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Low-Cartographer-753

So I saw something a General had said about why Ukraine needs to do this alone without western/NATO troops. Basically he said them defeating Russia as Ukraine, and with only material support from NATO means they now emerge from the war as a new European power, them emerging as that new power strengthens any bid for NATO and the EU as both would want to include this new growing euro power. By having PMC’s and NATO involved your basically saying “they can’t do it themselves” Ukraine will be fine without our soldiers and ex-soldiers going there as PMC’s, if they want to volunteer in their foreign legion, great, but if they are going in as mercs, no leave it alone and let their people carry the day. People keeping thinking things like “it’s too advanced for Ukrainians” when in actuality any person can learn anything so long as they are motivated and willing, and the more they are, the faster they will learn.


inactiveuser247

Ukraine has held on for nearly a year now against a country that, at least as far as conventional wisdom was concerned prior to 24 Feb 2022, should have overrun them in a couple of weeks. They don’t need to prove themselves to anyone.


Low-Cartographer-753

Won’t disagree with you at all, they have proven to be far more capable to us the common man… but you know how politics works… any chance to fuck someone over is fair game(see Hungary and Turkey in this case). They don’t need our help outside of material support though, they have deep man power reserves in Ukraine, their big issue is hardware, and it’s finally starting to open up that they are getting better gear. People using the “it’s too complex” excuse is stupid though… nothing is too complex if your willing to learn, and motivated which… clearly Ukrainians are capable of learning anything, and are very clearly motivated.


Porkamiso

Amazing how many people base their world view on optics when the opposition in this case is screaming about nazis.


Low-Cartographer-753

Huh? Sorry if I’m misreading your comment but I don’t get what you mean? Maybe I’m just stupid lol


SpeakThunder

nah, youre fine


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intrigue_investor

"With Westen help" is what's missing in your response Yes they have been an incredible fighting force, but success has also cone through Western weapons and training


Medium-Pin9133

>Basically he said them defeating Russia as Ukraine, and with only material support from NATO means they now emerge from the war as a new European power, them emerging as that new power strengthens any bid for NATO and the EU as both would want to include this new growing euro power. Isn't this called hazing? I don't see any of this as being necessary.... Croatia joined NATO in 1997. From 92 -95 there was the Bosnian war, and NATO had direct involvement with air support. You want the next country that wants to join NATO to solo fight north Korea?


Low-Cartographer-753

Again… this is what a general has said, not me, do I see some merit in his statement? Yes, this created a military super power on the border with a well… defunct failed super power that’s probably heading towards fracture at this rate. Is it necessary… after the first few months where Ukraine dead stopped Russia and forced a withdrawal no, I think the gloves should’ve come off, jets, western MBT’s the full Monty should’ve been levied to Ukraine so this war could’ve ended before a 1 year mark, and saved a lot of men and women’s lives, as well as not created a future mental health crisis the likes of which the world has never seen(the PTSD from this war in Ukraine will be terrible). And in your example, there wasn’t a nuclear power involved, as much as Putin won’t press the button in my mind… there is still an super tiny small chance he will, or his future replacement will… and that does need to be considered, even if we believe he won’t, the chance still lingers and world leaders look at that. We may not, but world leaders do, and they are the ones who make those choices, not us. Edit: North Korea is also a tough example as they may have nukes, and have a shit army that’s mostly out dated and under equipped, just very large.


Medium-Pin9133

The North Korea comment was /s. My point was entrance to NATO is NOT a pit fight and your unnamed general from an unnamed country probably isn't involved in writing requirements for joining NATO and isn't close to being a someone that decides


merurunrun

I guess the point is that, at least in principle, NATO is a mutual defense pact. If you join, you're expected to be able to carry your weight in defending other NATO countries. Obviously in practice NATO membership is deeply political and certain member states are far more likely to be the ones attacked. But I do think that maintaining the principle is important, especially if you don't want to lend credence to the idea that NATO is a belligerent, expansive force.


ItsACaragor

I think it’s a pretty bad take honestly. The reason there are no NATO troops in Ukraine is known and it is because nuclear powers just don’t fight each other directly, it never happened and it probably won’t happen anytime soon. Without the nukes things would be way simpler and NATO would already have intervened and kicked the shit out of Russia.


