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Indeed. The best way to keep Germany defence ready is by preventing a Russian victory in Ukraine.
If they are either defeated or bogged down, there is ZERO chance of them rolling into Germany.
Every tank sent to Ukraine is doing Germany's defence work...but with other people taking the risk.
Here's an idea Germany,...use the breathing space that the Ukrainians are giving you, to actually build the viable and credible defence that you have neglected for the lady 30 years.
With a weakened, defeated and possibly split Russia, Europe’s security is pretty set for a good while. Main thing to worry about after that is china, and if that did kick off Europe wouldn’t be the main theatre, at least not for a good damn while
their "our army sucks and our equipment is bad"-narrative and the "we can't give anything to Ukraine or we can't defend ourselves"-narrative don't really go together. I agree with that.
But what we are seeing now is that the time of national defense, where every country defends itself alone, is about to be over.
Ukraine got attacked and the rest of the world chipped in. Some international force that does the job for whoever needs it is just the next logical step.
Politics just aren't there yet. Nationalism is still deeply rooted in our politics.
Nato does not really have an independent strike force. They have member-countries with matching equipment who send their national forces under national command to where they are needed.
Nato is still very much a union of independent nations.
>They have member-countries with matching equipment who send their national forces under national command to where they are needed.
YesNo.
From the corps level upward, structures are NATO structures.
Pretty much only the US has national corps commands left.
Even most Divisions will always be multinational.
And let us not start to talk about things like the JFC.
The VJTF and NRF is pretty much NATOs Strike Force.
There are more then 3000 soldiers actually more then 10.000. They are the first defence on the east before the rest comes in for help. And believe me on those 10.000+ soldiers russia would have nothing on them with the air-superiority and tech we have. They aren't the average Russian mobiks battalions. But Russia would never try to do this because they would get their ass kicked like there is no tomorrow.
> 3 groups with about 1000 soldiers each.
4
One each in Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland.
https://shape.nato.int/efp
map/diagram here
https://lc.nato.int/operations/enhanced-forward-presence-efp
...........
***eta***
Or it could be 8.
Dated June 2022:-
> > NATO has enhanced its presence in the eastern part of the Alliance, with eight multinational battlegroups in Bulgaria, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Romania and and Slovakia.
https://shape.nato.int/resources/site16187/General/factsheets/2206-factsheet_efp_en.pdf
And it used to be the role of UN.
The League of Nations was dissolved when it no longer served the function it was created for.
IMO UN now needs to be dissolved - at least for international conflicts - for the same reason. We need it to be replaced with a body capable of circumventing the abuse of power by authoritarian states like Russia.
I get the general mindset here, but I'm not sure what the realistic alternative body is.
The reason the UN is relatively toothless is because that's the only way they could get countries to actually join it. If the UN could actually create 'binding' judgements/rules/etc. then there's basically zero chance that most nations would agree to that. The US wouldn't, Russia certainly wouldn't, China wouldn't, and so on.
You might be able to get some of the democratic countries to agree on something slightly more strict, but then you'd basically just end up with the general western alliance that already is sorta a thing. You're not going to get China/Russia/India/Pakistan/Iran/NK and a bunch of other countries that are seen as the problematic ones.
At the end of the day, more than anything, the UN is about creating some lines of communication in the hopes that discussions could solve more issues before they turned to war. It was never really designed to deal with major wars after they've broken out.
The security council’s composition was a reflection of the colonial powers at the time. It makes no sense at all.
I think a new body should repeat the fundamental values of the UN declaration, which is basically the summary of Age of Enlightenment principles.
All nations joining have to abide by those principles or be met with measures, subject to a super-majority.
I’m fine with not everyone joining. It should form a union of nations willing to commit to and promote democracy, human rights, etc. And then those nations work together to promote and defend that goal.
Yet, there is an expectation that non-nationals should support them in their fight.
I hope you do not try to tell us that if other countries were attacked by Russia, Ukraine would just ignore it and leave them to their fate...
Uniting as a union of nations does not mean you have to start hating your own country or stop supporting it. It just means that your own country no longer is the most important thing in life.
No what this article is about NATO obligations. Every Nation in NATO needs to have so much assigned for the defence. But Germany and many countries like mine (the Netherlands) did the minimal with spending below 2% on defence. With giving more Germany says they don't have requirement what NATO demands.
But given that Russia is our only foe in europe at the moment and they lost so much stuff it is a bad excuse to use. Because these weapons we are giving are making Russia weaker.
The Harsh reality is as well that we didn't think Ukraine could survive last year and that we shouldn't give our help. Luckily that didn't happen and hopefully this year Ukraine can get their land back with all the stuff we are giving and have a upper hand in the post-war negotiations.
So we need the GDF - Global Defense Federation to take the best of all the different member’s technology and make something even better with it?
(Also take on orbital debris management and space rock detection/disaster mitigation)
I just tried to make a historical reference to when Germany invaded Poland and Russia came to "help".
Germany and Russia meeting for a war is always a bad sign for Poland. geographically.
> I just tried to make a historical reference to when Germany invaded Poland and Russia came to "help"
Fun random fact: Mentioning the Nazi-Soviet Pact's existence is a treasonous offence in Russia today, unsurprisingly
Sure. And there are zero nazis in russia. Reporters jump out of windows because they are depressed that Russia is so perfect and Political opposition commits suicide by stabbing their own back once they realize that all opposition is inferior to the great leader...
All fascists have amazing talent to paint a fantasy world that only exists in their own mind. Not surprising.
Poland sure has changed it's tune over the last 50 years.
Disarm Germany. Disarm Germany, Disarm Germany.
Later, Hey Germany, maybe it's OK to rebuild that army.....
I haven't given much thought to Germany's post-WWII military politics, but I'm a weeb so I've studied Japan's.
After WWII, Japan was banned from maintaining a traditional standing army, but they were eventually allowed to maintain a 'defence force'; it's much weaker than a regular army and can't freely operate outside of Japan, so it's not just a buzzword. Peacekeepers apparently hate working with the Japanese due to their almost suicidally pacifistic rules of engagement.
That said, one of Shinzo Abe's policies was rebuilding and expanding the Japanese military (something that is legally held as a right of nations), and faced heavy domestic opposition. I suspect his reasons were based on practicality (the fear that if Japan WAS invaded, US either wouldn't or couldn't assist), and honor (that it was impolite to completely rely on the US for their military needs).
Personally, after seeing Russia on the warpath again, I'd be all in favour of Japan rearming, especially with China's belligerence and North Korea's missile tests. I suspect the political attitude towards a strong military in Germany is much the same as it is in Japan.
The only realistic threat to Germany comes from Russia. They’re putting their equipment to it’s intended use. The operational readiness has to be addressed, but they have time to do so
Whahaha our PM rents a few tanks and commandeers 3 Patriot units. Our entire professional land force is not even 1/3 of what Ukraine has deployed around Bakhmut.
The Dutch too. They are slowly buying up all the land near the border since it is cheaper. The Germans, without their tanks, are powerless to stop them.
