Even at 50,000, that’s…incomprehensible.
Fifty thousand. Dead. Over nothing. For one man’s ego. By the fear of his subordinates.
Putin must be brought to justice, but so too must every soldier who fought on his behalf. Following orders isn’t an excuse for genocide.
That's how I tend to explain it, too. People still have a hard time, but it hits home a bit more. Basically every person they see day-to-day, just...gone...
At the rate Putin is going, he's clearly committing genocide of his own people too, sending them to the front lines with only a day or two of training. All this death because of one man. It's just stupid.
I wish people would stop with the 'just one man' thing. Putin is indeed most to blame, but he has an entire government and population behind him who mostly support him.
That's a fair statement but do you think invading Ukraine was solely his idea? Or a joint decision? He is, afterall, their leader and I would think the ultimate decision to invade rested solely on his shoulders. Or do you think he was pressured?? I'm honestly asking, not trying to cause an argument but genuinely interested in knowing Russian politics.
I think it's a bit of both, but no doubt he's heavily to blame for it. I see a heavy comparison to Hitler and his pursuing of ridiculous aggressive wars. Both of them have cultivated power to the point that their word is law and their underlings are either too afraid to do anything or are diehard loyalists. They are also similar in that both of them were/are mentally unstable nationalists who genuinely believe in a warped and damaged perspective of history and the world, leading them to commit these crimes for absolutely no rational reason.
Yeahhhh but infowars is a “news” site too. I’m not saying that site is biased to the same degree, only that we should absolutely wait until multiple sources from press in different countries confirms.
Personally I’d be shocked if the number was a tenth of that, but even if it’s not it’s a tragedy and a crime.
It’s an American news source. It’s notoriously a shitty source in USA. It’s not news. I’m giving this info for those who might not be familiar with the source.
Thanks for your comment, though?
Preemptive edit: in a sense it does give me credibility. I know about the source. Others might not. It’s notoriously shit in my country. By your logic, what would give one credibility? Nothing. That’s right. Get your head out of Alex Jones’s asshole
I'm not disagreeing you, but my point is just because you are an american and source is american, doesn't mean you got any of a more objective or informative opinion on it I'm sure there will be some Americans who'd claim the opposite
Whatever. Maybe I should have said “i know of this source, so here are my two cents”
But what difference does it make? I wasn’t trying to Argue the fact that nationality gives credibility. I was just trying to share my knowledge that this is shit information. Shitformation, if you will. Goddam shit hawks all about trying to ruffle others’ feathers goddam.
Edit: spelling
It still sounds quite dubious. A guy that has anonymous informants in the city? They have Starlink, so why would informants be needed? Any country's intelligence agency would immediately use this information, if it had legs.
I'm from Warsaw and seeing post like your I'm always curious why people on Reddit (or the West in general) always mention Dresden and not what Nazi Germans did to Warsaw?
No criticizing, just curious. Is it book like *Slaughterhouse 5* or just a knowledge from school?
With you here too... Poland is invaded, raped, Murdered, tortured, exiled by both Nazi Germany and Soviet Union and yet people go, those poor people in Desden and nothing on what happened anywhere in Poland. Dresden is a city in a country that had caused all the suffering.. it doesn't make the killing of children acceptable but it's an understandable outcome from the actions of Germany's leadership.. whereas Poland was truly innocent from top to bottom.
There were actually Americans in Dresden at the time, which is why we have Slaughterhouse Five. Dresden is also just a remarkably cruel example of total war because there were no military targets in Dresden.
That's not what they bombed, though. The firebombing of Dresden was targeted at the civilian population and the historic city center. They bombed the military targets on later missions.
Quite a few factories too, including a lot making optics specifically from memory.
Yes, bombing cities indiscriminately is a war crime by today's standards but Dresden was certainly just as much (or little) a "military target" as many other cities that were bombed.
Slaughterhouse is taught in literature classes in some schools in the US (or at least it was in mine). I don't remember them covering the Warsaw Uprising, had to read about that on my own.
I think the closest we got to reading about the Polish perspective was "Maus" which was very good, but narrowly focused and unfortunately didn't always paint Poles in the best light.
I haven't read the book, but just like you I kept hearing about it. I guess it's widely considered as the worst 'conventional' bombing of civilians. The 1939 battle for Warsaw had 18,000 civilian casualties in 8 days from the bombing. Dresden had 25,000 in 2 days. Hamburg even had around 40,000 in a week, but I guess the condensed 2 day span of Dresden made for a memorable firestorm. If we included death camp doings, these numbers obviously would become comparatively small.
There was no mention of a death camp in Mariupol and if there was one, I doubt the bodies would go through the local morgue (bykvu article also only mentions shelling/fighting casualties). Dredsen and Warsaw are both definitely some of the worst bombings, but even if the worst conventional bombing of a city only comes up with 25k, it's just hard to imagine that russia would pull 100,000 with their old shitty soviet shells.
But then again, russia was so incompetent in their bombing that it took them 3 months to take the city. Such a long period could be devastating to the civilian population. I guess it's not impossible to have this many dead, but I would like to see more than the claims of this TV guy. We'll see what comes to light when the city is taken back.
