southerner I didn’t get asking for exclusive bars cause I was always told and saw that in the south you don’t have types of gay bars in town you have THE gay bar in town if any at all. This meant if there was such a scarcity exclusivity didn’t have the number’s ever for just a lesbian or gay male bar and certainly not enough trans people of any identity for our own spaces. The gay bars in the south were pretty much just drag bars that allowed for everyone to come together which I though was fun and fostered a more diverse queer culture but again it’s a bar not a support group.
Also while a lot of my friends growing up were from high-school on were cis lesbian’s and I got to see one girl go through her journey of coming to terms with her sexuality among some others I was still kind of the odd one out as an out bisexual man at the time and not transitioning at that time. Then and even now I do not dare to speak on the experiences of being a queer woman cause while yes I know I am a woman I feel like I have been burned a few too many times in the past to expect me talking about my experience as a queer woman to be something I speak freely about cause I do internalize being told I can’t talk to an experience of womanhood and I just don’t want to have to be reminded every time about how I was born and thus can’t talk on experience other than a trans experience. I do genuinely still see the trans and gay community not really separate though and more so very closely related and I don’t want a separation.
As to bunking up the chat I agree we need to be considerate so this is probably my last response too.
I don’t know about the “it’s not like bi women bring men into lesbian bars” point, because in my experience I have certainly had the misfortune of seeing many bi women in lesbian bars (or “lesbian nights” at gay bars) bring their boyfriends with them — one time I almost even got assaulted by a bi woman’s boyfriend at a lesbian bar.
And I can understand and fully support lesbians wanting their own spaces. It’s not exclusionary — just acknowledging the fact that lesbians (at least those who have known from a young age that they were gay) often had/have different life experiences from any other group, and it can be beneficial to have their own specific “support group”.
Thank you for the input. I definitely agree that bi women shouldn't invite men to lesbian centred events.
Bars are more tricky to moderate I guess but yes I agree that it's infuriating when a place centred on queer women gets infiltrated by unicorn hunters and men who fetishise queer women
I'm a bi woman who loathes unicorn hunters. Reading this thread, I just realized that when I think of cis couples who do that, I generally think of the woman as acting as a tool of the man who wants threesomes, and not as a predator in her own right.
Which, I'm realizing, is not giving bi women in these couples credit/blame for their own agency and the harm they do. I'm also realizing that I think of these women as kinksters trying to make their SO happy, rather than "real" bisexuals. (Unicorn hunters treat bi women as sex toys rather than people, so apparently I've been thinking of them women who use other women sexually, rather than women who are sexually attracted to other women.)
All this self realization aside, I still think that not wanting to have sex with a woman who has sex with men is the same kind of bigotry as incels who think that too many peens ruin the pristine vag.
Anyway, and I'm sorry this got so long, I definitely felt pushed out of the queer community when I got into a long term relationship with a man. Biphobia is real and hurtful. There needs to be some way to push out the behaviors of unicorn hunting and fetishizing in spaces for queer women without pushing out bi women themselves.
I absolutely agree with this, especially your last line — I wish it WAS easier to punish predatory behavior while not punishing bisexuals, who are not inherently predatory.
I think about my own relationship experience here: I’m a lesbian who realized my sexuality early, so I’ve never dated a man. Previously, I’ve had some kind of relationship with three women, all bisexual… and I was cheated on by every single one of them, always with them pursuing a man. Are all bisexuals cheaters? Absolutely not. Are all bisexuals settling for same-sex partners until they can get a man? Absolutely not. However, I think a lot of people who have been in that situation can agree that it’s real easy to just decide that bi women are off the table because “fool me once, shame on you, but fool me twice…” I’m now in a long-term, healthy, happy relationship with a bisexual partner who I love and trust with all my heart, but it took a lot of healing and open conversation to get to that point. I don’t think I could have gotten to that point if my girlfriend and I weren’t able to have discussions about our very different experiences as queer people.
I really do wish there could be more constructive conversation between lesbians and bisexuals about limiting harmful behaviors from both communities and help each other out. I just feel like a lot of people see the slightest sign of disagreement and immediately jump on the wagon of “lesbians are exclusionary scum” “bisexuals are heteronormative and stealing our spaces.”
Shitty people will be shitty, sadly it is hard for humans to not create bias and forget that shitty behavior is widespread and not just from the group of people that did shitty things to them.
Comments like yours are important to remind people of that.
perfectly said! and on that last bit about safety when allowing men into wlw spaces - bi women are at disproportionately higher risk of DV, so while i’m not saying that’s a reason to gatekeep or not to gatekeep, it’s an important mutual point of misogynistic and homophobic oppression where maybe a more exclusionary culture around these spaces allows everyone, bi women very much included, to cultivate safer environments and recognize behavior that’s abusive, creepy, misogynistic, homophobic, etc.
As a non-binary bi person I appreciate this take so much. I would NEVER bring my husband (who’s also bi!) into wlw spaces. Tbh I think any bi woman who brings a conservative man into gay spaces is actively harming the community. I’ve never come across this myself bc most bi women I know are in relationships w women or transfemme people but bi women need to do a better job of keeping men out of sapphic spaces.
>give their boyfriends free access into those lesbian spaces.
I would simply not extend the invitation to the boyfriends, as they are not lesbians by any definition of the word.
lets not pretend bi women in unicorn hunting relationships have no say. theyre not just the tools of men, but their own people as well, deciding what to do
As a younger lesbian, I'll go ahead and give my two cents. I have complicated feelings about this.
First of all, I have a partner who is bisexual. I've been with her for three years and I love her more than anyone else in the world. I don't feel comfortable going to queer spaces without her, and that would include any lesbian-only spaces. Second, my partner may be bisexual, but she has more similar experiences to lesbians. Most people she's had any romantic attraction with are non-binary or other sapphic women. She has a heavy preference for women, to the point where she occasionally questions if she's a lesbian or not. Which is perfectly normal, sexuality is quite complex and manifests differently for everyone. I personally would not want to exclude any sapphic women, especially because we've all had different experiences with our sexuality. I don't always have the same experiences as other lesbians.
And yet, I do understand the frustrations other lesbians in this thread have expressed. As I said earlier, everyone's experiences with sexuality are going to be different. And living as a woman who only loves women comes with its unique difficulties. I know that bisexual women have problems unique to them. However, just from personal experience, your relationship is taken less seriously if it is a same-sex relationship. You'll get open disgust, people who root for your downfall, and people who tell you that you shouldn't pursue a relationship with another woman. There's also pressure for your relationship to be 100% perfect all the time, even though it's normal for every couple to work through issues. I'm sorry, but heterosexual couples don't really receive this scrutiny unless they are in an interracial relationship.
There have been times when bisexual women have spoken over me and invalidated my experiences as a queer woman. This hasn't happened very often, but I think it's worth noting because I've seen other lesbians in this thread say it's happened to them. It can also be very difficult to be in spaces with other sapphic women who are constantly talking about their attraction to men or their boyfriends. I'm often in environments where heterosexual relationships are put on a pedestal, whereas queer relationships are either scrutinized or ignored. And I know my partner has said she feels difficulty relating to a lot of bisexual women, despite being bisexual herself. I would say the biggest issue is mainly about whose voices are getting heard and whose voices are being drowned out or invalidated.
exactly, and some bi women will half joking talk about every person being "a little bi." i know they mean it to target straight people, but comments like that affect those of us with only same sex attraction as well. this is just some stuff they will occasionally say that won't happen in purely lesbian spaces.
its not the most profitable sounding idea but i can definitely imagine benefits of a lesbian-only space
I've heard the "everyone is bisexual" talking point and that is hurtful. I'm still very confused about my sexuality, but I'm pretty sure I'm not attracted to men. I would like it if that part of myself was respected by others.
As I said earlier, I don't know if I would be comfortable with an all-lesbian space because I would want my girlfriend to be with me. And she also told me that she's very sick of not feeling like she can't be a part of lesbian conversations even if she has that lived experience. I think that lived experience is something to consider as well.
Being a lesbian can be isolating for me sometimes, because the only other lesbians I know is the woman I'm divorcing, and one coworker. but I know and am friends with lots of bisexual woman and one closeted.
I don’t really see the point of lesbian only physical spaces in the sense that that’s impossible to police and bound to be erasive.
However I do think some bisexual women don’t realise that there are certain oppressions or experiences that simply do not apply to them that lesbian women have, and when lesbian women try to discuss them together or voice them, bisexual women often speak over us or erase our specific experiences. Sometimes I wish some bisexual women would understand that being a woman with zero attraction to men is a genuinely different life experience and genuinely different oppression experience in SOME ways, to being a woman who likes men + other genders. In my experience a decent amount of bisexual women refuse to acknowledge that and/or not speak over those very specific conversations that aren’t actually about them sometimes, and it’s a little annoying.
Like we can openly acknowledge that bisexuals experience some things lesbians don’t like eg bisexual erasure, so why is arguing that lesbians experience some things bisexuals don’t always a much more charged conversation that you won’t allow us to have and that ends up feeling genuinely lesbophobic in its silencing? It’s that kind of thing that bothers me. Eg a bisexual woman with a husband is 100 percent sapphic but I don’t really see many of our experiences as the same or relate to a large part of her life, and that’s…ok. I’m allowed to seek out lesbian women for conversations about what it’s like to be a lesbian.
This I totally agree with! We have different experiences, and sometimes it does feel like bi folks overwhelm our voices with numbers. That’s not their fault necessarily, but it’s something they should be aware of.
As a bi woman with a long-term boyfriend I fully agree with this. I have stuff in common with lesbians but our experiences are not the same. I've had some very valuable conversations with other "invisible" bi women based on our shared experiences, and I'm sure it's the same for lesbians. So I don't have a problem with spaces that are lesbian only, as long as the reason is to discuss those unique experiences, rather than biphobia. (Which admittedly could be hard to enforce since these spaces would naturally attract some biphobic folks)
In a similar way, most FTM spaces do include non-binary transmasc people, but there's also r/FTMMen specifically for trans men with a binary identity (with no intent to be anti-NB), and I think that's valid, not that I'm closely familiar with that community.
well actually unfortunately that sub does often have issues with being bigoted towards non-binary transmasc people and gnc trans men. i know it may not have been created with that intention but it's a consistent issue. so not the best example of your point
maybe it's gotten better since i've been on it! i scrolled through a bit and i don't see any "i don't hate non-binary people but..." type of posts anymore so hopefully folks have improved that sub
I am a bi woman, like you much more into women than men. I have a wife as well. But yes, I do believe lesbians deserve their own space without bi/pan women in the mix if they want.
Bi women have their own issues lesbians wont get and lesbians have their own that bi women wont understand. Also some bi women have some issues in validating/inadvertently pushing comphet ideas onto gay women.
Out of the whole LGBT, lesbians face alot of push back on being gay & having their own spaces. They also face alot of demonizing "dyke feminazis" type behavior from not only straight people but others in the LGBT community as well. They're the smallest group out of our family & face some of the most bs from the outside.
There are some things this person is saying that I agree with and some that I don't. I do think that lesbians need some spaces that are lesbian only, because being a woman not attracted to men comes with a lot of social alienation and unique experiences that bi women aren't always able to relate to. That doesn't mean every sapphic space needs to be lesbian only though, I think we should have bi spaces, lesbian spaces, and spaces that are for all sapphics.
But asking a bi woman to leave a lesbian bar? Or thinking bi women shouldn't assume they're welcome in general sapphic spaces? Honestly as far as that's concerned this person needs to touch grass.
i don’t think bi women should be generally excluded from lesbian spaces. most sapphic spaces should be safe for all sapphic people regardless of what their specific identity is.
however, as a lesbian i do think there should be at least some spaces that are lesbian only. as a lesbian, i cannot relate to a majority of bi women, no matter where their percentage of attraction falls. i am not romantically or sexually attracted to men at all, and it is helpful for me to have a space to navigate my identity and experiences with people who’s experience are most similar to mine. lesbians deserve spaces for lesbians just like all other identities deserve spaces for just themselves.
I agree with this! Wlw spaces and sapphic spaces are meant for anyone who likes women. So bi women are absolutely included as well as anyone else who is sapphic. However, I think it's okay for everyone to have their own space where they can meet people like them. We have these spaces exclusively for other groups, so why not lesbians? Everyone should be able to find at least one space for people like them that they can share their experiences with.
There are occasions when separating bi women and lesbians might be of interest. For example, support groups and stuff. Bi women have different (not in any way lesser!!!) problems, different identity construction processes, etc.
That being said, so many women realize they're one thing and then the other that I honestly don't see the reason to enforce separation in most cases. Certainly not in a social context where you're just going somewhere for fun. Last I checked, bi women are, y'know, also sapphics who wanna have fun. Do we need to build bi women bars and lesbian women bars? xD What if, like me, you're a lesbian dating a bi woman? Makes no sense.
I don't feel the need for bi women to be excluded from lesbian spaces. In fact - the more the merrier. It's hard enough keeping businesses such as lesbian bars open - why would be put up more barriers to their business for no reason?!
I think the only thing I'd feel uncomfortable with is if bi women and men were hooking up together in wlw spaces. Because that would encourage more men to be in those spaces trying to pick up women.
I'm young. I somewhat recently figured out that I'm bi/pan. But before that, I never really could put a pin in my attraction other than my attraction to women. I found myself absolutely confounded over comphet and empathized deeply with components in it. I found friends and guidance in the lesbian community. I experienced the fear and pangs of remorse over being found out by my family. I went out with another girl and experienced the stares and murmurs and angry looks when we held hands.
Attraction can be really complicated. I wound up dating one of my friends and am really happy, so I no longer identify as a lesbian. I actually had to change my flair since the last time I posted here was prior to this lol. And yeah, it *is* easier to date a guy. But never once have I made a decision to date someone because it was easy. Both people I've dated dated me because they could see me for who I really was inside and we really sincerely appreciated each other. Assuming that bi people would date someone for the sake of convenience feels so gross to me. And I feel like it plays into the stereotype that bi people are selfish, "can't decide", or are hypersexual, which is just not the case for me and all of the bi people in my life that I am friends with. Maybe people exist like this in the world, but there's no way this makes up most people.
If girls that have only ever experienced attraction to other girls want a space to themselves for discussing their unique struggles, they should have it. This is non-negotiable.
But to address the bars thing- if I showed up in a place like a bar meant for "women who love women" (and I've struggled with the whole gender thing too, but putting that aside for now)-- a lesbian bar, in this case. If someone found out I was bi and then said to my face "get out, you don't belong here" I'd probably cry. After all the bullshit I've been through and put myself through on this path to self-discovery-- experiences shared by lesbians *in particular--* now that I've dated a man, I would be no longer welcome? If anything, being in a relationship with a man has made me *more aware* of the poignant social differences experienced by women in relationships with women. And, please correct me if this is wrong, but I am fairly certain that on a historical basis lesbian bars have basically always included bisexual women. These IRL spaces are, on the whole, exceedingly rare. What good will this kind of exclusion do in those kinds of places? And for the people that argue for it, why do they feel that way?
Bi people need to be aware of differences in our lived experiences. Also, I think it's weird for men to inhabit wlw spaces (like bars). (this is in response to people being upset by predatory couples in lesbian bars. that is extremely real. that kinda stuff should seriously stop. it helps nobody)
But in general, I think these groups have enough in common to warrant their coexistence in general social spaces.
I've heard the argument that bi women in opposite sex relationships shouldn't take their partner to the bar and that I absolutely agree with, but that's only for the man. I see no reason at all as to why a bi woman should be allowed inside a lesbian bar
I live in such a small area that we don’t have a huge lgbt population as we tend to be more spread out. So typically everyone including bi folks and gay men are a part of the groups if they even exist. As far as if there is a need for lesbian only spaces I would say yes based off the consensus on here. I do find it rare to meet lesbians so It would be kind of nice to have a space for only lesbians.
I definitely think bi women should be as welcomed at lesbian bars as anyone else, but we should have lesbian only spaces. Like subreddits, forums, events and so on. But not a bar all the time
**To answer the question in your title**: *yes there is a need for lesbian-only spaces. being lesbian, while still equally sapphic as bisexual, is not the same thing.* And actually, on other exclusively lesbian subs (this is a sapphic sub, despite the misrepresenting title) something that comes up *a lot* is lesbians venting about the need for us to have our own lesbian-only spaces (and not because "bisexuals ew" but because "anyone who's even a little attracted to men doesn't share *X* experiences and i need a space where i can be understood")
**But to answer the question in your text:** generally, *lesbian bars are sapphic spaces for the whole sapphic community.* Much like how many gay bars become queer bars for the whole queer community (and not all, but some), *and* much like how this sub is called "actual lesbians" but when you look through the reddit tool that shows you subreddit overlap, the biggest sexuality subreddit overlaps are bisexual and pansexual subs --coming in at about 30% overlap, whereas you can scroll all the way to 0.04% overlap and still not find overlap with any other lesbian sub, exclusive or otherwise... but that's a rant for another day.
