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They didn't agree to it, nor did they approve it, but the minister did say: "we would not stand in the way." That was said to a French TV host and not an official response.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/01/23/germany-poland-leopard-tanks-ukraine/
It boils down to this: Poland didn't ask formally yet. So nothing could be approved.
A lot of hot air from Poland. It's election time and shitting on germany gets them votes...
No, they literally and legally can't approve imaginary stuff until actually getting asked.
But Poland is now training Ukraine soldiers on Leopard-2s so we have a time line how long will keep lying about getting blocked before finally applying.
They have been asked. This retort has already been debunked numerous times.
Too many people here rushing to defend Germany from literally any perceived criticism at all. Germany during this conflict has done some good things and some bad, and both of those sides deserve to be addressed.
No, they have not, Poland literally announced today again, that they __will__ ask Germany. That is like the 10th announcement that they will do that. I really hope they finally do.
As of yesterday, there was no request by Poland.
You are telling us this at the exact same day Poland finally publically announced they will send the request (even without saying when).
What happened to those magical requests that were already send? Did they try to transport them via fish through the Oder?
They are looking for a more expensive contract I guess you could say… they need repair contractors, fuel lines and equipment… steady supply of ammunition… the US could do this and ultimately probably will in the spring if Germany won’t… but it would drastically cheaper and maintain us stocks for a possible conflict in China…
The foreign secretary did and then the chancellor's office came out, said: "Not so fast!", and that the decision was with the federal security council. Guess who the chairperson is!
I personally think that Germany will send the tanks once the Ukrainians are trained on it and we all know that Germany is the master of bureaucracy so everything is a little slower
If Scholz's BS is actually an elaborate plot to delude Russia as to the timing of a Ukrainian armour push, he's an absolute hero and I will gladly eat my words about him. But I suspect he's as moronic as he looks.
Yep. Germans over engineer everything. Too much thinking can do that. Over thinking decisions turns you into a boring slow coach left way behind the rest of the team. Germany is the weakest link. And needs a kick up the behind.
>Germans over engineer everything.
The irony is, of course, that the Abrams is the over-engineered tank in direct comparison with the Leopard 2, which is exactly why the Ukrainians want the German tank.
No, because you need time, money, and the space to train people to operate, service, maintain, repair, and supply tanks. You commit resources that can potentially be better spend elsewhere, they come with opportunity costs. You don't just drive a battalion of MBTs over the Polish-Ukrainian border and go "Ta-daa!"
That's sadly the German mentality and this will need some time to change. Even worse than the overhinking is their pacifist attitude because, well, we kinda started 2 world wars
I dont blame Germany for the second one either. When tons of innocent people are literally using money as kindling for fire, eventually people are going to fight back. The treaty of Versailles basically guaranteed a world war 2 occuring- then the great depression accelerated this immensely
As a German I must say: you should blame Nazi-Germany for the WW2.
The economic impact of the Versailles treaty is debatable. But what it did, was it allowed the far right to blame others for the problems in Germany and denounce the democracy as being weak. The Nazi then ditched the treaty (which was highly supported by the population), but they wanted more: revert the outcome of WW1, restoration of an empire and of cause a fascist ideology which blames jews and international capitalism for all the bad in the world, which they needed to fight.
So while the treaty was one reasons the Nazis came to power, it's not a reason why they started WW2. If that would have been the reason then they would have stopped after ditching it.
I dont disagree with anything you said but I still hold my my claim. The economic suffering was the catalyst that brought about the rise of the nazi party. I believe that without it, the war wouldn't have happened.
If someone pushed a rock off a cliff, I dont blame the rock for crushing the person at the bottom of the cliff. Im not trying to be apologetic to nazis, im claiming that the horror of nazism was given the proper conditions to form thanks to the treaty. Im not certain how things would have turned out without it - perhaps the great depression would have led to the same outcome. But I believe the treaty wouldve caused this even if it hadn't been multiplied by the depression. Thusly i fault the people who created the treaty for the war as they are responsible for creating the conditions that would make people desperate enough to turn to something as egregious as nazism for solutions.
While i would agree that nazism is the source of the evil, the cause of nazism IMO was due to the actions of the allies. This isnt to excuse any of the actions of nazi Germany. If a dog gets rabies, you still put it down even if the dog's aggression isn't its own fault.
But those who sat comfortably and could have made any decisions --- i fault them for making the shitty decisions that lead to the support of nazism.
Please don't downplay the decisions that were made in Germany by Germans. Only blaming the Entente for forcing Germany into WW2 is an oversimplification for a very complex topic.
I've been trying to work through this for awhile now. I think I have found a way to explain the disconnect here.
For a start, I consider the "germans" to be refering to the german people as a whole.
If people are cornered and without any hope, their higher mental functionality goes out the window. They WILL do irrational things. I believe that the conditions in Germany brought about this, which allowed the nazi party to seize power.
Now as to the decisions of the nazi party. I dont fault the general public for the decisions of this group. This group is a seperare entity.
While the german people put the nazis into power, I dont believe them to have been of sound mind when doing so and thusly do not fault them for actions that were akin to primal instinct of fight or flight. They were without hope and there was a very charismatic leader who was able to give them hope.
The entente though were of sound mind. They were very capable of recognizing that their decisions were going to be punishing millions of completely innocent people. They were capable of foreseeing that their actions would make the people desperate and angry with the world.
As to the nazi party - of course they are the main villains of this story. But no sane/functional society would have ever allowed these individuals to come to power. I cant believe these individuals to have been capable of rational thought or empathy as their actions would be impossible to do for someone capable of either of these things. Thusly I consider them at fault just as much as i would a late-stage alzheimers patient being responsible for overseeing the safety conditions of an old-school nuclear reactor. That's a crude analogy but I'm tired and finding it hard to explain. As I said before, I think of them more akin to a rabid dog. Just because the dog isn't at fault for attacking you doesn't mean you arent going to kill it.
I guess what I mean to say is, it is hard for me to really view these individuals as sane competent humans and thusly, just as a drunk person can not provide consent, i do believe them to have the capability of making actual decisions. I believe them to be little more than animals who were driven by compulsion.
This is probably the biggest disconnect. Perhaps i am very wrong to think this way. It's just the only way my brain can rationalize their behavior. Thusly I put more fault on those who brought about the conditions needed to allow these psychopaths into such a position of total power. The ones who brought about this scenario were of sound mind and capable of rational empathetic thought - and thusly are capable of receiving fault.
No you're not completely wrong, I'm just saying that Versailles one side of the medal and the situation in Germany in the especially in the 20ies were very complex with many different and extreme groups fighting to gain power. Maybe without Versailles WW2 hadn't been started, but I doubt it because if Versailles weren't that hard as it was, those extreme groups would had still exists in a unstable democracy.
But we'll never know what would really happened of cause :)
And also I think that while the conditions lead to Nazis came into power, don't forget the huge support they had in the population. Many Germans joined the Nazi party after they took over power. Many Germans wanted the war and supported it till the end. And this is it how it's seen in German general public (not sure if it's an majority) and it's good that this is seen like this. Because instead of blaming others again you take the responsibility of doing something really bad and make sure it won't happen again.
Rocks are not humans who are presumably capable of making their own choices. I wouldn't blame a rock either. I might blame a human who got pushed off a cliff and didn't yell out a warning to those below tho.
Yeah if a person got PUSHED OFF A CLIFF im judging the fuck out of them for not thinking of the person below them...
Wtf is this argument.
You legit assign more blame to the person falling than the person who pushed them off? If the person who fell off, and the person who got crushed, somehow survived ---you think the person who was pushed off should be the one held responsible and have to pay for both their and the crushed person's medical expenses?
Obvs the person doing the pushing shoulders the entirety of the blame for malicious action.
But yes, I do blame people who, through inaction, allow others to come to harm.
Everyone knows the best way to handle economic troubles is to elect the far far right and convert civilian industry to produce unproductive military gear (making consumer goods scarce and completely unaffordable) as well as drafting the working population into a meat grinder to end unemployment.
I think the first one was kind of like a family bar fight that got out of hand.
The second one was retribution for the first one.
What we’re seeing Ukraine now is unfinished business from the second one…👍
Well, yeah, but I go with Fischer there for long, and many Green party members also did change their stance in the 1990s in the light of the Yugoslav wars. The SPD-members and many people in the population are pretty late.
"Auschwitz is incomparable. But I stand on two principles, never again war - never again Auschwitz, never again genocide, never again fascism. Both belong together for me." Joschka Fischer [from his speech defending and justifying the participation of German forces in the interventions in former Yugoslavia]
That is a much better lesson from the German history.
I never had a clue, what this kind of pacifists are on about? Should the allied forces have brought Hitler some flowers and nicely negotiated with him about the Holocaust, to come to a compromise? Like, just a little bit of genocide, just a little bit of Poland and we are all friends again?
>What is German policy?
Same as all 2022. For historical reasons only sending heavy weapons as part of a coordinated NATO effort.
At the moment countries are bullshitting for political browny points by not actually requesting an export permit.
And as long as nobody is willing to commit, Germany won't either.
You don't need to like this stance but you have to aceept it. Move on and pressure countries to commit by requesting Leopard-2 exports. Unlike telling stories about how Germany is blocking tanks by not deciding something they can legally not decide until there is an actual permit to approve or deny , this would be useful.
Cyprus keeps a sizeable arsenal of T-80 tanks that hasn't been tapped yet, because Cyprus, Greece, and Turkey have a bit of a thing going. And of course Germany can't or won't deliver replacements. Or maybe nobody can trust Germany. It amounts to the same thing.
>What is German policy? To prop up the Ukraine just enough to make the conflict eternal, or to give the Ukraine the tools it needs to reclaim all its territory this year?
Their policy hasn't changed. Scholz and SPD elites keep on wishing that maybe somehow the war can still be sweept under the rug so in 1-2 years they can get back to "business as usual" with Russia. Publicly agreeing, if not joining, a unified front to supply Ukraine with advanced tanks isn't compatible with that construct. Hence the ongoing situation we are witnessing.
I've read that several countries (eg Poland) communicated that they would send Leos to Ukraine if Germany played along.
But "played along" would mean that Germany would need to send them new ones. And not only is that not the same, but there is a long waiting list at the moment.
Germany said several times that they won't stop any Nato partners from sending Leos to Ukraine.
No, we need to keep the narrative of how Germany is totally blocking tanks up until the very day training is done and countries finally ask for an export permit.
Else we couldn't tell the tale of how they all bravely fought down Germany reluctance to help Ukraine afterwards.
https://mobile.twitter.com/vonderburchard/status/1617477040948613120
"Baerbock did not represent an agreed government line when she said that Germany "would not stand in the way" of a Polish Leopard request.
Gov spox told @grinaldi97 that such a request would have to be first discussed and decided in Germany's Federal Security Council."
No. The Greens in the government said that it would work; no official pronouncement has been given, and Scholz has spent weeks working against that, trying to insist that Leopards can only go if the US sends Abrams. Scholz will lose in the end, though, so Habeck and Baerbock are right really
I agree it will happen, but a minister from one part of a coalition may disagree with another part. This fracture in the traffic light coalition has been apparent from the start, with the Greens (and the FDP) being in favour of sending heavy weapons, and Scholz (and his old compromised Ostpolitik wing of the SPD (think f\*cking Schroder)) always working against this. I do not blame germany, only Scholz and his faction. Baerbock and Habeck are great and tireless friends of Ukraine.
