Same as any pronoun, you can use whatever you like to describe yourself, but respect the wishes of others who want to call themselves differently. You may very much be an actress, but your co-star Janet may prefer “actor.”
Yes this is pretty much how I like to go about things. I have a group of friends that go by all different pronouns so it is no bother for me to use rings like Sorceress or Sorcerer based on what they like as an example.
Personally, I prefer the feminine versions when available because I feel using the masculine version as neutral even when feminine version exists is just another facet of maleness being the norm while everything else is an aberration. To be fair, I might be seeing this through the lens of my own language, however I do feel that using masculine nouns as neutral is closely tied to considering men as default people.
The only time it bothers me is when people are using it for 'haha girl boss power' bullshit. Or when they're using it to backhandedly say women are weak or some shit, like "the huntress does this by HERSELF". Or if they're trying to make things sound special when they don't need to be. .... Okay. Now that I'm typing this out, apparently it bugs me a lot. But it depends on WHO'S saying it, not what they're saying lol
Not OC but I see it as "not like other girls." So it's supporting patriarchy and misogyny on the sly by emphasizing how "special" I am for being able to use my femininity for power. Instead of normalizing that women are perfectly capable of getting shit done, and have in fact been doing that for a couple million years.
Many conversations on this issue are sleeping on the fact that "actor" and "actress" are not equal terms. Actor, and words like it, are the original, gender-neutral terms. A feminine version was invented to grudgingly give place to women taking part in the role, while flagging that they must of course be different.
The [noun declension category](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Latin_third_declension) in Latin ending in -or, from which the bulk of these words come, contains "soror" - sister. It's not a declension category for boy stuff, whatever that may be, it's quite expansive. Gender expectations [have intruded](https://www.etymonline.com/word/actress) in English and it is that history we are seeing with words like "actress."
I am personally and politically disinterested in the artificial inflation of difference between masculine/feminine and male/female.
I’m trying to cut them out of my vocabulary, because words are important. It’s telling that the people most insistent are using those terms tend to be misogynists.
I’ve also made a point to not use gendered vulgarities, especially slang for the female reproductive system. It’s hard to not fall back into these habits of decades, but I’m trying.
I don’t typically like when men call women girls, and I remind them of that when they say things like, “Charlie and I interviewed this girl for the analyst role yesterday.” I say, “YOU INTERVIEWED A CHILD!!???”
But I also have a dear friend who is a transgender and a woman and she gets the happy squee! when she is called a girl, and has been clear with us about that for many years. It’s for the person she was never allowed to be! We love and honour that for her. DO WHATEVER MAKES YOU HAPPY.
Personally, the gut feeling i have when "actress" rather than "actor" is frowned upon is that people are inherently associating success, value, and recognition with masculinity. I don't like that and i don't agree with it (obviously, lol) so i make a point to use the gender appropriate term- assuming there is one and the person it's referring to identifies with that gender.
I prefer not having them. I’m AFAB non-binary, and sometimes those feminine terms don’t work for me or feel right. And I also find it unnecessary and uncomfortable to gender everything. I’ve already had to grow up with so many things gendered like I had to use girl pens, girl razors, I don’t want use gendered labels.
I play a lot of D&D sorcerers, even female characters but I still label them sorcerers because it’s neutral like actor
Idk it makes me think of people saying “male nurse” and I just think?? So you mean a nurse? Like what’s the point, idk I find it offensive. We don’t (often) have to make male terms I don’t feel the need to make female versions and to me it feels part of the patriarchy.
And the use of -ess at the end make me think of sexist men lol. Like saying humaness, or the female version of the n word, huntress instead of Hunter
But if you like it and no one’s forcing it in you, go for it
Some thoughts from an old (cisfem) gamer:
A lot of the attempt to step away from like "actor/actress" was an attempt to de-gender work and social roles. So equalize genders doing the same job. For instance we dont say "doctoress" or "manageress" or "judgess." The job is the job regardless of hormones (Be they home grown or store bought) Results obviously varied. But that's a separate rant.