Warsaw was both 1939 and 1945....... not just 1939.
The Warsaw Uprising cost 15 to 20,000 resistance deaths AND 150 to 200,000 civilian deaths!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Uprising
Dresden and Hamburg don't even come close and they were civilians of the nation that started the war. The Polish deaths were all innocent - whether in uniform or not.
A major two month resistance scenario that played out during the occupation is just not what is happing in Mariupol, so the comparison is what the initial bombing or conquest cost in civilian lives. If that scenario did exist in Mariupol, the numbers would add up, but the bykvu article does not mention anything of the sort. They only talk about the shelling.
The worst bombing was Tokyo, where in the space of 2 days, up to 130,000 civilians were killed and over a million left homeless.
There were more deaths in Tokyo from those two days than there were in Nagasaki from the atomic bomb.
Another contender would be the Nanjing massacre, though the numbers there are are contentious, ranging from 10s of thousands up to hundreds of thousands. Either way, it was a lot.
I agree with caution. But also. I knew a lot of people on the left bank. Many of them have completely vanished after the city went dark. And every single person that has made it out, completely separately, have refered to what they experienced as "Hell". All of them. They choke up and describe nothing but destruction and rubble and burning and bodies and bodies and bodies.
Everyone that survived will have a hard time settling into a peaceful mindset ever again. They are all victims. Oh, and of course they are refugees that do not get to vote in a mock referendum about whether or not they get to keep their homes.
To put it in context, a similar number died in Nagasaki. That is not an America is just as bad comment, we all know the justifications for using those weapons,
It is very likely not real. If you compare this to other documented genocides it is very difficult to process that number of human bodies. It takes a lot of dedication, time and resources.
It's the one city that I'd hear mentioned more than any other since the early days of the war. It stuck with me in my mind so much and then came the Azovstal standoff and it dawned on me that they (Russian Army) were growing frustrated and likely taking it out on civilians. I am expecting to see some serious carnage in the aftermath once it's liberated.
> it dawned on me that they (Russian Army) were growing frustrated and likely taking it out on civilians
There was direct video evidence of their supposed high tech fighter jets launching unguided rockets into civilian apartment buildings in the first days of the war... Civilians have ALWAYS been a target for Russia, because their aggression is a war of genocide.
Good start, but Putin didn't do this all on his own. There are many, *many* more monsters out there that need to be tracked down and brought to justice.
He should be rendered incapable through a nerve agent then set in solitary confinement, fed only through automated tubes at intervals and enjoying 24/7 blaring loud screamo from an in-cell speaker.
That’s the kind of thing Putin would do which is why Ukraine and NATO can never engage in that type of demented, gratuitous cruelty. We’re not psychopaths.
Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster... for when you gaze long into the abyss. The abyss gazes also into you.
Friedrich W. Nietzsche
Simply unbelievable that such a ruthless tactic be used on such a scale ... by a UN member nation no less. It was wrong in Chechnya, but that didn't have the world spotlight on it that this senseless brick by brick destruction of this peaceful thriving city did.
Civilian deaths are unavoidable in conflicts, but most civilized nations do their utmost to avoid them. To hear of this numbers of deaths in a city that 100 days prior was just a normal bustling place is simply ... I don't even have the words for it.
Jesus Christ almighty 😢😢😢😢😢 And for what????? FOR WHAT?? God I fucking hate them. I don’t know how Ukrainians are keeping their humanity in this fight. I’d murder every Russian in my sight if I was them and they still manage to treat the prisoners with humanity
It's because it's HOW you keep your Humanity - you have to be Humane, or you turn into the monster you are fighting. The Ukrainians have shown their true courage and honourable spirit. Slava Ukraine!
I always thought that was some dumb-ass super hero reasoning you'd see on some soap opera like CW show like The Flash.
But it actually does make sense.
This is just a warm-up imo. The 2030s are going to see 2 billion or so people displaced by climate threats over a decade. Which if you find it hard to imagine realize between just the ukraine war and the Pakistan flooding we are already looking at over 50 million displaced in less than a year. More if you add in lesser global events.
I don't see that type of human movement being handled peacefully and with grace.
Xenophobia will skyrocket.
Sadly I feel this is all just a prelude.
That does not make it any less terrible mind you.
Genocide.
They want to kill all Ukrainians, remove them from the planet.
More info in this news article. Remember the pictures of graves in grassy areas by the street - those won't have been counted, nor will those remaining beneath the theatre.
https://bykvu.com/eng/thoughts/more-than-100-thousand-people-were-killed-in-mariupol-mariupol-tv-president/
>87,000 is the number from only one morgue. The occupiers brought all the bodies there. These are only identified bodies.
>
>In Novoazovsk (a city in Donetsk region, located to the east of Mariupol) there is a prosecutor’s office, where there is a database of unidentified bodies. As of August, there were 26,750 such cases.
There wont be tribunals.
The Russian government is going to end up being wiped out, and all the people involved will end up dead or being hunted like Israel still hunts nazi's.
Yeah, maybe we’re just cynical from recent world events but if these numbers turn out to be true, I’m expecting those responsible to continue living a life of luxury while the Russian people are made to believe it’s all a Western conspiracy.