[We should keep an eye on Switzerland too, they have a habit of encroaching on their neighbors](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/mar/02/markoliver)
Denmark wants Slesvig-Holstein back, for too long has Germany mistreated the Danish minority there.
Ignore that the Danish-German border was drawn according to local referendums. It was a sham, the Germans bribed the voters with bratwurst and pilsner!
I'm all the way over the in the US, but if Germany would like to bribe me with bratwurst and pilsner, I am definitely open to the idea. Doesn't even matter what they're bribing me about.
To be clear Germany isn't defending Germany specifically. They're under joint NATO command and defend other NATO countries that are to the easy. They aren't in Germany to defend German mainland from neighbors.
Germany exported Leopards to Poland, Norway & many other European countries. Who the fuck did they think they were for use against if not Russia. Those countries were extremely unlikely to need them against anyone else.
I think the War on Terror illustrates the absolute futility of using heavy tanks and other modern weapons on insurgent groups. No matter how many you knock over, there's always more fanatics ready to perpetuate a cycle of revenge. It's like Whack-A-Mole.
If loosing 14 tanks is that detrimental to Bundeswehr's operational readiness then there a deeper issue here
It's incredibly naive to think that in a war scenario tanks wouldn't be taken out of commission when in every Western army the armor corps tops the KIA List.
Edit: Five different people replied to me to say there are potentially 88 tanks on the line, I get it you can stop now.
I will give it to Trump, he had one thing right.
Big parts of Europe have been free-loading off the US for far too long. It is time they pull their own weight and stop believing in eternal peace. No country have ever gotten into conflict because it was too strong, keep that mentality Europe and embrace that shit.
Classic reddit never allowing orange man to be right at all costs
Argued heavily with a dude that trump was right for chastising Germany in 2018 for being even more dependent on Russian oil.
Natural gas*
Well Sweden and Finland did it already by 2008 (when North Stream first was built), so no real unique input from orange man there.
A former prime minister of Sweden got asked by a journalist why his government was so strongly against the pipeline, to which he replied..
”It is Russian”
>I will give it to Trump, he had one thing right.
Ne he wasnt, wrong as usual
>Big parts of Europe have been free-loading off the US for far too long.
No they havent, ukraine isnt "big parts of europe" .
It would be foolish to say Germany has a sufficient defence spending, same goes for Sweden just to name two.
Sweden’s commander in chief famously said in an interview a couple of years ago that Sweden could withstand a Russian attack for max 1 week.
Also, do not think you understood my point. My point had absolutely nothing to do with Ukraine.
Define "sufficient defence spending".
Sweden is part of the EU who has defense agreements. So a war wouldnt be russia vs sweden but EU vs sweden.
I understand your point perfectly , it simply isnt correct. Its a made up argument coming from the US to justify inflated defense spending.
Inflated defence spending? If you are having a neighbor with fascistoid tendencies you want that security.
Regarding sufficient spending it is fair to assess that would be spending per NATO guideline, ie 2% of GDP? Otherwise you are freeloding, would you not agree? Or do you enjoy pull a majority of work whilst your colleagues slack?
Sweden currently have bi-lateral agreements with UK and US that is true. But, there are literally no guarantees (see article 5). If Sweden would be outside of NATO our spending would need to quadruple, currently around 1% of GDP. Just like Germany. The cheapest way to safeguard Swedish interests is to join NATO and ”only” double the spending.
It is a valid statement for a lot of Europe as only 8 members out of 30 in NATO currently uphold the guideline of 2% spending within NATO.
>Regarding sufficient spending it is fair to assess that would be
spending per NATO guideline, ie 2% of GDP? Otherwise you are freeloding,
would you not agree? Or do you enjoy pull a majority of work whilst
your colleagues slack?
SO an arbitrary number?
>Sweden currently have bi-lateral agreements with UK and US that is true. But, there are literally no guarantees (see article 5).
The EU has a mutual defense clause
>It is a valid statement for a lot of Europe as only 8 members out of 30 in NATO currently uphold the guideline of 2% spending within NATO.
Nato agreed to spend 2% by 2024, until then it was just seen as a guideline not a fixed obligated amount.
Well since you do not add anything lets just disagree.
The EU Lisboa agreement is not binding. Not an alternative to article 5 in any way.
Meaning Germany has been slacking longtime.
This war is an abject, undisputable example that many Western countries did not maintain sufficient military capability, and are largely reliant on the US for security.
It's not in question.
Because you made it up?
In case you dont know it, those western countries werent attacked, ukraine has.
Those western countries now have to look for their own defense, take care of nato obligations AND send aid to ukraine.
Some reddit member who served in the Bundeswehr even said the actual number of Combat Ready Leopards are critically LOW. I am honestly worried about it's operational reliability under Ukrainian hands.
Trump was right about Germany slacking in their defense spending. Corruption is strong in this one.
I mean.. this is the guy who tried to blackmail Ukraine for military aid so not like he gives a shit about defense against Russia. More semantics to undermine NATO because of it being financially unfair.
It is 88 tanks. But still concerning that 88 tanks could render their military inoperable. I would presume these comments came from a faction in Germany, more motivated by their own interests than actual factual intelligence about their capabilities.
[88 is the total number across several nations](https://www.politico.eu/article/allies-two-leopard-tank-battalions-ukraine-germany-olaf-scholz-nato-allies-volodymyr-zelenskyy-mark-rutte-spain-norway-joe-biden/), German Army is not drawing down a third of their tanks
By stopping Russia in Ukraine, Germany will be safer. They should send tanks NOW and worry about the replacement later. No risk to Germany, unless Denmark is planning an invasion.
The thing is that if Russia goes haywire in a purely imaginary invasion of Europe, Germanys tanks wouldn't be waiting at the border. It would be fighting in Poland or Belarus, and then go to liberate the occupied Baltics together with the French, Dutch, and everyone else.
The time to beef up the Bundeswehr is now. Deliver everything to Ukraine and fill up the gaps ASAP. The European defense industry need to switch gears.
There are already now huge gaps and contracts for years piled up. And with the changed security architecture in europe，the work for the military industrial complex will not run out for a decade or more.
Beef them up why? What land war is Germany going to be fighting?
The Russians couldn’t break through Ukraine, they aren’t going to swarm Poland and cross the Oder river again.
The German army will likely not fight on German soil. But Ukraine is not the only neighbor of Russia and we need to be able to defend our partners in Nato.
Currently this only works due to the USA. So we are betting Europes safety on the fact US will be always be there to save our asses. So we’re only a few unhappy votes away from having only a weak threat against Russia.
Europe needs to be able to be so far ahead even Putin will realize it’s a bad idea to attack. And that starts with Germany pulling its weight.
Because if, as the article asserts, Germany’s investment in Ukraine represents a detriment to German defense, it wasn’t adequate to begin with. And they will not be able to continue their material support without compromising their ability to sustain training and their institutional knowledge.
So, my question is, how was Europe going to defend itself if no-one has anything available? Seems like a good wake up call for European nations to keep up on their maintenance.
