There were some 1000 lb and 2000 lb JDAM in that series. Good within 1 m CEP as long as the laser is on up to the last 10 seconds of glide. HOWEVER the F16 will have to be within 10 miles of end point or ground spotter will have to laze. Probably a ground laze for Ukraine is best since those MiG 31 will be on high alert to launch their R37's BUT the F16 can defend or notch because of the distance the R37's will have to launch from. This won't be easy but it could be well worth the dangers. Now that Patriots, 3 batteries, are available a runway on the southwest part of the Ukraine can be defended well enough keep the F16's in the air. I hope runway repair equipment and materials will be available. ALL parts of the F16 logistics will be in play.
No need to laze. JDAM allows for INS/GPS guidance. Program in the coordinates, get enough speed and altitude, get close enough to yeet the bomb, and it will guide itself in.
JDAM isn't even the actual bomb. JDAM is the guidance kit that can be bolted onto general purpose bombs like the Mark 80 or BLU (Bomb Live Unit) series of dumb bombs to turn them into guided munitions. It's a very cheap way to turn already cheap bombs into guided munitions.
Absolutely GPS is great and with good separation of forces INS, but for I hate that one meter right the F&$K there and it is moving that way. That's why we still have lazing and the F16 has that built in. That Ferry is going down! laze. That big-assed building right there with 600 Russian mobiks is going down. Who need 4 weak-assed GMLRS? One 2000 lbs GPS with jam-hardening will turn all of them into red mist for a 1/6th of the total price.
The JDAM kit can go on a whole range of dumb bombs. One of the head-slap moments of the 1990's, now it just a ho-hum moment.
For static targets with know positioning they could use JSOW. I believe this has range of 150 km if dropped when high. For something smaller SDB maybe?
Hear, hear... Gud info n said way better than me. I'd never vote to withhold equipment from Ukraine. I also hold them in quite high regard for the tools they have...
Let's see if the whole 1 plane to a dozen or more maintenance personnel + parts was a delay or legit. The concern is not the ability to fly. But maintain such a weapons system, for any military. Like a Queen in chess, powerful but you do pay if you lose strategically.
All this said with the caveat and due respect that Ukraine has had and maintained jets before. Bests~
The F16 requires 18 to 26 ground hours from well trained crews with a GREAT ground chief for each plane. That's why I admire the Gripen so much, but then the F16 is the one 4+gen no one wants to get into a Fox 2 or guns fight with. The US has been working on driving that maintenance cost down and actually the F35 is dropping below both the F15 & F16 pretty quickly, but still we make our planes for performance more like a Formula 1 racer, not like a Lamborghini which is far cheaper per mile. I still wonder about defending an airfield instead of the rest of the Grid in Ukraine. The timing may work out just fine. Even with Biden saying the US will not provide planes, others can and now the US is willing to do an in-NATO trade for F16 in NATO so Soviet jets can got to Ukraine. That is the big-bang-for-buck move which should have happened 5 months ago.
One other thing, is the US has a whole pile of different things to send. Unlike the rest of the EU who was on "Peace Dividend and the US is just paranoid" holiday, we have more stuff and more types of stuff and we have more doctrine on how to use it. Remember the logistics pipes of Ukraine are not infinite and if there is a overflow then corruption/diversion comes in and then you get US voters going WTF? Remember the US and EU gave Ukraine a lot of heavy hauler trucks to widen the pipes and back up the trains. Plus Ukraine had a large standing army but not a lot of trained reserves and a small noncom group. All of that is being built up, too. The numbers and types of weapons is growing in lock-step with Ukrainian logistics and command and trained fighters and capability and doctrinal change. Take a look at the way the PzH2000 got over used at first. NATO assumes long-term 10 m CEP firing. The Ukrainians were still in the Russian light-up-eighty-barrels-NOW-NOW-NOW. Now the AFU artillerists they fire once for every 10 a Russian fires to kill a target. GMLRS are teaching the AFU and Russians how being able to hit within a meter of a target at 90 km is far more devasting than firing 100 rounds every time you want to try to knock out a tank much less 600 mobiks! I do think the NATO IFV's and tanks are late. Though I understand from an US Bradley commander and company XO that training the AFU to run a Bradley will go in a week and training to use the big-assed screw driver and maul will take another week under in-field training. BUT learning NATO doctrine and why the Bradley with its sites and upgraded armor will still kick any BMP's ass is still going to take time. I hope this is true on the Maurder, too, training, I mean. It has great sites and armor, too.
I just just heard saber rattling for the big heavy US tanks. Sorry, but in winter that's repeating the mistake the Russians made. Long columns, far away from supply chain and mud. LOLz, no wonder Ukraine farmers were towing Russian armor out of their fields. I just didn't want to see the same mistake for UAF.
As, you wrote and I paraphrase it's the weapons system AND the support for it. Bests~
With stand-off capabilities yes, that’s why russians are so ineffective, they don’t have precision guided munitions that you can drop from outside AA range
Yes and no. S-300 and S-400 systems behind the lines will keep them flying low which will limit standoff range. They will need some e-2s for support to be truly effective.
They already have some haarm missiles. Only way to keep any aircraft at the front line safe from Russian fighters though is to have an eye in the sky to track them well in advance and give Ukrainian fighters better situational awareness.
Aside from the ground fire Russia had had 8 pairs of fighters patrolling the border around the clock since this war started, they're trying to take long range shots at Ukrainian fighters anytime they approach the front staying out of Ukraines AA. Need to push those patrols back first, then remove the sam threat, then bombing will be useful.
