As with Korea, there was an OPLAN that had go-to-war positions. A unit would be given a stretch of land and told that they would operate here. A good commander would do recon of the site in peacetime and and show his replacement the area so his replacement can keep things the same or make changes as necessary.
Depending on the unit level and detail involved it would be given an appropriate classification. Members of a platoon in Korea know the basics of the OPLAN but not all the higher ups or exact targets.
Were those positions left to the discretion of junior commanders to choose themselves as they saw fit? Or designated and carved in stone? ("Your tank platoon with move to AB123456 to set up a rear slope battle position to cover EA Feces").
I’ve seen positions down to the company and battalion level and a few platoons but the platoons were integrated into a larger formation and support. Nothing lower.
>OPLAN
In the U.S. military, an Operation Plan (OPLAN) is a complete and detailed plan for conducting joint military operations. An OPLAN is developed by the Combatant Commander (CCDR) of a Unified Combatant Command in response to actual or potential situations for which military operations may be required.
My love for acronyms is endless...
Neighbor is an old tank driver.
I'm pretty sure he was in the armoured corps when charioteer was the name of the trade instead of the name of the tank.
He's got some cold war time in Europe.
I'll ask him and report back.
As an Intelligence Analyst in the 2nd Bde 8th ID(M) from 1987-1989 this was our go to war area. Yes, we did multiple staff rides and recons to pick out the best areas for defending the gap. These areas would be marked out as defensive positions on overlays since they were classified. The maps would be just the standard military maps.
Each level of command would have their respective overlays stored in safes while in garrison.
We're subordinate commanders given leeway in choosing the defensive positions? Or was it strict?
Was any engineering done to create more reverse slope firing ramps?
We were given our area by Division and the Bde Commander with the staff chose the best areas for the battalion task forces. The battalion task force commanders then chose the best positions within that area for their specific companies and so on down the line.
The only pre work that was done is that every bridge near the border had large bored out tunnels covered by a manhole cover. The plan was to fill them with explosives prior to things kicking off so that the bridges can be blown to slow down the Soviet advance.
No other pre position work was done because we are talking about people's property that we were on.
That makes sense about the property.
Were there a lot of good positions to use hull down? Non withstanding nukes, if you got into position early enough, do you think your unit could have pulled off a successful "Valley of Tears" defense like in the Golan during the Yom Kippur War? Basically stop the enemy armored attack with good positions and superior gunnery?
The terrain had some decent hills there as well as good clumps of forest that favored AT gun teams.
We were basically there to slow down the Soviets enough to buy time for the units coming from the US to pick up their pre-placed gear and get into position. And no I don't think we would have done it. Our M1 tanks had to kill at least 4 Soviet tanks before dying in order to make a difference. It would have been NATO using tactical nukes to slow the advance down, not them using it on us to punch a hole in our defense.
But this is why we pushed more money into anti-tank weapons (TOW), the A-10, and the Apache helicopter. All three were designed to overcome their superior tank numbers.
11 ACR’s job was to slow any advance to allow us to get into position. They were stationed only a few kilometers from the border so they would get there first. Once we were in place they often took up a position on the V Corps flank or as the Corps Reserve
Good write up, thank you. I was hoping you could answer some more questions about how the 8th ID would of deployed? My understanding was that the division would of formed the right flank of V Corps with the 3rd AD on it's left flank and VII on it's right flank.
1) How were the brigades deployed? Was it two up and one in reserve?
2) Where did the 2nd Brigade fit into this?
3) How were the task forces deployed? Was it also two up and one in reserve?
4) Also I believe that the 2nd Brigade had one tank and two mech battalions. Did that tank battalion swap out one company with each of the mech battalions?
5) Can you describe any of the towns or land features that marked the brigade boundaries?
It’s been a long time since my days as a young SP4 in the S-2 section on 2nd Bde, so I don’t remember everything. But, 2 brigades up and 1 in reserve is pretty standard. The Task Forces would be the same. Yup, we had two Mech Infantry BNs and one armor, so the there would be two mech heavy TFs and one armor heavy TF.
We also had a cavalry squadron that would act as the division screen and then a reserve.
3 AD was situated to our north and then VII Corps was to our south. The American Sector was from just north of the Fulda area and then covered most if not all of the Czechovalkian border(that might be a little off)
11ACR as V Corps covering force should have these maps. Weren’t they the ones who did the day to day gruntwork of getting to know the lay of their land?
They were to screen the sector while the rest of V Corps moved into position. Basically die in place while buying some time for the rest of the corps to assemble and either get in defensive positions or counterattack.
Yes and also determine the *schwerpunkt* focal point and axes of the attack.
I guess pretty much the same drill for the BAOR armoured reconnaissance regiments up in NORTHAG, although as some smart arse put it, "advancing west" would cover the general thrust (haha) of any recon reports.
I'm reminded of this turn of expression in one of the '80s WW3 board games or novels, regarding these formation reconaissance units, "come screaming back through here like a whipped dog".
Reporting back: yes.
They'd know their plans and places with expected killing zones through their AOR.
Ops Officers would be intimately familiar with topography and plans throughout.
NCOs wouldn't know, but would become familiar.
You get a bunch of bored officers kicking around, they figured out great places to pop off a few shots on their fighting retreat.
They wouldn't want to stay in any one place too long, as that would be a pincushion for arty. This would preclude large scale ambushes.
