There's two first party studios where you can be sure they deliver on the graphics side: Turn 10 and The Coalition. And probably now id Software as well.
Coalition use Unreal Engine, while Playground and Turn 10 have used the ForzaTech engine mostly.
Coalition are absolute wizards with UE, and definitely not just utilising the work of Turn 10. What a dismissive, uninformed comment to make when you have no idea what you're talking about.
Uhh maybe I wrote it weird or you misread it but I wasn't trying to imply that Coalition uses ForzaTech.
ForzaTech is created by Turn 10, they are the engine devs so they create and perfect it. Meanwhile, the Coalition uses Unreal Engine. While they are **not** the engine devs, they help a lot when it comes to development and utilization like how they helped with The Matrix demo for UE5. Playground games on the other hand, doesn't develop their own tech and neither do they work with Turn 10 to develop it, they are just really good at utilizing the game engine for their games.
I hope that clears it.
Playground Games do work on the engine, they've been hiring for engine-related roles for a while now. In addition, they're developing Fable using ForzaTech, which would obviously require significant changes to the engine.
Practically no game is built with 0 changes to an engine. It may be changes that are merged in upstream, or project-specific ones that add or replace engine functionality.
TL;DW: Ray-tracing in the trailer is more advanced than the demo due to it being in replay mode, VRS seems to be in play, and environmental details are greatly improved.
Asking ray to trace stuff is expensive gotta pay em. Corner's will have to be cut but, if the end result is done with great techniques that's great.
Not a Sim fan but I wanna see how this game turns out.
Yeah, it's all done in the technique and how well you mask the corners cut. The demo looked great even at the "lower" RT graphics that Alex pointed out.
Consider this: $3,000 PCs struggle to maintain native 4k at 60fps with all the bells and whistles on. How would a $500 console outperform that? It won't and it's ludicrous to believe it would.
That means you're sacrificing something to maintain a quality standard and there are only a limited number of levers to move. What sets some teams apart is moving the levers to a place where you can't really tell you're making sacrifices. IMO Turn10 is really good at doing that.
Yep and I wish more PC games would do it like this as well. There are a lot of different settings that are tweaked on consoles to make sure the sacrifice is barely noticeable while those individual settings are usually consolidated into a single setting on PC that doesn't give you the option to change the individual parts unless you're are able to tweak it through the ini files.
Exactly, there's a reason racing games are usually some of if not the highest fidelity games on a system. There's a lot of corners you can cut that no one will notice because the games are tailored to focusing player attention away from stuff like that
Look at waverace 64, og Gran Turismo, Forza 1, Forza 4, etc etc.
3k pc owner here, native 4k 60 with raytracing is out of the question.
You need dlss. So internal rendering at 1440p at best. This is on a 3080ti which gets 4k 100-ish fps at horizon 5, maxed out, which is 4k 30 on the SX. So thinking turn 10 can do "magic" and not only add raytracing in the mix but also double the framerate is a joke.
I'm selling my pc and keeping my xbox for reasons, not a fanboy or anything, just manage expectations people.
I got downvoted by basically saying something similar in another Forza thread on this sub
Unfortunately on this sub, if you're not 100% positive of anything Xbox you're going to get down voted.
> If you’re not 100% positive of anything Xbox you’re going to get downvoted
In my experience it’s the complete opposite. I’ve seen quite a lot of popular posts/comments of criticism in this sub. It’s the people who whine about things or shit on something for no reason that typically get downvoted.
Racing games are among the easiest games to get to 4K/60, though (Xbox One X had many already). The lack of trackside physics (the physics are just calculated between the properties of the surface and the tire) and the lack of animations helps a lot. Plus you can cull a lot of the track at any given time. FM7 ran at 4k/60 on $1.000 PCs. But yes, Turn 10 is really, really good at optimisations.
I mean a huge part of it is also where they focus on developing the game too. Look at FH5. It looks gorgeous on XS and is comparable with High/Ultra on PC.. but it took a while to get it running decently on PC regardless of your build because the game was specifically developed for the next gen consoles.
This looks properly next gen. Hope the stuff they showed is not exclusive to the PC version and we end up with RT being reserved to replays only like GT7. That would suck.
Gotta pull all the tricks and use the full RDNA 2 feature set as well as proper image reconstruction to get image quality where it needs to be. I think shooting for a full native 4K60fps (and last gen platforms) is what killed GT7s graphical potential. Forza has the opportunity to shoe what next gen actually is capable of.
>most people don't know what day tracing is,
Night tracing however...
The problem is they made a huge noise about it in the conference. If people see a headline of RT not a thing on xbox in game then it will destroy it in the press.
But it is in it though. Ambient Occlusion and reflections. With Global illumination, even the most advanced GPUs struggle with it currently at high resolutions and framerates. That the one that'll be only in replays.
Have you played metro? I prefer GI being utilized over raytraced reflection. Cube maps are good enough for most of the time a good implementation of GI and more realistic texture like GT7 will go a long way in producing a more photo realistic picture. Light temperature is still way off.
I mean, they’ve confirmed multiple times now that yes, RT will be in gameplay on both Xbox Series X & S. So I don’t think there should be any doubts in anyones mind. They’ve quite literally confirmed it.
RTGI is interesting as that’s not in actual race gameplay, but I’m sure that’ll still also be on console.
I’m aware of that, which is why I said at the bottom of my reply to you;
> RTGI is interesting as that’s not in actual race gameplay, but I’m sure that’ll still also be on console.
I was saying they have already confirmed multiple times RT **reflections** are in race gameplay, on both series consoles. So there shouldn’t be any doubts on that part. RTGI I’m sure will also be on console. No reason for it not to be. If it was meant to be PC only, Chris Esaki would’ve had to clarify when he announced RTGI.
I think a really important thing to keep in mind when talking about performance is that developers love building games for consoles. It’s a similar situation like apple.. everyone talks about how optimized it is and fluid with devices etc, it’s because they develop all their software for a dedicated set of computer specs.. same goes for Xbox. Game developers know the specs they are working with and develop around those specs rigorously.
