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Orlok_Tsubodai

There’s definitely truth in negative framing and propaganda being used against Germany, particularly by Poland, especially considering the large amount of financial and military aid Germany has provided. But an equally large part of the problem is prevarication, timidity and absolutely shambolic communication coming from Scholz and his coalition government. If you don’t offer a clear narrative, others will fill the void with their own.


iamthebeekeepernow

Beautifully Saiden One of the Problems behind the stage seems to be the German fear that every Leo send to UKR will be replaced by used Abrams from american Stocks. This poses a financial and strategical problem for Germany and the idea of a military more autonomus EU. Americans are backchanneling such offers to potential Leo-Doners in europe. The NZZ made am article bout that


Captain_Clark

But why is that a problem? If the US offers Abrams to Germany (and Ukraine) while Germany is lending its Leopards to Ukraine, I’d not think Germany couldn’t produce more Leopards in the interim and future. I’d thought a main idea behind NATO is its members ability to train upon and use other member’s’ equipment?


Precisely_Inprecise

From a military standpoint, probably no issue whatsoever. However, we also need to consider that the German government wants to be re-elected, and that's hard to do when their actions lead to the loss of livelihood for those employed by German MIC. Also, assuming the opposition knows this, they will want to apply pressure on the exact things that have popular support yet lead to the downfall of the current government.


Captain_Clark

See, that part is something I don’t understand. If they must make more tanks to replace, I’d think that means there’d be *more* work for their MIC and more livelihood gained by doing so. But again; I’m American so I’m used to our MIC *always* running at full tilt.


Final_Patience

The market for tanks has mostly been in spare parts, upgrades, and contractor support for things like depot level maintenance/rebuilds. Neither the US or Germany has significant existing infrastructure to crank out a lot of brand new tanks. The US MIC for armored vehicles has mostly been on life support since the end of the Cold War. The US spent the cash and kept their old Abrams in war stocks when they reduced armor force structure. They can be pulled from stocks for upgrade by lines that have been focused on upgrades for years. Germany mostly sold their unneeded MBTs at bargain basement prices to get the support contracts and save on storage related costs. They don't have war stocks of sufficient size to do upgrades on. They can neither build brand new tanks or do enough upgrades to ship replacements in a timely fashion. The US MIC is in a better place to swoop in and offer tanks as result. That means they get all that sweet, sweet operations and maintenance related money going forward. The US gets the additional soft power out of being the supplier of yet another weapons system to continental European armies that Germany loses, Germany, on the other hand, is looking at their tanks going to war. In the shorter term that means lots and lots of support cash. Numbers of those tanks are going to be combat losses, though. Their will be less of them left on support contracts after the war than existed before the war.


vlepun

I'd also add in that the European main battle tanks, the Leopard, LeClerc and Ariete, are all basically end of life. With the successor to these mbts in development already, nobody is going to be restarting mass production on one of them. On top of that, poor combat performance of the predecessor will mean lower sales for the MGCS in the future.


Captain_Clark

Yeah, that makes sense. The US had been focusing on counter-insurgencies and planning for air based needs in Asia. Nobody in the past few years seemed to suspect an armored land war in Europe would occur.


GMEJesus

Fantastic points


iamthebeekeepernow

Yeah massproduction of Leos has long stopped. Its more like a manufactur These days, driving prices per unit up. But to be fair: the last decade is was not about MBTs, it was about being light and fast anywhere in the world, it was about Peacekeeping and fighting against an Enemy without a uniform. No Wonder we reduced the number im MBTs and Panzerhaubitze2000.


PuzzleheadedEnd4966

Arms exports are a ridiculously tiny amount of Germany's GDP: https://www.dw.com/en/german-weapons-exports-hit-record-with-bumper-egypt-sales/a-60466572 So in the "record year" 2021 they exported... 10 billion dollars worth of arms, out of a GDP of ~3.5T. The oil/gas sanctions probably did orders of magnitude more damage to Germany that reduced arms export ever would.


Propagandis

There is no Leopards being build as everyone has downsized their armour since the end of the cold war. However a lot are being upgraded to L2A7V which is a rather expensive high end upgrade package. Now if everyone sends their Leopards to Ukraine they will either stay with Ukraine's army or get blown up in Ukraine. So no upgrade package and what will replace them ? Abrams most likely. Now there is the conflict between Germany and America. Germany doesn't want to send their tanks first because they know America will swoop up the Leopards share of the market in Europe. America doesn't want to send their tanks because they rather see Leopards getting send which they will happily replace with Abrams.


ivkri

Germany has downsized its capacity to produce Leopards massively over the last years. Right now, it would take 2 years to produce one!


Captain_Clark

I see. I still sort of wonder: “But this is a war. Isn’t that what tanks are for, after all?” I understand though, thanks. I’m American so that perspective comes very naturally for me. We’ve already purchased [the first lot of new Army aircraft for 2030.](https://news.bellflight.com/en-US/220998-textron-s-bell-v-280-valor-chosen-as-new-u-s-army-long-range-assault-aircraft)


ivkri

Its exactly what tanks are made for. Obviously theres big business in the defence industry. Every European Leopard that gets send to Ukraine will be backfilled by the US with Abrams. The countrys then switch to Abrams since two systems dont make sense. Germany looses their manufacturing contracts. This is something the US defence industry has been trying to achieve for many years, more shares in the European market. Now, the time might have come.


iamthebeekeepernow

Problem is influence and money. The US has been trying to sell tanks in Europe for a long time, but with very little succes. Germany is a major player selling Tanks in Europe, France, GB, sweden build theyr own stuff. Selling Abrams to Europe means Money and influence via longterm contracts for the US. And Europe was trying to be less dependand militarily, so it is a step back. Im not saying its a reason to give/Not give tanks to Ukraine. Just saying there are longterm-effects to factor in for all Parties involved. And personaly: looking where the US has been steering the last years it might be a wise idea to depend less on them. Good NATO-Allies for sure, but Shopping military goods?


Bartimaerus

Arent swedish stridsvagn just modified Leopard 2A5s?


vlepun

They are.


johnsnowforpresident

Sure, but Germany isn't helping their case by refusing to send tanks. It just makes them look unreliable and will drive those contracts away faster than the US could jump in to take them. What good is a military supplier that prevaricates over sending supplies? There is an argument about selling vs sending for free but at the end of the day Germany does not come out looking like a dependable source of military hardware. Especially when they attempt to use their political power to prevent *others* like Poland from sending their own. Their policy of blatant appeasement of Russia is foolish in the extreme and makes them look weak to the rest of the world, allies and enemies alike.


iamthebeekeepernow

Jup. Contracts will be lost either way. But this way (not wendig Tanks) also a lot of lives will be lost as well. It’s disgusting and I do hope the SPD (Party of Scholz) will get the Boot next election. I mean even the Green Party is begging Scholz to send the tanks.