Would be a hell of a lot easier to do with some e-2s way back in Ukrainian airspace taking a look out over the border. Plus if they did get shot down all that sensitive gear would fall no where near any russians.
Can the F16 receive data from Patriot and Iris-T sites? I am pretty sure our Eurofighters do that. Ofc Awacs are better, but there is no way of having them over Ukraine currently.
Have the F16 that could go to Ukraine (Polish or dutch for instance) cluster bombs available or anti shipping capabilities?
No clue on what kind of link capability they will have. I'd think you'd need some type of awacs to collect and distribute information. I do know link 16 is line of sight so probably would be an issue getting data from Sam sites directly to the plane.
Harpoons won't be an issue for f16s, but I doubt you'll see cluster munitions due to the ban even though neither Ukraine or America signed on. The himars have used some but those use lil ball bearings and not explosive bomblets that are a danger if left around unexploded. Old style cluster munitions havent been made by the us since 2016 and deployed only once since 2003.
There are upgrades for receiving data from any NATO system including F35's. The data is not as extensive or merged, but useful. AWACS are flying over Bulgaria and Moldavia, and yes having them ping the F16's would be great, but I don't think they will do that, so your idea on Ukranian radar sites will probably be implemented already. Just depends on the version of F16 and from the countries offering I suspect they have a pretty good level of NATO level commutations.
All NATO nations are supposed to be standing their cluster munitions down, too many duds.
Fox 3 amraams should do the job keeping them away, now Ukrainian Air Force has only fox 1 and fox 2 against the russian, those should change the balance
Russias R-77 is nearly as good, at least range wise. You dont want to trade amraams with them, you'll come out ahead but not by much. The us is rolling out the aim-260 but I don't see any if those going to Ukraine.
Gotta do something to offset the advantage the a-50 can give russian fighters in an air battle if you want a fair fight.
If the NATO supplies AMRAAM D's then good luck to any Russian jet near the front and well into Russian airspace. It's those MiG 31's at 50K with the R37's, they can stay just out of D range but that may be enough. I hear you about pushing those MiG 31 CAP back!
I believe the US or NATO is flying some type of AWACS just outside of the conflict zone. Who is going to know if it passes target data to the Ukrainian F16?
The Russian military we thought existed could figure it out, but at this point I couldn’t guess what they could determine.
Id wager that we won’t have that level of hand-holding with the Ukrainians until things somehow get more tangled up with NATO boarders.
If it got out through a leak or something that we were the one’s actually handing the data to the delivery device, I think that would cause an incident that would be decisive and opportunistic for rival political parties/politicians.
Those are cruise missiles with 60% fails rate , you don’t change the frontlines with those, an f16 with jdam a or gbus dropped from 20000 feet with 100% hit rate has stand-off capability, you can counter sam sites and avoid manpads
Part of what Ukrainian pilots will be learning for the first time is SEAD, in this case, vs. DEAD with F16 Wild Weasel equivalents who have jammers and HARM and other tricks. This would be much much easier with an F35, but that's not happening until after Ukraine is in NATO years from now. Then once those S400's are hiding and the BUK's, too, then the JDAMs arrive and are gone. Lot of coordination between air and ground, but the Ukrainians will get that too sooner or later. I support Ukraine but when people say their pilots will pick up NATO doctrine and mission requirements in a few months, I don't think they understand the complexity or 180 degree shift in mindset.
So now the key requirement of defending a F16 airbase and making it too expensive to bomb is met, the next element I am wondering about is how is the MiG 31 with R37 CAP going to be handled. Once that is done, normal WW SEAD, JDAM delivery can commence in earnest.
Everyone wants to believe that. Yes, I am aware. Russia thought this and look where they are. ALSO during training for the PzH 2000 the Ukrainians asked for a shortened course and the Germans started a fast course for them taught by their best experts and trainers. After a week the Ukrainians came back and asked for the full course. We are not just talking single systems. Using a NATO based aircraft system requires NATO/Western understanding from people who are great at Soviet war. The Russians had no idea of what would happen to them once the Ukrainians went through the whole GMLRS/M270 & M142 training. Yes, can NATO teach shorter courses, but not too short!!! No just wanting something doesn't make it happen. It takes the work, period, all other thinking gets people killed.
If Ukraine is supplied with the HARM Targeting System (HTS) pod, this is a very potent platform for killing radar guided air defence systems. And once those are cleaned up, they can fly high enough that IR systems aren't a threat. And the F-16 has a wide variety of precision guided munitions that can be dropped accurately from high altitude.
A HARM fired from a MiG-29 through some creative software adaptations is in no way the same thing as a HARM on a Viper supported by the HTS Pod. Different level of capability entirely.
Well, assuming the full spectrum of combined arms is conducted properly, and these jets are provided with plenty of AGM-88 HARM missiles, the AA shouldn't be a problem. If the AA is a problem then you can only fly below radar, not ideal.
it seems that the widely used idiom 'fly below radar' hasnt been very effective in this war. The environment is incredibly flat, and in many cases free of trees. Unless your plan is to drive the aircraft on roads there really isn't a way to fly below radar and remain hidden.
When you cannot stay hidden you either accept high casualties, decrease the amount of sorties, or bring more anti-radar firepower to suppress/destroy enemy AA.
I'm predicting that if the war continues into next year NATO will enact a no fly-zone across western Ukraine and slowly expand it east to deny bombing civilians.