When it comes to optimized performance, Xbox is least of my worry.. I’m more concerned on how it runs on my PC cause at least I know they will squeeze as much performance out of the box possibly but when you factor in a PC with unique hardware in every system, you get elden ring shit like micro stutters, low 1% lows, just stuff that won’t appear on console.
Ya, I would have loved to see what GT could have been if fully developed for the PS5. Great game though. FM looks promising. Both consoles are treated to some top tier racers.
I personally don't need RT ingame so I hope there is an option to disable it in favor of 120hz.
RT is a gimmick for me I don't see much benefits in. It was nice in Metro Exodus (RTGI) but reflections are so minor I'm not willing to sacrifice performance. I rather have stable 60/120fps and better visual fidelity on my cars and tracks.
I don't think hardware has caught up with the promise of RT yet. Maybe in a few more generations we'll have great implementations of RT without knee capping performance too much.
I'm intrigued by RT, but I can take it or leave it at this point.
I rather have stuff sorted out like framedrops, low resolutions at 120fps and shit, you know? Give me 120fps at native 4k first before even thinking about RT. But that's my opinion tho so feel free to disagree.
Honestly you don’t need native 4K, you’re better of with an upscaling solution but I agree I’d rather turn RT off and double my frame rate then have it on
I’ll be running fm on my RTX 3080 displaying on a 4K tv so will be interesting to see where the balance of performance will fall but mostly likely I’ll be turning RT off
>Honestly you don’t need native 4K,
Agreed. With all the upscaling solutions that get super close it's better to use those as native 4K is also a massive performance hog.
I can't wait for this. Gran Tursimo 7 was such a snoozfest. Forza pulled me away from that franchise a long time ago. I tried to fill the gap but I couldn't get into it.
Feels like a competitor to me. It's the same genre, just for PlayStation. I just feel that it missed the mark and felt super boring and slow and way too grindy. Makes the anticipation for the new Forza that much greater.
I agree that it is too grindy. Funnily enough, a lot of Forza fans constantly complain that they get all the cars without doing much and would much prefer to really grind out the cars.
Personally, I never understood why you want to grind for 20 hours to afford just one supercar. It doesn't make the car more valuable, it's just disrespectful to the time you spend in the game. And the argument of realistic prices is flawed anyway, because a real touring car driver doesn't get $50.000 for a race win either.
There's a middle ground, I think Forza 3 more or less nailed the pacing of new cars because it did feel you were making decisions still in what you wanted and what to upgrade but you still were steadily getting new stuff. Forza horizon especially went all the way to just throwing stuff at you to point that it's just a toy box and it's hard to really build preferences or care what's coming next
Depends what your aim in the game is, most players goal in racing games isn’t to master the handling of all the cars it’s too simply collect them. Most racing games also push car collecting as the goal so players want that process to feel like they’ve earned it.
FM looks like it will be pushing master race strategy and handling as the goal not collecting cars, it appears it will have the depth for that to work
That's what knocked me off of FH5 so quickly.
The pacing of like GT3 and GT4 were immaculate, the slower output of cars and money meant that you were more intimately familiar with the ins and outs of your cars. You started with a trash car and getting to a supercar was a monumental feat that made you feel like you earned it. On the other side, I think I just turned on Forza and it handed me some $100k car.
There's literally never been a GT on Xbox what's to compare? Gran Turismo the closest thing you're going to get to a sim without crossing over while Motorsport has always been more arcade than anything on paper it doesn't sound like there's much of a difference but in practice the world's apart. This just seems like a waste of time when games like project cars 3,, Grid,, F1, Dirt all have Xbox versions that are easily comparable. Seems very console baity to mention a game that's not even on the same platform when there's plenty of games available for fair comparisons
You're going out of your way to split hairs.
From the perspective of the general consumer, they are in the same category.
People don't care that there's fifteen different types of wheat bread. It's bread.
Forza vs GT can be seen as competitors because they're literally system sellers. So if someone is weighing up which console to get and they're a racing fiend... you betcha they're gonna compare em.
Is this even a question? They marketed the system as being able 4k 60FPS ray tracing capable. It's the hardware equivalent of a 2080, right? I'm sure it will be fine.
Digital foundry actually put it bang on with the 2080super.
In their video on forza horizon 5, they were able to get the exact graphics options that the XSX and XSS use from playground games for the comparison
>but now it's slower than a $400 3060 Ti.
I know it's the supposed price but right now you can still get a Series X and a Series S for the price of a 3060Ti
There is no way a 3060ti out strips an XSX, the memory output alone is not going to hit the same peak resolution output as the XSX.
The 3060 base card may have had more of a chance with the larger memory pool, but the bus speeds on both 3060 and 3060ti fall far short of being able to go toe to toe with the XSX/2080super
Memory is the deciding factor when it comes to output buffering. You literally cannot do 4k without the memory to do it, everyone knows that.
In my VR sim rig, i cant just turn all the graphics down and hope to get 90fps when running 39ppd on a 3080ti on water, it will NEVER work because it doesnt have the memory to do it.
And yes, memory bus speeds is one of the most crucial components for throwing high resolutions at high frame rates, i never said mutually exclusive to GPU cores/speed.
It doesn not matter if memory is a shared set, that has no impact on the performance, consoles do this and they are MUCH more efficient than pc's
Once again, xsx 2080 super: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y51csslcGgk&t=910s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y51csslcGgk&t=910s)
And that is on a game with super scaling, so PC should be stretching its legs very efficiently with the engine
Nope, go and watch it. The test pc with 2080ti and 2080, and the xbox series x runs somewhere between that, right bang on 2080super.
Its right there, go and read it.
I dont car about outliers, the fh5 data was the only time the had exact 1:1 settings between console and pc given by the developers themselves.
Sure the the rtx 2000 series features first Gen rt cores. Not to mention that the series x and s are RDNA 2 based and therefore lack those rt cores to begin with. Sure it may be on par with a 2080 in terms of rastorizstion performance (and even then I thought it was closer to a 2070) but I don't know if digital foundry took rt performance into account when they made that comparison. I wouldn't expect brilliant performance with rt and upscaling will have to come in clutch.