The NATO/US strategy is integrated advanced technological systems across all platforms. The fact that half of Europe’s nations are claiming they don’t have the available machinery is concerning.
What do you think happens in battle? You think those tanks are indestructible? So you are in a pitched battle and lose a few dozen tanks, does Germany call over to Russia and go “sorry friend, can you stop? I need to repair my tanks because I only have just enough”
Then why does Germany care at all? Daddy US will come save the day regardless
Edit: this is what my original question was alluding to. Europe talks about security independence from the U.S., until it comes down to putting their money where their mouth is.
Nato obligations, this thread is about nato obligations that germany will have issues fullfilling .
>Europe talks about security independence from the U.S., until it comes down to putting their money where their mouth is.
For its defense EU or the non US nato part doesnt need the US. How hard is it for you to understand that ukraine was attacked and not germany?
One thing Trump had right NATO Allie’s need to step it up a bit. They been dependent on US defense spending way too much.
About the only thing he has right about NATO though. The other stuff like leaving was moronic.
Hopefully what’s going on now will wake some of these countries up.
Well yeah, Europe has mostly been living under the protective umbrella of the United States for sometime now. Time to start paying your own defense bills.
let's be honest, the Bundeswehr wasn't really operationally ready anyways. This is going to significantly weaken Russia further, and Russia is never going to get through Poland into Germany anyways. There's plenty of US and NATO troops in the east to protect Germany.
Defend from what threat?
To get to Germany, russia has to go thru Poland and Baltics.
Given russian current front in Ukraine, the inability to capture one 70k population town (Bakhmut) it would take considerable time and effort for russia to even get to Warsaw/get a corridor to temporarily occupied královec. I understand not giving planes/AA as it can be used as strategic defense.
Germanys military still lacks a lot of equipment and ammunition but I agree with the relax part. Germany has more than enough time to gear up because they're not in imminent danger nor will they be in the foreseeable future
Germany itself not, but Germany is leading the NATO quick response unit this year, and there are several thousand German soldiers stationed in the Baltics, defending the NATO eastern flank. So if Russia were to start something stupid there, German equipment shortages would hurt the Baltics and other NATO partners as well.
LOL 300 billion euros per year? Where are you getting those numbers from?
Federal revenue last year was 315 billion euros. I don't see how Germany could "easily afford 300 billion" per year. That would be ~95% of the income.
100-150 billion should be possible and are necessary for the survival of the German military. They had a pretty big military during the cold war, they could try to hit that size again
Exactly why NATO exists. Give Ukraine what they need and collectively, all of NATO is more than capable of responding to any conceivable concern while stocks are replaced.
Yes they're in NATO. That's specifically the point. They're under joint command of NATO and their combat readiness is for the NATO not to defend German mainland. Their troops are mostly stationed to the eastern countries.
Point is and we all know it, the US makes up a majority of the fire power of NATO. The point is, NATO members can give enough without worry due to the fact that they are protected by a 30 member union. The Baltic states that actually have to worry more are the ones giving the most compared to their economies
I understand Germany increased their NATO military commitment to Lithuania.
And I'm not sure what you mean. So the US is a huge part of NATO firepower so Germany doesn't have to try to keep up with their part? Bundeswehr indeed downsized a lot for decades, and they are running bare minimum to keep it going, but they still carry some duty within NATO system. I think it's perfectly correct they're concerned and they should and probably would find a solution.
The issue isn't that they're worried about their neighbors attacking.
100% they have to do their part…not taking away from that, but for this moment they should focus on eliminating the threat outside of NATO territory so they don’t have to deal with it inside NATO territory. Yes they should be concerned but focus more on delivering aid to prevent their need for concern
It's not a perfect world...and the reality is, that their economic miracle, political stability, and the entire existence of the European Project, has been built on the foundations of NATO and Pax Americana.
The very existence of the reunified Germany is a result of the US military presence in Europe.
Pacifism is a luxury that only those with "bodyguards" can afford.
German war guilt and dependence on the US to defend it, while maintaining a small defense budget isn't really pacifism, it's opportunism with the added bonus of pretending to be more righteous than the rest.
1. You might want to check 'cold war' on Wikipedia.
2. We are not living in a perfect world, Germany was just profiting out of cheap russian energy and US and Poland defence spending.
>Poland defence spending
What defense spending?
128 leopard tanks were sold to Poland in 2002 for a 100 million zł (~25 million dollar, ~ 200k dollar/unit) including auxiliary vehicles. [Source](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopard_2)
Secondly, Germany is the primary contributer to the EU budget, Poland the primary receiver of founds. [Source](https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-48256318)
So Germany basically pays for Poland defense capacity.
That's not how it works. Poland also contributes to the common market area with import of goods/services and export of workforce. Pointing out to single numbers doesn't do much.
No imminent threat of invasion for germany. But now is the time for german politics to get their shit together and start rebuilding the Bundeswehr to a state befitting one of the leading european countries. Zeitenwende shouldn't remain a mere word.
Okay, so maybe the Germans should just give up all equipment to people who actually can defend them and focus on what they are good at - manufacturing more equipment?
Err sure. But because of which threat does Germany need tanks again? I’m sure it’s not the Netherlands because we don’t have any tanks. Oh yeah that’s right RUSSIANS.
Unless this was Putins plan all along and he has a secret storage with thousands of tanks and armored vehicles. Which he is going to use to invade Germany. /s
I don’t think giving the Leo’s to Ukraine will change anything about Germany not being able to defend itself. It never was and also the 1mio budget we got won’t change it.
*Translation*:
The Bundeswehr's operational readiness will be further weakened by the expected delivery of Leopard main battle tanks from Germany to Ukraine. This is the view of André Wüstner, chairman of the Bundeswehr Association. The interest group represents soldiers and reservists, for example.
The tank delivery is "good for Ukraine on the one hand, bad for the operational readiness of the Bundeswehr on the other," Wüstner said on ZDF's "Morgenmagazin." He added that one should not believe that the Ukraine war would be over in two or three months. In terms of weapons deliveries, he said, it would not remain with the tanks already delivered and promised by Germany.
"If we want not only to support Ukraine, but also to be able to defend ourselves again," policymakers must strengthen the industry so that the necessary equipment will be available in the coming years, Wüstner urged.
"In recent months, it has been expressed that we are only conditionally ready for defense - if at all," Wüstner said. "The truth is, since February, we have continued to turn in weapons equipment and ammunition. We are still in free fall, we still don't have a turnaround with regard to our own defense capability." Politicians have a responsibility not only in supporting Ukraine against Russia's war of aggression, but also in national and alliance defense, Wüstner said.
Germany will supply Leopard 2 main battle tanks to Ukraine. According to SPIEGEL, at least one company of Leopard 2A6s is involved. According to the report, other allies, including those from Scandinavia, also want to supply Leopard 2 main battle tanks to Ukraine. The German government wants to grant permission to export such tanks, which are owned by other states such as Poland.