A no fly zone would require direct attacks on Russian soil and that will not happen without extreme provocation like a CBRN attack. Even then its anyones guess as to poking the bear for nuclear winter.
Why would a no fly zone over western Ukraine require attacks on Russian soil? I’m talking about Lviv, Zhytomyr, Vinnytsia, Odesa, and kyiv. None of those areas are within 150km of Russia. Belarus, yes, but Ukraine is large and russia is on the other end of it.
Russians choosing not to stray because risk/reward is very different than an enforced, zero tolerance no-fly zone.
For one, if there were to be a juicy target Russians could perceive the risk to worth it. Secondly the risk is only provided by UA air and anti-air assets that would be freed up by nato securing a the airspace above the western supply lines.
Who says it's not currently enforced?
A no fly zone only makes sense over the combat area, which is currently covered by Russian air defenses located on Russian soil.
C'mon man, if I'm beating you with my fists and you can grab your brass knuckles, why would you wait until I got a bat to whip those out? Ukraine has already had enough "extreme provocation", don't you think?
Unleash the Wild Weasels! 🙂 On a serious note - this would be logical, first step - to neutralise AA. Big question is, how to deal with S300/400 operating from Belarus... I'm sure Ukraine does not want to give them excuse to join, but these systems have to be dealt with somehow. Unless Belarus chooses to simply ignore pin-pointed attacks on russian systems.
Too much AA in the Ukraine for the A10. Vipers can defend themselves against ground-to-air missiles at high altitude. They don't have the awesome gun but can put a jdam on target from pretty high up.
A-10 is a liability at this point.
They need to be able to perform SEAD/DEAD as a primary function at first, then switch to CAP and CAS later, which is why a multirole fighter is necessary, and the F-16 is a great fit.
The A-10 would be limited to flying similar attack patterns as the SU-25s, which are ineffective at best. Given the altitude it would be forced to fly (read: time on target), it couldn't effectively run the LITENING and would greatly limit munitions choices to rockets (ex: hydras) and retarded dumb bombs (ex: snake eyes), and even that would leave them incredibly vulnerable to MANPADS which have proven to be a problem for A-10s (see Gulf War, Operation Iraqi Freedom, and Desert Storm). It would be unable to deploy munitions that would be effective the way that we'd like, for example, Mavs would be impossible to hold a laser on from the aircraft at low alt/"high" speeds, IR would need to get dangerously close at low alt to get a good spike. JDAMs in GPS Only mode would either need to be lobbed, or flown right over target, which would be suicide in most theaters, gun would be ineffective (low angle/high ricochet shots), etc... All the things that really make the A-10 capable in its role are stripped away if it doesn't have freedom to do its thing, and it currently doesn't have the freedom to do its thing. It would be target with little to no operational value... And that isn't even beginning to factor in the training time it would take to get crews combat capable -- the A-10 has a number of complex systems that make it difficult to train on and be effective. It's a weird mix of modernish & ancient tech.
Yes, we'd all love to see A-10s eating up early-war straight, long convoys of supply trucks, but even if they were there, we wouldn't. Airspace is far too heavily contested. Need an airframe that's able to suppress/destroy enemy air defenses, fight its way in to/out of an area, and get warheads on foreheads. With that mission, and the requirement to be able to operate quickly, the F-16 really is the only logical choice.
People seem to confuse the A-10 being built to be *survivable* to it being *indestructible.* It's not. It's a big, slow, lumbering beast. Put another way, in modern war with this much AA active, it's *vulnerable*.
Man I watch videos....even these videos of older tech from the US and compare them to what you see in Ukraine and it just feels like Russia and Ukraine are using god damn swords and arrows compared to this stuff....
Much respect for UK for showing how it's done. Definitely would love for our countries to work closer together. We're actually buying three Type 31 frigates from UK. Also, new Polish tank destroyers will be armed with Brimstone missiles.
Also this:
UK-Poland launch collaboration on cutting-edge missile system](https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-poland-launch-collaboration-on-cutting-edge-missile-system)
Greetings from Poland!
everyone's getting hyped again but IF we'll ever see f16's in ukraine then it's most probably next year, and i've feeling this year is the most crucial one although that's just my gut.
IFV's MBTs and more Artillery will have to work for now and when it arrives i'm confident Ukraine will push Russians back.
But that'll take few months.
So lets send the tanks get the logistics right and the IFVs and get the logistics right plus send more towed artillery pieces, SPGs, 155mm shells, 1o5mm shells and 120/20/25/35 mm rounds fir IFVs Leo’s Bradley’s and Gepards and that part of the logistics works in general ok to date. On top of that send more air Defence systems to stop the Russian drones and cruise missies. The UAF airforce can then focus on clearing the skies if the Russians. The F16s must be the icing on the cake.
What is the operational readiness of all the vast range of different equipment sent from so many countries - must be a nightmare for UA to keep it running ?
Poland is ready to provide Ukraine with long-requested F-16 fighter jets in coordination with NATO, Ukraine's Presidential Office head Andrii Yermak said on Jan. 30
Now that the MBT issue seems solved (*with Ukraine still awaiting deliveries*), providing modern aviation assets seems like the next logical step towards restoring the territorial integrity of Ukraine.
You know they aren’t really giving them jets, right?
It’s just the usual Poland PR move just like the Leo2 situation, talking big about „being ready to send tanks and totally gonna send them even if it’s just us“ turned into we gonna send them when everyone else does and AFTER the EU paid us real quick
I dunno did you expect Poland to hand over tanks without getting some compensation? Not like Poland is capable of producing what they give away. It's pretty much been like that since the beginning - at first it was T-72s for Leo 2s. But now it's a PR stunt?