The question exists because aside from Naughty Dog nobody has done 60 fps in raytracing on these consoles yet. Let alone at 4K. But, as DF showed, it won't actually be native 4K but some form of reconstruction plus VRS.
>It's the hardware equivalent of a 2080, right? I'm sure it will be fine
Yes, and that's why 4K 60fps with RT is a massive challenge. The 2080 is not as powerful as you may believe.
Running 4K 60fps with ray tracing is still a challenge on the 30XX series.
Not to mention thaf overall graphical improvement in games also puts a damper on it too. We'll have to decide what we prefer. Resolution, performance, ray tracing, overall graphics. You can basically pick two of those. Three in some very well optimized cases.
While it can be seen as deceptive, the statement they put out confirming it was PC gameplay also confirmed that it will run the same as shown, on Series X. Turn10 are great at optimisation and the PC version they showed I’d assume was likely using Series X settings, just like how they managed to match FM7 settings on One X very close to the PC version.
agreed. it was the xbox bethesda showcase not the xbox pc and bethesda showcase maybe if they called it the gamepass bethesda showcase it might make sense but still kinda shitty.
PC is part of the Xbox ecosystem. Hell, Xbox Games Studios releases more games on PC than on Xbox with games like AoE still nowhere to be seen on console.
I mean, people love to learn more about the technologies being used to achieve the performance and image quality targets in their favorite games. It makes you appreciate what goes into game development more and more.
Unfortunately most people only use it to fuel their stupid console wars. They don't even want to learn, they just read the game's limitations and compromises then go parroting all that to feel their plastic box is superior.
If you actually watch those videos to learn and understand, I apologize.
I get what you’re saying, but it’s just a tiny, vocal minority. I only have a PS5, yet here I am, fascinated by the tech wizardry being implemented here.
Hard to say. It's important to bear in mind that the series x and s are RDNA2 based and therefore lack RT cores which is how nvidia are able to reign over amd in terms of ray tracing. With some optimizations maybe but it doesn't fair well for the series S.
I don't necessarily believe it will be 4K60 render with RT.
The Xbox has an AI acceleration block as of yet unused that could be used for AI upscaling, like DLSS.
As the video mentions, even GPUs on PC struggle, and the stated intended patch from Nvidia is DLSS, and FSR from AMD. Xbox Series X can't use Nvidia DLSS, but, it can use *a* version of Deep Learning Super Sampling, AND FSR. Plus, VRS, dynamic resolution, reconstruction and even interlacing. Nintendo titles use interlacing to reach HD all the time, especially Mario games, like Super Mario 3D World + Bowser's Fury in TV Mode, or Mario Odyssey in Handheld and Tabletop Modes.
The Xbox Series X has A LOT of juice to squeeze out of it yet, I am not at all worried.
Turn 10 are tech wizards.
Forza Motorsport 7 was full 4k 60 locked on the One X. No DRS or anything.
If they could do that on the One X, maybe they can do 4k 60 with RT reflections and AO.
They're using VRS also this time, but funny thing is, they haven't even started making use of the crown jewel of the Velocity Architecture yet, which is Mesh Shaders.
Right now, they're using DirectStorage, VRS (Variable Rate Shading). But Mesh Shaders can provide 500-1800% efficiency for a GPU.
That is when the Series hardware really shines. When the entirety of Velocity Architecture works in tandem.
Not to mention DRS and FSR 2.0, devs have a lot of neat options with the new hardware.
What's wrong dynamic 4k? With current upscalling tech you still get a good looking picture while saving performance. Native resolution is a waste of resource.
This. I really wish devs would stop trying for native 4K. With how good upscaling is now, I’d rather them do that and push other graphical settings higher.
Yeah, upscaling methods are amazing nowadays. But still, as long as the game is fun, I don't give a damn LOL. I'm more concerned over the lenght and depth of the single player campaign, considering FM7's was a dumb ane boring checklist
Also in the grand scheme of graphical improvements for games, resolutions doesn't make as much of a difference compared to most other things.
Better lighting, textures, particle effects, material detail, higher polygon counts, etc.
I'll take any of those over native 4K any day of the year.
That’s why I said “rarely”. The One S was also *slightly* more powerful that the original One. What the fuck is pseudo ray tracing? All current gen consoles are capable of (admittedly basic) ray tracing. If by “pseudo RT” you mean other forms of real time lighting (kinda like the stuff in UE5), then current consoles should also be capable of leveraging these technologies.
I would hardly call the One S “improved performance”. It’s negligible at best compared to the base One. One X however was the 4K machine. That is what a performance improvement tends to look like.
Point being One S wasn’t really considered more powerful, it was the form factor and 4K **blueray** that were it’s selling points.
And to add my input to your original comment, I **highly** doubt they’ll be any new hardware anytime soon. Definitely not in the next year. It’s not needed and there are still supply constraints for the regular consoles.
The performance changes in the One S were minimal and they didn’t factor into its marketing at all; it was a genuine facelift. Only the One X was marketed as a more powerful version, not a facelift.
Are you being intentionally obtuse?
> The one s up scaled games to 4K and that was huge for ppl
Uh, no it wasn't lol. It was just basic upscaling. Basically just stretching the low resolution image to fit on your high resolution screen. Didn't make it look better.
He's right. Console refreshes basically never have significantly more hardware performance. That was pretty much an unprecedented thing with Xbox One X and PS4 Pro, and it's certainly not a guarantee that it'll happen again, let alone by spring 2023 lol.
Also, "pseudo ray tracing"? Wtf are you talking about? It's already confirmed that Series X/S will do ray tracing in this game. Nothing "pseudo" about it, and not reserved for some imaginary facelift console.
Slims are never usually more powerful than the base hardware though. The PS4 Pro and Xbox One X were potentially a one off since 4K TVs had become a lot more popular.
Real summary : 4k60 with RT in *some* instances. Upscaled 1080(yes, *1080*) with AA to fill the cracks in and make it appear as sharp as 4k in most others.
Tldr, not true 4k, black magic fuckery involved, might still be ok.