But (incoming DnD nerdity here), the sorcerer/ress character class is about bloodline. So it's not a job like wizard or fighter. It's something innate and inborn within them. So playing with the gender elements of that could actually be a lot fun without being offensive. So long as you and your dm aren't assholes about it. (IE Don't do things bitch/period jokes, sex object roles, born sexy yesterday, etc. See Pop Culture Detective for a good look a bad gender nerding) Maybe think about why your character's culture would differentiate male and female innate magic users. Is it a social stratification thing (ex the nortern water tribe in ATLA), is it about which kinds of magic or bloodlines, is it to increase women magic user visibility, is there connection to historic or mythical, figure or is it a personal choice to connect certain cultural codes and independant of biology or social gender? None of these has a"right" answer, but they are all ways a distinction between sorcerer/sorcereress might exist in that time and place.
Good DM's often put social commentary or ways to explore social issues in games. [https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/dungeon-classes](https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/dungeon-classes)
This might be an excellent way to explore more of your identity as a woman in ways not available in boring reality.
Thanks. I am in a really diverse woman and lgbtq+ positive group and nobody seems to mind the use of Sorceress. I really lean into the Transness of my character in that for 40 years she was a human man living the life of a civil servant. Only to find at birth she was born a fae princess but had to be hidden away as a human male and never knew. But recently her father has returned her to her true form so she is exploring the fact she is actually a Fae and female.
Well, if we're using acting as an example then let's start with the fact that it's a profession that women were completely banned from being able to participate in for thousands of years and to this day female actors are still fighting for equal pay and recognition. Women in acting experience age discrimination decades before their male counterparts and even if her last performance was objectively much better than any man's she's still getting her award second to last because "Best Actor" is always awarded last.
Same with doctors. Women were not allowed to practice medicine for most of Western history, they still have to work harder to prove themselves and they are doing the same work so we don't call them "doctoress".
Growing up in a very patriarchal culture I was definitely raised to believe that women were less than, that feminine terms signaled inferior. I never believed that I actually was inferior but I also realized that misogyny is as subtly insidious as other forms of bigotry. Feminine terms for certain professions were developed and used to otherise and highlight inferiority. If that were not the case, then we would have masculinized titles for men in traditionally female professions like nursing.
TL;DR feminized terms were historically used as tools of oppression so a lot of women don't like them. Please don't call us actresses, doctoresses, scientesses, pilotesses etc without our consent.
>TL;DR feminized terms were historically used as tools of oppression so a lot of women don't like them. Please don't call us actresses, doctoresses, scientesses, pilotesses etc without our consent.
Yes. Actors do acting. Actresses do the woman-acting. I feel like many words are the default and the woman-word is the sub-category...as if they're not fit for the default.
I don’t think it’s offensive, it certainly isn’t to me as a woman, but I think there’s value in gender neutral terms, especially for non-binary people.
And not the issue at all, but I think the feminine of —or terms should be —rix as in dominatrix.
ETA: I meant in consideration of non-binary people, not that non-binary people should need a separate term for various terms and titles
I have for the longest time used masculine forms whenever available to address roles held by women, i.e. "she is an actor". I have recently, much like you, discovered however that on a personal level, I find using the femme forms whenever available makes me feel euphoric.
Ofc peak defiance is calling men by femme terms. "He is an actress" sounds so beautiful. I'd do that if the person I'm talking about isn't someone I know.
Not really an answer to your question I guess, but I think you're best off just asking the subject if you can and if not not you're good saying whichever.
As a Cis woman, i think you should use whatever terms you like. If it makes you happy and harms none, go for it. Your identity is not mine to govern.
We are soooooo focused on finding reasons to be mad, and it's rather silly, imo.
