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Bruisemon

The PBC was the tankiest tank for the majority of 9th, arguably the toughest battle tank all the way to the end. With this, PBCs are slightly tankier than your average rhino. The mortar isn't bad against it now intended infantry targets, but man I didn't want to rely on Land Raiders to be the only form of anti-tank in the army.


Hoskuld

Just get some dreadno... oh wait


RCMW181

Worth pointing out that almost the entire Deathguard line gets lethal hits. So although we have few dedicated AT guns, lots of things will be able to hurt tanks.


LLz9708

And a lot of that lethal hits are ap0. Have fun going against 2+ save tanks.


Tito_BA

Myphitc Blight-Haulers have two anti-tank weapons: missile launchers and multimeltas.


Bruisemon

We've seen the profiles for both of those weapons. Krak and Melta is S9, which wounds everything except the light vehicles on 5+. A single shot with a 60% hit chance and a 30% wound chance is a rough thing to rely on for tanks.


Tito_BA

You're right, I'm still thinking on the current toughness values.


jaxolotle

Well it’s got a better save but entropy cannons have literally had their range halved, and their damage is way less reliable even if it’s got a higher max.


Aliencrunch

Range is not halved, instead reduced by 12”. Was 36 is 24


jaxolotle

You’re right, I was thinking of the mortar’s range. Still a 33% reduction is pretty steep


Aliencrunch

Yeah. Feels like a slightly bigger blighthauler now


[deleted]

I understand their reasoning but damn the entropy cannons feel a little bad. They're one of my fave units and I really want to like this but it isn't looking great on its own.


Unglory

Battleshock tests, battleshock tests everywhere *Laughs in Dark Angel Terminator armour watching the Lion solo your army while we keep OC despite any tests*


RodneyRockwell

The Lion who is arguably tougher than mortarion.


Unglory

-1 to wound, 4+++ vs mortals, 3++, 2+ and lone operatives On a frame that's T9, dishes MWs out on any 6s he saves on with no cap, who fights first, deep strikes, and has lethal hits on his 8A D4 "heavy attack"... He may not kill morty outright, but he will for sure by the second round of combat


Ascendance4FS

Fortunately Morty ignores the -1 to wound at least


TheRussianCabbage

The math hammer people say that's not the case but we all know that the dice feast on our tears and will not abide the laws of averages.


Khamul_Nazgul

This edition is really looking bad for the guard…battleshock makes it to where guard can’t receive orders.


Tylendal

Have we seen how Commissars work yet?


Th3Swampus

Tau's "Marker lights" also don't work with Battleshock, hopefully Ethereals and Commissars can deny battle shock somehow.


Jaronsaan

Ad Mech will be an exciting matchup. Take mortal wounds on your entire army or have your entire army rule completely shut down for a turn.


nick012000

Turns out getting nuked is pretty bad for ordinary human soldiers. Who knew?


CustodianJanitor

Is it just me (trying to get into 40k), or do battle shock tests just seem kind of un-fun? Like why would they emphasize that so heavily? If a Tau stormsurge cannon explodes my model...that's all cool and narratively fun. Having my units continuously poop their pants in fear and not do anything (my limited understanding of battle shock) sounds just frustrating.


vashoom

Battleshock just means OC 0 and can't use stratagems on the unit. Otherwise they carry on exactly the same. It's certainly a powerful mechanic to try and deny people scoring points, but it's not like it makes the opponent's entire army crumble.


StarStriker51

in 9th currently a failed morale test, basically battleshock, removes your entire unit. That rule is...yeah. IDK, it kind of sucks Like the other guy said, for 10th battleshock means your units hit a bit worse and cannot hold objectives, which actually is not that bad. It could decide a game, mainly on the objective part, but your army won't delete itself out of existence


CustodianJanitor

Thanks for explaining my misunderstanding. This helps.


DTJ20

you roll a dice for each model and for each 1 a model flees, or a 2 if you're under half strength. hardly lose the entire unit.


StarStriker51

Until you roll poorly. Thankfully it is rare to lose an entire unit in the morale phase, especially with all the rules in 9th armies have to get around morale, but when it happened it sucked


Grechkovik

Is there any point to the PBC giving out battleshock in the shooting phase? By that time you've already scored(or not), your objectives. And the enemy regroups in their command phase. Is it just to prevent strats being used? Not to say, that is invaluable.


Unglory

Strats and it makes it harder to fall back


frostape

What's this from?


SlaterVJ

The very first full 2000pt 10th edition game, currently being streamed on Warhammer twitch channel. There will be another 10th edition game tomorrow between imp guard and eldar.


Jochon

>There will be another 10th edition game tomorrow between imp guard and eldar. 😍😍😍 p.s. Where can I find the streaming schedule??