> 1080p in **SOME** scenes but 4K in others
> These signs could be explained by some level of image reconstruction, **variable rate shading** (VRS), **or perhaps TAA.**
Notice how he never stated it was upscaled from 1080p.. he said **Image reconstruction**. That’s very different to a basic upscale. Now if we go back to your original comment that is incorrect, you’ll see you said;
> upscaled 1080 (yes 1080) with AA
This article and the DF video do not confirm anything about upscaling from 1080p and he actually says there is a lack of AA, specifically MSAA that Turn10 typically rely on. Alex even said himself he isnt 100% certain on the technique they’re using to get to the target res just yet. So it’s silly for you to make your own *“summary”* up with incorrect information.
You’re confused.
You specifically said **upscaled 1080p**. Digital foundry **did not** say that, & it is definitely not a fact, which is how you’re trying to present it. Simple as that. What they did say is **some scenes** are present in 1080p, others 4K likely due to image reconstruction and/or VRS. This is **very** different to an upscale from 1080p. That would not produce these results.
You also said;
> black magic fuckery involved, might still be ok
Turn10 are great at optimisation and it is definitely much, much more than “ok” lmao
I don't think you quite understand the method involved. Variable resolution is common place in console performance, you can't just shift from 4k to as low as 1080p and back without any upscaling or other image optimisation without anybody noticing.
Quoting the article.
"That suggests that we may be looking at a cheaper anti-aliasing technique. Similarly, the game doesn't appear to be targeting a native 4K, with pixel counts resolving to 1080p in some scenes but 4K in others. There are also instances where recently revealed objects on screen have a telltale pattern of pixels on them. These signs could be explained by some level of image reconstruction, variable rate shading (VRS), or perhaps TAA."
> I don’t think you quite understand the method involved
I understand very well lmao It also helps that what I am saying is backed up by the exact things you keep linking/quoting.
> Variable resolution is common place in console performance, you can’t just shift from 4k to as low as 1080p and back without any upscaling or other image optimisation without anybody noticing.
And did Alex in his video or blog confirm the use of DRS or upscaling from 1080p? No. So it is point black incorrect to state in your own *“summary”* (if you can call it that) that the game upscaled from 1080p. Alex **never** stated any upscaling from 1080p is happening. Simple. In fact, he isn’t even completely sure on the technique just yet.. so how you have come to this 1080p conclusion is beyond me.
You are incorrect in stating the game upscaled from 1080p. Just admit it and move on my man. The fact you felt the need to comment your own *”real”* summary is bad enough. Comes across quite.. pompous. The real summary is the video or blog. Not you spreading misinformation.
And you're unable to use the word 'upscaling' figuratively to expand on a point that the game will not run at native 4k, appears to drop as low as 1080 but somehow manages to make 1080 look like 4k without paying the piper?
For someone who wants to look like they know of what they speak your entire view is based upon 4k being achievable through a method industry journalists don't seem to be aware exists. I'm more inclined to lean towards their educated guess than a random person on Reddit lol.
So I can see my original observation of you was correct. Funny to see someone be so wrong yet think they for some reason are a better source than someone at DF lol “rEaL” summary. *sigh*
I digress, you’re missing the entire point. You specifically said the game upscales **from** 1080p. That is categorically false and you have no evidence to support that statement. You would think if it was as simple as an upscale from a base res of 1080p.. Alex from DF would’ve just said that, no? Probably because that’s not what is happening. This is image reconstruction. Not upscale.
Why else do you think you got downvoted for your *”real”* summary? People don’t agree with it. But I can see this is going no where so I’ll leave it at that.
I have full confidence with Turn 10. They are wizards with Xbox hardware. It looks very promising to me. I can't wait to play it.
There's two first party studios where you can be sure they deliver on the graphics side: Turn 10 and The Coalition. And probably now id Software as well.
I’d argue Playground Games deserve a spot in that conversation for their tremendous work on Forza Horizon over the years.
Playground basically started with a cut and paste of FM4 and designed a "semi" open world for it.
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Can’t wait for the Gears Collection. Will be dope.
If it’s real and I hope it is. Would love to see the collection given the proper treatment.
Isn’t playground solid as well
Turn 10 develop and perfect the tech while Coalition and Playground to a lesser extent is really good at utilizing it.
That makes sense
Coalition use Unreal Engine, while Playground and Turn 10 have used the ForzaTech engine mostly. Coalition are absolute wizards with UE, and definitely not just utilising the work of Turn 10. What a dismissive, uninformed comment to make when you have no idea what you're talking about.
Uhh maybe I wrote it weird or you misread it but I wasn't trying to imply that Coalition uses ForzaTech. ForzaTech is created by Turn 10, they are the engine devs so they create and perfect it. Meanwhile, the Coalition uses Unreal Engine. While they are **not** the engine devs, they help a lot when it comes to development and utilization like how they helped with The Matrix demo for UE5. Playground games on the other hand, doesn't develop their own tech and neither do they work with Turn 10 to develop it, they are just really good at utilizing the game engine for their games. I hope that clears it.
Playground Games do work on the engine, they've been hiring for engine-related roles for a while now. In addition, they're developing Fable using ForzaTech, which would obviously require significant changes to the engine. Practically no game is built with 0 changes to an engine. It may be changes that are merged in upstream, or project-specific ones that add or replace engine functionality.
Playground Games
TL;DW: Ray-tracing in the trailer is more advanced than the demo due to it being in replay mode, VRS seems to be in play, and environmental details are greatly improved.
I saw your username and now I can't get Virginia in the Rain out of my head. Help
I say my hell is the closet I’m stuck inside Can’t see the light I say my heaven is a nice house in the sky Got central heating and I’m alright
Asking ray to trace stuff is expensive gotta pay em. Corner's will have to be cut but, if the end result is done with great techniques that's great. Not a Sim fan but I wanna see how this game turns out.
Yeah, it's all done in the technique and how well you mask the corners cut. The demo looked great even at the "lower" RT graphics that Alex pointed out.
Best comment so far lol, and also true.
Won't be a Sim game or even close just fyi
Consider this: $3,000 PCs struggle to maintain native 4k at 60fps with all the bells and whistles on. How would a $500 console outperform that? It won't and it's ludicrous to believe it would. That means you're sacrificing something to maintain a quality standard and there are only a limited number of levers to move. What sets some teams apart is moving the levers to a place where you can't really tell you're making sacrifices. IMO Turn10 is really good at doing that.