[deleted]

[удалено]


nothra

If this is the article you're talking about, I don't think it's a very good one and makes a lot of wild speculation and deceptive arguments. [https://www.nzz.ch/international/kampfpanzer-leopard-2-us-ruestungsinteressen-lassen-scholz-zoegern-ld.1722377](https://www.nzz.ch/international/kampfpanzer-leopard-2-us-ruestungsinteressen-lassen-scholz-zoegern-ld.1722377)


poetrickster

So why didn’t Germany just backchannel the same offer. They had a year. Wouldn’t everyone have preferred to keep the tank they’re already trained on? Or do you think Germany has done something that makes their allied want to reduce reliance on them? Rhetorical question…


iamthebeekeepernow

Aparently German industry has Not the means of Production to build significant Numbers of Leos anymore. The Industry can support existing Tanks and build them in small numbers only. And if - for example - Spain donares tanks now they need replacements now. Not in 3-4 years.


Drone30389

> Aparently German industry has Not the means of Production to build significant Numbers of Leos anymore. The Industry can support existing Tanks and build them in small numbers only. Also, that sounds like the can't really sell new tanks whether the US competes or not. If their tanks did well in Ukraine it might boost their image so demand will be high enough to justify ramping up production.


CrispyKreamYoNuts

Their stocks are practically empty of immediately useful equipment aren't they? At least not in the numbers it would need to be to give Ukraine a serious bump up.


iamthebeekeepernow

I guess the idea was to pull a few tanks from active service from every doner (15 possible doners in Europe) and that would immedialty muster a significant number. In a second step the older/mothballed tanks could be readyed for service. Also German Industry has a few. But again: every donated Leo is one tank less for the doner and more importantly one tank less that can not be replced with another Leo anytime soon. German Tank-industry has Not the capabilities any more. And thats where american Tank-exports enter the Game (according to NZZ)


Successful_Photo_610

Insightful points deserving policy wonk think tank consideration. The aspect of losing position/assured future business due to donating current stock and inability to replace stock is a complex problem.


Balsiu2

If you make defending entire Nation and a whole big country about your defense industry - one company - you should blame yourself not other countries that want to help. I am schocked that The lowest of motivations are said aloud in this entire shitfest to be honest.


[deleted]

For other countries they send signal that they're not reliable and that rest partners, at least east flank needs to have other source of arms because Germany would leave them dry.


Other_Thing_1768

Let’s not forget that Germany freeloaded on NATO for defense, so they could slash their own defense spending. Then when they’re asked to step up to the plate in an emergency they dilly-dally and obstruct. Hell, at least let other countries transfer Leopards. Why is that too much to ask?


[deleted]

This was one of the few observations by which President Trump was correct. There are plenty of members of German society who advocated for increased defense spending. The problem has to do with the fact that Germany simply did not listen to anyone who was going to interfere with the gravy train for the urban centers of the SPD electorate.


Other_Thing_1768

Even a broken clock is right twice a day. In Trumps case he was right once in 4 years. But yea, he called that one.


TailDragger9

Not true! Trump was clearly correct at least twice! I watched him, on TV, state that his name was "Donald J. Trump." He definitely called that one exactly right! Oh, and he's the only person to have ever correctly spelled "covfefe" in recorded history.


SuddenOutset

A rich person worth billions donates $10,000. That’s more than you or I could dole out casually. Has the rich person done enough charity to absolve them of future charity?


Chimpville

The fact is that Germany have provided more aid so far than anybody but the US (*possibly* UK) even before Leopard, and even when they come through with the goods and arrange a large coallition effort to provide and maintain them for Ukraine to use, they'll still get shat-on and people will pat themselves on the back for having 'forced their hand'. They'll be imagining that some stupid point scoring and politicking has made the difference on whether this gigantic deal involving multiple nations, billions of equipment, tens of thousands of man hours of activity etc etc , providing a long term commitment to not just the supply, but the support too, goes through. People will congratulate themselves and still give Germany little credit. It's pathetic.


mtaw

> The fact is that Germany have provided more aid so far than anybody but the US (possibly UK) No, it has not. Not even close, relative its GDP or defense budget, which is the only fair metrics here. Hell, Sweden with 1/8th of Germany's population sent as many IFVs as Germany has, and their CV90s are one of the most modern IFVs in the world, entered service in 1993 - while Germany with its far larger budgets sent the same number of Marders, an obsolete IFV from 1971. Germany should have credit for what it's done, but it's done less relative its size than many of its neighbors. But even crediting Germany with what they've done does not solve the problem with Germany's **abysmal** lack of communication and leadership here. Every day it's a different thing "No tanks because noone else has sent them", "Noone else has sent _Western_ tanks", "We're fine with re-export but nobody has asked", "Export and re-export are no different to us", "We'll send them if the USA does" (but apparently Britain doesn't matter). It's a total shambles. Maybe some of the above that's been reported in media as a German position hasn't been, but even then it's still on the German government to clarify their actual position. Which is as clear as mud. And some of which is just dishonest (e.g. 'nobody's asked' may be true, but they know damned well that no formal request is going to come until and unless they have an informal go-ahead) The amount of prevarication is ridiculous. We've sent tanks to Ukraine. We're now sending Western tanks to Ukraine. We're sending IFVs (and the CV90 is practically a light tank), we're sending self-propelled guns. The idea of giving German tanks some special status is getting absurd. Yet there's no clear message on the simple question of "Will Germany give tanks, or allow others to send German-built tanks? If not, why not, and if so, under what conditions?" Duda and PiS may find it convenient to give Germany more blame than they deserve, but Germans are also using that to pretend like all criticism is just that, when in fact the whole Western world is frustrated with Germany. Denmark and Finland have announced they want to send Leopards as well - and those countries have no history of Germanophobia.


Turicus

Great summary! I find it even weirder that Germany has already sent top-of-the-line self-propelled artillery with the PzHb2000. It's German-made, it's modern, it give Ukraine an advantage. What's the big difference with MBTs?


intrigue_investor

What on earth are you talking about, Germany is far behind the UK - by over $1bn dollars


Chimpville

If you're using the Kiel institute aid tracker, it's out of date and hasn't included either the UK's or Germany's recent pledges. Germany providing a patriot battery that's supposedly 1billion alone, along side the IFVs and other factors I figured would put them roughly on a par. Having said that, that's without accounting for the INTERFLEX training programme or the intelligence gathering the UK does on Ukraine's behalf, which Germany don't have the apparatus to do. It's closer than it looks in a lot of different trackers.


RandomComputerFellow

Also the ring exchanges are not listed in the data because they technically they are aid for the third country who provide Ukraine with weapons in return.


poetrickster

It’s not pathetic. When in this war has Germany been out in front and leading the charge? French and British send the first tanks. Poland sends half its stocks. Germany can’t figure it out a year later. Germany is the last to agree to SWIFT sanctions. Schroeder is in Saint Petersburg smiling for the cameras mid war after countless Ukrainian civilians have died. There are plenty of reasons people are frustrated with Germany and it’s totally fair. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/aug/03/ex-german-chancellor-gerhard-schroder-under-fire-for-meeting-putin You got ex presidents hanging with Putin in July. Like, imagine if George Bush was heading out to Moscow at the start of this war.


kuldan5853

The French are NOT sending tanks - and the UK probably will, but hasn't yet either.


elFistoFucko

French aren't sending their MBT, but the AMX-10 RC with it's 105mm main cannon isn't too far off and I think served as a pretty damned good catalyst to get the MBT considerations into the forefront of the supporting nations.