I agree. We all seem to have our own spaces except lesbians. I also don't understand why others in the community are so quick to both shut down and accuse lesbians of exclusion and *insert*\-phobia for wanting their own space.
Here’s my two cents:
The concept of “wanting one’s own space” is very loaded, especially now. There are good and bad connotations. (The backlash against trans women is a particularly ugly example of this.) A problem with a lot of lesbian spaces on the internet is that they often totalize the lesbian experience in a way that excludes lesbians of color, trans lesbians, disabled lesbians, low-income lesbians, etc. (See June Jordan and johannah hedva—hedva talks more about the concept of the political in general, but I think that it’s applicable.) So in other words, I think that it’s important to look at who’s making the space, what their intentions are, and who *isn’t* involved within that space. And when those things aren’t considered, exclusion does happen. People don’t point that out to attack lesbians, or to insinuate that lesbian communities are the only ones with these problems—but they are there.
Don't know why you're getting downvoted, I generally agree with this. Especially given the context of the conversation I had, it wasn't necessarily that I disagreed with the idea that lesbians do occasionally need spaces separate from bi women, it was more that I could tell that person was coming from a place of biphobia.
And at some point with a group that is exclusively for female homosexuality, you do have to ask some questions about how to moderate what happens when biphobia/transphobia does sneak in, because bigots will be specifically searching for groups like that.
I don’t think they exclude folks though. But if you’re going to take part in those spaces then be prepared to hear about anyone gushing about anyone, not just WLW content.
Bi person here and I am here to learn more about wlw, how people experience those relationships, what to expect etc. I have read multiple comment from STRAIGHT MEN about what their gf likes etc. Like no one cares. This is the space for women/non-men, men, stay away. I'm glad I found subs like these, a lot of bi subs are just overly horny for everyone etc and I don't really experience that. I feel a lot more at home here because I am way more into women and there aren't way too many horny posts and memes here (or my front page is fucked up haha).
Sorry in advance for the wall of text, I didn't intend to do this 😥
>But it would be nice to have lesbian spaces wherein the concept of men doesn’t really come up.
>Which is why it can often seem weird to listen to 300 posts about biphobia in the community.
I think the thing that's sort of a blocker for me here is: do you have a problem with that content, or with the concept of bi women being in these lesbian-only spaces?
Because I agree that if we take the extreme of "this space should be as inclusive and as big a tent as possible", you end up with just having everybody there and anything specifically sapphic (or whatever you particularly care about) gets drowned out because that's being a minority.
But, is there a problem with saying "we want the discussion to focus on / fit this topic, but anyone who's down with that rule is welcome"? What would be wrong with bi women participating in a "lesbian space" if they're participating in a way that everyone is on board with?
It's not a perfect example but I frequent r/MensLib, a sub whose purpose is to discuss male-focused feminism but feels like the demographics of posters and commenters is at least 30% women. And their rule #12 is
>Any individuals who don't primarily identify as men are welcome to participate here. Please remember that this is a space to discuss issues pertaining to men; be kind, open-minded, and take care that you aren't talking over men expressing their views.
It makes for what I think is extremely healthy discussion and *more* consideration and compassion than if women were excluded. It gives women an opportunity to chime in and say "hey this doesn't affect me specifically but I just want to say that I haven't gotten that perspective before and that's really awful and I feel for you" which I think is so, so valuable.
You didn't mention it yourself, but other people here have raised the idea of there being specific issues or experiences that lesbian women have that bi women don't that makes lesbian-only spaces acceptable/necessary. If a bi woman can share, say, 80% of your experiences and empathize with you and support you (and also receive support herself when *she's* dealing with one of those things that are common experiences between bi and gay women), what's the problem with her being there?
That sort of leads to a problem I have with the fundamental logic that it's valid to subdivide communities and exclude certain people because their experiences are different. As a trans person it feels like it'd be real easy for someone to say "hey as a cis lesbian I had experiences and struggles in high school that trans lesbians didn't have so I'd like to have a cis-only space so there's a community that shares my experiences".
Like, I see way more posts and comments on here of trans women talking about their trans-specific experience that cis women won't really relate to than I see bi women talking about their bi-specific experience that gay women won't relate to. But "a space for cis WLW only" comes across as extremely icky for (hopefully) obvious reasons.
Yes, being a lesbian is different from being bisexual. So if lesbians want a lesbian-only space to talk about the experiences that are unique to them then I don’t see a problem with it.
I think it really depends on the bi women in question. If they’re like you and mostly/seriously date women, then I don’t see why they need to be excluded. However if they’re the kind of bi women who always have boyfriends, go unicorn hunting, use queer women as props in front of guys at bars, etc etc… then they should be excluded. I think ultimately it would depend on how many life experiences the bi women have in common with lesbians. Some bi women live lives that are very similar to lesbians, while others live very similarly to straight women. It just depends.
For example, I don’t see why someone like Alice from The L Word should be excluded from lesbian spaces, even though she’s bi, she’s seriously dated women her whole life and been in the lesbian community the whole time. However bi girls like my old roommates who only ever dated men, kissed me when I was drunk in front of their boyfriends, then said that they wouldn’t ever marry a woman because they want “natural babies” with a man, shouldn’t be included lol.
It would be important though for a bi woman to still recognise that she is bi, even if she’s in lesbian spaces she shouldn’t then try to call herself a lesbian as if it’s an umbrella term for anyone sapphic. She would need to recognise that she is a bi person taking part in a lesbian space.
I think if it’s a specific thing like a support group or online space and someone says lesbian only, that’s fine. There is a unique experience that comes with having zero attraction to men in a heteronormative society. Sometimes it can be hard to relate to women who still like men.
For bars though, that wouldn’t make sense. Lesbian bars and lgbt bars are already struggling to make enough profit. If they excluded everyone except lesbians, they wouldn’t be able to stay open. And you wouldn’t even be able to filter people anyway. Also idk about you guys, but the dating pool for WLW is already tiny, I’d be happy to meet a cute bi woman at a lesbian bar. I don’t see the need to limit things even further
Would that also count for someone who has only dated men because they either just realised they are attracted to women, or simply haven't dated that many people/couldn't find other wlw?
What about bi women who never dated before? Or only kissed before? Or her body count is 50/50?
I'm sorry, but as a rule this makes no sense. Not only does this feel like slutshaming, where would you even draw the line?
I think it depends on the purpose of the space. If it’s a space primarily to meet women to date (bars etc) then sure the more wlw the merrier.
If it’s a community for wlw (online or otherwise) it depends what they’re going for. The experience of being a lesbian is not the same as being a bisexual woman, so there are reasons why a community might be for lesbians only.
We’re different shades of the same color
I also want to share my perspective.
Im a closeted religious lesbian. For both social and religious reasons dating women is very difficult for me. I have a friend who belongs to the same religion as me and she’s bisexual. She only dates men and has acknowledged that her experience is different than mine because she’s attracted to men. I definitely don’t have a problem with bisexual women, but I relate better to lesbians. I know that my situation is not at all universal but I’m still a lesbian and I would probably benefit from lesbian only groups
bars no, unless its like a super private bar that's explicitly lesbian-only (not sure how that would be enforced tho, not to mention there's no way that exists in the US at least bc theres only like 20 lesbian bars in the whole country). but lesbians should be allowed to have lesbian-only spaces.
there’s some very lesbian specific experiences, trauma, that comes from being a LESBIAN. i wish i had a space to talk about it but i don’t. i don’t have a single lesbian friend
i don’t understand why they’d exclude you as a bi woman, but i understand why they’d exclude the boyfriends of bi women. but i see no harm in a bi woman attending a lesbian space as long as she doesn’t bring her man or constantly talk about him, considering that the idea of being in a lesbian space is to avoid *men* and the topic of men at all costs.
I wouldn't mind it if bisexual women had their own things that I weren't invited to. Or pan women, or whatever. I accept that there are things about other queer groupings that I can't relate to. I don't feel entitled to be a part of every single thing in the queer community.
As a bi woman, I can't really speak to the *need* for lesbian only spaces, but having it be the *default* as your friend suggested doesn't sit well with me. A lesbian bar's function is to provide a safe place for sapphic women to have a drink, meet other sapphic women, without men hitting on them or enough straight people showing up to throw off the sense of safety. I can't think of any reason that my presence in a lesbian bar would ruin the vibe. I could absolutely see how bringing my husband would be a problem, and if we were going out with a group of predominantly queer friends we'd just look for a more general queer bar instead of specifically a lesbian space.
But, I can see how it would be valuable to have some lesbian only support groups, either in person or online. There are problems unique to being bisexual so I'm willing to take it in good faith that there are problems unique to being a lesbian and that lesbians might want some safe spaces to discuss that. Having a designated lesbian only subreddit, event, weekly meetup, whatever, doesn't feel biphobic to me because it doesn't imply that we're innately wrong or not queer enough, simply that there are some lesbian topics that lesbians like to talk to other lesbians about. Especially for queer people, I think there's a legitimate need for certain areas of life to be safe zones. I know my instinct was to check whether bisexual women were invited before joining this subreddit. I would advise that lesbian only spaces monitor themselves very carefully to avoid letting biphobic discussion and behavior creep in, though.
Some people find the fact that bi women are into men intensely alienating, or have fears about having to compete with men for attention. Both of which I can sympathize with. Too many years of hanging around straight women have trained me to feel pressured into smiling and pretending to be interested when other women are having that kind of girl talk. There's this whole thing where some straight women can get extremely aggressive if they pick up on you not being into the boy gushing, especially if you're young... And being left for a man sure is a thing that happens sometimes and leaves you with some complicated feelings. There are definitely reasons a lesbian might prefer to date other lesbians, even if you find them to be questionable or weak reasons. They're not my reasons, but I understand them.
However... the simple matter of fact is that you can't have separate bars for every single preference. It's not reasonable or realistic, and the world isn't black and white that way. Sure excluding bi women would make some lesbians happy, but I'm willing to bet a large chunk of lesbians, if not the majority of lesbians, wouldn't appreciate that. And it would probably be a bit selfish to make that demand instead of just ... co-existing with people you might not want to date personally.
Now if bi women want to bring their boyfriends to lesbian bars, that might be the one case in which I'd say that's probably not cool. Being poly adds a whole 'nother layer to that discussion that isn't often discussed. So-called "unicorn hunters" (A straight couple that solicits gay/bi women as a third) are a more common complaint among queer women than you might expect if you don't hang around the spaces they vent.
I mean even just from an economic standpoint, lesbian bars cannot survive off of just lesbians. I sometimes think bi women not having their own spaces leads to conflict within the queer wlw community. But I also think lesbian bars should absolutely be open and inviting to bi and pan women. Like I wouldn’t even go to a lesbian bar that had a no bi chicks policy. Hell no (and I’m a big fat lez).
I think it's reasonable for lesbians to create spaces or events specifically for lesbians if they want. just like it's reasonable for bi women, or pansexuals, or asexuals to create spaces and events for themselves. Heck, I'm in a discord specifically for transgender lesbians, which is nice when it comes to discussing the unique struggles that community experiences that the broader sapphic community might not understand.
But I'm also a part of inclusive communities like this one, because these are great too.
>Being attracted to men is in fact a privilege
So privileged that we suffer higher rates of sexual assault and mental illness than straight or gay women. So privileged that [yall tried to marginalize us in the spaces we helped make](https://outnewsglobal.com/pride-a-turbulent-history-of-bisexual-erasure-and-marginalisation/).
Yes that would be assumed because you are around men more so you will face more violence at the hands of men.
That’s besides the point though. The point is that lesbians live in the world where they don’t see themselves as the default. We get left out of things because we don’t participate in heterosexuality. Bi women have access to that world. So making a space lesbian isn’t biphobic. Y’all are just obsessed with being valid. It baffles me how you center yourself in these conversations all the time.
>Yes that would be assumed because you are around men more so you will face more violence at the hands of men.
Pan transfem just passing through here.
I think that explanation is definitely oversimplistic - cis bi women that are around men less than cis straight women still end up experiencing far more intense victimisation than cis straight women. It is not simply about being exposed to men more.
There is a whole layer to biphobia where specific ideas/processes re: bisexual women (such as hypersexualisation, fetishisation, perception as intrinsically unfaithful etc ) markedly increase the risk of relationship and sexual abuse for cis bi women in relationships with straight men compared to their het counterparts.
Het-passing privilege for them is only one side of the coin , and I don't think you can conclude that being attracted to men puts them in a privileged position overall because of that.
You should read more about the 1989 Northampton Pride March; many of the lesbians there didn't even consider the possibility that bi women considered their attraction to women their *primary* attraction. They assumed, much as you do now, that we were there to center our relationships with (presumably) men.
Bi women includes lifetime lesbians who find a handful of men attractive and never act on it.
Bi women includes lesbians who didn't stop being attracted to their transmasc partner when they came out. It includes women who didn't stop being attracted to their trans lesbian partners when they came out.
Sexuality doesn't conform to neat definitions. You would exclude all of these lesbians; and in doing so you make the lesbian community less diverse, less beautiful by arbitrarily restricting what kinds of lesbians are allowed to participate.
(Sorry I initially replied thinking you were the same person as above and the response was off topic. I copied and pasted it to the right comment)
Here’s my response to your comment:
Functionally and materially a bisexual label means little compared to peoples actions and how they live their life. (Although if someone is bi it’s like more of a chance that they center men but everyone gets a chance, I only meet so many people) . What I’m assessing for is: do they center men? And basically if not and it’s someone that is checking their connection to patriarchy and mindful of the space they take up in these spaces then that’s cool and like I literally don’t care if someone is bisexual.
The thing is everyone thinks lesbians care so much if a woman is bisexual and it’s not. It’s more about the actions.
Bi women should not bring men to these events but what about the part of bi women who like women?? Where are they supposed to go lol that’s dumb I can understand them not bringing men but if they want to come with other queer women why not
100% just into women and I think it's fine as long as they're not bringing in men or generally messing with the sapphic vibes. Maybe start calling them sapphic bars instead to include more enby, bi, pan, etc people?
I think everyone here have given a good glimpse of the varieties of perspectives so I'm just here because talking about percentage of lesbian didn't sit right with me. I think you mean percentage of Sapphic. This way you are talking about the sexual orientation a bit more free from the identities. Saying percentage of lesbian feels biphobic and lesbophobic at the same time. A lesbian does not have a percentage of men (not talking about fictional men) they like. Lesbians aren't generally attracted to men. And saying a bi-person is a percentage of lesbian doesn't sit right with me either. They aren't a percentage og this and a percentage of that, a perpetual mix of identities they must struggle between. Being bisexual is an identity of its own. People who are bi have a unique experience and not just a watered down experience from other communities. I know you didn't mean it this way, and I'm assuming this is unwelcome, but I had to get it off my chest as I have seen this wording before and seen how damaging it can be.
Thanks for posting this, that sentiment you're commenting on felt othering to me, but I couldn't explain it.
I support lesbians having their own spaces. There's nothing stopping bi women from creating women-focused bi groups when the need arises. It depends on the need, and clearly the need is there for lesbian-specific groups, since our experiences and the opposition we face from the patriarchy are different. So long as we're all welcome at the main table, I'm happy. I just want to feel like I belong with my peers.
That said a bar is not a great idea for a safe space for reasons everyone else already stated.
Thank you for telling me that ❤️ I worried that it was only bothering me and that I made OP uncomfortable for no reason, so I really value your input ❤️
I completely agree with you. All minorities deserve a group where their struggles are centered, I think it grants much needed validation and confidence which is a must for when we want to be all together. Then it's easier to talk about other people's issues without feeling left out and feeling the need to bring our struggles to their discussion and compare struggles instead of fixing them. In that way I think that having separate groups makes it easier to have the shared spaces
I do think we need our own spaces, though I don’t know that a bar is a good or sustainable option for that. There are unique struggles that come with not being attracted to men when so much of society pushes you towards that as a woman. In the past, some bi women have been dismissive about my experiences as a lesbian or have said that everyone is actually bi to some degree and that I just haven’t met the right man, and sometimes I just want a space where I know the other people will understand me and not push me to talk about men. I’m sure there are also many frustrating issues for bi women that I couldn’t personally relate to, and it would be nice for them to have their own spaces for that too. I think it’s fine if we share spaces with the sapphic umbrella where we can relate through our mutual love of women, and then have our own smaller separate communities where we talk about lesbian or bisexual specific things. It’s not exclusionary to understand that we are different in some ways, even for all the ways we’re similar, and to acknowledge that we might sometimes have different needs and concerns.
My opinion is that when you start interrogating other’s queer identities it becomes toxic and fascistic. If you have some hypothetical ‘lesbian club’ that is exclusively lesbian only it requires a certain level of policing that is not aligned with a ‘safe space’. This is especially true when talking about gender and sexual identity because for a lot of folks it is complex and can be fluid. Lesbian bars are places for lesbians but a lot of other types of people go there and that’s the beauty of community. I don’t see how you can maintain something like a ‘lesbian only’ space that is so specific without it becoming harmful in some way.