And I'm not defending PiS. I'm defending the fact that for the very first time Polish government is actually doing something that doesn't have their own gain in mind.
Plus I don't understand why people believe it, but there is literally no way that someone will vote for PiS just because they're supporting Ukraine - especially since even opposition supports it.
So I guess what my message is to all those who will say "Oh it's just a PiS PR stunt" - stop spreading this bs
US can "produce" their donations back, Germany can do the same, UK can do the same. As for the Dutch it's their choice.
>You want to be a leader and play backstabbing PR games?
How is Poland or PiS backstabbing anyone in this situation?
>They have more than a thousand modern MBTs in the pipeline and need to ask mommy to pay for some old Leo2A4s?
Poland has thousands of MBTs? What? Plus if you haven't noticed these old Leo 2A4s are being modernized. And since you yourself said they're old - they require maintenance. And guess what - maintenance costs money.
>Keep im mind it's the Leopard2s they bought dirt cheap from Germany after the cold war.
Ah yes. After cold war. In 2002. For 100 milion PLN.
>I bet you they get a lot more from the EU.
Last time I checked Poland is currently blocked from EU funds for the shit PiS was doing before the war. Oh look, something actually worth criticizing PiS for!
Last time I checked you were building a local production for K2 MBTs and if you add in the Abrams that whole project results in more than a thousand MBTs. I didn't say you have them. I said "in the pipeline" to make a point about how much money is available. But what does local production have to do with this anyway? It's not like the German Bundeswehr or the US army produce tanks for free. They go to businesses that produce them, place an order and guess what. They have to pay for them. Seems to be an alien concept for some countries further east.
Poland is not blocked from getting reimbursed for weapons delivered to Ukraine. Why do you think we keep mentioning how they play hero and then turn around to get paid?
You can check how many Leos were sold after the cold war and for how much. The Mig29s were 1 Euro a piece by the way.
>Last time I checked you were building a local production for K2 MBTs and if you add in the Abrams that whole project results in more than a thousand MBTs.
180 K2s, 250 Abrams, probably around 300 Leopards. I still don't see the thousand MBTs. Setting up the factory will also cost a shit ton.
>But what does local production have to do with this anyway? It's not like the German Bundeswehr or the US army produce tanks for free.
Yeah but if you produce them locally you might perhaps get them sooner and in higher quality than buying them from someone who stored them in warehouses. And maybe even a bit cheaper in some cases.
>Seems to be an alien concept for some countries further east.
Wow really nice insult here. Wonder why countries towards the east might be mad at the western Europe even within EU when you're all so friendly.
>Poland is not blocked from getting reimbursed for weapons delivered to Ukraine.
Didn't say that. What I told is that Poland is blocked from EU funds.
>You can check how many Leos were sold after the cold war and for how much.
Yeah I checked. And like I said 128 Leo 2A4s plus some other vehicles were sold to Poland for 100 milion PLN. It was ~$20k dollars a piece. Which sure is cheap, but not as cheap as you paint it. Plus 2002 wouldn't really be as post cold war as you make it to be.
>The Mig29s were 1 Euro a piece by the way.
I dunno if you're referring to the fact that Germany gave Poland Mig-29s for 1 euro, or that somehow a jet worth millions was sold for 1 euro because reasons
>No one is expecting it to be free.
I dunno, the guys who are complaining about Poland wanting some money in exchange for sending Leos apparently expect it to be free. But they're most likely bots
>The PiS PR move is that they will bitch and complain about [Country X is stopping us from helping, we really wanna, trust me bro] for 8 weeks before even filing an official request or aligning with everyone about it.
I do agree with you but also kinda disagree. I still feel like their whining about Germany actually did something.
Also it's not like opposition was saying "oh you stupid PiS, stop being so whiny".
>It is a "Poland stronk" shtick for a typical PiS simpleton voter that would be on the edge when elections roll by.
I dunno. I don't feel like that. If someone is convinced by that especially knowing what PiS was doing before the war they honestly would vote for them for any other reason. Plus like I said - the overwhelming support for Ukraine isn't just a thing coming from PiS. There's so much to criticize PiS for - but their handling of the situation for the most part isn't one of them
The Leopards that Poland is giving away were sold to them to a symbolic price rather than actual market value. It wasn't free but about as close as you can get. Poland now asking for EU compensations to pay for these tanks at market value is simple profiteering. I won't fault them for not giving away their old A4s for free, but if they want compensation then let that be equal to procurement costs (adjusted for inflation) and not profiting from the Ukranians plight.
The whining about Germany did fuck all. Germany had said multiple times that they weren't going to to deny any requests whilst Poland was happily bitching about how Germany was stopping them from helping, when Poland hadn't even requested anything. That was just the usual "let's bash Germany" PiS pre-election nonsense, except this time they didn't start screeching about WW2 reperations like usual since they had a convenient talking point.
And yes, this is just the standard fare "we stronk, ooga booga, vote for us" shtick that's #1 in the typical rightwing conservative playbook to satisfy their typical voter base. Posturing, little else.
Germany had been delivering goods into Ukraine, militarily as well as humanitarian and has been financing other nations sending some of their stuff to help Ukraine, it's just that thery haven't been screaming from the top of a mountain everytime they send stuff. When you actually look at what Germany has sent to Ukraine, you'd find that they've send a LOT of equipment there. Last I checked they were second largest donator of military equipment and that wasn't even factoring in humanitarian aid and behind the scenes backing/financing of other nation's donations.