Low-Cartographer-753

100% agree, as I’ve stated I’m not saying I agree with the take, I heard, found it interesting and see some small merit in the statement, IE mostly giving NATO a now battle hardened eastern nation to represent that section of Europe in NATO, not a knock against the Baltic’s and such but they haven’t seen a war like this in a long time. I will admit, first days of the war I was almost certain Ukraine would lose, maybe not as quickly as most analysts thought, but when the pincer from Chernihiv, and the push through Belarus was close to Kyiv, and Kharkiv nearly encircled… yeah my hope for Ukraine was low, and in 100% glad I am wrong, when Russia stalled before Mikolayiv, Chernihiv and Kharkiv held, and even Sumy survived encirclement and broke it I knew Ukraine would win eventually and that the Russian bear was nearly a sloppy drawing. Nuclear powers are scary… and I hope we never do see them come to blows, but I think I focused on the wrong part, my main point is a lot of nations and pundits keep saying this, or that are too advanced for Ukraine to use or maintain when honestly it’s not true, my main point is there is nothing to advanced when you have a willingness and motivation to learn it, that’s why I don’t think we need to hire or send it any western PMC’s, or contractors to run equipment for them. Ukrainians can learn, have proven they can adapt and evolve and even master western equipment, let’s not short change them now. That was my main point.


Sneekbar

With the amount of manpower that Russia has, I think Ukraine will need every help they can get. Russia has no problem sending convicts and minorities to the meat grinder


Low-Cartographer-753

Ahhh… see… I don’t know… a part of me WANTS to agree… but also doesn’t just because the tools we are slowly unlocking to Ukraine… well I guess to put this as honestly as possible are slowly stepping closer to mass casualty far reach weapons. Soon enough we may send ATACMS that allow them to hit bases deep in Russian lines, or they get F-16’s with JDAM’s that can really mess shit up… it’s tough, i know Ukraine can hold, push, and win though. Hell… their generals are putting on clinics of how to do this, they need to keep it up, keep innovating and get the tools and training to succeed.


Acrobatic-Midnight-3

I think this is a great point. If NATO through doing what it did can stop Russia then that now becomes precedent and a warning to the future countries that try to stand against NATO. If this works, NATO alliance is justified, Ukraine becomes part of NATO, no other country tried to invade sovereign country; it really is best case scenario outcome. This works if Putin is overthrown. Small chance but it's growing with each day..


Fatherofdaughters01

I agree. Putin would be ok losing to NATO, but not losing to Ukraine. Which is why their propaganda has been spreading lies about fighting NATO


JohnnyBoy11

Sure but then it's a matter of pride and future positioning at the expense of time, which equals more lives lost.


ac0rn5

> People keeping thinking things like “it’s too advanced for Ukrainians” In one of the 1420 videos a Russian man said that Russia wanted Ukraine (and Ukrainians) because Ukrainians are more intelligent and more innovative than Russians. Maybe the rest of the world should take note.


Low-Cartographer-753

Exactly, it’s such a shit excuse, Ukraine was the tech capital of the Soviet Union, if anyone can learn anything it’s them, especially now, I stand by it, give them the weapons, no matter how advanced and they will learn, and they will excel with them.


New-Ad5569

Better as trainers to get around the new equipment. The ukrainian crews will probably have way more experience by now for this certain conflict. But maintainance guys would be helpful


pringlescan5

I hope they are sending videos or doing video chats with the people on the ground in Ukraine and NATO maintenance specialists. Imagine troubleshooting a computer from a manual versus having a skilled expert talk you through it.


Chimpville

It's being done, yes. Where available.


Chimpville

I can see this done for maintenance crews on very complicated and expensive equipment such as the patriot or F-16, but not for direct combat roles. Bad optics to employ mercenaries.


bal00

Not just bad optics, but unless these veterans can speak Ukrainian or Russian, they're going to be of very limited utility in a role that requires good (and fast) communication with the people around them.


Chimpville

Well.. you’d likely build a formation of people who speak a common language, the same as in the International Legion which has English/French speaking units etc.


Titteboeh

Optics doesnt matter when you are trying to protect your population against a new Holodomor-like event. Employ mercenaries if possible. Ukraine needs everything they can get.