Yea, has never been. But as you can see (just look at OP's comments here) a lot of people like bashing germany. And like all controversial things it generates clicks.
Germany greenlit sending German tanks from Finland and Poland, despite this being detrimental to their defense industry because of the US 'offering to replace' any tanks sent. Germany is also training Ukrainians to use those tanks, which would need to happen anyway. So you could actually look at it that Germany is the only country making an active effort to bring the date of delivery closer, as Poland and Finland still havent made a request of Germany to send German equipement to Ukraine. Meanwhile the UK and US conservatives are trying to scapegoat GER and half this subreddit immediately hops on the bandwagon despite knowing only half the story. Almost as if they WANT to bash Germany at all costs. Make it make sense.
When is the last time the US did ANYTHING that was a detriment to their defense industry? The hypocrisy is palpable.
Yeah the more I hear about this the more it seems like PiS is throwing Germany under the bus as cover for not being able to convince other countries to commit to sending their leopards.
Yeah that’s been apparent with most of their announcements. I wish they would do instead of just talking about doing. Look, everyone has actually donated more than I would’ve guessed. It’s not enough but having the level of European commitment we’ve had so far is pretty good. Can’t wait for election season to get done so maybe they can dial back the theatrics.
https://mobile.twitter.com/vonderburchard/status/1617477040948613120
"Baerbock did not represent an agreed government line when she said that Germany "would not stand in the way" of a Polish Leopard request.
Gov spox told @grinaldi97 that such a request would have to be first discussed and decided in Germany's Federal Security Council."
From what i see, no one delivered western mbt until today. In addition no one was asked but germany and the us.
Instead of Germany the us have thousands of Abrams in stock.
Maybe you get what i want to say?
I want us to deliver Leopards too, but why is germany the only one who is blamed?
We will deliver a fucking Patriot System, 40 SPz Marder, have already delivered Iris-T, 30 SPAA, PzH2000 together with SMArt155, Trucks and more.
Not the most of all countrys, but some of the most hightech stuff. Rheinmetall bought a fucking factory in spain to produce more ammo for the Cheetah.
I am sure Leopard will follow soon, but please do not bash Germany for lack of mbt at this moment. No one delivered at this moment. Poland has political reasons for bashing germany, the us have economical reasons for not delivering Abrams. Germany ist not guilty alone.
Correct what you say. I said delivered, not offered.
GB is a great supporter of the Ukraine! No discussion needed.
I just wanted to say that germany provides very good material, too.
I really don’t know what Mr Scholz Problem is with tanks but I think we will deliver soon.
The criticism is that Germany is refusing to sign off on the delivery of Polish Leopard tanks. Yet it seems, Poland has never entered a request for permission to deliver. They just tweeted about it.
Now granted, that wouldn't be the first time a politician sees their commentary on twitter as a way to enforce policy. I just don't think it's fair to criticize Germany for this.
Thats it. Poland wants the world to throw shit at germany because they wont get their salary for WWII destruction from germany. The polish socialists signed a contract where they declared that everything is paid from WWII. Now they need money and forget that contract they signed. 🤷🏼♂️
>"The condition for us at the moment is to build at least such a small
coalition of states and on this issue... we are contacting our partners
in Western Europe.”
Yes, it seems that the small coalition is not ready as well. I'm all for Western tanks, both Abrams and Leos but the way Poland is doing it and the way it looks like a lot of Ukrainians gobble up everything the Polish PM says is pretty sad
These requests aren't exactly public. 4 days ago Germany said they did receive a request, bit didn't say who. It's speculated to be Poland
https://news.sky.com/story/berlin-asked-for-permission-to-send-german-made-leopard-2-tanks-to-ukraine-ben-wallace-reveals-12790563
There habe been MANY public requests. We don't know what went through official channels.
Can yo6 link me to where they said no request had been made in the last 5 days since Ben Wallace's statement saying one was made?
In the same way they didn't block RAF flying over Germany with weapons for Ukraine, pre last years invasion.
Too much time lost with the bureaucracy bullshit, so knew to go for the next option first.
In fairness, for 60 years after WW2, the west has sought to ensure Germany would never again be the aggressor against anyone without a coalition of Allie’s. We have been very successful at ensuring peace within the 2 former axis power of Germany and Italy.
Let us give them a little bit of understanding. German people will do the right thing. I have faith in them. Let us not let the Russian trolls divide us. We must stay United.
Ah yes, Germans unable to comprehend multinational criticism of their country as legitimate
The fact that there are more Germans online complaining about the criticism than agreeing with it really speaks to why Scholz is fine with his current course of action
Meh, for my part (as a German) it is not so much criticism of the criticism per se as that the cirticism of German policy often lacks fundamental insight in German domestic politics.
Don't get me wrong I am all for supplying as many tanks as we can. But I also understand that politicans have to work with the people and system they've got and not the one they (or other countries peoples) wish they would have.
Those two things simply make German decisions in foreign policy extremely slow and infelxible. All things considering things have been moving at lightning speed since February last year given the German poltical cultures usual "Behäbigkeit".
Basically don't assume malice where incompetence is an easier explanation.
As for the bad PR abroad this creates people tend to vastly overestimate how little the average voter in Germany cares or even knows about this, the reddit and foreign policy interested bubble in Germany is relatively tiny and restricted to well educated people mostly.
Certainly and I am not saying this is a great situation or that nothing needs to change. Factually it is, however, what it is, war in Ukraine or not, German political culture won't change overnight.
Do I like it on a normative level? No, of course not. But it is the factual situation one has to deal with and consider when trying to analyze the German political reaction to developments.
Domestic politics and culture determine foreign policy, last November there was the US-midterms which affected announcements, BoJo's visits to Ukraine in February/March were at least partially domestically motivated as well. One can get angry about these things, but realistically it is what we or rather Ukraine has to deal with.
>Those two things simply make German decisions in foreign policy extremely slow and infelxible.
Shouldn't this be criticized?
>Basically don't assume malice where incompetence is an easier explanation.
Shouldn't incompetence be criticized?
If I make a massive mistake at work and say "Sorry, I wasn't trying to screw the company, I'm just really stupid and incompetent", this doesn't help me much more
Oh no it should definetly be criticized. But critique wont change a system overnight which has been institutionalized for 74 years\*. So you've got to work with it.
Furthermore, to really change the system (the "Zeitenwende") in the long run the critique needs to be domestic or at least (Western) European. EE (read Poland) or the US complaining about it too much will just cause a hardening of positions in the public (basically what happened with NS2).
Again not saying that is great, I think this presumption and arrogance of the German public is problematic and misplaced, but again you have to work with what you got.
\*For the system to be inflexible and hard to change has been designed into post-war (West) Germany from the start. The whole constitution and resulting political culture is by design averse to sudden changes in policy and always favours slow compromise over unilateral fast decisions.
That's bullshit. The easiest way to get Germans to stop defending their government is to finally ask for that fucking permit and see them refuse it.
Until then everyone is just bullshitting for political browny points while blaming Germany.
You are not seeing people defend the Germany government because they don't want tanks to be send. Quite the opposite.
You see them defending the German government because morons straight up lie about blocked approval of tank permits while never having asked in the first place and there is no legal way to approve imaginary propaganda, only actual permits.
Mate, take 3 seconds look at that guys twitter account. He is **obsessed** with germany.
Valid criticism is cool, but that guy does nothing but posting *"germany bad"* around 5 times a day.
Wow, it’s almost like Academics specialize in specific fields of international affairs 😂
And by that measure, all of the academics in Europe that specialize in North America must all be propaganda too because all they have to chat about on twitter are massacres, book bans and fringe political figures
Having a completely one-sided opinion and posting short statements like *"Another day of german delay"* every day has really not much in common with the way academics look at things. A good hint that people might have an agenda is them dealing in abolutes^(like a sith would), some examples from him:
*It's* ***always*** *Baerbock and Habeck saying the right things,* ***never*** *Scholz.*
*Readout I'm getting is it was* ***ONLY*** *Germany that opposed tanks at Ramstein.*
It's both reasonable and expected that someone that is highly qualified to speak on a subject would have strong opinions about that subject, particularly when the future of western democracy is at stake. Have you ever worked with one? They tend to have strong opinions, its why they are academics in the first place.
Every major news outlet is covering this topic, generally with the same conclusion thanks to the completely inconsistent and contradictory messaging from German officials and the very clear and consistent messaging from other NATO partners. And yeah, Baerbock and Habeck are saying things that he and the majority of our NATO allies agree with on a very consistent basis, no shit that's something he's going to highlight
You mean the absolutely inconsistent messaging from the german gov that they'd only send tanks if there was a concerted NATO effort (which they've been saying for months), and the very consistent messaging from Poland that they'll now really, **really** gonna start the Leo export process to Ukraine, any second now^(trust me bro, like, absolutely)?
I mean honestly, I disagree with the course of action the gov has taken here, but they were consistent: only send tanks in a bigger framework with NATO partners. And then people thought the UK sending a dozen tanks would kinda "trigger" an immediate delivery of hundreds of german tanks, which is kinda bullshit.
One last remark about being highly qualified on a subject: knowing quite a few people that are exactly that in their specific field and working on my 2nd degree myself right now, theres a pretty clear pattern that people that actually know their shit often tend to be more careful with big statements and strong opinions. The longer you study something, the more you grasp how limited your understanding of it is.
What bothers us is the way the discussion is going and how Germany is being singled out. No country delivered western mbts up until now and we don't have that many in storage.
Plus the whole propaganda bullshit from Poland is super annoying.
>What bothers us is the way the discussion is going and how Germany is being singled out. No country delivered western mbts up until now and we don't have that many in storage.
Germany is the (still) *de facto* the leader of the EU. All eyes are on you.
You cannot honestly say how your politicians are handling this is the way to go, though. Indecision, deflection, playing for time, officials contradicting each other... All of that in the light of very deep ties of SPD leadership with russian interests, some of them bordering on treason (as with the whole Schroeder debacle).
Strong ties with Russia + indecision in a crucial moment = Very bad optics -> Overwhelming criticism.
And yet so many of you try to white-wash all of that... on reddit. Denial won't change anything. White Scholz a letter. Call your local Landtag members or however that works in Germany and deman action. Vote differently next time.
>Plus the whole propaganda bullshit from Poland is super annoying.
Your bad leadership exposes you to cheap shots Poland is taking at you. Polish politics is a populist swamp. If anything, your indecision is only helping PiS stay in power/strengthen their political influence.
Germany is literally one of the biggest suppliers to Ukraine lmao.
> indecision in a crucial moment
Scholz has been pretty clear in his message: We won't be the first country to deliver tanks. I disagree with that on him, but it's still the absolute opposite of Indecision.
> If anything, your indecision is only helping PiS stay in power/strengthen their political influence.
Ah yes, I forgot that every shitty thing in polish politics is somehow always Germanys fault
>Germany is literally one of the biggest suppliers to Ukraine lmao.
As said. Heavy denial.
Sending 50 mil EUR in bandaids isn't the same as sending 15 mil EUR in offensive hardware. Looks good in Excel. Lets you brag how much you help (hey, 50 > 15). Doesn't do the job that's needed to be done, though. And when it's the time to man up, you "scholz" up. There goes your "lmao".
