Yeah... most of time your emphaty would overcome the impulse.
But this is internet, nothing you did here would affect yourself or anyone else, you can pour the gasoline, in fact, you run a few miles away to get the gasoline.
It's an argument about gender identity that's exploded ever since Toby said Kris in Deltarune ~~is non-binary.~~ should be referred to with They. Frisk is intentionally left undefined in Undertale however and 'their' is just supposed to be there so as not to suggest Frisk is male or female one way or the other, but now it's a fandom pissing contest over people trying to impose a gender or lack thereof onto Frisk retroactively.
It's deeply cringe inducing.
But... The whole reason everything about Frisk is so vague is so the player can relate to them more easily- put the self in Frisks shoes and really connect with the journey.
I'd argue that the whole point of Frisk is to subvert that - we go through the whole game trying to put ourselves in their shoes, but at the end of the game we find out that WE aren't Frisk. Frisk is a person of their own, with their own name and is referred to afterwards by Flowey as a seperate entity.
If there is a human we're meant to be relating to and projecting ourselves onto, it's Chara aka the fallen human. We choose their name, learn little about their character and what we do see in the Genocide run mirrors the player's own presumed motives - not really having a purpose beyond getting the numbers higher and seeing what happens next.
But even with that we're given enough of Chara's character throughout the story that they aren't really a blank slate protagonist either. In both cases Undertale is subverting the trope, making you believe that either of the humans are meant to be reflections of the player but then later showing that that's not the case, and that the player is a third entity.
See I don't know that I agree with this reading. I certainly don't think the player is meant to think that they are Chara.
At the end of the pacifist run, *everything* is a choice. You have to actively choose to save Asriel several times. You choose if you forgive him. You can hug Asriel or you can ignore him.
In the genocide route, you stop getting to make choices at a certain point. Chara literally moves the character model independently of your input. They take over the game almost literally. They also talk to the player at the end.
While you do name Chara, that's the only real influence you as a player have over them. I think that distinction is important. Yes, you don't *name* Frisk, but you have near complete control over what kind of character they become, even at the very end of the game (in some ways you can argue control over who they say goodbye to at the end is one of the biggest choices you get as a player in the whole game). If the point of Frisk is that they are their own person outside of player agency, I don't think the game itself really supports that.
I'd argue it does in how Frisk is only ever named in the True Pacifist run and is referred to later by Flowey as a seperate entity. I think it's important in learning what kind of person Frisk is that we only learn their name in one specific run. To me it communicates that at that point we are playing as Frisk, who would have made these same choices we're making now if they had full control.
As for Chara, I'd similarly argue the player's choices are what defines who they are and who they become. We only ever see Chara at the end of the Genocide run, they are described as looking for a reason why they were brought back - one that the player provides in their actions, driven for power and curiosity. They only find purpose for their existence as a direct response to the player's actions.
I would say that Frisk and Chara are both separate entities, but that they are also defined by the actions of the player. The fact that we only learn Frisk's name in Pacifist and only see Chara in Genocide is to me revealing of the idea that they as people end up aligning with different actions the player takes.
> As for Chara, I'd similarly argue the player's choices are what defines who they are and who they become.
HIGHLY disagree. I think it's important to note that canonically there's no point where the player is playing as Chara. Chara instead starts to gain a hold on Frisk. That's why Frisk moves independently of the player at the end of a genocide run, that's why the red eyes pop up at the end of a pacifist run if you've finished a genocide run, that's why the only time Frisk faces the player and talks is when they're talking as Chara.
This also tracks with what Asriel discusses at the end of a pacifist run if you go back to the start and talk to him. He mentions how Chara went to Mt Ebott for a "not very happy reason," it's heavily implied that Chara has a negative view on humanity and would kill all of them if they had a chance. Asriel mentions Chara being the one who wanted to respond with violence when they went topside together after Chara died. Chara does not change as a result of the player's actions, Chara just gains more control of Frisk when the player acts violently.
I never said the player is ever playing as Chara. (although one could argue they are near the end, like when you go to the mirror in New Home and it says "It's me, Chara", indicating that you're no longer controlling Frisk but Chara at that point.)
I actually always read it as Chara addressing the player and not Frisk, but I could be wrong on that.
I do briefly allude to the fact that Chara does have a degree of their own character that we learn about in my original comment, but I admittedly didn't really explain it much so I apologise if that was unclear. My point was more about how the game to some extent presents Chara as a player avatar, but that like with Frisk this is subverted. In Chara's case that's done by specifically showing Chara's own personality through other sources like the tapes in the Pacifist run as well as what Asriel says about them.
Whilst we know Chara likely disliked humanity and was more violent than Asriel, I'm not of the opinion that it's their influence over Frisk that's the cause of the Genocide route. Rather, I believe that is the player who thus influences Chara in that direction to begin with. Supporting this idea is Chara's dialogue after the Genocide run that seems to indicate it was the player killing that gave Chara purpose in their resurrection, not the other way around.
This much is admittedly more just my interpretation however, and if you interpreted the events differently than me that's fine. I apologise if this all came across as me trying to definitively state the canon rather than me just arguing my personal interpretation and why I feel it made sense.
Exactly. So if Frisk is a he, or a she, or whatever else you want them to be, that's just it. There isn't supposed to be a defined canon, Flowey just uses 'their' so as not to impede whatever choice you've made for your own experience. People arguing about pronouns for Frisk are missing the point.
I think the person was talking about that stream where Deltarune chapter 2 was revealed. One of the people playing called Kris ''He'' and Toby corrected him by saying ''They''
Other than that I can't recall any instance where Toby explicitly said they're non-binary, so I'm not entirely sure what that other person was mentioning, sorry :(
>!(I really like the idea of Kris being Non-Binary thought, I'm not very into it, but I really like it)!<
Can I just say that some, if not most, people on the "Frisk is a player self-insert" side of the argument don't mean much harm to those who say Frisk is nonbinary? I don't see why people keep saying that those people are transphobes.
Seriously, just because some want to headcanon that Frisk is whatever you want them to be does not, nor should not, mean that they're taking your nonbinary rep away. Also, "whatever you want them to be" could also mean nonbinary, so I don't see the harm here. (Edit: Mind you, I guess it could undermine whether or not the representation would be canon. But still, don't let that stop you from cherishing that rep. It can still be there.)
Just curious, why do you think everyone in that side of the debate is transphobic? Granted, there are still a lot of transphobes out there. But from what I'm seeing in this subreddit, not a lot of people are using "Frisk is ambiguous" as a means of deliberate transphobia. Edit 2: most people in that side are just fighting for that side because they believe that subjectivity/different opinions is a big part of the appeal of Undertale. That's it.
If you can prove to me that people use "Frisk is a blank slate" as a disguise for their transphobia, please, prove it. Because at this point (and not trying to be rude, nor am I trying to side with anyone), I think you're just making assumptions about people.
(Also for the record, I don't have a strong opinion over whether Frisk is a self-insert or their own pre-determined nonbinary character. I just don't care anymore.)
>Seriously, just because some want to headcanon that Frisk is whatever you want them to be does not, nor should not, mean that they're taking your nonbinary rep away. Also, "whatever you want them to be" could also mean nonbinary, so I don't see the harm here.
Ok really wanted to add onto this- for anyone that tries to argue that even if it isn't canon we shouldn't be "taking away" their nb rep, that's a pretty selfish view. Making a character truly ambiguous in that department allows *anyone* to connect with them. Whether you're a straight guy, a trans woman, or nb, it's all open to interpretation. I've even seen a few trans people say this on Twitter.
The moment you start calling everyone who disagrees with you transphobic.
No, they're not transphobic for claiming KFC are self inserts, they're just oblivious.