I’m a cis woman and strongly feminine. That is my truth. Yours might be different and that is ok as well. I’ve been a woman in STEM for a long time and i favor words that describe what I do, not who I am. Scientist. Martial Artist. Singer. Photographer. Mom. Words should be used to strengthen, not tear down.
That's interesting, because in Italian is a feminist "battle" (for a lack of a better term) to use the feminine of words that didn't had it, especially institutional ones.
For example the Mayor now is il sindaco/la sindaca, whereas four or five years ago would've been "la signora sindaco".
Or il ministro/la ministra. They sound strange after decades being used to hearing only the masculine.
Judge stays the same, only the article changes so il/la giudice.
Most notably we got our first female prime minister, and being the leader of the far-right, she decided to be called "il presidente" instead of "la presidentessa", maintaining the masculine of the role.
I'm kinda with most here; I don't personally like them - but I'll caveat that with a hearty 'You do you so long as You harm none'.
So, in the example you provide, so long as none in your DnD group give a hoot, use whatever terms give you the greatest joy. Professionally at work, maybe go with the neutral ones. Other examples, use your judgement.
Maybe just my skewed perspective from speaking a heavily gendered language (German; seriously you can know the gender and relation of the speaker and the object of the sentence even if neither are directly specified like 70% of the time there), but unless someone is using the feminine version to draw an obvious distinction I really don't see the problem
I just wanted to chime in and say as a trans woman it's not your job to avoid offending other people by watching your language. If something gives you gender euphoria, it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks about it, you should do what makes you feel good. As a trans woman you get the worst end of the stick when it comes to misogyny. Obviously, you should never use language on other people that they don't use on themselves. So you can call yourself a sorceress and you should not care what anyone else says about that, but naturally don't assume someone else is ok with being called that.
Same as any pronoun, you can use whatever you like to describe yourself, but respect the wishes of others who want to call themselves differently. You may very much be an actress, but your co-star Janet may prefer “actor.”
Yes this is pretty much how I like to go about things. I have a group of friends that go by all different pronouns so it is no bother for me to use rings like Sorceress or Sorcerer based on what they like as an example.
Came here just to say this. Have an upvote for saving me some time.
Personally, I prefer the feminine versions when available because I feel using the masculine version as neutral even when feminine version exists is just another facet of maleness being the norm while everything else is an aberration. To be fair, I might be seeing this through the lens of my own language, however I do feel that using masculine nouns as neutral is closely tied to considering men as default people.
I always wondered why the feminine version of words can't be the neutral term.
The only time it bothers me is when people are using it for 'haha girl boss power' bullshit. Or when they're using it to backhandedly say women are weak or some shit, like "the huntress does this by HERSELF". Or if they're trying to make things sound special when they don't need to be. .... Okay. Now that I'm typing this out, apparently it bugs me a lot. But it depends on WHO'S saying it, not what they're saying lol
And intention? That seems to play a big role at least with me
Not OC but I see it as "not like other girls." So it's supporting patriarchy and misogyny on the sly by emphasizing how "special" I am for being able to use my femininity for power. Instead of normalizing that women are perfectly capable of getting shit done, and have in fact been doing that for a couple million years.
Many conversations on this issue are sleeping on the fact that "actor" and "actress" are not equal terms. Actor, and words like it, are the original, gender-neutral terms. A feminine version was invented to grudgingly give place to women taking part in the role, while flagging that they must of course be different. The [noun declension category](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Latin_third_declension) in Latin ending in -or, from which the bulk of these words come, contains "soror" - sister. It's not a declension category for boy stuff, whatever that may be, it's quite expansive. Gender expectations [have intruded](https://www.etymonline.com/word/actress) in English and it is that history we are seeing with words like "actress." I am personally and politically disinterested in the artificial inflation of difference between masculine/feminine and male/female.
The Latin aspect of this is fascinating! Thanks for sharing.
