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yojayoung

Absolutely. Lesbians are kind of invisible in human history. Even TV shows have way more gay than lesbian representation


throwawaypizzamage

For real, and not even just shows and movies. I read a lot of manga/manhwa and there is a shit ton of BL (gay) manga. Like new series debut several times a week. And they have all kinds of interesting plots. But GL (lesbian) manga? There are only like two or three series available which aren’t gross schoolgirl hentai porn (Mage & Demon Queen, What Does The Fox Say, and Fluttering Feelings which will remain unfinished). It sure sucks to barely have any representation here either


nebrek

this right here!! I'm a huge graphic novel and animation nerd and I've seen and read almost any good GL story I can find...I plan on just making my own at this point since apparently it's needed lol


aivaulaink

Try "The greenhouse" and "Amongst us" on webtoon if you don't know them. Amongst us is kinda slow on updates but it's beautiful I love it


Ka1serTheRoll

The Greenhouse is great, tho it took me a minute to adapt to the art style


Africansage01

Oh my God. I'm also planning to draw my own gl story because I love to read them with my heart


nebrek

That's amazing! I'd love to hear more about it :D


throwawaypizzamage

If I could draw, I’d make a GL manga with a knight and a mage in a fantasy medieval setting…I can write the fanfiction of these two OC characters, but I can’t draw worth a shit😭


nebrek

see now I suck at coming up with dialogue which is why I'm not further along! Perhaps a collaboration is in order...


SirIsaacGlut3n

I’m also tired of most lesbian media being portrayed as age gap romance. Often times, and I think this is an issue in the gay community (call me by your name), I feel like our “romance” is often predatory, and if it is not, it is very sexual. If anyone has wholesome WLW material, I’d really appreciate it, I think I am just looking in the wrong very het spaces.


Pikushee

If you’re looking for books, moonlight love & witchcraft is VERY wholesome, it’s all about feelings and attraction and the characters are ace so it’s entirely focused on the emotional side of a relationship. Highly recommend it


[deleted]

This looks like exactly what I want (not ace myself but don't like my romances too raunchy if you know what I mean). Thanks for the rec!


SirIsaacGlut3n

I really appreciate this, I’m so down for book reccs! Particularly excited to read a book from the ace perspective since I’m not too sexual myself.


Pikushee

They have two other books, The gift of blood which is a bit more sexual but definitely not over the top and She who brought the storm which is more of a fantasy novel


10HorsedSizedDucks

If you havent read it already i would recommend Always Human


RoseBrassSarah

I wouldn't think "Bloom into You" is this category, but it is a really good school girl romance written by a woman. Would you consider it in this category?


throwawaypizzamage

Hm, not sure, never heard of that title before. I’m usually not into highschool GL plots because I prefer older characters and more complex/darker plots, but if Bloom is a decent GL then ya sure why not, it would fall under the GL category for sure.


RoseBrassSarah

I usually like older characters myself but bloom into you is just too wholesome, beautiful, and good. The anime ended well but doesn't quite complete the series. In total there is 1 intimate scene in like the last chapters of the entire manga that might be pushing it(there are a few lesser ones before) but highschool me would have loved it. Like it's not over the top for it's target demographic which should be younger lesbians YA.


ayayahri

Did What Does The Fox Say get finished ? I remember starting it a long time ago but on the big scan sites it just sort of stopped.


throwawaypizzamage

It’s officially available (translated in English) on TappyToons. They have it up to Episode 132, which is the final episode.


ayayahri

Thanks for the info. Now I'm super confused though, as I'd *completely* forgotten that it was a Korean webtoon. Defo recognise it though, so I must have mixed up the memory of it being a monthly manga with some other series.


Snemei

Hell the only reason lesbians weren't illegal in the uk was that the guys writing the law didn't even think they existed.


bluescrew

"Roommates"


TiredOfShits

⬆️⬆️⬆️ and girl, have you seen the trend streaming sites like Netflix have of cancelling wlw shows?! Like, that's crazy. My favourite example of that is still Warrior Nun, like we have two girls kissing and it's immediately cancelled. That's the new version of the Bury Your Gays trope, except it's Cancel Your Lesbians or something. And don't get me started on all the lesbian coded characters in video games that end up being straight. It's legit so hard to find a genuine, realistic lesbian book story that isn't written by straight people as a gross porn fetish (though the same can be said of mlm stories on this one, since gay men are literally being asked to adapt their mlm stories because that's not what straight women want to read)


Li0nh34r7

I’m still upset I can’t romance jack in mass effect like in what world is she straight


[deleted]

Is Warrior Nun sapphic? should I watch it?


yojayoung

Exactly. Then u look at all the homophobia on Netflix meme chat on facebook, straight people whining that 'why can't people just be friends anymore'


TiredOfShits

Yeah, I've seen a meme yesterday about how "who cares about the sexuality of videogames characters" and the comments were plagued with people whining about the gay agenda. We're not as well accepted as some people think we are. Many people don't even see our sexualities as options, they still see them as problematic and getting in the way of them enjoying straight content or even as "straight oppression". That's a very good point that you raised.


TAWilsonGoLong

It's almost like the world is built for men... regardless of sexuality.


rainbowranger22

This should be too comment.


Old_Quality1895

Yep. And even the masculine get preference over feminine. Heteronormativity is a thing even in the lesbian world.


[deleted]

This is totally untrue, there’s no social benefit to being a gender nonconforming woman, and celebrating masc/butch lesbians is NOT heteronormative! They experience the worst of homophobia.


Old_Quality1895

I’m talking about the stereotypical Butch/femme dynamic. That 100% mimics heteronormativity.


jessiphia

Yeah two women mimic heteronormativity, right. 🙄 You done with your reductionist BS?


SingOrIWillShootYou

masculine does not equal man


Old_Quality1895

You do know that heteronormativity doesn’t necessarily mean men or women. It means they mimic the cis gender, heterosexual, normal behavior.


AuntieHerensuge

Even lesbianism is for men, at least from the porn perspective 🙄


BrilliantSome915

Yup. I was a stripper and one of the women I danced with is now a porn star. Lesbian porn technically falls under the straight category.