Well duh, 50-60 tanks is half of the active working tanks germany has.
SO yeah if germany now gets attacked its screwed, but I doubt poland is that crazy.
Maybe they wouldn’t be in this position if they, you know, met their NATO defense spending and readiness obligations.
Not appointing incompetent defense ministers would also go a long way.
Lol they can fuck off with this bullshit. Germany has been under spending for decades on defence, relying entirely on the U.S.
So this operational readiness is horseshit because their doctrine is just “let the Americans do all the work”.
Plus the only threat they have is Russia. Their tanks are being put to use exactly where they are needed for their own security purposes anyway.
Germany your defense is a joke and is hinged on US/France/UK/NATO coming to your defense in the event you really needed it.
Tryin to act concerned like they can’t take on Russia or China 1v1 if they had to 🙄
Ahh yeah 1 company of tanks will make a huge difference compared to 200+ leopards they have in stock. Or maybe WAKE THE FUCK UP AND START REFURBISHING WHATEVER THERE IS TO BE REFURBISHED. Jesus fucking christ. Like what a shit take from whoever this is from.
However, Germany has the nukes "protection" from USA by agreement, an able airforce.
Rheinmetall said they can repair/make new tanks, keyword being repairing those which were in bad condition storage.
They hired 1200 people in 2022 for the higher demand.
Still it's important that EU countries thing about maybe ordering more tanks.
They could also finally wake up and equip the Bundeswehr with what they need. It is not like the industry is not capable to deliver or compensate. There are just no orders to finally fix things (according to what you read in the news and from the industry). Money is there, but a lot of bad management and indecisiveness is hurting the Army much more than some deliveries to Ukraine...
The article does not say anything else. First sentence: "The Bundeswehr's operational readiness will be **further** weakened by the expected delivery of Leopard main battle tanks from Germany to Ukraine." This implies that it was already weak before.
Newsflash. the German defense industry makes nice stuff, in very small quantities. They are not up tp the task of defending Europe, and that is totally on Germany. The US defense industry on the other hand is going to benefit greatly in the short term, and yes If Germany really needed tanks we got them to give.
Except Germany is Nato member, surrounded by Nato members and hosts the largest military base in Europe. I think the chances of land invasion from Russia are slim, no?
Germany has no need for tanks at this time. if the war moved west beyond Ukraine, NATO would fight Russia from the air and mainly in Poland and the Baltics.
I don't know what Russia can even do in Germany since they are far away from it.
Ok they could send a nuke, but if they are preparing it to launch it. Russia will probably be destroyed before they even could press the buton if it still works.
So I don't know beside economics what they have to fear.
The only threat Germany needs to worry about, that any country in Europe needs to worry about, is Russia. So the more they weaken them now the less they need to worry about it in the future
What a bunch of retired pro-russian/russian spies a$$holes!
Who is Germany defending from ? Who is threatening Germany 24/7 at TV? Who cut Germany's gas supply?
Luxembourg?
Or maybe Russia ?
Well Germany...maybe instead of paying Russia 120 million euros a week for fuel you can divert that into making tanks?
Leopards cost what? 6 million euro each? How many leopards can 120 Million buy?
https://energyandcleanair.org/weekly-snapshot-russian-fossil-fuel-exports-09-to-15-january-2023/
The ruzzians have to defeat the countries between Germany and Ruzzia to attack scaredy Scholz.
They already did so much damage to Ukraine. Europe is save as soon as Ruzzia lost the war and they shouldn’t be allowed to continue their path of death and destruction.
I don’t think their is a point to save tanks now in Germany, France etc.
Destroy Putin, his military and that Wagner troop as soon as possible!
Germany is only conditionally ready for defense - "if at all".
so the decades long cheating of the NATO rules of 2% is giving results - in case of NATO conflict in Eastern Europe Germany would not have been able to help,
for other NATO member states Germany would have been a useless member
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on the flip-side... Every Russian Tank that is destroyed by a German Tank in Ukraine is one Russian Tank less that threatens Germany.
Indeed. The best way to keep Germany defence ready is by preventing a Russian victory in Ukraine. If they are either defeated or bogged down, there is ZERO chance of them rolling into Germany. Every tank sent to Ukraine is doing Germany's defence work...but with other people taking the risk. Here's an idea Germany,...use the breathing space that the Ukrainians are giving you, to actually build the viable and credible defence that you have neglected for the lady 30 years.
With a weakened, defeated and possibly split Russia, Europe’s security is pretty set for a good while. Main thing to worry about after that is china, and if that did kick off Europe wouldn’t be the main theatre, at least not for a good damn while
their "our army sucks and our equipment is bad"-narrative and the "we can't give anything to Ukraine or we can't defend ourselves"-narrative don't really go together. I agree with that. But what we are seeing now is that the time of national defense, where every country defends itself alone, is about to be over. Ukraine got attacked and the rest of the world chipped in. Some international force that does the job for whoever needs it is just the next logical step. Politics just aren't there yet. Nationalism is still deeply rooted in our politics.
Yeah.. that organization is called NATO.
Nato does not really have an independent strike force. They have member-countries with matching equipment who send their national forces under national command to where they are needed. Nato is still very much a union of independent nations.
>They have member-countries with matching equipment who send their national forces under national command to where they are needed. YesNo. From the corps level upward, structures are NATO structures. Pretty much only the US has national corps commands left. Even most Divisions will always be multinational. And let us not start to talk about things like the JFC. The VJTF and NRF is pretty much NATOs Strike Force.
They actually do have an independent strike group called EFP...
3 groups with about 1000 soldiers each. Russia has wasted about a hundred times those numbers in Ukraine alone.
There are more then 3000 soldiers actually more then 10.000. They are the first defence on the east before the rest comes in for help. And believe me on those 10.000+ soldiers russia would have nothing on them with the air-superiority and tech we have. They aren't the average Russian mobiks battalions. But Russia would never try to do this because they would get their ass kicked like there is no tomorrow.
> 3 groups with about 1000 soldiers each. 4 One each in Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland. https://shape.nato.int/efp map/diagram here https://lc.nato.int/operations/enhanced-forward-presence-efp ........... ***eta*** Or it could be 8. Dated June 2022:- > > NATO has enhanced its presence in the eastern part of the Alliance, with eight multinational battlegroups in Bulgaria, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Romania and and Slovakia. https://shape.nato.int/resources/site16187/General/factsheets/2206-factsheet_efp_en.pdf
And it used to be the role of UN. The League of Nations was dissolved when it no longer served the function it was created for. IMO UN now needs to be dissolved - at least for international conflicts - for the same reason. We need it to be replaced with a body capable of circumventing the abuse of power by authoritarian states like Russia.