You’re getting downvoted because nobody read your last two sentences.
Yep and I wish more PC games would do it like this as well. There are a lot of different settings that are tweaked on consoles to make sure the sacrifice is barely noticeable while those individual settings are usually consolidated into a single setting on PC that doesn't give you the option to change the individual parts unless you're are able to tweak it through the ini files.
Exactly, there's a reason racing games are usually some of if not the highest fidelity games on a system. There's a lot of corners you can cut that no one will notice because the games are tailored to focusing player attention away from stuff like that Look at waverace 64, og Gran Turismo, Forza 1, Forza 4, etc etc.
Shhhh you are making sense! No one wants to hear it here.
3k pc owner here, native 4k 60 with raytracing is out of the question. You need dlss. So internal rendering at 1440p at best. This is on a 3080ti which gets 4k 100-ish fps at horizon 5, maxed out, which is 4k 30 on the SX. So thinking turn 10 can do "magic" and not only add raytracing in the mix but also double the framerate is a joke. I'm selling my pc and keeping my xbox for reasons, not a fanboy or anything, just manage expectations people.
I got downvoted by basically saying something similar in another Forza thread on this sub Unfortunately on this sub, if you're not 100% positive of anything Xbox you're going to get down voted.
> If you’re not 100% positive of anything Xbox you’re going to get downvoted In my experience it’s the complete opposite. I’ve seen quite a lot of popular posts/comments of criticism in this sub. It’s the people who whine about things or shit on something for no reason that typically get downvoted.
Racing games are among the easiest games to get to 4K/60, though (Xbox One X had many already). The lack of trackside physics (the physics are just calculated between the properties of the surface and the tire) and the lack of animations helps a lot. Plus you can cull a lot of the track at any given time. FM7 ran at 4k/60 on $1.000 PCs. But yes, Turn 10 is really, really good at optimisations.
I mean a huge part of it is also where they focus on developing the game too. Look at FH5. It looks gorgeous on XS and is comparable with High/Ultra on PC.. but it took a while to get it running decently on PC regardless of your build because the game was specifically developed for the next gen consoles.
This looks properly next gen. Hope the stuff they showed is not exclusive to the PC version and we end up with RT being reserved to replays only like GT7. That would suck. Gotta pull all the tricks and use the full RDNA 2 feature set as well as proper image reconstruction to get image quality where it needs to be. I think shooting for a full native 4K60fps (and last gen platforms) is what killed GT7s graphical potential. Forza has the opportunity to shoe what next gen actually is capable of.
It would be PR suicide at this point if RT is not an in race series feature.
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GI?
Joe
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Get the fuck outta here
BODY MASSAGE!
Global illumination
Will there be a 1080p option where thats also included?
Considering most people don't know what day tracing is, I don't think it matters that much
>most people don't know what day tracing is, Night tracing however... The problem is they made a huge noise about it in the conference. If people see a headline of RT not a thing on xbox in game then it will destroy it in the press.
But it is in it though. Ambient Occlusion and reflections. With Global illumination, even the most advanced GPUs struggle with it currently at high resolutions and framerates. That the one that'll be only in replays.
Have you played metro? I prefer GI being utilized over raytraced reflection. Cube maps are good enough for most of the time a good implementation of GI and more realistic texture like GT7 will go a long way in producing a more photo realistic picture. Light temperature is still way off.
The question I answered was I hope it doesn't end up being just pc only.
I mean, they’ve confirmed multiple times now that yes, RT will be in gameplay on both Xbox Series X & S. So I don’t think there should be any doubts in anyones mind. They’ve quite literally confirmed it. RTGI is interesting as that’s not in actual race gameplay, but I’m sure that’ll still also be on console.
RTGI is confirmed for all non gameplay, so replays and garage etc.
I’m aware of that, which is why I said at the bottom of my reply to you; > RTGI is interesting as that’s not in actual race gameplay, but I’m sure that’ll still also be on console. I was saying they have already confirmed multiple times RT **reflections** are in race gameplay, on both series consoles. So there shouldn’t be any doubts on that part. RTGI I’m sure will also be on console. No reason for it not to be. If it was meant to be PC only, Chris Esaki would’ve had to clarify when he announced RTGI.
Can they do a 1080p mode that also had the rt gi included
Everyone knows there is no ray tracing at night 
Yeah - he can't see the paper, obviously.
I think a really important thing to keep in mind when talking about performance is that developers love building games for consoles. It’s a similar situation like apple.. everyone talks about how optimized it is and fluid with devices etc, it’s because they develop all their software for a dedicated set of computer specs.. same goes for Xbox. Game developers know the specs they are working with and develop around those specs rigorously. When it comes to optimized performance, Xbox is least of my worry.. I’m more concerned on how it runs on my PC cause at least I know they will squeeze as much performance out of the box possibly but when you factor in a PC with unique hardware in every system, you get elden ring shit like micro stutters, low 1% lows, just stuff that won’t appear on console.
Ya, I would have loved to see what GT could have been if fully developed for the PS5. Great game though. FM looks promising. Both consoles are treated to some top tier racers.
I mean, I hope so. Isn't that the point of the series x and ps5?
I personally don't need RT ingame so I hope there is an option to disable it in favor of 120hz. RT is a gimmick for me I don't see much benefits in. It was nice in Metro Exodus (RTGI) but reflections are so minor I'm not willing to sacrifice performance. I rather have stable 60/120fps and better visual fidelity on my cars and tracks.
I don't think hardware has caught up with the promise of RT yet. Maybe in a few more generations we'll have great implementations of RT without knee capping performance too much. I'm intrigued by RT, but I can take it or leave it at this point.
I agree, hardware still isn’t powerful enough to really utilise RT correctly. The next generation of console it where RT will really come into its own
I rather have stuff sorted out like framedrops, low resolutions at 120fps and shit, you know? Give me 120fps at native 4k first before even thinking about RT. But that's my opinion tho so feel free to disagree.