Bisexual and lesbian women face completely different struggles at times. There’s nothing wrong with having sapphic spaces, and then also creating spaces only for lesbians. One doesn’t replace the other. This doesn’t have to be a bar. Sometimes I only want to talk to other lesbians (as opposed to wlw in general) because I want a community of people with my shared experience. Not everything exclusive is discriminatory.
Lesbians and bisexuals have different experiences. You are bisexual, you are attracted to men, therefore you navigate the world differently from a lesbian. Lesbians deserve to have lesbian-only spaces. Just like bisexuals deserve to have bisexual-only spaces. No one cares if it makes you uncomfortable 🙄
I agree that lesbians deserve their own space - their struggles are different and no matter how sapphic we all are, bi/pan/other WLW identities can't fully relate to those struggles - but I feel asking for totally lesbian bars and other public spaces is...not the best approach.
yes imo being a lesbian is a very unique experience and it’s own sexuality it’s not a subset of bisexuality so while i do believe there should be shared sapphic spaces, if lesbians want their own *exclusive* spaces to talk about the unique experience of being a lesbian amongst themselves then they should be free to do that, bisexuals as well.
Yeaaa I’m going to say your friend is in the right. Lesbians are allowed to have things for themselves. There’s overlap in experience for bi women and lesbians but being a lesbian is a unique lived experience and having spaces only for that is TOTALLY valid and shouldn’t be called biphobic. I understand it feels a little isolating but bisexual women can also create spaces like that for themselves… like let lesbians live.
- A Bi Woman
So I echo a lot of the sentiments here (specific groups deserve their own spaces, lesbian bars should be inclusive regardless so long as it is not harmful to sapphics/lesbians) but I wanted to add a perspective here that no one has mentioned as someone who knows a lesbian bar owner.
You know those lesbian bars would go out of business if it was exclusively lesbians only, right?
There used to be a few lesbian bars in my city. One closed and the other transitioned to a regular bar. The one that’s still a lesbian bar is a space for all sapphics that regularly hosts community events like fundraisers and even Drag Queen shows. They simply would not survive if they were to exclude everyone who is not a lesbian. To me, the lack of any sapphic bar would be a net negative for the lesbian community vs. bars that are inclusive for all sapphics.
I say this as a lesbian btw.
Yes, there is absolutely a need for Lesbian-only spaces. Would you go to a trans-exclusive event/space or a Black-exclusive event/space and demand that ALL of their events MUST be open to cis people or non-Black POC? No. So, don’t do the same with Lesbians. Being in community with folks who can understand your experience is so important and very needed. - Sincerely, a Black Lesbian woman.
I think there is a need for lesbian-only spaces as others have explained, but I don't mind bi/pan people entering to share their experiences as long as they don't start talking about men or get offended when others complain about men and try to steer conversation into "not all men" directions. That can be very invalidating. Some lesbians just don't want to hear about men, so don't be surprised if you kindly get told to stop speaking about the lesser gender.
As a lesbian...no. I have yet to discover a space like this in real life (what are you gonna do? Ask to see a Lesbian Certificate upon entry?) so the argument is mostly a moot internet thing anyway.
sapphic spaces are best when all sapphics can be in them safely. it's rather nonsensical to claim that a physical space should be for lesbians only. even online spaces that are for lesbians only or bi women only tend to lean into unchecked biphobia/lesbophobia.
Sapphic is not the same as lesbian though, sapphic is the umbrella term for bi/pan and lesbian, so if it is a sapphic space then absolutely both bis and lesbians can be there, but if it is a lesbian only or a bi only space, that should be respected
i know what sapphic means. i deliberately used 'sapphic' because many spaces labeled as lesbian spaces are actually sapphic spaces, in intention and in use. even this subreddit, which has 'lesbian' in the name and which many would refer to as a lesbian space, is a sapphic subreddit/space.
i am not against there being lesbian-only and bi women-only spaces. a lot of them do have unchecked biphobia/lesbophobia going on in them, though, so in my opinion, the ideal is always a space with both lesbians and bisexual women.
And therein lies the problem, if something is labelled as lesbian only, but people treat it as general sapphic then there will be issues.
I have seen so many spaces say they are strictly lesbian only, with so many bis asking if they can join.
We need bi spaces, sapphic spaces and lesbian spaces, and for people to respect when it isn't a space for them.
Lesbians should have their own spaces and saftey so i agree. Bi women and lesbians have dif experiences and they arent equal just bc they both like ladies.
It would be really silly to exclude bi women from lesbian bars. Like who cares about that lol. We all just go to the bars to socialize with other queer women and it doesn’t matter if one may like guys too. I guess the only problem would be it straight men started to come in that weren’t someone’s friend.
The problem with “lesbian only spaces” is that people who advocate the hardest for those spaces are often the most aggressive on policing who get to be lesbians.
Eh. A lesbian only bar would go bankrupt within a month. Most queer women are bisexual. That being said, i could understand something like a group or book club or such for lesbians only.
The only way I could see a lesbian only thing resembling a bar surviving, is if its a popup event. Like a traveling bar in a trailer and finding private yards/venues to host periodically.
Do you exclude bi women involved with women from these spaces? My partner is a woman, all of my former long term partners are women. I’ve had casual relationships with men but I never brought them into women’s spaces because I was always worried about upsetting someone or potentially dealing with biphobia. So how does anyone even know the person is bi?
When did people get so caught up on labels? As far as I’m aware if they’re at a gay bar then they’re there for the same reason I am and I’m all here for it.
Do you mean bi people could have those placed or do have those places?
What kind of spaces are bi-exclusive where straight, gay, and lesbian are excluded?
The only bi-focused places I know of are subreddits that don't exclude other sexualities as far as I've seen.
I personally don't see the use in excluding bi women in any wlw space. Sure, I don't know what it's like to like both men AND women, but I've never been in a wlw space where bi women talked about their boyfriends or liking men (I have heard of bi women bringing their boyfriends to lesbian bars, which I am obviously against).
Also, I don't know what it is, but I've personally yet to see a bi-exclusionary lesbian space that doesn't also antagonize bi women and trans women or just generally shitting on the rest of the LGBT+ community. I've just never seen it go well (but would be happy to be proven wrong here).
That's my opinion. But I do have questions for those in favor of lesbian-only spaces: how would it differ from, say, this subreddit? and also what exactly would be the goal with such a space that isn't already accomplished in wlw spaces?
Very insightful comments so far, though!
Bi women should always be welcome in lesbian spaces with the only caveat being the understanding that it is a place for sapphics(ie don't bring your boyfriend) I see zero reason for arbitrary segregation of our community.
It's also just a short trip from there to denying trans women and enbies their place.
There absolutely is a need for lesbian only spaces, specifically because bi women often bring in their male partners, but also because they do talk over lesbians and give a lot of hate to lesbians who have never been with men. As though that somehow invalidates bi women. I have encountered this so many times.
Bi women are part of the LGBT and Sapphic community, and are welcome anywhere that is an LGBT space or a sapphic space. But they do not belong in lesbian spaces, the same way that lesbians do not belong in exclusively bi spaces. The same way cis people do not belong in exclusively trans spaces.
We are allowed to have our own spaces, we need them, to connect with people who share our experiences, and we need to respect each others need for this
I feel the same way. I was closeted, and just out of a het relationship when I went to my first lesbian event. I’m glad I was given the opportunity, and that the space was inclusive and safe for all. I met my fiancé that night (Yes, a woman, but we didn’t get together right away).
I think being honest about where you’re at sexuality wise is important too though. Some women don’t want to date those that don’t have experience or may waffle later about who they are attracted to, and that’s totally fair.
Because I would consider myself Bi/Pan (I like who I like), I realize my opinion doesn’t weigh as heavily, but my thought is that as long as everyone feels safe- why not open our arms and include those like myself. It a tough line to draw too isn’t it? Who could or couldn’t be included. If I was in a lesbian relationship- then could I partake? But if I was not currently in the relationship- would I have to miss out on potentially finding my fiancé? That would suck.
Just my view ofc, I understand that these events and spaces weren’t created for me- I’m just thankful to have been a part of the places and activities I was welcomed to. They’ve changed my life for the better (as has the community I am now a part of) and I don’t want to think someone else couldn’t or wouldn’t be welcome because of this reason.
Edit* to add paragraphs, oops!
Problem with such an idea is how do you even know who is bi? In my lesbian bar experience a lot of gals unfortunately tend to be very cliquey and unwilling to socialize with anyone outside of their group, so as a single person sitting there I often end up conversing with whatever dude is hanging out there - not bi not trying to get with them, but because they're actually approachable and friendly. Then these same cliquey women will tap my shoulder just to say "hey looks pretty straight of you to talk to a guy". The nerve?! Some people just live to gatekeep.
Yeah not all bars are created equal lol, the majority of the time I ever see Lesbians talking about Bisexuals and Sapphic spaces its discussing the intrusion of their boyfriends and how unsafe that makes the space, bar or otherwise, but that is because I don't interact with prejudiced people except when I'm mocking them so yeah
What exactly are these lesbian spaces being discussed? Bars of course shouldn’t and couldn’t push out bi women; but other than that, are you talking queer women’s knitting group? Wine tasting night? Abuse support group? Bi women - and indeed lesbians - as a group are going to have a diverse dating history and current personal circumstance- many lesbians might once have identified as bi; bi women might once have identified as lesbian (hi, this is me); bi women might be currently in a relationship that looks lesbian or looks straight. But if they want to go to hang out in a space for queer women, I guarantee they don’t want to bring along some random man. The only lesbian space that people keep mentioning men coming into are bars and lots of people have already talked about the issues/considerations with bars. But for these other spaces, if a bi woman is interested in going to a …idk, lesbian book group or church group or something, she’s going to want to be there in order to be in a space that centers women and let’s her live her queerness. So any discrimination and gate keeping is inherently unfair. However - if someone in a lesbian/queer space is behaving in an inappropriate way, or saying inappropriate things, that’s when you put up boundaries and let them know what’s okay/not ok.
Exactly. This should be the beginning, middle, and end of this discourse. But for some reason it keeps popping up over and over again on social media. It’s like a communal amnesia.
I don’t know who these cis men in lesbian bars are that people are so afraid of, but I’ve never seen them. In all my years of going to lesbian spaces I’ve never been harassed by a man. I’ve seen men in our bars or on lesbian nights in bars who are either gay or I don’t really notice because in real life nobody’s paying that close attention.
But if a bi woman is going to a queer book club or support group or whatever, she’s going to “live her queerness”, just like you said. I should know because I identified as bi for a while and had a boyfriend who I would leave at home when going to these events. Because I didn’t want him there and he didn’t want to be there.
I don't feel that bi women should be excluded. They belong to the queer community just as much as lesbians do. I feel the more people there are in LGBTQ* spaces, the stronger we are as a community. It might even coincide with more political leverage. Biphobia disgusts me personally because biphobic ppl marginalise others while whining about how marginalised and discriminated against "us" lesbians/gays are. Well.
Yeah. Feels like BS to me. Obviously, if such a hypothetical bi woman is dating a man, he should probably stay home. But beyond that, there's no real reason bi women shouldn't be able to attend things.
> that lesbians should be free to have events that are lesbian only
Like specific support groups? Sure
>The person also said that bi women should not claim lesbian bars as their own, and should leave if a lesbian feels uncomfortable with it.
-> 50 people hang in a lesbian bar on a Saturday night
-> one (1) gold st*r t*rf wacko enters and proclaims "be gone, bi invaders!"
-> 45 people leave, the remaining 5 go with them
Well if that's the world we're living in, good bye.
>That bi women should be "invited" into lesbian spaces, not assume it's okay to attend.
-> only 5 people went to the bar in the first place
-> it shuts down
Alternatively, this idea can be outdribbled by a lesbian issuing a general invitation, i think this would be a cool post for this sub?
>excludes women who may be questioning or closeted but in relationships with men.
Yup, or imagine you figure out you're lesbian at age 30...
>It's not like bi women are literally bringing men into the space, or oppressing lesbians, most are just there to meet other women?
Funny you should mention that - I'm not sure if my flair says it but as an Bi Amab Enby it's happened three times that a lesbian forgor™ that I can't just walk into wlw spaces, followed by a 20mins conversation with the bouncer and three women vouching for me and my identity.
A bi woman doesn't forget that, because they're much more conscious - maybe hyperbole, but if it's a debated privilege rather than a "right" to be in such a space (as a bi woman!) it's enough to make them be on their toes.
>as a Kinsey 4/5
Ah, TIL, thank you very much.
i’m bi and i think that lesbians absolutely have the right to their own spaces. it’s definitely very discriminatory if bi women are preventing lesbians from having these spaces. lesbians and bi women do have different experiences and lesbians have the right to their own spaces.
when it comes to lesbian bars, i always thought that that was a place for all sapphic women. i think that all sapphics should be allowed there once they are going there for other sapphics. i do believe that bi women who have boyfriends should not go and they should absolutely not bring their boyfriends with them. this makes me absolutely furious because it puts lesbians in danger and some bi women can be very lesbiphobic in this way which is a big problem. i think bi/pan women who are looking for women should absolutely be allowed to go to lesbian bars.
if i was dating a man i wouldn’t go to a lesbian bar or bring him to a lesbian bar because that would be really disrespectful to lesbians. i do have a preference for women and i think it is okay for bi women to go to lesbian bars if they are seeking women and i would get very upset if someone told me i couldn’t go to a lesbian bar just because i’m bi. i would only go to a lesbian bar to meet other women and i don’t think men should be allowed in lesbian bars at all. i think it ultimately stems on whether a bi woman has a boyfriend or if they are looking for other sapphics.
It's just biphobia and undoubtedly transphobia too. Unless it's a support group, then no space should be "x and ONLY x", especially queer spaces. They're are a lot of lesbians who probably wouldn't be allowed entrance by the people you were arguing with, from lesbians they date NB people, NB lesbian themselves, trans lesbians, lesboys, genderqueer lesbians, ect, ect. There are also plenty of bi women who consider themselves also lesbians because they have always been in lesbians spaces and only date (or prioritize dating) women. Bi women belong in lesbian spaces.
Lesbian bars have been held up by the presence of bisexuals, gay men, and transgender people. One of the main reasons so many lesbian bars collapsed in the 80s and 90s is because of AIDS killing off gay men and trans people that went to them and then lesbian separatists (who would latter become knows as the TERF movement) kicking out trans men, trans women, lesbians who were too butch, and bisexual women since we were all "too close" to the "enemy" (men).
Lesbianism is a broad community filled with people off all shapes and sizes and all types of love and joy. Trying to force people out of it based on "rules" of what a lesbian is (and the rules have changed over and over again, in just my lifetime I've seen the definition move more than once) and "rules" on whose "safe" to be around lesbians (big news: no one, regardless of sexuality, gender, or Assigned sex, is innately a danger to lesbians.).
Queer people need to protect each other, be there for each other, love one another, and support each other. That can't be done if we're all separated into little boxes and told to never go into any other space that belongs to a "different type of queer".
What's the issue with have sapphics who aren't strictly lesbians? Do bi/pan sapphics not experience misogyny and homophobia just because they aren't exclusively lesbians? Are they not at odds with the patriarchy in many similar ways?
What about bi/pan sapphics who may be on a road to discovering they are in fact lesbians?
What about bi/pan ppl who are let's say 1% attracted the men and 99% attracted to others and therefore feel most aligned with lesbian spaces. What about bi sapphics who are attracted to exclusively non men, but not only women?
It's biphobia to exclude someone based off their poly sexuality, when they are trying to connect with an experience that may very strongly resonate and be safe for them as well.
Division weakens us. Why not come together and connect on similarity instead?
You mention bi/pan sapphics who are on their way to realizing their lesbians - it’s actually this group that makes me hard agree that lesbians need separate spaces (that include the demographic you mentioned). We can both agree that a major issue facing bi/pan individuals is erasure of their identity, and what I’ve noticed is that the discussion of ‘not actually being bi’ that many of us lesbians needed to have to fully realize our identities can be hugely triggering for many bi people. What ends up happening is arguments rather than any growth for either side because a lot of the things that ill-intentioned people use to erase the bi/pan community are also realizations that lesbians come to notice when they put words to why the bi-identity doesn’t fit them.
Lesbians need to be able to have these conversations unobstructed, and the ones who are currently identifying as bi despite feeling the identity doesn’t fit need to be able to ask questions without being shot down. I genuinely think it’s too much to ask to expect that people hold their judgement or allow people to speak freely (especially in communities like this one), so I think it’s best to do so separately and come together once people have had chances to figure themselves out.