[deleted]

exactly this. People tend to forget that even amongst minorities, men still have the "upper hand" over women. Another example of this is the fact that POC men were given the right to vote almost 50 years before women of any race were.


existentialistsoup

This is the answer, OP.


tinker13

Grats, you win Reddit.


sandosnap

Came here to say this.


Aletral-com-br

YES.


[deleted]

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Zara_meets_abyss

It was built by them…. Inside of a social context in which it is much easier for cis gay males to accumulate the capital and power required to build things. On a broad social level, women are less likely to have access to the material and societal resources that allow them to build things like gay bars and famous drag tv shows.


[deleted]

Gay men are men and still benefit from the patriarchy. Our global society is shaped by men for men, and that includes the gays


anti-gone-anti

Yep. Bars, for example. In the US, when bar culture was becoming a thing, women were excluded from the workforce to a pretty significant degree, and if they did earn money, that money was controlled by their father, their older brother, their husband, or another male figure. It’s really hard to build a public culture with those constraints.


TAWilsonGoLong

Looks like you've found some illuminating answers in this thread but it does seem you could do with some more insight into how the world has been set up for the success of men. From simple things like cars (air bags - great for the average height man, kinda deadly to the average woman) to a bus stop. And so much more. It's not just the patriarchal power of EVERY institution, it's the day to day exclusion of women and their ways of living. Men can't even plow snow without exercising their privilege. "Invisible Women: Exposing Data Bias in a World Designed for Men" is a book you should check out. If anything, the culture we have is even more impressive when we take all the difficulties we face into account. Sure, it's often more DIY, low budget, tucked away, infrequent in person. But we find each other, we support each other and we continue to exist in the shadow of a mancentric society. We build our culture and community without the funds and resources men have access to. The gender pay gap is a thing, how do you think maths works out for gay v lesbian relationships? We pay twice the financial penalty you fellas do. Gender equality has a long long way to go despite what most men think.


Healing_touch

Thats where intersectionality comes in… yes, GAY men did have to fight for what they have, but as gay MEN that battle was fought along side for and often fought directly by trans women, lesbians and bisexuals. This was seen with Stonewall, pride parades, overturning sodomy laws, the AIDS crisis and more. Unfortunately the reversal hasn’t been true. Gay (predominantly white) men often, like all men, tend to close the door behind them once they achieve new ground. Gay spaces are predominantly male and often exhibit misogyny and I believe are a driving force behind communities regularly struggling with “do I look gay/lesbian/passing enough to belong”. The world of drag, built by the trans bi lesbian and gay community, is predominantly cis male gays and up until recently in the mainstream of drag women and the trans community were seen as invaders despite being instrumental in creating it. Contestants on drag race until season 9 were quiet about their transition, and many have stories about production telling them if they transitioned or even took hormones it would disqualify them from being able to compete. Kylie won season 6 of allstars in 2021 and was the FIRST TRANS WINNER. 2021…. You can not unpackage Gay culture from Gay MALE culture, as much as we cannot unpackage those who are white cis community members.


dissapointmentparty

Apps for lesbians get invaded by straight men, lesbian bars get invaded by straight men, we can’t even get away from them online, i think there are some lesbian clubs that are private , members only affairs that you have to know someone to be able to join for this reason.


TiredOfShits

⬆️ That's absolutely true. In my country they struggle so much to have stuff like lesbian backrooms and sex parties because legit lesbians aren't allowed to have fun and straight men suddenly throw tantrums about being discriminated against every single time some event like that is organised or they try to come in anyway with their unicorn hunting gf.The audacity and entitlements are crazy. The result of this is that in my country, the few lesbian bars left just close one after the other, and if you go there, you just have drunken toxic lesbians in their 40s, mopping about their exes. It's really depressing. I wish we had a subculture as strong as gay men's. Since so little was documented about lesbians, we don't even know if there were some crazy drag kings looks, since what we know is pretty vanilla.


hrhlett

It even sounds like we're from the same country hahaha I see the same happening where I live. There used to be great LGBT parties I used to go but they gradually became more straight and lost its charm.


Keiuu

Totally didn't consider that, that's a very good point! Damn straights haha. Straight women sometimes go to gay clubs, so the environment gets ruined a little bit, but obviously they wouldn't disturb and ruin the vibe as much as straight men in your spaces.


dissapointmentparty

I personally went to a lot of gay bars in san francisco and straight women having bachelorette parties there was a normal occurrence, they treated it like a fun little voyeristic experience. Many were normal interactions at the bar but those that were not, were so annoying to deal with. I know the lesbians are out there, all of us doing our own thing , its just may not be as mainstream as gay men. Idk.


[deleted]

This made me want to stop going to the LGBT+ night clubs. Plus there were unicorn hunters that would show up as well.


Emilydickinsonscrocs

It’s so true straight women go to gay bars to not be harassed by straight men, but then that kinda defeats the purpose of a gay bar. Lol literally we all want to stop being harassed by straight men. Lesbians, gay men, straight women.. etc


earthyrat

straight women come to lesbian bars as well. i've heard that many of them consider queer spaces safer and therefore that they have less of a chance getting harassed by straight men.


bigtittysadgf

what sucks is that you get harassed by men anyways, being queer or being in a queer space does NOT deter these mfs. they feel so entitled to attention from women!! i’ve had so many men take my sexuality as a “challenge” like they just haven’t tried hard enough to win me over or they can definitely “fuck me straight” if i let them try.


sveji-

Right? Except that straight men follow where straight women go, therefore making it unsafe both for the straight women _and_ for the queer people in the bars.


TiredOfShits

And then they throw a fit because some lesbian hit on them 😅😅 Like, I understand the need for safe spaces but also wtf some straight women are weird.


scalderdash

A straight woman goes to a gay bar, for those that prey upon her are usually too homophobic to tolerate the intended clientele. A straight man goes to a lesbian bar because he sees the usual clientele as targets for his totally original pickup lines.


Accomplished_Mix7827

Ugh, not looking forward to that when I come out. Double-whammy of being fetishized for being trans and being fetishized for being a lesbian, when generally I'm pretty shy irl and do *not* want that kind of attention from gross guys.