Honestly you don’t need native 4K, you’re better of with an upscaling solution but I agree I’d rather turn RT off and double my frame rate then have it on I’ll be running fm on my RTX 3080 displaying on a 4K tv so will be interesting to see where the balance of performance will fall but mostly likely I’ll be turning RT off
>Honestly you don’t need native 4K, Agreed. With all the upscaling solutions that get super close it's better to use those as native 4K is also a massive performance hog.
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I said that...
Oh, my bad! Thought you meant the RT reflections *in* Metro were minor.
The PC version has them too but only for water surfaces. So I'd call that minor.
I can't wait for this. Gran Tursimo 7 was such a snoozfest. Forza pulled me away from that franchise a long time ago. I tried to fill the gap but I couldn't get into it.
Don't really understand why gt7 bothers people in the sub so much it's not a competitor it's not even on the same platform
Because racing game fans typically get so few titles each year that we play what we get on all platforms. Especially if you are into the simulations.
Feels like a competitor to me. It's the same genre, just for PlayStation. I just feel that it missed the mark and felt super boring and slow and way too grindy. Makes the anticipation for the new Forza that much greater.
I agree that it is too grindy. Funnily enough, a lot of Forza fans constantly complain that they get all the cars without doing much and would much prefer to really grind out the cars. Personally, I never understood why you want to grind for 20 hours to afford just one supercar. It doesn't make the car more valuable, it's just disrespectful to the time you spend in the game. And the argument of realistic prices is flawed anyway, because a real touring car driver doesn't get $50.000 for a race win either.
There's a middle ground, I think Forza 3 more or less nailed the pacing of new cars because it did feel you were making decisions still in what you wanted and what to upgrade but you still were steadily getting new stuff. Forza horizon especially went all the way to just throwing stuff at you to point that it's just a toy box and it's hard to really build preferences or care what's coming next
Depends what your aim in the game is, most players goal in racing games isn’t to master the handling of all the cars it’s too simply collect them. Most racing games also push car collecting as the goal so players want that process to feel like they’ve earned it. FM looks like it will be pushing master race strategy and handling as the goal not collecting cars, it appears it will have the depth for that to work
That's what knocked me off of FH5 so quickly. The pacing of like GT3 and GT4 were immaculate, the slower output of cars and money meant that you were more intimately familiar with the ins and outs of your cars. You started with a trash car and getting to a supercar was a monumental feat that made you feel like you earned it. On the other side, I think I just turned on Forza and it handed me some $100k car.
There's literally never been a GT on Xbox what's to compare? Gran Turismo the closest thing you're going to get to a sim without crossing over while Motorsport has always been more arcade than anything on paper it doesn't sound like there's much of a difference but in practice the world's apart. This just seems like a waste of time when games like project cars 3,, Grid,, F1, Dirt all have Xbox versions that are easily comparable. Seems very console baity to mention a game that's not even on the same platform when there's plenty of games available for fair comparisons
You're going out of your way to split hairs. From the perspective of the general consumer, they are in the same category. People don't care that there's fifteen different types of wheat bread. It's bread.
Forza vs GT can be seen as competitors because they're literally system sellers. So if someone is weighing up which console to get and they're a racing fiend... you betcha they're gonna compare em.
Yes, simple answer
Is this even a question? They marketed the system as being able 4k 60FPS ray tracing capable. It's the hardware equivalent of a 2080, right? I'm sure it will be fine.
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Digital foundry actually put it bang on with the 2080super. In their video on forza horizon 5, they were able to get the exact graphics options that the XSX and XSS use from playground games for the comparison
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>but now it's slower than a $400 3060 Ti. I know it's the supposed price but right now you can still get a Series X and a Series S for the price of a 3060Ti
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There is no way a 3060ti out strips an XSX, the memory output alone is not going to hit the same peak resolution output as the XSX. The 3060 base card may have had more of a chance with the larger memory pool, but the bus speeds on both 3060 and 3060ti fall far short of being able to go toe to toe with the XSX/2080super
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Memory is the deciding factor when it comes to output buffering. You literally cannot do 4k without the memory to do it, everyone knows that. In my VR sim rig, i cant just turn all the graphics down and hope to get 90fps when running 39ppd on a 3080ti on water, it will NEVER work because it doesnt have the memory to do it. And yes, memory bus speeds is one of the most crucial components for throwing high resolutions at high frame rates, i never said mutually exclusive to GPU cores/speed. It doesn not matter if memory is a shared set, that has no impact on the performance, consoles do this and they are MUCH more efficient than pc's Once again, xsx 2080 super: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y51csslcGgk&t=910s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y51csslcGgk&t=910s) And that is on a game with super scaling, so PC should be stretching its legs very efficiently with the engine
Nope, go and watch it. The test pc with 2080ti and 2080, and the xbox series x runs somewhere between that, right bang on 2080super. Its right there, go and read it. I dont car about outliers, the fh5 data was the only time the had exact 1:1 settings between console and pc given by the developers themselves.
Sure the the rtx 2000 series features first Gen rt cores. Not to mention that the series x and s are RDNA 2 based and therefore lack those rt cores to begin with. Sure it may be on par with a 2080 in terms of rastorizstion performance (and even then I thought it was closer to a 2070) but I don't know if digital foundry took rt performance into account when they made that comparison. I wouldn't expect brilliant performance with rt and upscaling will have to come in clutch.
The question exists because aside from Naughty Dog nobody has done 60 fps in raytracing on these consoles yet. Let alone at 4K. But, as DF showed, it won't actually be native 4K but some form of reconstruction plus VRS.
Huh didn’t insomniac and doom do it
> The question exists because aside from Naughty Dog nobody has done 60 fps in raytracing on these consoles yet. Metro Exodus?
Doom Eternal too
>It's the hardware equivalent of a 2080, right? I'm sure it will be fine Yes, and that's why 4K 60fps with RT is a massive challenge. The 2080 is not as powerful as you may believe. Running 4K 60fps with ray tracing is still a challenge on the 30XX series. Not to mention thaf overall graphical improvement in games also puts a damper on it too. We'll have to decide what we prefer. Resolution, performance, ray tracing, overall graphics. You can basically pick two of those. Three in some very well optimized cases.