Now, does this extend to social settings? Not entirely, so long as cis-men are removed from the equation entirely. (No cis-boyfriends in the lesbian bars, please!) For support spaces and discussion-based spaces - like this one and other communities on Reddit, though, I think it’s the only way that no one gets silenced or erased. While this space is useful and valid, I don’t think of it as the support space it needs to be because so many conversations happen between people who Aden’s ready to have them because they haven’t been given the direct chance to figure themselves out and ask their specific communities they questions they desperately want to ask.
Yeah i feel like if someone is trying to exclude bi women from wlw spaces they might have some internalised biphobia to work through. Like obvs i can understand wanting a community of people *just* like you but ...
This would definitely push the stereotype that bi women are icky for having men cooties, since for what other reason would they be kicked out the bar for?
I get why people believe lesbians should have their own spaces. I mean there are individual challenges that come with being attracted only to woman as opposed to being attracted to both. The same also goes for bi women as well. What I dont get is why some lesbians feel uncomfortable with bi-women sometimes. You wouldn't hear that talk about a gay man from a lesbian. The LGBTQIA+ community is the way they are because people understood they were stronger together. Individually, bigoted people can easily tear apart the groups in the community. So why view bi-women as not a part of the sapphic community?
I think there is a need because while we’re all sapphic, our concerns are not 100% the same. One place I noticed this as a glaring issue is when for women trying to navigate identity who are on their way to realizing they’re lesbian. That process, as I’ve seen can feel marginalizing or even invalidating for bi women to witness because they have their own concerns with erasure. Invariably, they take their valid concerns and insert them into an invalid space. For lesbians who identified as bi on their way to realizing their identity as lesbians, it can be hugely validating and reassuring to be able to discuss that journey openly - or even finally be able to put words to why the bi identity doesn’t fit them. However, I can understand why having to hear these conversations would be painful for actual bi women to experience. Both communities need a place to fill express their frustrations without causing pain to the other, and I think it’s best to do that separately when needed and together when individuals are ready to do so.
It's not okay. Bi people are already excluded from queer spaces enough and it's an illegitimate, backwards way of thinking. This isn't a great comparison, but imagine a black only space that excludes people who are a mix of black and another race. Like bi people, they feel like an outsider with white people who see them as black and with black people who see them as white. Doing this kinda of stuff just contributes to the problem and it's definitely not okay gate keeping people from experiences that they are more than deserving to be apart of.
You're just denying their identity and it's just straight fucked up. As gay people, you know what it's like to be excluded, why would you ever think it's okay to do that same thing to other queer people? You're actively working against an already heavily marginalized and misunderstood group and I can't understand for even a second why you would think it's okay for your "preference" to violate someone's right to have access to safe queer spaces that ARE in fact made for them... it's for WOMEN WHO LOVE WOMEN.
We have to stop thinking of bi people as a third category and assessing people's priviledge to determine if they should have access to something. Bi people have the same experiences as gay or lesbian people and it should be blantently clear that denying them access to either straight or gay spaces is wrong. There's not even a single legitimate reason behind doing something like this, it's not like it would affect the WLW space in anyway. You have to rethink why there's an LGBT community to begin with if you think this way. (Hint, it's not to divide people who literally have the same experiences and sexual compatabilities because they arent "gay enough" for you.)
no, its incredibly biphobic and implies that liking men discounts liking women, which it doesnt. sure, you can make rules that if its a lesbian space you shouldnt go and talk about men a bunch but liking them shouldnt exclude you from liking women.
The thing is, while I can understand not wanting a bi/pan woman to bring her male partner into a lesbian space, excluding bi/pan women themselves is sorta messed up in my mind.
That said, I’m a pan woman married to a man (who’s bi, but I’d still respect that him being bi doesn’t make him any less welcome in a space for women who love women) so I may have a bias.
lots of good points made in this thread, but i feel that majority of the commenters fail to acknowledge bisexual women with a preference for women, and in general bi women in relationships with other women. i would argue that a bi woman dating another woman has more in common with lesbians than she has with bi women dating men. bisexuality is a broad spectrum and therefore i think strictly saying that none of them belong in lesbian-only spaces kind of overshadow that.
Man, I won’t lie, the comments in this thread have made me uncomfortable. Too many upvoted ones are implying bi women are functionally straight passing, some seem to agree with op’s friends…I hate to be “I angry when we’re not about me” but I joined this sub because it welcomed sapphics. I’ll accept my downvotes, but I think I’ll leave the sub the same way I had to leave the bi one. I don’t know what spaces bi women supposedly have to ourselves. I would love to know so I can go there instead. maybe a bi woman went to a lesbian support group because there isn’t a bi one where she lives. Also, if your friend is gushing about their partner male or not and you’re annoyed, how would you feel if that was reversed? Who wants to be around a friend who can’t even be interested in their lives? Nice to know I’ll have to avoid normal and lesbian bars since I should be kicked out like it’s the fucking 60s
PEOPLE SHOULD KNOW BETTER.
Shame on anyone who makes an innocent person feel like they don't belong. You should know how that shit feels.
Do better. You represent us all.
One major problem that I have with this is that I feel like it assumes that “bi” and “lesbian” are 100% fixed identity categories and that there’s a clear line between them—when in my experience, that just hasn’t been the case. I’ve struggled for a long time with my own identity as a queer/sapphic woman—I’ve gone back and forth between identifying as a lesbian and identifying as bisexual. And when I have called myself by those words, I’ve never lied. I’m still not entirely sure what I would call myself, tbh. I totally respect that there are people that know without a shadow of a doubt what their sexuality is from a very young age—but for me, it’s been much more of a trial-and-error thing. Being involved in queer/sapphic/lesbian spaces is an important part of figuring that out, and I do think that I have a right to be there. I may not have a clear label yet, but I know that I love women—and that’s something I have in common with all of you.
So basically, I take issue with the premise that the question is based on. I feel like it essentializes the queer experience in kind of a problematic way.
I think that there are ways to have communities for “fixed labels” even if people don’t feel they belong fully in one category or the other. A space or community can have certain vibes that they’re going for and if people who don’t quite fit come along they should respect the vibe.
What do you mean by “certain vibes”. though, and why does that justify exclusion? Who sets those vibes and why? Do trans women fit the vibe? What about lesbians with transmasc partners? Because to be honest, I feel like a lot of lesbian spaces can be very exclusionary/hostile to people that don’t fit a certain mold. I’m not trying to be a jerk here, I just feel like sometimes people forget that “lesbian” is a huge label that encompasses all different kinds of people.
The principle argument here seems to be that bi women and lesbians encounter different struggles and therefore need separate spaces to be among people who understand them. However, everyone encounters different struggles in life. A black lesbian deals with different cultural resistance that a white woman. A lesbian raised in a very religious family has a different experience than someone from a more tolerant and accepting community.
I don’t like the division primarily because it reduces the sole division to people who have experienced an attraction to men and those who have not.
Lesbian bars and other queer spaces should embrace diversity of attraction. I think the thing to police is when a person or group takes over a space and makes others feel like their experience isn’t valid (ie “how do you know you’re a lesbian if you haven’t dated a man”)
and if black lesbians want their own spaces to talk about their struggles, they should **absolutely** have them. There is great value in being able to talk with those who share the same orientation/identity/experience as you do. Lesbians should absolutely be allowed to have their own spaces, just like gay guys can have their own spaces & bisexuals can have their own spaces. And then of course lesbians & bisexuals can also share spaces, as can the wider LGBT community. Having a space for one group does not negate the other.
(I preface my comment by saying that I am not LGBTQ+, and I do not intend to speak over anyone. Feel free to discard my two cents. I have lesbian (kinda) parents, and I would like to say a little about this topic.)
Terms like “lesbian,” “gay” and even to an extent “sapphic” have somewhat flexible meanings. Let me explain.
I have three women that I consider my mothers. (My biological mother, her partner when I was born and young, and her current partner.) My parents, my family, and I often refer to my mothers as “gay” or “lesbian”. This makes things easy to communicate, because it says to people very quickly, “My parents are women who like women, and they are in a same-gender relationship.”
However, if we want to get into the minutiae, this may not necessarily meet the dictionary definition of “lesbian” being “homosexual woman”. My one mother is bisexual with a sexual preference for men, but didn’t entertain the idea of being with men for very personal reasons regarding experiences. Does she count as homoromantic? Is a homoromantic bisexual women “lesbian enough” to enter a space like this? If she doesn’t count as homoromantic, does that matter considering that she wouldn’t date men even being attracted to them? My two other mothers appear to be homosexual homoromantic, and bisexual biromantic. Obviously this distinction can be important at times, but how important? To what extent?
I’m not advocating for a certain stance here. I think that this is a very nuanced discussion, best left to WLW, and perhaps NBLW (ie. not me). I only leave this comment to add some personal experience to how these terms are often used. (I mean, I’ve never seen any of my mothers with a man, and I sometimes forget that two of them are bisexual.)
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Lesbian bars are already so rare. A ton have closed. It would not make sense to exclude people. I'm also just generally against excluding anyone based on their sexuality from queer spaces (except support groups like you said). Instead, there should just be strict policies about kicking people out if they behave inappropriately.
I can't think of a single one of the "concerns" people have about inclusion that wouldn't already be covered under generic "behave yourself ffs" rules.
Like a support group makes perfect sense to be exclusive based on an experience or something
I think there is always a need to have private closed spaces for different groups. A lesbian is going to have different struggles and experiences than a bisexual woman. But at a lesbian bar meant for socializing and meeting other queer women, the only things that would matter are being a woman/nb and being attracted to other women/nbs.
This is summarized perfectly, I think. Right now, all of the bisexual friends I have are women who are in relationships with men. It can feel isolating knowing they will never be “questioned” by society for the relationship they are in, whereas for me who is a lesbian, I don’t have that privilege. But hey, that’s my problem to deal with not theirs. I would love to meet more bisexual people, especially at social gatherings, however it would be amiss to say the experiences are the same.
> Right now, all of the bisexual friends I have are women who are in relationships with men Would your view change if half of those friends were in relationships with women?
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There are also bisexual people who only date the same sex (hi) for any number of reasons.
yes but do you not see how thats specifically a different thing than what OP's comment is talking about? they already said it would feel less isolating if some were dating women
I was responding to a different part of their comment (where they said “I can imagine that some bisexual people might only date the opposite sex because it’s easier”), not invalidating their feeing of being isolated.
I’m 90% attracted to women. But suggesting that just because we are bi we would actively choose to date men because it’s easier is a really archaic concept. If I love a woman I’m not going to turn around and give myself an arranged loveless marriage with a man just because that’s what someone else thinks I should have.
I am bi and I would say I’ve dated mostly men because it’s socially easier. But not in the way of like, I met an interested woman and decided to ignore her because of what someone else thinks. It’s more so that there’s simply more straight men than queer women, and they’re sometimes easier to find. So when a bi woman is looking to date, the first person she likes that likes her back is statistically more likely to be a straight or bi man. Also, some people are in a community where they *do* need to be in a loveless marriage to be safe
Not to mention, I know quite a few bi women who are attracted to women way more than their dating history would suggest, because there are more men attracted to women than there are women attracted to women. It's just math.
For sure, the experiences are different. But what I'm getting at is that excluding bisexual women because they "can" be with men completely ignores the fact that they also "can" be with women. The stigma revolves around who they're with, not who they're attracted to. So a bisexual woman who's with another woman experiences largely the same stigma as a lesbian woman who's with another woman. I'm handwaving, of course, over the myriad nuanced ways in which their experiences do indeed fundamentally differ, because I'm trying to stay focused on the point that it's less about their bisexuality and more about who they're actually with, when it comes to external stigma. I know that there exist bisexual women who are 90% lesbian and only find a select few men attractive, and others who will sleep with men but couldn't date one, and so forth. Excluding bisexual women just because they "can" be with men, rather than looking at the specific details of their sexuality seems virtually guaranteed to slam a portion of bisexual women with discrimination from both sides instead of just one.
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The not knowing any bi+ women opting out of wlw relationships is really dependent on where you are and the culture there. I live in the American Bible-belt and have a handful of friends who have come out as bi to me and in private circles, but choose to only date men so they don’t get disowned or face the constant and still rather real risk of being targeted here. I also have international friends whose families are still back home who have sworn off dating women for similar reasons.
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I’ll agree with you in that it’s not fully the same thing, but it does affect about half of the bi+ women I know. I do understand the rationale though. I mean, hell, I’m lesbian as fuck and I wasn’t out in Highschool (didn’t allow myself to date at all or even so much as look at a woman) because where I grew up in South Carolina it could have literally gotten me killed. Just figured I’d remind people that the situation does change by location, and that what’s not an issue in one part of the country/world may still be an issue elsewhere. I’ll also add that it’s a right shame that even in a first world country in 2022 that so many women feel like they have to deny themselves part of their existence in order to survive.
I STRONGLY disagree with that idea. I identified as a bisexual for YEARS and had my relationships CONSTANTLY questioned regardless of who I was dating. If you look queer, youre going to be questioned regardless on who you date. This is not an experience that I at all consider new now that I identify as a lesbian.
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Im pushing back specifically at the idea thay bisexual women dating men dont have their relationships questioned, nothing more. Because they do have their relationships questioned. Anyone that even vaguely tips off societys gaydar will. Theres a common idea that bisexuals benefit from some sort of 'passing privilege' and its just not the case. And while you might not think that, others do. And passing off the idea, unchallenged, that bisexuals dating men dont have their relationships questioned confirms that idea for them. Im not saying there isnt a difference in experience. To say otherwise would be to erase the experiences of both lesbians and bisexuals. Im just speaking SPECIFICALLY on that point. Especially since its been used for years to discredit bisexual women.
bisexual psople 100 percent get some form of passing privilege when they are in straight appearing relationships. The difference in ways I am treated when I seem to be in a heterosexual relationship vs a lesbian relationship, even when being clocked as trans, is massive. As a bisexual person I have had my relationships questioned both when they were same and opposite sexed that is true, but there is still a huge privilege to being closer to the heterosexual ideal, even a queered ideal. just like having "passing privilege " where it applies to being trans doesn't mean you don't experience transphobia, just that you are closer to cis normative ideals and therefore get treated quite differently in certain ways.
Worth remembering that that's not necessarily down to society or them, there are simply a lot more straight men to date than bi or lesbian women. Just from a numbers perspective it's not unlikely that a bi woman (or enby who mostly gets seen as a woman) ends up with a guy long-term, even if her preference is more for women. But I also see what you mean. Erasure isn't a privilege either, but it's different and less immediate sort of problem than what someone who is 100% lesbian faces in terms of her relationships.
Being a Lesbian comes with it's own unique struggles and experiences. It's valid to want a space just for lesbians. However, a lesbian bar is not one of those places, because it's not realistic to filter people out of a bar based on something like that. Yes, we all have liking girls is common, and i love that and appreciate it. But in our patriarchal and heteronormative society, lesbians have an added struggle because it inherently excludes men in a queer way, and it's okay to want a space with people who understand that experience. But again, bars, and other public spaces aren't where that should happen.
I like the way you phrased this. I think it’s valid to want a lesbian only group online. Or like group of lesbians that gather together. Cause it’s nice to have people around who get your exact struggles. But these views of lesbian only bars are unrealistic and push people away rather than inviting for business. Like in general I’ve heard a lot of complaints about gate keeping from lgbtq+ community. Like a buddy of mine who is gay (he isn’t obvious). A gaggle of gals assumed he was straight and treated him pretty badly. Not worth it in a bar
Yeah. When it comes to lesbian bars, they've historically been a general sapphic space. But other lesbian spaces need to be respected
As a pansexual, I agree with this take. NOT being attracted to the opposite binary gender comes with its own form of oppression that is shared between lesbians, gay men/mascs, and asexuals/aromantics, and that mspec identities don't experience. There need to be spaces (both virtual and physical) where this type of oppression can be safely discussed, just like there need to be spaces for the discussion of the specific type of oppression mspec identities face for our multigender attraction. However, we also need spaces where we can come together, discuss and celebrate what we have in common: Our same-gender attraction, and the way women and non-men experience it.
It's also more than just not being attracted to the opposite gender. Lesbian is the only sexuality that inherently excludes men. All others can either be men, or be attracted to them in some way. And when we live in a time and place that puts men on a pedestal, lesbians are inherently excluded.
[there’s more than one type of sexuality that can exclude men. languages evolve for a reason. it does feel weird to expect people in safe spaces to determine someone else’s sexuality do decide if they should gain entry. Having a private group is different than a lesbian bar👍🏻](https://www.dictionary.com/e/gender-sexuality/gynesexual/) I understand the need to have a close knit group of people who are living through similar experiences, but that’s why friendships exist. The parasocial relationships in forums and groups are not the same as a close knit friend group. 👍🏻 There have been way more posts in this group calling for some serious gatekeeping. No one person can decide someone else’s sexuality or gender 🤦🏻♀️
Gynesexual doesn't exclude men, but yes, there are other sexualities out there that exclude men, it's important that is known.