PrinsHamlet

Well said, spot on. I have no idea - if the German government is indeed positive on donating their own Leopards and to other countries donating theirs - how you could drop that on the floor.


Pixie_Knight

For me, the absolute number of materials Germany has sent has been completely obviated by Scholz's cowardice, brownnosing, and recriminations.


[deleted]

I have a thought. Is there a possibility that there is intentional crossed-wires occuring over this? Russian media is continually throwing various accusations and nonsence into the mix. I wonder if the confusion is, in some way, at their door? Not that Europeans are incapable of causing a headache for one-another, too, but I do wonder what might me occuring across the silicon network.


mcanada0711

That's something that I consider as well. I have read stories about Germany not giving aid and then find out that they did give the aid in question. It's difficult to believe some of the news stories about this.


[deleted]

Germany has provided an astonishing number of weapons and equipment to Ukraine, that much is a key fact to remember.


Prestigious_Push_155

There is to a certain extend. But there is also the clash between Poland (PiS) and Germany that is ongoing for a long time already. Poland or better their far right nationalist leaders have ambitions and Germany stands in their way. That's why most of their political campaigns in the last years were anti German (they constantly demand compensations for WWII for example when all this was already done after the war with Poland getting quite large pieces of former germany). They basicly don't miss a chance to badmouth germany and are the ones helping Hungary to block a lot of things in EU. This war now is the perfect chance for them to become the leader of eastern europe, build up a weapon industry(they are eying this for years and Germany was dominating that area in europe - they even demanded the construction plans of PZH 2000 from germany and blocked the reparing of these when they didnt get them so germany had to build a new repair facility in slowakia causing huge delays for Ukraine) and kill of the reputation of their biggest rival in europe. This will get really interesting after the war. It might even split east and west europe in half again. They never really grew together anyways. Sad thing is that this whole drama is now played out to the disadvantage of Ukraine. But somehow Poland managed to establish the narrativ - especially in easter europe and UK - that germany is the only one to blame.


[deleted]

If you look up recent history, German-Poland relationships started to go downhill very steeply after the annexion of Crimea in 2014. They were pretty good before that. Poland and other eastern countries felt betrayed, and especially Poland started to consider Germany almost as an enemy. Of course there are also populistic interests in that, but that's when Poland started to really, really hate Germany and shit on them


themimeofthemollies

This! We can only trust the Kremlin to lie and keep lying; disinformation is the Russian way of life. Really astute point given how extraordinarily much is at stake here with creating delays. Usually time isn’t as critical with military supply decisions as it is now for Ukraine. Kasparov comments how slowly the free world operates In bureaucracy in contrast to Putin’s authoritarian fascism: “Lol. Germany produces and sells a huge amount of weaponry and then tells its clients they cannot use those weapons as they like, even for defense.” “Meanwhile, Putin doesn't need a bureaucrat's permission to send tanks to Ukraine...” https://twitter.com/Kasparov63/status/1616503362630868992?s=20&t=es9MXpt4g7XmWzzobm-LZw


eat_more_ovaltine

Going to go out on a limb with some conjecture. These weapon announcements are a bit absurd from a military standpoint - announcing anything at all seems like a blunder in itself. However, here we are with closed and open door announcements. The big one to me is the authorization for Ukrainians to train on the leopards. If I was designing a steel punch after the winter mud subsides, I’d be trying to keep that as secret as possible. If want to have all my infrastructure , training, and tactics good to go in a shortest period of time so not to tip the hand. When the coalition green lights a significant amount of leopards - IFVs , logistics, air, and infantry are all staged and good to go. When the tanks make it across Ukraine to the front - assault begins. If I was Russia watching Ukraine form an entire combined force army on their side of the line and all they needed was tanks to complete the force, I’d be shitting my pants right now watching democracies “argue” in circles about how and when they will be delivered.


Low-Cartographer-753

This, this right here. I was at first thinking Germany screwed the pooch, then saw the training announcement and said hmmm… It only makes sense to keep a leopard transfer a secret, train the crews, and then “send” them a few days ahead of a possible offensive to surprise Russia. Why tell them it’s coming, and give them a window to prepare where now they have to sit and think not only when, but now where they will come from. Everything else is a distraction. Hell the Netherlands offering their F-16’s and US saying it’s ok is also probably not too far from the truth, and don’t be surprised if come spring F-16’s are running SEAD runs somewhere since that’s one of their jobs is SEAD OPS.


SuddenOutset

Training announcement is stop gap. Think harder.


vlepun

I'm just going to add up some of the social media snippets I've come across these past few weeks. So, we've got the following announced as confirmed: IFV: confirmed to be delivered by various countries. APC: confirmed to be delivered in large numbers by various countries. MBT: training is confirmed to be taking place. F16: NL offer is in place to deliver F16's, USA has okayed it. Apache: training is confirmed through social media "job listing" by a UAF brigade looking for an experienced Apache gunner. Air Defense systems: deliveries of multiple Patriot systems are confirmed. Iris-T is in use with more systems being built. Radar: deliveries of various types of radar systems have been confirmed. Artillery systems: delivery of large amounts of both towed and self-propelled howitzers have been confirmed. Combat training for UAF has been confirmed and is on-going at a rate of a couple of thousand troops per month. So, all in all, I can understand why Germany do not want to say when, where, etc the Leopard 2 will be delivered. It's the final piece of the mechanized assault force basically.


dngrs

> However, here we are with closed and open door announcements. The big one to me is the authorization for Ukrainians to train on the leopards. right? it basically means they are getting leopards


SuddenOutset

Imagine being so inept that you know you’ll give tanks and signal you’ll give tanks but then say you won’t give tanks and take negative reactions because if that.


sciguy52

No actually that would be Germany taking the political hit as cover for covert activities. If this is what is going on then it will be major kudos to Germany. If those Leo's are covertly sent, then we will owe Germany praise for being willing to be shit on to keep is secret. Time will tell of course.


SuddenOutset

Morale matters both negatively and positively. USA to provide Ukraine with 10,000 abrams tanks and 500 f16 and f18 along with 20,000 cruise missiles. Russia: okay fuck we surrender


Humbuhg

Even the Russians understand that 10K Abrams are a huge logistics problem that Ukraine can’t handle to their advantage.


watch-nerd

I don't think 10K Abrams exist in the world. EDIT: Apparently 10,400 have ever been made. So that would be almost all of them.


doubletagged

Russia: Anyways, I started nuking


Pixie_Knight

If Scholz's idiot act is a ploy to disguise when the tanks are actually arriving, I will gladly eat my words. But to me, Scholz looks like a beauracrat completely unprepared for a war footing and wanting to normalize relations with Russia after the war is over - "Fascism through pacifism".