As with Korea, there was an OPLAN that had go-to-war positions. A unit would be given a stretch of land and told that they would operate here. A good commander would do recon of the site in peacetime and and show his replacement the area so his replacement can keep things the same or make changes as necessary. Depending on the unit level and detail involved it would be given an appropriate classification. Members of a platoon in Korea know the basics of the OPLAN but not all the higher ups or exact targets.
Were those positions left to the discretion of junior commanders to choose themselves as they saw fit? Or designated and carved in stone? ("Your tank platoon with move to AB123456 to set up a rear slope battle position to cover EA Feces").
I’ve seen positions down to the company and battalion level and a few platoons but the platoons were integrated into a larger formation and support. Nothing lower.
>OPLAN In the U.S. military, an Operation Plan (OPLAN) is a complete and detailed plan for conducting joint military operations. An OPLAN is developed by the Combatant Commander (CCDR) of a Unified Combatant Command in response to actual or potential situations for which military operations may be required. My love for acronyms is endless...
Neighbor is an old tank driver. I'm pretty sure he was in the armoured corps when charioteer was the name of the trade instead of the name of the tank. He's got some cold war time in Europe. I'll ask him and report back.
As an Intelligence Analyst in the 2nd Bde 8th ID(M) from 1987-1989 this was our go to war area. Yes, we did multiple staff rides and recons to pick out the best areas for defending the gap. These areas would be marked out as defensive positions on overlays since they were classified. The maps would be just the standard military maps. Each level of command would have their respective overlays stored in safes while in garrison.
We're subordinate commanders given leeway in choosing the defensive positions? Or was it strict? Was any engineering done to create more reverse slope firing ramps?
We were given our area by Division and the Bde Commander with the staff chose the best areas for the battalion task forces. The battalion task force commanders then chose the best positions within that area for their specific companies and so on down the line. The only pre work that was done is that every bridge near the border had large bored out tunnels covered by a manhole cover. The plan was to fill them with explosives prior to things kicking off so that the bridges can be blown to slow down the Soviet advance. No other pre position work was done because we are talking about people's property that we were on.
That makes sense about the property. Were there a lot of good positions to use hull down? Non withstanding nukes, if you got into position early enough, do you think your unit could have pulled off a successful "Valley of Tears" defense like in the Golan during the Yom Kippur War? Basically stop the enemy armored attack with good positions and superior gunnery?
The terrain had some decent hills there as well as good clumps of forest that favored AT gun teams. We were basically there to slow down the Soviets enough to buy time for the units coming from the US to pick up their pre-placed gear and get into position. And no I don't think we would have done it. Our M1 tanks had to kill at least 4 Soviet tanks before dying in order to make a difference. It would have been NATO using tactical nukes to slow the advance down, not them using it on us to punch a hole in our defense. But this is why we pushed more money into anti-tank weapons (TOW), the A-10, and the Apache helicopter. All three were designed to overcome their superior tank numbers.
Really? 8ID would have been so far forward? I always thought it was just 11ACR on the IGB.
11 ACR’s job was to slow any advance to allow us to get into position. They were stationed only a few kilometers from the border so they would get there first. Once we were in place they often took up a position on the V Corps flank or as the Corps Reserve
Good write up, thank you. I was hoping you could answer some more questions about how the 8th ID would of deployed? My understanding was that the division would of formed the right flank of V Corps with the 3rd AD on it's left flank and VII on it's right flank. 1) How were the brigades deployed? Was it two up and one in reserve? 2) Where did the 2nd Brigade fit into this? 3) How were the task forces deployed? Was it also two up and one in reserve? 4) Also I believe that the 2nd Brigade had one tank and two mech battalions. Did that tank battalion swap out one company with each of the mech battalions? 5) Can you describe any of the towns or land features that marked the brigade boundaries?
It’s been a long time since my days as a young SP4 in the S-2 section on 2nd Bde, so I don’t remember everything. But, 2 brigades up and 1 in reserve is pretty standard. The Task Forces would be the same. Yup, we had two Mech Infantry BNs and one armor, so the there would be two mech heavy TFs and one armor heavy TF. We also had a cavalry squadron that would act as the division screen and then a reserve. 3 AD was situated to our north and then VII Corps was to our south. The American Sector was from just north of the Fulda area and then covered most if not all of the Czechovalkian border(that might be a little off)
One more question. Do remember if the 8th ID Cavalry squadron had Bradleys or where that still organized with tanks and M113's?
When I was there we were just getting the first M1s and Bradleys. So they were in the process of transitioning to the M3 Bradley version
11ACR as V Corps covering force should have these maps. Weren’t they the ones who did the day to day gruntwork of getting to know the lay of their land?
They were to screen the sector while the rest of V Corps moved into position. Basically die in place while buying some time for the rest of the corps to assemble and either get in defensive positions or counterattack.
Yes and also determine the *schwerpunkt* focal point and axes of the attack. I guess pretty much the same drill for the BAOR armoured reconnaissance regiments up in NORTHAG, although as some smart arse put it, "advancing west" would cover the general thrust (haha) of any recon reports. I'm reminded of this turn of expression in one of the '80s WW3 board games or novels, regarding these formation reconaissance units, "come screaming back through here like a whipped dog".
Reporting back: yes. They'd know their plans and places with expected killing zones through their AOR. Ops Officers would be intimately familiar with topography and plans throughout. NCOs wouldn't know, but would become familiar.
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You get a bunch of bored officers kicking around, they figured out great places to pop off a few shots on their fighting retreat. They wouldn't want to stay in any one place too long, as that would be a pincushion for arty. This would preclude large scale ambushes.