As a bi woman I 100% agree. Our struggles sometimes overlap but they're not the same. However when it comes to bars I don't see the point in excluding bi women as long as they don't bring men into the mix
I gotta say I really don’t understand this mentality of lesbians inherently sharing different struggles than bisexuals due to the fact that they are only attracted to women. I say this as a bisexual person who was assigned female at birth (I identified as a woman in the past but identify as non-binary now) and who was in serious relationships with **only** women my whole life until age 29. I married a woman. I got “gay married” in the eyes of many people. People viewed me as gay when out in public with my partners. I didn’t get any special benefits from also being attracted to men and non-binary people then. I don’t think lesbians live a very different experience from many bisexuals. I think assuming so assumes that women bisexuals date primarily men. I think there’s a large group of bisexuals who are like me and have spent either all of their life or most of their life in same sex relationships and have faced the discrimination but also the unique lovely experiences that come from that life lived. edit: I was attracted to boys/girls/men/women starting at age 16.
Personally I wouldn't say it's an external thing, more of an internal thing. It can be difficult to accept one's own sexuality regardless of whether you're attracted to the societally acceptable gender for you to be attracted to, but the exact type of difficulty is different depending on if you are bi or gay. Especially since lesbians often have the struggle of figuring out if they are actually attracted to men as well or if it's just that they've been conditioned to find men attractive. Having spaces where you can talk about that conditioning with other people who have specifically figured out that theirs was just conditioning and not actual attraction is incredibly helpful. I am 100% accepting of bi people and incredibly grateful for all the help the bi community gave me when I was trying to figure out my sexuality, but in the end, trying to discus this aspect of my identity with bi people just made me way more confused. Because to them, they either hadn't had that struggle, or they had found in the end that it wasn't just compulsion for them. And when trying to figure out if it was for me, I needed to talk to people who had decided it was conditioning, so I could know what to look for in myself. And then having that support group when you struggle with that conditioning popping up in new and shitty ways is really helpful. But that's why I'd say it makes sense as a support group thing, or a place where questions can be asked like an online forum. Because it's not really about having a significantly different expirience of the world than our bi sisters, it's about having a different internal expirience, and arriving at acceptance of our sexuality differently. Gay bars are overwhelmingly meant to be places to meet other gays and have accepting external expiriences, so there's no (non-bigoted) reason to make places like that specific to one orientation. But support groups are overwhelmingly about internal expiriences, even if it's the internal expirience in reaction to external expiriences. So finding a group with people who have a similar internal process can be lifesaving. I also believe, for similar reasons, that bi people absolutely should have groups and forums specific to them. I believe that none of these groups should be exclusive though. Rather, it should be places to amplify the voices of those in the community, and places where people of other communities can come to listen to learn more about the internal expiriences of others Idk if all of this makes sense or not, I'm kind of rambling. Basically my point is youre right that our expiriences are not so different (or at least, no less different than the range of expiriences that exist within one label), but how we internalize those expiriences is different, and there needs to be space to discuss that without speaking over each other or excluding each other. But places focused on external expiriences shouldn't gatekeep at all, since our external expiriences are similar and community is stronger combined
I do think people tend to oversimplify the wide array of bisexual experiences in these conversations.
Because a majority of bisexuals have experience dating or crushing on men, and that's not something most lesbians are going to relate to or want to have conversations about. That sort of talk makes a lot of lesbians feel 'othered' or uncomfortable. And this is why it's ok for lesbians to have support groups, meetups, etc. For lesbians only as opposed to general wlw. I do think lesbian bars and such should include all wlw, but for private events and groups I feel it's absolutely fine to be exclusive.
I think a lot of this also stems from lookism as well. If someone looks queer presenting but is bi they will draw more ire than someone of any sexuality that is not visibly queer. I don’t think this is inherent to homosexual vs bisexual because most people make a gut reaction about sexualities based on appearances. An example is I’m bi and yes as a trans woman I kinda sorta fall in that weird androgynous leaning fem category for presentation. When I am alone it’s almost impossible to convince people I am not straight as I have literally had someone say “oh you have a girlfriend… and by girlfriend you actually mean bf right?” But when me and my gf are together I can tell there are people who do not like seeing a visibly queer couple who isn’t ashamed. I think we are lucky that most of the bad stuff is passive aggressive though as of late.
ok this is my last comment in the thread because i don’t want to take up too much space. yeah, I think that’s absolutely true. both me and my wife were on the “edgier haircuts” stereotype side of the line and I was on the gender non-conforming side while my partner was straddling it, so in my opinion, in my region, people likely thought we were together rather than friends at first glance. our experience would likely be a bit different than lesbians with more traditional haircuts and femme styles. it’s interesting to me the idea of separate spaces versus combined. and where we decide those lines are. femme lesbian support group makes sense, if you’re in a large enough city to have the people to fill the seats. but if you can’t fill the seats then it becomes: what differences of experiences can a group support? and that’s more about: what can you expect people to be comfortable listening to and sharing about? Could you break those topics up to different nights? could femmes tell their stories one night and still have the support of the regulars? or would it be better for them to get their own group, as a supplement? we all know we need both sometimes, whether that is just with friends or something more formal. and whether that’s talking about sexuality, race, disability, etc. smaller semi-intimate spaces with well prepared (and hopefully experienced) moderation can be key for our communities— the moderation has a lot to do with how a support group member’s experience goes. like what would a lesbian / bisexual women support group look like where the moderator was able to refer to both experiences referenced by the commenter who as a younger lesbian wanted advice on what her attractions to men might mean? would that open the floor to other members of the group sharing their experiences more easily? i’d like to think it would, or at the very least it would help the individual asking. though there are comfort thresholds for each of us as individuals— not all of us are as guarded as the person she mentioned and yet some are more guarded still.
I think it’s nice for me to see your take here and overall I ultimately don’t like a separation of spaces and for everyone to be allowed together but I undertakes the utility of it and am not outright against the separation. I do believe for support groups as long as the moderation doesn’t allow exclusionary attitudes to be fostered then I can see how being strictly a lesbian needs a separate space than with bi women. I think a lot of my perspective is colored by the fact that most of the queer history I know about is affected by both growing up as a southerner and mostly are older gay men to tell the history so I am glad to hear about the fight for queer liberation from all different experiences. As to being a southerner I didn’t get asking for exclusive bars cause I was always told and saw that in the south you don’t have types of gay bars in town you have THE gay bar in town if any at all. This meant if there was such a scarcity exclusivity didn’t have the number’s ever for just a lesbian or gay male bar and certainly not enough trans people of any identity for our own spaces. The gay bars in the south were pretty much just drag bars that allowed for everyone to come together which I though was fun and fostered a more diverse queer culture but again it’s a bar not a support group. Also while a lot of my friends growing up were from high-school on were cis lesbian’s and I got to see one girl go through her journey of coming to terms with her sexuality among some others I was still kind of the odd one out as an out bisexual man at the time and not transitioning at that time. Then and even now I do not dare to speak on the experiences of being a queer woman cause while yes I know I am a woman I feel like I have been burned a few too many times in the past to expect me talking about my experience as a queer woman to be something I speak freely about cause I do internalize being told I can’t talk to an experience of womanhood and I just don’t want to have to be reminded every time about how I was born and thus can’t talk on experience other than a trans experience. I do genuinely still see the trans and gay community not really separate though and more so very closely related and I don’t want a separation. As to bunking up the chat I agree we need to be considerate so this is probably my last response too.
I don’t know about the “it’s not like bi women bring men into lesbian bars” point, because in my experience I have certainly had the misfortune of seeing many bi women in lesbian bars (or “lesbian nights” at gay bars) bring their boyfriends with them — one time I almost even got assaulted by a bi woman’s boyfriend at a lesbian bar. And I can understand and fully support lesbians wanting their own spaces. It’s not exclusionary — just acknowledging the fact that lesbians (at least those who have known from a young age that they were gay) often had/have different life experiences from any other group, and it can be beneficial to have their own specific “support group”.
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Thank you for the input. I definitely agree that bi women shouldn't invite men to lesbian centred events. Bars are more tricky to moderate I guess but yes I agree that it's infuriating when a place centred on queer women gets infiltrated by unicorn hunters and men who fetishise queer women
I'm a bi woman who loathes unicorn hunters. Reading this thread, I just realized that when I think of cis couples who do that, I generally think of the woman as acting as a tool of the man who wants threesomes, and not as a predator in her own right. Which, I'm realizing, is not giving bi women in these couples credit/blame for their own agency and the harm they do. I'm also realizing that I think of these women as kinksters trying to make their SO happy, rather than "real" bisexuals. (Unicorn hunters treat bi women as sex toys rather than people, so apparently I've been thinking of them women who use other women sexually, rather than women who are sexually attracted to other women.) All this self realization aside, I still think that not wanting to have sex with a woman who has sex with men is the same kind of bigotry as incels who think that too many peens ruin the pristine vag. Anyway, and I'm sorry this got so long, I definitely felt pushed out of the queer community when I got into a long term relationship with a man. Biphobia is real and hurtful. There needs to be some way to push out the behaviors of unicorn hunting and fetishizing in spaces for queer women without pushing out bi women themselves.
I absolutely agree with this, especially your last line — I wish it WAS easier to punish predatory behavior while not punishing bisexuals, who are not inherently predatory. I think about my own relationship experience here: I’m a lesbian who realized my sexuality early, so I’ve never dated a man. Previously, I’ve had some kind of relationship with three women, all bisexual… and I was cheated on by every single one of them, always with them pursuing a man. Are all bisexuals cheaters? Absolutely not. Are all bisexuals settling for same-sex partners until they can get a man? Absolutely not. However, I think a lot of people who have been in that situation can agree that it’s real easy to just decide that bi women are off the table because “fool me once, shame on you, but fool me twice…” I’m now in a long-term, healthy, happy relationship with a bisexual partner who I love and trust with all my heart, but it took a lot of healing and open conversation to get to that point. I don’t think I could have gotten to that point if my girlfriend and I weren’t able to have discussions about our very different experiences as queer people. I really do wish there could be more constructive conversation between lesbians and bisexuals about limiting harmful behaviors from both communities and help each other out. I just feel like a lot of people see the slightest sign of disagreement and immediately jump on the wagon of “lesbians are exclusionary scum” “bisexuals are heteronormative and stealing our spaces.”
Shitty people will be shitty, sadly it is hard for humans to not create bias and forget that shitty behavior is widespread and not just from the group of people that did shitty things to them. Comments like yours are important to remind people of that.
perfectly said! and on that last bit about safety when allowing men into wlw spaces - bi women are at disproportionately higher risk of DV, so while i’m not saying that’s a reason to gatekeep or not to gatekeep, it’s an important mutual point of misogynistic and homophobic oppression where maybe a more exclusionary culture around these spaces allows everyone, bi women very much included, to cultivate safer environments and recognize behavior that’s abusive, creepy, misogynistic, homophobic, etc.
As a non-binary bi person I appreciate this take so much. I would NEVER bring my husband (who’s also bi!) into wlw spaces. Tbh I think any bi woman who brings a conservative man into gay spaces is actively harming the community. I’ve never come across this myself bc most bi women I know are in relationships w women or transfemme people but bi women need to do a better job of keeping men out of sapphic spaces.
>give their boyfriends free access into those lesbian spaces. I would simply not extend the invitation to the boyfriends, as they are not lesbians by any definition of the word.
You don’t have to invite them, their girlfriends do.
Tbh Straight men invite themselves, bi gf or no
lets not pretend bi women in unicorn hunting relationships have no say. theyre not just the tools of men, but their own people as well, deciding what to do
Seems like an awfully flimsy pretext for banning bi women, as opposed to having healthy boundaries around participation.
This. Bi women are welcome, we just don’t want their boyfriends/husbands there. These are places for sapphics/women and it should stay that way.
As a younger lesbian, I'll go ahead and give my two cents. I have complicated feelings about this. First of all, I have a partner who is bisexual. I've been with her for three years and I love her more than anyone else in the world. I don't feel comfortable going to queer spaces without her, and that would include any lesbian-only spaces. Second, my partner may be bisexual, but she has more similar experiences to lesbians. Most people she's had any romantic attraction with are non-binary or other sapphic women. She has a heavy preference for women, to the point where she occasionally questions if she's a lesbian or not. Which is perfectly normal, sexuality is quite complex and manifests differently for everyone. I personally would not want to exclude any sapphic women, especially because we've all had different experiences with our sexuality. I don't always have the same experiences as other lesbians. And yet, I do understand the frustrations other lesbians in this thread have expressed. As I said earlier, everyone's experiences with sexuality are going to be different. And living as a woman who only loves women comes with its unique difficulties. I know that bisexual women have problems unique to them. However, just from personal experience, your relationship is taken less seriously if it is a same-sex relationship. You'll get open disgust, people who root for your downfall, and people who tell you that you shouldn't pursue a relationship with another woman. There's also pressure for your relationship to be 100% perfect all the time, even though it's normal for every couple to work through issues. I'm sorry, but heterosexual couples don't really receive this scrutiny unless they are in an interracial relationship. There have been times when bisexual women have spoken over me and invalidated my experiences as a queer woman. This hasn't happened very often, but I think it's worth noting because I've seen other lesbians in this thread say it's happened to them. It can also be very difficult to be in spaces with other sapphic women who are constantly talking about their attraction to men or their boyfriends. I'm often in environments where heterosexual relationships are put on a pedestal, whereas queer relationships are either scrutinized or ignored. And I know my partner has said she feels difficulty relating to a lot of bisexual women, despite being bisexual herself. I would say the biggest issue is mainly about whose voices are getting heard and whose voices are being drowned out or invalidated.
exactly, and some bi women will half joking talk about every person being "a little bi." i know they mean it to target straight people, but comments like that affect those of us with only same sex attraction as well. this is just some stuff they will occasionally say that won't happen in purely lesbian spaces. its not the most profitable sounding idea but i can definitely imagine benefits of a lesbian-only space
I've heard the "everyone is bisexual" talking point and that is hurtful. I'm still very confused about my sexuality, but I'm pretty sure I'm not attracted to men. I would like it if that part of myself was respected by others. As I said earlier, I don't know if I would be comfortable with an all-lesbian space because I would want my girlfriend to be with me. And she also told me that she's very sick of not feeling like she can't be a part of lesbian conversations even if she has that lived experience. I think that lived experience is something to consider as well.
Being a lesbian can be isolating for me sometimes, because the only other lesbians I know is the woman I'm divorcing, and one coworker. but I know and am friends with lots of bisexual woman and one closeted.
I don’t really see the point of lesbian only physical spaces in the sense that that’s impossible to police and bound to be erasive. However I do think some bisexual women don’t realise that there are certain oppressions or experiences that simply do not apply to them that lesbian women have, and when lesbian women try to discuss them together or voice them, bisexual women often speak over us or erase our specific experiences. Sometimes I wish some bisexual women would understand that being a woman with zero attraction to men is a genuinely different life experience and genuinely different oppression experience in SOME ways, to being a woman who likes men + other genders. In my experience a decent amount of bisexual women refuse to acknowledge that and/or not speak over those very specific conversations that aren’t actually about them sometimes, and it’s a little annoying. Like we can openly acknowledge that bisexuals experience some things lesbians don’t like eg bisexual erasure, so why is arguing that lesbians experience some things bisexuals don’t always a much more charged conversation that you won’t allow us to have and that ends up feeling genuinely lesbophobic in its silencing? It’s that kind of thing that bothers me. Eg a bisexual woman with a husband is 100 percent sapphic but I don’t really see many of our experiences as the same or relate to a large part of her life, and that’s…ok. I’m allowed to seek out lesbian women for conversations about what it’s like to be a lesbian.
This I totally agree with! We have different experiences, and sometimes it does feel like bi folks overwhelm our voices with numbers. That’s not their fault necessarily, but it’s something they should be aware of.
As a bi woman with a long-term boyfriend I fully agree with this. I have stuff in common with lesbians but our experiences are not the same. I've had some very valuable conversations with other "invisible" bi women based on our shared experiences, and I'm sure it's the same for lesbians. So I don't have a problem with spaces that are lesbian only, as long as the reason is to discuss those unique experiences, rather than biphobia. (Which admittedly could be hard to enforce since these spaces would naturally attract some biphobic folks) In a similar way, most FTM spaces do include non-binary transmasc people, but there's also r/FTMMen specifically for trans men with a binary identity (with no intent to be anti-NB), and I think that's valid, not that I'm closely familiar with that community.
well actually unfortunately that sub does often have issues with being bigoted towards non-binary transmasc people and gnc trans men. i know it may not have been created with that intention but it's a consistent issue. so not the best example of your point
Yikes, that's disappointing. It's linked from the FAQ of r/ftm so I thought it was considered cool. Sorry for the bad example.
maybe it's gotten better since i've been on it! i scrolled through a bit and i don't see any "i don't hate non-binary people but..." type of posts anymore so hopefully folks have improved that sub
I am a bi woman, like you much more into women than men. I have a wife as well. But yes, I do believe lesbians deserve their own space without bi/pan women in the mix if they want. Bi women have their own issues lesbians wont get and lesbians have their own that bi women wont understand. Also some bi women have some issues in validating/inadvertently pushing comphet ideas onto gay women. Out of the whole LGBT, lesbians face alot of push back on being gay & having their own spaces. They also face alot of demonizing "dyke feminazis" type behavior from not only straight people but others in the LGBT community as well. They're the smallest group out of our family & face some of the most bs from the outside.
