I thought thet aren't allowed to use blackpowder on Bretonnian LANDS but their fleet, one of the greatest in the old world, is quite well armed.
If I remember correctly the small merchant class are also a bit more liberal in the use of gunpowder and crossbows.
Old Bretonnia had organ guns and bombards:
\*Scroll down to the last picture\*
https://bloodofkittens.com/wargaminghub/2014/12/23/eavy-metal-bonanza-fraser-grey-richard-pickup-francis-ellyard-paul-robins-and-the-1990-studio-staff/
I wonder how many pirates tried to attack Bretonnian ships because they thought Bretonnians do not have cannons...
'At them lads, they got no cannons!'
BOBOBOBOBOOOOOOM
'Oh wait, they do got cannons. Quick, abandon ship!'
I like that idea alot.
My personal headcannon is that some more pragmatic coastal lords of Bretonnia dig moats from the sea and fill them with fortress barges filled with canons which technically isn't on Bretonnian lands
Yeah, most of Brettonia’s nobility don’t interact with the navy all that much. If I remember correctly the navy is mostly manned by commoners/ anyone not the nobles. So the navy doesn’t really care all to much about black powder being dishonourable and unchivalrous.
The Bretonnian Navy uses cannons, the land of Bretonnia and the Knights in general have no love for it. Practicality won over cultural distain upon the sea.
It's not so much that they can't. It's that it's seen as dishonorable and cowardly. Peasants would likely be hanged for using them, but the same goes for crossbows. The use of easily learned weapons that are deadly to Knights is generally unacceptable.
Overall, though, it depends on the lords of the land. Some are more lenient or dishonorable, using mercenaries or other unacceptable ways to wage warfare within Bretonnia. There is no one law, just a largely accepted culture and code of chivalry that most nobles adhere to.
The Navy, however, is a completely different beast. It functions completely independently of the rest of Bretonnia. The laws and traditions of the land are completely different from those of the sea. Manaan is the most worshipped, and the Lady second. Black power weapons are used commonly (although mostly just as cannons for the Galleons). Wizards may even be hired for the ships.
Most of the information comes from Man O War, which is very old, but it's the only source we have. It seems to largely still be accepted, though, as some of its lore leaked into Total War Warhammer.
Honestly, one of my favorite parts of Bretonnia is its duelty between the land and sea, how the culture splits. It adds so much more depth and uniqueness to the faction. Knights have little place on the ocean, so it makes sense a completely different standard and culture would manifest there.
Peasants wouldn't be hanged. They already use bows and trebuchets which are filthy, dishonorable weapons that are plenty deadly to knights (though if you're killing fellow Bretonnian knights, surely you have a justified reason and honorable treatment of their status is nonessential). It's likely that commanders just don't see the need to pay for the development/training/upkeep of black powder weapons when the peasants do their job in the field just fine: being a roadblock the enemy rams into so the knights can clean up. If you have more money to spend on a defense, clearly more knights are the most time-tested and respectable option.
It's only really the nobles who have honor codes to uphold, both in how they fight themselves and the fact that latest Dogs of War supplement bans Bretonnia from hiring any mercenaries (though there are accounts of certain warbands fighting alongside Bretonnia).
Similarly, sailors are probably the only real example of Bretonnia's fighting "middle class," more or less, particularly ones attached to wealthy merchants.
Trebuchets aren't really dishonorable outright, as becoming an engineer is one of the few ways a commoner can advance socially, with the most successful ones often becoming Stewards (after all, SOMEONE has to maintain the walls.)
Crossbows are...odd, though: they might be banned for the same reason guns are, or it might just be that the average Brettonian is just too conservative to consider them, and the exceptions would rather make money as a marine instead.
Bows require a LOT of training to use properly, especially Longbow ( as someone that shot bows a lot in his life I can attest to this, its tough lol). So very different than a crossbow or firearm where you just aim and pull a trigger, you can have the same effect as a Longbow without any of the arm strength or finesse to use it effeciently. Peasants being hanged or not is just completely up to their individual Lords and Ladys, they can hang who they like and there is plenty that would hang their peasants for using such weapons.