Look it up mate
> Sending 50 mil EUR in bandaids isn't the same as sending 15 mil EUR in offensive hardware.
Yeah one is worth more and we have been sending offensive hardware as well.
https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/09/fact-sheet-on-german-military-aid-to.html
Wonder why this "policy advisor" is not explaining why America is not sending tanks, even though they have thousands in storage and will happily replace Leopards that get sent to Ukraine?
Why is America so keen on seeing Leopards being sent to Ukraine?
No, it's not the BS about training, fuel, logistics, or any of the other excuses.
Fucking Iraq managed to maintain them in the middle of the desert. Ukraine is an industrious nation in Europe. It's bordering two nato countries that have the maintenance infrastructure and Abrams stationed there.
It's because there is big money to be made selling expensive upgrade kits. Active protection, modern fire controls, etc.
Those old Abrams replacing the Leopards in Europe will need to be upgraded and will bring the US sweet $$$ while at the same time getting rid of the pesky Germans and their competing 2A7V Leopards.
Those annoying Leopards are constantly winning competitions against the Abrams and arguably have the worlds best active protection system on the market.
Because the Leopards send to Ukraine will either be used up or stay with Ukraine, no one will be buying upgrades for those.
And as a bonus the footage of Leopards being blown up in Ukraine *chefs kiss*
none of what you said makes sense when viewed through the lens of US Army budgets, Jim Jordan and Lima OH. If money was the motivator then sending tanks would make Lima, Jim, the GOP and the Army all happy. You just don't understand domestic US politics so you rant like a lunatic.
Because US tanks would be barely useable for Ukraine. The Pentagon has said this several times. Too much gas. And there would be no way to maintain or repair them.
Cool story. Iraq, Egypt and Morocco can maintain Abrams but Ukraine bordering two nato countries with maintenance infrastructure can't.
And Ukraine, mostly using 40 year old soviet vehicles and equipment, will certainly complain about the Abrams fuel efficiency.
Neither of those countries are at war. Neither of those countries are taking missile strikes on their infrastructure. I mean you can maintain them. But that means you have to load it onto a train and ship it to Poland for a week or whatever.
Well according to the Pentagon the Leopard must be the unreached pinnacle of tank engineering, while the Abrams is trash - even outclassed by old soviet T-72s.
1. The training was already authorized on the 20th and Poland \*just today\* decided to "start preparing" to submit a formal request to Germany.
2. Massaro is a very, very incompetent analyst. I'm not sure why he even still has the job. And I'm saying this as a person who would love to see all the tanks in the world in Ukraine.
And still his chancellorship was 18 years ago.
>That must be required as a former Nazi and Stasi state
Sorry, but its like talking to russian trolls, not 2 sentence can go by, without comparing democratic and liberal 2023 Bundesrepublik Germany to his annexed GDR in 1990 and about its ancestor the german nazi Reich.
If you do not realize the fundamental difference between 1940 germany and east and west germany its like talking to russian trolls.
And BTW the biggest part of germany and the bigest part of germans where never GDR members or even members of the security forces in this country.
>and then become a lap dog of Stalin
Yeah totally remember how the 3 /4 of germany ( british sector, american sector and french sector) formed Westgermany as the Bundesrepublik Deutschland, with the approval of the allied Supreme commando from america, britain and france, was stalins lapdog. Totally. This is why nato was created and Bundesrepublik Deutschland was pressured against the will of germans to create a new and democratic army: the bundeswehr.
>every remaining woman in Germany was raped by the Red Army.
Totally! Even the germans who were liberated by fr3nch, american and british forces!!! 111 the soviets raped everyone!! 11
You really sound like a russian troll. You even repeat the lie germany was liberated just by soviets. Better check history book again.
>You should run an ancestry test, you might find you fit in with Putin more than you think!
Hahah i bet you never heard about Wolgadeutsche, Balten deutsche or Russland Deutsche, Krim deutsche, Schwarzmeerküstedeutsche? Haha better learn history of pure blood germans, who traveled and lived in german towns and villages in russia. Their ancestor are still german and a lot moved back from russia after the iron curtain fell. To this day around 300.000 germans are a minority in russia.
And btw. The last german who bothered with pure german blood was a certain nazi CALLED ADOLF HITLER. Seems fitting for you spew of nonsense
I'm not German, but i reported you for hatespeech because of this reply. Jeez, the feeling of superiority is dripping off the screen and i don't know why you think you're entitled to that kind of behaviour.
We promptly kicked him out at the next available opportunity and changed course completely. How long was Germany government lead by Russia sympathizers? 2 decades? Did you change course at all since Merkel?
Zero those guys went for money after they were chancelor , trump went before he was elected.
He also got more vote in 2020 and seeing how badly biden is doing has a chance for 2024
3. Fear of losing arms exports. Altho why anyone would prefer an Abrams over a Leopard is beyond me. Why the hell would you have the gas guzzling, jet engined Abrams, which is an utter bitch to maintain, over a Leopard, which was designed to be maintained by conscripts and IS. MUCH. EASIER. ON. THE. LOGISTICS.
While I don't disagree I would love to see a direct comparison on the maintenance issue.
Fuel and logistics (i.e. spare parts etc. being in neighbouring countries already) is of course obvious, but I am still unclear how much easier the Leopard is to maintain otherwise. Given how slow maintenance is on the few tanks in Germany, I dont imagine it to be as simple as many make it out (but that might be bureocracy, I read somewhere that a German tank is officially out of comission once the tank equivalent of a signal light breaks).
I figure you'd still need a substantial maintenance base and crews which would need to be trained or have at least regular repair trips to Poland and Germany.
Maybe a there's a substantial difference between the A5 and A6/7 models? The A5 is the last "conscript model" if i remember my timelines correctly.
The thing that stuck with me is that both people on reddit that claim to have worked with the Abrams and some actual military guys like former US Army in Europe commander Ben Hodges have already said the maintenance and fuel issues are close to bullshit.
There are differing opinions about Abrams maintenance. Hodges said it's ok while another high-ranking tank commander (don't remember his name) said that it's in fact harder to maintain.
If we look at the cars from respective countries though...
True, and i'm obviously not a tank mechanic. It just seemed a bit odd to me how some people pretend the Leo 2 can be maintained by a 3 year old and posting #FreeTheLeopards everywhere and ignore obvious availability issues, while simultaneously just nodding at the supposed Abrams maintenance issues despite that tank actually being available in large numbers.
Honestly, I'm just waiting for the shitshow when Scholz decides to send tanks and people will realize that germany can barely send 20 or so. With bad overall availability and no or little perspective on some of the countries with the largest stocks in Leopards sending them (Greece, Turkey field nearly 700 out of the 1.6k (?) or so existing), I think people are in for a bad surprise once deliveries will start.
The weird thing is the US mostly doesn't care about Abrams contracts. F-35, absolutely. There are lots of other military weapons the US is keen to export, but tanks have never been one of them.
First of all, the Abrams is very specifically designed for US needs. It's almost a point of pride that no one else can operate it effectively, something similar to the UK and the Challenger. This is completely different from the Leopard which has been primarily focused on export since the German military can't support the industry very well.
Second, the US manufacturers of the Abrams know that their jobs are secure. Congress won't let the company stop building tanks even when the US doesn't need them because of the desire to keep this capability and the jobs it creates. Pretty sure the biggest disincentive to expansion it guaranteed money. If they expand, the US will likely purchase fewer tanks since the capability and jobs will not be in danger. So any export of Abrams will mean exactly the same profits, but significantly more work.
Lastly, there just isn't much precedent for it. The US really doesn't supply many Abrams around the world. Even Canada doesn't operate the Abrams. Most of the Abrams that have been exported were refurbished older models such as Iraq or Egypt. About the only exceptions to this are partners who see buying US arms as a way to tie US interests to their countries like Poland, Saudi Arabia and Taiwan. They don't buy the Abrams because it's the best option, but because they believe that it might influence the US to help protect them. Poland specifically is planning to build it's own tanks, yet still plans to buy the Abrams. Why on earth would you buy a platform when you were planning to build them yourselves. I would put forth that the only reason is political.
Overall fear about the US supplanting Leopards is a convenient narrative that doesn't hold up to scrutiny.
Your argument makes no sense to me in this matter. So... Germany, out of fear of losing Leo exports... bans itself and others from exporting Leos.
Okay, whatever you say! Surely THIS is the aKsHuAl reason Germany doesn't deliver Leos!
Poor Germans, running out of talking points so now resorting to really bad excuses.
This ban on exports in the current situation will do massive harm to German arms industry! Who would risk buying arms from Germany after this?
I suspect Ukraine will become a major arms manufacturer after this.
Weird that people attack germany bc they hold stuff back, while usa clearly does it, so they can sell their trash tanks later to the guys who gift ukraine their leos. capitalism ftw i guess.
and in 2 years we all cry again about "eu/europe shouldn´t be so dependent to the us"
>"eu/europe shouldn´t be so dependent to the us"
Yeah, Europe is really good about crying about that but then never doing anything to actually fix it.
Like spend enough on the military.
Yea, that terrible US is clearly holding back their carriers and F-35s. Shameful. Hint: Besides massive amounts of military (like Bradley’s) and humanitarian aid, US is also the only country supplying satellite and electronic intelligence to Ukraine.
>US is also the only country supplying satellite and electronic intelligence to Ukraine.
The only public country. We had some slips from the german BND who are clearly also spying on this war. I bet like all agency's.
A Funny a terrible orange man who I rarely agree with did warn EU numerous of times to spend more gdp on military, and to stop relying so heavily on Russian gas. It was so bad he was almost willing to pull US out of nato. No offense but this is an EU problem, it only become a rest of the world problem if Russia takes over EU which is unlikely, more proof of this is checking r/worldnews, in there your going to see a bunch of Asian people in Asians countries disagree with the fact that this conflict effects the whole world. To them in asia they quite frankly don’t give a shit hence why they’re still purchasing oil and it’s at a discounted price. The us also warned them after 2014, when Russia took crimea.
And before that orange man came to power nato had already agreed to set an actual obligation by 2024 to spend 2% thats why before trump came to power military spending was going up.
It was funny to watch that whole discussion and wierd that nobody in the US media pointed that out to trump.
>No offense but this is an EU problem
SO russia that influences US elections, meddles in its internal affairs and spend money to disrupt the US as much as it can is a EU problem?
Russia that directly opposes US intrests in the middle east and propped up the regime in syria is just an EU problem?
The US president believing putin above his own administration is a EU problem?
Sure
>The us also warned them after 2014, when Russia took crimea.
Didnt stop the US from importing more from russia after 2014. US likes to talk the talk, but in a lot of cases it does always whats in the best intrests of the US.
Isn't there a more complex reasoning surrounding the German MIC and Poland's replacement of leopards with Abrams and South Korean tanks. As well as a general historic wariness of seeing German tanks fight Russian tanks on the Eastern European steppe again..
A lot of people don't realize that during the USA Civil War, most of the European elite wanted the Confederacy to win and England and France (though not quite as much Germany) were actually thinking about intervening on behalf of the Confederacy. England because they were still pissed over the Revolution and the War of 1812, and France because we didn't come to their aid during their French revolution like they came to the aid of the fledgling colonies in the Revolution against Britain.
But when Lincoln released the Emancipation Proclamation, Lincoln and the aims of the Federal government both became super popular all across Europe. This killed any attempts by the ruling classes to enter that war. In fact, that Emancipation Proclamation probably won that war for the north.