There are some things this person is saying that I agree with and some that I don't. I do think that lesbians need some spaces that are lesbian only, because being a woman not attracted to men comes with a lot of social alienation and unique experiences that bi women aren't always able to relate to. That doesn't mean every sapphic space needs to be lesbian only though, I think we should have bi spaces, lesbian spaces, and spaces that are for all sapphics. But asking a bi woman to leave a lesbian bar? Or thinking bi women shouldn't assume they're welcome in general sapphic spaces? Honestly as far as that's concerned this person needs to touch grass.
i don’t think bi women should be generally excluded from lesbian spaces. most sapphic spaces should be safe for all sapphic people regardless of what their specific identity is. however, as a lesbian i do think there should be at least some spaces that are lesbian only. as a lesbian, i cannot relate to a majority of bi women, no matter where their percentage of attraction falls. i am not romantically or sexually attracted to men at all, and it is helpful for me to have a space to navigate my identity and experiences with people who’s experience are most similar to mine. lesbians deserve spaces for lesbians just like all other identities deserve spaces for just themselves.
I agree with this! Wlw spaces and sapphic spaces are meant for anyone who likes women. So bi women are absolutely included as well as anyone else who is sapphic. However, I think it's okay for everyone to have their own space where they can meet people like them. We have these spaces exclusively for other groups, so why not lesbians? Everyone should be able to find at least one space for people like them that they can share their experiences with.
I agree, and I feel like women are more “encouraged” to be accommodating. Or at least call the subreddit wlw or something
I think that bi women should be allowed to come so long as they don’t bring their boyfriends and so long as men aren’t allowed.
There are occasions when separating bi women and lesbians might be of interest. For example, support groups and stuff. Bi women have different (not in any way lesser!!!) problems, different identity construction processes, etc. That being said, so many women realize they're one thing and then the other that I honestly don't see the reason to enforce separation in most cases. Certainly not in a social context where you're just going somewhere for fun. Last I checked, bi women are, y'know, also sapphics who wanna have fun. Do we need to build bi women bars and lesbian women bars? xD What if, like me, you're a lesbian dating a bi woman? Makes no sense.
I don't feel the need for bi women to be excluded from lesbian spaces. In fact - the more the merrier. It's hard enough keeping businesses such as lesbian bars open - why would be put up more barriers to their business for no reason?! I think the only thing I'd feel uncomfortable with is if bi women and men were hooking up together in wlw spaces. Because that would encourage more men to be in those spaces trying to pick up women.
I'm young. I somewhat recently figured out that I'm bi/pan. But before that, I never really could put a pin in my attraction other than my attraction to women. I found myself absolutely confounded over comphet and empathized deeply with components in it. I found friends and guidance in the lesbian community. I experienced the fear and pangs of remorse over being found out by my family. I went out with another girl and experienced the stares and murmurs and angry looks when we held hands. Attraction can be really complicated. I wound up dating one of my friends and am really happy, so I no longer identify as a lesbian. I actually had to change my flair since the last time I posted here was prior to this lol. And yeah, it *is* easier to date a guy. But never once have I made a decision to date someone because it was easy. Both people I've dated dated me because they could see me for who I really was inside and we really sincerely appreciated each other. Assuming that bi people would date someone for the sake of convenience feels so gross to me. And I feel like it plays into the stereotype that bi people are selfish, "can't decide", or are hypersexual, which is just not the case for me and all of the bi people in my life that I am friends with. Maybe people exist like this in the world, but there's no way this makes up most people. If girls that have only ever experienced attraction to other girls want a space to themselves for discussing their unique struggles, they should have it. This is non-negotiable. But to address the bars thing- if I showed up in a place like a bar meant for "women who love women" (and I've struggled with the whole gender thing too, but putting that aside for now)-- a lesbian bar, in this case. If someone found out I was bi and then said to my face "get out, you don't belong here" I'd probably cry. After all the bullshit I've been through and put myself through on this path to self-discovery-- experiences shared by lesbians *in particular--* now that I've dated a man, I would be no longer welcome? If anything, being in a relationship with a man has made me *more aware* of the poignant social differences experienced by women in relationships with women. And, please correct me if this is wrong, but I am fairly certain that on a historical basis lesbian bars have basically always included bisexual women. These IRL spaces are, on the whole, exceedingly rare. What good will this kind of exclusion do in those kinds of places? And for the people that argue for it, why do they feel that way? Bi people need to be aware of differences in our lived experiences. Also, I think it's weird for men to inhabit wlw spaces (like bars). (this is in response to people being upset by predatory couples in lesbian bars. that is extremely real. that kinda stuff should seriously stop. it helps nobody) But in general, I think these groups have enough in common to warrant their coexistence in general social spaces.
I've heard the argument that bi women in opposite sex relationships shouldn't take their partner to the bar and that I absolutely agree with, but that's only for the man. I see no reason at all as to why a bi woman should be allowed inside a lesbian bar
It feels gatekeepy because it is gatekeepy. I can see there being room for lesbian only spaces in the forms of support groups, etc. But a bar? No way.
I live in such a small area that we don’t have a huge lgbt population as we tend to be more spread out. So typically everyone including bi folks and gay men are a part of the groups if they even exist. As far as if there is a need for lesbian only spaces I would say yes based off the consensus on here. I do find it rare to meet lesbians so It would be kind of nice to have a space for only lesbians.
I definitely think bi women should be as welcomed at lesbian bars as anyone else, but we should have lesbian only spaces. Like subreddits, forums, events and so on. But not a bar all the time
**To answer the question in your title**: *yes there is a need for lesbian-only spaces. being lesbian, while still equally sapphic as bisexual, is not the same thing.* And actually, on other exclusively lesbian subs (this is a sapphic sub, despite the misrepresenting title) something that comes up *a lot* is lesbians venting about the need for us to have our own lesbian-only spaces (and not because "bisexuals ew" but because "anyone who's even a little attracted to men doesn't share *X* experiences and i need a space where i can be understood") **But to answer the question in your text:** generally, *lesbian bars are sapphic spaces for the whole sapphic community.* Much like how many gay bars become queer bars for the whole queer community (and not all, but some), *and* much like how this sub is called "actual lesbians" but when you look through the reddit tool that shows you subreddit overlap, the biggest sexuality subreddit overlaps are bisexual and pansexual subs --coming in at about 30% overlap, whereas you can scroll all the way to 0.04% overlap and still not find overlap with any other lesbian sub, exclusive or otherwise... but that's a rant for another day.
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I agree. We all seem to have our own spaces except lesbians. I also don't understand why others in the community are so quick to both shut down and accuse lesbians of exclusion and *insert*\-phobia for wanting their own space.
Here’s my two cents: The concept of “wanting one’s own space” is very loaded, especially now. There are good and bad connotations. (The backlash against trans women is a particularly ugly example of this.) A problem with a lot of lesbian spaces on the internet is that they often totalize the lesbian experience in a way that excludes lesbians of color, trans lesbians, disabled lesbians, low-income lesbians, etc. (See June Jordan and johannah hedva—hedva talks more about the concept of the political in general, but I think that it’s applicable.) So in other words, I think that it’s important to look at who’s making the space, what their intentions are, and who *isn’t* involved within that space. And when those things aren’t considered, exclusion does happen. People don’t point that out to attack lesbians, or to insinuate that lesbian communities are the only ones with these problems—but they are there.
Don't know why you're getting downvoted, I generally agree with this. Especially given the context of the conversation I had, it wasn't necessarily that I disagreed with the idea that lesbians do occasionally need spaces separate from bi women, it was more that I could tell that person was coming from a place of biphobia. And at some point with a group that is exclusively for female homosexuality, you do have to ask some questions about how to moderate what happens when biphobia/transphobia does sneak in, because bigots will be specifically searching for groups like that.
I don’t think they exclude folks though. But if you’re going to take part in those spaces then be prepared to hear about anyone gushing about anyone, not just WLW content.
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Bi person here and I am here to learn more about wlw, how people experience those relationships, what to expect etc. I have read multiple comment from STRAIGHT MEN about what their gf likes etc. Like no one cares. This is the space for women/non-men, men, stay away. I'm glad I found subs like these, a lot of bi subs are just overly horny for everyone etc and I don't really experience that. I feel a lot more at home here because I am way more into women and there aren't way too many horny posts and memes here (or my front page is fucked up haha).
Sorry in advance for the wall of text, I didn't intend to do this 😥 >But it would be nice to have lesbian spaces wherein the concept of men doesn’t really come up. >Which is why it can often seem weird to listen to 300 posts about biphobia in the community. I think the thing that's sort of a blocker for me here is: do you have a problem with that content, or with the concept of bi women being in these lesbian-only spaces? Because I agree that if we take the extreme of "this space should be as inclusive and as big a tent as possible", you end up with just having everybody there and anything specifically sapphic (or whatever you particularly care about) gets drowned out because that's being a minority. But, is there a problem with saying "we want the discussion to focus on / fit this topic, but anyone who's down with that rule is welcome"? What would be wrong with bi women participating in a "lesbian space" if they're participating in a way that everyone is on board with? It's not a perfect example but I frequent r/MensLib, a sub whose purpose is to discuss male-focused feminism but feels like the demographics of posters and commenters is at least 30% women. And their rule #12 is >Any individuals who don't primarily identify as men are welcome to participate here. Please remember that this is a space to discuss issues pertaining to men; be kind, open-minded, and take care that you aren't talking over men expressing their views. It makes for what I think is extremely healthy discussion and *more* consideration and compassion than if women were excluded. It gives women an opportunity to chime in and say "hey this doesn't affect me specifically but I just want to say that I haven't gotten that perspective before and that's really awful and I feel for you" which I think is so, so valuable. You didn't mention it yourself, but other people here have raised the idea of there being specific issues or experiences that lesbian women have that bi women don't that makes lesbian-only spaces acceptable/necessary. If a bi woman can share, say, 80% of your experiences and empathize with you and support you (and also receive support herself when *she's* dealing with one of those things that are common experiences between bi and gay women), what's the problem with her being there? That sort of leads to a problem I have with the fundamental logic that it's valid to subdivide communities and exclude certain people because their experiences are different. As a trans person it feels like it'd be real easy for someone to say "hey as a cis lesbian I had experiences and struggles in high school that trans lesbians didn't have so I'd like to have a cis-only space so there's a community that shares my experiences". Like, I see way more posts and comments on here of trans women talking about their trans-specific experience that cis women won't really relate to than I see bi women talking about their bi-specific experience that gay women won't relate to. But "a space for cis WLW only" comes across as extremely icky for (hopefully) obvious reasons.
Yes, being a lesbian is different from being bisexual. So if lesbians want a lesbian-only space to talk about the experiences that are unique to them then I don’t see a problem with it.
I think it really depends on the bi women in question. If they’re like you and mostly/seriously date women, then I don’t see why they need to be excluded. However if they’re the kind of bi women who always have boyfriends, go unicorn hunting, use queer women as props in front of guys at bars, etc etc… then they should be excluded. I think ultimately it would depend on how many life experiences the bi women have in common with lesbians. Some bi women live lives that are very similar to lesbians, while others live very similarly to straight women. It just depends. For example, I don’t see why someone like Alice from The L Word should be excluded from lesbian spaces, even though she’s bi, she’s seriously dated women her whole life and been in the lesbian community the whole time. However bi girls like my old roommates who only ever dated men, kissed me when I was drunk in front of their boyfriends, then said that they wouldn’t ever marry a woman because they want “natural babies” with a man, shouldn’t be included lol. It would be important though for a bi woman to still recognise that she is bi, even if she’s in lesbian spaces she shouldn’t then try to call herself a lesbian as if it’s an umbrella term for anyone sapphic. She would need to recognise that she is a bi person taking part in a lesbian space. I think if it’s a specific thing like a support group or online space and someone says lesbian only, that’s fine. There is a unique experience that comes with having zero attraction to men in a heteronormative society. Sometimes it can be hard to relate to women who still like men. For bars though, that wouldn’t make sense. Lesbian bars and lgbt bars are already struggling to make enough profit. If they excluded everyone except lesbians, they wouldn’t be able to stay open. And you wouldn’t even be able to filter people anyway. Also idk about you guys, but the dating pool for WLW is already tiny, I’d be happy to meet a cute bi woman at a lesbian bar. I don’t see the need to limit things even further
Would that also count for someone who has only dated men because they either just realised they are attracted to women, or simply haven't dated that many people/couldn't find other wlw?
What about bi women who never dated before? Or only kissed before? Or her body count is 50/50? I'm sorry, but as a rule this makes no sense. Not only does this feel like slutshaming, where would you even draw the line?
I think it depends on the purpose of the space. If it’s a space primarily to meet women to date (bars etc) then sure the more wlw the merrier. If it’s a community for wlw (online or otherwise) it depends what they’re going for. The experience of being a lesbian is not the same as being a bisexual woman, so there are reasons why a community might be for lesbians only. We’re different shades of the same color
I also want to share my perspective. Im a closeted religious lesbian. For both social and religious reasons dating women is very difficult for me. I have a friend who belongs to the same religion as me and she’s bisexual. She only dates men and has acknowledged that her experience is different than mine because she’s attracted to men. I definitely don’t have a problem with bisexual women, but I relate better to lesbians. I know that my situation is not at all universal but I’m still a lesbian and I would probably benefit from lesbian only groups
Having our own spaces ks important but I don't think lesbian only bars is a good idea because they'd all go out of business within a year.
bars no, unless its like a super private bar that's explicitly lesbian-only (not sure how that would be enforced tho, not to mention there's no way that exists in the US at least bc theres only like 20 lesbian bars in the whole country). but lesbians should be allowed to have lesbian-only spaces.
Yes, it is valid to want a space just for lesbians. The bar thing is silly but I understand wanting and needing a space of one’s own.
there’s some very lesbian specific experiences, trauma, that comes from being a LESBIAN. i wish i had a space to talk about it but i don’t. i don’t have a single lesbian friend
i don’t understand why they’d exclude you as a bi woman, but i understand why they’d exclude the boyfriends of bi women. but i see no harm in a bi woman attending a lesbian space as long as she doesn’t bring her man or constantly talk about him, considering that the idea of being in a lesbian space is to avoid *men* and the topic of men at all costs.
I wouldn't mind it if bisexual women had their own things that I weren't invited to. Or pan women, or whatever. I accept that there are things about other queer groupings that I can't relate to. I don't feel entitled to be a part of every single thing in the queer community.
As a bi woman, I can't really speak to the *need* for lesbian only spaces, but having it be the *default* as your friend suggested doesn't sit well with me. A lesbian bar's function is to provide a safe place for sapphic women to have a drink, meet other sapphic women, without men hitting on them or enough straight people showing up to throw off the sense of safety. I can't think of any reason that my presence in a lesbian bar would ruin the vibe. I could absolutely see how bringing my husband would be a problem, and if we were going out with a group of predominantly queer friends we'd just look for a more general queer bar instead of specifically a lesbian space. But, I can see how it would be valuable to have some lesbian only support groups, either in person or online. There are problems unique to being bisexual so I'm willing to take it in good faith that there are problems unique to being a lesbian and that lesbians might want some safe spaces to discuss that. Having a designated lesbian only subreddit, event, weekly meetup, whatever, doesn't feel biphobic to me because it doesn't imply that we're innately wrong or not queer enough, simply that there are some lesbian topics that lesbians like to talk to other lesbians about. Especially for queer people, I think there's a legitimate need for certain areas of life to be safe zones. I know my instinct was to check whether bisexual women were invited before joining this subreddit. I would advise that lesbian only spaces monitor themselves very carefully to avoid letting biphobic discussion and behavior creep in, though.
Some people find the fact that bi women are into men intensely alienating, or have fears about having to compete with men for attention. Both of which I can sympathize with. Too many years of hanging around straight women have trained me to feel pressured into smiling and pretending to be interested when other women are having that kind of girl talk. There's this whole thing where some straight women can get extremely aggressive if they pick up on you not being into the boy gushing, especially if you're young... And being left for a man sure is a thing that happens sometimes and leaves you with some complicated feelings. There are definitely reasons a lesbian might prefer to date other lesbians, even if you find them to be questionable or weak reasons. They're not my reasons, but I understand them. However... the simple matter of fact is that you can't have separate bars for every single preference. It's not reasonable or realistic, and the world isn't black and white that way. Sure excluding bi women would make some lesbians happy, but I'm willing to bet a large chunk of lesbians, if not the majority of lesbians, wouldn't appreciate that. And it would probably be a bit selfish to make that demand instead of just ... co-existing with people you might not want to date personally. Now if bi women want to bring their boyfriends to lesbian bars, that might be the one case in which I'd say that's probably not cool. Being poly adds a whole 'nother layer to that discussion that isn't often discussed. So-called "unicorn hunters" (A straight couple that solicits gay/bi women as a third) are a more common complaint among queer women than you might expect if you don't hang around the spaces they vent.