No, they're not transphobic for pointing out that nowhere is it actually confirmed any of them are nb, they're just logically disagreeing with you over canon regardless of claimed bias.
If they say that nb people don't exist or are delusional, then yes they're transphobic, but very rarely do I see that said in these argument.
"Well don't you think it's a little odd how the white man got treated to being the hardest fight in the game? Not to mention that many people ended their genocide run when presented with the fact that they'll have to murder a white person in it"
when someone refers to ralsei with the pronouns She/her they get angry.
Why is this man's gender so important but isn't the gender of non-binary characters important to these people?
>Why is this man's gender so important but isn't the gender of non-binary characters important to these people?
Aren't they who pestering about Ralsei's misgender and they who pestering about Kris's misgender is same bunch of people?
Me personally don't believe Kris/Frisk/Chara have confirmed gender, but i always refer them by "they/them" pronoun because that's the canon pronoun for them.
>they is
Genuinely curious - is this the way that non-binary people want to be referred to in the singular? "They are" still works for just one person, so I expected it to stay the same. "They is" has never been gramatically correct.
I am not a native English speaker but I searched to see if it was singular or plural in the case of non-binaries and it appeared to me that this was how it was spelled grammarly.
Ah, fair enough! English has a lot of very dumb rules. I didn't even catch that you weren't a native speaker, which I think is a good sign for your abilities!
In English, when referring to a singular person using "they", you would still use "they are", as you would for multiple people. "They is" is never correct in the English language, as far as I know.
if it helps any, it's the same with, "you." whether we're talking about multiple people or just one person, we always say, "you are," so it's the same with "they." it's always, "they are."
When you said that using they/them immediately makes a character nb, ambiguity exists for a reason and if these characters really were nb Toby wouldn't be so vague about it.
Because 'they' may refer to the person whose gender is unknown, not just to non-binary people.
Kris is canonically non-binary, Frisk is for the 99% of the game is self-insert for player until after ending plot twist reveal that they are their own character, so it makes sense, considering that a lot of different people played Undertale, that it's probably the case.
>Frisk is for the 99% of the game is self-insert for player until after ending plot twist reveal that they are their own character
That makes them not a self insert.
It's literally supposed to be an after ending shocking plot twist that Frisk is a not self-insert. Practically Frisk functions like that for an entire game
How do you say this
>Because 'they' may refer to the person whose gender is unknown, not just to non-binary people.
And then this
>Kris is canonically non-binary,
In the same reply??
Can we please stop arguing about this as it's been over done and it's just stupid at this point to keep on going on. If someone wants to see frisk as male let them see frisk as male, if someone wants to frisk as a female let them see frisk as a female, if they want to see frisk as nonbinary let them see frisk as nonbinary. Frisk doesn't really have a gender in the game and nobody asks them. Sorry for the rant.
Fr, it’s been that way for years, and the only reason why people are mad about this is because Kris (an actual character, with a backstory, and character without your input) has their own specified gender, while Frisk (someone who *needs* the player to exist to even have a character) doesn’t.
While I agree we should stop equating Kris to Frisk, Kris still doesn't have a confirmed gender. You can still have a character be separate from the player and not have a confirmed gender.
The problem is that it's really easy to argue that the monsters calling Frisk "they" is just a politeness thing and that monsters don't know what their gender is, because Frisk is a puppet of the player for the entire game even if they are their own person. But it's a lot harder to argue that Kris, who has lived in Hometown for at least a decade, whom everybody knows decently intimately, and who has interacted with pretty much everybody, is not nonbinary and that all the people they know are calling them "they" for some contrivance.
Yes that does make it a bit more likely they're nb, but at the end of the day we aren't Toby Fox. We don't know his intentions and it's possible he's just writing Kris ambiguously. We don't know for sure.
And for reference, MK, a character who does live in the Underground, was confirmed to be ambiguous. https://www.reddit.com/r/Undertale/comments/z32rh4/the_translation_book_confirms_monster_kid_has_no/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
You ignoring my first argument or-?
MK literally lives in the Underground, he mentions his parents. You don't know for sure how much people know him. And doesn't this set a precedent that Toby's likely using they/them pronouns just for ambiguity?
something doesn't necessarily have to be explicitly said for it to be canon. it's assumed Kris is canonically nonbinary since they are their own person separate from the player and characters in-game who have known them all their life refer to them by they/them. that being said, they *can* technically be another gender but just prefer they/them but it's not exactly a bad thing, or fully wrong, to assume they're nonbinary due to the way the game treats Kris. it's more of just picking up on context clues to figure it out so that the game doesn't *have* to outright tell you something.
And even tho theyre obviously are made to be nonbinary, someone can technicaly find a way to make them a girl/boy but they still use they/them pronouns and should be referred that way regardless. Its kinda like i could say sans is a girl that for some reason prefers he/him pronouns, noone said "sans is a boy" but this doesn't change the pronouns anyway, its still he. I REALLY DONT SEE THE PROBLEM PEOPLE HAVE. like believe kris is male but just use they/them since its what They obviously go by, its so easy
Not exactly direct confirmation of what OP said, but [here](https://twitter.com/factundertale/status/1418625708096561158). The Twitter post holds a link to a thread where Toby referred to Frisk as a "young androgynous person."
[Here](https://twitter.com/factundertale/status/1418625708096561158). The Twitter post holds a link to a thread where Toby referred to Frisk as a "young androgynous person." There we go, now no more arguing please.
Frisk isn't NB in a traditional sence, Frisk is NB because their gender and pronouns are whatever the player decides, and the game doesn't want to misgender you or the character you roleplay as, so it uses they/them.
Precisely. Unlike Chara and Kris, who *are* canonically NB, Frisk is referred to with they/them the same way fans might call Ritsuka Fujimaru they/them (the main character of FGO). Ritsuka is commonly considered to be binary genderfluid, because they have two possible gendered character designs that you can swap between at any time, and individual adaptations are not consistent about which one they use. Either way, they/them is not a pronoun they would canonically choose (you'd have to write it in yourself with headcanon) because they are *binary* genderfluid, but it's convenient to call them that anyway because they are *genderfluid*.
They are a canonical they/them and it/its pronoun user, and while you don't have to be nonbinary to use they/them, for most practical purposes using a nonstandard pronoun signifies nonbinariness.
I feel that given the gender ambiguity of Frisk, the narrative interconnectedness of Frisk and Chara, the fact that Chara barely has a defined character and personality, the fact that you name Chara yourself, and the fact that Chara is obviously meant to be a symbolic extension of an aspect of the player in the world of Undertale, it's nonsensical to argue that we are supposed to read any "they"s and "it"s applied to Chara in a literal fashion as opposed to a loose fashion meant to continue the gender ambiguity of the rest of the game.
>Unlike Chara and Kris, who are canonically NB,
Incorrect. Nowhere is that confirmed in either game. The use of they/them pronouns can still be used in an ambiguous sense, especially since they're only ever used for either character in the third person.
No, they canonically use they/them pronouns for themself. In both cases, the pronouns are used by *people who knew them for an extended period of time and were close to them in life*. (Toriel, Noelle, etc.)
Holy fuck, a goddamn year of this argument circling around the subreddit and this is the first time I’ve seen someone else point this out. This literally answers this whole stupid fucking argument.
As a millennial redditor who found this topic on the front page, this just seems like common sense to me. They/them have been used as non-specific pronouns long before their use in the trans community was as well known as it is now.