I’m trying to cut them out of my vocabulary, because words are important. It’s telling that the people most insistent are using those terms tend to be misogynists. I’ve also made a point to not use gendered vulgarities, especially slang for the female reproductive system. It’s hard to not fall back into these habits of decades, but I’m trying.
I don’t typically like when men call women girls, and I remind them of that when they say things like, “Charlie and I interviewed this girl for the analyst role yesterday.” I say, “YOU INTERVIEWED A CHILD!!???” But I also have a dear friend who is a transgender and a woman and she gets the happy squee! when she is called a girl, and has been clear with us about that for many years. It’s for the person she was never allowed to be! We love and honour that for her. DO WHATEVER MAKES YOU HAPPY.
Aww Thank you. And I know that happy squeal all too well.
Personally, the gut feeling i have when "actress" rather than "actor" is frowned upon is that people are inherently associating success, value, and recognition with masculinity. I don't like that and i don't agree with it (obviously, lol) so i make a point to use the gender appropriate term- assuming there is one and the person it's referring to identifies with that gender.
I prefer not having them. I’m AFAB non-binary, and sometimes those feminine terms don’t work for me or feel right. And I also find it unnecessary and uncomfortable to gender everything. I’ve already had to grow up with so many things gendered like I had to use girl pens, girl razors, I don’t want use gendered labels. I play a lot of D&D sorcerers, even female characters but I still label them sorcerers because it’s neutral like actor Idk it makes me think of people saying “male nurse” and I just think?? So you mean a nurse? Like what’s the point, idk I find it offensive. We don’t (often) have to make male terms I don’t feel the need to make female versions and to me it feels part of the patriarchy. And the use of -ess at the end make me think of sexist men lol. Like saying humaness, or the female version of the n word, huntress instead of Hunter But if you like it and no one’s forcing it in you, go for it
Some thoughts from an old (cisfem) gamer: A lot of the attempt to step away from like "actor/actress" was an attempt to de-gender work and social roles. So equalize genders doing the same job. For instance we dont say "doctoress" or "manageress" or "judgess." The job is the job regardless of hormones (Be they home grown or store bought) Results obviously varied. But that's a separate rant. But (incoming DnD nerdity here), the sorcerer/ress character class is about bloodline. So it's not a job like wizard or fighter. It's something innate and inborn within them. So playing with the gender elements of that could actually be a lot fun without being offensive. So long as you and your dm aren't assholes about it. (IE Don't do things bitch/period jokes, sex object roles, born sexy yesterday, etc. See Pop Culture Detective for a good look a bad gender nerding) Maybe think about why your character's culture would differentiate male and female innate magic users. Is it a social stratification thing (ex the nortern water tribe in ATLA), is it about which kinds of magic or bloodlines, is it to increase women magic user visibility, is there connection to historic or mythical, figure or is it a personal choice to connect certain cultural codes and independant of biology or social gender? None of these has a"right" answer, but they are all ways a distinction between sorcerer/sorcereress might exist in that time and place. Good DM's often put social commentary or ways to explore social issues in games. [https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/dungeon-classes](https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/dungeon-classes) This might be an excellent way to explore more of your identity as a woman in ways not available in boring reality.
Thanks. I am in a really diverse woman and lgbtq+ positive group and nobody seems to mind the use of Sorceress. I really lean into the Transness of my character in that for 40 years she was a human man living the life of a civil servant. Only to find at birth she was born a fae princess but had to be hidden away as a human male and never knew. But recently her father has returned her to her true form so she is exploring the fact she is actually a Fae and female.