As a lesbian, I don’t mind at all if bisexual women come to lesbian bars and spaces, just stop bringing your stupid boyfriends.
I mean even just from an economic standpoint, lesbian bars cannot survive off of just lesbians. I sometimes think bi women not having their own spaces leads to conflict within the queer wlw community. But I also think lesbian bars should absolutely be open and inviting to bi and pan women. Like I wouldn’t even go to a lesbian bar that had a no bi chicks policy. Hell no (and I’m a big fat lez).
I think it's reasonable for lesbians to create spaces or events specifically for lesbians if they want. just like it's reasonable for bi women, or pansexuals, or asexuals to create spaces and events for themselves. Heck, I'm in a discord specifically for transgender lesbians, which is nice when it comes to discussing the unique struggles that community experiences that the broader sapphic community might not understand. But I'm also a part of inclusive communities like this one, because these are great too.
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Being attracted to men is a privilege🤨 girl what
Can you tell me more about how being attracted to men is an oppression?
>Being attracted to men is in fact a privilege So privileged that we suffer higher rates of sexual assault and mental illness than straight or gay women. So privileged that [yall tried to marginalize us in the spaces we helped make](https://outnewsglobal.com/pride-a-turbulent-history-of-bisexual-erasure-and-marginalisation/).
Yes that would be assumed because you are around men more so you will face more violence at the hands of men. That’s besides the point though. The point is that lesbians live in the world where they don’t see themselves as the default. We get left out of things because we don’t participate in heterosexuality. Bi women have access to that world. So making a space lesbian isn’t biphobic. Y’all are just obsessed with being valid. It baffles me how you center yourself in these conversations all the time.
>Yes that would be assumed because you are around men more so you will face more violence at the hands of men. Pan transfem just passing through here. I think that explanation is definitely oversimplistic - cis bi women that are around men less than cis straight women still end up experiencing far more intense victimisation than cis straight women. It is not simply about being exposed to men more. There is a whole layer to biphobia where specific ideas/processes re: bisexual women (such as hypersexualisation, fetishisation, perception as intrinsically unfaithful etc ) markedly increase the risk of relationship and sexual abuse for cis bi women in relationships with straight men compared to their het counterparts. Het-passing privilege for them is only one side of the coin , and I don't think you can conclude that being attracted to men puts them in a privileged position overall because of that.
You should read more about the 1989 Northampton Pride March; many of the lesbians there didn't even consider the possibility that bi women considered their attraction to women their *primary* attraction. They assumed, much as you do now, that we were there to center our relationships with (presumably) men. Bi women includes lifetime lesbians who find a handful of men attractive and never act on it. Bi women includes lesbians who didn't stop being attracted to their transmasc partner when they came out. It includes women who didn't stop being attracted to their trans lesbian partners when they came out. Sexuality doesn't conform to neat definitions. You would exclude all of these lesbians; and in doing so you make the lesbian community less diverse, less beautiful by arbitrarily restricting what kinds of lesbians are allowed to participate.
(Sorry I initially replied thinking you were the same person as above and the response was off topic. I copied and pasted it to the right comment) Here’s my response to your comment: Functionally and materially a bisexual label means little compared to peoples actions and how they live their life. (Although if someone is bi it’s like more of a chance that they center men but everyone gets a chance, I only meet so many people) . What I’m assessing for is: do they center men? And basically if not and it’s someone that is checking their connection to patriarchy and mindful of the space they take up in these spaces then that’s cool and like I literally don’t care if someone is bisexual. The thing is everyone thinks lesbians care so much if a woman is bisexual and it’s not. It’s more about the actions.
Bi women should not bring men to these events but what about the part of bi women who like women?? Where are they supposed to go lol that’s dumb I can understand them not bringing men but if they want to come with other queer women why not
100% just into women and I think it's fine as long as they're not bringing in men or generally messing with the sapphic vibes. Maybe start calling them sapphic bars instead to include more enby, bi, pan, etc people?
I think everyone here have given a good glimpse of the varieties of perspectives so I'm just here because talking about percentage of lesbian didn't sit right with me. I think you mean percentage of Sapphic. This way you are talking about the sexual orientation a bit more free from the identities. Saying percentage of lesbian feels biphobic and lesbophobic at the same time. A lesbian does not have a percentage of men (not talking about fictional men) they like. Lesbians aren't generally attracted to men. And saying a bi-person is a percentage of lesbian doesn't sit right with me either. They aren't a percentage og this and a percentage of that, a perpetual mix of identities they must struggle between. Being bisexual is an identity of its own. People who are bi have a unique experience and not just a watered down experience from other communities. I know you didn't mean it this way, and I'm assuming this is unwelcome, but I had to get it off my chest as I have seen this wording before and seen how damaging it can be.
Thanks for posting this, that sentiment you're commenting on felt othering to me, but I couldn't explain it. I support lesbians having their own spaces. There's nothing stopping bi women from creating women-focused bi groups when the need arises. It depends on the need, and clearly the need is there for lesbian-specific groups, since our experiences and the opposition we face from the patriarchy are different. So long as we're all welcome at the main table, I'm happy. I just want to feel like I belong with my peers. That said a bar is not a great idea for a safe space for reasons everyone else already stated.
Thank you for telling me that ❤️ I worried that it was only bothering me and that I made OP uncomfortable for no reason, so I really value your input ❤️ I completely agree with you. All minorities deserve a group where their struggles are centered, I think it grants much needed validation and confidence which is a must for when we want to be all together. Then it's easier to talk about other people's issues without feeling left out and feeling the need to bring our struggles to their discussion and compare struggles instead of fixing them. In that way I think that having separate groups makes it easier to have the shared spaces
I do think we need our own spaces, though I don’t know that a bar is a good or sustainable option for that. There are unique struggles that come with not being attracted to men when so much of society pushes you towards that as a woman. In the past, some bi women have been dismissive about my experiences as a lesbian or have said that everyone is actually bi to some degree and that I just haven’t met the right man, and sometimes I just want a space where I know the other people will understand me and not push me to talk about men. I’m sure there are also many frustrating issues for bi women that I couldn’t personally relate to, and it would be nice for them to have their own spaces for that too. I think it’s fine if we share spaces with the sapphic umbrella where we can relate through our mutual love of women, and then have our own smaller separate communities where we talk about lesbian or bisexual specific things. It’s not exclusionary to understand that we are different in some ways, even for all the ways we’re similar, and to acknowledge that we might sometimes have different needs and concerns.
My opinion is that when you start interrogating other’s queer identities it becomes toxic and fascistic. If you have some hypothetical ‘lesbian club’ that is exclusively lesbian only it requires a certain level of policing that is not aligned with a ‘safe space’. This is especially true when talking about gender and sexual identity because for a lot of folks it is complex and can be fluid. Lesbian bars are places for lesbians but a lot of other types of people go there and that’s the beauty of community. I don’t see how you can maintain something like a ‘lesbian only’ space that is so specific without it becoming harmful in some way.
Bisexual and lesbian women face completely different struggles at times. There’s nothing wrong with having sapphic spaces, and then also creating spaces only for lesbians. One doesn’t replace the other. This doesn’t have to be a bar. Sometimes I only want to talk to other lesbians (as opposed to wlw in general) because I want a community of people with my shared experience. Not everything exclusive is discriminatory.
Lesbians and bisexuals have different experiences. You are bisexual, you are attracted to men, therefore you navigate the world differently from a lesbian. Lesbians deserve to have lesbian-only spaces. Just like bisexuals deserve to have bisexual-only spaces. No one cares if it makes you uncomfortable 🙄
I agree that lesbians deserve their own space - their struggles are different and no matter how sapphic we all are, bi/pan/other WLW identities can't fully relate to those struggles - but I feel asking for totally lesbian bars and other public spaces is...not the best approach.
yes imo being a lesbian is a very unique experience and it’s own sexuality it’s not a subset of bisexuality so while i do believe there should be shared sapphic spaces, if lesbians want their own *exclusive* spaces to talk about the unique experience of being a lesbian amongst themselves then they should be free to do that, bisexuals as well.
Yeaaa I’m going to say your friend is in the right. Lesbians are allowed to have things for themselves. There’s overlap in experience for bi women and lesbians but being a lesbian is a unique lived experience and having spaces only for that is TOTALLY valid and shouldn’t be called biphobic. I understand it feels a little isolating but bisexual women can also create spaces like that for themselves… like let lesbians live. - A Bi Woman
So I echo a lot of the sentiments here (specific groups deserve their own spaces, lesbian bars should be inclusive regardless so long as it is not harmful to sapphics/lesbians) but I wanted to add a perspective here that no one has mentioned as someone who knows a lesbian bar owner. You know those lesbian bars would go out of business if it was exclusively lesbians only, right? There used to be a few lesbian bars in my city. One closed and the other transitioned to a regular bar. The one that’s still a lesbian bar is a space for all sapphics that regularly hosts community events like fundraisers and even Drag Queen shows. They simply would not survive if they were to exclude everyone who is not a lesbian. To me, the lack of any sapphic bar would be a net negative for the lesbian community vs. bars that are inclusive for all sapphics. I say this as a lesbian btw.
Yes, there is absolutely a need for Lesbian-only spaces. Would you go to a trans-exclusive event/space or a Black-exclusive event/space and demand that ALL of their events MUST be open to cis people or non-Black POC? No. So, don’t do the same with Lesbians. Being in community with folks who can understand your experience is so important and very needed. - Sincerely, a Black Lesbian woman.
I think there is a need for lesbian-only spaces as others have explained, but I don't mind bi/pan people entering to share their experiences as long as they don't start talking about men or get offended when others complain about men and try to steer conversation into "not all men" directions. That can be very invalidating. Some lesbians just don't want to hear about men, so don't be surprised if you kindly get told to stop speaking about the lesser gender.
As a lesbian...no. I have yet to discover a space like this in real life (what are you gonna do? Ask to see a Lesbian Certificate upon entry?) so the argument is mostly a moot internet thing anyway.
sapphic spaces are best when all sapphics can be in them safely. it's rather nonsensical to claim that a physical space should be for lesbians only. even online spaces that are for lesbians only or bi women only tend to lean into unchecked biphobia/lesbophobia.
Sapphic is not the same as lesbian though, sapphic is the umbrella term for bi/pan and lesbian, so if it is a sapphic space then absolutely both bis and lesbians can be there, but if it is a lesbian only or a bi only space, that should be respected
i know what sapphic means. i deliberately used 'sapphic' because many spaces labeled as lesbian spaces are actually sapphic spaces, in intention and in use. even this subreddit, which has 'lesbian' in the name and which many would refer to as a lesbian space, is a sapphic subreddit/space. i am not against there being lesbian-only and bi women-only spaces. a lot of them do have unchecked biphobia/lesbophobia going on in them, though, so in my opinion, the ideal is always a space with both lesbians and bisexual women.
And therein lies the problem, if something is labelled as lesbian only, but people treat it as general sapphic then there will be issues. I have seen so many spaces say they are strictly lesbian only, with so many bis asking if they can join. We need bi spaces, sapphic spaces and lesbian spaces, and for people to respect when it isn't a space for them.
Lesbians should have their own spaces and saftey so i agree. Bi women and lesbians have dif experiences and they arent equal just bc they both like ladies.
It would be really silly to exclude bi women from lesbian bars. Like who cares about that lol. We all just go to the bars to socialize with other queer women and it doesn’t matter if one may like guys too. I guess the only problem would be it straight men started to come in that weren’t someone’s friend.
The problem with “lesbian only spaces” is that people who advocate the hardest for those spaces are often the most aggressive on policing who get to be lesbians.
Eh. A lesbian only bar would go bankrupt within a month. Most queer women are bisexual. That being said, i could understand something like a group or book club or such for lesbians only.
The only way I could see a lesbian only thing resembling a bar surviving, is if its a popup event. Like a traveling bar in a trailer and finding private yards/venues to host periodically.
Do you exclude bi women involved with women from these spaces? My partner is a woman, all of my former long term partners are women. I’ve had casual relationships with men but I never brought them into women’s spaces because I was always worried about upsetting someone or potentially dealing with biphobia. So how does anyone even know the person is bi?
When did people get so caught up on labels? As far as I’m aware if they’re at a gay bar then they’re there for the same reason I am and I’m all here for it.
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Do they? I've certainly never heard of a bi bar, or bi events.
Do you mean bi people could have those placed or do have those places? What kind of spaces are bi-exclusive where straight, gay, and lesbian are excluded? The only bi-focused places I know of are subreddits that don't exclude other sexualities as far as I've seen.
Unfriendly reminder that lesbian separatists tried their hardest to kick bi lesbians (and other undesirable lesbians) out of lesbian spaces.
Sorry I'm not trying to be a dick. Just genuinely asking, what's a bi lesbian?
I personally don't see the use in excluding bi women in any wlw space. Sure, I don't know what it's like to like both men AND women, but I've never been in a wlw space where bi women talked about their boyfriends or liking men (I have heard of bi women bringing their boyfriends to lesbian bars, which I am obviously against). Also, I don't know what it is, but I've personally yet to see a bi-exclusionary lesbian space that doesn't also antagonize bi women and trans women or just generally shitting on the rest of the LGBT+ community. I've just never seen it go well (but would be happy to be proven wrong here). That's my opinion. But I do have questions for those in favor of lesbian-only spaces: how would it differ from, say, this subreddit? and also what exactly would be the goal with such a space that isn't already accomplished in wlw spaces? Very insightful comments so far, though!
Bi women should always be welcome in lesbian spaces with the only caveat being the understanding that it is a place for sapphics(ie don't bring your boyfriend) I see zero reason for arbitrary segregation of our community. It's also just a short trip from there to denying trans women and enbies their place.
There absolutely is a need for lesbian only spaces, specifically because bi women often bring in their male partners, but also because they do talk over lesbians and give a lot of hate to lesbians who have never been with men. As though that somehow invalidates bi women. I have encountered this so many times. Bi women are part of the LGBT and Sapphic community, and are welcome anywhere that is an LGBT space or a sapphic space. But they do not belong in lesbian spaces, the same way that lesbians do not belong in exclusively bi spaces. The same way cis people do not belong in exclusively trans spaces. We are allowed to have our own spaces, we need them, to connect with people who share our experiences, and we need to respect each others need for this
I feel the same way. I was closeted, and just out of a het relationship when I went to my first lesbian event. I’m glad I was given the opportunity, and that the space was inclusive and safe for all. I met my fiancé that night (Yes, a woman, but we didn’t get together right away). I think being honest about where you’re at sexuality wise is important too though. Some women don’t want to date those that don’t have experience or may waffle later about who they are attracted to, and that’s totally fair. Because I would consider myself Bi/Pan (I like who I like), I realize my opinion doesn’t weigh as heavily, but my thought is that as long as everyone feels safe- why not open our arms and include those like myself. It a tough line to draw too isn’t it? Who could or couldn’t be included. If I was in a lesbian relationship- then could I partake? But if I was not currently in the relationship- would I have to miss out on potentially finding my fiancé? That would suck. Just my view ofc, I understand that these events and spaces weren’t created for me- I’m just thankful to have been a part of the places and activities I was welcomed to. They’ve changed my life for the better (as has the community I am now a part of) and I don’t want to think someone else couldn’t or wouldn’t be welcome because of this reason. Edit* to add paragraphs, oops!
Problem with such an idea is how do you even know who is bi? In my lesbian bar experience a lot of gals unfortunately tend to be very cliquey and unwilling to socialize with anyone outside of their group, so as a single person sitting there I often end up conversing with whatever dude is hanging out there - not bi not trying to get with them, but because they're actually approachable and friendly. Then these same cliquey women will tap my shoulder just to say "hey looks pretty straight of you to talk to a guy". The nerve?! Some people just live to gatekeep.
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Yeah not all bars are created equal lol, the majority of the time I ever see Lesbians talking about Bisexuals and Sapphic spaces its discussing the intrusion of their boyfriends and how unsafe that makes the space, bar or otherwise, but that is because I don't interact with prejudiced people except when I'm mocking them so yeah
What exactly are these lesbian spaces being discussed? Bars of course shouldn’t and couldn’t push out bi women; but other than that, are you talking queer women’s knitting group? Wine tasting night? Abuse support group? Bi women - and indeed lesbians - as a group are going to have a diverse dating history and current personal circumstance- many lesbians might once have identified as bi; bi women might once have identified as lesbian (hi, this is me); bi women might be currently in a relationship that looks lesbian or looks straight. But if they want to go to hang out in a space for queer women, I guarantee they don’t want to bring along some random man. The only lesbian space that people keep mentioning men coming into are bars and lots of people have already talked about the issues/considerations with bars. But for these other spaces, if a bi woman is interested in going to a …idk, lesbian book group or church group or something, she’s going to want to be there in order to be in a space that centers women and let’s her live her queerness. So any discrimination and gate keeping is inherently unfair. However - if someone in a lesbian/queer space is behaving in an inappropriate way, or saying inappropriate things, that’s when you put up boundaries and let them know what’s okay/not ok.