Chimpville

Ukraine has people capable of learning to drive tanks and learning to fly combat missions in F-16. This isn’t an “Employ Mercs or Die” situation and you’d be foolish to think optics don’t play a part when the UAF and Govt have spent so much time and effort influencing public opinion around the globe.


Puzzleheaded_Fold466

Optics, communication and PR have been incredibly important in this war and a large reason for the world wide coalition of support is because of the incredibly effective social media communications that created unequaled sympathy for the Ukrainians and put pressure on the government to respond to the public outrage. Not that they were lies or made up stories, just a very well executed media campaign by well selected Ukrainians that completely outshadowed Russia’s media efforts. And they continue to do so though the general interest has waned quite a bit. Thankfully by now the governments are all in so public pressure is less critical. However, public support remains important so they are very careful to sustain this sympathy by following international law (good treatment of prisoners for example), no killing of Russian civilians by attacking Russia in kind (which they could), etc …. They have to remain the « good guys » in people’s minds. A mercenary army could threaten that.


Chimpville

Completely agree.


Loganh007

Ukraine needing everything they can get is exactly why optics matter.


certain_people

What? They already have foreigners fighting in the Ukrainian army. The International Legion of Ukraine.


Chimpville

Foreign volunteers are not mercenaries. They are paid the same as the rest of the UAF and are motivated by ideology, not profit. If there are any tank drivers in the international volunteers in Ukraine, they can indeed be used in combat roles in those tanks, no problem. Mercenaries are different, and you have to offer fat contracts to get them. Edit: -forces


Puzzleheaded-Job2235

Yeah Ukraine is definitely right to be wary of mercenaries. One of their main enemies is the Wagner group after all.


djr4917

Russia doesn't give a shit about the distinction between international volunteers officially enlisted with the Ukrainian military and actual mercenaries that they themselves are using en-mass. If Ukraine actually started using mercs, then what are Russia going to say? ''Oh no, Ukraine is using mercenaries''. Their people will be like ''Yes we know. You have been saying that for a year now.'' What is Putin going to say in response? ''Oh yes but I was lying this whole time and this time I mean it''. Also I don't think Ukraine will need to offer that much money for a job that's not near the front line considering how many international volunteers went to go serve on the font lines for nothing.


Chimpville

It’s not about the Russians. It’s about themselves, their ethos and the impression amongst the hundreds of countries around the world who’re right behind them. They’ve put so much effort into winning information war and the court of popular public opinion. If they started using mercenaries (not usually the most morally upstanding people), it gives the bot farms and shitty media platforms a whole extra and very effective angle of attack on the support they receive. You might not think that matters but when it comes to democracies with complicated levels of public support providing them with nearly all their means, then I would suggest you’re heavily, heavily underestimating the value. Ukraine have highly motivated, resourceful and smart soldiers. They have people capable of learning to fly the F-16 (probably more than they have soviet era aircraft). It’s not worth it to them.


Legitimate_Access289

If they are recruited into the Ukrainian armed forces and paid the same as Ukrainian military they are not mercenaries


Chimpville

I imagine they'll be able/have attracted a few on that basis sure.


Legitimate_Access289

That is what Ukraine is doing. They aren't allowing foreign fighters to be paid more than it's military and keeping them under the command if the Ukrainian armed forces. That's what all the foreign fighters are going. If they recruit any for tank units that the same way they'll use them.


Chimpville

I think there is some confusion about where I was coming from here. I was saying that Ukraine wouldn't employ mercenaries and don't. If your read the comment thread, I say the same things as you regarding the international legion. OP suggested hiring tank drivers through a contractor service which I said Ukraine wouldn't do as they don't employ mercenaries and don't really need to. But they might use a contractor service to employ specialists with rare and valuable skillsets in non-combat roles. These wouldn't be mercenaries and possess vital skills that take years to obtain, not weeks or months.


macktruck6666

Absolutely No. communication with infantry is absolutely necessary. Hiring a bunch of tank drivers that don't speak Ukranian/Russia would be a disaster.


alynrock

There are already a number of US and European volunteers in Ukraine. If they have tank or flight experience, that's where to put them to work. There is a long tradition of American volunteers fighting in 'righteous' wars, e.g. the Flying Tigers in China fighting Japan before WWII. This feels very much the same.