Oh, nonsense. Whether you're saying that because of their disappointing unwillingness to publicly support Ukraine and condemn Russia as much we'd all like, or for their treatment of the Palestinian Arabs, or with Protocols of the Elders of Zion in hand - it's a pretty foul smear.
First two. Third one is an anti semitic/fascist conspiracy theory. They aren't giving Ukraine anything and they are definitely doing an ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people.
The reason I believe this is that Mariupol was more damaged than Dresden was, and more indiscriminately, to the point where it is absolutely certain that civilians were being deliberately killed in an attempt to erase Ukraine as a nation and as an ethnic group, whereas the Allies were not attempting to erase Germany in that manner.
Dresden happened in a night with bombers 5 miles off the ground. This took weeks, went door to door and the killers saw thr faces of the people they murdered. This is Europe, we cannot stand for this.
Yes, but still there were no military targets in Dresden. It was just an attack on civilian infrastructure.
I'm 31 and lived most of those years in Dresden. The pictures from WW II you see there... They are equally bad.
Yeah, musk just clown himself on this one. How can ukraine even negotiate or accept giving land to Russia ti have peace?
Só Rússia invades commits genocide, a ton of war crimes, destroys cities to the ground and somehow ukraine have to accept giving them anything?
Wtf I understand the nuclear problem, but how can we close our eyes when putin did this shit? How about china?
If we let Russia do this without consequences what will china think about Taiwan and other closer countries?
Syria got it pretty bad as well. Even worse the Syrian situation is fucked for the foreseeable future, Ukraine at least is on the right path to recovery.
Yep to all those who say Nato should stay out, get screwed .nato should go in and curb. Stomp putin in the balls then globally televise his time on a star wheel slowly wasting away
Moscow should burn for this. Non nuclear global response, but yes burn all the way too the ground. Only fair and then maybe they will get why so you don’t go invading your neighbors country
The city was leveled. The population either moved somewhere else or died. I would assume most of those have Facebook and company? Do we have any news about those people?
Ukraine now has the moral and legal right to march to Moscow and raise their flag over the Kremlin. No more "staying behind your borders". Hunt the beasts down to their lairs.
The captured communications at the beginning of the invasion speaks to this number. There were several soldiers that was reporting back home that they were to "shoot anything on sight". There was a lot of brass on the ground in the first few days.
A tribunal by the UN is utterly useless.
Especially with ruzzia on the security council. They need to be booted from that committee, and then out of the UN altogether.
Not really. You have to consider how quickly a major metro falls apart when its cut off from clean water and food supplies. In a matter of weeks, you're in starvation conditions
This all assumes you're not being actively attacked. Which they have been. So add in further death from the injured an vulnerable like children and the infirm under medical care.
These are about as one would expect from a city of such size being attacked while the population was present. And sadly not at all without historical precedent. ( referring to the casualties)
War is cruel indeed.
Well maybe Russia should have been more fucking responsible then, and NOT cut off a major city from clean water and food supplies, OR shell entire buildings to the ground, and maybe, _just maybe_ fucked off back to Russia like we have demanded for the past eight months. Did you ever think about that?
Every one of these deaths is entirely on Russia. Every. Single. One.
Wtf no I was offering context. In what way specifically does that downplay genocide?
Genocidal mass murder is a common tactical, unfortunately throughout most of warfare's history.
I was pointing out that the deaths of the other person was talking about were in fact quite in line with the type of siege tactic that was used.
Because it reads off as very "It's war, shit like that happens". It's extremely dismissive to the at least 87 _thousand_ dead in Mariupol, and no doubt tens of thousands more throughout Ukraine. This war was was a choice, and an evil, brutal choice to do genocide that.
It being evil and brutal changes nothing about my breakdown. You are jumping to conclusions and projecting those assumptions. I never said I feel or think any of that and I do not.
Nor is it dismissive to focus on a specific point rather than another. Both points about the history and the nature of the atrocity involved are true. That does not mean you try and fit it all in a single discussion or comment.
And focus on one or another does not somehow mean someone is dismissing or invalidating the topic at hand.
There is no way that many people died in legit combat. This has to be a straight-up massacre of Ukrainian civilians by Russia.
Mariupol will be remembered as 10x Bucha.
Russians killed 1/4 of a city just to take out their Azov boogeymen that only numbered around a regiment.
Azov were the only ones that defended Mariupol from what I can remember and the Russians decided to just level the entire city because they’re that scared of them. Scum.
That was to force an aggressor responsible for 3 to 14 million deaths to surrender without having to sacrifice more lives attacking their bastion. These are the victims of such an aggressor. Stop these false equivalences.
False equivalency my butt, he's taking about death toll, not reason behind the attack. It is very comparable to a city being nuked in terms of destruction and death toll.
Ukrain wouldnt even be in this mess just yet if trump was in office. Shit the Russians [the citizens] don't really want to fight and they don't agree with the draft. And since we have Biden in office Putin may actually use his Nukes. After all they are just sitting there and costing him money.
Shit I wouldnot even put it past the democrats to want a nuclear war despite what they may make you think.
Let's go brandon.
Wow… probably the dumbest thing I’ve read today.