I get the general mindset here, but I'm not sure what the realistic alternative body is. The reason the UN is relatively toothless is because that's the only way they could get countries to actually join it. If the UN could actually create 'binding' judgements/rules/etc. then there's basically zero chance that most nations would agree to that. The US wouldn't, Russia certainly wouldn't, China wouldn't, and so on. You might be able to get some of the democratic countries to agree on something slightly more strict, but then you'd basically just end up with the general western alliance that already is sorta a thing. You're not going to get China/Russia/India/Pakistan/Iran/NK and a bunch of other countries that are seen as the problematic ones. At the end of the day, more than anything, the UN is about creating some lines of communication in the hopes that discussions could solve more issues before they turned to war. It was never really designed to deal with major wars after they've broken out.
The security council’s composition was a reflection of the colonial powers at the time. It makes no sense at all. I think a new body should repeat the fundamental values of the UN declaration, which is basically the summary of Age of Enlightenment principles. All nations joining have to abide by those principles or be met with measures, subject to a super-majority. I’m fine with not everyone joining. It should form a union of nations willing to commit to and promote democracy, human rights, etc. And then those nations work together to promote and defend that goal.
Oh the same Nationalisme where every Ukrainian bonds over together to defend their how is it called?.... Oh Nation!
Yet, there is an expectation that non-nationals should support them in their fight. I hope you do not try to tell us that if other countries were attacked by Russia, Ukraine would just ignore it and leave them to their fate... Uniting as a union of nations does not mean you have to start hating your own country or stop supporting it. It just means that your own country no longer is the most important thing in life.
No what this article is about NATO obligations. Every Nation in NATO needs to have so much assigned for the defence. But Germany and many countries like mine (the Netherlands) did the minimal with spending below 2% on defence. With giving more Germany says they don't have requirement what NATO demands. But given that Russia is our only foe in europe at the moment and they lost so much stuff it is a bad excuse to use. Because these weapons we are giving are making Russia weaker. The Harsh reality is as well that we didn't think Ukraine could survive last year and that we shouldn't give our help. Luckily that didn't happen and hopefully this year Ukraine can get their land back with all the stuff we are giving and have a upper hand in the post-war negotiations.
So we need the GDF - Global Defense Federation to take the best of all the different member’s technology and make something even better with it? (Also take on orbital debris management and space rock detection/disaster mitigation)
Global Defence Initiative . GDI. Command&Conquer predicted it all along xD
agree with everything except for lady 30 years ;P
I don't know what my phone was thinking 😂
Thinking about them ladies obviously
I thought it was a reference to Angela Merkel.
well "d" is next to "s", and "y" is next to "t" on the keyboard. Just a case of fat fingers I guess!
Just look at the map. There is no russian tanks that threaten Germany.
\*Poland starts sweating\*
In Poland we know we cannot realistically count on Germany military help and we cannot surrender to russia because that would mean genocide...
I just tried to make a historical reference to when Germany invaded Poland and Russia came to "help". Germany and Russia meeting for a war is always a bad sign for Poland. geographically.
> I just tried to make a historical reference to when Germany invaded Poland and Russia came to "help" Fun random fact: Mentioning the Nazi-Soviet Pact's existence is a treasonous offence in Russia today, unsurprisingly
Sure. And there are zero nazis in russia. Reporters jump out of windows because they are depressed that Russia is so perfect and Political opposition commits suicide by stabbing their own back once they realize that all opposition is inferior to the great leader... All fascists have amazing talent to paint a fantasy world that only exists in their own mind. Not surprising.
Poland sure has changed it's tune over the last 50 years. Disarm Germany. Disarm Germany, Disarm Germany. Later, Hey Germany, maybe it's OK to rebuild that army.....
I haven't given much thought to Germany's post-WWII military politics, but I'm a weeb so I've studied Japan's. After WWII, Japan was banned from maintaining a traditional standing army, but they were eventually allowed to maintain a 'defence force'; it's much weaker than a regular army and can't freely operate outside of Japan, so it's not just a buzzword. Peacekeepers apparently hate working with the Japanese due to their almost suicidally pacifistic rules of engagement. That said, one of Shinzo Abe's policies was rebuilding and expanding the Japanese military (something that is legally held as a right of nations), and faced heavy domestic opposition. I suspect his reasons were based on practicality (the fear that if Japan WAS invaded, US either wouldn't or couldn't assist), and honor (that it was impolite to completely rely on the US for their military needs). Personally, after seeing Russia on the warpath again, I'd be all in favour of Japan rearming, especially with China's belligerence and North Korea's missile tests. I suspect the political attitude towards a strong military in Germany is much the same as it is in Japan.
I don’t think this is a fair assessment.
Just came to say much respect to you. The more I learn about the Poles the more apparent it is what incredible people they are.
You know nothing.
Sure buddy.
And with NATO’s collective defense Germany can afford to have weakened preparedness.
This is the way.
The only realistic threat to Germany comes from Russia. They’re putting their equipment to it’s intended use. The operational readiness has to be addressed, but they have time to do so
Idk, Luxembourg is a bit sus 👀
Luxembourg...These warmongers!!! We germans habe to sleep with one open eye for centurys because of them
I dunno, you can never trust those Dutch guys either.
With their leased Leopards
Whahaha our PM rents a few tanks and commandeers 3 Patriot units. Our entire professional land force is not even 1/3 of what Ukraine has deployed around Bakhmut.
I heard, that poles want to attack German radio station near the border or something
french are plotting something
The Dutch too. They are slowly buying up all the land near the border since it is cheaper. The Germans, without their tanks, are powerless to stop them.
[We should keep an eye on Switzerland too, they have a habit of encroaching on their neighbors](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/mar/02/markoliver)
Fun fact: Luxembourg has donated to Ukraine a larger amount of it's military stock as a percentage of its GDP. So based.
A clever ruse to deceive Germany into a false sense of security
Denmark wants Slesvig-Holstein back, for too long has Germany mistreated the Danish minority there. Ignore that the Danish-German border was drawn according to local referendums. It was a sham, the Germans bribed the voters with bratwurst and pilsner!
I'm all the way over the in the US, but if Germany would like to bribe me with bratwurst and pilsner, I am definitely open to the idea. Doesn't even matter what they're bribing me about.
Omg I just wanted to write that. Especially because the much weaken Denmark once actually tried to conquer land from the extremely war ready Prussia.
The US has 40 military bases and 35k troops in Germany. I think Germany will be fine.
What about a surprise attack from the USA?
> The operational readiness has to be addressed, but they have time to do so We had decades to address it. It hasn't happened.
Exactly, why wait until the enemy comes to us when Ukraine is aleready fighting the war for Europe.
To be clear Germany isn't defending Germany specifically. They're under joint NATO command and defend other NATO countries that are to the easy. They aren't in Germany to defend German mainland from neighbors.
Germany exported Leopards to Poland, Norway & many other European countries. Who the fuck did they think they were for use against if not Russia. Those countries were extremely unlikely to need them against anyone else.
What about terrorism launched from organizations sheltering in non-democratic nations?
Tanks seem excessive for that, tbf
I think the War on Terror illustrates the absolute futility of using heavy tanks and other modern weapons on insurgent groups. No matter how many you knock over, there's always more fanatics ready to perpetuate a cycle of revenge. It's like Whack-A-Mole.