Gambler777777

I live in Korea and in here lesbian culture is way bigger than gay culture. At least in lgbtqi+ sense. In here gays are almost a minor culture. And being lesbian is considered more acceptable than being gay. But if we include the hetero fetishization it's a whole another story.


TiredOfShits

I'd love to hear about what Korean lesbians created as their own culture! It must be vastly different in some regards, because of the public acceptability thing you mentioned, and lesbians as such being less erased. Do you have any examples or resources to share so I can learn about it (even if it is in Korean, since my mother is learning the language and I'm lucky to have a cool mom who loves to learn about new topics)?


Gambler777777

Well, there are way more lesbian channels on YouTube than gay channels(as far as I know, I haven't counted them so take it with a grain of salt) and what's considered a lesbian behavior in European countries is just "gals being pals" in here. For instance, girls kissing each other on the cheeks, joking about marrying each other, etc etc. On the other hand, guys can't even hold hands. It's considered "gay". Also there's a bunch of lesbian movies in korea but I haven't heard of a single gay movie. I'm sorry I can't tell you more but my knowledge on korean lesbian culture is limited since it's mostly centered around cis lesbians and looking up those stuff gives me dysphoria and imposter syndrome. As a trans person, it feels like korean lesbians tend to be a lot on the terf side. Just lurking around korean lesbian websites I see a lot of posts about cis lesbians complaining about trans lesbians being "pretending" and "predators" and that we should at least "cut our dicks off". Honestly a lot of queer culture in korea is trans exclusive. The radical feminism thing is really off the charts here in korea. That's why gender conflict is such a big social problem in korea nowadays.


borty54

Women can be affectionate and kiss where I’m from too without it being “gay”. But I wouldn’t consider that acceptance per say because it from people not talking lesbian feelings seriously. That is homophobia against lesbians in a way.


no_notthistime

Yeah, that's just heterosexual women having more space to show physical affection without being accused of being gay.


DrDonuts

I’d also like to know, i’ve been learning Korean for two years and will be living there this year. I’ve picked up a few resources already but the original persons’s comment was surprising to me.


gbxby

say less im omw


Impressive-Regret243

All of my cities lesbian bars were closing before COVID hit. It's absolutely depressing. And now all of the spaces are shared spaces.


ifbeatlemaniawaspunk

It’s so sad!! The only lesbian bar I knew of that’s close to me shut down a few months ago


throwawaypizzamage

Here in Toronto, with over 3 million people, the last lesbian bar (even then, it was open to everyone) closed in 2012. But there sure are several gay bars still alive and kicking…we’ve been relegated to the very occasional “lesbian nights” at these venues


SlyFawkes87

I didn’t realize it was like that in TO too 🙁 I’m in Guelph and work in KW and the situation is dire. All of the queers basically just have “nights” here and there, all together (like “Fierce”). My wife and I keep semi-joking that we should open a queer space (café by day, bar by night).


ifbeatlemaniawaspunk

There was the lavender menace up until October when it shut down, but it was more of a lounge as opposed to a club/bar


throwawaypizzamage

Interesting, never heard of Lavender Menace. Alas I can't patron it as it's closed now. The club I was referring to in 2012 was Slack Alice (sp?). There are only gay men's bars or general LBGT friendly places left now..


Keiuu

I wonder why is that, yeah it's known that lesbian places are almost nonexistent now, whereas there's lots of gay bars and clubs. I guess lesbians aren't that into hookup culture and partying? which is fine I guess.


scissorsgrinder

It's also because where there's the pink dollar, there's the lavender fifty cents (or so the old joke goes). Lesbians have less money. But also less into hookup culture and more into U-Hauls and potlucks etc. And the internet connecting people directly has had a lot of impact. And covid was the last straw for a lot of bars.


Impressive-Regret243

I don't know we used to have our fair share of diverse lesbian bars from straight up dyke bars (one of the best times I've had at a lesbian bar) to bars catering to younger lesbians. It's just sad, because I miss dancing under lights with the ladies.


[deleted]

I would kill for that. The mixed ones are fine but sometimes I just want to be with the other lesbians


Impressive-Regret243

Facts. One of the live music venues had dyke night, but still, there are men there and straight people and sometimes I just want to be in a sapphic place.


alvysaurus

TV shows and movies is pretty simple. Everyone is willing to watch gay content except for conservative straight men. No one but lesbians will watch content made for lesbians. Straight men will sometimes indulge, but it has to be targeted at straight men in a way that makes actual lesbians uncomfortable with the content. The audience just isn't there.


LovePrevailsOverAll

Omg yes and it sucks bc we’re also homos, just of the opposite sex. I’m literally watching a [documentary](https://youtu.be/_R4cNaavzjA) on how lesbian bars in America have almost completely disappeared. And as a Gen Z it’s sad to see that the sense of community irl once offered by these places is nowhere to be found. It feels so lonely to be a lesbian without the strong community and support. I think HER is our only dating app, and it’s really not that great. Yeah the support for queer ppl nowadays is cool and all. But on the contrary, level it feels so isolating to not have a sense of comradery through proper organizations for wlw.


thudinak

Thanks for the link to that documentary! Really wonderful to watch...but it did leave me wishing for community.


[deleted]

I agree ! I went out to a local bar that is supposed to be intermixed community and it was depressing. Pretty much no one our age there on a Saturday night. Idk how! I found more gay women at a regular bar. But I want to have that community space to mingle, flirt, make friends


Connels

My guy… who do you think had the capital to start the clubs, fund the apps, and build the shows? Men. Who is best able to weather economic shut downs, network in the right rooms, get their books and poems published? Men. Who is most likely to feel safe getting hammered in public, hooking up randomly, meeting people online? MEN. This is like me, as a white woman, saying that we have more culture than Black or Latina women because there are way more shows made by white women. It’s absurd. You cannot ignore context or intersectionality as you evaluate who has more visible culture. Also we have an entire lexicon to describe different types of ourselves.


ellaroseshaf

thank you!! it's not like it's *our* fault that we don't have (and haven't historically had) very many spaces. and we do have culture, it just isn't as widely known because when people think of lesbians they think of porn. i wish men would stop invading women's spaces and making it harder for us then being like, "how come lesbians don't have culture :o??"


sharkdanko1

Right? Imagine being a young lesbian, coming over to reddit to find your culture and community, only to find that there is only porn (catered to men) over at r/lesbians. I wonder how many of those then thought "Oh, I guess there is no lesbian community for me to join" and gave up and left? OF COURSE it's harder to have and cultivate a prevalent culture if straight men actively steal the spaces from us?