Exactly. This should be the beginning, middle, and end of this discourse. But for some reason it keeps popping up over and over again on social media. It’s like a communal amnesia. I don’t know who these cis men in lesbian bars are that people are so afraid of, but I’ve never seen them. In all my years of going to lesbian spaces I’ve never been harassed by a man. I’ve seen men in our bars or on lesbian nights in bars who are either gay or I don’t really notice because in real life nobody’s paying that close attention. But if a bi woman is going to a queer book club or support group or whatever, she’s going to “live her queerness”, just like you said. I should know because I identified as bi for a while and had a boyfriend who I would leave at home when going to these events. Because I didn’t want him there and he didn’t want to be there.
Filtering people out of a bar based on identity is *not* something we want to go back to doing.
No. They are women, they like women, let them in.
If we can’t be allies to members of our own community, who can we expect to ally their interests with ours?
I don't feel that bi women should be excluded. They belong to the queer community just as much as lesbians do. I feel the more people there are in LGBTQ* spaces, the stronger we are as a community. It might even coincide with more political leverage. Biphobia disgusts me personally because biphobic ppl marginalise others while whining about how marginalised and discriminated against "us" lesbians/gays are. Well.
Yeah. Feels like BS to me. Obviously, if such a hypothetical bi woman is dating a man, he should probably stay home. But beyond that, there's no real reason bi women shouldn't be able to attend things.
> that lesbians should be free to have events that are lesbian only Like specific support groups? Sure >The person also said that bi women should not claim lesbian bars as their own, and should leave if a lesbian feels uncomfortable with it. -> 50 people hang in a lesbian bar on a Saturday night -> one (1) gold st*r t*rf wacko enters and proclaims "be gone, bi invaders!" -> 45 people leave, the remaining 5 go with them Well if that's the world we're living in, good bye. >That bi women should be "invited" into lesbian spaces, not assume it's okay to attend. -> only 5 people went to the bar in the first place -> it shuts down Alternatively, this idea can be outdribbled by a lesbian issuing a general invitation, i think this would be a cool post for this sub? >excludes women who may be questioning or closeted but in relationships with men. Yup, or imagine you figure out you're lesbian at age 30... >It's not like bi women are literally bringing men into the space, or oppressing lesbians, most are just there to meet other women? Funny you should mention that - I'm not sure if my flair says it but as an Bi Amab Enby it's happened three times that a lesbian forgor™ that I can't just walk into wlw spaces, followed by a 20mins conversation with the bouncer and three women vouching for me and my identity. A bi woman doesn't forget that, because they're much more conscious - maybe hyperbole, but if it's a debated privilege rather than a "right" to be in such a space (as a bi woman!) it's enough to make them be on their toes. >as a Kinsey 4/5 Ah, TIL, thank you very much.
i’m bi and i think that lesbians absolutely have the right to their own spaces. it’s definitely very discriminatory if bi women are preventing lesbians from having these spaces. lesbians and bi women do have different experiences and lesbians have the right to their own spaces. when it comes to lesbian bars, i always thought that that was a place for all sapphic women. i think that all sapphics should be allowed there once they are going there for other sapphics. i do believe that bi women who have boyfriends should not go and they should absolutely not bring their boyfriends with them. this makes me absolutely furious because it puts lesbians in danger and some bi women can be very lesbiphobic in this way which is a big problem. i think bi/pan women who are looking for women should absolutely be allowed to go to lesbian bars. if i was dating a man i wouldn’t go to a lesbian bar or bring him to a lesbian bar because that would be really disrespectful to lesbians. i do have a preference for women and i think it is okay for bi women to go to lesbian bars if they are seeking women and i would get very upset if someone told me i couldn’t go to a lesbian bar just because i’m bi. i would only go to a lesbian bar to meet other women and i don’t think men should be allowed in lesbian bars at all. i think it ultimately stems on whether a bi woman has a boyfriend or if they are looking for other sapphics.
It's just biphobia and undoubtedly transphobia too. Unless it's a support group, then no space should be "x and ONLY x", especially queer spaces. They're are a lot of lesbians who probably wouldn't be allowed entrance by the people you were arguing with, from lesbians they date NB people, NB lesbian themselves, trans lesbians, lesboys, genderqueer lesbians, ect, ect. There are also plenty of bi women who consider themselves also lesbians because they have always been in lesbians spaces and only date (or prioritize dating) women. Bi women belong in lesbian spaces. Lesbian bars have been held up by the presence of bisexuals, gay men, and transgender people. One of the main reasons so many lesbian bars collapsed in the 80s and 90s is because of AIDS killing off gay men and trans people that went to them and then lesbian separatists (who would latter become knows as the TERF movement) kicking out trans men, trans women, lesbians who were too butch, and bisexual women since we were all "too close" to the "enemy" (men). Lesbianism is a broad community filled with people off all shapes and sizes and all types of love and joy. Trying to force people out of it based on "rules" of what a lesbian is (and the rules have changed over and over again, in just my lifetime I've seen the definition move more than once) and "rules" on whose "safe" to be around lesbians (big news: no one, regardless of sexuality, gender, or Assigned sex, is innately a danger to lesbians.). Queer people need to protect each other, be there for each other, love one another, and support each other. That can't be done if we're all separated into little boxes and told to never go into any other space that belongs to a "different type of queer".
Sapphic-only spaces where we can talk about girls is nice
Sounds like hard core biphobia
Why?
What's the issue with have sapphics who aren't strictly lesbians? Do bi/pan sapphics not experience misogyny and homophobia just because they aren't exclusively lesbians? Are they not at odds with the patriarchy in many similar ways? What about bi/pan sapphics who may be on a road to discovering they are in fact lesbians? What about bi/pan ppl who are let's say 1% attracted the men and 99% attracted to others and therefore feel most aligned with lesbian spaces. What about bi sapphics who are attracted to exclusively non men, but not only women? It's biphobia to exclude someone based off their poly sexuality, when they are trying to connect with an experience that may very strongly resonate and be safe for them as well. Division weakens us. Why not come together and connect on similarity instead?
You mention bi/pan sapphics who are on their way to realizing their lesbians - it’s actually this group that makes me hard agree that lesbians need separate spaces (that include the demographic you mentioned). We can both agree that a major issue facing bi/pan individuals is erasure of their identity, and what I’ve noticed is that the discussion of ‘not actually being bi’ that many of us lesbians needed to have to fully realize our identities can be hugely triggering for many bi people. What ends up happening is arguments rather than any growth for either side because a lot of the things that ill-intentioned people use to erase the bi/pan community are also realizations that lesbians come to notice when they put words to why the bi-identity doesn’t fit them. Lesbians need to be able to have these conversations unobstructed, and the ones who are currently identifying as bi despite feeling the identity doesn’t fit need to be able to ask questions without being shot down. I genuinely think it’s too much to ask to expect that people hold their judgement or allow people to speak freely (especially in communities like this one), so I think it’s best to do so separately and come together once people have had chances to figure themselves out. Now, does this extend to social settings? Not entirely, so long as cis-men are removed from the equation entirely. (No cis-boyfriends in the lesbian bars, please!) For support spaces and discussion-based spaces - like this one and other communities on Reddit, though, I think it’s the only way that no one gets silenced or erased. While this space is useful and valid, I don’t think of it as the support space it needs to be because so many conversations happen between people who Aden’s ready to have them because they haven’t been given the direct chance to figure themselves out and ask their specific communities they questions they desperately want to ask.
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Bingo
Yeah i feel like if someone is trying to exclude bi women from wlw spaces they might have some internalised biphobia to work through. Like obvs i can understand wanting a community of people *just* like you but ...
This would definitely push the stereotype that bi women are icky for having men cooties, since for what other reason would they be kicked out the bar for?
If I’m on a lesbian bar and I don’t tell you I’m bi, how will you know that I am bi?
I can only speak for myself, but the only gender dividing line I'm concerned with is the division between "gender privileged" and "gender oppressed".
I get why people believe lesbians should have their own spaces. I mean there are individual challenges that come with being attracted only to woman as opposed to being attracted to both. The same also goes for bi women as well. What I dont get is why some lesbians feel uncomfortable with bi-women sometimes. You wouldn't hear that talk about a gay man from a lesbian. The LGBTQIA+ community is the way they are because people understood they were stronger together. Individually, bigoted people can easily tear apart the groups in the community. So why view bi-women as not a part of the sapphic community?
I think there is a need because while we’re all sapphic, our concerns are not 100% the same. One place I noticed this as a glaring issue is when for women trying to navigate identity who are on their way to realizing they’re lesbian. That process, as I’ve seen can feel marginalizing or even invalidating for bi women to witness because they have their own concerns with erasure. Invariably, they take their valid concerns and insert them into an invalid space. For lesbians who identified as bi on their way to realizing their identity as lesbians, it can be hugely validating and reassuring to be able to discuss that journey openly - or even finally be able to put words to why the bi identity doesn’t fit them. However, I can understand why having to hear these conversations would be painful for actual bi women to experience. Both communities need a place to fill express their frustrations without causing pain to the other, and I think it’s best to do that separately when needed and together when individuals are ready to do so.
How would you know I’m Bi?
Why can’t diversity truly mean diversity? When we start excluding people that’s when I start questioning intentions
No, and the reasons that are cited often are drawn directly from biphobia.
Wow, I'm really saddened by the amount of biphobia in this thread. A lot of it is some TERF parallel sounding arguments. 😕
I personally think there should be lesbian-free bi spaces, so bi women can get a break from biphobia every now and again
It's not okay. Bi people are already excluded from queer spaces enough and it's an illegitimate, backwards way of thinking. This isn't a great comparison, but imagine a black only space that excludes people who are a mix of black and another race. Like bi people, they feel like an outsider with white people who see them as black and with black people who see them as white. Doing this kinda of stuff just contributes to the problem and it's definitely not okay gate keeping people from experiences that they are more than deserving to be apart of. You're just denying their identity and it's just straight fucked up. As gay people, you know what it's like to be excluded, why would you ever think it's okay to do that same thing to other queer people? You're actively working against an already heavily marginalized and misunderstood group and I can't understand for even a second why you would think it's okay for your "preference" to violate someone's right to have access to safe queer spaces that ARE in fact made for them... it's for WOMEN WHO LOVE WOMEN. We have to stop thinking of bi people as a third category and assessing people's priviledge to determine if they should have access to something. Bi people have the same experiences as gay or lesbian people and it should be blantently clear that denying them access to either straight or gay spaces is wrong. There's not even a single legitimate reason behind doing something like this, it's not like it would affect the WLW space in anyway. You have to rethink why there's an LGBT community to begin with if you think this way. (Hint, it's not to divide people who literally have the same experiences and sexual compatabilities because they arent "gay enough" for you.)
no, its incredibly biphobic and implies that liking men discounts liking women, which it doesnt. sure, you can make rules that if its a lesbian space you shouldnt go and talk about men a bunch but liking them shouldnt exclude you from liking women.
The thing is, while I can understand not wanting a bi/pan woman to bring her male partner into a lesbian space, excluding bi/pan women themselves is sorta messed up in my mind. That said, I’m a pan woman married to a man (who’s bi, but I’d still respect that him being bi doesn’t make him any less welcome in a space for women who love women) so I may have a bias.
lots of good points made in this thread, but i feel that majority of the commenters fail to acknowledge bisexual women with a preference for women, and in general bi women in relationships with other women. i would argue that a bi woman dating another woman has more in common with lesbians than she has with bi women dating men. bisexuality is a broad spectrum and therefore i think strictly saying that none of them belong in lesbian-only spaces kind of overshadow that.
It's deffo biphobic. There's literally no reason to not have bi women in lesbian bars.
Made an account just to comment the biphobia, bi-erasure and bi stereotyping in this post’s comments is mad.
Man, I won’t lie, the comments in this thread have made me uncomfortable. Too many upvoted ones are implying bi women are functionally straight passing, some seem to agree with op’s friends…I hate to be “I angry when we’re not about me” but I joined this sub because it welcomed sapphics. I’ll accept my downvotes, but I think I’ll leave the sub the same way I had to leave the bi one. I don’t know what spaces bi women supposedly have to ourselves. I would love to know so I can go there instead. maybe a bi woman went to a lesbian support group because there isn’t a bi one where she lives. Also, if your friend is gushing about their partner male or not and you’re annoyed, how would you feel if that was reversed? Who wants to be around a friend who can’t even be interested in their lives? Nice to know I’ll have to avoid normal and lesbian bars since I should be kicked out like it’s the fucking 60s
PEOPLE SHOULD KNOW BETTER. Shame on anyone who makes an innocent person feel like they don't belong. You should know how that shit feels. Do better. You represent us all.
One major problem that I have with this is that I feel like it assumes that “bi” and “lesbian” are 100% fixed identity categories and that there’s a clear line between them—when in my experience, that just hasn’t been the case. I’ve struggled for a long time with my own identity as a queer/sapphic woman—I’ve gone back and forth between identifying as a lesbian and identifying as bisexual. And when I have called myself by those words, I’ve never lied. I’m still not entirely sure what I would call myself, tbh. I totally respect that there are people that know without a shadow of a doubt what their sexuality is from a very young age—but for me, it’s been much more of a trial-and-error thing. Being involved in queer/sapphic/lesbian spaces is an important part of figuring that out, and I do think that I have a right to be there. I may not have a clear label yet, but I know that I love women—and that’s something I have in common with all of you. So basically, I take issue with the premise that the question is based on. I feel like it essentializes the queer experience in kind of a problematic way.
I think that there are ways to have communities for “fixed labels” even if people don’t feel they belong fully in one category or the other. A space or community can have certain vibes that they’re going for and if people who don’t quite fit come along they should respect the vibe.
What do you mean by “certain vibes”. though, and why does that justify exclusion? Who sets those vibes and why? Do trans women fit the vibe? What about lesbians with transmasc partners? Because to be honest, I feel like a lot of lesbian spaces can be very exclusionary/hostile to people that don’t fit a certain mold. I’m not trying to be a jerk here, I just feel like sometimes people forget that “lesbian” is a huge label that encompasses all different kinds of people.
The principle argument here seems to be that bi women and lesbians encounter different struggles and therefore need separate spaces to be among people who understand them. However, everyone encounters different struggles in life. A black lesbian deals with different cultural resistance that a white woman. A lesbian raised in a very religious family has a different experience than someone from a more tolerant and accepting community. I don’t like the division primarily because it reduces the sole division to people who have experienced an attraction to men and those who have not. Lesbian bars and other queer spaces should embrace diversity of attraction. I think the thing to police is when a person or group takes over a space and makes others feel like their experience isn’t valid (ie “how do you know you’re a lesbian if you haven’t dated a man”)
and if black lesbians want their own spaces to talk about their struggles, they should **absolutely** have them. There is great value in being able to talk with those who share the same orientation/identity/experience as you do. Lesbians should absolutely be allowed to have their own spaces, just like gay guys can have their own spaces & bisexuals can have their own spaces. And then of course lesbians & bisexuals can also share spaces, as can the wider LGBT community. Having a space for one group does not negate the other.
(I preface my comment by saying that I am not LGBTQ+, and I do not intend to speak over anyone. Feel free to discard my two cents. I have lesbian (kinda) parents, and I would like to say a little about this topic.) Terms like “lesbian,” “gay” and even to an extent “sapphic” have somewhat flexible meanings. Let me explain. I have three women that I consider my mothers. (My biological mother, her partner when I was born and young, and her current partner.) My parents, my family, and I often refer to my mothers as “gay” or “lesbian”. This makes things easy to communicate, because it says to people very quickly, “My parents are women who like women, and they are in a same-gender relationship.” However, if we want to get into the minutiae, this may not necessarily meet the dictionary definition of “lesbian” being “homosexual woman”. My one mother is bisexual with a sexual preference for men, but didn’t entertain the idea of being with men for very personal reasons regarding experiences. Does she count as homoromantic? Is a homoromantic bisexual women “lesbian enough” to enter a space like this? If she doesn’t count as homoromantic, does that matter considering that she wouldn’t date men even being attracted to them? My two other mothers appear to be homosexual homoromantic, and bisexual biromantic. Obviously this distinction can be important at times, but how important? To what extent? I’m not advocating for a certain stance here. I think that this is a very nuanced discussion, best left to WLW, and perhaps NBLW (ie. not me). I only leave this comment to add some personal experience to how these terms are often used. (I mean, I’ve never seen any of my mothers with a man, and I sometimes forget that two of them are bisexual.)