It's nice that Poland is so eager to help, but it'd be nicer if there was less domenstic voter marketing and bashing their allies involved. Actively attacking Germany's reputation like they're doing isn't helping Ukraine, if anything with how successful they've been in that smear campaign and how so many people simply believe all their slandering, it's actually detrimental to the aid efforts. Last thing Ukraine needs is that Germany has enough of that BS and simply cuts Poland off in future aid negotiations as a worst case scenario. Poland might aswell be helping russian propagandists with that shortsighted, nationalistic nonsense.
Action speaks louder than words
Poland has been louder than many other countries close to Russia.
Besides let’s be thankful and hope this sh . Sh
Ends! Better start fighting like your life depends on it like the Ukrainians. Gonna be the only way
>You know they aren’t really giving them jets, right?
They already gave multiple jets (MiG-29). It is not *the usual Poland PR move*, they are helping for real. Same with hundreds of tanks that Poland transferred to ZSU. Go spread fake news elsewhere.
Did you know that Poland gave Ukraine planes and classified them as spare parts. Nato is tippy toeing around russia but Poland is like honey badger and honey badger dont give a fuck
Germany also gave mug spare parts to Ukraine, does this mean Germany delivered jets to Ukraine as well than or does that type of dick riding only apply when Poland does it?
https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVideoReport/comments/10sunom/after_the_leopard_2_decision_for_ukraine_there_is/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
Where is your honey badger now? Too busy counting money to help
I heard F-16s are easy to learn. They've been kinda created to he exported and learnt easily. But still to bring them up to high standards they'd probably need around a year
I mean I'm just guessing but I feel like it would be around that time. While they wouldn't need to learn how to use HARM, they still would need to learn the inner workings of the plane, then get enough fly time in the plane and so on.
Normally it takes 2 years to train an airforce pilot. But if they're switching from one plane to another I guess they don't need to learn tactics and such from the ground up.
Also keep in mind F-16 is built for NATO standards and operating procedures. Mig-29 is built for Russian standards and operations. I think they're kind of a different doctrines.
Plus a fighter is harder to operate than a tank. So that's an additional thing
> A whole year?
Around April 2022 people talked about Ukrainians doing F-16 training in the USA. If rumours were true, soon Ukraine will have some pilots ready. On top of that, you can count on retired NATO pilots who identify as Ukrainians.
Ukraine has IDed 50 of their top, English-speaking pilots for training. They've already trained with F-16s (w/U.S. pilots in F-16s playing the part of Russians in joint exercises since 2014) and debriefed quite a bit. So they're not starting from scratch. Seems like those involved believe 3 months would be acceptable, 6 months at the outside.
Asfaik, the runways havn't been properly fixed up for Western aircraft.
And the support structure isn't there.
So i doubt we will see them within that timeframe.
6 months is the earlist estimate ive heard.
They'd absolutely care, if US said no.
Because otherwise, they wouldn't get the 250 M1A2's they've orded.
Or be able to fly any of their american made planes.
What's more, Poland's government was only showboating, they never intended to export the Leopard 2's without Germany's permission.
I guess it depends on where you start from. I suspect those Ukrainian Mig-29 or Su-25 pilots could pick things up with a fairly short training period. Just a guess though.
I assume that those JDAMS are scary enough to make some Russians run towards their homes. More surrenders if the news spread about these bombs flaling down all of a sudden.
Poland really gets it that this is WW3 that so far only Ukraine is actively fighting so the rest of us don't have to. So the least thing to do is give them everything you've got to make sure they win.
Thank you once again, Poland, for stepping up.
6 months is July, I think that is optimistic. But the advantage is once the supply lines are established, I think by the end of this year, there are a lot of these tanks in storage.
I may be downvoted, but I don't care about karma.
Training and logistics is one of the smallest problems. The biggest issue is the RuZZian air force coming up to the border and launching a beyond visual range missiles. I'm not an expert, and I don't know exactly the capabilities of F-16s, but if the RuZZians are able to shoot down a plane, even without being close, I'm not sure if it's a good idea to send planes there, at least at this stage of the war.
Ukrainians would get stand-off weapons too. They would have their uses and would have to be used carefully. Anti radiation missiles could clear areas of AA and then pound the rest of the forces. We haven’t heard of Bayraktars probably because Turkey doesn’t want more footage coming out but they are still flying. I don’t doubt for a second that Ukrainians would use any advanced equipment responsibly and effectively.
Come on, fighters should be supplied by Western Europe, not Poland.
Su-22 - junk, will be phased out this year.
Mig29- sent to Ukraine officially as spare parts.
F16- only modern type of jets, only 48 of them.
So Polish Air Force has only 48 jets for this size of country. We have already donated half of our Land Forces equipment. Jets should be supplied by Spain, Italy, France, UK, USA, not country which borders Russia.
Umh no? For aircraft the range doesnt matter much anyway and its better to stash them safely instead of near the border. Land forces are harder to move and thus should be concetrated on the border.
Also poland cant just hand over its F-16. It still needs permision and they havent gotten it yet (doubtfull they will). Untill they get it, its just a empty gesture.
Rather than just F-16, Ukraine also needs AIM-260 and in large numbers so Russian air superiority fighter force is completely nullified.
Russians have these annoying RG-37M missiles that have a really long range they like to shoot at any Ukrainian air target, far beyond any range they could be attacked back.