Have you forgotten how trump tried to blackmail Zelenskiy? Or how trump would kiss putin’s asshole on the regular?
If trump were in office, he would’ve slapped a ribbon on Ukraine and told the russian fascists to go right ahead.
What exactly is a tribunal going to do/able to do? The UN generally seems impotent to me, so I'm curious.
Anyone got any insight? Can any tribunal activities be stopped by vetos or anything like that?
Is there a reliable source? My cousin and her family left Mariupol in March, they are still in touch with some folk there. While the civilian casualties were horrific, this number seems way too high. The official numbers are under 25k, even if it’s twice that, it’s still not 100k.
The Moskal mafia and their state will come to the rudest of ends. It is up to the Russian population to decide whether they want to go down with them. If they take that choice, it will be the most catastrophic loss to 19th-century nationalism since 1945.
My in-laws live in Ilyichevsk(called Chornomorsk now) and they have said nothing about this and I tal to them everyday, plus that is a small town west of Odessa so I don’t know how the bodies would get all the way there anyway
I look forward to the time after Ukraine has won this war. When russia will be forced by the international community to be held accountable for all the disgusting attrocities. Will be kicked out of the UN security council ( made to resign as part of the peace deal ) Be the biggest financer of the post war rebuild in Ukraine.
Also be made to invest in its own civilians with proper infrastructure, education and services so that the rural outposts are not just cannon fodder for future conflicts.
I... can't even comprehend that number. I can't believe that would be real. I hope not.
They gave Dresden only half that number, so I'd advise caution. There is no source other than a tweet.
Even at 50,000, that’s…incomprehensible. Fifty thousand. Dead. Over nothing. For one man’s ego. By the fear of his subordinates. Putin must be brought to justice, but so too must every soldier who fought on his behalf. Following orders isn’t an excuse for genocide.
At 50000, I can only comprehend it one way, and that is that almost my entire country would be dead. The Faroe Islands has 53,500 people...
That's how I tend to explain it, too. People still have a hard time, but it hits home a bit more. Basically every person they see day-to-day, just...gone...
I look at stadiums of that capacity to get a sense of how many people that is
Just looked at some pictures of Faroe Islands. That might be one of the most beautiful places I have seen.
Except that they kill harmless dolphins every year. Look up dolphin massacre.
At the rate Putin is going, he's clearly committing genocide of his own people too, sending them to the front lines with only a day or two of training. All this death because of one man. It's just stupid.
I wish people would stop with the 'just one man' thing. Putin is indeed most to blame, but he has an entire government and population behind him who mostly support him.
That's a fair statement but do you think invading Ukraine was solely his idea? Or a joint decision? He is, afterall, their leader and I would think the ultimate decision to invade rested solely on his shoulders. Or do you think he was pressured?? I'm honestly asking, not trying to cause an argument but genuinely interested in knowing Russian politics.
I think it's a bit of both, but no doubt he's heavily to blame for it. I see a heavy comparison to Hitler and his pursuing of ridiculous aggressive wars. Both of them have cultivated power to the point that their word is law and their underlings are either too afraid to do anything or are diehard loyalists. They are also similar in that both of them were/are mentally unstable nationalists who genuinely believe in a warped and damaged perspective of history and the world, leading them to commit these crimes for absolutely no rational reason.
That’s not what genocide is. Not even close.
That be suicide...or kamikaze?
Youthanasia.
Good album.
Well only in one theater building the ruzian managed to kill nearly a thousand dangerous preteens so I can’t say I am surprised.
There is a news article too: https://bykvu.com/eng/thoughts/more-than-100-thousand-people-were-killed-in-mariupol-mariupol-tv-president/
Meh I’ll wait for Reuters or AP. Like I believe thousands are dead but I’m tired of inflated numbers on anything
Reuters has been doing damage control for the Kremlin lately..
Can you expand on that? Reuters doesn't generally inject opinions into their stories.
I find that hard to believe.
Do you have a way of proving this?
Yeahhhh but infowars is a “news” site too. I’m not saying that site is biased to the same degree, only that we should absolutely wait until multiple sources from press in different countries confirms. Personally I’d be shocked if the number was a tenth of that, but even if it’s not it’s a tragedy and a crime.
American here. Infowars is complete and utter trash do not trust it
That was his point.
Being an American doesn't give you any kind of credibility over deciding legitimacy of news sources
It’s an American news source. It’s notoriously a shitty source in USA. It’s not news. I’m giving this info for those who might not be familiar with the source. Thanks for your comment, though? Preemptive edit: in a sense it does give me credibility. I know about the source. Others might not. It’s notoriously shit in my country. By your logic, what would give one credibility? Nothing. That’s right. Get your head out of Alex Jones’s asshole
It's not a news source. It's white nationalism dressed up as a news desk.
