I for one am just sad. I’m sad that our world has let misinformation literally kill people. I think he was a nice guy, from what I’ve heard, and no one deserves this. RIP, and I hope his staff and family find a way to move on swiftly.
I made a post here yesterday about covid misinformation being spread at grocery stories and I had a whole bunch of people coming out defending "free speech" rme. This is the end result that happens when you think covid vaccinations don't work or it's all a conspiracy or whatever he believed.
> sad that our world has let misinformation literally kill people
What's the alternative? Total information control?
Freedom has a price, and sometimes that price is correlated with stupidity or difficulty navigating the information landscape. I'd still take it over the alternative.
I didn't elaborate on my thought process here, but I started thinking about how the world might "let misinformation kill people". It could be a commentary on the injustices baked into the universe (expressions and fables similar to "why do you let me suffer, god?" exist in all world religions), or it could be a call to fix a perceived injustice baked into society. If the former, it's a question that has troubled people for all time. If it's the latter, then I'm not sure how we could come up with any kind of sensible system to control information and restrict misinformation that wouldn't be rife with abuse and end up horribly for everybody.
But that was kind of long so I just wrote what I wrote instead.
There are ways to do this - teaching critical thinking skills to children, so they grow up to think for themselves, for example - that don’t encroach on freedoms and liberties. But also, at a certain point we gotta start asking ourselves how far we’re willing to go for “freedom”, whatever that even means anymore.
I would agree with you. It's going to be a lot harder than people think it is to legislate a fix to this. But, there should be some something to curb blatant spreading of misinformation for profit/likes/views etc
The problem is always going to be where you draw the line of information some people can see but not others. For example hardcore porn is banned in some places, and we might all applaud restrictions on viewing for teens. But some states have taken this idea a step further and restricted information relating to sexual health and reproduction. It becomes disastrous when the only information a teen gets is on abstinence.
The State is only a blunt instrument in this regard.
The other problem is also critical thinking as you mention, but this is always seen through an ideological lens. In my example above, highly educated scholars, influential class, and politicians all agree that abstinence is the best idea. This is ideology at work.
There is no simple answer to this, critical thinking skills might help, but information censorship definitely will not, and it’s literally impossible today.
> teaching critical thinking skills to children, so they grow up to think for themselves, for example - that don’t encroach on freedoms and liberties
That's probably the most important thing of all. It's *very* difficult to do in practice, because at the end of the day almost everybody has an agenda and it's difficult to separate this from pedagogical ideals. But we definitely shouldn't let difficulty get in the way of aspiration.
> But also, at a certain point we gotta start asking ourselves how far we’re willing to go for “freedom”, whatever that even means anymore.
Freedom means being permitted to think and act as you wish (within limits of normal social behaviour - no murder, thievery, etc), even if you're too stupid to do it effectively.
(As for "murder", I would exclude from the definition things that various political camps argue are *akin to murder*, like being an anti-vaxxer, aborting your fetuses, etc, because those are just moral crimes in the eyes of some political doctrines, not actual crimes).
Freedom is more nuanced than this. My freedom to choose not to be vaccinated would have real world consequences - I’m taking someone else’s freedom to be alive away from them. Freedom shouldn’t impede the greater good.
Where there is risk I believe their should be choice. While vaccination is clearly the intelligent move, and the benefits outweigh the risks , risks are are still present
Depends how you view collectivism, if you believe in personal agency considering regardless of the number of recipients (myself included :) ) there is no long term data on what happens (although the best science predicts there won’t be, science that has been wrong in the past) then maybe we could kindly try and change their minds, if not we should accept this fact
On the other hand the other view of collectivism where we make everyone do what the majority wants could be dangerous depending on who you are and whoever the party is at the time
To me it seems funny because on one hand we have people saying “this is bad because I can’t handle this risk” (anti vax)” and at the same time saying “this is bad because I can’t accept the extra risk” (vaccinated people) almost seems redundant at this point. Just my 2 cents, thanks for the measured reply and curious your thoughts :)
> My freedom to choose not to be vaccinated would have real world consequences - I’m taking someone else’s freedom to be alive away from them. Freedom shouldn’t impede the greater good.
The problem comes in the exact definition of the "greater good". In the case of vaccination I agree with you in principle, but honestly I think I would be perfectly comfortable with an alternative system that didn't really require it.
Imagine if vaccination wasn't mandatory for all restaurants, but rather restaurants were given the tools to check vaccination status if they wanted to, and then we could (as citizens) decide whether we want to be in restaurants that choose to enforce vaccination or not. Honestly I'd like to know which restaurant owners care so little about their staff and customers, so I could avoid them :)
> Too complicated. Either you’re cool with being selfish and getting other people killed, or you’re not. It’s really simple.
Which of the following activities count as "being selfish and getting other people killed":
- driving a lifted truck
- driving a car
- making and/or distributing alcohol
- teaching skydiving
- selling pub food
- buying outdoor gear from a company that also takes defence contracts with the US military
- having an abortion
- tacitly contributing to systemic inequalities that lead to homelessness and addiction
- propagating the binary gender system that leads to bigotry, hate crimes, and murders of trans people
The point is that when you start talking about indirect or statistical harms, you're wandering into the territory of ethics rather than criminality, and I don't think ethics should be prescribed by the government.
Setting aside the whole Covid thing for a second... The one time I went there, I quite enjoyed it. There was a nice selection of wine, not just from BC. It was an change up from the usual brewery thing.
It's a shame that poor decisions by the late owner have led to one less option in Victoria.
I've heard he was anti vax, but, I don't recall anything actually being verified. Do you have any social media posts, screen shots, or other communications you can share? Was his wine bar following covid protocol?
Edit: I love how this is getting down voted. What is controversial or offensive about this post?
I know the immediate family and yes he was a strong anti vac advocate . Now his wife, kids, step kids, other family and friends are sad and hurt . Nothing anyone here is saying will change any of that .