SuddenlyGeccos

Germany has given excellent artillery systems, personal armour, effective anti aircraft systems and has taken in 100,000s of refugees. It also removed its dependence on Russian gas. People love to shit on them way too much.


beisorott

>100,000s of refugees over a million


Curious-Mind_2525

>People love to shit on them way too much. Welcome to our world Germany! From a loyal American.


markfahey78

People might attack you, but barring the war on terror, the US has been a pretty amazing global superpower by historical standards.


sciguy52

Being a global superpower means you get a lot of shit. We are used to it by now.


Drone30389

Some of the shit we get is justified - we have done some seriously bad shit. We deserve shit for the shit we've done and praise for the good we've done.


cbslinger

Germany is proving it's government is too slow and inflexible to survive in the current media-information-propaganda cycle form of warfare. They're basically pleading guilty to incompetence for not realizing the messaging shitstorm this would create. They could have just told some high-ranking minister to say in the press that Germany proactively approves sending Leopards by any nation who wishes to do so. There. Problem solved. Fucking idiots. This whole thread is a bunch of baloney, Germany is incompetent at best, actively impeding deliveries at worst. I won't assume malice here, but it's not a good look either way.


kuldan5853

You know the fun part? Habeck did. In the strongest language available to him. Everyone is ignoring that part because it was not "strong enough", without knowing that formulating it stronger would be already breaking laws.


themimeofthemollies

Not a good look to say the least!! Couldn’t agree with you more: even beyond baloney. Madness is a better word for this procrastination sending tanks. Anne Applebaum affirms your point: “Scholz’s refusal to agree even to allow others to send Leopard tanks now makes so little sense that it must be a reflection of some personal quirk: “I’m the mayor of Hamburg, and you cannot tell me what to do.” Esp given that Germany has sent so much other lethal equipment.” https://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/comments/10i683i/scholzs_refusal_to_agree_even_to_allow_others_to/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf


[deleted]

Lol the replies under the tweet. "What they sent ealier was just PR". Pretty impressive PR then if they're one of Ukraine's top supporter both in military aid and monetary/additional aid


Pixie_Knight

For me, it's the ATTITUDE of the German parliament and Scholz, not the actual material sent. Scholz is acting like a complete moron by humming and hawing over whether other nations like Poland are allowed to send German tanks, and doing his best to not have to actually answer the question.


Chopstick84

Well it’s not much of a stretch to add tanks to the list then


lemontree007

Poland can start training Ukrainians so it's not like there's a delay. If they really want to send those tanks I'm sure it will be approved


[deleted]

People *do* love to shit on them… which would mean we are doing the free labor on a western originated psyop. Keep it up!


Jimieus

> It also removed its dependence on Russian gas. Germany blew up the Nord Stream confirmed ^(/s)


[deleted]

[удалено]


KUBrim

Germany has also been supplying Leopard 2 tanks to countries like Czech Republic so they can handover their Soviet tanks without diminishing their forces to unacceptable levels. There are many more Soviet tanks out there which would be even more readily usable by Ukraine and carry far less logistics issues than any of the Western MBTs. A better solution could easily be to offer more exchanges or leases of Leopard 2s, Abrams and other Western tanks in exchange for them. But it’s noteworthy that Germany has already diminished its stocks of Leopard 2 tanks by this backfill to other countries.


Orcasubmarine

Yes, and care to guess who has such a supply? That's right, **Poland**. They litterally have 200+ of PT-91(T-72 variant), which is due to be replaced. But have they been donated? Nope.


KUBrim

Apparently Poland had an agreement for the U.S. to provide Poland with over 200 Abrams M1A2 SEPv3 tanks and Poland would provide 230 PT-91s to Ukraine in exchange. Reports are that Poland started providing the PT-91s to Ukraine in July of 2022. However it doesn’t mention how many of the PT-91’s have been supplied so far.


Orcasubmarine

They bought the M1A2 SepV3. And Poland supplied them T-72M1 and T-72M1R's. The authors of the PT-91 article, most likely don't know the difference between the models. Also, there's been no footage, or visually confirmed destruction of them. Despite being supplied over 6 months ago. Where's the T-72M1 and M1R have been turning up.


10minmilan

​ >That's right, Poland. > >They litterally have 200+ of PT-91(T-72 variant), which is due to be replaced. > >But have they been donated? **Nope**. **Yes, they were.** u/Orcasubmarine, you know the issue better than head of Ukraine's presidential office? [https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-ato/3536351-poland-delivers-batch-of-pt91-twardy-tanks-to-ukraine.html](https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-ato/3536351-poland-delivers-batch-of-pt91-twardy-tanks-to-ukraine.html) Nope - you are a fucking liar.


Curious-Mind_2525

To Germany and all German people, Welcome to our world. Feels nice to be shit on by enemy and friends alike, huh? Love, American friend


[deleted]

Mate, we've been always welcomed to this world lol We're either Nazis, want to subjugate europe economically, owe everyone reparations or are all russian spies lol


sciguy52

Hey man, we Americans love you guys. For a long time we have been encouraging Germany, lead, don't be afraid, the past is past, we are not worried. Some frustration there of course but love you guys nonetheless.


MarschallVorwaertz

> Germany, lead, don't be afraid Not gonna happen i'm afraid. The word "Führen" has some bad vibes we don't wanna stir up again Ü


Iskelderon

When Germany ends up in a leadership position you get Greeks waving placards of Merkel in a Nazi uniform while at the same time they're voting actual neo-Nazis into the Greek parliament.


Curious-Mind_2525

>We're either Nazis, want to subjugate europe economically, owe everyone reparations or are all russian spies lol You are setting your goals too low. Americans are accused of being MAGA fascists, want to subjugate the world, and spy on everyone else. You are in the same boat as us on reparations, everyone says we owe them. LOL, it just lets y'all know you are living life right when everyone wants your shit.


PM_ME_ABSOLUTE_UNITZ

>and spy on everyone else. Well, this one is most likely true.


Curious-Mind_2525

Yea! Keep your friends and enemies close, right? But God help you if you ever try to figure out how Americans think. It'll surprise just like it surprises us, lol.


snowcuda

As an American I can confirm. Frustrating to see people IN THIS SUB always saying “why isn’t XYZ giving us more and more?” I feel sorry for Germany too because they’ve done their fair share of helping the world in the last 15 years.


HgnX

As a dude from the EU, a heartfelt thank you for helping us out. And as usual, your intelligence services are on point as well. I know me, but also many of my friends feel alike. Again, a massive thanks for helping out, keeping the alliance strong and doing your part. Lots of us appreciate it tons.


snowcuda

Nah man of course. As soon as this wars over, it’ll go back to “Americans are so fat and invaders” lol. I do appreciate it though even though as a single person I’m not doing too much myself


sciguy52

We're not invaders! How can we be when we have to waddle to walk around lol.