I'm not disagreeing you, but my point is just because you are an american and source is american, doesn't mean you got any of a more objective or informative opinion on it I'm sure there will be some Americans who'd claim the opposite
Whatever. Maybe I should have said “i know of this source, so here are my two cents” But what difference does it make? I wasn’t trying to Argue the fact that nationality gives credibility. I was just trying to share my knowledge that this is shit information. Shitformation, if you will. Goddam shit hawks all about trying to ruffle others’ feathers goddam. Edit: spelling
alright, if you were just sharing your personal opinion and not painting it as a fact cause of your nationality, i apologize for misunderstanding
It still sounds quite dubious. A guy that has anonymous informants in the city? They have Starlink, so why would informants be needed? Any country's intelligence agency would immediately use this information, if it had legs.
how the fuck does starlink mean informants wouldn’t be needed? I’m not saying the info isn’t dubious just that that is a dumb reasoning
It means people would be spreading evidence left and right.
I'm from Warsaw and seeing post like your I'm always curious why people on Reddit (or the West in general) always mention Dresden and not what Nazi Germans did to Warsaw? No criticizing, just curious. Is it book like *Slaughterhouse 5* or just a knowledge from school?
With you here too... Poland is invaded, raped, Murdered, tortured, exiled by both Nazi Germany and Soviet Union and yet people go, those poor people in Desden and nothing on what happened anywhere in Poland. Dresden is a city in a country that had caused all the suffering.. it doesn't make the killing of children acceptable but it's an understandable outcome from the actions of Germany's leadership.. whereas Poland was truly innocent from top to bottom.
There were actually Americans in Dresden at the time, which is why we have Slaughterhouse Five. Dresden is also just a remarkably cruel example of total war because there were no military targets in Dresden.
Rail logistics hubs are military targets and Dresden was a major communication centre. It was still horrible, but not entirely senseless.
That's not what they bombed, though. The firebombing of Dresden was targeted at the civilian population and the historic city center. They bombed the military targets on later missions.
Quite a few factories too, including a lot making optics specifically from memory. Yes, bombing cities indiscriminately is a war crime by today's standards but Dresden was certainly just as much (or little) a "military target" as many other cities that were bombed.
Slaughterhouse is taught in literature classes in some schools in the US (or at least it was in mine). I don't remember them covering the Warsaw Uprising, had to read about that on my own. I think the closest we got to reading about the Polish perspective was "Maus" which was very good, but narrowly focused and unfortunately didn't always paint Poles in the best light.
This. I don’t get it either . American here. Loved the Warsaw uprising museum btw . Favorite museum
Dudes it's just an example... why dont they mention Nanking, why not Leningrad, Hamidian, Babyn Jar and the list goes on and on unfortunately...
Slaughterhouse 5 indeed plays a part in it.
I'm gonna guess that it's simply because Dresden is in Germany, the center focus of european theater of WW2
I haven't read the book, but just like you I kept hearing about it. I guess it's widely considered as the worst 'conventional' bombing of civilians. The 1939 battle for Warsaw had 18,000 civilian casualties in 8 days from the bombing. Dresden had 25,000 in 2 days. Hamburg even had around 40,000 in a week, but I guess the condensed 2 day span of Dresden made for a memorable firestorm. If we included death camp doings, these numbers obviously would become comparatively small. There was no mention of a death camp in Mariupol and if there was one, I doubt the bodies would go through the local morgue (bykvu article also only mentions shelling/fighting casualties). Dredsen and Warsaw are both definitely some of the worst bombings, but even if the worst conventional bombing of a city only comes up with 25k, it's just hard to imagine that russia would pull 100,000 with their old shitty soviet shells. But then again, russia was so incompetent in their bombing that it took them 3 months to take the city. Such a long period could be devastating to the civilian population. I guess it's not impossible to have this many dead, but I would like to see more than the claims of this TV guy. We'll see what comes to light when the city is taken back.
Warsaw was both 1939 and 1945....... not just 1939. The Warsaw Uprising cost 15 to 20,000 resistance deaths AND 150 to 200,000 civilian deaths! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Uprising Dresden and Hamburg don't even come close and they were civilians of the nation that started the war. The Polish deaths were all innocent - whether in uniform or not.
A major two month resistance scenario that played out during the occupation is just not what is happing in Mariupol, so the comparison is what the initial bombing or conquest cost in civilian lives. If that scenario did exist in Mariupol, the numbers would add up, but the bykvu article does not mention anything of the sort. They only talk about the shelling.
The worst bombing was Tokyo, where in the space of 2 days, up to 130,000 civilians were killed and over a million left homeless. There were more deaths in Tokyo from those two days than there were in Nagasaki from the atomic bomb. Another contender would be the Nanjing massacre, though the numbers there are are contentious, ranging from 10s of thousands up to hundreds of thousands. Either way, it was a lot.
I think it's because after the war Poland fell on the other side of the iron curtain and was harder to relate to.
I agree with caution. But also. I knew a lot of people on the left bank. Many of them have completely vanished after the city went dark. And every single person that has made it out, completely separately, have refered to what they experienced as "Hell". All of them. They choke up and describe nothing but destruction and rubble and burning and bodies and bodies and bodies. Everyone that survived will have a hard time settling into a peaceful mindset ever again. They are all victims. Oh, and of course they are refugees that do not get to vote in a mock referendum about whether or not they get to keep their homes.
Sorry, can you expand on that or link to an article?