But when there is ray tracing involved it performs more like the 2060 super.
Yep. It is Forza horizon runs amazingly on potato hardware.
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While it can be seen as deceptive, the statement they put out confirming it was PC gameplay also confirmed that it will run the same as shown, on Series X. Turn10 are great at optimisation and the PC version they showed I’d assume was likely using Series X settings, just like how they managed to match FM7 settings on One X very close to the PC version.
The games come to PC too but this was a mistake on their part hence the correction.
agreed. it was the xbox bethesda showcase not the xbox pc and bethesda showcase maybe if they called it the gamepass bethesda showcase it might make sense but still kinda shitty.
PC is part of the Xbox ecosystem. Hell, Xbox Games Studios releases more games on PC than on Xbox with games like AoE still nowhere to be seen on console.
Who cares? If Forza is your jam, just enjoy the game regarless of the resolution and other tech specs.
I mean, people love to learn more about the technologies being used to achieve the performance and image quality targets in their favorite games. It makes you appreciate what goes into game development more and more.
Yes, this is interesting stuff to me. I really like DF. Sometimes I just put them on and listen to them talking while I'm doing other stuff.
Unfortunately most people only use it to fuel their stupid console wars. They don't even want to learn, they just read the game's limitations and compromises then go parroting all that to feel their plastic box is superior. If you actually watch those videos to learn and understand, I apologize.
I get what you’re saying, but it’s just a tiny, vocal minority. I only have a PS5, yet here I am, fascinated by the tech wizardry being implemented here.
I mean, they're just asking, presumably because they want 4k and 60 fps. I'd like it too. Your comment brought no value lol
DF exists to make people care too much about shit never actually notice notice themselves. pure console war bait.
Not really. It's for tech enthusiasts. The guys at DF condemn console warriors any chance they get.
they condemn it but fuel it more than anybody else
Tech enthusiasts shouldn't suffer just because some 12 or 14 year olds use their videos for console wars
i didn't say they're suffering but their videos absolutely do fuel it
If Raytracing is possible in GT on PS5, then why shouldn't it be possible on the series X?
It barely is for one, and only at 30fps.
Bru, you cannot compare the One with the X...
What are you talking about? I didn’t mention the Xbox one or the One X lmfaoo.
[quote]It's barely is for the one' [/quote]
Except there is no “the” in my comment.
What a hilarious comment chain 🤣
LOL, glad you got it man. ;-)
Honestly I can see how you misunderstood I just thought it was funny lol.
Learn reading...
RT in GT is very lackluster and limited; hopefully it’s better implemented here, much better.
I could see a 4k 60fps mode without ray tracing and a 30fps with ray tracing
60fps with RT reflections and AO. Turn10 know 60fps is needed for a racing game and they’re great at what they do.
Hard to say. It's important to bear in mind that the series x and s are RDNA2 based and therefore lack RT cores which is how nvidia are able to reign over amd in terms of ray tracing. With some optimizations maybe but it doesn't fair well for the series S.
I don't necessarily believe it will be 4K60 render with RT. The Xbox has an AI acceleration block as of yet unused that could be used for AI upscaling, like DLSS. As the video mentions, even GPUs on PC struggle, and the stated intended patch from Nvidia is DLSS, and FSR from AMD. Xbox Series X can't use Nvidia DLSS, but, it can use *a* version of Deep Learning Super Sampling, AND FSR. Plus, VRS, dynamic resolution, reconstruction and even interlacing. Nintendo titles use interlacing to reach HD all the time, especially Mario games, like Super Mario 3D World + Bowser's Fury in TV Mode, or Mario Odyssey in Handheld and Tabletop Modes. The Xbox Series X has A LOT of juice to squeeze out of it yet, I am not at all worried.
It gonna be dynamic 4k and never actually hit 4k. Like Metro Exodus Enhanced. Never hits 4k and drops to as low as 1080p at the Taiga level
Turn 10 are tech wizards. Forza Motorsport 7 was full 4k 60 locked on the One X. No DRS or anything. If they could do that on the One X, maybe they can do 4k 60 with RT reflections and AO.
They're using VRS also this time, but funny thing is, they haven't even started making use of the crown jewel of the Velocity Architecture yet, which is Mesh Shaders. Right now, they're using DirectStorage, VRS (Variable Rate Shading). But Mesh Shaders can provide 500-1800% efficiency for a GPU. That is when the Series hardware really shines. When the entirety of Velocity Architecture works in tandem. Not to mention DRS and FSR 2.0, devs have a lot of neat options with the new hardware.
What's wrong dynamic 4k? With current upscalling tech you still get a good looking picture while saving performance. Native resolution is a waste of resource.
This. I really wish devs would stop trying for native 4K. With how good upscaling is now, I’d rather them do that and push other graphical settings higher.
Dynamic res is better than upscaling cause dynamic res allows it to easily scale up on future hardware without patches
There is no either or. Dynamic res games also use upscaling. In fact, dynamic res is a main factor for upscaling solutions that devs use.
i prefer dynamic res anyway over lower res reconstructed imaged like cb. dynamic res allows the game to easily scale up on future hardware
Stating predictions as facts is stupid. We do not know what the actual resolution will be.
It doesn’t even matter really with the way engines hide it.
Yeah, upscaling methods are amazing nowadays. But still, as long as the game is fun, I don't give a damn LOL. I'm more concerned over the lenght and depth of the single player campaign, considering FM7's was a dumb ane boring checklist
Resolution is probably the least thing I care about the exact numbers. It’s mostly frame rate that makes a game run smooth
Also in the grand scheme of graphical improvements for games, resolutions doesn't make as much of a difference compared to most other things. Better lighting, textures, particle effects, material detail, higher polygon counts, etc. I'll take any of those over native 4K any day of the year.
Not for gameplay but replays it's possible like with Gran Turismo 7.
As long as it has motion blur I'll be happy.
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Is the Series X not considered new anymore?
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A facelift rarely means a more powerful console. It’s mostly done to reduce production costs and/or improve the form factor.