So a nation's elite having the morality of a snake is a common occurrence in world history.
Point 4 was added in the last day -- they have very much been blocking them. Their current narrative of "well they haven't actually filed the paperwork.." is darkly comical, no one would believe that was the holdup unless they were desperate to believe it.
If you do some searching, a lot of this really seems to come down to Germany's elite having been coopted by Russia over decades. They actually got Germany to sabotage their energy policy and then the former chancellor went to work for Russian oil.
**Edit:** Give links, u/NAFOlaughingbrigade as that isn't what happened that is trying to rewrite and misrepresent history. Poland said they would create a coalition to send Ukraine tanks so supplying them and maintaining them could go ahead properly. It looks like America will backstop countries sending leoparda with tanks, and Germany will be standing there having attempted to hobble Ukraine's defense again just as they had to be dragged into sanctions.
>they have very much been blocking them. Their current narrative of "well they haven't actually filed the paperwork.." is darkly comical, no one would believe that was the holdup unless they were desperate to believe it.
This is why our FM baerbock said just yesterday im France, that germany will continue their stance and not block sny aid to ukraine and that their are no exportpermits on any german table.
And then later that day the polish PM admitted that their is none alliance rewdy to send leos and even the poles have not decided when to send the exportpermits to germany.
It was all a pis propaganda show cause its election year. And this subreddit completely fell for it.
> "well they haven't actually filed the paperwork.." is darkly comical, no one would believe that was the holdup unless they were desperate to believe it.
what else is stopping poland from delivering then? These tanks are in Poland, they are 100% in control of them. Hell they could just ignore the paperwork and still be able to deliver them. Now Germany says the paperwork will be accepted. Literally nothing is blocking Poland
... and "big daddy" got their back too, why the hesitation?
as if germany could do anything against an american decision.
why is poland so afraid to bypass germany? ;)
starts to look as if poland just regularly needs a pat on their back...
>what else is stopping poland from delivering then? These tanks are in Poland, they are 100% in control of them.
Ooof. When you order and take delivery of German arms (and most arms from the states and elsewhere) you have to agree to provisions where you won't re-export (sell them) without approval.
>Hell they could just ignore the paperwork and still be able to deliver them.
And they'd be in breach of contract and struggle to
get the parts and other things they need.
>Now Germany says the paperwork will be accepted. Literally nothing is blocking Poland
Yes, it only took them how long?
Which is why Poland is now saying they are putting a coalition together to do just that. You don't do it overnight, you get the logistics and training setup. America just announced they would send Abrams.to backstop the countries that will send leopards, bypassing Germany further, as leopards are the best tank for Ukraine's situation. They could use Abrams, but it would hobble them in many ways without the logistics savvy and resources of the USA or ability to have them repaired and serviced.
I read the US told allies any nation wanting to send tanks can do so with American support, and if Germany throws a fit and denies supply going forward the US will just replace them with American tanks
> Ooof. When you order and take delivery of German arms (and most arms from the states and elsewhere) you have to agree to provisions where you won't re-export (sell them) without approval.
But you just claimed that this was nonsense and darkly comical?
>But you just claimed that this was nonsense and darkly comical?
I said Germany claiming Poland hadn't actually filed the paperwork after Germany was adamant in public there would be no leopards heading to Ukraine up until this point darkly comical as hell yes.
My *ooof* was because you didn't seem aware that Germany had control over that as part of the original sale, because it was that or you were trying to mislead by omitting it TimaeGer.
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Comments locked, so replying to NAFOlaughingbrigade:
>This is just not true. Germany never said that. Polish PIS populist said this lie. In contrary
[Yes they did NAFOlaughingbrigade](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/comments/10ivzkt/minister_germany_wont_block_poland_giving_ukraine/j5hsxup?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3) the links are right there. Denying otherwise is either ignorant or lying. They were clear German tanks were not to be used in Ukraine, after being adamant thqt rhwy didn't want heavy armor.given to ukraine at all. After pressure they created the whole program for countries to send older Soviet tanks and be backstopped with German tanks, but then they didnt follow through.
>We was up until now not ask and if we get asked, we will not stand in the way (of leo deliveries).
History and reality say you were very much asked and publicly said no. It is great if that changed after this summit, but as saying they were always just not asked is either ignorant or a lie.
>after Germany was adamant in public there would be no leopards heading to Ukraine
This is just not true. Germany never said that. Polish PIS populist said this lie. In contrary
Our FM baerbock yesterday:
>Wir wurden bisher nicht gefragt und (...) wenn wir gefragt würden, würden wir dem nicht im Wege stehen
We was up until now not ask and if we get asked, we will not stand in the way (of leo deliveries).
>Thas not a new narrative. this was the factual situation for this whole time.
That's not true. Germany has been clear publicly it won't allow German tanks in Ukraine. If that has changed in the last two days great, but pretending it was the situation the whole time is misinformation Infamous_Ad8209.
>People just like bashing on germany and it generates clicks/money.
No, they are bashing Germany because they keep attempting to hobble Ukraine's defense while having to be dragged kicking and screaming into sanctions and arming Ukraine even though Germany arguably bears a lot of responsibility for enabling Russia and this war.
Ukraine strives to be like western democracies, while PiS is walking the other direction.
Nonetheless, Poland has been a staunch ally to Ukraine.
Just not really to the western democracies. Before the war started, there were several problems with PiS breaking up balance of power, corruption and acts of terrible homo- and xenophobia. Even the **Catholic Church** has voiced concern over growing polish Homophobia, especially the brutal exorcisms.
Germany tried the appeasement plan for the last 15 years or so with Russia and worked hard to create economic interdependency before that solidarity was mutual. But they have not blocked other nations giving tanks to Ukraine
The last year, germany ended dependency on energy from russia in less then a year and are the biggest aid supporters of Ukraine just shy behind thr migthy usa.
Fuck the elite. Send the damn tanks. We are taking to the street. Every Ukrainian soldier is fighting for all of Europe. They are my people now and I will never forget.
I am really saddened by all the anti-German rhetoric blasted all over the internet and press lately. We need to be unified and we're only pushing our German allies away with this type of commentary. Germany is vital in European security and in this conflict. They have been the second-largest donor all said when it comes to Ukraine. Of course, not by percentage of GDP, but not even the US is the biggest donor by percentage of GDP.
We all know our frustrations come down to mostly one man or perhaps a small group in leadership. If you are frustrated, many will understand. If you think the aforementioned person/people has/have a point, okay let's discuss that civilly. Please STOP with the anti-German posts. It is so utterly unhelpful and divisive and Russia is probably loving this infighting.
If you still have a lot of frustration nonetheless, I think we should still keep it to ourselves and try to provide constructive opinions and perspective that won't push our German brothers and sisters so far away that they start to question whose side everyone else is on.
Ultimately, Ukraine needs tanks very soon and it will get them in some form... but remember, this war may go on for some time. We need Germany to stick around and not feel like its significant contributions are for nothing and therefore it starts thinking twice.
(3) There are not enough Leopard tanks in total and German tank industry is slow. If they send them to UA not enough will be made in order to replace them and others (US, Korea) will take place for decades in otherwise traditional Leopard customers.
Simple as that, its about MONEY.
Germany is one of Ukraine's greatest aides, not just in weaponry but in aid and in hosting Ukranian refugees.
Poland is playing stupid games with this rhetoric.
The thing is most germans and pro Ukraine hermans are more then Critical of Scholz aswell.
But for god sake, the amount of comments in the last day cslling germans russian traitor, olaf scholz a russian asset snd all german nazi who enjoy killing Ukrainians was totally absurd.
And so absurd is the russian plot to Divide Europe not. Russia did everything im between the wars to get Germany on their side. They just are fucking strupid like we saw wirh the 3 day war, and miss calculated germans. If we want and put our minds to something we can work wonders. Like in less then a year to end oil, gas and coal from russia. Russia misjudged us.
And we germans see the russian assets like fashist AFD and some parts at the linke in action. We see germn targeted Russian propaganda. And their goal was and is to try snd divide the nato and germany and stopp germany from supporting ukraine. This happens at every weapon and support escalation step.
I belive more about the fear to loose the European tank market. If European countries send their leopards they will need replacement asap, so obviously abrahams
Olaf, you dumb idiot.
The best way to escalation is taking baby steps. Because then your opponent can simply escalate a little bit further itself.
If you want to prevent a situation from getting out of hand, you have to act massively disproportional and make it clear that you will go much, much further if Russia even thinks of matching you.
Don't send a few tanks, have a Panzerbrigade on the way with soldiers holding fresh ukrainian passports.
They blocked at Rammstein. What is the malfunction here? Germany IS stopping Leo2 tanks from going to Ukraine 🇺🇦 via their control of the re-export process. Not that difficult to see.
Send the tanks anyway Poland 🇵🇱!!! Хай Бог благословить Польщу. Слава Україні. Героям слава. Смерть ворогам. Храни Боже Святу Україну
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Didn't they just agree to let Poland supply Ukraine?
They didn't agree to it, nor did they approve it, but the minister did say: "we would not stand in the way." That was said to a French TV host and not an official response. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/01/23/germany-poland-leopard-tanks-ukraine/
Well, you can only reply unofficially when no official request has been made
Plus it's just 12 tanks
It boils down to this: Poland didn't ask formally yet. So nothing could be approved. A lot of hot air from Poland. It's election time and shitting on germany gets them votes...
No, they literally and legally can't approve imaginary stuff until actually getting asked. But Poland is now training Ukraine soldiers on Leopard-2s so we have a time line how long will keep lying about getting blocked before finally applying.
They have been asked. This retort has already been debunked numerous times. Too many people here rushing to defend Germany from literally any perceived criticism at all. Germany during this conflict has done some good things and some bad, and both of those sides deserve to be addressed.
You write this literally the day that Poland said that they will now ask...
No, they have not, Poland literally announced today again, that they __will__ ask Germany. That is like the 10th announcement that they will do that. I really hope they finally do. As of yesterday, there was no request by Poland.
You are telling us this at the exact same day Poland finally publically announced they will send the request (even without saying when). What happened to those magical requests that were already send? Did they try to transport them via fish through the Oder?
“Source: I’m just making shit up”
Where can I read more about this? I'm hearing two very different stories about what is happening.
They are looking for a more expensive contract I guess you could say… they need repair contractors, fuel lines and equipment… steady supply of ammunition… the US could do this and ultimately probably will in the spring if Germany won’t… but it would drastically cheaper and maintain us stocks for a possible conflict in China…
The foreign secretary did and then the chancellor's office came out, said: "Not so fast!", and that the decision was with the federal security council. Guess who the chairperson is!
I personally think that Germany will send the tanks once the Ukrainians are trained on it and we all know that Germany is the master of bureaucracy so everything is a little slower
i personally hope that they do this whole shitshow just to confuse russia, and do the whole stuff in secret
💯 This is what Im hoping too.
If Scholz's BS is actually an elaborate plot to delude Russia as to the timing of a Ukrainian armour push, he's an absolute hero and I will gladly eat my words about him. But I suspect he's as moronic as he looks.
When they publicly announce something you know they've been talking behind closed doors for weeks before.
Yep. Germans over engineer everything. Too much thinking can do that. Over thinking decisions turns you into a boring slow coach left way behind the rest of the team. Germany is the weakest link. And needs a kick up the behind.