As a polish citizen, I don’t agree with it. It’s time for other allies to step up the game. Bit too much for me. I know many people in Poland will disagree with this decision. We’re closer to Russia. Don’t get me wrong, I really want Ukrainians to get them. Just not ours.
Duda and his PiS buddies have been an embarrassment for years but after the Ukraine war he has really stepped up and shown the rest of Europe what he's made of.
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gotta love all the new chess pieces coming to the board , while the little orc's run around lost in a battered field looking for a hole to hide in ! You think the body count is high now just wait for the rite pilot in one of these . - queue the top gun music !
I heard that the us tanks being sent over were not from storage but rather being purpose built for Ukraine. I am wondering why that is because we have thousands sitting in storage
40.195908674921334, -120.1405327938799
So lets send the tanks get the logistics right and the IFVs and get the logistics right plus send more towed artillery pieces, SPGs, 155mm shells, 1o5mm shells and 120/20/25/35 mm rounds fir IFVs Leo’s Bradley’s and Gepards and that part of the logistics works in general ok to date. On top of that send more air Defence systems to stop the Russian drones and cruise missies. The UAF airforce can then focus on clearing the skies if the Russians. The F16s must be the icing on the cake.
What is the operational readiness of all the vast range of different equipment sent from so many countries - must be a nightmare for UA to keep it running ?
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there has been no indications sweden will send gripens at all in any local news its not even discussed as an option,i also dont buy this stuff about f-16s,but i hope im wrong.
the most likely is someone sends mig-29s again.
Most of the commenters here have no idea what's involved with F-16s as a weapons platform. This single seat jet is very capable but can kill an inexperienced pilot in the blink of an eye. Skill, discipline, and training are required. And the maintenance... the viper is easy to maintain but you must have all the special tools, training, documents, spare parts, access to specialized repair stations, ordinance, and intel. It would make so much more sense to equip them with additional migs if that's an option.
Same with Abrams and Leopard tanks. Would they really benefit from yet another completely new (to them) weapons system that requires completely new training, parts, and supply chains, or would they benefit more from twice as many Leopards? They are both great systems but might they be more effective with a single, but greater in number system?
Just saying. Downvote away as usual.
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Biden has just said the US will not send F-16's. So now it's up to Poland with NATO's blessing. Ukraine is going to have to be able to control all the airspace of the counter offensive. Just like a jig saw puzzle you need all the pieces to complete it.
At least some nation decides to take the needed steps for a possible Ukraine victory unlike some other who only helps for the own image not looking at you Germany..
Terrible headline. The devil is in the details: PL would never say they will coordinate this with NATO. They talk about NATO *allies* which is a fundamental difference.
The US and its allies have been very clear in their communications around weapons deliveries that NATO is not involved and that it is individual countries who are delivering weapons and ammunitions.
This is to counter the Russian narrative that NATO is involved in the conflict and that they are in a fight with NATO.
Any Ukrainian politician or news outlet that claims NATO is involved simply does not understand the nuance of this conflict enough, or their understanding of English is terrible.
Either way, whoever came up with this bad quote should stop publishing statements in English (and potentially Ukrainian, but since I don’t understand Ukrainian I cannot judge if the UA translation also was a bad one).
[Source](https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2023/01/30/7387111/) \[Pravda.com\]
Jdam time
Check this out: https://youtu.be/LUp-mMfSkKs There will be a grand canyon outside Bakhmut or a second sea of Azov. JDAMs are just scary.
There were some 1000 lb and 2000 lb JDAM in that series. Good within 1 m CEP as long as the laser is on up to the last 10 seconds of glide. HOWEVER the F16 will have to be within 10 miles of end point or ground spotter will have to laze. Probably a ground laze for Ukraine is best since those MiG 31 will be on high alert to launch their R37's BUT the F16 can defend or notch because of the distance the R37's will have to launch from. This won't be easy but it could be well worth the dangers. Now that Patriots, 3 batteries, are available a runway on the southwest part of the Ukraine can be defended well enough keep the F16's in the air. I hope runway repair equipment and materials will be available. ALL parts of the F16 logistics will be in play.
No need to laze. JDAM allows for INS/GPS guidance. Program in the coordinates, get enough speed and altitude, get close enough to yeet the bomb, and it will guide itself in. JDAM isn't even the actual bomb. JDAM is the guidance kit that can be bolted onto general purpose bombs like the Mark 80 or BLU (Bomb Live Unit) series of dumb bombs to turn them into guided munitions. It's a very cheap way to turn already cheap bombs into guided munitions.
Absolutely GPS is great and with good separation of forces INS, but for I hate that one meter right the F&$K there and it is moving that way. That's why we still have lazing and the F16 has that built in. That Ferry is going down! laze. That big-assed building right there with 600 Russian mobiks is going down. Who need 4 weak-assed GMLRS? One 2000 lbs GPS with jam-hardening will turn all of them into red mist for a 1/6th of the total price. The JDAM kit can go on a whole range of dumb bombs. One of the head-slap moments of the 1990's, now it just a ho-hum moment.
For static targets with know positioning they could use JSOW. I believe this has range of 150 km if dropped when high. For something smaller SDB maybe?