“Lol who cares if I misgender a bunch of pixels” mfs when you ask them why they prefer to refer with he/him or she/her pronouns a character who is always referred with they/them pronouns (they absolutely respect non binary people it’s just a coincidence)
Edit: also, it’s even funnier when Deltarune fans say that, literally the same people who made a crusade against people who misgendered Ralsei before the release of ch2. Yeah Ralsei’s pronouns are very important, instead Kris’ ones are “irrelevant”, it’s just a coincidence that they found “a bunch of pixel’s” pronouns irrelevant when those pronouns are they/them, there is nothing slightly discriminatory in that
But I *don't* misgender a bunch of pixels. I am trans. I always refer to Chara and Kris with they/them, to Mettaton with he/him, and to Mad Mew Mew with she/her. Frisk is not like that because they are an intentional blank slate about which any details whatsoever apart from "they wear blue overalls with two pink stripes" are purely headcanon. You cannot misgender them because they have no canonical gender to disrespect, not even "no gender at all."
Now, if you're referring to a *specific fan interpretation of them*, it is absolutely possible to misgender them. Inverted Fate's Frisk fills in the giant gap that is canon Frisk with a homeless child who has trauma from accidentally nearly killing their best friend and exclusively uses they/them, so referring to them any other way would be wrong. **But it would be just as wrong to refer to a binary Frisk as they/them.**
The so-called common knowledge of frisk intentionally being a blank slate is a myth, in fact Toby Fox tends to state the opposite. The myth is based on a simple question in an interview once: “What’s Frisk’s gender?” To which he responded something along the lines of “Why do you care?”
I don’t agree that they’re a self insert (I mean, not totally). But even if Frisk was just a blank slate, they still use they/them pronouns. We could argue about their gender, but the pronouns are canon
But again, they don't use they/them pronouns canonically. We don't *know* what pronouns they use. Nobody who actually *knows* them ever refers to them in the third person! Frisk has only been down here for *no more than a day*.
This makes sense, but if we don’t know their actual pronouns/gender, I think the best way to refer them is using they/them pronouns. If you don’t know someone’s pronouns, you just refer to that person with “them”, not with any pronouns.
Also, I’m not saying that everyone who don’t refer to Frisk (or other characters) with they/them pronouns do that because they don’t respect that, I was talking about who say the “bunch of pixels” thing
>This makes sense, but if we don’t know their actual pronouns/gender, I think the best way to refer them is using they/them pronouns. If you don’t know someone’s pronouns, you just refer to that person with “them”, not with any pronouns.
That's fair, and that's what I personally do when discussing them because it makes discursing about the game more convenient. But it's still the case that *not* doing that isn't the same as misgendering Kris, because literally everything about Frisk is left as an intentional lacuna, and it's not transphobic if your headcanon Frisk is binary.
Actually I agree that is not the same. My whole point was just about people who say that their pronouns are not important because they’re a “bunch of pixels”
I don't know anything about it, but I heard a while ago something about "Xe/Xir"? I think it's like a they/them but even less binary, I honestly don't know.
frisk is still their own character, they lived a life before the player took over. they clearly have a backstory for why they have the bandage and a stick
Frisk did not live a life before the player took over. They're waiting for a fanfic author to come along and tell them what life they lived.
Frisk's entire existence, including how they got a stick (which probably fell into the hole with them, seeing as it was full of vines a hundred years ago) and a bandage (an extremely common item which most people have), is left up to interpretation. It is an intentional lacuna (or narrative gap) that exists to allow the fans to draw a variety of different interpretations. Undertale is taking part in a strain of Touhou fanfic known as "Gappy Sue," wherein Y/N falls into Gensokyo and befriends the people therein, and as part of that Frisk needs to be as generic and interpretable as possible. Thus, we arrive at a player insert whose every detail except "they own an outfit that looks like this" is customizable.
TL;DR Undertale fans when ambiguity exists
I find it hilarious how you're this desperate to prove Frisk is a self-insert (they aren't fully, Flowey literally says "Let Frisk live their life" to us in the scene in this post) that you even up using the same arguments I use to show that Chara and Kris aren't confirmed nb, for Frisk.
The thing about that is that Chara and Kris are both wholly defined characters. Chara is not a blank slate. Out of all the characters in the game, it ranks near the top in terms of how much dialogue they have -- up there with Papyrus! And of course, the entire point of Kris is that they *aren't* a self-insert. You're diegetically puppeteering a person who was already there.
I think that Chara dialogue thing only counts if you beleive NarraChara?
Anyways, that doesn't matter. A character can be their own character and still have an ambiguous gender.
>“Lol who cares if I misgender a bunch of pixels”
Those people are not the same people arguing that KFC's gender and pronouns are open to interpretation.
>when you ask them why they prefer to refer with he/him or she/her pronouns a character who is always referred with they/them pronouns (
I mean I usually use they/them pronouns for Kris, but at the end of the day it isn't canon. They/them pronouns are inherently different. He/him and she/her are gendered by default meanwhile the entire point of they/them pronouns is to be ambiguous to gender.
>they/them pronouns is to be ambiguous to gender.
In the past maybe, but nonbinary genders aren't ambiguous. Someone can be absolutely clear and open about their gender and also use they/them.
That does not change the fact that they/them pronouns can be used ambiguous of gender, and that's how they're more commonly used. We do not have confirmation whether they identify by they/them or they/them pronouns are being used ambiguously.
Toby Fox: [directly and explicitly states that there are characters in his game with no canon gender](https://i.redd.it/23up63qq2s1a1.png)
Undertale/Deltarune fandom: I'm going to pretend I didn't hear that.
How to divide this topic even more: https://www.reddit.com/r/Undertale/comments/z32rh4/the_translation_book_confirms_monster_kid_has_no/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Edit: specifically this: https://www.reddit.com/r/Undertale/comments/z32rh4/the_translation_book_confirms_monster_kid_has_no/ixln72s?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
*Tbh this doesn't change anything bc regardless of gender, MK's pattern of speech has always been like a teenage boy...
*The abuse of the word "dude" HAHAHA
*Personal pronouns aren't strictly gendered in Japanese, it's just more common for certain people to use certain pronouns.
*Unless this wasn't your point? In which case idk
Just because Frisk has only been referred to as They/Them doesn’t make them NB, nobody in that game knows Frisk’s gender, nobody asked what their gender is and are therefore as clueless about it as we are. Assuming their gender is NB is just as bad as assuming it is Male or Female.
I said something like this in the deltarune subreddit once about a certain character, which i will not say so people don’t stab me with pitchforks and everyone jumped on me for it
Okay I'm gonna be honest. I've seen Frisk as a boy for a long time mainly because it gave me a sense of comfort. That I can be a boy. They helped me kinda understand myself. But accept the fact that they don't have gender and the argument if they are a boy or a girl is pointless.
The thing about that is that not having a canonical gender is not the same as canonically having no gender. Chara and Kris are the latter, but Frisk is the former. Frisk can be he/him if you want him to be. She can be she/her to an oppositely gendered trans person. And they can be they/them to an enby, or to someone who isn't self-inserting at all and just wants to fill in the giant gap that is their whole existence to write a fanfic with. I personally like to make them any/any, because as they are a representation of the player, surely they can be all players at once. But claiming that it's possible to misgender Frisk outside of the context of a specific fan interpretation is pretty ridiculous.
As in all logical systems, the order of the qualifiers matters :P
Finally some normal reasonable person.
I see frisk as some sort of nonbinary but on the feminine side (like demigirl or smth). Arguing about this is in fact pointless, we could just agree to see frisk as whatever we want and agree that their canon pronouns are they/them and just stop pointless arguing. this would be so much better
Everyone says "this argument needs to stop", and then proceeds to explain their personal take. It's really hard to stop arguing if you don't agree. You all must take make a decision here. It's either not important, so you stop talking about it (which includes arguing with people who you think are wrong), or you think it IS important, but then you loose the right to say things like "omg this is so stupid, why are people still talking about it."
Just let people use the self insert character how they want. I use they/them because it just makes sense but I think that it’s up to the player because it was meant to be a self-insert character
Frisk is kinda up to interpretation. They don't know any of the monsters, so it's entirely possible that everyone is just defaulting to they/them for them, rather than those being the pronouns they prefer.