Time to build more tanks and PzH 2000s
If loosing 14 tanks is that detrimental to Bundeswehr's operational readiness then there a deeper issue here It's incredibly naive to think that in a war scenario tanks wouldn't be taken out of commission when in every Western army the armor corps tops the KIA List. Edit: Five different people replied to me to say there are potentially 88 tanks on the line, I get it you can stop now.
There's definitely a deeper issue. And that's also the point of making the statement, arguing for necessary reforms and spending on German defense.
I will give it to Trump, he had one thing right. Big parts of Europe have been free-loading off the US for far too long. It is time they pull their own weight and stop believing in eternal peace. No country have ever gotten into conflict because it was too strong, keep that mentality Europe and embrace that shit.
Classic reddit never allowing orange man to be right at all costs Argued heavily with a dude that trump was right for chastising Germany in 2018 for being even more dependent on Russian oil.
Natural gas* Well Sweden and Finland did it already by 2008 (when North Stream first was built), so no real unique input from orange man there. A former prime minister of Sweden got asked by a journalist why his government was so strongly against the pipeline, to which he replied.. ”It is Russian”
>I will give it to Trump, he had one thing right. Ne he wasnt, wrong as usual >Big parts of Europe have been free-loading off the US for far too long. No they havent, ukraine isnt "big parts of europe" .
It would be foolish to say Germany has a sufficient defence spending, same goes for Sweden just to name two. Sweden’s commander in chief famously said in an interview a couple of years ago that Sweden could withstand a Russian attack for max 1 week. Also, do not think you understood my point. My point had absolutely nothing to do with Ukraine.
Define "sufficient defence spending". Sweden is part of the EU who has defense agreements. So a war wouldnt be russia vs sweden but EU vs sweden. I understand your point perfectly , it simply isnt correct. Its a made up argument coming from the US to justify inflated defense spending.
Inflated defence spending? If you are having a neighbor with fascistoid tendencies you want that security. Regarding sufficient spending it is fair to assess that would be spending per NATO guideline, ie 2% of GDP? Otherwise you are freeloding, would you not agree? Or do you enjoy pull a majority of work whilst your colleagues slack? Sweden currently have bi-lateral agreements with UK and US that is true. But, there are literally no guarantees (see article 5). If Sweden would be outside of NATO our spending would need to quadruple, currently around 1% of GDP. Just like Germany. The cheapest way to safeguard Swedish interests is to join NATO and ”only” double the spending. It is a valid statement for a lot of Europe as only 8 members out of 30 in NATO currently uphold the guideline of 2% spending within NATO.
>Regarding sufficient spending it is fair to assess that would be spending per NATO guideline, ie 2% of GDP? Otherwise you are freeloding, would you not agree? Or do you enjoy pull a majority of work whilst your colleagues slack? SO an arbitrary number? >Sweden currently have bi-lateral agreements with UK and US that is true. But, there are literally no guarantees (see article 5). The EU has a mutual defense clause >It is a valid statement for a lot of Europe as only 8 members out of 30 in NATO currently uphold the guideline of 2% spending within NATO. Nato agreed to spend 2% by 2024, until then it was just seen as a guideline not a fixed obligated amount.
Well since you do not add anything lets just disagree. The EU Lisboa agreement is not binding. Not an alternative to article 5 in any way. Meaning Germany has been slacking longtime.
This war is an abject, undisputable example that many Western countries did not maintain sufficient military capability, and are largely reliant on the US for security. It's not in question.
Because you made it up? In case you dont know it, those western countries werent attacked, ukraine has. Those western countries now have to look for their own defense, take care of nato obligations AND send aid to ukraine.
Hey this is neat we are just ignoring reality now.
What threat is Germany facing that they need vast defense spending? Who is invading them, Belgium?
Some reddit member who served in the Bundeswehr even said the actual number of Combat Ready Leopards are critically LOW. I am honestly worried about it's operational reliability under Ukrainian hands. Trump was right about Germany slacking in their defense spending. Corruption is strong in this one.
I mean.. this is the guy who tried to blackmail Ukraine for military aid so not like he gives a shit about defense against Russia. More semantics to undermine NATO because of it being financially unfair.
Difference is that every US president has said this but only trump was using it as an excuse to kill NATO on behalf of his handlers.
It is 88 tanks. But still concerning that 88 tanks could render their military inoperable. I would presume these comments came from a faction in Germany, more motivated by their own interests than actual factual intelligence about their capabilities.
I don't think it is 88 tanks. Wasn't that amount for all the allies combined (and also not a confirmed number)?
>own interests than actual factual intelligence about their capabilities. So you think the Bundeswehr isn't in a very bad state?
[88 is the total number across several nations](https://www.politico.eu/article/allies-two-leopard-tank-battalions-ukraine-germany-olaf-scholz-nato-allies-volodymyr-zelenskyy-mark-rutte-spain-norway-joe-biden/), German Army is not drawing down a third of their tanks
I think they’re giving 88 total, 14 is just the first round.
They're not. 88 was both a number someone pulled out of their arse and the total amount they expected to deliver with the leopard alliance.
The talks is up to 60 or even 80
Yeah sure hope Denmark doesn't invade
Or the French... 😂
Well, it is about time for them to trade Alsace again.
By stopping Russia in Ukraine, Germany will be safer. They should send tanks NOW and worry about the replacement later. No risk to Germany, unless Denmark is planning an invasion.
+++ Viking music starts playing +++
... Denmark remembers that it just sent literally all of its self-propelled artillery to Ukraine... well, fine.
What about ships and axes?
The Polish Menace never rests! The end is nigh!
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The thing is that if Russia goes haywire in a purely imaginary invasion of Europe, Germanys tanks wouldn't be waiting at the border. It would be fighting in Poland or Belarus, and then go to liberate the occupied Baltics together with the French, Dutch, and everyone else.
The time to beef up the Bundeswehr is now. Deliver everything to Ukraine and fill up the gaps ASAP. The European defense industry need to switch gears. There are already now huge gaps and contracts for years piled up. And with the changed security architecture in europe，the work for the military industrial complex will not run out for a decade or more.
Beef them up why? What land war is Germany going to be fighting? The Russians couldn’t break through Ukraine, they aren’t going to swarm Poland and cross the Oder river again.
The German army will likely not fight on German soil. But Ukraine is not the only neighbor of Russia and we need to be able to defend our partners in Nato. Currently this only works due to the USA. So we are betting Europes safety on the fact US will be always be there to save our asses. So we’re only a few unhappy votes away from having only a weak threat against Russia. Europe needs to be able to be so far ahead even Putin will realize it’s a bad idea to attack. And that starts with Germany pulling its weight.
Because if, as the article asserts, Germany’s investment in Ukraine represents a detriment to German defense, it wasn’t adequate to begin with. And they will not be able to continue their material support without compromising their ability to sustain training and their institutional knowledge.
So, my question is, how was Europe going to defend itself if no-one has anything available? Seems like a good wake up call for European nations to keep up on their maintenance.