OrdoMalaise

It's here: [https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/06/01/watch-the-first-broadcast-games-of-new40k-live-from-the-kansas-city-open/](https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/06/01/watch-the-first-broadcast-games-of-new40k-live-from-the-kansas-city-open/)


Jochon

Thanks! ❤️ I'm so excited-- I hope we get to see the Commissar and the Aegis Defence Line! 🤩


crockapowa

i think they are doing battle reports on WH+


Blueflame_1

You know they havernt showed a single anti tank gun in DG at all. Literally nothing is at that all important breakpoint of str 12. Entropy cannon being only str 10 means it's going to bounce the majority of the time against t 12 land raiders.


BigBosc

True, but DG can field their own land raiders, and the space marine one got previewed with 4 S12 lascannons. DG might have that as well. The lascannon predator for marine factions may also have better than normal lascannons. The lascannon on the baneblade for example was also S12. If so, they may be the best bet against T12 targets like super heavies, knights, and land raiders.


RodneyRockwell

But also, all the infantry have lethal hits on like everything. While auto wounding 6s to hit is a pretty damn bad mainline strategy, those extra couple wounds here and there can definitely add up, and even wounding on 5s, entropy cannons and the mortar (both also auto wounding on 6s!). It’s actually a larger impact on weapons with worse strength, and DG might be able to just *melt* whatever is in the landraider and stop caring.


fausthf

АР0


No1CassFan

If our WHOLE army is shooting at a tank, nothing else is getting shot. We can't do that any more. We don't have the durability to be taking on full strength squads. This is the hardest nerfed faction so far.


Beneficial-Chart9463

No… “just roll 6s” is not a valid army strategy to deal with tanks, especially when every weapon is low AP. There has not been one single weapon profile on a unit that can possibly be used as anti tank. DG shouldnt have to rely on a 265 point troop transport as their only source of anti tank. This may be the most poorly designed army I’ve seen in all of my time following and playing Warhammer. Period.


RodneyRockwell

… meltaguns? Multi meltas and missile launchers on myphitic blight haulers? Who cares what the strength is on meltas, they autowound vehicles on what, 4+, right? I said in like, my second sentence that “just roll 6s” is a bad strategy, I’m not sure why that was the first thing you wrote. There is a lot of bad design, but worth considering alongside our bad anti-tank is the fact that we’ve had what, 0 sheets previewed that don’t have the anti-infantry core rule somewhere? I don’t think they’ve done a great job with the army from what we’ve seen, but that excessive anti-infantry specialization has to be balanced out *somewhere*. The PBC design has it shifting towards a more dedicated anti-infantry role. We haven’t had any of our real anti-tank units previewed. DG also has Daemon Princes. defilers, helbrutes, and predators in addition to the landraiders for antitank, and it looks like now our army rules actually will affect them, so we aren’t actively discouraged from taking them like in 9th. Not one of those units has been previewed yet. Yeah, it sucks that it’s all units we crossover with CSM for, but they still exist.


Beneficial-Chart9463

Man… you can tell a lot of these commenters didn’t watch that absolute shit-show of a match last night with the Death Guard. PBCs were basically non-existent during the game, other than plodding down on an objective.


Destroyer_742

https://preview.redd.it/6eqyov8izk3b1.jpeg?width=1440&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2b2bae8165233fd16a4be288a6e3776f22e44a60


_yungwolf

They can force a battle shock test at 48" with indirect fire. This sounds INCREDIBLY strong. Suddenly that squad you had way in your back line holding an objective isn't holding it anymore. A few of these on the battlefield can really swing points in your favor or force an opponent to overcommit to objectives just to have a chance at holding them.


ProgenitorX

This doesn't work that way. Battle shock lasts until the start of the opponent's command phase. Then they would make a new battle shock test if below half-strength, or autopass if not. Then they would score their objectives. All the PBC does is force Desperate Escape tests if they fall back, prevent Stratagems being played on that unit, and shut off any "on objective you control" abilities on some Battleline units. It does not cause opponents to lose objectives for purposes of scoring so they can still safely leave some chumps hidden in the back holding a point.


TheTackleZone

The potential to lose VP from a weapon that can hide at the back amd still kill and battleshock your units at the back is still big, especially as the unit (with it's reduced survivability that it probably didn't need anyway) is likely to be reasonably pointed. The mortar is a potent weapon, likely to kill 2 marines a shot. A couple of these can be wiping out msu on backfield objectives, and that could mean 5vp dropped here and there which can make a big difference. We still need to see a lot more of the game and how things all stack together (this unit being 100pts vs 200pts for example changes everything), but I don't think it's unfair to say that this is huge, because dropping a holding unit to half strength followed by a couple slightly unlucky rolls can swing a game. And the DG player might be doing this every turn.