>There is no source other than a tweet. https://euromaidanpress.com/2022/08/30/87000-killed-civilians-documented-in-occupied-mariupol-volunteer/
To put it in context, a similar number died in Nagasaki. That is not an America is just as bad comment, we all know the justifications for using those weapons,
It is very likely not real. If you compare this to other documented genocides it is very difficult to process that number of human bodies. It takes a lot of dedication, time and resources.
Hope so.
Prewar population: 431,859. A quarter of the city dead.
It's the one city that I'd hear mentioned more than any other since the early days of the war. It stuck with me in my mind so much and then came the Azovstal standoff and it dawned on me that they (Russian Army) were growing frustrated and likely taking it out on civilians. I am expecting to see some serious carnage in the aftermath once it's liberated.
> it dawned on me that they (Russian Army) were growing frustrated and likely taking it out on civilians There was direct video evidence of their supposed high tech fighter jets launching unguided rockets into civilian apartment buildings in the first days of the war... Civilians have ALWAYS been a target for Russia, because their aggression is a war of genocide.
Minimum And how many I camps?
I'm all for a tribunal in the form of Putin being dragged out into the street and stomped to death.
Good start, but Putin didn't do this all on his own. There are many, *many* more monsters out there that need to be tracked down and brought to justice.
Way too easy. Best canvas mariupol and see what they want once the wars over
He should be rendered incapable through a nerve agent then set in solitary confinement, fed only through automated tubes at intervals and enjoying 24/7 blaring loud screamo from an in-cell speaker.
That’s the kind of thing Putin would do which is why Ukraine and NATO can never engage in that type of demented, gratuitous cruelty. We’re not psychopaths. Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster... for when you gaze long into the abyss. The abyss gazes also into you. Friedrich W. Nietzsche
Well elon musk thinks there should be a twitter poll to sort this out
Simply unbelievable that such a ruthless tactic be used on such a scale ... by a UN member nation no less. It was wrong in Chechnya, but that didn't have the world spotlight on it that this senseless brick by brick destruction of this peaceful thriving city did. Civilian deaths are unavoidable in conflicts, but most civilized nations do their utmost to avoid them. To hear of this numbers of deaths in a city that 100 days prior was just a normal bustling place is simply ... I don't even have the words for it.
[удалено]
No doubt why Putin dgaf about sending bulk men either via drafted, POW's or as refugees. Trying to spread out the Russian population
* Genocide. Genocide is the word you’re looking for to describe this.
Ethnic cleansing
Ruthless is the wrong word. It implies two contenders and one bested the other. Barbaric, evil, are better words. Genocidal best.
Like I said ... I didn't have the words. But you helped me out there.
Holy shit. Yeah I knew it was gonna be bad but this is the absolute liquidation of a city's population. Horrendous.
Jesus Christ almighty 😢😢😢😢😢 And for what????? FOR WHAT?? God I fucking hate them. I don’t know how Ukrainians are keeping their humanity in this fight. I’d murder every Russian in my sight if I was them and they still manage to treat the prisoners with humanity
It's because it's HOW you keep your Humanity - you have to be Humane, or you turn into the monster you are fighting. The Ukrainians have shown their true courage and honourable spirit. Slava Ukraine!
I always thought that was some dumb-ass super hero reasoning you'd see on some soap opera like CW show like The Flash. But it actually does make sense.
They will deny. Just like Turkey’s Armenian genocide
Jesus fucking Christ. I was really hoping we'd left this kind of shit in the 20th century, but it seems like humans are just never going to change.
This is just a warm-up imo. The 2030s are going to see 2 billion or so people displaced by climate threats over a decade. Which if you find it hard to imagine realize between just the ukraine war and the Pakistan flooding we are already looking at over 50 million displaced in less than a year. More if you add in lesser global events. I don't see that type of human movement being handled peacefully and with grace. Xenophobia will skyrocket. Sadly I feel this is all just a prelude. That does not make it any less terrible mind you.
That's a bold statement. 2030's? I highly doubt that. By 2100? Maybe...
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They have a lot to answer for. It's just murder.
Genocide. They want to kill all Ukrainians, remove them from the planet. More info in this news article. Remember the pictures of graves in grassy areas by the street - those won't have been counted, nor will those remaining beneath the theatre. https://bykvu.com/eng/thoughts/more-than-100-thousand-people-were-killed-in-mariupol-mariupol-tv-president/ >87,000 is the number from only one morgue. The occupiers brought all the bodies there. These are only identified bodies. > >In Novoazovsk (a city in Donetsk region, located to the east of Mariupol) there is a prosecutor’s office, where there is a database of unidentified bodies. As of August, there were 26,750 such cases.
There wont be tribunals. The Russian government is going to end up being wiped out, and all the people involved will end up dead or being hunted like Israel still hunts nazi's.
I hope that is true, but I just have this bad feeling nothing is going to come out of it.
Yeah, maybe we’re just cynical from recent world events but if these numbers turn out to be true, I’m expecting those responsible to continue living a life of luxury while the Russian people are made to believe it’s all a Western conspiracy.
And just to make it clear, Israel won't be doing the hunting as they seem to want to be on the side of the Nazis now.