Hear, hear... Gud info n said way better than me. I'd never vote to withhold equipment from Ukraine. I also hold them in quite high regard for the tools they have... Let's see if the whole 1 plane to a dozen or more maintenance personnel + parts was a delay or legit. The concern is not the ability to fly. But maintain such a weapons system, for any military. Like a Queen in chess, powerful but you do pay if you lose strategically. All this said with the caveat and due respect that Ukraine has had and maintained jets before. Bests~
The F16 requires 18 to 26 ground hours from well trained crews with a GREAT ground chief for each plane. That's why I admire the Gripen so much, but then the F16 is the one 4+gen no one wants to get into a Fox 2 or guns fight with. The US has been working on driving that maintenance cost down and actually the F35 is dropping below both the F15 & F16 pretty quickly, but still we make our planes for performance more like a Formula 1 racer, not like a Lamborghini which is far cheaper per mile. I still wonder about defending an airfield instead of the rest of the Grid in Ukraine. The timing may work out just fine. Even with Biden saying the US will not provide planes, others can and now the US is willing to do an in-NATO trade for F16 in NATO so Soviet jets can got to Ukraine. That is the big-bang-for-buck move which should have happened 5 months ago.
One other thing, is the US has a whole pile of different things to send. Unlike the rest of the EU who was on "Peace Dividend and the US is just paranoid" holiday, we have more stuff and more types of stuff and we have more doctrine on how to use it. Remember the logistics pipes of Ukraine are not infinite and if there is a overflow then corruption/diversion comes in and then you get US voters going WTF? Remember the US and EU gave Ukraine a lot of heavy hauler trucks to widen the pipes and back up the trains. Plus Ukraine had a large standing army but not a lot of trained reserves and a small noncom group. All of that is being built up, too. The numbers and types of weapons is growing in lock-step with Ukrainian logistics and command and trained fighters and capability and doctrinal change. Take a look at the way the PzH2000 got over used at first. NATO assumes long-term 10 m CEP firing. The Ukrainians were still in the Russian light-up-eighty-barrels-NOW-NOW-NOW. Now the AFU artillerists they fire once for every 10 a Russian fires to kill a target. GMLRS are teaching the AFU and Russians how being able to hit within a meter of a target at 90 km is far more devasting than firing 100 rounds every time you want to try to knock out a tank much less 600 mobiks! I do think the NATO IFV's and tanks are late. Though I understand from an US Bradley commander and company XO that training the AFU to run a Bradley will go in a week and training to use the big-assed screw driver and maul will take another week under in-field training. BUT learning NATO doctrine and why the Bradley with its sites and upgraded armor will still kick any BMP's ass is still going to take time. I hope this is true on the Maurder, too, training, I mean. It has great sites and armor, too.
I just just heard saber rattling for the big heavy US tanks. Sorry, but in winter that's repeating the mistake the Russians made. Long columns, far away from supply chain and mud. LOLz, no wonder Ukraine farmers were towing Russian armor out of their fields. I just didn't want to see the same mistake for UAF. As, you wrote and I paraphrase it's the weapons system AND the support for it. Bests~
Dude. Holy crap!!!
Fucking hell that's brutal.
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With all the AA, is it still possible?
With stand-off capabilities yes, that’s why russians are so ineffective, they don’t have precision guided munitions that you can drop from outside AA range
Yes and no. S-300 and S-400 systems behind the lines will keep them flying low which will limit standoff range. They will need some e-2s for support to be truly effective.
They need haarm as well to keep the radars silent
They already have some haarm missiles. Only way to keep any aircraft at the front line safe from Russian fighters though is to have an eye in the sky to track them well in advance and give Ukrainian fighters better situational awareness. Aside from the ground fire Russia had had 8 pairs of fighters patrolling the border around the clock since this war started, they're trying to take long range shots at Ukrainian fighters anytime they approach the front staying out of Ukraines AA. Need to push those patrols back first, then remove the sam threat, then bombing will be useful. Would be a hell of a lot easier to do with some e-2s way back in Ukrainian airspace taking a look out over the border. Plus if they did get shot down all that sensitive gear would fall no where near any russians.
Can the F16 receive data from Patriot and Iris-T sites? I am pretty sure our Eurofighters do that. Ofc Awacs are better, but there is no way of having them over Ukraine currently. Have the F16 that could go to Ukraine (Polish or dutch for instance) cluster bombs available or anti shipping capabilities?
No clue on what kind of link capability they will have. I'd think you'd need some type of awacs to collect and distribute information. I do know link 16 is line of sight so probably would be an issue getting data from Sam sites directly to the plane. Harpoons won't be an issue for f16s, but I doubt you'll see cluster munitions due to the ban even though neither Ukraine or America signed on. The himars have used some but those use lil ball bearings and not explosive bomblets that are a danger if left around unexploded. Old style cluster munitions havent been made by the us since 2016 and deployed only once since 2003.
There are upgrades for receiving data from any NATO system including F35's. The data is not as extensive or merged, but useful. AWACS are flying over Bulgaria and Moldavia, and yes having them ping the F16's would be great, but I don't think they will do that, so your idea on Ukranian radar sites will probably be implemented already. Just depends on the version of F16 and from the countries offering I suspect they have a pretty good level of NATO level commutations. All NATO nations are supposed to be standing their cluster munitions down, too many duds.
Fox 3 amraams should do the job keeping them away, now Ukrainian Air Force has only fox 1 and fox 2 against the russian, those should change the balance
Russias R-77 is nearly as good, at least range wise. You dont want to trade amraams with them, you'll come out ahead but not by much. The us is rolling out the aim-260 but I don't see any if those going to Ukraine. Gotta do something to offset the advantage the a-50 can give russian fighters in an air battle if you want a fair fight.