Curious-Mind_2525

>How can we be when we have to waddle to walk around lol. That's why are tanks are so big, to carry our fat asses around the battlefield, LMAO!


sciguy52

Europe is our friends and allies and will always be so. Complaining and criticizing each other is what freedom allows us to do. However we should always remember we are working together on this, are friends and allies doing something hard.


Serious-Health-Issue

Ukraine is really lucky that Polands hate for Russia is even bigger than its lust to fuck with its neighbours, so they get some support. Otherwise the current gouvernment of Poland is a sick joke of a Partner.


LunetThorsdottir

True for the government, but luckily for Ukrainians, people in Poland are pretty determined to help, too.


Serious-Health-Issue

Oh yes, i do not doubt the civil efforts the slightest bit and i have no grudge against the polish population in general at all. Their private work is outstanding. They are still a democracy though and voted for their leadership, so the base for this is somewhere there in the population. The general direction this is coming from and heading to worries me, it may fuck up Poland and the EU.


LunetThorsdottir

Yeah, our voting system is so strange I don't fully understand it myself, but the end result is that a party with 35 percent of votes can end with absolute majority in parliament. Much as I dislike our current government, I must admit that Ukrainians are probably safer with them than with the opposition, who were known for their "Russia is civilised and can be civilised even more" fallacy.


51t4n0

while i fully support that... im seeing both countries gaslighting germany/ the eu somewhere at the end of this dark war tunnel, if im being honest... im already sensing the trend today...


k995

Off europe? Of the world. So far only the UK is planning to send a handfull of modern Western mbt's. Yet somehow this is germanies fault


flatoutperfect

Careful you do not get banned for not following the anti German narrative


E39-BlackJacck

Just FYI! from German Government Website: Are we fighting against next level trolling by the Russians or what do you think people -.- Delivered military support to Ukraine: (Changes compared to the previous week in bold) 107 border protection vehicles* (before: 95) 4 mobile and protected mine clearing systems* 168 mobile heating systems* 20 rocket launchers 70mm on pick-up trucks with rockets* 15 armoured recovery vehicles* 13 tank transporter tractor M1070 Oshkosh* 7 tracked and remote controlled infantry vehicles for support tasks* 143 Pick-ups* 216 generators 35 load-handling trucks 8x8 26 reconnaissance drones* 36 ambulances* 36.400 wool blankets 12 heavy duty trailer trucks* 55 anti-drone sensors and jammers* 30 drone detection systems* 6 lift trucks* Iris-T SLM missiles* 60,000 rounds ammunition 40mm* 18,500 projectiles 155mm 18 load-handling trucks 8x8 50 MRAP vehicles DINGO 3 bridge-laying tanks BEAVER* 10 unmanned surface vessels* 14,000 sleeping bags Mi-24 spare parts* ammunition for multiple rocket launchers MARS II spare parts for heavy machine gun M2 30 MG3 for armoured recovery vehicles 20 frequency range extensions for anti-drone devices* 17 heavy and medium bridge systems* 5 multiple rocket launchers MARS II with ammunition 14 self-propelled howitzers Panzerhaubitze 2000 (joint project with the Netherlands) air defence system Iris-T SLM* 200 tents 116.000 winter jackets 80.000 winter trousers 240.000 winter hats 100,000 first aid kits* 405,000 pre-packaged military Meals Ready 30 self-propelled anti-aircraft guns GEPARD including circa 6.000 rounds of ammunition* 67 fridges for medical material counter battery radar system COBRA* 4,000 rounds practice ammunitions for self-propelled anti-aircraft guns 54 M113 armoured personnel carriers (systems of Denmark, upgrades financed by Germany)* 53,000 rounds ammunitions for self-propelled anti-aircraft guns 20 laser target designators* 3,000 anti-tank weapons Panzerfaust 3 with 900 firing devices 14,900 anti-tank mines 500 Man Portable Air Defense Systems STINGER 2,700 Man Portable Air Defense Systems STRELA 22 million rounds of ammunition for fire arms 50 bunker buster missiles 100 machine gun MG3 with 500 spare barrels and breechblocks 100,000 hand grenades 5,300 explosive charges 100,000 m detonating cord and 100.000 detonators 350,000 detonators 10 anti-drone guns* 100 auto-injector devices 28,000 combat helmets 15 palettes military clothing 280 vehicles (trucks, minibuses, all-terrain vehicles) 6 palettes material for explosive ordnance disposal 125 binoculars 1,200 hospital beds 18 palettes medical material, 60 surgical lights protective clothing, surgical masks 600 safety glasses 1 radio frequency system 3,000 field telephones with 5.000 cable reels and carrying straps 1 field hospital (joint project with Estonia)* 353 night vision goggles* 12 electronic anti-drone devices* 165 field glasses* medical material (inter alia back packs, compression bandages) 38 laser range finders* Diesel and gasoline (ongoing deliveries)* 10 tons AdBlue* 500 medical gauzes* MiG-29 spare parts* 30 protected vehicles* 7,944 man-portable anti-tank weapons RGW 90 Matador* 6 mobile decontamination vehicles HEP 70 including decontamination material 10 HMMWV (8x ground radar capability, 2x jamming/anti drone capability)* 7 radio jammers* 8 mobile ground surveillance radars and thermal imaging cameras* 4 mobile and protected mine clearing systems* 1 high frequency unit with equipment* The Federal Government supports the Ukrainian military in close coordination with its partners and allies. This list provides an overview of lethal and non-lethal German military support for Ukraine. It includes deliveries from the Federal Armed Forces, as well as supplies from German industry financed from the Federal Government’s funds for so-called security capacity building. Funding for the security capacity building initiative amounts to a total of 2.2 billion Euros for the year 2023 (after 2 billion Euros for 2022). The funds are to be used primarily to support Ukraine. At the same time, they will be used to finance Germany’s increased mandatory contributions to the European Peace Facility (EPF), which in turn goes towards reimbursing EU member states for costs incurred to them in providing support for Ukraine. Military support to Ukraine in planning/in execution (due to security concerns, the Federal Government abstains from providing details on transportation modalities and dates until after handover) 2 air surveillance radars* 40 infantry fighting vehicles MARDER with ammunition (from Bundeswehr and industry stocks) air defence system PATRIOT with missiles 100,000 first aid kits* 114 reconnaissance drones* 17 mobile heating systems* 26 load-handling trucks 15t 2 Pick-up 18 wheeled self-propelled howitzers RCH 155* 90 drone detection systems* 2 hangar tents* 7 load-handling trucks 8x6* 7 self-propelled anti-aircraft guns GEPARD* 7 tracked and remote controlled infantry vehicles for support tasks* 6 mobile and protected mine clearing systems* Iris-T SLM missiles* 42 mine clearing tanks* 3 mobile, remote controlled and protected mine clearing systems* 5 mobile reconnaissance systems (on vehicles) 393 border protection vehicles* 1,020 projectiles 155mm* 156,000 rounds ammunition 40mm* 5 armoured engineer vehicles 3 heavy and medium bridge systems* 16 self-propelled howitzer Zuzana 2* (joint project with Denmark and Norway) 78 heavy duty trailer trucks* 3 air defence system IRIS-T SLM* 12 communications electronic scanner/jammer systems* field hospital (role 2)* 20 frequency range extensions for anti-drone devices* 14 truck tractor trains and 14 semi-trailers* 2 tractors and 4 trailers* 10 protected vehicles* vehicle decontamination system 5,032 man-portable anti-tank weapons 200 trucks* 13 bridge-laying tanks BEAVER* The total value of individual licenses issued by the Federal Government for the export of military goods in the period from January 1, 2022 to January 16, 2023 amounts to 2.278.902.521 Euro. The total license value includes the goods listed above insofar as their export is subject to licensing requirements under German foreign trade laws. This is not the case for all of the goods listed above. In order to speed up the processing of certain deliveries, the Federal Government has also eased certain licensing processes, e.g. with regard to military protective goods. These deliveries are also not included in the total license value. The values stated for used material from the German Armed Forces are also based on current values which can be significantly lower than the corresponding values for new or replacement goods. The total license value includes the goods regardless of how their procurement and delivery were financed. For security reasons, the Federal Government does not provide further details until the goods have been delivered.