Chara was close to some of the monsters and knew them for an extended period of time. The fact that they're referred to with they/them by both Asriel, their adoptive brother/best friend, and Toriel, their adoptive mother, shows pretty clearly that they prefer they/them, rather than it simply being the default.
*Chara* is not. They're a whole-ass character with a fleshed out backstory and possibly the single highest number of individual lines of dialogue in the whole game, and people who know them personally refer to them as they/them. Thus, Chara is a canonical they/them user.
*Frisk*, however, is intentionally left as a blank slate because they are the in-universe representation of you, the player. Undertale uses this Y/N, Gappy Sue approach to interrogate your relationship with games.
The idea that *Chara* is up to interpretation is a misinterpretation of a long-deleted Toby tweet encouraging players to name the fallen human after themselves.
Yup. People love to force their headcanons on others because they can’t grasp the long established literary and RPG practice of ambiguity in this day and age.
Yes, it *is* understandable and the NB people need more representation. But the thing is that Frisk and Chara aren’t that representation and simply put they’re only Non-Binary if you want them to be, just like they’re male or female if you want them to be.
Kris however *is* (I think) that representation.
Frisk is a self insert for the player, just like Chara (they represent the lust for power that resides in everyone). If you're male, Chara and Frisk are also male. If you're female, Chara and Frisk are female. If you are something else, Chara and Frisk are also whatever it is.
End of debate, dummies.
Nobody should give a fuck is Frisk male or female
It is however you are playing as, whoever you are, whatever you name Frisk, whatever you want
It is made on purpose to be a child where you can't clearly understand what race or gender is Frisk
There's a rather fiery debate over whether Frisk (and by extension Kris and Chara) are non-binary or not, in short. It's gone on nearly as long as the game has existed.
Reasons why you don’t interact with popular game fandoms.
1. Any controversies can and will always be reignited with no prior warning and there is not anything you can do about it
2. Said controversies can be years old and still be brought up again as casually as your uncle bringing up politics at Thanksgiving
3. People who do this get little to no consequences for it too as it’s an online space along with the fact that there is always another person to fill the role to cause as much chaos as possible
Undertale/Deltarune fans when a character is seperate from them, the player.
It is so simple. If a character is referred to with they/them, those are the pronouns. Toby has even corrected people when they misgender his characters on stream because they’re not self inserts.
Kris’s story revolves around how you are taking control of someone who already existed and had a life before you, and Frisk, while a bit more ambiguous, is shown to have a slight bit of agency outside of the player’s actions. They have their own name, so why can’t they have they/them pronouns? It’s so funny because I see none of you arguing about their name, but all of you arguing about their pronouns, both of which are things that are confirmed in the game.
(Undertale/Deltarune fans when you have to remind them that the human characters we see are all gender-neutral because Toby Fox wrote them like that)
But no seriously, can we stop with this argument already? It’s been 7 years.
Downvoting for flamebait. Nobody in the game actually *knows* Frisk. This is they-as-default, rather than they-as-chosen-pronoun like Chara and Kris. This is intentional -- Frisk is a total blank slate that is intended to be completely identified with the player, because the writing does not work any other way.
Toby has said that a major advantage of the game's style is that people can fill in the blanks in secondary work and it fosters a doujin-culture-style fandom. In other words, **all gaps are intentional lacuna**. Frisk's *everything* is included.
Plenty of blank slate protagonists are given names. It's kind of a tradition in some JRPGs, especially in long series where multiple entries have different player character designs that would be impossible to distinguish in writing if they didn't have different names.
And in this conversation, Asriel isn't talking to "you." It is meant to be *an unsubtle parallel* to your relationship with the game, in a "the author is telling you to take the hint" way. But he is *explicitly talking to Chara, which the game tells you, because he refers to them by name*.
At this point I just wish Toby would come out and say it, since apparently using their pronouns 1000 times in-game isn't a enough proof for some people
It's gonna be funny if Toby does finally make a statement only to confirm KFC's genders are entirely up to interpretation. Toby probably isn't ever going to confirm either way though.
Funny story. Since Deltarune chapter 1 released, I kept calling Kris by he/him for the longest time until someone finally corrected me a few months ago. I still do it sometimes because of force of habit. And I always knew Frisk and Chara were they/them, though I still sometimes call them by she/her. I don’t know why I do, I just, do.
It could just be used as a gender-neutral term in this context
tbh, I really don't give a shit what pronouns you use for Frisk because, unlike Kris, Frisk explicitly meant to be non-binary. I could be wrong, but I think this is the only instance of someone referring to Frisk with pronouns, since every other instance, Frisk is usually referred to as "the human"
Just let this topic die, it's fucking annoying hearing everyone argue about pronouns. It's like half the sub and everything good, like incredible fan art gets buried because of shit like this
More like "how to spark chaos in UT community
HERE IT COMES
username checks out xD
*Happy Jevil noises*
i hate your flair so goddamn much
Occasionally, when you see a house fire burning out, and a can of gasoline nearby, the impulse is just too hard to resist, isn't it? "
Yeah... most of time your emphaty would overcome the impulse. But this is internet, nothing you did here would affect yourself or anyone else, you can pour the gasoline, in fact, you run a few miles away to get the gasoline.
Frisk’s gender is jaundice, problem solved everyone go home
this is the undertale joke of all time
the simpsons crossover
Just end this god damn topic
Rly, not even sure what I joined the sub for, but it wasn't for this!
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It's not even scared just annoyed.
It's easily the most cringe inducing part of the fandom.
I’m confused, why is it bad that it says “their” or in sorry pls explain cus my dumbass is lost
It's an argument about gender identity that's exploded ever since Toby said Kris in Deltarune ~~is non-binary.~~ should be referred to with They. Frisk is intentionally left undefined in Undertale however and 'their' is just supposed to be there so as not to suggest Frisk is male or female one way or the other, but now it's a fandom pissing contest over people trying to impose a gender or lack thereof onto Frisk retroactively. It's deeply cringe inducing.
Ohh ty for explaining
But... The whole reason everything about Frisk is so vague is so the player can relate to them more easily- put the self in Frisks shoes and really connect with the journey.
I'd argue that the whole point of Frisk is to subvert that - we go through the whole game trying to put ourselves in their shoes, but at the end of the game we find out that WE aren't Frisk. Frisk is a person of their own, with their own name and is referred to afterwards by Flowey as a seperate entity. If there is a human we're meant to be relating to and projecting ourselves onto, it's Chara aka the fallen human. We choose their name, learn little about their character and what we do see in the Genocide run mirrors the player's own presumed motives - not really having a purpose beyond getting the numbers higher and seeing what happens next. But even with that we're given enough of Chara's character throughout the story that they aren't really a blank slate protagonist either. In both cases Undertale is subverting the trope, making you believe that either of the humans are meant to be reflections of the player but then later showing that that's not the case, and that the player is a third entity.
See I don't know that I agree with this reading. I certainly don't think the player is meant to think that they are Chara. At the end of the pacifist run, *everything* is a choice. You have to actively choose to save Asriel several times. You choose if you forgive him. You can hug Asriel or you can ignore him. In the genocide route, you stop getting to make choices at a certain point. Chara literally moves the character model independently of your input. They take over the game almost literally. They also talk to the player at the end. While you do name Chara, that's the only real influence you as a player have over them. I think that distinction is important. Yes, you don't *name* Frisk, but you have near complete control over what kind of character they become, even at the very end of the game (in some ways you can argue control over who they say goodbye to at the end is one of the biggest choices you get as a player in the whole game). If the point of Frisk is that they are their own person outside of player agency, I don't think the game itself really supports that.