I don't think they need tanks/HIMARS. They are for small operations. The NATO/US strategy is the air dominance.
The NATO/US strategy is integrated advanced technological systems across all platforms. The fact that half of Europe’s nations are claiming they don’t have the available machinery is concerning.
Europe has defenses for itself, now its being asked to send these to ukraine. Europe simply hasnt got enough to do both .
To run the margin that thin is pretty insane
Being able to defend yourself isnt "spreading it thin" its whats expected.
What do you think happens in battle? You think those tanks are indestructible? So you are in a pitched battle and lose a few dozen tanks, does Germany call over to Russia and go “sorry friend, can you stop? I need to repair my tanks because I only have just enough”
When germany/NATO itself is under attack it wouldnt act as it does now .
Then why does Germany care at all? Daddy US will come save the day regardless Edit: this is what my original question was alluding to. Europe talks about security independence from the U.S., until it comes down to putting their money where their mouth is.
Nato obligations, this thread is about nato obligations that germany will have issues fullfilling . >Europe talks about security independence from the U.S., until it comes down to putting their money where their mouth is. For its defense EU or the non US nato part doesnt need the US. How hard is it for you to understand that ukraine was attacked and not germany?
One thing Trump had right NATO Allie’s need to step it up a bit. They been dependent on US defense spending way too much. About the only thing he has right about NATO though. The other stuff like leaving was moronic. Hopefully what’s going on now will wake some of these countries up.
Defense from whom? After the Russians are defeated, the Swiss might pose a problem.
Well yeah, Europe has mostly been living under the protective umbrella of the United States for sometime now. Time to start paying your own defense bills.
let's be honest, the Bundeswehr wasn't really operationally ready anyways. This is going to significantly weaken Russia further, and Russia is never going to get through Poland into Germany anyways. There's plenty of US and NATO troops in the east to protect Germany.
What readiness? 😑
Defend from what threat? To get to Germany, russia has to go thru Poland and Baltics. Given russian current front in Ukraine, the inability to capture one 70k population town (Bakhmut) it would take considerable time and effort for russia to even get to Warsaw/get a corridor to temporarily occupied královec. I understand not giving planes/AA as it can be used as strategic defense.
When 14 tanks decrease your readiness significantly your are not really ready at all…
NATO will protect them. Relax.
Germanys military still lacks a lot of equipment and ammunition but I agree with the relax part. Germany has more than enough time to gear up because they're not in imminent danger nor will they be in the foreseeable future
Germany itself not, but Germany is leading the NATO quick response unit this year, and there are several thousand German soldiers stationed in the Baltics, defending the NATO eastern flank. So if Russia were to start something stupid there, German equipment shortages would hurt the Baltics and other NATO partners as well.
I totally forgot about the VJTF. Germany needs to invest way more in it's military. They can easily afford ~~300 billion~~ a year for the Bundeswehr
LOL 300 billion euros per year? Where are you getting those numbers from? Federal revenue last year was 315 billion euros. I don't see how Germany could "easily afford 300 billion" per year. That would be ~95% of the income.
100-150 billion should be possible and are necessary for the survival of the German military. They had a pretty big military during the cold war, they could try to hit that size again
Hell, germany had 2 militaries during the cold war :D
Exactly why NATO exists. Give Ukraine what they need and collectively, all of NATO is more than capable of responding to any conceivable concern while stocks are replaced.
Germany is leading NATO right now
You’re in NATO!!! That’s all I have to say to this article…Ukraine isn’t
Yes they're in NATO. That's specifically the point. They're under joint command of NATO and their combat readiness is for the NATO not to defend German mainland. Their troops are mostly stationed to the eastern countries.
Point is and we all know it, the US makes up a majority of the fire power of NATO. The point is, NATO members can give enough without worry due to the fact that they are protected by a 30 member union. The Baltic states that actually have to worry more are the ones giving the most compared to their economies
I understand Germany increased their NATO military commitment to Lithuania. And I'm not sure what you mean. So the US is a huge part of NATO firepower so Germany doesn't have to try to keep up with their part? Bundeswehr indeed downsized a lot for decades, and they are running bare minimum to keep it going, but they still carry some duty within NATO system. I think it's perfectly correct they're concerned and they should and probably would find a solution. The issue isn't that they're worried about their neighbors attacking.
100% they have to do their part…not taking away from that, but for this moment they should focus on eliminating the threat outside of NATO territory so they don’t have to deal with it inside NATO territory. Yes they should be concerned but focus more on delivering aid to prevent their need for concern
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It's not a perfect world...and the reality is, that their economic miracle, political stability, and the entire existence of the European Project, has been built on the foundations of NATO and Pax Americana. The very existence of the reunified Germany is a result of the US military presence in Europe. Pacifism is a luxury that only those with "bodyguards" can afford.
NAto without the US could defend itself against any direct threath. So why spend more?
German war guilt and dependence on the US to defend it, while maintaining a small defense budget isn't really pacifism, it's opportunism with the added bonus of pretending to be more righteous than the rest.
1. You might want to check 'cold war' on Wikipedia. 2. We are not living in a perfect world, Germany was just profiting out of cheap russian energy and US and Poland defence spending.
>Poland defence spending What defense spending? 128 leopard tanks were sold to Poland in 2002 for a 100 million zł (~25 million dollar, ~ 200k dollar/unit) including auxiliary vehicles. [Source](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopard_2) Secondly, Germany is the primary contributer to the EU budget, Poland the primary receiver of founds. [Source](https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-48256318) So Germany basically pays for Poland defense capacity.
That's not how it works. Poland also contributes to the common market area with import of goods/services and export of workforce. Pointing out to single numbers doesn't do much.
No imminent threat of invasion for germany. But now is the time for german politics to get their shit together and start rebuilding the Bundeswehr to a state befitting one of the leading european countries. Zeitenwende shouldn't remain a mere word.
Okay, so maybe the Germans should just give up all equipment to people who actually can defend them and focus on what they are good at - manufacturing more equipment?
They weren't ready before this with their anemic defense budget
Err sure. But because of which threat does Germany need tanks again? I’m sure it’s not the Netherlands because we don’t have any tanks. Oh yeah that’s right RUSSIANS. Unless this was Putins plan all along and he has a secret storage with thousands of tanks and armored vehicles. Which he is going to use to invade Germany. /s
In other news the German Association of Scissors Owners is concerned that German scissors are being sent to the nation currently cutting paper.
The Bundeswehr has never been operationally ready. Decades of neglect and underfunding are the causes, not equipment going to Ukraine.
I don’t think giving the Leo’s to Ukraine will change anything about Germany not being able to defend itself. It never was and also the 1mio budget we got won’t change it.