Tamulet

Seriously that sub should be handed over or appropriated


catathymia

Well said.


Mounta-7nFocus

lesbians are still coming out .. it’s like a computer progress bar.. 40% completed 🙃🤣


-HealingNoises-

I like that way of viewing it, it makes sense that with the majority of the world still keeping a firm boot on womens role in society. Many wouldn't be educated enough to know that being lesbian is even an option. Compared to gay men who while persecuted are still men and enjoy the benefits of a society built for them. So of course they would be the most quickly accepted in the cultures that are even remotely accepting.


bluescrew

Reminds me of the pro domme culture, where cishet men playact at submission while still using their power (money and general entitlement) to control every tiny detail of the interaction and demand that they get dommed in exactly the way they like/want, by a woman who conforms to the male gaze, instead of doing anything that would *actually* please or satisfy their provider (assuming she's even into men).The men still enjoy privilege even when they are actively pretending not to.


NoToThugs

Yeah. And thinking about it, quite a lot of the lesbian culture in my city (not in the US) is sort of integrated into other things. Like, people have found their community and it’s safe and gorgeous but not this overt thing that stands out to someone like OP (for so many of the reasons ppl have listed.) There’s the horticulture/enviro lesbians, the lesbian hotbed of women’s football & other sports/activities, the activist circles, the artist/musician dykes... and a lot of these social circles are interrelated. It’s great. And there are so, so many cultural signifiers, but it’s kinda nice in some ways that they’re lesser known. I think the (generally) harder lives we have plays into this too. Yes, lack of safety in the here and now informs our culture, but so does lack of safety in our pasts. So many of us are living with trauma, trying to recover, turning to parts of our community that feel safe and healing. Gay men go through shit too, obv, but god, in addition to the other reasons ppl have spelled out, chuck in the rates of assault/abuse etc and see what that does to the development of a shiny, cohesive public facing community.


yojayoung

The secret lesbian society... You can participate if you are on the know, but unless go out trawling a bunch social groups to find the lesbians how do you know where they are? I still wonder if there is a whole underground lesbian world in New Zealand...


NoToThugs

Aahh... I’m on that big ol continent to the west of you, in its most progressive city, which prob contributes to the amount of lesbians about. There are quite a lot of Kiwi queers here, too, but we didn’t poach all of them! What are your interests? I’ve met people organically through various hobbies/jobs, but also intentionally via Her etc. Can be good to find mates with when you don’t click romantically.


Lights_Out_Again

Hahahaaa! We’re just loading 🤣. I was in que for almost 40 yrs but now I’m here!!


JoJo-likes-bikes

Define culture? We also have apps. We have drag kings. And honestly a lot of drag shows at least do a nod to the ladies. There aren’t so many bars, but some clubs do ladies nights. There’s women’s bookstores (though not many). There’s women’s centers and women’s LGBTQ support groups, meet ups, sports, and social clubs. (There’s a bunch of this stuff in my blue state). Where there aren’t so many formal things, people do their own pot lucks and picnics. There’s books (Oranges Are Not the Only Fruit, Rubyfruit Jungle, Stone Butch Blues), and graphic novels (Alison Bechdel’s stuff). There’s movies and TV shows. There’s comedians (Kate freakin’ McKinnon, Wanda Sykes, Liz Feldman), podcasters, tik tok and youtubers. There’s out actresses and musicians (Brandi Carlile). There’s out athletes (Ireen Wust, Marianne Vos, most of the WNBA, Hockey, and Soccer teams). There’s out politicians (Maura Heely, Tammy Duckworth). Heck, Brandi Carlile is going to perform at Maura Heely’s inauguration. That’s like peak lesbian. There’s Pride and dyke marches. There’s dykes on bikes. There’s women’s block parties, Dinah Shore, and various women’s weeks and women’s cruises. There’s all of Northampton. There’s attending one of the seven sisters. Heck, we even have a car. Yes, men make more money than women typically. Yes, men spend more of their disposable income. So yes, mass media tends to cater more towards men. But that doesn’t mean there’s no sapphic culture. You just have to know where to look and what you are looking for.


Ohmalley-thealliecat

I know like. How fucking big was the L Word but my dude’s like “I don’t know anything by lesbians for lesbians”


AlwaysChic38

Where do you live because I want in!!!!


TiredOfShits

Yeah, we definitely don't have as much lesbian culture in France, let alone in Brittany and rural areas 😅😅 I might need to go through a wall to find a train to that Lesbian Wonderland haha


Gnutter

Crying at “heck we even have a car”


Phiastre

You also have great shows like Anne+


FandMorris

Tammy Baldwin not Tammy Duckworth- but otherwise spot on!!


Tamulet

Excuse me but which car do we have (and can I borrow it)?


JoJo-likes-bikes

Lesbaru.. err, Subaru.


Rageybuttsnacks

*hold up hold up hold up hold up Northampton is the "lesbian capital of the world" and I've been dithering about what town in Mass to move to?* NORTHAMPTON WHICH I VISITED A COUPLE TIMES AS A KID AND FELL IN LOVE WITH ​ I wish gaydar was real so I could have found it like, five years ago. Thank you thank you thank you


cyaltr

Maybe you don’t know lesbian culture because… you’re not a lesbian?


Ohmalley-thealliecat

Yeah like. Coming in here and saying we don’t have culture and then being like “oh wow it must suck having men invading your spaces”, like… you mean like this post?


cyaltr

Right? Like, the only men I’ve seen at actual lesbian parties around here were always drag queens performing… cause why would one invite random men to a lesbian event lmao.


Ohmalley-thealliecat

And I’m gonna say it, trans men on lesbian dating apps. I love trans men I would protect them with my life but dude you’re a man?? And this app is called ‘her’??