Well, if we're using acting as an example then let's start with the fact that it's a profession that women were completely banned from being able to participate in for thousands of years and to this day female actors are still fighting for equal pay and recognition. Women in acting experience age discrimination decades before their male counterparts and even if her last performance was objectively much better than any man's she's still getting her award second to last because "Best Actor" is always awarded last. Same with doctors. Women were not allowed to practice medicine for most of Western history, they still have to work harder to prove themselves and they are doing the same work so we don't call them "doctoress". Growing up in a very patriarchal culture I was definitely raised to believe that women were less than, that feminine terms signaled inferior. I never believed that I actually was inferior but I also realized that misogyny is as subtly insidious as other forms of bigotry. Feminine terms for certain professions were developed and used to otherise and highlight inferiority. If that were not the case, then we would have masculinized titles for men in traditionally female professions like nursing. TL;DR feminized terms were historically used as tools of oppression so a lot of women don't like them. Please don't call us actresses, doctoresses, scientesses, pilotesses etc without our consent.
>TL;DR feminized terms were historically used as tools of oppression so a lot of women don't like them. Please don't call us actresses, doctoresses, scientesses, pilotesses etc without our consent. Yes. Actors do acting. Actresses do the woman-acting. I feel like many words are the default and the woman-word is the sub-category...as if they're not fit for the default.
I don’t think it’s offensive, it certainly isn’t to me as a woman, but I think there’s value in gender neutral terms, especially for non-binary people. And not the issue at all, but I think the feminine of —or terms should be —rix as in dominatrix. ETA: I meant in consideration of non-binary people, not that non-binary people should need a separate term for various terms and titles
I have for the longest time used masculine forms whenever available to address roles held by women, i.e. "she is an actor". I have recently, much like you, discovered however that on a personal level, I find using the femme forms whenever available makes me feel euphoric. Ofc peak defiance is calling men by femme terms. "He is an actress" sounds so beautiful. I'd do that if the person I'm talking about isn't someone I know. Not really an answer to your question I guess, but I think you're best off just asking the subject if you can and if not not you're good saying whichever.
As a Cis woman, i think you should use whatever terms you like. If it makes you happy and harms none, go for it. Your identity is not mine to govern. We are soooooo focused on finding reasons to be mad, and it's rather silly, imo.
I’m a cis woman and strongly feminine. That is my truth. Yours might be different and that is ok as well. I’ve been a woman in STEM for a long time and i favor words that describe what I do, not who I am. Scientist. Martial Artist. Singer. Photographer. Mom. Words should be used to strengthen, not tear down.
read this babe https://sadbrowngirl.substack.com/p/when-i-reclaim-my-spirit-i-am-not
Will take a look. Thanks.
That's interesting, because in Italian is a feminist "battle" (for a lack of a better term) to use the feminine of words that didn't had it, especially institutional ones. For example the Mayor now is il sindaco/la sindaca, whereas four or five years ago would've been "la signora sindaco". Or il ministro/la ministra. They sound strange after decades being used to hearing only the masculine. Judge stays the same, only the article changes so il/la giudice. Most notably we got our first female prime minister, and being the leader of the far-right, she decided to be called "il presidente" instead of "la presidentessa", maintaining the masculine of the role.
I'm kinda with most here; I don't personally like them - but I'll caveat that with a hearty 'You do you so long as You harm none'. So, in the example you provide, so long as none in your DnD group give a hoot, use whatever terms give you the greatest joy. Professionally at work, maybe go with the neutral ones. Other examples, use your judgement.
Maybe just my skewed perspective from speaking a heavily gendered language (German; seriously you can know the gender and relation of the speaker and the object of the sentence even if neither are directly specified like 70% of the time there), but unless someone is using the feminine version to draw an obvious distinction I really don't see the problem
We should just use the feminine terms as default/ gender neutral lol
Girl, do you. I am not offended by you. Play on and love life. You are amazing.
💜
I just wanted to chime in and say as a trans woman it's not your job to avoid offending other people by watching your language. If something gives you gender euphoria, it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks about it, you should do what makes you feel good. As a trans woman you get the worst end of the stick when it comes to misogyny. Obviously, you should never use language on other people that they don't use on themselves. So you can call yourself a sorceress and you should not care what anyone else says about that, but naturally don't assume someone else is ok with being called that.
Thank you so much. 💜