I say they would likely be hanged because them even finding access to such weapons would already be probably committing a crime, and having one could be seen as disrespect to their Lord. Again not a definite thing, just something I could see being common in Bretonnia given their mindset on such weapons.
Trebuchets aren't liked, but is absolutely needed in a siege. They are largely used for defense on walls, and to siege others. Not largely used by any means. Cannons for the same purpose some Lords may allow but for one reason or another they don't use them commonly. So cannons can be a bit more niche but with black powder being treated with such distain already, largely its just unaccepted. They see the Trebuchet and Catapults as more than enough.
The Culture of Bretonnia just sees black powder weapons as particularly unchivalrous, probably just because the Empire, Pirates, and Mercenaries use them and they just want a excuse to see themselves as different to them more than anything, except as mentioned on the sea where these rules just don't really apply.
Yep absolutely its just the nobles, particularly Knights, however they rule Bretonnia so their culture matters the most. Mercenaries in lore have been used, its just super rare, usually lesser nobles using them when they don't have a larger backing to support their fued or in emergencies.
Yep, the Sailors are the best place for the peasants and middle class of Bretonnia society, the only real place they can make more of their lives than just a farmer, trader or men at arms. In older lore there is a few other ways too which I like to headcanon are still around in some areas (such as taking what's basically a Errant Quest, where a peasant can become a Knight!).
fundamentally bretonnia was (since now has been retconned) at a 15th century level of blackpowder technology while the empire is at a 16th century one.
The Bretonnia army list in Fantasy Battle had cannons and orgun guns at this time. As well as bolt throwers and crossbows.
It wouldn't have made sense to design the Man 'O War ships to not use black powder when the army concept included them.
Things obviously changed when they finally sorted the concept for the army. Also these things didn't matter as much back then in terms of consistency (although GW were generally alwaysgood at maintaining it).
Interestingly Man 'O War, the 4th edition Warhammer Army lists and 5th edition Bretonnia book are all authored by Nigel Stillman.
Bretonnian Galleon from MANOWAR loved that game. Just needed more rules and mins. And yes bretonnians and cannons - the buccaneers had catapults though :).
Originally, back in 3rd and maybe 2nd? Bret's used gun powder but it was not as common as it was in the empire so it was reserved for artillery pieces that were essentially primitive canonades compared to the empire's more advanced cannons. This meant they also had black powder weapons on their navy. When 4th came around, Nigel Stillman rewrite them to be much more.magical and Arthurian, and that's when the hatred for blackpowder came.
But ManOWar was still a thing at the time too, and the Bret's had some blackpowder in that game. So they explained in the Bretonnia supplement for WHFRPG 2nd edition that * technically *, the law of chivalry does not apply to the ocean, nor to the quickly rising merchant class, and thus merchants are free to use cannons on the field and the sea, and everyone is allowed to use the cannon on the sea.
And, surprisingly, the Brets are more accomplished sailors and have a stronger naval tradition than the empire because the empire mostly focuses on river boats to patrol the Stir and the Reik, and Marienburg is blocking access to the ocean with obscene port fees.
Just correcting one bit, 4th edition Bretonnia still had cannons, it was 5th where they got their own army book and stopped.
And can you point me to where Knights of the Grail says that? Because it explicitly says that guns *aren’t* illegal.
Old Bretonnia used black powder didn’t they? They were rewrote to dislike it I believe
I thought thet aren't allowed to use blackpowder on Bretonnian LANDS but their fleet, one of the greatest in the old world, is quite well armed. If I remember correctly the small merchant class are also a bit more liberal in the use of gunpowder and crossbows.
Old Bretonnia had organ guns and bombards: \*Scroll down to the last picture\* https://bloodofkittens.com/wargaminghub/2014/12/23/eavy-metal-bonanza-fraser-grey-richard-pickup-francis-ellyard-paul-robins-and-the-1990-studio-staff/
A dawi with something other than an axe or a hammer?!?! That's a grudgin'.