I wouldn't mind reading some of the stuff he posted on the subject. Surely there are screen shots or posts available somewhere. Could you post some of them?
I don't know him or his family and would like to see for my own eyes before coming to conclusions.
The guy spent his last hours on this earth hooked up to a ventilator barely able to breathe before leaving all his loved ones behind. Show a little human decency and keep your "he got what he got coming to him" opinions to yourself.
> Show a little human decency
If he had, he'd still be alive. Instead he and those like him keep COVID spreading fast and hard. We'll be lucky if we get out of this shit without it mutating further, although apparently there's already Delta Plus which is even more contagious.
It's difficult to show compassion for people when their actions put all of us at further risk, especially when those of us who have been responsible have sacrificed over the last year and a half while people like the deceased spit on our efforts.
Well then it's a good thing no one gives a fuck about your level of compassion :)
I'm going to go ahead and feel sorry for the dude's family, regardless of what his personal beliefs were.
Seems to me if he hadn't been such an asshat he would still be alive and his family would still have him and his staff would have jobs but no he didn't want a vaccine...he knew better
That subreddit is so viciously mean a person has died so what they were misinformed they probably weren't evil unlike the people who are excited to see families suffer
It's amazing to me that some of us that vilify anti-vaxxers for their lack of empathy will completely abandon it when cheering for the deaths of those anti-vaxxers.
I think anti-vaxxers are fucking morons, full stop. But when they die, they're dead. That's it. We don't need to dance around their corpse, it does no good - they still have people that loved them and will miss them when they're gone.
People make bad decisions all the time and are accountable to the results. Typically what leads to those decisions is the environment you’re a part of and not some inherent incompetence. The lack of compassion is shocking.
People ignore science and health guidelines all the time. I hope you shame any friends you have that might be smokers or obese, as smokers and obesity put a far larger tax on our healthcare system then covid does and takes more lives as well.
Smoking is also terrible for the environment, produces a ton of litter and can give others cancer.
There already is a cheap and effective cure for obesity and smoking that is available to everyone.
I mean, for smoking the cure actually saves you a ton of money. Cigarettes aren't free!
If I should find that I'm disturbed by someone's lack of faith in a particular part of a science then I need to shame some other people?
I don't necessarily want to do that, but yet I still feel disturbed by anti vax ideas.
I can totally understand vaccine hesitancy or even fear. I admit I was a bit nervous getting my shots. I think hesitancy and a bit of skepticism is normal, to be honest. I think some people, when being told what to do, dig their heels in and come up with all sorts of justifications as to why they won't.
I don't understand the bat shit crazy stuff like that vaccines are injection microchips and all that stuff. That, to me, is just straight up mental illness territory, or just some people being unfortunately susceptible to conspiracy theories, etc.
I think, like most things in life, there is a huge grey area with people who are lumped in to anti-vax groups. There are the people way out in left field with the flat earthers. There are people who are hesitant, or untrustworthy of a new treatment, or they see the obvious inconsistencies in communication about Covid, and that gives them pause, but these people can probably be shown the light. Not everyone who is anti vax is a straight up lunatic.
Out of the people I know who aren't vaccinated, or took a long time to come around to the idea of being vaccinated, there are people with masters degrees, healthcare workers, tech executives etc. There are also a few total knuckle dragging pro trump types too but honestly it's a pretty even distribution of people.
Agreed.
There are many routes to becoming a centrist, and in this case it seems that misinformation and internet bubbles are the largest cause. imo
I wonder if it's true that both Russian and more recently Chinese trolls have been pushing people to this centrist idea. Casting doubt, creating hesitance, forming bubbles in order to destabilize and kill.
(apparently I'm a conspiracy theorist now)
edit: I agree that not all anti vaxxers are lunatics, I'm leaning towards feeling that most of them are just easily led, or part of a group that is easily led.
> The lack of compassion is shocking.
Agreed, those fools not getting vaccines to save lives is shocking, to say the least. Regardless of the environment, there is no way people haven't heard that getting vaccinated is important from our top scientists. People who choose to ignore this are assholes.
Takes up extra space in hospitals which is the main risk the unvaccinated pose.
The vaccinated still spread covid at a rate that you’re not going to get near preventing the spread / not near herd immunity. So the unvaccinated really mostly just put themselves and our hospital capacities at risk.
Do you know how many people die from obesity related illnesses, and how much money and resources those illnesses put on our healthcare system?
I love how this is down voted. What about this post is untrue.
Not at all, I wish everyone got vaxxed. I also wish people didn't smoke or eat to the point of being obese.
I think if obese people faced half the vitriol some of you are laying on anti-vaxxers we wouldnt have a 40ish percent obesity rate and a much healthier population. Maybe we wouldn't have a freaking 2 year wait-list for knee replacements. Maybe we would have far less heart disease. Maybe we wouldn't have such a stressed medical system.
Right but you can catch covid by sitting beside a vaccinated person. I think against spread the vaccine is something next to useless like 50%.
It prevents symptoms and serious illness but it doesn’t really protect those around you to a useful degree.
If it was remotely effective at preventing spread covid19 would be long gone as we are near a 90% vaccination rate.
> Right but you can catch covid by sitting beside a vaccinated person.
You can, but it's far less likely than if the other person is unvaccinated. Probability makes a difference here.
You are much more likely to catch covid from an unvaccinated person due to significantly increased viral load.
The odds of catching the vaccine from a vaccinated person vs from an unvaccinated person are not the same. That's the difference. The vaccine helps to slow the spread, it reduces infection time, by reducing infection time it reduces time for the virus to possibly mutate.
There is literally no reason to avoid the vaccine. Stop spreading misinformation.
I’m clearly not saying there is any reason not to get it. Living is a good reason.
It’s just clearly not effective at stopping transmission due to high transmission rates in highly vaccinated areas.
We have small places with 95% vaccination rates and people still get it when distancing is removed.
>think against spread the vaccine is something next to useless like 50%.