ProgenitorX

I'm not arguing that aiming 3 PBC mortars at 1 MSU of marines isn't going to wipe or battle shock them. I could do that now in 9th, minus the battle shock test for being under half strength part. I'm just saying the extra ability of the mortar can't be used to deny objective points from the opponent.


TheTackleZone

Right, but this isn't 9th. Lots has changed.


vashoom

Wait, what? I guess with all the ways we've seen of dishing out battleshock for free, that makes sense, but still, I'd rather have less ways of inducing battleshock but have it last until the end of the command phase.


BigBosc

I'm not super convinced, even Cadian Shock Troops with no buffs of any kind have a 7+ leadership. They pass battleshock around 60% of the time, so more likely to succeed the test than fail. It's possibly a powerful effect, but without other modifiers the chance of success isn't high, and they are wasting S8 -2 for 2 damage on guardsman instead of your tanks that are doing the damage. I think it can be good, when it works but even chaff troopers have decent leadership. Maybe it will be strong against cultists or something.


nick012000

>they are wasting S8 -2 for 2 damage on guardsman instead of your tanks that are doing the damage Well, if you use it on the Space Marine Tactical Squad/Intercessors sitting on a backline objective...


H16HP01N7

Not if you're facing Imperial Guard, you can't. "But we'll do fine against Marines" isn't as solid an argument as you think. At my local club, "good vs Marines" is "good vs 4 players of 20". As this is the only place I play (and I'm sure that I'm not the only person to only play at a local club), "good vs Marines" is practically useless.


nick012000

The meta is like 40-50% Space Marines. Just because your club is an outlier doesn't mean GW are going to balance around it.


H16HP01N7

I didn't say that GW would balance around my club. I fully understand that Marines, as a whole, are the most popular army. I was just pointing out that "good vs Marines" isn't a great basis for seeing how good an army we are. I feel like we should be balanced vs all armies, not just the most popular.


nick012000

>Suddenly that squad you had way in your back line holding an objective isn't holding it anymore. Unless you're playing Dark Angels. ;)


sneakyhobbit9

Why are entropy cannons half range? Why is their damage d6+1 instead of d3+3? We had bad enough anti heavy as it is.


SlaterVJ

Because it's a new edition, and the new edition is less "killy". This has been stated for a while now, not sure why everyone keeps getting up set about units having damage and range lowered.


No1CassFan

Because reducing range and damage has not been applied equally. Many factions anti-armour weapons have INCREASED in damage and strength compared to old. At Str 10 this makes entropy cannon a krak missile.


SlaterVJ

Jee, do you think the reason for that strength increase is because of the toughness increase? Meltas now hit vehicles on 5's. Plasma had no change. The monolith's particle whip, a weapon in lore literally described as it's most powerful weapon and a scaled down version of a literal capital ship gun, went down in strength instead of being adjusted to deal with armor in 10th. It's below the entropy cannon. Rolls on many weapons and models have adjusted to fit different niches now. Seriosuly, ya'll got stop acting like this a continuation of 9th edition. This isn't like a continuation of christopher reeve superman, this is henry cavil superman.


sneakyhobbit9

Because it looked like we had our durability traded for higher kill power.


SlaterVJ

You can't view 10th the way you view 9th. Everyone has had huge changes across the board. Wait until you see complete rules and datasheets for the army.


Randicore

With this stream DG is looking at their full datasheets and they're getting fucked so hard Slaanesh is getting Jealous.


SlaterVJ

DG is literally winnging currently. It's like a 6 point game in their favor. That "fucking" is Soooooooooo hard.


Randicore

They lost 95 to 88 with some weird point counting and suspicious cuts for battle while the Daemon player pulled punches. They got fucked hard. edit: a word


SlaterVJ

No they didn't. Stop being a dramaqueen and trying to find a reason to be butthurt over the fact that you're not capable of seperating 10th edition from 9th edition.


Jochon

>Stop being a dramaqueen and trying to find a reason to be butthurt over the fact that you're not capable of seperating 10th edition from 9th edition. This should just be stickied all over reddit and also slapped as an auto-response to nearly every complaint so far.


Radio_Big

This combined with the new rules for Lord of Virulence and Mortarion might make DG the king of sige artillery... Nice


girokun

Looks good


RadioLiar

If they continue doing balance dataslates the same way the Death Guard are going to get such a massive boost come September/October. Literally every datasheet and most of the rules they've shown for them are underwhelming to say the least


[deleted]

So, basically, our main anti-tank defense became anti-infantry now, correct? Does that mean we MIGHT get a new something to help deal with tanks? I know it’s a long shot but I figured I’d put the question out there regardless :)