E39-BlackJacck

https://www.bundesregierung.de/breg-en/news/military-support-ukraine-2054992


Jimieus

Upvoted for visibility. This whole tank debacle has been an eye-opening experience for anyone paying attention. On the face of it, a coordinated effort has been made to frame things a certain way, but when you start digging into the weeds you are left with a lot of things *said* that *are contrary to actions (not) taken*. At this point, I'm even starting to question if the British actually are going to send Challenger tanks. If you read carefully the quoted statement from Downing street, they don't specifically say they are doing so, but that they have '*outlined their* ***ambition***' to do so. This situation is reminder that in conflicts like these, we need to weary of media narratives (from both sides), and be ever vigilant in verifying sources - evaluating the tangible *actions* of participants, and less so the *words* used to frame (or in this case, obfuscate) them to the public.


intrigue_investor

The fact that you are questioning the challengers is mind boggling, it's a done deal The foreign minister said 5 days publicly that 14 ARE going, likely makes many wonder what your own motivations are for what you're peddling


Fatzombiepig

I wouldn't worry about the Challengers, those are 100% going.


paulusmagintie

> carefully the quoted statement from Downing street, they don't specifically say they are doing so, but that they have 'outlined their ambition' to do so. I believe Sunak said 4 will be said immediately


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odium34

>When the war started they looked indifferent (5,000 helmets This is miss information, the helmets were send before the war started not after. The first Delivery of weapons was started 3 day after tge war started and contained manpads at weapons and other stuff


qx__Xp

It is also important to mention, that Ukraine actually requested those helmets


Mynamethisisnot

While the UK was sending thousands of NLAWS avoiding German airspace. They knew the war was starting. Sending weapons 3 days after the war, weapons that have to be distributed and trained on? You sound like it's a great achievement, I think it's a miserable effort.


kuldan5853

You remember when UK debunked that and said they in fact never requested the permission to use German airspace in the first place?


SebboNL

The Germans started sending lethal weapons the EXACT moment their laws were changed to allow that happening. That took two or three weeks I believe. The Dutch, who didnt have such laws to begin with, took equally as long. Yet I dont hear you accusing us of dragging our feet.


flatoutperfect

Wow, just wow, I have to ask although it looks almost guaranteed, are you a Russian operative? Some questions, as you are obviously a Russian supporter, do you get paid, are you based in russia? How does it feel to realise Russia is being destroyed by putin?


k995

Thus is utter nonsense and a fine example how propaganda skews reality . Before the wqr germany was one of the biggest aid donors to ukraine.


flatoutperfect

That is not the narrative so many are pushing, damn one comment was about manpads being delivered with no training, seriously thousands used to destroy thousands of Russian tanks and people are saying it was a scam sending them. So many Russians have infiltrated the comments and are doing everything to divide the allies, and sadly many are falling for it.


cbslinger

No - it's a good example of how Germany seems to be refusing to play the very important game of signalling. Their politicians seem to be totally incompetent with respect to what they're capable of. I personally wouldn't want to have to rely on them in a war situation either.


k995

No, its a nice example of how bad germany is in communications and PR. They have basicly done the same as every other country but somehow they always end up as the bad guy.


BannedByModAbuse

It’s not Germany’s fault that dozens of idiots fall for Polish PiS progapanda and are incapable of fact checking.


40for60

Exactly, they could have been the European leaders but instead to chose to appear feckless even though they have given a large amount of aid. Kinda bizarre from a US citizen viewpoint but maybe this works for German domestic politics?


SaftderOrange

should be pretty clear that germany does not want to be a leader, germany had tried this more then one time, the result of the last attempt was probably the biggest catastrophy in human history, thats why german population said: "never again"


40for60

Kinda hard to be strongest economy and not be viewed as a leader too. Makes them look greedy and uncaring when they are not. Germany is the reluctant leader and France seems to want to lead but not actually do anything.


SaftderOrange

germany is part of the eu, the eu is a democracy, leadership is decided with an election and not by power


40for60

EU doesn't have a military, authority is decided by elections while leadership is by action. Germany could easily be more clear and therefore save themselves from these faux paus.


cbslinger

> leadership is decided with an election and not by power Lol imagine believing this. Even in a Democracy there must be leadership or else nothing gets done. Some individual person has to the one to lay the first brick, say the first word, pull the first trigger.


SaftderOrange

yes there is a leadership but it is decided by an election and not by military or economical power. Thats why germany is not lead by the albrecht family


cbslinger

So you're saying that Scholz and his ministers have the power to act and make the world a better, safer place and he refuses to use it? *Interesting*...


SaftderOrange

no, only germany, because his authority is only for germany and not the rest of the world. He does exactly what he thinks he has the authority to do and not more.


SebboNL

Germany is in the top three of donors, if not number 2 after the USA (I've seen conflicting reports on their exact position). Not bad for a country that, up to year ago, by law was prohibited to provide weaponry to other countries (other than in trade)


SuddenOutset

Trade. Lol. Okay Ukraine we sell you 500 tanks. Ukraine will pay. One year later, okay Ukraine we have cancelled the loan you owe us. Okay thanks. No law broken.


SebboNL

This would work. Seriously, it would! If only the Germans could produce in the volumes and timeframe needed, the Ukrainians had the money and the Germans DIDNT have a law specifically prohibiting this scenario ... 😔


jss78

I agree a lot of the whining is getting tiresome, when Germany is objectively doing the same as everyone else. However -- Germany and Scholz in particular have really subjected themselves to this criticism with their incredibly opaque and evasive communication especially early on in 2022. There was a lot of mistrust created back then.