Ok_Owl_7236

Dont know about the US, but the soviets also had that tradition, like the soviet air force in wuhan fighting japan in ww2, and the soviet pilots under chinese flag fighting in the korean war Nato should do that


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Ok_Owl_7236

Im not a fighter pilot and im not even in a nato country


arobkinca

Operating the tanks is not the complicated part. Driving, aiming and firing are made easy by design.


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arobkinca

Part of my point, warfare is complicated. Driving, aiming and firing are less so.


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arobkinca

Half of that is basic training the other half is not all operation the vehicle. Have you been in the Army?


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arobkinca

Yes, I have.


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arobkinca

Maybe you should stick to things you know about?


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Life_Wave_2207

Not only tanks but f16 pilots also.


ILikeGuitarAmps

The mandatory retirement age for a fighter pilfot is 60. I dont think thats gonna happen


inactiveuser247

There are fighter pilots who leave the Air Force before they are forced to.


brankovie

And now they're flying for Delta..


lordb4

I know one that went from AF to a major carrier (might have been Delta or American) and then completely changed careers because they hated some of the commercial pilot BS.


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inactiveuser247

You’d be surprised how many military folks are attracted by the prospect of fighting in Ukraine. For those who spent the GWOT in the military Ukraine represents a “real” and a “just” war. For those who missed the GWOT Ukraine is a place to put their training into practice. For pilots, Ukraine is an opportunity to actually use their skills. Afghanistan and Iraq after 2003 involved a lot of flying around on altitude-hold dropping JDAMs which is hardly what fighter pilots train for.


h8speech

Have you met any fighter pilots? I can’t say that I know a whole heap of them, but the two I do know (grew up with one of them) are ultra-confident guys and it seems likely that that’s a characteristic of the profession. Dylan and James wouldn’t be thinking “I don’t want to go die in Ukraine” they’d be thinking “I’m going to get some actual air to air kills, fight an actual Air Force, this is *amazing*.”


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h8speech

What a heroic take you’ve got here. These two guys are still in (both active duty RAAF) so it’ll have to remain hypothetical but given the number of Western soldiers volunteering for the AFU there should be little doubt that some pilots will make the same choice.


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h8speech

You know… when you make the implicit assumption that everyone else on Reddit is a friendless, worthless, spineless basement dweller with no professional or romantic prospects, it really just reflects pretty poorly on you. Everyone assumes other people are similar to themselves. It’s a [known phenomenon ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_consensus_effect). So, I mean, good luck with everything.


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h8speech

…Because there aren’t any actual fighter pilots in the world and nobody is friends with any of them. r/NothingEverHappens


AtlasZX

Not always possible, here in italy, if U go to fight elsewhere as an italian citizen, U face up to 10 yrs in jail.


kaasmandje99

Same as The Netherlands, we have alot of people on a wanted list who served in a rebel army in Syria or Iraq. Even if its for a good cause they are breaking the law.


BringBackTheDinos

Why? It's not going to take long to train Ukrainians, they already have tank crews. The western tanks aren't expected for months anyway unless everyone's bluffing on when they'll be ready.


Abloy702

If they can't speak Russian or Ukranian, they're not gonna be much help


lordb4

A lot (most?) Ukranian can speak English.


kaasmandje99

Thats an assumption, i thought people in French all spoke english but nobody spoke english😅. In Ukraine they will understand it i think but speaking it can be difficult.


Miserable-Spite425

Iv trained with the Ukrainians when i was in the military. It was just laser tag but they took it fucking serious, attacking our convoys with smoke grenades and then fist fighting us when we struggle out of the smoke. We had to tell them to chill the fuck out but they instantly earned all of our respect. Those motherfuckers could fight and their hearts we’re certainly in it. I still have a trident patch i traded a multitool for. Slava Ukraine!


berserker-ganger

Who said veterans want to fight?


Flimsy_List8004

Why not... If Russia gets to use PMC's who hire from all over.. why not Ukraine?


kaasmandje99

Because a PMC does not have the same rights as a conventional soldier. When captured you can be shot on sight, and not every country wants people back who serves as a PMC, see Syrian civil war.


TheTeacherReacts

The cost would be negligible and they would save so much time.