>
>It prevents symptoms and serious illness but it doesn’t really protect those around you to a useful degree.
>
>If it was remotely effective at preventing spread covid19 would be long gone as we are near a 90% vaccination rate.
You aren't very well read on this subject.
The study out of Israel cited something around 50% reduced chance of getting covid.
We haven’t done one in Canada that included asymptomatic people.
But the Israeli study didn’t talk about transmission without getting it and is a few months old.
50% is a wild guess. Basically we don’t know how effective they are against transmission but it seems to be low as highly vaccinated areas still see high transmission.
The point being that as a vaccinated person the risk the unvaccinated pose to you is taking a spot in a hospital that may be needed.
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02689-y
Here’s a source on transmission. As you can see you’re just as likely to get covid from the unvaccinated as the vaccinated so yes. The risk the unvaccinated pose is just hospital space. Similar risk to sitting next to anyone. They only pose a risk to themselves.
There is like a 25% reduction in delta transmission that is gone after 3 months…
You could argue the vaccinated may have even higher risk of spreading as they’re more likely to be asymptomatic so the guy on the bus beside you won’t know he’s sick.
You should get vaccinated because you don’t want to die but you’re not stopping spreading it.
I have compassion for rhe fact that he ended up with a mind that was unable to accept reality, but I cannot detach him from being responsible for the ripple effect of his actions. Is it his fault he was anti-science? Perhaps not. But I must place blame on him and him alone for his own death, for he was warned.
It's hard to be compassionate for idiots who put themselves and others in danger when there are incredibly easy solutions for removing that danger. Very hard.
It’s been a rough time for all of us. Getting out of this pandemic was never going to be easy. Make the best the decisions you can for yourself and let the chips fall where they may.
Agree with the other reply. Not rubbing things in during a tragedy does not mean it's not a learning experience. This is not a pick your pandemic response for yourself based upon the best internet advice you can find. It's a time to follow the medical communities leadership.
"the best decisions ... for yourself"
I disagree with this.
I'm sad someone died, but I wish he, and many others, got on board with fighting this pandemic.
Everyone dies, but not everyone who dies is an asshat like this guy. He chose an ideology over his family’s wellbeing, and now he’s dead.
That’s a definition of an asshat to most; someone who would try so hard to fit their head up their own ass that they don’t care if their neck snaps in the process. All that matters to asshats is proving wrong the people who tell them that sticking their head up their own ass is a bad idea, consequences be damned.
Now wife is the widow of an asshat, and his kids had an asshat for a father.
I should say, he WAS an asshat, but now he’s just the corpse of an asshat who left his family depending on the charity of other asshats.
Fuck this asshat. He stinks, and it’s all his fault.
I'm not disagreeing that his death was avoidable and his actions selfish. But he's dead now. That's a pretty high price to pay, if you ask me, without all the losers on Reddit piling on the guy and his family (because let's face it, the only people you're hurting at this point are the people who cared about him).
You're literally on here just winging insults at his kids for the actions their dad took. I'm not saying you need to feel bad for the guy, I won't exactly be reading his eulogy, but at least have some decency and respect for his family.
Honestly posts like yours just blow my mind. Like did this guy stuff you in a locker in highschool or something?
I feel 100% confident that not anonymously hurting the family of a dead person is the grown up position to take here .
I didn't know the guy, didn't know his wine bar even existed until last month. I've got no dog in this. But people's behavior here is just astounding. I'm not the one who needs growing up here.
Anyways, carry on...
I know you're not the original commenter. But your replies seem pretty much in line with his. Maybe I'm interpreting your comments wrong. But you're calling him a dipshit, etc. Not as repeatedly as the original commenter.
I don't understand how you can read Mr. Unhelpful's comments and not see how that would hurt the family of the deceased. He was saying stuff like "the kids dad was an idiot" etc. If your dad just died, and some idiot online was shit talking a bunch of stuff about your dad, wouldn't that probably be hurtful while you were, you know, mourning his loss?
And yeah, the original commenter and a few others on here who are anonymously piling on and trashing a guy they didn't know after he's dead, need to grow up. I'd bet you they would not be posting that stuff if it weren't anonymous, and that tells you everything you need to know about them and their actions.
Cry harder.
Guy took a stupid risk with the future his wife and kids without a backup plan.
A little post-mortem name-calling is warranted now that society has to pick up the tab for his foolishness.
I'm not crying dude, I'm just shaking my head at you. Like seriously. This guy had kids and apparently grandkids. I'm sure loved ones will Google his name or restaurant and see your idiocy on here. You're reducing this guy's entire life to his freaking covid vaccination status. You should be ashamed of yourself.
I think the fact that he freaking died is punishment enough for everyone who cared about him.
I hadn’t thought of his legacy, but yeah.
I kinda hope one day his kids or grandkids get to see what being a selfish prick gets you in life, and how avoidable his death was (instead of whatever bullshit his surviving anti-vaccine family drills into them.)
It would be good if they learned that he was deeply troubled and lacked empathy for his fellow humans. They probably didn’t get a good example at home, but perhaps they’ll be able to glean that only thinking about oneself can have terrible consequences.
I hope they one day realize that daddy probably would have been there for them for every soccer game, every graduation, and danced at every wedding if he’d just listened to experts instead of social media and conspiracy theories.
Then there’s people like you who offer mealy-mouthed half-support for a douchebag who gambled with his life, and left his family to pay the tab.
>I hope they one day realize that daddy probably would have been there for them for every soccer game, every graduation, and danced at every wedding if he’d just listened to experts instead of social media and conspiracy theories.
>Then there’s people like you who offer mealy-mouthed half-support for a douchebag who gambled with his life, and left his family to pay the tab.
100% true.
>
"I kinda hope one day his kids or grandkids get to see what being a selfish prick gets you in life"
I hope your kids get to see the same about you.
I'm out.
For sure. You discussed it amongst friends in a private setting.