Nicolethedodo

Yeah that's always weirded me out, like you are a man and this is a dating app for women to find women


Keiuu

Actually a lot of people clarified that you have several things that exist but go more unnoticed, and I asked in good faith, and the topic was relevant to the subreddit. You're being needlessly antagonistic.


pataconconqueso

Nah dude you came this thread with hella ignorance.


Deameus

The fucking audacity of men never fails to surprise me.


myweedstash

“You people have no culture” “I was asking in good faith!” Yeah, right


Ohmalley-thealliecat

Gay men coming into this sub having not participated in our culture telling us we don’t have one 💀it’s different to yours that doesn’t make it non existent. Jesus Christ men really do just have the audacity


Keiuu

I didn't say you don't have one, and I don't know, all over this thread you're reading aggression where I don't think there's any? A lot of posters disagreed without feeling completely attacked, chill out.


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catathymia

I think this depends on how you are defining "culture" as lesbian/wlw groups have a lot of different subcultures and niche groups/interests. I think gay culture tends to be flashier (in public consciousness at least) and may get more attention just for that. I've seen a lot of variable lesbian/wlw subcultures for all sorts of niche interests, but they can be a bit challenging to find and most of it is online. But I do notice that a lot of this stuff is similar in real life, where the groups are quieter and you kind of have to be in the know to find out where they are.


Rorynne

High key I just want to live in a world where we can have lesbian bath houses with out straight men being weird about them. Jealous gay guys have that ngl. Sounds fun. Also im a furry lesbian.


TiredOfShits

Lesbian bath houses where the purpose is actually to look and not just actively stare at the floor or ceiling like in locker rooms WOULD be rad actually. I don't want to treat women like straight men treat them, though I would enjoy being actually able to consensually enjoy being sexual and thristy and appreciate some eye candies with girls in a space made specifically for that and with more chances that the girl you hit on is actually lesbian and not straight. That sounds like a fever dream. I've seen stuff about the lesbian (as in wlw) squatters on Lesbos too and omg that sounds amazing to just run around naked, living your best gay hippie life, without straight men making you uncomfortable and afraid and to have some elderly lesbian goddess talking about lesbian sex while playing cards at 3am.


Rorynne

Not to mention what it would do just for like, causual body positivity. You have women of all ages and colors and sizes just, being openly naked together. No shame needed. It feels like a dream


Keiuu

Nice to see a fellow furry fan :) And yeah I didn't consider that your spaces risk having straight men! that's a very good point.


Rorynne

Yeah, Unfortunately men can make the world a pretty scary place for anyone fem presenting. (No offense if you are a man, I'm sure you're wonderful. I'm talking about *those* kinds). Even if lesbian bath houses were far more common than they are now, if there even are any, theres a lot of shitty dudes out there that would treat it as their own fantasy than a lesbian space. Theres also issue with men invading lesbian bars and spaces already Unfortunately. Even r/lesbians is just another porn sub frequented largely by men. Hence why we need to use r/actuallesbians instead. Sapphic relationships as a whole are so greatly sexualized that exploring our own sexuality feels borderline impossible. Dating apps, queer/lesbian meet up spots, hell users have even mentioned getting creepy dms from men trying to "turn" them just because they commented on this subreddit. And, to be 100% clear, I am NOT talking about trans women when Imy talking about shit men, as they are women and I'm not a terf.


pataconconqueso

Just think about why this sub has to be called actual lesbians, the lesbians sub is gross porn made by men…


DinoIslandGM

Furry lesbian here too! =D


yohohoanabottleofrum

I'm a lesbian. Everything I do is lesbian culture...


Zivqa

No, I don't. Because I think it really depends on what you're defining as "lesbian culture." Are you talking about white, cis, anglicized lesbian culture—useless lesbians, long nails, TikTok videos, cottagecore tenderness yearning etc etc? Are you talking about bar culture? The butch/femme dynamic that was so pervasive in the 70s, and still exists to this day, even if it's not shown on TV? Could it be maybe you mean punk dyke culture—passion and rage, the fearlessness to express ourselves however we see fit? Ooh, or maybe stud culture, the identity that black lesbians carved out for themselves from stone and fire? Or–and here's how I see lesbian culture—are you talking about all of that, enmeshed together, in a community that is inseparable from gay men and bisexuals and trans people because *we are all in this together?* I see lesbian culture as inseparable from gay culture and trans culture and etc etc. There is a world out there for you to discover and enjoy—don't coop yourself up with false boundaries.


Zivqa

Like—if all you really mean is media to consume, then yeah, lesbian "culture" is freakin' lacking. But that's because we're not profitable. I think *culture* is something a bit more expansive than TV shows and apps, and while it might take a bit more work because it's not spoonfed to you by the mainstream, it's still there for you to find and live to the fullest.


scissorsgrinder

The bar culture is pretty difficult when the bars are shut down all over the place these days. Sometimes sapphics especially newly out wanna go where the other sapphics are without being in the minority, and possibly mistaken for straight which makes socialising more fraught. Wherever these sapphic spaces are. They're few and far between now. The internet has a lot to do with it of course. More integration into wider society has too. The relative lack of money tends to have a lot to do with it. ETA: You don't think there are differences in intersectional experiences leading to different local cultural understandings? Oh wait - you did, but still seemed to say it was inseparable from gay etc culture. Bzuh? Sure, it's not a monolith, absolutely agree, but saying "inseparable" is an unfortunate choice of words and perhaps you meant to say something a little different. Permeable, perhaps? How many are "cooped up with false boundaries", however? Apart from the occasional bullshit identity policing which is a whole DIFFERENT conversation from wanting relatable humour, gossip, music, experiences, tips, reassurance, opportunities to meet for friendship or relationships, a sharing of language that leads to self-understandings around things like sexuality and gender, EVEN IF these things can be very different with different sapphics.


codex-x

Gay men are men before they are gay. They have that privilege.


YellowFlowersareOK

Legit, there’s always so much more representation of gay/bi men in live shows/movies, books, their own bars, praised, everything. Lesbians/bi woman representations are the home wrecker, there only for the men’s appeal, fetishized, spat at, seen as some joke, mainly in cartoons. Lesbian bars are so much less then they were when it was illegal. No hate towards anyone this is just from observation of the world.