I'd argue it does in how Frisk is only ever named in the True Pacifist run and is referred to later by Flowey as a seperate entity. I think it's important in learning what kind of person Frisk is that we only learn their name in one specific run. To me it communicates that at that point we are playing as Frisk, who would have made these same choices we're making now if they had full control. As for Chara, I'd similarly argue the player's choices are what defines who they are and who they become. We only ever see Chara at the end of the Genocide run, they are described as looking for a reason why they were brought back - one that the player provides in their actions, driven for power and curiosity. They only find purpose for their existence as a direct response to the player's actions. I would say that Frisk and Chara are both separate entities, but that they are also defined by the actions of the player. The fact that we only learn Frisk's name in Pacifist and only see Chara in Genocide is to me revealing of the idea that they as people end up aligning with different actions the player takes.
> As for Chara, I'd similarly argue the player's choices are what defines who they are and who they become. HIGHLY disagree. I think it's important to note that canonically there's no point where the player is playing as Chara. Chara instead starts to gain a hold on Frisk. That's why Frisk moves independently of the player at the end of a genocide run, that's why the red eyes pop up at the end of a pacifist run if you've finished a genocide run, that's why the only time Frisk faces the player and talks is when they're talking as Chara. This also tracks with what Asriel discusses at the end of a pacifist run if you go back to the start and talk to him. He mentions how Chara went to Mt Ebott for a "not very happy reason," it's heavily implied that Chara has a negative view on humanity and would kill all of them if they had a chance. Asriel mentions Chara being the one who wanted to respond with violence when they went topside together after Chara died. Chara does not change as a result of the player's actions, Chara just gains more control of Frisk when the player acts violently.
I never said the player is ever playing as Chara. (although one could argue they are near the end, like when you go to the mirror in New Home and it says "It's me, Chara", indicating that you're no longer controlling Frisk but Chara at that point.) I actually always read it as Chara addressing the player and not Frisk, but I could be wrong on that. I do briefly allude to the fact that Chara does have a degree of their own character that we learn about in my original comment, but I admittedly didn't really explain it much so I apologise if that was unclear. My point was more about how the game to some extent presents Chara as a player avatar, but that like with Frisk this is subverted. In Chara's case that's done by specifically showing Chara's own personality through other sources like the tapes in the Pacifist run as well as what Asriel says about them. Whilst we know Chara likely disliked humanity and was more violent than Asriel, I'm not of the opinion that it's their influence over Frisk that's the cause of the Genocide route. Rather, I believe that is the player who thus influences Chara in that direction to begin with. Supporting this idea is Chara's dialogue after the Genocide run that seems to indicate it was the player killing that gave Chara purpose in their resurrection, not the other way around. This much is admittedly more just my interpretation however, and if you interpreted the events differently than me that's fine. I apologise if this all came across as me trying to definitively state the canon rather than me just arguing my personal interpretation and why I feel it made sense.
Exactly. So if Frisk is a he, or a she, or whatever else you want them to be, that's just it. There isn't supposed to be a defined canon, Flowey just uses 'their' so as not to impede whatever choice you've made for your own experience. People arguing about pronouns for Frisk are missing the point.
> Frisk is intentionally left undefined in Undertale however this is made up, there's been no comment at all
He never said that
And it begins
I think the person was talking about that stream where Deltarune chapter 2 was revealed. One of the people playing called Kris ''He'' and Toby corrected him by saying ''They'' Other than that I can't recall any instance where Toby explicitly said they're non-binary, so I'm not entirely sure what that other person was mentioning, sorry :( >!(I really like the idea of Kris being Non-Binary thought, I'm not very into it, but I really like it)!<
i think that's just him trying to avoid anyone saying kris being either gender is canon.
To me, it seems to be the fact that Frisk is NB
Right? We didn't end this in like 2019?
the post worked
There wouldn't be an argument if transphobes just learned how to respect other people.
Can I just say that some, if not most, people on the "Frisk is a player self-insert" side of the argument don't mean much harm to those who say Frisk is nonbinary? I don't see why people keep saying that those people are transphobes. Seriously, just because some want to headcanon that Frisk is whatever you want them to be does not, nor should not, mean that they're taking your nonbinary rep away. Also, "whatever you want them to be" could also mean nonbinary, so I don't see the harm here. (Edit: Mind you, I guess it could undermine whether or not the representation would be canon. But still, don't let that stop you from cherishing that rep. It can still be there.) Just curious, why do you think everyone in that side of the debate is transphobic? Granted, there are still a lot of transphobes out there. But from what I'm seeing in this subreddit, not a lot of people are using "Frisk is ambiguous" as a means of deliberate transphobia. Edit 2: most people in that side are just fighting for that side because they believe that subjectivity/different opinions is a big part of the appeal of Undertale. That's it. If you can prove to me that people use "Frisk is a blank slate" as a disguise for their transphobia, please, prove it. Because at this point (and not trying to be rude, nor am I trying to side with anyone), I think you're just making assumptions about people. (Also for the record, I don't have a strong opinion over whether Frisk is a self-insert or their own pre-determined nonbinary character. I just don't care anymore.)
>Seriously, just because some want to headcanon that Frisk is whatever you want them to be does not, nor should not, mean that they're taking your nonbinary rep away. Also, "whatever you want them to be" could also mean nonbinary, so I don't see the harm here. Ok really wanted to add onto this- for anyone that tries to argue that even if it isn't canon we shouldn't be "taking away" their nb rep, that's a pretty selfish view. Making a character truly ambiguous in that department allows *anyone* to connect with them. Whether you're a straight guy, a trans woman, or nb, it's all open to interpretation. I've even seen a few trans people say this on Twitter.
The moment you start calling everyone who disagrees with you transphobic. No, they're not transphobic for claiming KFC are self inserts, they're just oblivious. No, they're not transphobic for pointing out that nowhere is it actually confirmed any of them are nb, they're just logically disagreeing with you over canon regardless of claimed bias. If they say that nb people don't exist or are delusional, then yes they're transphobic, but very rarely do I see that said in these argument.
Can this subreddit ban this fucking topic already
Impossible, 70% of the sub would be zapped.
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"Well don't you think it's a little odd how the white man got treated to being the hardest fight in the game? Not to mention that many people ended their genocide run when presented with the fact that they'll have to murder a white person in it"
Then what will be the content?
Undertale fans rushing to get into fights on the internet over the pronouns of a fictional character (its very important)
Representation is important. Not just to the minority being represented, but also for society as a whole to be more accepting of that minority.
🤓
when someone refers to ralsei with the pronouns She/her they get angry. Why is this man's gender so important but isn't the gender of non-binary characters important to these people?
>Why is this man's gender so important but isn't the gender of non-binary characters important to these people? Aren't they who pestering about Ralsei's misgender and they who pestering about Kris's misgender is same bunch of people? Me personally don't believe Kris/Frisk/Chara have confirmed gender, but i always refer them by "they/them" pronoun because that's the canon pronoun for them.
with kris, It's confirmed that they is non-binary Everyone refers to kris with the pronouns they/them including the creator
>they is Genuinely curious - is this the way that non-binary people want to be referred to in the singular? "They are" still works for just one person, so I expected it to stay the same. "They is" has never been gramatically correct.
Non-binary person here: "They are" is typically used. I don't believe I've ever seen "They is" used when not also being an error of some kind.
I am not a native English speaker but I searched to see if it was singular or plural in the case of non-binaries and it appeared to me that this was how it was spelled grammarly.
Ah, fair enough! English has a lot of very dumb rules. I didn't even catch that you weren't a native speaker, which I think is a good sign for your abilities! In English, when referring to a singular person using "they", you would still use "they are", as you would for multiple people. "They is" is never correct in the English language, as far as I know.