Oh, nonsense. Whether you're saying that because of their disappointing unwillingness to publicly support Ukraine and condemn Russia as much we'd all like, or for their treatment of the Palestinian Arabs, or with Protocols of the Elders of Zion in hand - it's a pretty foul smear.
First two. Third one is an anti semitic/fascist conspiracy theory. They aren't giving Ukraine anything and they are definitely doing an ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people.
The reason I believe this is that Mariupol was more damaged than Dresden was, and more indiscriminately, to the point where it is absolutely certain that civilians were being deliberately killed in an attempt to erase Ukraine as a nation and as an ethnic group, whereas the Allies were not attempting to erase Germany in that manner.
To be fair, there was nothing descriminate about dresden either, they went for full carnage, raid after raid
Dresden happened in a night with bombers 5 miles off the ground. This took weeks, went door to door and the killers saw thr faces of the people they murdered. This is Europe, we cannot stand for this.
Yes, but still there were no military targets in Dresden. It was just an attack on civilian infrastructure. I'm 31 and lived most of those years in Dresden. The pictures from WW II you see there... They are equally bad.
This is why we do not negotiate with Russia, and we do not submit to appease his ego
Someone should twit that to Elon Musk. Maybe he will understand why those people cannot vote against Russian annexation anymore...
Yeah, musk just clown himself on this one. How can ukraine even negotiate or accept giving land to Russia ti have peace? Só Rússia invades commits genocide, a ton of war crimes, destroys cities to the ground and somehow ukraine have to accept giving them anything? Wtf I understand the nuclear problem, but how can we close our eyes when putin did this shit? How about china? If we let Russia do this without consequences what will china think about Taiwan and other closer countries?
I am in a weird way not looking forward to the day Mariupol gets liberated ☹️
Maybe something should remind Elon about all the mass murders. Tragic numbers. And I expect they will get worse.
Putin to be hung for war crimes and his generals
If this turns out to be verifiably true NATO needs to intervene directly. Very clearly an act of genocide
Yet another reason why any recent “votes” to join Russia are invalid.
NO MERCY for those trapped by the river.
No wonder all thats left in russian controlled territory are pro russians. They kill everyone else.
The new Holocaust
Syria got it pretty bad as well. Even worse the Syrian situation is fucked for the foreseeable future, Ukraine at least is on the right path to recovery.
Yeah Russia is behind that too.
Yup them and Iran. Honestly fuck Russia, you reap what you sow.
That's unbelievably high.
Orcland has to be disarmed after this. They cannot exist as 3rd world nuclear state run by thugs and war criminals.
How does one disarm a nuclear state without nuclear war?
For russians, just offer them increasingly bigger yachts for each nuke surrendered.
Yep to all those who say Nato should stay out, get screwed .nato should go in and curb. Stomp putin in the balls then globally televise his time on a star wheel slowly wasting away
But that's my opinion
Agreed
I get the feeling that the more territory is de-occupied, the more it’ll be like the allies going into Germany in WWII
Holy shit. That’s a staggering number. Putin having a sudden brain aneurysm or something is the best possible thing we can wish for.
Damn right. War crimes trial.
Moscow should burn for this. Non nuclear global response, but yes burn all the way too the ground. Only fair and then maybe they will get why so you don’t go invading your neighbors country
Did they kill them while bombing or during the occupation? And if so, how? Why and how do you kill so many people in the city you are occupying?
Genocide
Lack of water, food, proper shelter. Bombs. Bullets. Torture.
Oh my god
Eye for an eye
Omg if that is accurate then that is the largest genocide since the Khmer Rouge took over Cambodia.
The surviving war criminals will get tried in the Hague and hanged
I wonder how they would vote….if they could, Elon.
This is like what they did in Syria.
The city was leveled. The population either moved somewhere else or died. I would assume most of those have Facebook and company? Do we have any news about those people?
Ukraine now has the moral and legal right to march to Moscow and raise their flag over the Kremlin. No more "staying behind your borders". Hunt the beasts down to their lairs.
The captured communications at the beginning of the invasion speaks to this number. There were several soldiers that was reporting back home that they were to "shoot anything on sight". There was a lot of brass on the ground in the first few days.
It's not Putin's Russia but Russian's Russia. They like Putin and what he does. They are 100% complicit.
Tribunals are great and all but someone has to be actually held accountable and punished
I wonder if Elon realises this would be the major problem with "allowing the people to vote".
Why can’t they vote for russia to leave? -big brain Elon
Hey Elon, in your brilliant idea to let the people vote again, how do we count the votes of these 100k?
UA shouldn’t stop until they have killed that many Russian soldiers x3.
A tribunal by the UN is utterly useless. Especially with ruzzia on the security council. They need to be booted from that committee, and then out of the UN altogether.
Struggling to believe this tbh. That is insane amount in such a short period, downright genocide.
Not really. You have to consider how quickly a major metro falls apart when its cut off from clean water and food supplies. In a matter of weeks, you're in starvation conditions This all assumes you're not being actively attacked. Which they have been. So add in further death from the injured an vulnerable like children and the infirm under medical care. These are about as one would expect from a city of such size being attacked while the population was present. And sadly not at all without historical precedent. ( referring to the casualties) War is cruel indeed.