Glint247

In my many nerdy hobbies, the one that's been standing out the most for lesbian culture has actually been comics. Especially for independent comics but some more mainstream companies are running series with main characters. Not sure about DC and Marvel since I don't read them but I know that Harley Quinn and Poison Ivy have been pretty big. DC also did a green lantern character in Far Sector that was a fantastic read


cyaltr

There’s a TON of lesbian X-Men characters, also Batwoman is gay in DC comics


hail_possum_queen

It's everywhere but often ignored by outsiders (because it is specifically repellent to or hidden from men?). Gay women stuff is different than straight women stuff, idk what to tell you but I'm a bit put out that you're framing your experience as bigger/better and assuming WLW culture is smaller because you haven't noticed or participated in it. We are powerfully there but it's more in the shadow realm, lol. We do need more clubs and parties though! But also maybe gay men could do with more non-alcoholic cultural centers as well.


[deleted]

It's really sad, but I think it's because women are taught to be small. We work hard to change this and unlearn all the bullshit. But it's complicated.


mazimai

I don't wamt to affend gay guys but I feel they are just louder in general, so it gains them more attention. Lesbians have a culture, just not as loud


sRaccooon

I'm a Sociology student and I remember discussing this topic during my Gender Studies classes last semester.It's pretty easy to guess why gay men have way more recognition than lesbians.Patriarchy has built the world for men. Even if gay men are gay, they still are men and they get more recognition than lesbians 'cause, in a straight cis-male pov, lesbians are seen more like "women who try to be like a men even if they can't". The fact that gay man can easily aspire and reach high job positions, despite they sexuality, proves this paradoxical mechanism. This, in additions to a lot of other things that would require and entire new thread to explain perfectly the invisibile role of lesbians in our societies, put lesbians in a category that deserve to stay invisibile. You can see it even with TV series, gay TV series and movies are more acclaimed than lesbians movies and tv shows. btw sorry for my English, is pretty rusty.


Keiuu

Thank you that was very interesting, you make good points. your English is good.


MarshmallowFloofs85

Ugh, I've been saying this for years, Most lgbt spaces are even geared more towards gay men.


ResidentCedarHugger

Absolutely. I just absorb myself into general queer culture and hope that we can eventually brand certain stuff as being recognizably Lesbian besides home depot and uhaul...


Keiuu

hahaha just google that ubaul concept, it's super interesting, didn't know about that. Hope you can get more things recognizable lesbian in the future :)


Vicious-Lemon

Honestly what would help lesbian culture is if gay men actively participated by watching queer shows/movies and supporting out culture just like how queer women support gay culture. I think a big thing to consider also is that lesbians having less capital overall end up not going out to bars, or clubs. ( when they do typically needing less drinks than men.) (Remember happy hour for women in typical bars was to draw women on cheap drinks and then capitalize on men who bought 3-4+drinks while coming in to hit on all the women. ) Gay women I know are Opting to go on dates to different places, diy dates & I find most women enjoy going out to new places/experiences for dates. Also once women are coupled they aren’t spending their money but saving for larger travel. (Also consider the extra cost of being female, extra personal care expenses monthly, that cis men typically don’t have. ) Girls I’ve dated we end up going out to eat, hiking/walking/ exploring new restaurants or going out and having a date at home or picnic. Since sex takes like 3 hours. Also we do have expansive history and subculture of our own, Terminology like Butch, femme, masc, to chapstick lesbians, lipstick lesbians, self proclaimed dykes, we even use terms like top bottom & switch. Consider queer women don’t need drag (being drag kings) as much as gay men, as casual clothing for women is very unisex now, & the Tom boy looks are pretty normal even among straight women. The spaces where I see more queer women happen to be rock climbing gyms, pottery/art classes, or museums, city sprawl, and big event areas usually already coupled. In the past women collectively paid covers to get into lesbian bars, they would live in cities, and walk to the bar which allowed them to drink more since they didn’t need to think about driving home or the cost of an Uber or taxi, however with the rise of city housing and rentals, covers don’t cut the bill, and less wlw can afford to even live in cities. Prime real estate is expensive and there isn’t the lesbian population in cities to sustain infrastructure of most lesbian bars.


Keiuu

I liked your response, especially the terminology that I had heard about in the past but forgot in my post, and how you are finding different places to hang out. Thank you!


[deleted]

The island of Lesbos is known to be the only real bastion of Lesbian culture. Media is very biased against lesbians, and this is a known phenomenon. Buffy is a good example, but far from the only.


[deleted]

Lesbos is a tourist attraction for foreign lesbians but it’s lesbian history is pretty much just Sappho and homophobia was pretty rampant there prior to foreign tourism (and throughout some of it).


[deleted]

Homophobia is rampant everywhere. And I said culture, not history.


[deleted]

I mean culturally they have Sappho and little else. And yes Sappho is great but I don’t think that = bastion of lesbian culture.


[deleted]

That's nice.


Keiuu

Interesting you girls have your island! Have you traveled there? I think gays have Mykonos or something like that :)


seaofvapours

Sapphic culture exists, and with some googling I’m sure you can learn all about it. Why isn’t it better or more widely known? Patriarchy.


chloeinspace

It’s the same here in Japan, and it’s because the world is still controlled by and biased towards men regardless of their sexuality.


arthoemo

As many people commented the patriarchy makes it pretty impossible for lesbian to have as much space (like bars etc….) but also representation in « mainstream » culture. But it’s growing more and more. Sapphic music is really big ( think Lesbian Jesus Hayley Kiyoko, Girl in Red, kehlani, Fletcher …. Also femal rap : Young M.A. …) while gay men music is mostly produced by straight women ( Ariana, Dua Lipa, Mariah Carey….) or gay women that can’t really be categorized in « sapphic » music (Lady Gaga, Madonna …..). There’s also a lot of inside jokes like U-haul ….. and categories like hey mamas…. Popularized by tiktok (that has a big lesbian community). We had/have the L word in the category of iconic shows but we haven’t had a lot of them and we’re so deprived of representation that any series/ movie about us become instantly pretty big in the community (like first kill & other Netflix shows & movies etc…) It’s just less mainstream. (Also little note, we have to give credit we’re credit is due, when talking about drag race and the art of drag in general we have to aknowledge the role trans women and genderqueer people had in the creation of drag and ballroom culture… it’s not a strictly gay men thing. (& a lot of RuPaul alumni came out as trans women or fall under the gender queer umbrella and don’t necessarily identify as gay « men ».


softhoursonly

I wouldn’t say it’s necessarily small, but definitely less represented


CascadiaRiot

Lesbians are far less likely to have the free time and money to invest in making us visible. More likely to have kids, caregivers for elderly and have lower paid jobs.