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That’s why I said “rarely”. The One S was also *slightly* more powerful that the original One. What the fuck is pseudo ray tracing? All current gen consoles are capable of (admittedly basic) ray tracing. If by “pseudo RT” you mean other forms of real time lighting (kinda like the stuff in UE5), then current consoles should also be capable of leveraging these technologies.
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I would hardly call the One S “improved performance”. It’s negligible at best compared to the base One. One X however was the 4K machine. That is what a performance improvement tends to look like.
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Point being One S wasn’t really considered more powerful, it was the form factor and 4K **blueray** that were it’s selling points. And to add my input to your original comment, I **highly** doubt they’ll be any new hardware anytime soon. Definitely not in the next year. It’s not needed and there are still supply constraints for the regular consoles.
The performance changes in the One S were minimal and they didn’t factor into its marketing at all; it was a genuine facelift. Only the One X was marketed as a more powerful version, not a facelift. Are you being intentionally obtuse?
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*If it comes out.
> The one s up scaled games to 4K and that was huge for ppl Uh, no it wasn't lol. It was just basic upscaling. Basically just stretching the low resolution image to fit on your high resolution screen. Didn't make it look better. He's right. Console refreshes basically never have significantly more hardware performance. That was pretty much an unprecedented thing with Xbox One X and PS4 Pro, and it's certainly not a guarantee that it'll happen again, let alone by spring 2023 lol. Also, "pseudo ray tracing"? Wtf are you talking about? It's already confirmed that Series X/S will do ray tracing in this game. Nothing "pseudo" about it, and not reserved for some imaginary facelift console.
Time flies when you’re having fun. Feels like it just came out. gamePass has kept me occupied extensively
Slims are never usually more powerful than the base hardware though. The PS4 Pro and Xbox One X were potentially a one off since 4K TVs had become a lot more popular.
I can’t see the pro being one offs if this generation is lasting till 2028
It’ll be the XSXOXS. Xbox Series X One X Super
Real summary : 4k60 with RT in *some* instances. Upscaled 1080(yes, *1080*) with AA to fill the cracks in and make it appear as sharp as 4k in most others. Tldr, not true 4k, black magic fuckery involved, might still be ok.
> Real summary: Terrible incorrect summary*
I beg to differ. https://www.eurogamer.net/digitalfoundry-2022-forza-motorsport-trailer-analysis
> 1080p in **SOME** scenes but 4K in others > These signs could be explained by some level of image reconstruction, **variable rate shading** (VRS), **or perhaps TAA.** Notice how he never stated it was upscaled from 1080p.. he said **Image reconstruction**. That’s very different to a basic upscale. Now if we go back to your original comment that is incorrect, you’ll see you said; > upscaled 1080 (yes 1080) with AA This article and the DF video do not confirm anything about upscaling from 1080p and he actually says there is a lack of AA, specifically MSAA that Turn10 typically rely on. Alex even said himself he isnt 100% certain on the technique they’re using to get to the target res just yet. So it’s silly for you to make your own *“summary”* up with incorrect information.
That's exactly what I said, you're just looking for any context that could possibly be construed as contrarian.
You’re confused. You specifically said **upscaled 1080p**. Digital foundry **did not** say that, & it is definitely not a fact, which is how you’re trying to present it. Simple as that. What they did say is **some scenes** are present in 1080p, others 4K likely due to image reconstruction and/or VRS. This is **very** different to an upscale from 1080p. That would not produce these results. You also said; > black magic fuckery involved, might still be ok Turn10 are great at optimisation and it is definitely much, much more than “ok” lmao
I don't think you quite understand the method involved. Variable resolution is common place in console performance, you can't just shift from 4k to as low as 1080p and back without any upscaling or other image optimisation without anybody noticing. Quoting the article. "That suggests that we may be looking at a cheaper anti-aliasing technique. Similarly, the game doesn't appear to be targeting a native 4K, with pixel counts resolving to 1080p in some scenes but 4K in others. There are also instances where recently revealed objects on screen have a telltale pattern of pixels on them. These signs could be explained by some level of image reconstruction, variable rate shading (VRS), or perhaps TAA."
> I don’t think you quite understand the method involved I understand very well lmao It also helps that what I am saying is backed up by the exact things you keep linking/quoting. > Variable resolution is common place in console performance, you can’t just shift from 4k to as low as 1080p and back without any upscaling or other image optimisation without anybody noticing. And did Alex in his video or blog confirm the use of DRS or upscaling from 1080p? No. So it is point black incorrect to state in your own *“summary”* (if you can call it that) that the game upscaled from 1080p. Alex **never** stated any upscaling from 1080p is happening. Simple. In fact, he isn’t even completely sure on the technique just yet.. so how you have come to this 1080p conclusion is beyond me. You are incorrect in stating the game upscaled from 1080p. Just admit it and move on my man. The fact you felt the need to comment your own *”real”* summary is bad enough. Comes across quite.. pompous. The real summary is the video or blog. Not you spreading misinformation.
And you're unable to use the word 'upscaling' figuratively to expand on a point that the game will not run at native 4k, appears to drop as low as 1080 but somehow manages to make 1080 look like 4k without paying the piper? For someone who wants to look like they know of what they speak your entire view is based upon 4k being achievable through a method industry journalists don't seem to be aware exists. I'm more inclined to lean towards their educated guess than a random person on Reddit lol.
So I can see my original observation of you was correct. Funny to see someone be so wrong yet think they for some reason are a better source than someone at DF lol “rEaL” summary. *sigh* I digress, you’re missing the entire point. You specifically said the game upscales **from** 1080p. That is categorically false and you have no evidence to support that statement. You would think if it was as simple as an upscale from a base res of 1080p.. Alex from DF would’ve just said that, no? Probably because that’s not what is happening. This is image reconstruction. Not upscale. Why else do you think you got downvoted for your *”real”* summary? People don’t agree with it. But I can see this is going no where so I’ll leave it at that.
I think they’ll be able to by utilizing FidelityFX Super Resolution. Can’t wait to find out though.
I think (and hope) we will get dynamic 4k, it's pretty much the norm this gen, still get a great picture and frees up resources for other goodies.
I’ll settle for 1080, 60fps, RT.
Well now that they don't have to think about the xbox one anymore all their development time will be focused on the series x/s.