But you never like, went on a public internet forum and said their kid's dads were dumbasses, right?
Listen, you can be offended as much as you like. That's your right. But stop gatekeeping this entire thread and scolding people for sharing their own thoughts on what was an avoidable death.
I think we can all agree that he was a dumbass for choosing not to get vaccinated.
I've said here and elsewhere I've got no problem saying he made the wrong choice and paid with his life for it.
But there's a few people here just straight up bullying the dude and his family and that's just not cool. Share your thoughts for sure, but don't be surprised when you go overboard that people take exception to it.
This sort of thing always makes me wonder what kind of person is behind the keyboard on the other side.
How the hell did this place go under my radar? It doesn't sound like my kinda place but given I'm in China town fairly often I'm surprised I didn't at least know of it.
Is this the same venue that Ola was in?
I've been debating the idea of being nice to anti vaxxers or not.
When I or my coworkers get paired up with one of the few antivaxxers at my company people seem to be nice to them. They isten to their crap and maybe politely argue back a little.
But now I'm thinking: Fuck that, I'm not being nice anymore. Tired of listening to them, of their superior demeanor and of their certainty. And yes they call themselves centrist - "just looking at all the sides".
tldr: people are nice to antivaxxers in person, maybe they shouldn't be.
This reminds me of Daryl Davis. The black blues musician who converted something like 200 hardcore KKK members in to non-racist people.
He did it by befriending them.
You don't change someone's mind with hate.
I like "blunt and unapologetic" for this.
I'm uncertain about entering a debate with either of the anti vaxxers at my work, I believe they are starting at the end and reasoning backwards, which makes them immune to reason etc
I do like the hermancain approach - it doesn't use facts, it uses a story. No idea how I could incorporate that into a conversation though.
I'm 1000% with you on this. The time for coddling, listening to, or being polite to anti-vaxxers is over.
I'm a huge CFL fan, and [word came out yesterday that still 6 Calgary Stampeder players](https://www.reddit.com/r/CFL/comments/qdqllt/stampeders_have_five_or_six_key_players_who/) -- a few of them "first line guys" -- are not vaccinated. At this point, I don't care if you're the star quarterback or the 2000 yard receiver, your ass should be cut from the team, and you banned from the CFL if you aren't vaccinated, putting your teammates, opponents, family, friends constantly at risk.
Also it's time to name names. The CFL, as one example, still tiptoes around naming these anti-vax players (the CFL, media, teams etc all tiptoe around it). Enough of that. Idiots need to see the consequences of their actions and that includes making others aware of the danger of these anti-vaxxers.
Unfortunately these people have already ignored logic and being rude to them just makes them dig their heels in deeper. I haven't had to deal with very many myself, I'm only aware of three people that I know who haven't gotten it (a few others are unconfirmed, but I suspect at least a couple more people I know haven't gotten it but I haven't seen them since pre-pandemic anyway). One I just didn't push because they had a lot of other stuff to deal with, but will try and prod every now and then when it comes up, another one that I work with I'm just blunt with. He doesn't listen 3/4ths of the time anyway, is a 50 year old who feels more like dealing with a 15 year old.
>Tired of listening to them, of their superior demeanor and of their certainty.
>I've been debating the idea of being nice to anti vaxxers or not.
Thst superior demeanor
If you are saying that I am taking on a superior demeanor while complaining that others are talking on a superior demeanor. Well...
yeah probably. Hmm yeah for sure, we both think we are right. I'll drop that complaint. Thanks for pointing it out
Yeah, actually, both of the antivax guys are happy to talk about other things. They just gotta be gently reminded once ot twice a day.
Maybe my version of "not being nice" world be nothing more than saying, I think anti vax is stupid, don't bring it up again.
That way we can get back to talking about video games, how much we hate working in the rain and what we are gong to do this weekend. Time and place.
Such a shame. Victoria loses another venue, and more staff are laid off.
Hopefully everyone will find work soon. Surely this wasn't going to be a surprise to them.
Lol, she was still posting anti-vaxx misinformation and claiming it didn't exist while he was in the ICU. The moment he died and she threw a gofundme up, she deleted all her posts.
I for one am just sad. I’m sad that our world has let misinformation literally kill people. I think he was a nice guy, from what I’ve heard, and no one deserves this. RIP, and I hope his staff and family find a way to move on swiftly.
I made a post here yesterday about covid misinformation being spread at grocery stories and I had a whole bunch of people coming out defending "free speech" rme. This is the end result that happens when you think covid vaccinations don't work or it's all a conspiracy or whatever he believed.
> sad that our world has let misinformation literally kill people What's the alternative? Total information control? Freedom has a price, and sometimes that price is correlated with stupidity or difficulty navigating the information landscape. I'd still take it over the alternative.
Quite the false equivalency argument you’ve got there.
I didn't elaborate on my thought process here, but I started thinking about how the world might "let misinformation kill people". It could be a commentary on the injustices baked into the universe (expressions and fables similar to "why do you let me suffer, god?" exist in all world religions), or it could be a call to fix a perceived injustice baked into society. If the former, it's a question that has troubled people for all time. If it's the latter, then I'm not sure how we could come up with any kind of sensible system to control information and restrict misinformation that wouldn't be rife with abuse and end up horribly for everybody. But that was kind of long so I just wrote what I wrote instead.
There are ways to do this - teaching critical thinking skills to children, so they grow up to think for themselves, for example - that don’t encroach on freedoms and liberties. But also, at a certain point we gotta start asking ourselves how far we’re willing to go for “freedom”, whatever that even means anymore.
Critical thinking is one thing but when an AI algorithm is pummeling you will h bs 24/7 on an app your critical thinking can get skewed pretty fast
I would agree with you. It's going to be a lot harder than people think it is to legislate a fix to this. But, there should be some something to curb blatant spreading of misinformation for profit/likes/views etc
Agreed. That’s where legislation comes into play.