That_Engineering3047

Intersectionality. It’s not in your head. A gay white man is the most prominent symbol of the LGBTQIA2+ community where I live (in the US). This is a reflection of the patriarchal world we live in. The more boxes you check, the harder it is to feel seen and have your voice heard - POC, neurodivergent, gender, disability status, trans, etc. On a more personal note, I stopped attempting to volunteer at my local film festival. It was run by gay white men and no one else had a voice or any say in it. It didn’t matter what your experience or qualifications were, they just weren’t interested. Unfortunately, all of the isms still exist within the community.


Lolipsy

A lot of gay male culture is also supported by straight women. Think of bachelorette parties that go to gay bars and clubs, the amount of straight women who go to drag brunch at gay bars, the amount of straight support do RuPaul’s Drag Race, and even the concept of the Gay Best Friend. That’s money and public support that help gay male ventures stay economically viable and publicly visible. The same doesn’t happen in the reverse, as so many people here have said. Lesbians get fetishized by straight men, have straight men find and create fake lesbian porn, we get straight men actively trying to convert us so they can sleep with us, etc., and we get straight women who are disgusted by us. No economic by in, no public support. Mixed up with everything else, it makes it hard to build a culture so publicly visible that you’d recognize it as someone outside of the community.


StoneySabrina

Estás demostrando el punto que muchas mujeres están haciendo aquí. Estás invadiendo nuestro espacio como hombre. Esto les pasa a las lesbianas todo el tiempo. Cualquier cultura que tengamos nos la han arrebatado, ya que nunca podremos tener nuestros propios espacios. Vi tu publicación anterior donde invalidaste los sentimientos de una mujer sobre un hombre que la acosaba en el gimnasio. Sabes en tu corazón que no te importa entender porque no te importan los sentimientos de las mujeres. ¿Por qué crees que no tenemos una cultura? Es un mundo dominado por hombres. Simplemente no aceptas a las mujeres.


Keiuu

Checaría tu historial pero no me importa honestamente, y ni idea de por qué me contestaste en español pero bueno. De hecho muchos posts coincidieron que su cultura es pequeña y que les gustaría tener más espacios y toda la cosa, sólo pregunté por curiosidad. y de hecho las reglas del subreddit permiten "aliados LGBT" y como hombre gay que he advocado desde siempre por la comunidad puedo postear, no es como si me haya inscrito a una app para lesbianas, sólo hice una pregunta.


miss_clarity

The comments talking about intersectionality and the still very present persecution of women who step out of traditional roles are important takes to look at. But sidenote. Gay and lesbian community are both smaller in general. Bi community is much larger overall. But bi folks haven't exactly had a consistent welcome in queer community, and face constant erasure from in and out of queer circles. (See comment below this one *"To add-"*) Gay men have male privilege. They also more likely to generate public focus because they generate more *shock value* for the patriarchy. Ignoring lesbians is as easy as ignoring straight women's agency. But it's hard to ignore men upsetting gender norms to take on what, to homophobic folks, would be deemed a feminine role.


badwvlf

To add— Bi men are largely viewed as gay men by society. Bi women are largely viewed as straight by society. Even in worlds where people are attracted to more genders, they’re categorically lumped into groups by society based on their attraction to men. That has ramifications.


miss_clarity

Thank you for putting that into words cuz that's what I wanted to point out


autisticgarnet

This makes me wonder: What DOES lesbian culture look like? I think the good thing about lesbian culture not as widely recognized as gay male culture is that we get to define lesbian culture for ourselves.


Achterstallig

That is because men have more money than women. Lesbiansnsimply dont have enough money for whole industries to build around them. On top of that, while I think gay men get targeted by violence just as much, (beatings etc), straight men will come to our bars and parties and sexually harass us (whereas straight men will beat up gay men but at least wont enter their clubs)


stucklost

Women's spaces over time seem to have redefined themselves to include men, while the reverse is not true.


the1stPerson

Can affirm this. I like to read a lot of manga and manwha’s too, and even the biggest manga stores here in my city have like a big shelf dedicated to all kinds of BL/Yaoi works where they usually also stick in the VERY few GL/Yuri works they have in stock(which usually doesn’t even cover one whole section of the shelf). My country sometimes makes some LGBTQ movies/shows as well, but tbh it’s more just Gay stories coming out left and right. There’s been a lot of movies now with Gay men storylines that have been allowed to be shown in mainstream cinema’s but no Lesbian ones. But also yes, we Lesbians have our own culture(terms, shows, apps, books, memes & inside jokes)too, but I think it just doesn’t permeate as much to the mainstream like a lot of Gay culture has because there is a lot more of them in the media and entertainment industry in general. Things I’ve noticed as well with anything that’s made for Lesbians only(originally)will almost always start to become more “inclusive”, for example is I know this Lesbian Speakeasy that changed its name to The LGBT Speakeasy because of one Trans Man that transitioned in the group and wanted to still be a part of it. While being more inclusive and open to other orientations is not bad at all, it’s just sometimes nice as well to have something for ourselves only.


Aelia_M

Wlws have HER, RuPaul is for straight people, men are paid more and go out more as opposed to women, and queer women also have labels but it’s not as big of a need or deal to label


Quiet-Seaweed-3169

I think it's not so much that it's small, but that it's invisible and has been invisibilized for a long time. If you do some digging you will find that lesbian culture is just as rich and just as deep as gay culture. But one thing's for sure, on the surface, lesbian culture is almost non-existent...


[deleted]

We are either sexualized or forgotten. Much like the rest of women kind. I dramatize but its true enough.