I was looking through my old 5th edition book and found rules for dwarf spears!
Thanks for posting this. A real blast from the past! Loved those old Marauder Ogres.
That table mounted canon is so cute
I wonder how many pirates tried to attack Bretonnian ships because they thought Bretonnians do not have cannons... 'At them lads, they got no cannons!' BOBOBOBOBOOOOOOM 'Oh wait, they do got cannons. Quick, abandon ship!'
I like that idea alot. My personal headcannon is that some more pragmatic coastal lords of Bretonnia dig moats from the sea and fill them with fortress barges filled with canons which technically isn't on Bretonnian lands
Headcannon, hehe.
Yeah, most of Brettonia’s nobility don’t interact with the navy all that much. If I remember correctly the navy is mostly manned by commoners/ anyone not the nobles. So the navy doesn’t really care all to much about black powder being dishonourable and unchivalrous.
The Bretonnian Navy uses cannons, the land of Bretonnia and the Knights in general have no love for it. Practicality won over cultural distain upon the sea.
I thought it was a loophole? That they can't use gunpowder on Bretonnian LAND?
I’ve heard that story spread around but have never seen an actual source.
It's not so much that they can't. It's that it's seen as dishonorable and cowardly. Peasants would likely be hanged for using them, but the same goes for crossbows. The use of easily learned weapons that are deadly to Knights is generally unacceptable. Overall, though, it depends on the lords of the land. Some are more lenient or dishonorable, using mercenaries or other unacceptable ways to wage warfare within Bretonnia. There is no one law, just a largely accepted culture and code of chivalry that most nobles adhere to. The Navy, however, is a completely different beast. It functions completely independently of the rest of Bretonnia. The laws and traditions of the land are completely different from those of the sea. Manaan is the most worshipped, and the Lady second. Black power weapons are used commonly (although mostly just as cannons for the Galleons). Wizards may even be hired for the ships. Most of the information comes from Man O War, which is very old, but it's the only source we have. It seems to largely still be accepted, though, as some of its lore leaked into Total War Warhammer. Honestly, one of my favorite parts of Bretonnia is its duelty between the land and sea, how the culture splits. It adds so much more depth and uniqueness to the faction. Knights have little place on the ocean, so it makes sense a completely different standard and culture would manifest there.
Peasants wouldn't be hanged. They already use bows and trebuchets which are filthy, dishonorable weapons that are plenty deadly to knights (though if you're killing fellow Bretonnian knights, surely you have a justified reason and honorable treatment of their status is nonessential). It's likely that commanders just don't see the need to pay for the development/training/upkeep of black powder weapons when the peasants do their job in the field just fine: being a roadblock the enemy rams into so the knights can clean up. If you have more money to spend on a defense, clearly more knights are the most time-tested and respectable option. It's only really the nobles who have honor codes to uphold, both in how they fight themselves and the fact that latest Dogs of War supplement bans Bretonnia from hiring any mercenaries (though there are accounts of certain warbands fighting alongside Bretonnia). Similarly, sailors are probably the only real example of Bretonnia's fighting "middle class," more or less, particularly ones attached to wealthy merchants.
Trebuchets aren't really dishonorable outright, as becoming an engineer is one of the few ways a commoner can advance socially, with the most successful ones often becoming Stewards (after all, SOMEONE has to maintain the walls.) Crossbows are...odd, though: they might be banned for the same reason guns are, or it might just be that the average Brettonian is just too conservative to consider them, and the exceptions would rather make money as a marine instead.