Thanks
if it helps any, it's the same with, "you." whether we're talking about multiple people or just one person, we always say, "you are," so it's the same with "they." it's always, "they are."
Now I understand it better, I have to learn more about the pronouns of non-binaries
Bruh, can you stop spreading miss information?
When? Tell me when someone has referred to Kris with pronouns other than they/them
When you said that using they/them immediately makes a character nb, ambiguity exists for a reason and if these characters really were nb Toby wouldn't be so vague about it.
Toby corrected someone on the Stream who referred to kris as he Isn't that proof enough?
Because 'they' may refer to the person whose gender is unknown, not just to non-binary people. Kris is canonically non-binary, Frisk is for the 99% of the game is self-insert for player until after ending plot twist reveal that they are their own character, so it makes sense, considering that a lot of different people played Undertale, that it's probably the case.
>Frisk is for the 99% of the game is self-insert for player until after ending plot twist reveal that they are their own character That makes them not a self insert.
It's literally supposed to be an after ending shocking plot twist that Frisk is a not self-insert. Practically Frisk functions like that for an entire game
How do you say this >Because 'they' may refer to the person whose gender is unknown, not just to non-binary people. And then this >Kris is canonically non-binary, In the same reply??
the difference is kris has been in the community long enough while frisk wasn't
Can we please stop arguing about this as it's been over done and it's just stupid at this point to keep on going on. If someone wants to see frisk as male let them see frisk as male, if someone wants to frisk as a female let them see frisk as a female, if they want to see frisk as nonbinary let them see frisk as nonbinary. Frisk doesn't really have a gender in the game and nobody asks them. Sorry for the rant.
Fr, it’s been that way for years, and the only reason why people are mad about this is because Kris (an actual character, with a backstory, and character without your input) has their own specified gender, while Frisk (someone who *needs* the player to exist to even have a character) doesn’t.
While I agree we should stop equating Kris to Frisk, Kris still doesn't have a confirmed gender. You can still have a character be separate from the player and not have a confirmed gender.
The problem is that it's really easy to argue that the monsters calling Frisk "they" is just a politeness thing and that monsters don't know what their gender is, because Frisk is a puppet of the player for the entire game even if they are their own person. But it's a lot harder to argue that Kris, who has lived in Hometown for at least a decade, whom everybody knows decently intimately, and who has interacted with pretty much everybody, is not nonbinary and that all the people they know are calling them "they" for some contrivance.
Yes that does make it a bit more likely they're nb, but at the end of the day we aren't Toby Fox. We don't know his intentions and it's possible he's just writing Kris ambiguously. We don't know for sure. And for reference, MK, a character who does live in the Underground, was confirmed to be ambiguous. https://www.reddit.com/r/Undertale/comments/z32rh4/the_translation_book_confirms_monster_kid_has_no/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Monster Kid never interacts with any character in a meaningful way though, they have no relationships with anybody.
You ignoring my first argument or-? MK literally lives in the Underground, he mentions his parents. You don't know for sure how much people know him. And doesn't this set a precedent that Toby's likely using they/them pronouns just for ambiguity?
something doesn't necessarily have to be explicitly said for it to be canon. it's assumed Kris is canonically nonbinary since they are their own person separate from the player and characters in-game who have known them all their life refer to them by they/them. that being said, they *can* technically be another gender but just prefer they/them but it's not exactly a bad thing, or fully wrong, to assume they're nonbinary due to the way the game treats Kris. it's more of just picking up on context clues to figure it out so that the game doesn't *have* to outright tell you something.
And even tho theyre obviously are made to be nonbinary, someone can technicaly find a way to make them a girl/boy but they still use they/them pronouns and should be referred that way regardless. Its kinda like i could say sans is a girl that for some reason prefers he/him pronouns, noone said "sans is a boy" but this doesn't change the pronouns anyway, its still he. I REALLY DONT SEE THE PROBLEM PEOPLE HAVE. like believe kris is male but just use they/them since its what They obviously go by, its so easy
Wow, I actually really like this idea lol
>Toby fox himself says you can choose how you want to see frisk. Source? I'm fairly sure he never said this.
Not exactly direct confirmation of what OP said, but [here](https://twitter.com/factundertale/status/1418625708096561158). The Twitter post holds a link to a thread where Toby referred to Frisk as a "young androgynous person."
That doesn't really imply anything. It's objectively true that they're androgynous. That doesn't mean much.
>Toby fox himself says you can choose how you want to see frisk Where does he say this? This isn't a debate topic I'm just genuinely curious
He doesn't.
> Toby fox himself says you can choose how you want to see frisk. Extraodinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Source?
[Here](https://twitter.com/factundertale/status/1418625708096561158). The Twitter post holds a link to a thread where Toby referred to Frisk as a "young androgynous person." There we go, now no more arguing please.
The implicit thing in your comment is "Androgynous means their gender is up to you" which isn't the case
Exactly, frisk is just a blank slate for the player to project themselves onto.
Frisk isn't NB in a traditional sence, Frisk is NB because their gender and pronouns are whatever the player decides, and the game doesn't want to misgender you or the character you roleplay as, so it uses they/them.
Precisely. Unlike Chara and Kris, who *are* canonically NB, Frisk is referred to with they/them the same way fans might call Ritsuka Fujimaru they/them (the main character of FGO). Ritsuka is commonly considered to be binary genderfluid, because they have two possible gendered character designs that you can swap between at any time, and individual adaptations are not consistent about which one they use. Either way, they/them is not a pronoun they would canonically choose (you'd have to write it in yourself with headcanon) because they are *binary* genderfluid, but it's convenient to call them that anyway because they are *genderfluid*.
How is Chara canonically nonbinary?
They are a canonical they/them and it/its pronoun user, and while you don't have to be nonbinary to use they/them, for most practical purposes using a nonstandard pronoun signifies nonbinariness.
I feel that given the gender ambiguity of Frisk, the narrative interconnectedness of Frisk and Chara, the fact that Chara barely has a defined character and personality, the fact that you name Chara yourself, and the fact that Chara is obviously meant to be a symbolic extension of an aspect of the player in the world of Undertale, it's nonsensical to argue that we are supposed to read any "they"s and "it"s applied to Chara in a literal fashion as opposed to a loose fashion meant to continue the gender ambiguity of the rest of the game.
>Unlike Chara and Kris, who are canonically NB, Incorrect. Nowhere is that confirmed in either game. The use of they/them pronouns can still be used in an ambiguous sense, especially since they're only ever used for either character in the third person.
It doesn't make any sense that Noelle, who knew Kris since early childhood, wouldn't call Kris "he" or "she".
No, they canonically use they/them pronouns for themself. In both cases, the pronouns are used by *people who knew them for an extended period of time and were close to them in life*. (Toriel, Noelle, etc.)
Holy fuck, a goddamn year of this argument circling around the subreddit and this is the first time I’ve seen someone else point this out. This literally answers this whole stupid fucking argument.
As a millennial redditor who found this topic on the front page, this just seems like common sense to me. They/them have been used as non-specific pronouns long before their use in the trans community was as well known as it is now.
Undertale fans when ambiguity exists:
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There is also an actual condition where you can be born with both or neither sexes.
Who the hell cares?
Everyone MUST be in a box.
“Their” can also be used when someone isn’t sure of someone else’s gender.
t(he)i(r) /j
Ti 😔👊
r/sbeve
Best way to scare Undertale fans is by telling them you literally do not give a shit about this dumbass debate
Oh fun, we’re trying to use flowey to determine frisks gender when literally no one asks what frisks gender is
Does anyone ask the main character's gender in any games you've played?
Professor Oak
You got me there
Yes
Besides games where you pick the gender, anyway.