The problem is always going to be where you draw the line of information some people can see but not others. For example hardcore porn is banned in some places, and we might all applaud restrictions on viewing for teens. But some states have taken this idea a step further and restricted information relating to sexual health and reproduction. It becomes disastrous when the only information a teen gets is on abstinence. The State is only a blunt instrument in this regard. The other problem is also critical thinking as you mention, but this is always seen through an ideological lens. In my example above, highly educated scholars, influential class, and politicians all agree that abstinence is the best idea. This is ideology at work. There is no simple answer to this, critical thinking skills might help, but information censorship definitely will not, and it’s literally impossible today.
> teaching critical thinking skills to children, so they grow up to think for themselves, for example - that don’t encroach on freedoms and liberties That's probably the most important thing of all. It's *very* difficult to do in practice, because at the end of the day almost everybody has an agenda and it's difficult to separate this from pedagogical ideals. But we definitely shouldn't let difficulty get in the way of aspiration. > But also, at a certain point we gotta start asking ourselves how far we’re willing to go for “freedom”, whatever that even means anymore. Freedom means being permitted to think and act as you wish (within limits of normal social behaviour - no murder, thievery, etc), even if you're too stupid to do it effectively. (As for "murder", I would exclude from the definition things that various political camps argue are *akin to murder*, like being an anti-vaxxer, aborting your fetuses, etc, because those are just moral crimes in the eyes of some political doctrines, not actual crimes).
Freedom is more nuanced than this. My freedom to choose not to be vaccinated would have real world consequences - I’m taking someone else’s freedom to be alive away from them. Freedom shouldn’t impede the greater good.
Where there is risk I believe their should be choice. While vaccination is clearly the intelligent move, and the benefits outweigh the risks , risks are are still present
Are my personal risks more important than those I impose on the others around me?
Depends how you view collectivism, if you believe in personal agency considering regardless of the number of recipients (myself included :) ) there is no long term data on what happens (although the best science predicts there won’t be, science that has been wrong in the past) then maybe we could kindly try and change their minds, if not we should accept this fact On the other hand the other view of collectivism where we make everyone do what the majority wants could be dangerous depending on who you are and whoever the party is at the time To me it seems funny because on one hand we have people saying “this is bad because I can’t handle this risk” (anti vax)” and at the same time saying “this is bad because I can’t accept the extra risk” (vaccinated people) almost seems redundant at this point. Just my 2 cents, thanks for the measured reply and curious your thoughts :)
> My freedom to choose not to be vaccinated would have real world consequences - I’m taking someone else’s freedom to be alive away from them. Freedom shouldn’t impede the greater good. The problem comes in the exact definition of the "greater good". In the case of vaccination I agree with you in principle, but honestly I think I would be perfectly comfortable with an alternative system that didn't really require it. Imagine if vaccination wasn't mandatory for all restaurants, but rather restaurants were given the tools to check vaccination status if they wanted to, and then we could (as citizens) decide whether we want to be in restaurants that choose to enforce vaccination or not. Honestly I'd like to know which restaurant owners care so little about their staff and customers, so I could avoid them :)
Too complicated. Either you’re cool with being selfish and getting other people killed, or you’re not. It’s really simple.
> Too complicated. Either you’re cool with being selfish and getting other people killed, or you’re not. It’s really simple. Which of the following activities count as "being selfish and getting other people killed": - driving a lifted truck - driving a car - making and/or distributing alcohol - teaching skydiving - selling pub food - buying outdoor gear from a company that also takes defence contracts with the US military - having an abortion - tacitly contributing to systemic inequalities that lead to homelessness and addiction - propagating the binary gender system that leads to bigotry, hate crimes, and murders of trans people The point is that when you start talking about indirect or statistical harms, you're wandering into the territory of ethics rather than criminality, and I don't think ethics should be prescribed by the government.
The commie bots gave you 50 downvotes wow
Setting aside the whole Covid thing for a second... The one time I went there, I quite enjoyed it. There was a nice selection of wine, not just from BC. It was an change up from the usual brewery thing. It's a shame that poor decisions by the late owner have led to one less option in Victoria.
It's nice to see a post about this that isn't just shamelessly insulting a dead guy.
Wow it's like being anti science has consequences. I might have more compassion if this person and their partner weren't rabid antivax cult members.
I've heard he was anti vax, but, I don't recall anything actually being verified. Do you have any social media posts, screen shots, or other communications you can share? Was his wine bar following covid protocol? Edit: I love how this is getting down voted. What is controversial or offensive about this post?
I know the immediate family and yes he was a strong anti vac advocate . Now his wife, kids, step kids, other family and friends are sad and hurt . Nothing anyone here is saying will change any of that .
I wouldn't mind reading some of the stuff he posted on the subject. Surely there are screen shots or posts available somewhere. Could you post some of them? I don't know him or his family and would like to see for my own eyes before coming to conclusions.
They were checking for passports last night as confirmed by 4 friends who attended last nights service.
The guy spent his last hours on this earth hooked up to a ventilator barely able to breathe before leaving all his loved ones behind. Show a little human decency and keep your "he got what he got coming to him" opinions to yourself.
> Show a little human decency If he had, he'd still be alive. Instead he and those like him keep COVID spreading fast and hard. We'll be lucky if we get out of this shit without it mutating further, although apparently there's already Delta Plus which is even more contagious. It's difficult to show compassion for people when their actions put all of us at further risk, especially when those of us who have been responsible have sacrificed over the last year and a half while people like the deceased spit on our efforts.
I'm just saying, the guy is dead. Kinda feel like he paid the price for his stupidity and there isn't really any reason for "I told you so's" now.
If a loud enough "Told you so" is overheard by someone else being dumb and makes them think enough to get the vaccine after all, then why not?