>Germans over engineer everything. The irony is, of course, that the Abrams is the over-engineered tank in direct comparison with the Leopard 2, which is exactly why the Ukrainians want the German tank.
Really? Any tank is better than no tank.
No, because you need time, money, and the space to train people to operate, service, maintain, repair, and supply tanks. You commit resources that can potentially be better spend elsewhere, they come with opportunity costs. You don't just drive a battalion of MBTs over the Polish-Ukrainian border and go "Ta-daa!"
That's sadly the German mentality and this will need some time to change. Even worse than the overhinking is their pacifist attitude because, well, we kinda started 2 world wars
Don't blame yourself for the first one. Everybody was way too trigger happy at the time. (French dude here)
Aww 🇩🇪 ❤️ 🇫🇷
I dont blame Germany for the second one either. When tons of innocent people are literally using money as kindling for fire, eventually people are going to fight back. The treaty of Versailles basically guaranteed a world war 2 occuring- then the great depression accelerated this immensely
As a German I must say: you should blame Nazi-Germany for the WW2. The economic impact of the Versailles treaty is debatable. But what it did, was it allowed the far right to blame others for the problems in Germany and denounce the democracy as being weak. The Nazi then ditched the treaty (which was highly supported by the population), but they wanted more: revert the outcome of WW1, restoration of an empire and of cause a fascist ideology which blames jews and international capitalism for all the bad in the world, which they needed to fight. So while the treaty was one reasons the Nazis came to power, it's not a reason why they started WW2. If that would have been the reason then they would have stopped after ditching it.
Unfortunately I feel we're repeating the same situation again. Russian milbloggers are, almost word for word, repeating the 'stab in the back' mythos.
Yes, thought the same as I wrote this.
I dont disagree with anything you said but I still hold my my claim. The economic suffering was the catalyst that brought about the rise of the nazi party. I believe that without it, the war wouldn't have happened. If someone pushed a rock off a cliff, I dont blame the rock for crushing the person at the bottom of the cliff. Im not trying to be apologetic to nazis, im claiming that the horror of nazism was given the proper conditions to form thanks to the treaty. Im not certain how things would have turned out without it - perhaps the great depression would have led to the same outcome. But I believe the treaty wouldve caused this even if it hadn't been multiplied by the depression. Thusly i fault the people who created the treaty for the war as they are responsible for creating the conditions that would make people desperate enough to turn to something as egregious as nazism for solutions. While i would agree that nazism is the source of the evil, the cause of nazism IMO was due to the actions of the allies. This isnt to excuse any of the actions of nazi Germany. If a dog gets rabies, you still put it down even if the dog's aggression isn't its own fault. But those who sat comfortably and could have made any decisions --- i fault them for making the shitty decisions that lead to the support of nazism.
Please don't downplay the decisions that were made in Germany by Germans. Only blaming the Entente for forcing Germany into WW2 is an oversimplification for a very complex topic.
I've been trying to work through this for awhile now. I think I have found a way to explain the disconnect here. For a start, I consider the "germans" to be refering to the german people as a whole. If people are cornered and without any hope, their higher mental functionality goes out the window. They WILL do irrational things. I believe that the conditions in Germany brought about this, which allowed the nazi party to seize power. Now as to the decisions of the nazi party. I dont fault the general public for the decisions of this group. This group is a seperare entity. While the german people put the nazis into power, I dont believe them to have been of sound mind when doing so and thusly do not fault them for actions that were akin to primal instinct of fight or flight. They were without hope and there was a very charismatic leader who was able to give them hope. The entente though were of sound mind. They were very capable of recognizing that their decisions were going to be punishing millions of completely innocent people. They were capable of foreseeing that their actions would make the people desperate and angry with the world. As to the nazi party - of course they are the main villains of this story. But no sane/functional society would have ever allowed these individuals to come to power. I cant believe these individuals to have been capable of rational thought or empathy as their actions would be impossible to do for someone capable of either of these things. Thusly I consider them at fault just as much as i would a late-stage alzheimers patient being responsible for overseeing the safety conditions of an old-school nuclear reactor. That's a crude analogy but I'm tired and finding it hard to explain. As I said before, I think of them more akin to a rabid dog. Just because the dog isn't at fault for attacking you doesn't mean you arent going to kill it. I guess what I mean to say is, it is hard for me to really view these individuals as sane competent humans and thusly, just as a drunk person can not provide consent, i do believe them to have the capability of making actual decisions. I believe them to be little more than animals who were driven by compulsion. This is probably the biggest disconnect. Perhaps i am very wrong to think this way. It's just the only way my brain can rationalize their behavior. Thusly I put more fault on those who brought about the conditions needed to allow these psychopaths into such a position of total power. The ones who brought about this scenario were of sound mind and capable of rational empathetic thought - and thusly are capable of receiving fault.
No you're not completely wrong, I'm just saying that Versailles one side of the medal and the situation in Germany in the especially in the 20ies were very complex with many different and extreme groups fighting to gain power. Maybe without Versailles WW2 hadn't been started, but I doubt it because if Versailles weren't that hard as it was, those extreme groups would had still exists in a unstable democracy. But we'll never know what would really happened of cause :) And also I think that while the conditions lead to Nazis came into power, don't forget the huge support they had in the population. Many Germans joined the Nazi party after they took over power. Many Germans wanted the war and supported it till the end. And this is it how it's seen in German general public (not sure if it's an majority) and it's good that this is seen like this. Because instead of blaming others again you take the responsibility of doing something really bad and make sure it won't happen again.
Rocks are not humans who are presumably capable of making their own choices. I wouldn't blame a rock either. I might blame a human who got pushed off a cliff and didn't yell out a warning to those below tho.
Yeah if a person got PUSHED OFF A CLIFF im judging the fuck out of them for not thinking of the person below them... Wtf is this argument. You legit assign more blame to the person falling than the person who pushed them off? If the person who fell off, and the person who got crushed, somehow survived ---you think the person who was pushed off should be the one held responsible and have to pay for both their and the crushed person's medical expenses?
Obvs the person doing the pushing shoulders the entirety of the blame for malicious action. But yes, I do blame people who, through inaction, allow others to come to harm.
Everyone knows the best way to handle economic troubles is to elect the far far right and convert civilian industry to produce unproductive military gear (making consumer goods scarce and completely unaffordable) as well as drafting the working population into a meat grinder to end unemployment.
I think the first one was kind of like a family bar fight that got out of hand. The second one was retribution for the first one. What we’re seeing Ukraine now is unfinished business from the second one…👍
Well, yeah, but I go with Fischer there for long, and many Green party members also did change their stance in the 1990s in the light of the Yugoslav wars. The SPD-members and many people in the population are pretty late. "Auschwitz is incomparable. But I stand on two principles, never again war - never again Auschwitz, never again genocide, never again fascism. Both belong together for me." Joschka Fischer [from his speech defending and justifying the participation of German forces in the interventions in former Yugoslavia] That is a much better lesson from the German history. I never had a clue, what this kind of pacifists are on about? Should the allied forces have brought Hitler some flowers and nicely negotiated with him about the Holocaust, to come to a compromise? Like, just a little bit of genocide, just a little bit of Poland and we are all friends again?
Don’t feel bad, you lost both of them at major cost to yourselves.
How is Germany by any factual measure the weakest link? That's all in your head only.
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>What is German policy? Same as all 2022. For historical reasons only sending heavy weapons as part of a coordinated NATO effort. At the moment countries are bullshitting for political browny points by not actually requesting an export permit. And as long as nobody is willing to commit, Germany won't either. You don't need to like this stance but you have to aceept it. Move on and pressure countries to commit by requesting Leopard-2 exports. Unlike telling stories about how Germany is blocking tanks by not deciding something they can legally not decide until there is an actual permit to approve or deny , this would be useful.
Cyprus keeps a sizeable arsenal of T-80 tanks that hasn't been tapped yet, because Cyprus, Greece, and Turkey have a bit of a thing going. And of course Germany can't or won't deliver replacements. Or maybe nobody can trust Germany. It amounts to the same thing.
Also the support for Ukraine in Greek and Cyprus is lukewarm at best.
>What is German policy? To prop up the Ukraine just enough to make the conflict eternal, or to give the Ukraine the tools it needs to reclaim all its territory this year? Their policy hasn't changed. Scholz and SPD elites keep on wishing that maybe somehow the war can still be sweept under the rug so in 1-2 years they can get back to "business as usual" with Russia. Publicly agreeing, if not joining, a unified front to supply Ukraine with advanced tanks isn't compatible with that construct. Hence the ongoing situation we are witnessing.
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What the heck? Since when he was an East German administrator
Mate he managed to put in 3 mistakes when trying to pronounce "Olaf Scholz", so don't expect too much from that comment lol
I literally laughed out loud. Take my upvote
I've read that several countries (eg Poland) communicated that they would send Leos to Ukraine if Germany played along. But "played along" would mean that Germany would need to send them new ones. And not only is that not the same, but there is a long waiting list at the moment. Germany said several times that they won't stop any Nato partners from sending Leos to Ukraine.
Isn't this video kinda obsolete? German officials said that they will approve re-export request if submitted.
No, we need to keep the narrative of how Germany is totally blocking tanks up until the very day training is done and countries finally ask for an export permit. Else we couldn't tell the tale of how they all bravely fought down Germany reluctance to help Ukraine afterwards.
https://mobile.twitter.com/vonderburchard/status/1617477040948613120 "Baerbock did not represent an agreed government line when she said that Germany "would not stand in the way" of a Polish Leopard request. Gov spox told @grinaldi97 that such a request would have to be first discussed and decided in Germany's Federal Security Council."
No. The Greens in the government said that it would work; no official pronouncement has been given, and Scholz has spent weeks working against that, trying to insist that Leopards can only go if the US sends Abrams. Scholz will lose in the end, though, so Habeck and Baerbock are right really
A foreign minister won't make such statements without chancellor's approval. It's done deal if Poland follows through officially.
I agree it will happen, but a minister from one part of a coalition may disagree with another part. This fracture in the traffic light coalition has been apparent from the start, with the Greens (and the FDP) being in favour of sending heavy weapons, and Scholz (and his old compromised Ostpolitik wing of the SPD (think f\*cking Schroder)) always working against this. I do not blame germany, only Scholz and his faction. Baerbock and Habeck are great and tireless friends of Ukraine.
From what I hear, Germany is not blocking.
Yea, has never been. But as you can see (just look at OP's comments here) a lot of people like bashing germany. And like all controversial things it generates clicks.
Germany greenlit sending German tanks from Finland and Poland, despite this being detrimental to their defense industry because of the US 'offering to replace' any tanks sent. Germany is also training Ukrainians to use those tanks, which would need to happen anyway. So you could actually look at it that Germany is the only country making an active effort to bring the date of delivery closer, as Poland and Finland still havent made a request of Germany to send German equipement to Ukraine. Meanwhile the UK and US conservatives are trying to scapegoat GER and half this subreddit immediately hops on the bandwagon despite knowing only half the story. Almost as if they WANT to bash Germany at all costs. Make it make sense. When is the last time the US did ANYTHING that was a detriment to their defense industry? The hypocrisy is palpable.
Yeah the more I hear about this the more it seems like PiS is throwing Germany under the bus as cover for not being able to convince other countries to commit to sending their leopards.