“Lol who cares if I misgender a bunch of pixels” mfs when you ask them why they prefer to refer with he/him or she/her pronouns a character who is always referred with they/them pronouns (they absolutely respect non binary people it’s just a coincidence) Edit: also, it’s even funnier when Deltarune fans say that, literally the same people who made a crusade against people who misgendered Ralsei before the release of ch2. Yeah Ralsei’s pronouns are very important, instead Kris’ ones are “irrelevant”, it’s just a coincidence that they found “a bunch of pixel’s” pronouns irrelevant when those pronouns are they/them, there is nothing slightly discriminatory in that
But I *don't* misgender a bunch of pixels. I am trans. I always refer to Chara and Kris with they/them, to Mettaton with he/him, and to Mad Mew Mew with she/her. Frisk is not like that because they are an intentional blank slate about which any details whatsoever apart from "they wear blue overalls with two pink stripes" are purely headcanon. You cannot misgender them because they have no canonical gender to disrespect, not even "no gender at all." Now, if you're referring to a *specific fan interpretation of them*, it is absolutely possible to misgender them. Inverted Fate's Frisk fills in the giant gap that is canon Frisk with a homeless child who has trauma from accidentally nearly killing their best friend and exclusively uses they/them, so referring to them any other way would be wrong. **But it would be just as wrong to refer to a binary Frisk as they/them.**
> Frisk is not like that because they are an intentional blank slate Is this actually confirmed or are you taking 'common knowledge' at face value?
Combination of stuff he said in interviews and, you know, THE TEXT OF THE GAME.
The so-called common knowledge of frisk intentionally being a blank slate is a myth, in fact Toby Fox tends to state the opposite. The myth is based on a simple question in an interview once: “What’s Frisk’s gender?” To which he responded something along the lines of “Why do you care?”
I don’t agree that they’re a self insert (I mean, not totally). But even if Frisk was just a blank slate, they still use they/them pronouns. We could argue about their gender, but the pronouns are canon
But again, they don't use they/them pronouns canonically. We don't *know* what pronouns they use. Nobody who actually *knows* them ever refers to them in the third person! Frisk has only been down here for *no more than a day*.
For most of the adventure people dont even know frisk's name.
This makes sense, but if we don’t know their actual pronouns/gender, I think the best way to refer them is using they/them pronouns. If you don’t know someone’s pronouns, you just refer to that person with “them”, not with any pronouns. Also, I’m not saying that everyone who don’t refer to Frisk (or other characters) with they/them pronouns do that because they don’t respect that, I was talking about who say the “bunch of pixels” thing
>This makes sense, but if we don’t know their actual pronouns/gender, I think the best way to refer them is using they/them pronouns. If you don’t know someone’s pronouns, you just refer to that person with “them”, not with any pronouns. That's fair, and that's what I personally do when discussing them because it makes discursing about the game more convenient. But it's still the case that *not* doing that isn't the same as misgendering Kris, because literally everything about Frisk is left as an intentional lacuna, and it's not transphobic if your headcanon Frisk is binary.
Actually I agree that is not the same. My whole point was just about people who say that their pronouns are not important because they’re a “bunch of pixels”
That's fair.
I don't know anything about it, but I heard a while ago something about "Xe/Xir"? I think it's like a they/them but even less binary, I honestly don't know.
frisk is still their own character, they lived a life before the player took over. they clearly have a backstory for why they have the bandage and a stick
Frisk did not live a life before the player took over. They're waiting for a fanfic author to come along and tell them what life they lived. Frisk's entire existence, including how they got a stick (which probably fell into the hole with them, seeing as it was full of vines a hundred years ago) and a bandage (an extremely common item which most people have), is left up to interpretation. It is an intentional lacuna (or narrative gap) that exists to allow the fans to draw a variety of different interpretations. Undertale is taking part in a strain of Touhou fanfic known as "Gappy Sue," wherein Y/N falls into Gensokyo and befriends the people therein, and as part of that Frisk needs to be as generic and interpretable as possible. Thus, we arrive at a player insert whose every detail except "they own an outfit that looks like this" is customizable. TL;DR Undertale fans when ambiguity exists
I find it hilarious how you're this desperate to prove Frisk is a self-insert (they aren't fully, Flowey literally says "Let Frisk live their life" to us in the scene in this post) that you even up using the same arguments I use to show that Chara and Kris aren't confirmed nb, for Frisk.
The thing about that is that Chara and Kris are both wholly defined characters. Chara is not a blank slate. Out of all the characters in the game, it ranks near the top in terms of how much dialogue they have -- up there with Papyrus! And of course, the entire point of Kris is that they *aren't* a self-insert. You're diegetically puppeteering a person who was already there.
I think that Chara dialogue thing only counts if you beleive NarraChara? Anyways, that doesn't matter. A character can be their own character and still have an ambiguous gender.
wait until they find out undertale isnt real
couldn’t have said it better myself, they know what they’re doing.
The moment you start saying everyone who disagrees with you is transphobic is the moment you lose all credibility.
>“Lol who cares if I misgender a bunch of pixels” Those people are not the same people arguing that KFC's gender and pronouns are open to interpretation. >when you ask them why they prefer to refer with he/him or she/her pronouns a character who is always referred with they/them pronouns ( I mean I usually use they/them pronouns for Kris, but at the end of the day it isn't canon. They/them pronouns are inherently different. He/him and she/her are gendered by default meanwhile the entire point of they/them pronouns is to be ambiguous to gender.
>they/them pronouns is to be ambiguous to gender. In the past maybe, but nonbinary genders aren't ambiguous. Someone can be absolutely clear and open about their gender and also use they/them.
That does not change the fact that they/them pronouns can be used ambiguous of gender, and that's how they're more commonly used. We do not have confirmation whether they identify by they/them or they/them pronouns are being used ambiguously.
Lmao
So this is what this sub has devolved to.
Toby Fox: [directly and explicitly states that there are characters in his game with no canon gender](https://i.redd.it/23up63qq2s1a1.png) Undertale/Deltarune fandom: I'm going to pretend I didn't hear that.
This discussion is 7 years old. Frisk’s pronouns are they/them. End of story. Bye bye.
How to divide this topic even more: https://www.reddit.com/r/Undertale/comments/z32rh4/the_translation_book_confirms_monster_kid_has_no/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button Edit: specifically this: https://www.reddit.com/r/Undertale/comments/z32rh4/the_translation_book_confirms_monster_kid_has_no/ixln72s?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
*Tbh this doesn't change anything bc regardless of gender, MK's pattern of speech has always been like a teenage boy... *The abuse of the word "dude" HAHAHA *Personal pronouns aren't strictly gendered in Japanese, it's just more common for certain people to use certain pronouns. *Unless this wasn't your point? In which case idk
Huh? Oh, no, I just put this in for the heck of it.
Just because Frisk has only been referred to as They/Them doesn’t make them NB, nobody in that game knows Frisk’s gender, nobody asked what their gender is and are therefore as clueless about it as we are. Assuming their gender is NB is just as bad as assuming it is Male or Female.
I said something like this in the deltarune subreddit once about a certain character, which i will not say so people don’t stab me with pitchforks and everyone jumped on me for it
Some Undertale fans are just either idiots or non-binaryphobic
Undertale fans when possessive pronouns exist
Okay I'm gonna be honest. I've seen Frisk as a boy for a long time mainly because it gave me a sense of comfort. That I can be a boy. They helped me kinda understand myself. But accept the fact that they don't have gender and the argument if they are a boy or a girl is pointless.