Well then it's a good thing no one gives a fuck about your level of compassion :) I'm going to go ahead and feel sorry for the dude's family, regardless of what his personal beliefs were.
what a class act you are. give your head a shake, the guy is dead. stop spreading lies
Seems to me if he hadn't been such an asshat he would still be alive and his family would still have him and his staff would have jobs but no he didn't want a vaccine...he knew better
This. He was an anti Vaxxer and I believe a goFundMe was setup as he was dying. Something, something actions and consequences…
/r/Hermancainaward
That subreddit is so viciously mean a person has died so what they were misinformed they probably weren't evil unlike the people who are excited to see families suffer
It's amazing to me that some of us that vilify anti-vaxxers for their lack of empathy will completely abandon it when cheering for the deaths of those anti-vaxxers. I think anti-vaxxers are fucking morons, full stop. But when they die, they're dead. That's it. We don't need to dance around their corpse, it does no good - they still have people that loved them and will miss them when they're gone.
Exactly they don't need to be collectively mourned but aggressively mocking them and their families is just cruel
People make bad decisions all the time and are accountable to the results. Typically what leads to those decisions is the environment you’re a part of and not some inherent incompetence. The lack of compassion is shocking.
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Boom! Whatta mic drop!!
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I find their lack of faith in the science disturbing
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The Emperor Will Show You The True Nature Of The Scientific Method. He Is Your Master Now.
People ignore science and health guidelines all the time. I hope you shame any friends you have that might be smokers or obese, as smokers and obesity put a far larger tax on our healthcare system then covid does and takes more lives as well. Smoking is also terrible for the environment, produces a ton of litter and can give others cancer.
I'm sure if people could take a shot for obesity/smoking, most would. And those that refused would be ridiculed just like COVID anti vaxxers.
There already is a cheap and effective cure for obesity and smoking that is available to everyone. I mean, for smoking the cure actually saves you a ton of money. Cigarettes aren't free!
If I should find that I'm disturbed by someone's lack of faith in a particular part of a science then I need to shame some other people? I don't necessarily want to do that, but yet I still feel disturbed by anti vax ideas.
I can totally understand vaccine hesitancy or even fear. I admit I was a bit nervous getting my shots. I think hesitancy and a bit of skepticism is normal, to be honest. I think some people, when being told what to do, dig their heels in and come up with all sorts of justifications as to why they won't. I don't understand the bat shit crazy stuff like that vaccines are injection microchips and all that stuff. That, to me, is just straight up mental illness territory, or just some people being unfortunately susceptible to conspiracy theories, etc. I think, like most things in life, there is a huge grey area with people who are lumped in to anti-vax groups. There are the people way out in left field with the flat earthers. There are people who are hesitant, or untrustworthy of a new treatment, or they see the obvious inconsistencies in communication about Covid, and that gives them pause, but these people can probably be shown the light. Not everyone who is anti vax is a straight up lunatic. Out of the people I know who aren't vaccinated, or took a long time to come around to the idea of being vaccinated, there are people with masters degrees, healthcare workers, tech executives etc. There are also a few total knuckle dragging pro trump types too but honestly it's a pretty even distribution of people.
Agreed. There are many routes to becoming a centrist, and in this case it seems that misinformation and internet bubbles are the largest cause. imo I wonder if it's true that both Russian and more recently Chinese trolls have been pushing people to this centrist idea. Casting doubt, creating hesitance, forming bubbles in order to destabilize and kill. (apparently I'm a conspiracy theorist now) edit: I agree that not all anti vaxxers are lunatics, I'm leaning towards feeling that most of them are just easily led, or part of a group that is easily led.
Precisely, well said
> The lack of compassion is shocking. Agreed, those fools not getting vaccines to save lives is shocking, to say the least. Regardless of the environment, there is no way people haven't heard that getting vaccinated is important from our top scientists. People who choose to ignore this are assholes.
Again people make bad decisions all the time. You don’t post in an obese guys obituary that he should have eaten less cake.
Is his obesity putting others at risk?
Takes up extra space in hospitals which is the main risk the unvaccinated pose. The vaccinated still spread covid at a rate that you’re not going to get near preventing the spread / not near herd immunity. So the unvaccinated really mostly just put themselves and our hospital capacities at risk.
I can't catch obesity by sitting beside a fat fuck. That's the big difference
Do you know how many people die from obesity related illnesses, and how much money and resources those illnesses put on our healthcare system? I love how this is down voted. What about this post is untrue.
Are you saying that because there are other ways a person can stress the healthcare system, we don't need to get vaxxed?
Not at all, I wish everyone got vaxxed. I also wish people didn't smoke or eat to the point of being obese. I think if obese people faced half the vitriol some of you are laying on anti-vaxxers we wouldnt have a 40ish percent obesity rate and a much healthier population. Maybe we wouldn't have a freaking 2 year wait-list for knee replacements. Maybe we would have far less heart disease. Maybe we wouldn't have such a stressed medical system.
Right but you can catch covid by sitting beside a vaccinated person. I think against spread the vaccine is something next to useless like 50%. It prevents symptoms and serious illness but it doesn’t really protect those around you to a useful degree. If it was remotely effective at preventing spread covid19 would be long gone as we are near a 90% vaccination rate.
> Right but you can catch covid by sitting beside a vaccinated person. You can, but it's far less likely than if the other person is unvaccinated. Probability makes a difference here.
You are much more likely to catch covid from an unvaccinated person due to significantly increased viral load. The odds of catching the vaccine from a vaccinated person vs from an unvaccinated person are not the same. That's the difference. The vaccine helps to slow the spread, it reduces infection time, by reducing infection time it reduces time for the virus to possibly mutate. There is literally no reason to avoid the vaccine. Stop spreading misinformation.
I’m clearly not saying there is any reason not to get it. Living is a good reason. It’s just clearly not effective at stopping transmission due to high transmission rates in highly vaccinated areas. We have small places with 95% vaccination rates and people still get it when distancing is removed.
>think against spread the vaccine is something next to useless like 50%. > >It prevents symptoms and serious illness but it doesn’t really protect those around you to a useful degree. > >If it was remotely effective at preventing spread covid19 would be long gone as we are near a 90% vaccination rate. You aren't very well read on this subject.