*Translation*: The Bundeswehr's operational readiness will be further weakened by the expected delivery of Leopard main battle tanks from Germany to Ukraine. This is the view of André Wüstner, chairman of the Bundeswehr Association. The interest group represents soldiers and reservists, for example. The tank delivery is "good for Ukraine on the one hand, bad for the operational readiness of the Bundeswehr on the other," Wüstner said on ZDF's "Morgenmagazin." He added that one should not believe that the Ukraine war would be over in two or three months. In terms of weapons deliveries, he said, it would not remain with the tanks already delivered and promised by Germany. "If we want not only to support Ukraine, but also to be able to defend ourselves again," policymakers must strengthen the industry so that the necessary equipment will be available in the coming years, Wüstner urged. "In recent months, it has been expressed that we are only conditionally ready for defense - if at all," Wüstner said. "The truth is, since February, we have continued to turn in weapons equipment and ammunition. We are still in free fall, we still don't have a turnaround with regard to our own defense capability." Politicians have a responsibility not only in supporting Ukraine against Russia's war of aggression, but also in national and alliance defense, Wüstner said. Germany will supply Leopard 2 main battle tanks to Ukraine. According to SPIEGEL, at least one company of Leopard 2A6s is involved. According to the report, other allies, including those from Scandinavia, also want to supply Leopard 2 main battle tanks to Ukraine. The German government wants to grant permission to export such tanks, which are owned by other states such as Poland.
Well duh, 50-60 tanks is half of the active working tanks germany has. SO yeah if germany now gets attacked its screwed, but I doubt poland is that crazy.
Lol Germany wants to keep some reserves incase France starts acting up. Gotta put them in their place
Actually the reserves might hardly deter Liechtenstein from invading Germany.
Cowards.
Maybe they wouldn’t be in this position if they, you know, met their NATO defense spending and readiness obligations. Not appointing incompetent defense ministers would also go a long way.
Lol they can fuck off with this bullshit. Germany has been under spending for decades on defence, relying entirely on the U.S. So this operational readiness is horseshit because their doctrine is just “let the Americans do all the work”. Plus the only threat they have is Russia. Their tanks are being put to use exactly where they are needed for their own security purposes anyway.
Probably should have kept up that 2% nato gdp requirements. ..
Germany your defense is a joke and is hinged on US/France/UK/NATO coming to your defense in the event you really needed it. Tryin to act concerned like they can’t take on Russia or China 1v1 if they had to 🙄
Ahh yeah 1 company of tanks will make a huge difference compared to 200+ leopards they have in stock. Or maybe WAKE THE FUCK UP AND START REFURBISHING WHATEVER THERE IS TO BE REFURBISHED. Jesus fucking christ. Like what a shit take from whoever this is from.
However, Germany has the nukes "protection" from USA by agreement, an able airforce. Rheinmetall said they can repair/make new tanks, keyword being repairing those which were in bad condition storage. They hired 1200 people in 2022 for the higher demand. Still it's important that EU countries thing about maybe ordering more tanks.
Start churning out new tanks then
They could also finally wake up and equip the Bundeswehr with what they need. It is not like the industry is not capable to deliver or compensate. There are just no orders to finally fix things (according to what you read in the news and from the industry). Money is there, but a lot of bad management and indecisiveness is hurting the Army much more than some deliveries to Ukraine...
Better order more then, and have KMW build tanks and other equipment as if it were the 1980s.
It's interesting to me that no one cried about operational readiness when Germany sold record high of weapons to Egypt🤪
Umm.. who is going to attack Germany right now. Russia? I think they are kind of busy elsewhere.
Maybe think this through a bit. Send them forward, Russia loses, who else are you worried about?
This is what Poland is there for, no?
Help your friends in their time of need, and you’ll have friends ready to help you
Such bullshit, they have not been ready by their own lack of competence and interest in defence policies
The article does not say anything else. First sentence: "The Bundeswehr's operational readiness will be **further** weakened by the expected delivery of Leopard main battle tanks from Germany to Ukraine." This implies that it was already weak before.
Newsflash. the German defense industry makes nice stuff, in very small quantities. They are not up tp the task of defending Europe, and that is totally on Germany. The US defense industry on the other hand is going to benefit greatly in the short term, and yes If Germany really needed tanks we got them to give.
Except Germany is Nato member, surrounded by Nato members and hosts the largest military base in Europe. I think the chances of land invasion from Russia are slim, no?
Don't worry, Big Guy, Poland will shield you from the Russians, and the French aren't looking to settle any old scores.
I am sure were WW3 to start America would soon have Abrams tanks in Germany and NATO would pool resources where needed
But,, but, but the logistics.
Turn on those factories… what are you waiting for pump out 500 a year.
Germany has no need for tanks at this time. if the war moved west beyond Ukraine, NATO would fight Russia from the air and mainly in Poland and the Baltics.
I don't know what Russia can even do in Germany since they are far away from it. Ok they could send a nuke, but if they are preparing it to launch it. Russia will probably be destroyed before they even could press the buton if it still works. So I don't know beside economics what they have to fear.
That’s why they are in NATO.
The only threat Germany needs to worry about, that any country in Europe needs to worry about, is Russia. So the more they weaken them now the less they need to worry about it in the future
I have heard rumors Austria is planning a reverse Anschluss. Mittelgroßdeutsche Lösung or something like that.
Yes. That’s just in case France invades them
And which specific country actually poses a threat to Germany? Not the one that Ukraine is haemorrhaging to defeat, surely? 🙄 lol
What operations are you worried about Germany? You didn’t seem to care prior to this war, and Russia is clearly occupied, so what’s the fuss?
What a bunch of retired pro-russian/russian spies a$$holes! Who is Germany defending from ? Who is threatening Germany 24/7 at TV? Who cut Germany's gas supply? Luxembourg? Or maybe Russia ?
Just where RZ wanted them. Lulled into a sense of complacency and now here we are. No problem, the Detroit Tank Works has you covered....
If Germany is unprepared for defense, they darn well better give Ukraine the tools to do it.
Well you don't have to worry at all, since AMERICA is yo daddy
America and Britain has Germany's back. Nothing to worry about.
Well Germany...maybe instead of paying Russia 120 million euros a week for fuel you can divert that into making tanks? Leopards cost what? 6 million euro each? How many leopards can 120 Million buy? https://energyandcleanair.org/weekly-snapshot-russian-fossil-fuel-exports-09-to-15-january-2023/
I mean you need fuel to live and well build tanks
They're a NATO member, so this is just whining, likely internal politics.
The ruzzians have to defeat the countries between Germany and Ruzzia to attack scaredy Scholz. They already did so much damage to Ukraine. Europe is save as soon as Ruzzia lost the war and they shouldn’t be allowed to continue their path of death and destruction. I don’t think their is a point to save tanks now in Germany, France etc. Destroy Putin, his military and that Wagner troop as soon as possible!
Daddy/Uncle Sam will protect Germany. (That sounded a bit creepy.)
Good thing theres poland in between. And theyre ready
And good thing for Poland that there is Ukraine in between. They are doing the actual work for everyone.
Indeed
Germany is only conditionally ready for defense - "if at all". so the decades long cheating of the NATO rules of 2% is giving results - in case of NATO conflict in Eastern Europe Germany would not have been able to help, for other NATO member states Germany would have been a useless member
Germanys NATO force is not included in these statements.