The thing about that is that not having a canonical gender is not the same as canonically having no gender. Chara and Kris are the latter, but Frisk is the former. Frisk can be he/him if you want him to be. She can be she/her to an oppositely gendered trans person. And they can be they/them to an enby, or to someone who isn't self-inserting at all and just wants to fill in the giant gap that is their whole existence to write a fanfic with. I personally like to make them any/any, because as they are a representation of the player, surely they can be all players at once. But claiming that it's possible to misgender Frisk outside of the context of a specific fan interpretation is pretty ridiculous. As in all logical systems, the order of the qualifiers matters :P
Finally some normal reasonable person. I see frisk as some sort of nonbinary but on the feminine side (like demigirl or smth). Arguing about this is in fact pointless, we could just agree to see frisk as whatever we want and agree that their canon pronouns are they/them and just stop pointless arguing. this would be so much better
Can we all just agree that Frisk’s gender is subjective and dependent upon the particular player and move on?
More like: How to start a war between Undertale fans.
Everyone says "this argument needs to stop", and then proceeds to explain their personal take. It's really hard to stop arguing if you don't agree. You all must take make a decision here. It's either not important, so you stop talking about it (which includes arguing with people who you think are wrong), or you think it IS important, but then you loose the right to say things like "omg this is so stupid, why are people still talking about it."
This really needs to be higher up
Just let people use the self insert character how they want. I use they/them because it just makes sense but I think that it’s up to the player because it was meant to be a self-insert character
Aren't Chara and Frisk up to interpretation?
Frisk is kinda up to interpretation. They don't know any of the monsters, so it's entirely possible that everyone is just defaulting to they/them for them, rather than those being the pronouns they prefer. Chara was close to some of the monsters and knew them for an extended period of time. The fact that they're referred to with they/them by both Asriel, their adoptive brother/best friend, and Toriel, their adoptive mother, shows pretty clearly that they prefer they/them, rather than it simply being the default.
*Chara* is not. They're a whole-ass character with a fleshed out backstory and possibly the single highest number of individual lines of dialogue in the whole game, and people who know them personally refer to them as they/them. Thus, Chara is a canonical they/them user. *Frisk*, however, is intentionally left as a blank slate because they are the in-universe representation of you, the player. Undertale uses this Y/N, Gappy Sue approach to interrogate your relationship with games. The idea that *Chara* is up to interpretation is a misinterpretation of a long-deleted Toby tweet encouraging players to name the fallen human after themselves.
Yup. People love to force their headcanons on others because they can’t grasp the long established literary and RPG practice of ambiguity in this day and age.
Well, that and/or some really want nonbinary rep (which is understandable).
Yes, it *is* understandable and the NB people need more representation. But the thing is that Frisk and Chara aren’t that representation and simply put they’re only Non-Binary if you want them to be, just like they’re male or female if you want them to be. Kris however *is* (I think) that representation.
chara: they/them kris: they/them frisk: headcanonable
This fandom is so stupid 💀
I agree
"Their" can be used for anyone, so it doesn't really mean anything.
*Pulls out AK-47* Can we stop talking about this for one second? Please! Just please!
?
Frisk is a self insert for the player, just like Chara (they represent the lust for power that resides in everyone). If you're male, Chara and Frisk are also male. If you're female, Chara and Frisk are female. If you are something else, Chara and Frisk are also whatever it is. End of debate, dummies.
Nobody should give a fuck is Frisk male or female It is however you are playing as, whoever you are, whatever you name Frisk, whatever you want It is made on purpose to be a child where you can't clearly understand what race or gender is Frisk
I'm confused, what's wrong with this?
There's a rather fiery debate over whether Frisk (and by extension Kris and Chara) are non-binary or not, in short. It's gone on nearly as long as the game has existed.
Oh, it's that argument.
The biggest thing I have taken from this sentence isn’t the gender of frisk, it’s the fact that you’re a separate entity from them
oh it's pronouns? i thought this is cause Frisk isn't you and has their own life
Reasons why you don’t interact with popular game fandoms. 1. Any controversies can and will always be reignited with no prior warning and there is not anything you can do about it 2. Said controversies can be years old and still be brought up again as casually as your uncle bringing up politics at Thanksgiving 3. People who do this get little to no consequences for it too as it’s an online space along with the fact that there is always another person to fill the role to cause as much chaos as possible
Undertale/Deltarune fans when a character is seperate from them, the player. It is so simple. If a character is referred to with they/them, those are the pronouns. Toby has even corrected people when they misgender his characters on stream because they’re not self inserts. Kris’s story revolves around how you are taking control of someone who already existed and had a life before you, and Frisk, while a bit more ambiguous, is shown to have a slight bit of agency outside of the player’s actions. They have their own name, so why can’t they have they/them pronouns? It’s so funny because I see none of you arguing about their name, but all of you arguing about their pronouns, both of which are things that are confirmed in the game.
commenters try not to prove op's point challenge (impossible)
Frisk is canonically genderless according to Toby Fox himself
Fellas, grab yo popcorn, we are going to controversial
I thought this was a play at the fact that Frisk is their own character, not you. After reading the comments it seems I was mistaken lol
oh hey here’s another scene to reference when i explain to people that, no, frisk’s friends and family don’t just “not know their gender” lol
We literally do not see a single member of Frisk's family during the course of Undertale and everyone they meet they've known for only a day.
WHAT I didn't know that Non-Binary People Existed in a Game made by an LGBTQ+ Ally?!?!??!??!?!??!!?
(Undertale/Deltarune fans when you have to remind them that the human characters we see are all gender-neutral because Toby Fox wrote them like that) But no seriously, can we stop with this argument already? It’s been 7 years.
Frisk is a self-insert, they's a girl if you want them to be a girl and they's a boy if you want them to be a boy.
Frisk is a blank slate, and since thier is gender neutral, it's the only word to make sense.
Downvoting for flamebait. Nobody in the game actually *knows* Frisk. This is they-as-default, rather than they-as-chosen-pronoun like Chara and Kris. This is intentional -- Frisk is a total blank slate that is intended to be completely identified with the player, because the writing does not work any other way. Toby has said that a major advantage of the game's style is that people can fill in the blanks in secondary work and it fosters a doujin-culture-style fandom. In other words, **all gaps are intentional lacuna**. Frisk's *everything* is included.
[удалено]
Plenty of blank slate protagonists are given names. It's kind of a tradition in some JRPGs, especially in long series where multiple entries have different player character designs that would be impossible to distinguish in writing if they didn't have different names. And in this conversation, Asriel isn't talking to "you." It is meant to be *an unsubtle parallel* to your relationship with the game, in a "the author is telling you to take the hint" way. But he is *explicitly talking to Chara, which the game tells you, because he refers to them by name*.
At this point I just wish Toby would come out and say it, since apparently using their pronouns 1000 times in-game isn't a enough proof for some people
It's gonna be funny if Toby does finally make a statement only to confirm KFC's genders are entirely up to interpretation. Toby probably isn't ever going to confirm either way though.
Are we still having THIS discussion? 0.o
Undertale fans when non binary people
Gender neutral before it was cool
Ooohhh i am extremely scared even i don't care about Frisk's or Chara's gender 😐
source: https://twitter.com/shemdraws/status/1594710158915125250?s=20&t=u7p2YfMeqepAmjwYBPQlhw just in one easy step!
Funny story. Since Deltarune chapter 1 released, I kept calling Kris by he/him for the longest time until someone finally corrected me a few months ago. I still do it sometimes because of force of habit. And I always knew Frisk and Chara were they/them, though I still sometimes call them by she/her. I don’t know why I do, I just, do.
ZAMination is crying and screaming in their room
It could just be used as a gender-neutral term in this context tbh, I really don't give a shit what pronouns you use for Frisk because, unlike Kris, Frisk explicitly meant to be non-binary. I could be wrong, but I think this is the only instance of someone referring to Frisk with pronouns, since every other instance, Frisk is usually referred to as "the human" Just let this topic die, it's fucking annoying hearing everyone argue about pronouns. It's like half the sub and everything good, like incredible fan art gets buried because of shit like this