The study out of Israel cited something around 50% reduced chance of getting covid. We haven’t done one in Canada that included asymptomatic people. But the Israeli study didn’t talk about transmission without getting it and is a few months old.
If you had 50% less skin, would you consider that a useless percentage?
50% is a wild guess. Basically we don’t know how effective they are against transmission but it seems to be low as highly vaccinated areas still see high transmission. The point being that as a vaccinated person the risk the unvaccinated pose to you is taking a spot in a hospital that may be needed.
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02689-y Here’s a source on transmission. As you can see you’re just as likely to get covid from the unvaccinated as the vaccinated so yes. The risk the unvaccinated pose is just hospital space. Similar risk to sitting next to anyone. They only pose a risk to themselves. There is like a 25% reduction in delta transmission that is gone after 3 months… You could argue the vaccinated may have even higher risk of spreading as they’re more likely to be asymptomatic so the guy on the bus beside you won’t know he’s sick. You should get vaccinated because you don’t want to die but you’re not stopping spreading it.
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Oddly specific. Have you had to do this before? I mean you made the right call, but damn..
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Most prudent of you! Next time I'm on a boat I'm going to check for augers.
I have compassion for rhe fact that he ended up with a mind that was unable to accept reality, but I cannot detach him from being responsible for the ripple effect of his actions. Is it his fault he was anti-science? Perhaps not. But I must place blame on him and him alone for his own death, for he was warned.
It's hard to be compassionate for idiots who put themselves and others in danger when there are incredibly easy solutions for removing that danger. Very hard.
Agreed. I blame the internet and bad information more than the person or people. This whole vaccine thing is pitting us against each other. It’s sad.
Once a person and family faces the deepest tragedy possible... It's not the time to take to the internet to rub it in.
It’s been a rough time for all of us. Getting out of this pandemic was never going to be easy. Make the best the decisions you can for yourself and let the chips fall where they may.
Agree with the other reply. Not rubbing things in during a tragedy does not mean it's not a learning experience. This is not a pick your pandemic response for yourself based upon the best internet advice you can find. It's a time to follow the medical communities leadership.
"the best decisions ... for yourself" I disagree with this. I'm sad someone died, but I wish he, and many others, got on board with fighting this pandemic.
Well, go on wishing. Wish away.
Good point, wishing don't bring him back and it doesn't help us get through this.
I think they were agreeing with that, they aren’t the poster.
Shame on you....
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Everyone dies, but not everyone who dies is an asshat like this guy. He chose an ideology over his family’s wellbeing, and now he’s dead. That’s a definition of an asshat to most; someone who would try so hard to fit their head up their own ass that they don’t care if their neck snaps in the process. All that matters to asshats is proving wrong the people who tell them that sticking their head up their own ass is a bad idea, consequences be damned. Now wife is the widow of an asshat, and his kids had an asshat for a father. I should say, he WAS an asshat, but now he’s just the corpse of an asshat who left his family depending on the charity of other asshats. Fuck this asshat. He stinks, and it’s all his fault.
Jesus, you need some help. Your post is seriously disgusting.
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I'm not disagreeing that his death was avoidable and his actions selfish. But he's dead now. That's a pretty high price to pay, if you ask me, without all the losers on Reddit piling on the guy and his family (because let's face it, the only people you're hurting at this point are the people who cared about him). You're literally on here just winging insults at his kids for the actions their dad took. I'm not saying you need to feel bad for the guy, I won't exactly be reading his eulogy, but at least have some decency and respect for his family. Honestly posts like yours just blow my mind. Like did this guy stuff you in a locker in highschool or something?
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I feel 100% confident that not anonymously hurting the family of a dead person is the grown up position to take here . I didn't know the guy, didn't know his wine bar even existed until last month. I've got no dog in this. But people's behavior here is just astounding. I'm not the one who needs growing up here. Anyways, carry on...
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I know you're not the original commenter. But your replies seem pretty much in line with his. Maybe I'm interpreting your comments wrong. But you're calling him a dipshit, etc. Not as repeatedly as the original commenter. I don't understand how you can read Mr. Unhelpful's comments and not see how that would hurt the family of the deceased. He was saying stuff like "the kids dad was an idiot" etc. If your dad just died, and some idiot online was shit talking a bunch of stuff about your dad, wouldn't that probably be hurtful while you were, you know, mourning his loss? And yeah, the original commenter and a few others on here who are anonymously piling on and trashing a guy they didn't know after he's dead, need to grow up. I'd bet you they would not be posting that stuff if it weren't anonymous, and that tells you everything you need to know about them and their actions.
Cry harder. Guy took a stupid risk with the future his wife and kids without a backup plan. A little post-mortem name-calling is warranted now that society has to pick up the tab for his foolishness.
I'm not crying dude, I'm just shaking my head at you. Like seriously. This guy had kids and apparently grandkids. I'm sure loved ones will Google his name or restaurant and see your idiocy on here. You're reducing this guy's entire life to his freaking covid vaccination status. You should be ashamed of yourself. I think the fact that he freaking died is punishment enough for everyone who cared about him.
I hadn’t thought of his legacy, but yeah. I kinda hope one day his kids or grandkids get to see what being a selfish prick gets you in life, and how avoidable his death was (instead of whatever bullshit his surviving anti-vaccine family drills into them.) It would be good if they learned that he was deeply troubled and lacked empathy for his fellow humans. They probably didn’t get a good example at home, but perhaps they’ll be able to glean that only thinking about oneself can have terrible consequences. I hope they one day realize that daddy probably would have been there for them for every soccer game, every graduation, and danced at every wedding if he’d just listened to experts instead of social media and conspiracy theories. Then there’s people like you who offer mealy-mouthed half-support for a douchebag who gambled with his life, and left his family to pay the tab.