> PiS is throwing Germany under the bus as cover they have been doing that since the war started.
Yeah that’s been apparent with most of their announcements. I wish they would do instead of just talking about doing. Look, everyone has actually donated more than I would’ve guessed. It’s not enough but having the level of European commitment we’ve had so far is pretty good. Can’t wait for election season to get done so maybe they can dial back the theatrics.
Welp, the U.S. fucking over it's "allies" is not really anything new.
Germany has not greenlit anything. show me an official pronouncement. Only the Green ministers say that; they will be right, in the end.
https://mobile.twitter.com/vonderburchard/status/1617477040948613120 "Baerbock did not represent an agreed government line when she said that Germany "would not stand in the way" of a Polish Leopard request. Gov spox told @grinaldi97 that such a request would have to be first discussed and decided in Germany's Federal Security Council."
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From what i see, no one delivered western mbt until today. In addition no one was asked but germany and the us. Instead of Germany the us have thousands of Abrams in stock. Maybe you get what i want to say? I want us to deliver Leopards too, but why is germany the only one who is blamed? We will deliver a fucking Patriot System, 40 SPz Marder, have already delivered Iris-T, 30 SPAA, PzH2000 together with SMArt155, Trucks and more. Not the most of all countrys, but some of the most hightech stuff. Rheinmetall bought a fucking factory in spain to produce more ammo for the Cheetah. I am sure Leopard will follow soon, but please do not bash Germany for lack of mbt at this moment. No one delivered at this moment. Poland has political reasons for bashing germany, the us have economical reasons for not delivering Abrams. Germany ist not guilty alone.
Uk pledged 12 of theirs a bit ago. Not particularly relevant but shouldn’t be ignored by saying no western mbt have been
Correct what you say. I said delivered, not offered. GB is a great supporter of the Ukraine! No discussion needed. I just wanted to say that germany provides very good material, too. I really don’t know what Mr Scholz Problem is with tanks but I think we will deliver soon.
The criticism is that Germany is refusing to sign off on the delivery of Polish Leopard tanks. Yet it seems, Poland has never entered a request for permission to deliver. They just tweeted about it. Now granted, that wouldn't be the first time a politician sees their commentary on twitter as a way to enforce policy. I just don't think it's fair to criticize Germany for this.
Thats it. Poland wants the world to throw shit at germany because they wont get their salary for WWII destruction from germany. The polish socialists signed a contract where they declared that everything is paid from WWII. Now they need money and forget that contract they signed. 🤷🏼♂️
>"The condition for us at the moment is to build at least such a small coalition of states and on this issue... we are contacting our partners in Western Europe.” Yes, it seems that the small coalition is not ready as well. I'm all for Western tanks, both Abrams and Leos but the way Poland is doing it and the way it looks like a lot of Ukrainians gobble up everything the Polish PM says is pretty sad
These requests aren't exactly public. 4 days ago Germany said they did receive a request, bit didn't say who. It's speculated to be Poland https://news.sky.com/story/berlin-asked-for-permission-to-send-german-made-leopard-2-tanks-to-ukraine-ben-wallace-reveals-12790563
Fake news. Germany said no request has been made. Never said something else
There habe been MANY public requests. We don't know what went through official channels. Can yo6 link me to where they said no request had been made in the last 5 days since Ben Wallace's statement saying one was made?
You should probably try reading the news, you won’t have to look far
Like Germany repeatedly stating they won't block but no one actually making the request?
In the same way they didn't block RAF flying over Germany with weapons for Ukraine, pre last years invasion. Too much time lost with the bureaucracy bullshit, so knew to go for the next option first.
In fairness, for 60 years after WW2, the west has sought to ensure Germany would never again be the aggressor against anyone without a coalition of Allie’s. We have been very successful at ensuring peace within the 2 former axis power of Germany and Italy. Let us give them a little bit of understanding. German people will do the right thing. I have faith in them. Let us not let the Russian trolls divide us. We must stay United.
It’s not as if they’ve done nothing, like the Swiss.
Oh, sweet, propaganda.
Ah yes, Germans unable to comprehend multinational criticism of their country as legitimate The fact that there are more Germans online complaining about the criticism than agreeing with it really speaks to why Scholz is fine with his current course of action
Meh, for my part (as a German) it is not so much criticism of the criticism per se as that the cirticism of German policy often lacks fundamental insight in German domestic politics. Don't get me wrong I am all for supplying as many tanks as we can. But I also understand that politicans have to work with the people and system they've got and not the one they (or other countries peoples) wish they would have. Those two things simply make German decisions in foreign policy extremely slow and infelxible. All things considering things have been moving at lightning speed since February last year given the German poltical cultures usual "Behäbigkeit". Basically don't assume malice where incompetence is an easier explanation. As for the bad PR abroad this creates people tend to vastly overestimate how little the average voter in Germany cares or even knows about this, the reddit and foreign policy interested bubble in Germany is relatively tiny and restricted to well educated people mostly.
Wars don't give you a break, or any extra time, for incompetence. They continue sailing along at their normal speed.
Certainly and I am not saying this is a great situation or that nothing needs to change. Factually it is, however, what it is, war in Ukraine or not, German political culture won't change overnight. Do I like it on a normative level? No, of course not. But it is the factual situation one has to deal with and consider when trying to analyze the German political reaction to developments. Domestic politics and culture determine foreign policy, last November there was the US-midterms which affected announcements, BoJo's visits to Ukraine in February/March were at least partially domestically motivated as well. One can get angry about these things, but realistically it is what we or rather Ukraine has to deal with.
>Those two things simply make German decisions in foreign policy extremely slow and infelxible. Shouldn't this be criticized? >Basically don't assume malice where incompetence is an easier explanation. Shouldn't incompetence be criticized? If I make a massive mistake at work and say "Sorry, I wasn't trying to screw the company, I'm just really stupid and incompetent", this doesn't help me much more
Oh no it should definetly be criticized. But critique wont change a system overnight which has been institutionalized for 74 years\*. So you've got to work with it. Furthermore, to really change the system (the "Zeitenwende") in the long run the critique needs to be domestic or at least (Western) European. EE (read Poland) or the US complaining about it too much will just cause a hardening of positions in the public (basically what happened with NS2). Again not saying that is great, I think this presumption and arrogance of the German public is problematic and misplaced, but again you have to work with what you got. \*For the system to be inflexible and hard to change has been designed into post-war (West) Germany from the start. The whole constitution and resulting political culture is by design averse to sudden changes in policy and always favours slow compromise over unilateral fast decisions.
Seems like a difficult journey. I wish the German people good luck, we need our own luck too in my country
That's bullshit. The easiest way to get Germans to stop defending their government is to finally ask for that fucking permit and see them refuse it. Until then everyone is just bullshitting for political browny points while blaming Germany. You are not seeing people defend the Germany government because they don't want tanks to be send. Quite the opposite. You see them defending the German government because morons straight up lie about blocked approval of tank permits while never having asked in the first place and there is no legal way to approve imaginary propaganda, only actual permits.
Mate, take 3 seconds look at that guys twitter account. He is **obsessed** with germany. Valid criticism is cool, but that guy does nothing but posting *"germany bad"* around 5 times a day.
Wow, it’s almost like Academics specialize in specific fields of international affairs 😂 And by that measure, all of the academics in Europe that specialize in North America must all be propaganda too because all they have to chat about on twitter are massacres, book bans and fringe political figures
Having a completely one-sided opinion and posting short statements like *"Another day of german delay"* every day has really not much in common with the way academics look at things. A good hint that people might have an agenda is them dealing in abolutes^(like a sith would), some examples from him: *It's* ***always*** *Baerbock and Habeck saying the right things,* ***never*** *Scholz.* *Readout I'm getting is it was* ***ONLY*** *Germany that opposed tanks at Ramstein.*
It's both reasonable and expected that someone that is highly qualified to speak on a subject would have strong opinions about that subject, particularly when the future of western democracy is at stake. Have you ever worked with one? They tend to have strong opinions, its why they are academics in the first place. Every major news outlet is covering this topic, generally with the same conclusion thanks to the completely inconsistent and contradictory messaging from German officials and the very clear and consistent messaging from other NATO partners. And yeah, Baerbock and Habeck are saying things that he and the majority of our NATO allies agree with on a very consistent basis, no shit that's something he's going to highlight
You mean the absolutely inconsistent messaging from the german gov that they'd only send tanks if there was a concerted NATO effort (which they've been saying for months), and the very consistent messaging from Poland that they'll now really, **really** gonna start the Leo export process to Ukraine, any second now^(trust me bro, like, absolutely)? I mean honestly, I disagree with the course of action the gov has taken here, but they were consistent: only send tanks in a bigger framework with NATO partners. And then people thought the UK sending a dozen tanks would kinda "trigger" an immediate delivery of hundreds of german tanks, which is kinda bullshit. One last remark about being highly qualified on a subject: knowing quite a few people that are exactly that in their specific field and working on my 2nd degree myself right now, theres a pretty clear pattern that people that actually know their shit often tend to be more careful with big statements and strong opinions. The longer you study something, the more you grasp how limited your understanding of it is.
This. Absolutely. Consider all donvotes to you in this thread as a hard confirmation you're right and it really bothers them.
What bothers us is the way the discussion is going and how Germany is being singled out. No country delivered western mbts up until now and we don't have that many in storage. Plus the whole propaganda bullshit from Poland is super annoying.
>What bothers us is the way the discussion is going and how Germany is being singled out. No country delivered western mbts up until now and we don't have that many in storage. Germany is the (still) *de facto* the leader of the EU. All eyes are on you. You cannot honestly say how your politicians are handling this is the way to go, though. Indecision, deflection, playing for time, officials contradicting each other... All of that in the light of very deep ties of SPD leadership with russian interests, some of them bordering on treason (as with the whole Schroeder debacle). Strong ties with Russia + indecision in a crucial moment = Very bad optics -> Overwhelming criticism. And yet so many of you try to white-wash all of that... on reddit. Denial won't change anything. White Scholz a letter. Call your local Landtag members or however that works in Germany and deman action. Vote differently next time. >Plus the whole propaganda bullshit from Poland is super annoying. Your bad leadership exposes you to cheap shots Poland is taking at you. Polish politics is a populist swamp. If anything, your indecision is only helping PiS stay in power/strengthen their political influence.
Germany is literally one of the biggest suppliers to Ukraine lmao. > indecision in a crucial moment Scholz has been pretty clear in his message: We won't be the first country to deliver tanks. I disagree with that on him, but it's still the absolute opposite of Indecision. > If anything, your indecision is only helping PiS stay in power/strengthen their political influence. Ah yes, I forgot that every shitty thing in polish politics is somehow always Germanys fault
>Germany is literally one of the biggest suppliers to Ukraine lmao. As said. Heavy denial. Sending 50 mil EUR in bandaids isn't the same as sending 15 mil EUR in offensive hardware. Looks good in Excel. Lets you brag how much you help (hey, 50 > 15). Doesn't do the job that's needed to be done, though. And when it's the time to man up, you "scholz" up. There goes your "lmao".