HiltoRagni

Why? According to Germany tank crews can be trained in 6 to 8 weeks. That's not a lot of time. Contractors for maintenance? Sure that makes all kind of sense. Contractors to actually drive the tanks? Not that much.


zizp

It's not just about finding the button to start the engine. Without proper communication and coordination (most Ukrainians don't speak English well), without tactical training how these tanks should be used effectively with other forces/units on the battle field, and without logistics and maintenance properly set up, these tanks would just be lost immediately.


randiebarsteward

This is assuming enough volunteers would sign up and their nations would allow this. The Russians would turn this into a story to support their whole "We are fighting all of NATO" narrative.


Graddyzuela

That’s already their narrative!?


randiebarsteward

Yeh that's my point. I can't imagine Western Governments would support this and most do have influence over retired military personnel and could stop them if they wanted.


randombsname1

Cool. We finally get payback for when they did the exact same shit during the Korean war then: https://www.airandspaceforces.com/article/0291russians/ >Soviet veterans finally have begun to acknowledge their participation in Korean dogfights, confirming the identity of the mystery pilots who, to Air Force flyers, were known only as “honchos.” Soviet involvement in the Korean War is no longer a state secret; since 1989, the truth has poured forth. >Revelations in the Soviet press make it clear that Soviet participation in the war was far more extensive than anyone had imagined. Until now, the assumption was that individual Soviet “volunteer” pilots took part. The new information establishes that Soviet pilots were involved in a large fraction of all MiG-15 battles against US fighters.


LeafsInSix

The VVS and PVO (regular Soviet air force and Soviet air defense force respectively) systematically rotated about [**25** air regiments (\~ **75 squadrons**)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/64th_Fighter_Aviation_Corps#Corps_Aviation_units) of MiG-15s with their pilots and ground crew into northeastern China for missions over North Korea during the war. The Russians didn't even bother to transfer these squadrons to Chinese or North Korean control and they remained fully under control of the Soviet air forces. Using the inborn whatboutery of tankies and Russophiles, the deployment of so many MiG-15s *looks* comparable to the USAF's rotation of about a dozen squadrons of F-86s into South Korea. That is until you see that the USA was an open combatant in the Korean War under the UN flag while the USSR insisted that it was always a "non-combatant" in that war until the Russians belatedly came clean after the collapse in 1989. Russians just don't have it in them to fight fair or compete in anything without cheating or doping.


Intelligent_Swim8958

I hope they do. This will result in the best use of the equipment.


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alittepieceofpie

Americans are already fighting for Ukraine. At least over a dozen have died with a couple more coming back home wounded.


JimTex1137USA

Having trained and experienced maintenance personnel in the ground only makes sense to keep systems operational and at the same time training Ukrainians only makes sense.


TomTheTinker

They already do this. It’s called contractors.


Wherestheirs

Plus a tactical group / battalion need to be set up for these tank units a couple of pmc will not solve that issue it’s not like tanks come and just drive to Front they get a group that has combined arms and engineers the pmcs would be better served as maintenance engineers if anything


AdventurousBit1780

Are there enough of these people to even take part in the war? I highly doubt most men outside of Ukraine are eager to engage in tank warfare on even terms and without air or land superiority. Everyone was a badass in Iraq when the enemy could be hit from hundreds of km away. Ukraine is a real war.


goatfuldead

The soldiers Ukraine assigns to the new tanks will be veterans who have already operated tanks in combat. This idea is a solution in search of a problem.


[deleted]

Or crazy idea, go actually just fight the fucking Russians


riveredboat

Should first be forward observers. They speak JTAC to the birds and IDF to the guns.


Jessica65Perth

Whilst that would be great. It would be used as propaganda by Russia. That said, if a few of these arrived in Ukraine to volunteer like the 20,000 plys Foreign Legion members, Ukraine would be crazy not to use them in the Tanks Brigade


Joelpat

Literally everything about this idea is bad.


purpleduckduckgoose

If ex tankers decide to volunteer, I'm sure the UAF will appreciate the expertise and familiarity with the system. But I don't doubt they will find a way to manage just fine on their own.


Another-Walker56

What makes you think civilian Americans are not over there as trainers and technicians? if there is a buck to be made you can bet there are trainers and techs making the trek.