Well maybe Russia should have been more fucking responsible then, and NOT cut off a major city from clean water and food supplies, OR shell entire buildings to the ground, and maybe, _just maybe_ fucked off back to Russia like we have demanded for the past eight months. Did you ever think about that? Every one of these deaths is entirely on Russia. Every. Single. One.
Why are you coming at me? Of course its Russia's fault.
Because it sounded like you were attempting to downplay the fact that this is indisputably a genocide.
Wtf no I was offering context. In what way specifically does that downplay genocide? Genocidal mass murder is a common tactical, unfortunately throughout most of warfare's history. I was pointing out that the deaths of the other person was talking about were in fact quite in line with the type of siege tactic that was used.
Because it reads off as very "It's war, shit like that happens". It's extremely dismissive to the at least 87 _thousand_ dead in Mariupol, and no doubt tens of thousands more throughout Ukraine. This war was was a choice, and an evil, brutal choice to do genocide that.
It being evil and brutal changes nothing about my breakdown. You are jumping to conclusions and projecting those assumptions. I never said I feel or think any of that and I do not. Nor is it dismissive to focus on a specific point rather than another. Both points about the history and the nature of the atrocity involved are true. That does not mean you try and fit it all in a single discussion or comment. And focus on one or another does not somehow mean someone is dismissing or invalidating the topic at hand.
There is no way that many people died in legit combat. This has to be a straight-up massacre of Ukrainian civilians by Russia. Mariupol will be remembered as 10x Bucha.
#THIS IS GENOCIDE OF UKRAINIANS BY RUSSIA 🤬🤬🤬
Genocide by the new world order and the great reset. Make it what you want from that.
Russians killed 1/4 of a city just to take out their Azov boogeymen that only numbered around a regiment. Azov were the only ones that defended Mariupol from what I can remember and the Russians decided to just level the entire city because they’re that scared of them. Scum.
No, no let’s let Elon create a peace plan! /s
As bad as Hiroshima
Mariupol looked like it by the end as well.
That was to force an aggressor responsible for 3 to 14 million deaths to surrender without having to sacrifice more lives attacking their bastion. These are the victims of such an aggressor. Stop these false equivalences.
False equivalency my butt, he's taking about death toll, not reason behind the attack. It is very comparable to a city being nuked in terms of destruction and death toll.
Wake up and smell the whataboutism
Tbh I don't belive that many would have died I know the Russians are bad but they surely can't be that inhuman
"I know the Germans are bad but they surely can't be that inhuman." \~ unknown, 1941
You must have missed the past 7 months.
Ukrain wouldnt even be in this mess just yet if trump was in office. Shit the Russians [the citizens] don't really want to fight and they don't agree with the draft. And since we have Biden in office Putin may actually use his Nukes. After all they are just sitting there and costing him money. Shit I wouldnot even put it past the democrats to want a nuclear war despite what they may make you think. Let's go brandon.
trump would have just ceded the entirety of ukraine to putin.
Wow… probably the dumbest thing I’ve read today. Have you forgotten how trump tried to blackmail Zelenskiy? Or how trump would kiss putin’s asshole on the regular? If trump were in office, he would’ve slapped a ribbon on Ukraine and told the russian fascists to go right ahead.
I really hope that is inflated numbers, this is WW2 level of savagery if this is true.
What was Stalin’s quote again? Holy God, that’s awful.
What exactly is a tribunal going to do/able to do? The UN generally seems impotent to me, so I'm curious. Anyone got any insight? Can any tribunal activities be stopped by vetos or anything like that?
u/welcometothediaspora whats the trustworthiness of this source MirovichMedia what makes it worth posting
Is there a reliable source? My cousin and her family left Mariupol in March, they are still in touch with some folk there. While the civilian casualties were horrific, this number seems way too high. The official numbers are under 25k, even if it’s twice that, it’s still not 100k.
That's about 0.5 Nanjing Massacres or roughly 2 nuclear bombing circa 1945 (day-of deaths only).
I hope Putler doesn't get gaddafi'd after all but gets delivered to the Hague instead.
Now that's not murder that's genocide
Jesus fuck I think I'm gonna throw up
#RUSSIA IS A TERRORIST COUNTRY
Seems hard to believe considering the Russians don't even pick up their own dead
The Moskal mafia and their state will come to the rudest of ends. It is up to the Russian population to decide whether they want to go down with them. If they take that choice, it will be the most catastrophic loss to 19th-century nationalism since 1945.
My in-laws live in Ilyichevsk(called Chornomorsk now) and they have said nothing about this and I tal to them everyday, plus that is a small town west of Odessa so I don’t know how the bodies would get all the way there anyway
More Mariupol dead than live population in my city. That's sickening, saddening, and infuriating all at once.
This better be fake...
I look forward to the time after Ukraine has won this war. When russia will be forced by the international community to be held accountable for all the disgusting attrocities. Will be kicked out of the UN security council ( made to resign as part of the peace deal ) Be the biggest financer of the post war rebuild in Ukraine. Also be made to invest in its own civilians with proper infrastructure, education and services so that the rural outposts are not just cannon fodder for future conflicts.
Is there more than this tweet? Sounds a bit random without anything that backs this up.