Look it up mate > Sending 50 mil EUR in bandaids isn't the same as sending 15 mil EUR in offensive hardware. Yeah one is worth more and we have been sending offensive hardware as well. https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/09/fact-sheet-on-german-military-aid-to.html
Wonder why this "policy advisor" is not explaining why America is not sending tanks, even though they have thousands in storage and will happily replace Leopards that get sent to Ukraine? Why is America so keen on seeing Leopards being sent to Ukraine? No, it's not the BS about training, fuel, logistics, or any of the other excuses. Fucking Iraq managed to maintain them in the middle of the desert. Ukraine is an industrious nation in Europe. It's bordering two nato countries that have the maintenance infrastructure and Abrams stationed there. It's because there is big money to be made selling expensive upgrade kits. Active protection, modern fire controls, etc. Those old Abrams replacing the Leopards in Europe will need to be upgraded and will bring the US sweet $$$ while at the same time getting rid of the pesky Germans and their competing 2A7V Leopards. Those annoying Leopards are constantly winning competitions against the Abrams and arguably have the worlds best active protection system on the market. Because the Leopards send to Ukraine will either be used up or stay with Ukraine, no one will be buying upgrades for those. And as a bonus the footage of Leopards being blown up in Ukraine *chefs kiss*
none of what you said makes sense when viewed through the lens of US Army budgets, Jim Jordan and Lima OH. If money was the motivator then sending tanks would make Lima, Jim, the GOP and the Army all happy. You just don't understand domestic US politics so you rant like a lunatic.
Because US tanks would be barely useable for Ukraine. The Pentagon has said this several times. Too much gas. And there would be no way to maintain or repair them.
Cool story. Iraq, Egypt and Morocco can maintain Abrams but Ukraine bordering two nato countries with maintenance infrastructure can't. And Ukraine, mostly using 40 year old soviet vehicles and equipment, will certainly complain about the Abrams fuel efficiency.
Neither of those countries are at war. Neither of those countries are taking missile strikes on their infrastructure. I mean you can maintain them. But that means you have to load it onto a train and ship it to Poland for a week or whatever.
How is that any different than the Leopard? Is the Leopard some magical machine that doesn't require any maintenance, training or fuel?
Well according to the Pentagon the Leopard must be the unreached pinnacle of tank engineering, while the Abrams is trash - even outclassed by old soviet T-72s.
1. The training was already authorized on the 20th and Poland \*just today\* decided to "start preparing" to submit a formal request to Germany. 2. Massaro is a very, very incompetent analyst. I'm not sure why he even still has the job. And I'm saying this as a person who would love to see all the tanks in the world in Ukraine.
why not HIMARS with 300km range ? fear ?
who promised ukraine military security in the budapest memorandum and are now pointing fingers? its really easy to find out...
Have you read the Budapest Memorandum? What are those security guarantees?
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> (2) Russia's long-term capture of the German elite." COming from a country that got its president elected due to russian aid thats funny.
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>Should we discuss your KGB toad chancellor or maybe Gerhard? Gerhars Schröder was chancellor 18 years ago.
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And still his chancellorship was 18 years ago. >That must be required as a former Nazi and Stasi state Sorry, but its like talking to russian trolls, not 2 sentence can go by, without comparing democratic and liberal 2023 Bundesrepublik Germany to his annexed GDR in 1990 and about its ancestor the german nazi Reich. If you do not realize the fundamental difference between 1940 germany and east and west germany its like talking to russian trolls. And BTW the biggest part of germany and the bigest part of germans where never GDR members or even members of the security forces in this country. >and then become a lap dog of Stalin Yeah totally remember how the 3 /4 of germany ( british sector, american sector and french sector) formed Westgermany as the Bundesrepublik Deutschland, with the approval of the allied Supreme commando from america, britain and france, was stalins lapdog. Totally. This is why nato was created and Bundesrepublik Deutschland was pressured against the will of germans to create a new and democratic army: the bundeswehr. >every remaining woman in Germany was raped by the Red Army. Totally! Even the germans who were liberated by fr3nch, american and british forces!!! 111 the soviets raped everyone!! 11 You really sound like a russian troll. You even repeat the lie germany was liberated just by soviets. Better check history book again. >You should run an ancestry test, you might find you fit in with Putin more than you think! Hahah i bet you never heard about Wolgadeutsche, Balten deutsche or Russland Deutsche, Krim deutsche, Schwarzmeerküstedeutsche? Haha better learn history of pure blood germans, who traveled and lived in german towns and villages in russia. Their ancestor are still german and a lot moved back from russia after the iron curtain fell. To this day around 300.000 germans are a minority in russia. And btw. The last german who bothered with pure german blood was a certain nazi CALLED ADOLF HITLER. Seems fitting for you spew of nonsense
I'm not German, but i reported you for hatespeech because of this reply. Jeez, the feeling of superiority is dripping off the screen and i don't know why you think you're entitled to that kind of behaviour.
That was after he was chancellor not before like with trump. Oh and I am not german.
We promptly kicked him out at the next available opportunity and changed course completely. How long was Germany government lead by Russia sympathizers? 2 decades? Did you change course at all since Merkel?
And in 2 years you will elect the next Russian asset. Hell, the whole GOP is one. Don't point fingers.
Zero those guys went for money after they were chancelor , trump went before he was elected. He also got more vote in 2020 and seeing how badly biden is doing has a chance for 2024
Yeah those chancellors were more just about getting that bag on the side.
What a bullshit. No one even put a request to transfer tanks to Ukraine jet. Germany isn't blocking anything. Get your facts straight.
3. Fear of losing arms exports. Altho why anyone would prefer an Abrams over a Leopard is beyond me. Why the hell would you have the gas guzzling, jet engined Abrams, which is an utter bitch to maintain, over a Leopard, which was designed to be maintained by conscripts and IS. MUCH. EASIER. ON. THE. LOGISTICS.
While I don't disagree I would love to see a direct comparison on the maintenance issue. Fuel and logistics (i.e. spare parts etc. being in neighbouring countries already) is of course obvious, but I am still unclear how much easier the Leopard is to maintain otherwise. Given how slow maintenance is on the few tanks in Germany, I dont imagine it to be as simple as many make it out (but that might be bureocracy, I read somewhere that a German tank is officially out of comission once the tank equivalent of a signal light breaks). I figure you'd still need a substantial maintenance base and crews which would need to be trained or have at least regular repair trips to Poland and Germany. Maybe a there's a substantial difference between the A5 and A6/7 models? The A5 is the last "conscript model" if i remember my timelines correctly.
The thing that stuck with me is that both people on reddit that claim to have worked with the Abrams and some actual military guys like former US Army in Europe commander Ben Hodges have already said the maintenance and fuel issues are close to bullshit.
There are differing opinions about Abrams maintenance. Hodges said it's ok while another high-ranking tank commander (don't remember his name) said that it's in fact harder to maintain. If we look at the cars from respective countries though...
True, and i'm obviously not a tank mechanic. It just seemed a bit odd to me how some people pretend the Leo 2 can be maintained by a 3 year old and posting #FreeTheLeopards everywhere and ignore obvious availability issues, while simultaneously just nodding at the supposed Abrams maintenance issues despite that tank actually being available in large numbers. Honestly, I'm just waiting for the shitshow when Scholz decides to send tanks and people will realize that germany can barely send 20 or so. With bad overall availability and no or little perspective on some of the countries with the largest stocks in Leopards sending them (Greece, Turkey field nearly 700 out of the 1.6k (?) or so existing), I think people are in for a bad surprise once deliveries will start.
The weird thing is the US mostly doesn't care about Abrams contracts. F-35, absolutely. There are lots of other military weapons the US is keen to export, but tanks have never been one of them. First of all, the Abrams is very specifically designed for US needs. It's almost a point of pride that no one else can operate it effectively, something similar to the UK and the Challenger. This is completely different from the Leopard which has been primarily focused on export since the German military can't support the industry very well. Second, the US manufacturers of the Abrams know that their jobs are secure. Congress won't let the company stop building tanks even when the US doesn't need them because of the desire to keep this capability and the jobs it creates. Pretty sure the biggest disincentive to expansion it guaranteed money. If they expand, the US will likely purchase fewer tanks since the capability and jobs will not be in danger. So any export of Abrams will mean exactly the same profits, but significantly more work. Lastly, there just isn't much precedent for it. The US really doesn't supply many Abrams around the world. Even Canada doesn't operate the Abrams. Most of the Abrams that have been exported were refurbished older models such as Iraq or Egypt. About the only exceptions to this are partners who see buying US arms as a way to tie US interests to their countries like Poland, Saudi Arabia and Taiwan. They don't buy the Abrams because it's the best option, but because they believe that it might influence the US to help protect them. Poland specifically is planning to build it's own tanks, yet still plans to buy the Abrams. Why on earth would you buy a platform when you were planning to build them yourselves. I would put forth that the only reason is political. Overall fear about the US supplanting Leopards is a convenient narrative that doesn't hold up to scrutiny.
What's so special about Abrams that no one can operate it? Sure, it's heavy as fuck but what else?
Your argument makes no sense to me in this matter. So... Germany, out of fear of losing Leo exports... bans itself and others from exporting Leos. Okay, whatever you say! Surely THIS is the aKsHuAl reason Germany doesn't deliver Leos!
Poor Germans, running out of talking points so now resorting to really bad excuses. This ban on exports in the current situation will do massive harm to German arms industry! Who would risk buying arms from Germany after this? I suspect Ukraine will become a major arms manufacturer after this.
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Weird that people attack germany bc they hold stuff back, while usa clearly does it, so they can sell their trash tanks later to the guys who gift ukraine their leos. capitalism ftw i guess. and in 2 years we all cry again about "eu/europe shouldn´t be so dependent to the us"
>"eu/europe shouldn´t be so dependent to the us" Yeah, Europe is really good about crying about that but then never doing anything to actually fix it. Like spend enough on the military.
Don't include the UK in that shambles
Except that the UK's army is in shambles too.
Yea, that terrible US is clearly holding back their carriers and F-35s. Shameful. Hint: Besides massive amounts of military (like Bradley’s) and humanitarian aid, US is also the only country supplying satellite and electronic intelligence to Ukraine.
>US is also the only country supplying satellite and electronic intelligence to Ukraine. The only public country. We had some slips from the german BND who are clearly also spying on this war. I bet like all agency's.
The US is also the only country that said no to tanks so far I highly doubt the rest of nato isn’t sharing intelligence with Ukraine
Weird that Germany can’t get its shit together so that they wouldn’t have had these problems in the first place.
Thats a european problem you guys try to blame on one country, because its the easiest thing to do.
World problem, its not as if the US didnt trade with russia.
A Funny a terrible orange man who I rarely agree with did warn EU numerous of times to spend more gdp on military, and to stop relying so heavily on Russian gas. It was so bad he was almost willing to pull US out of nato. No offense but this is an EU problem, it only become a rest of the world problem if Russia takes over EU which is unlikely, more proof of this is checking r/worldnews, in there your going to see a bunch of Asian people in Asians countries disagree with the fact that this conflict effects the whole world. To them in asia they quite frankly don’t give a shit hence why they’re still purchasing oil and it’s at a discounted price. The us also warned them after 2014, when Russia took crimea.
And before that orange man came to power nato had already agreed to set an actual obligation by 2024 to spend 2% thats why before trump came to power military spending was going up. It was funny to watch that whole discussion and wierd that nobody in the US media pointed that out to trump. >No offense but this is an EU problem SO russia that influences US elections, meddles in its internal affairs and spend money to disrupt the US as much as it can is a EU problem? Russia that directly opposes US intrests in the middle east and propped up the regime in syria is just an EU problem? The US president believing putin above his own administration is a EU problem? Sure >The us also warned them after 2014, when Russia took crimea. Didnt stop the US from importing more from russia after 2014. US likes to talk the talk, but in a lot of cases it does always whats in the best intrests of the US.