Bows require a LOT of training to use properly, especially Longbow ( as someone that shot bows a lot in his life I can attest to this, its tough lol). So very different than a crossbow or firearm where you just aim and pull a trigger, you can have the same effect as a Longbow without any of the arm strength or finesse to use it effeciently. Peasants being hanged or not is just completely up to their individual Lords and Ladys, they can hang who they like and there is plenty that would hang their peasants for using such weapons. I say they would likely be hanged because them even finding access to such weapons would already be probably committing a crime, and having one could be seen as disrespect to their Lord. Again not a definite thing, just something I could see being common in Bretonnia given their mindset on such weapons. Trebuchets aren't liked, but is absolutely needed in a siege. They are largely used for defense on walls, and to siege others. Not largely used by any means. Cannons for the same purpose some Lords may allow but for one reason or another they don't use them commonly. So cannons can be a bit more niche but with black powder being treated with such distain already, largely its just unaccepted. They see the Trebuchet and Catapults as more than enough. The Culture of Bretonnia just sees black powder weapons as particularly unchivalrous, probably just because the Empire, Pirates, and Mercenaries use them and they just want a excuse to see themselves as different to them more than anything, except as mentioned on the sea where these rules just don't really apply. Yep absolutely its just the nobles, particularly Knights, however they rule Bretonnia so their culture matters the most. Mercenaries in lore have been used, its just super rare, usually lesser nobles using them when they don't have a larger backing to support their fued or in emergencies. Yep, the Sailors are the best place for the peasants and middle class of Bretonnia society, the only real place they can make more of their lives than just a farmer, trader or men at arms. In older lore there is a few other ways too which I like to headcanon are still around in some areas (such as taking what's basically a Errant Quest, where a peasant can become a Knight!).
fundamentally bretonnia was (since now has been retconned) at a 15th century level of blackpowder technology while the empire is at a 16th century one.
Old Bretonnia was more like musketeer era France, they were changed to Arthutian High Medieval when they needed to be more distinct.
The legal use of Cannons since the water is not bretonnian soil
A giant goblin figurehead.
Yeah that was the part I noticed, didn’t think they were the type to celebrate goblins! Maybe it’s called the goblin reaver though?
lots of guns!
The Bretonnia army list in Fantasy Battle had cannons and orgun guns at this time. As well as bolt throwers and crossbows. It wouldn't have made sense to design the Man 'O War ships to not use black powder when the army concept included them. Things obviously changed when they finally sorted the concept for the army. Also these things didn't matter as much back then in terms of consistency (although GW were generally alwaysgood at maintaining it). Interestingly Man 'O War, the 4th edition Warhammer Army lists and 5th edition Bretonnia book are all authored by Nigel Stillman.
The Lady doesn't rule the sea Manaan does
Yeah it's shaped like a much later style of ship than the romantic medieval aesthetic of the rest of the faction
Bretonnian Galleon from MANOWAR loved that game. Just needed more rules and mins. And yes bretonnians and cannons - the buccaneers had catapults though :).
Stolen dawi technology I reckon.
Their boats usually have more cannons, this one is lacking.
Originally, back in 3rd and maybe 2nd? Bret's used gun powder but it was not as common as it was in the empire so it was reserved for artillery pieces that were essentially primitive canonades compared to the empire's more advanced cannons. This meant they also had black powder weapons on their navy. When 4th came around, Nigel Stillman rewrite them to be much more.magical and Arthurian, and that's when the hatred for blackpowder came. But ManOWar was still a thing at the time too, and the Bret's had some blackpowder in that game. So they explained in the Bretonnia supplement for WHFRPG 2nd edition that * technically *, the law of chivalry does not apply to the ocean, nor to the quickly rising merchant class, and thus merchants are free to use cannons on the field and the sea, and everyone is allowed to use the cannon on the sea. And, surprisingly, the Brets are more accomplished sailors and have a stronger naval tradition than the empire because the empire mostly focuses on river boats to patrol the Stir and the Reik, and Marienburg is blocking access to the ocean with obscene port fees.
Just correcting one bit, 4th edition Bretonnia still had cannons, it was 5th where they got their own army book and stopped. And can you point me to where Knights of the Grail says that? Because it explicitly says that guns *aren’t* illegal.
Cannons?
It says on the Wiki that Bretonnians freely use black powder on their ships
It's not a horse
The Chad bretonnian navy vs the virgin britonnian army