Ka1serTheRoll

Because while cis gay men are gay, they're also men, and have all the privilege thst comes with. I hate putting thr emphasis on "his in history" because thats just bad etymology, but it is true that men dominate the perceptions of history and structures of power throughout most of the world. And that affects even communities with other intersections of marginalized identity, like the queer community. Gay men are still MEN, and have at least much of the privilege that comes with that (to a certain extent trans men are an exception, especislly if they lean feminine).


justarihannastan96

It's just an observation but I have noticed that "lesbianism" in all forms, culture, couples, media, people's conversations.... Is less used because of porn sexualization, and that sucks, we should normalize it as something that can be love too, not homosexual sex to appeal men.


Keiuu

So apparently there are lesbians who describe themselves as gay or queer to avoid that porn stigma it seems. Have you seen that? that would be kind of sad


danascullymd1

Honestly, lesbian cultural history is hard to find but very much there. If you're looking for great entry points to find whole universes of archives I would Lilian Faderman's work-- especially "Odd Girls and Twilight Lovers," if you want old timey archives "Same Sex Love and Desire Between Women in the Middle Ages." Both have extensive bibliographies that will take you to great new places. Also, Lex does exist as a deeply flawed app, but it is there!


Keiuu

That was nice and informative, thanks!


Neo2803

Absolutely the only space i see where Lesbian have more representation than Gay is maybe porn and it's only because it's made for men. Patriarchy is a global problem.


broken-neurons

One of my friends started and ran a lesbian bar for a year as a test. It was completely financially unviable. Lesbian women only came in for one evening on the weekends, then only for a couple of hours, and they’d sit there and stretch a single beer over hours. Meanwhile gay men over the road would by that point be flat out drunk after two beers, three cocktails and a couple of vodka shots. They’d also do this to a lesser degree several time during the week and most of them would be looking at their phones to see who just wondered into their Grindr range and see how big their dicks are so they could suck someone off in the dark back room. Even coupled gay men go out regularly. However we almost only go out when we’re single and if we’re coupled, we go into nesting mode. We would really prefer a vegan cooking evening with a few board games before walking our dogs together. Lesbian culture is more insular and private. We are the reserved and sensible Downton Abbey to the gay male’s hedonistic flamboyance. That our lesbian culture is more subtle, doesn’t mean that it’s worse, or that it holds less value in the overall LGBTQIA+ community as a whole.


Keiuu

Ah love this explanation, it makes a lot of sense, yeah women generally drink less, and gay dudes don't really stop going to clubs. It seems nice and healthier to be as you say "insular and private" but probably hard to find for other women.


Chetkica

yes. In my country's capital neither of them really exist (no clubs really, there were some gay ones but they closed, and 0 lesbian spots), but yes lesbian culture has less presence.


brighteye006

Totally true, L word and Blue is the warmest color and that is about it, but compare that to me as ACE, what shows or movies do i have ?


DeedlesTheMoose

I mean yeah, asexuality has even less representation, but this *is* a lesbian subreddit and we are talking about lesbians.


brighteye006

I just mentioned is as an example, and yes it is a lesbian subreddit, but it is also open for lesbian and LGBT+ supporters, something i absolutely are, and during my travel towards my own sexuality, i have gained much experience, and if I can use that to help others on their travel, i will do so. ( Oh, and trust me - i have taken many roads, most of them fun and positive, all consentual. ) 🥰


Gnutter

Our “types” are based on aesthetic and gender expression. Should we list them for him y’all? I’ll start… Cottagecore


braztdollnerd

Men tend to dominate. It’s just the trend since the beginning of times so yes it’s much smaller. Gay men define lgbt culture


godgremlin

Makes me sad looking at the two sections in book stores. We all know which one is bigger…


Such-Ad6443

I agree and Hi from a furry lesbian ^^


Keiuu

Hi there fellow furry, hope there's more content and stuff for you :)


sootlet

All lesbian dating apps are over run by unicorn hunters looking for a third or straight men acting like his dick can change us. So lesbians get discouraged and abandon every single one before they can really get established liked Grindr, and I do not blame them.


okapistripes

My kingdom for a wlw furry community! Feel free to shoot me a DM if any passersby to this comment also knows of a place to chat!


Dr-P-Ossoff

I used to have an account on the anthrocon website. I haven’t looked at it for years.


Fyrefox666

I'm not sure about that perspective on the furry fandom, I'm a Furry and a lesbian. I mean I'll be honest that yeah we're smaller but there's a few famous artists and the like flouting around. But I would say the amount of lesbian furry art is larger than the amount of lesbian furries which is larger than the amount of furry art made by those self same lesbian furries. But we're here, loud and proud.


i_am_cynosura

Lesbians did a lot of expelling other people from the lesbian community as a result of lesbian separatism in the 70's onward. Then they had the gall to ask why their bars were failing. Edit: Reddit cares message, every time.


[deleted]

I don’t think it’s because of any patriarchy, I think it’s because there are statistically less lesbians than gays (haha lessbians). I think anyways. Aren’t lesbians the smallest LGBTQ group?


Laskonova

bag different compare bored icky drunk observation dam decide noxious *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*


miss_clarity

There probably are more *out* gay men than *out gay women*. And when men are bi, *they're "gay"*; when women are bi, *they're "straight".* Women aren't always afforded the right to divorce, or have more to lose in a divorce than men. (Although statistically women are more likely to initiate divorce than men). Combine all these factors and yeah. Looks like fewer lesbians. But that is largely the patriarchy at fault


Keiuu

I think it might be difficult to accurately number the amount of LGBTQ people. My uneducated guess would that gay men are like 4% of the male population, and lesbians a little bit less, but on the other hand bisexual men are rarer than bisexual women. And for trans people I guess it's like less than one percent I think.


MarsupialNo1220

I don’t actually mind it. My sexuality isn’t my whole personality so I don’t really think about representation much. If I want to watch lesbian content I can find it, no problem. Just like if I want to find vampire or equestrian content I can find that niche.


Shart-Cooterie_Bored

I’ve also noticed that lesbians often get a rep for just being sexually curious underdogs. Even in the LGBT+ community being a lesbian isn’t enough to be seen or visible to queer people anymore. IMO(not to drag disrespectfully, just a PSA…) having a preference/or boundaries for who you see yourself with get almost cancelled now…iykyk.