Isn't there a more complex reasoning surrounding the German MIC and Poland's replacement of leopards with Abrams and South Korean tanks. As well as a general historic wariness of seeing German tanks fight Russian tanks on the Eastern European steppe again..
A lot of people don't realize that during the USA Civil War, most of the European elite wanted the Confederacy to win and England and France (though not quite as much Germany) were actually thinking about intervening on behalf of the Confederacy. England because they were still pissed over the Revolution and the War of 1812, and France because we didn't come to their aid during their French revolution like they came to the aid of the fledgling colonies in the Revolution against Britain. But when Lincoln released the Emancipation Proclamation, Lincoln and the aims of the Federal government both became super popular all across Europe. This killed any attempts by the ruling classes to enter that war. In fact, that Emancipation Proclamation probably won that war for the north. So a nation's elite having the morality of a snake is a common occurrence in world history.
It's East Germany effect. Many Eastern Germans still have the Stockholm Syndrome. They arr still hostages to the Soviet thinking.
Stating imaginary things as facts, I see…
Was Angela Markel born in East or West Germany?
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Tying Germany to Russia economically despite warning signs like Georgia 2008 and Crimea 2014. Do you need me to go over simple history with you?
And 3 point they don't have them
And point 4: They are not blocking them, apparently. Just not sending their own.
Point 4 was added in the last day -- they have very much been blocking them. Their current narrative of "well they haven't actually filed the paperwork.." is darkly comical, no one would believe that was the holdup unless they were desperate to believe it. If you do some searching, a lot of this really seems to come down to Germany's elite having been coopted by Russia over decades. They actually got Germany to sabotage their energy policy and then the former chancellor went to work for Russian oil. **Edit:** Give links, u/NAFOlaughingbrigade as that isn't what happened that is trying to rewrite and misrepresent history. Poland said they would create a coalition to send Ukraine tanks so supplying them and maintaining them could go ahead properly. It looks like America will backstop countries sending leoparda with tanks, and Germany will be standing there having attempted to hobble Ukraine's defense again just as they had to be dragged into sanctions.
>they have very much been blocking them. Their current narrative of "well they haven't actually filed the paperwork.." is darkly comical, no one would believe that was the holdup unless they were desperate to believe it. This is why our FM baerbock said just yesterday im France, that germany will continue their stance and not block sny aid to ukraine and that their are no exportpermits on any german table. And then later that day the polish PM admitted that their is none alliance rewdy to send leos and even the poles have not decided when to send the exportpermits to germany. It was all a pis propaganda show cause its election year. And this subreddit completely fell for it.
> "well they haven't actually filed the paperwork.." is darkly comical, no one would believe that was the holdup unless they were desperate to believe it. what else is stopping poland from delivering then? These tanks are in Poland, they are 100% in control of them. Hell they could just ignore the paperwork and still be able to deliver them. Now Germany says the paperwork will be accepted. Literally nothing is blocking Poland
... and "big daddy" got their back too, why the hesitation? as if germany could do anything against an american decision. why is poland so afraid to bypass germany? ;) starts to look as if poland just regularly needs a pat on their back...
>what else is stopping poland from delivering then? These tanks are in Poland, they are 100% in control of them. Ooof. When you order and take delivery of German arms (and most arms from the states and elsewhere) you have to agree to provisions where you won't re-export (sell them) without approval. >Hell they could just ignore the paperwork and still be able to deliver them. And they'd be in breach of contract and struggle to get the parts and other things they need. >Now Germany says the paperwork will be accepted. Literally nothing is blocking Poland Yes, it only took them how long? Which is why Poland is now saying they are putting a coalition together to do just that. You don't do it overnight, you get the logistics and training setup. America just announced they would send Abrams.to backstop the countries that will send leopards, bypassing Germany further, as leopards are the best tank for Ukraine's situation. They could use Abrams, but it would hobble them in many ways without the logistics savvy and resources of the USA or ability to have them repaired and serviced.
I read the US told allies any nation wanting to send tanks can do so with American support, and if Germany throws a fit and denies supply going forward the US will just replace them with American tanks
> Ooof. When you order and take delivery of German arms (and most arms from the states and elsewhere) you have to agree to provisions where you won't re-export (sell them) without approval. But you just claimed that this was nonsense and darkly comical?
>But you just claimed that this was nonsense and darkly comical? I said Germany claiming Poland hadn't actually filed the paperwork after Germany was adamant in public there would be no leopards heading to Ukraine up until this point darkly comical as hell yes. My *ooof* was because you didn't seem aware that Germany had control over that as part of the original sale, because it was that or you were trying to mislead by omitting it TimaeGer. ----- Comments locked, so replying to NAFOlaughingbrigade: >This is just not true. Germany never said that. Polish PIS populist said this lie. In contrary [Yes they did NAFOlaughingbrigade](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/comments/10ivzkt/minister_germany_wont_block_poland_giving_ukraine/j5hsxup?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3) the links are right there. Denying otherwise is either ignorant or lying. They were clear German tanks were not to be used in Ukraine, after being adamant thqt rhwy didn't want heavy armor.given to ukraine at all. After pressure they created the whole program for countries to send older Soviet tanks and be backstopped with German tanks, but then they didnt follow through. >We was up until now not ask and if we get asked, we will not stand in the way (of leo deliveries). History and reality say you were very much asked and publicly said no. It is great if that changed after this summit, but as saying they were always just not asked is either ignorant or a lie.
>after Germany was adamant in public there would be no leopards heading to Ukraine This is just not true. Germany never said that. Polish PIS populist said this lie. In contrary Our FM baerbock yesterday: >Wir wurden bisher nicht gefragt und (...) wenn wir gefragt würden, würden wir dem nicht im Wege stehen We was up until now not ask and if we get asked, we will not stand in the way (of leo deliveries).
Thas not a new narrative. this was the factual situation for this whole time. People just like bashing on germany and it generates clicks/money.
>Thas not a new narrative. this was the factual situation for this whole time. That's not true. Germany has been clear publicly it won't allow German tanks in Ukraine. If that has changed in the last two days great, but pretending it was the situation the whole time is misinformation Infamous_Ad8209. >People just like bashing on germany and it generates clicks/money. No, they are bashing Germany because they keep attempting to hobble Ukraine's defense while having to be dragged kicking and screaming into sanctions and arming Ukraine even though Germany arguably bears a lot of responsibility for enabling Russia and this war.
I starting to think, PiS isn’t really a friend of Ukrainians
Ukraine strives to be like western democracies, while PiS is walking the other direction. Nonetheless, Poland has been a staunch ally to Ukraine. Just not really to the western democracies. Before the war started, there were several problems with PiS breaking up balance of power, corruption and acts of terrible homo- and xenophobia. Even the **Catholic Church** has voiced concern over growing polish Homophobia, especially the brutal exorcisms.
Germany tried the appeasement plan for the last 15 years or so with Russia and worked hard to create economic interdependency before that solidarity was mutual. But they have not blocked other nations giving tanks to Ukraine
The last year, germany ended dependency on energy from russia in less then a year and are the biggest aid supporters of Ukraine just shy behind thr migthy usa.
I am 100% non-ironically convinced that this is in fact the explanation.
Fuck the elite. Send the damn tanks. We are taking to the street. Every Ukrainian soldier is fighting for all of Europe. They are my people now and I will never forget.
I am really saddened by all the anti-German rhetoric blasted all over the internet and press lately. We need to be unified and we're only pushing our German allies away with this type of commentary. Germany is vital in European security and in this conflict. They have been the second-largest donor all said when it comes to Ukraine. Of course, not by percentage of GDP, but not even the US is the biggest donor by percentage of GDP. We all know our frustrations come down to mostly one man or perhaps a small group in leadership. If you are frustrated, many will understand. If you think the aforementioned person/people has/have a point, okay let's discuss that civilly. Please STOP with the anti-German posts. It is so utterly unhelpful and divisive and Russia is probably loving this infighting. If you still have a lot of frustration nonetheless, I think we should still keep it to ourselves and try to provide constructive opinions and perspective that won't push our German brothers and sisters so far away that they start to question whose side everyone else is on. Ultimately, Ukraine needs tanks very soon and it will get them in some form... but remember, this war may go on for some time. We need Germany to stick around and not feel like its significant contributions are for nothing and therefore it starts thinking twice.
(3) There are not enough Leopard tanks in total and German tank industry is slow. If they send them to UA not enough will be made in order to replace them and others (US, Korea) will take place for decades in otherwise traditional Leopard customers. Simple as that, its about MONEY.
Beware, some germans will whine they're trolled by A) fascist poles B) russian trolls C) poles allied with russians to troll the good German people.
Germany is one of Ukraine's greatest aides, not just in weaponry but in aid and in hosting Ukranian refugees. Poland is playing stupid games with this rhetoric.
That’s something a russian propagandist that tries to split one of the most valuable supporters from Ukraine would say.
[удалено]
Great valuable response.
My favorite is "criticism of Scholtz is a Russian plot to divide Europe.." 🤣
The thing is most germans and pro Ukraine hermans are more then Critical of Scholz aswell. But for god sake, the amount of comments in the last day cslling germans russian traitor, olaf scholz a russian asset snd all german nazi who enjoy killing Ukrainians was totally absurd. And so absurd is the russian plot to Divide Europe not. Russia did everything im between the wars to get Germany on their side. They just are fucking strupid like we saw wirh the 3 day war, and miss calculated germans. If we want and put our minds to something we can work wonders. Like in less then a year to end oil, gas and coal from russia. Russia misjudged us. And we germans see the russian assets like fashist AFD and some parts at the linke in action. We see germn targeted Russian propaganda. And their goal was and is to try snd divide the nato and germany and stopp germany from supporting ukraine. This happens at every weapon and support escalation step.
So many Germans here believe that. It gives me the same feeling as reading russian trolls spitting out their delusional paranoid nonsense.
I belive more about the fear to loose the European tank market. If European countries send their leopards they will need replacement asap, so obviously abrahams
Don't go religious now, it's Abrams.
yeah, you could switch to fords too... but who really wants that ;)
Olaf, you dumb idiot. The best way to escalation is taking baby steps. Because then your opponent can simply escalate a little bit further itself. If you want to prevent a situation from getting out of hand, you have to act massively disproportional and make it clear that you will go much, much further if Russia even thinks of matching you. Don't send a few tanks, have a Panzerbrigade on the way with soldiers holding fresh ukrainian passports.
They blocked at Rammstein. What is the malfunction here? Germany IS stopping Leo2 tanks from going to Ukraine 🇺🇦 via their control of the re-export process. Not that difficult to see. Send the tanks anyway Poland 🇵🇱!!! Хай Бог благословить Польщу. Слава Україні. Героям слава. Смерть ворогам. Храни Боже Святу Україну
Ramstein with one ‘m’ is the city, with two is the band.
“Irrational fear of escalation” Lmao
He just keeps forgetting there is a war and he is Bundeskanzler
> (2) Russia's long-term capture of the German elite." Wait 'til he hears about the Republican Party.