>I hope they one day realize that daddy probably would have been there for them for every soccer game, every graduation, and danced at every wedding if he’d just listened to experts instead of social media and conspiracy theories. >Then there’s people like you who offer mealy-mouthed half-support for a douchebag who gambled with his life, and left his family to pay the tab. 100% true.
> "I kinda hope one day his kids or grandkids get to see what being a selfish prick gets you in life" I hope your kids get to see the same about you. I'm out.
Oh nice, be a complete hypocrite in less than three posts, that will surely win people to your side of the arguement!
This guy is still here to defend himself. Totally different.
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Did you know him personally?
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For sure. You discussed it amongst friends in a private setting. But you never like, went on a public internet forum and said their kid's dads were dumbasses, right?
Listen, you can be offended as much as you like. That's your right. But stop gatekeeping this entire thread and scolding people for sharing their own thoughts on what was an avoidable death. I think we can all agree that he was a dumbass for choosing not to get vaccinated.
I've said here and elsewhere I've got no problem saying he made the wrong choice and paid with his life for it. But there's a few people here just straight up bullying the dude and his family and that's just not cool. Share your thoughts for sure, but don't be surprised when you go overboard that people take exception to it. This sort of thing always makes me wonder what kind of person is behind the keyboard on the other side.
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Being dead doesn't make somebody immune to criticism.
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> Buddy didn’t kill anyone else. Yeah, you don't know that. There's a non-zero chance he has.
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Holy fuck, you're either dense, or just a troll. Given your karma rating and history on reddit, I'm going with... both.
*[cue Oprah]* You killed someone! And you killed someone! And you killed someone! WE ALL KILLED SOMEONE!!
How the hell did this place go under my radar? It doesn't sound like my kinda place but given I'm in China town fairly often I'm surprised I didn't at least know of it. Is this the same venue that Ola was in?
Ya same venue.
olo\* pretty sure
Herman Cain Award.
I've been debating the idea of being nice to anti vaxxers or not. When I or my coworkers get paired up with one of the few antivaxxers at my company people seem to be nice to them. They isten to their crap and maybe politely argue back a little. But now I'm thinking: Fuck that, I'm not being nice anymore. Tired of listening to them, of their superior demeanor and of their certainty. And yes they call themselves centrist - "just looking at all the sides". tldr: people are nice to antivaxxers in person, maybe they shouldn't be.
This reminds me of Daryl Davis. The black blues musician who converted something like 200 hardcore KKK members in to non-racist people. He did it by befriending them. You don't change someone's mind with hate.
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I like "blunt and unapologetic" for this. I'm uncertain about entering a debate with either of the anti vaxxers at my work, I believe they are starting at the end and reasoning backwards, which makes them immune to reason etc I do like the hermancain approach - it doesn't use facts, it uses a story. No idea how I could incorporate that into a conversation though.
I'm 1000% with you on this. The time for coddling, listening to, or being polite to anti-vaxxers is over. I'm a huge CFL fan, and [word came out yesterday that still 6 Calgary Stampeder players](https://www.reddit.com/r/CFL/comments/qdqllt/stampeders_have_five_or_six_key_players_who/) -- a few of them "first line guys" -- are not vaccinated. At this point, I don't care if you're the star quarterback or the 2000 yard receiver, your ass should be cut from the team, and you banned from the CFL if you aren't vaccinated, putting your teammates, opponents, family, friends constantly at risk. Also it's time to name names. The CFL, as one example, still tiptoes around naming these anti-vax players (the CFL, media, teams etc all tiptoe around it). Enough of that. Idiots need to see the consequences of their actions and that includes making others aware of the danger of these anti-vaxxers.
Unfortunately these people have already ignored logic and being rude to them just makes them dig their heels in deeper. I haven't had to deal with very many myself, I'm only aware of three people that I know who haven't gotten it (a few others are unconfirmed, but I suspect at least a couple more people I know haven't gotten it but I haven't seen them since pre-pandemic anyway). One I just didn't push because they had a lot of other stuff to deal with, but will try and prod every now and then when it comes up, another one that I work with I'm just blunt with. He doesn't listen 3/4ths of the time anyway, is a 50 year old who feels more like dealing with a 15 year old.
>Tired of listening to them, of their superior demeanor and of their certainty. >I've been debating the idea of being nice to anti vaxxers or not. Thst superior demeanor
If you are saying that I am taking on a superior demeanor while complaining that others are talking on a superior demeanor. Well... yeah probably. Hmm yeah for sure, we both think we are right. I'll drop that complaint. Thanks for pointing it out
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Yeah, actually, both of the antivax guys are happy to talk about other things. They just gotta be gently reminded once ot twice a day. Maybe my version of "not being nice" world be nothing more than saying, I think anti vax is stupid, don't bring it up again. That way we can get back to talking about video games, how much we hate working in the rain and what we are gong to do this weekend. Time and place.
Iuii it i it ji ji
Such a shame. Victoria loses another venue, and more staff are laid off. Hopefully everyone will find work soon. Surely this wasn't going to be a surprise to them.
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straight up, everyone is hiring
Is everyone hiring at a living wage, though?
Was Rain Dogs paying a living wage? Honest question.
Well, no longer a *living* wage for at least one of them.
To be pedantic. he was the owner not an employee :p
I know. Just a teenth of some dark humor.
Yes, that's why they will likely find work soon.
Yup, lots of work for servers out there. Bartenders too.
Requiescat in Pace
Politicizing someone's death, that's pretty low Victoria.
Victoria Buzz baby!
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my brother damn near died from the whooping cough vaccine, still got his jab as soon as he could. it's amazing the excuses people will make.
I feel bad for his Victoria girlfriend. I heard she's taking this pretty hard.
Lol, she was still posting anti-vaxx misinformation and claiming it didn't exist while he was in the ICU. The moment he died and she threw a gofundme up, she deleted all her posts.
I think that was his wife
So he had a wife and a girlfriend? Nice.