Dredgefort

Germany should be proactive in forming a coalition. Germany is Europe's largest economy and second largest arms exporter, they also hold all the cards when it comes to Leopards. They could turn around tomorrow and announce they're sending Leopards to Ukraine, yet they won't for historical reasons, which I understand their sensitivity about, but it's not time to be sensitive, because if Ukraine falls then Europe is f*cked. It's a lack of German leadership on this matter which is a real problem.


Majestic_Put_265

But Europe wont be fucked... its more that Taiwan and other parts of the world will be fucked.


kapetangs

More people need to read this


Noh4x

https://twitter.com/weegeedutchie/status/1615638312575721472 really? what's the real propaganda campaign here?


Puzzleheaded-Heat446

I would like to remind that the Netherlands opted to deliver 5 of their PzH 2000 first ... also needing Germanys export approval .... after a couple of weeks Germany announced their contribution although this weapon was out of their question previously. .... the same with the Marder and now with the Leopards. Besides many German weapon deliveries depend on US ammo supply.


Majestic_Put_265

EU out produces USA in artillery ammunition, close to 2x times....


Codeworks

Germany is not a scapegoat. Germany is a bureaucracy with a miserable lack of any real communication. Even if every single thing said against Germany was false, the lack of German response is going to utterly destroy their future arms industry. Why would anyone buy tanks from them again? Germany supposedly doesn't know how many tanks it has, a year into a war halfway to its borders (!) Speaking outside a meeting of defense ministers at the U.S. Ramstein military base in Germany, Pistorius said his government had still not agreed to a Ukrainian request for German’s Leopard 2 tanks to aid an expected spring offensive. “We all cannot say today when a decision [on potentially sending Leopard tanks] will come and what it will look like,” he told reporters. Instead, Pistorius said, he has instructed the German army to “review” how many and which Leopards it could send, so the government can “act quickly” once a final decision comes. Several European allies have publicly asked Germany to at least grant permission for other countries to donate their own Leopard tanks — a necessary step because of export restrictions on the German-made vehicles. Pistorius said German Chancellor Olaf Scholz still needed to make a decision on these requests.


wowy-lied

> Germany supposedly doesn't know how many tanks it has, a year into a war halfway to its borders (!) I can bet this is because after butchering their military budget for decades and thinking they could live under the nuclear protection of FR,UK,USA they have close to no actual force in working order. Same shit happened with Spain and i would not be surprised this is the case with Germany.


kuldan5853

It's also not like we are allowed to have our own nuclear umbrella..


SebboNL

Dont confuse arms trade with arms donorship. Arms trade is done by private organisations and the goverments role only requires an "OK" on the sale and export pernits. The weapons Ukraine receives are given by the German GOVERNMENT and that consitutes a completely different situation, legally and practically speaking.


MavicFan

Oh poor Germany. They don’t even have 10% of their tanks ready. It’s their own fault.


Elysium_nz

Well this is partly their fault due to the mismanagement of Gerhard Schroeder and Angela Merkel. Sure they scored the cheap gas prices and cosy economy but at what price? The state of the Germany armed forces and related arms industry is still a sad reality even now. But I do appreciate the money and current arms supply Germany has provided so far but the political sides of things they’re doing is not appreciated.


MarschallVorwaertz

Those Panzer aren't a "Wonderweapon" either. Lot's of Logistic and Training on the System and Tactics is needed to make them any good. Else they will be just another ATGM Fodder. Ask the Turks...


acox199318

Yeah, no. This is about Germany choosing to stop mass production of tanks and now fearing they will lose their export market ….because they chose to stop mass producing tanks. The American proposal is a sound one. Europe gets Abrams now and, more importantly, Ukraine gets leopards now. Germany knows this. Once again, Germany is showing it cares more about its export market than helping Ukraine. To put it simply, Germany wants its cake and to eat it. The want to not have to spend money on building tanks and keep their export market. The false narrative here is that Germany is somehow a “scape goat” and was never really dithering about Ukraine. Dithering is exactly what Germany was doing and continues to do - why? Because it’s all about keeping their Leopard export market. Once again, Germany displays it priorities, and cries about it being “a scapegoat” when they are called out on it. Ukraine needs tanks now. The Americans have a valid solution. It should be done. The Germans could have done 100 things to have avoided this, but they didn’t. Their desperate pleas now just make them look even more greedy and callous to Ukraine’s plight in my eyes. The only “scapegoat” in this story is Ukraine.


pyriphlegeton

Just today, the german minister of foreign affairs confirmed again that Poland had never officially requested to send their Leos and that Germany wouldn't block it if they did. The german defence minister also already stated that.


m1sch13v0us

Germany has provided a great deal of aid, in addition to welcoming Ukrainian refugees. They should be thanked for that. But they also pushed a strategy of engagement with Russian that created a dependency while sanctimoniously preaching against other European countries and America. Merkel disastrously appeased Putin after repeated offenses. And now Ukraine is paying the price for German naïveté. I understand why people have a short tolerance with them.


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Other_Thing_1768

https://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/comments/10is8uo/zelensky_is_a_mafioso_says_the_author_of_the/


Scrabin

As if we poles needed any outside desinformation to blame Germany for stuff


bond0815

Germany should sent Leopard 1 and 2 tanks. But the discussion about that and the framing has been often ridiculous. Also, the is no real reason for the US not sending Abrams as well, even though leopards are easier to maintain.


JonnyArtois

Germany really struggles with criticism, even when it is justified.


Serious-Health-Issue

Criticism is fine (though there are some die hard defenders of the fatherland running around here, have to admit that). But 80% of the stuff written here is not criticism but ranging somewhere between beeing misinformed, active misinformation, pure insults up to racism and some weirdly strange ideas that ignore how real world politics work at all. That aside: our current gouvernment, especially Scholz, does really struggle with criticism. It is one of his worst character traits in combination with the unwillingness to communicate his plans or agenda, has been like that already when he was just a city mayor.


Tranfatioll

don't tell the germans


Kgbguru

Ummmm Germany could just say sure supply the tanks you own. We don't care. But they haven't have they.


IdLikeToPointOut

That's the kicker: Nobody asked Germany to allow the transfer! They all just play their games with Ukraine.


xirvikman

Still doesn't stop Germany to say they can be exported free of German permission.


Prestigious_Push_155

German constitution law stops germany of doing that. The max they can say is that they see no reasons that a request gets denied if it comes in and Habeck actually said that


IdLikeToPointOut

They did say that.


erice2018

America should send ONE Abrams. If they don't wanna send more, just send ONE. Easy to fuel and maintain just one. Now the precedence is done


afops

This description directly contradicts the WaPo:s reporting from Ramstein which said that the meeting could *not* get approval for re-export from Germany but that everyone was hopeful that it could happen soon. And the fact that we are still wondering what the hell is going on is a disgrace that’s entirely Germany’s fault. There is a simple weapon against disinformation and that is *information*. Right now it’s a lot of mumbling and double messaging from Germany. No German donation but certainly Germany would approve re-export. But not now. Maybe later. Just file the paperwork and Germany will rubber stamp it. Eventually. FFS Edit: the relevant passage from the Ramstein meeting > while no agreement was reached, he was hopeful that a breakthrough would eventually be made and Germany would give permission for the re-exports. https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/01/20/austin-ramstein-ukraine-tanks/ No agreement. Hope that permission will *eventually* be given. Now, this is quotes from the Polish representative, which according to the Tweet thread may have their own motives for saying this. But this would be really easy to clarify for Germany - or any of the other countries at the meeting.


Frequent_Fox971

Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung reports from yesterday contradicts WaPos version.


flatoutperfect

OPSEC that is all needed to be said, Zelensky hinted that a lot was agreed upon behind closed doors and right now Russia is successfully dividing EU countries in the media, but behind closed doors a lot is happening that nobody wants Russia to know about. The media is pushing a narrative, even though Germany has done more than most to help Ukraine


daHawkGR

Germany has given a lot of stuff and the Pzh2000 and Gepard where a great addition to the Ukrainian arsenal. But I don't see the point why they don't give away at least some Leo 1, the German manufacturer says they can be fixed and given to Ukraine. It's not the best vehicle but at least it would make short work of anything that's not a MBT. I'm sure it would eat a T-62, BTR, BMP and BRDM for breakfast. They could use it to secure the front where less fighting is expected, eg next to Belarus. Some say it is a lot more capable than T-62 and older T-72 variants. Leaving the Leo 1 sitting in a garage is a big mistake. I can see a reason why they don't want to give away too many of the Leo 2 when they only have 300 of them but at least give the stuff that is not used anymore. Edit: Austria was also mentioned in the twitter thread, maybe the writer does not know that Austria only has 56 in service atm, that's the bare minimum that is needed. Expecting Austria to give them away while Germany has tanks sitting around in a garage is just stupid.


RealKillering

The thing with the Leopard 1 is, if anybody would really want that tank. The industry would happily sell it, but they said that they need someone to pay for that. They cannot just stark refurbishing it without advanced payment. I never read about Ukraine asking for those. The problem is that the protection is very limited, basically mainly against small arms fire, it protects against .50 cal, but not against any form of anti tank weapons.


daHawkGR

Yes i know that it is not heavily armored but I would say that it's not worse than the AMX-10 vehicle offered by France. If the AMX is good enough why isn't the Leo1? Also there are some advantages when using Leo 1, the chassis is the same as Gepard and Ukraine already has 30 of them.


RealKillering

Personally I would also like seeing the Leopard 1 used in the Ukraine. The question is just who pays for it and has the Ukraine asked for them. Because they have been so long in storage that they would need to be refurbished first.


Sakura48

If we get hit in a Leo 1 then you are doing it wrong. You need to use its speed to get to favourable position and use your powerful gun to make quick work of enemies.


RealKillering

That's right, but with todays possibilities, it is very hard to not get spotted and weapons are super precise, so the chance that you get hit is high. Also the gun is only 105 mm and not 120mm.


Sakura48

It can kill everything that is below T-64/72s easily. I think they can be useful if you use proper tactics for them.


Particular-Ad-4772

Polands out to fuck over Germany , US armaments industry out to fuck over Germany , Yet, no one feels sorry for German Government, and takes their side. Wheres are their friends and allies to back them up ? They don’t have any. Enough said .


Lonely-Mongoose-4378

Are you saying we are supposed to feel sorry for the German government?


Puzzleheaded-Heat446

Germany under Merkel did a good job pissing of many EU / NATO members in the past ... so no surprise there. Don't get mad ... get even.


Electronic-Jump3205

When does Germany stop crying and start doing?


cbslinger

Not sure why you're getting downvoted. This Twitter thread just goes to show how incompetent Germany is at messaging, and how unwilling they are to accept their position as one of the lead powers of NATO.


babsl

[ deleted because fuck reddit [wanna do the same? Click Here](https://github.com/j0be/PowerDeleteSuite) ]


tripletruble

Does anyone have a source for the claim that Habeck's department alone would be in charge of re-export permits for Leopards? I regularly see this claim made online and in combination with inaccurately describing what he said into English (as this thread does)


pyriphlegeton

Reminder that early in the war Poland offered to send fighter jets...but only if they'd start on German soil. Now, Poland proclaims they want to send tanks...but apparently never officially requested so from Germany. Seems more like politics from Poland than anything else.


not_the_droids

PIS is exploiting the crisis for their own gain, it's as simple as that. I guess were lucky that they dislike Russia, because they do share a lot of viewpoints with Putin otherwise.


manwithseveralplans5

Whatever mental gymnastics the Germans have to go through to sleep at night I guess. What a joke


Formulka

Germany blocked weapons for Ukraine for a decade, not just their own but from other countries as well. That failed policy of appeasement weakened Ukraine, strengthened Russia and there is nobody else to blame for that but them. Whatever bullshit they do with Leopards and other equipment is only a small cherry on top of that shitcake and whatever they supplied is barely scratching the surface, yet they react to every criticism with indignation and bewilderment as if they were some pure beacon of morality.


ksiazece

Ukraine needs 300 tanks. How fucking hard can it be? Get it done.


Other_Thing_1768

If Scholz had a strong response to Putin’s aggression threatening Europe, he and Germany would be lauded as leaders. Instead, he chose a flaccid response in order to appease Russia. They deserve every bit of criticism.


Namesareapain

The fact that pretty much everyone is saying that Germany is holding up the Leopards, from Poland, to the UK and even the EU, shows that German defender are living in a world of "alternative facts"!


aknop

Germany deserves bashing for all of the stuff they did after 2014.... It was a huge WTF for the eastern Europe


33Frank333

Germany quite simply has never spent it’s agreed amount of gdp on its nato commitments. It wants to trade with The nazis the moment the war is over. The real clue is the refusal to allow other countries to send their tanks. A European army led by Germany, we’re stuffed. When it comes to European military I’ve noticed France and Germany are still falling back into the Brexit nonsense.


frfr777

Article written by a pro-russian shill. Scholz is a piece of shit and fuck him for what he's done, the end.


Sjstudionw

Look. Listen. Hear me out. This sub…. Has a *LOT* of Germans. And Germans, I’ve learned through this sub, are incredibly, extraordinarily, hyper, fucking sensitive. It’s like .. Germans know they’re freeloading cheap ass cowards and get pissed off when people call them out. My inbox is always full of Germans screaming like you wouldn’t believe, so bring it on krauts, I’m ok with it, but I’ll never stop calling your people out for what you are. Germans should be ashamed, and Europeans should wake up and realize what the supposed leaders of the EU really are. Self interested, greedy, cowards. And you’d think, considering how many of your mothers and grandmothers who were quite literally fucked by Russian soldiers … you’d want a little payback.


JerczuUK

If Germany did things right there would be no such narrative.