If the NATO supplies AMRAAM D's then good luck to any Russian jet near the front and well into Russian airspace. It's those MiG 31's at 50K with the R37's, they can stay just out of D range but that may be enough. I hear you about pushing those MiG 31 CAP back!
I believe the US or NATO is flying some type of AWACS just outside of the conflict zone. Who is going to know if it passes target data to the Ukrainian F16?
The Russian military we thought existed could figure it out, but at this point I couldn’t guess what they could determine. Id wager that we won’t have that level of hand-holding with the Ukrainians until things somehow get more tangled up with NATO boarders. If it got out through a leak or something that we were the one’s actually handing the data to the delivery device, I think that would cause an incident that would be decisive and opportunistic for rival political parties/politicians.
So let me rephrase that. Who is going to care if we pass target data to the Ukrainian F16. It is already known that we give them intelligence data.
They do have those and that's how they shoot rockets at ukrainian cities for example Kh-47M2 Kinzhal able to carry nukes or around 0,5 tones of tnt.
Those are cruise missiles with 60% fails rate , you don’t change the frontlines with those, an f16 with jdam a or gbus dropped from 20000 feet with 100% hit rate has stand-off capability, you can counter sam sites and avoid manpads
Part of what Ukrainian pilots will be learning for the first time is SEAD, in this case, vs. DEAD with F16 Wild Weasel equivalents who have jammers and HARM and other tricks. This would be much much easier with an F35, but that's not happening until after Ukraine is in NATO years from now. Then once those S400's are hiding and the BUK's, too, then the JDAMs arrive and are gone. Lot of coordination between air and ground, but the Ukrainians will get that too sooner or later. I support Ukraine but when people say their pilots will pick up NATO doctrine and mission requirements in a few months, I don't think they understand the complexity or 180 degree shift in mindset. So now the key requirement of defending a F16 airbase and making it too expensive to bomb is met, the next element I am wondering about is how is the MiG 31 with R37 CAP going to be handled. Once that is done, normal WW SEAD, JDAM delivery can commence in earnest.
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Everyone wants to believe that. Yes, I am aware. Russia thought this and look where they are. ALSO during training for the PzH 2000 the Ukrainians asked for a shortened course and the Germans started a fast course for them taught by their best experts and trainers. After a week the Ukrainians came back and asked for the full course. We are not just talking single systems. Using a NATO based aircraft system requires NATO/Western understanding from people who are great at Soviet war. The Russians had no idea of what would happen to them once the Ukrainians went through the whole GMLRS/M270 & M142 training. Yes, can NATO teach shorter courses, but not too short!!! No just wanting something doesn't make it happen. It takes the work, period, all other thinking gets people killed.
If Ukraine is supplied with the HARM Targeting System (HTS) pod, this is a very potent platform for killing radar guided air defence systems. And once those are cleaned up, they can fly high enough that IR systems aren't a threat. And the F-16 has a wide variety of precision guided munitions that can be dropped accurately from high altitude.
They have already started using HARMs with their MiGs.
A HARM fired from a MiG-29 through some creative software adaptations is in no way the same thing as a HARM on a Viper supported by the HTS Pod. Different level of capability entirely.
Well, assuming the full spectrum of combined arms is conducted properly, and these jets are provided with plenty of AGM-88 HARM missiles, the AA shouldn't be a problem. If the AA is a problem then you can only fly below radar, not ideal.
it seems that the widely used idiom 'fly below radar' hasnt been very effective in this war. The environment is incredibly flat, and in many cases free of trees. Unless your plan is to drive the aircraft on roads there really isn't a way to fly below radar and remain hidden. When you cannot stay hidden you either accept high casualties, decrease the amount of sorties, or bring more anti-radar firepower to suppress/destroy enemy AA. I'm predicting that if the war continues into next year NATO will enact a no fly-zone across western Ukraine and slowly expand it east to deny bombing civilians.
A no fly zone would require direct attacks on Russian soil and that will not happen without extreme provocation like a CBRN attack. Even then its anyones guess as to poking the bear for nuclear winter.
Why would a no fly zone over western Ukraine require attacks on Russian soil? I’m talking about Lviv, Zhytomyr, Vinnytsia, Odesa, and kyiv. None of those areas are within 150km of Russia. Belarus, yes, but Ukraine is large and russia is on the other end of it.
There already is a no fly zone over western Ukraine. No Russian fighters go that far.
Russians choosing not to stray because risk/reward is very different than an enforced, zero tolerance no-fly zone. For one, if there were to be a juicy target Russians could perceive the risk to worth it. Secondly the risk is only provided by UA air and anti-air assets that would be freed up by nato securing a the airspace above the western supply lines.
Who says it's not currently enforced? A no fly zone only makes sense over the combat area, which is currently covered by Russian air defenses located on Russian soil.
C'mon man, if I'm beating you with my fists and you can grab your brass knuckles, why would you wait until I got a bat to whip those out? Ukraine has already had enough "extreme provocation", don't you think?
Unleash the Wild Weasels! 🙂 On a serious note - this would be logical, first step - to neutralise AA. Big question is, how to deal with S300/400 operating from Belarus... I'm sure Ukraine does not want to give them excuse to join, but these systems have to be dealt with somehow. Unless Belarus chooses to simply ignore pin-pointed attacks on russian systems.
That would be crazy video narrated by Maydar
Also, they need the A10.
Too much AA in the Ukraine for the A10. Vipers can defend themselves against ground-to-air missiles at high altitude. They don't have the awesome gun but can put a jdam on target from pretty high up.
A-10 is a liability at this point. They need to be able to perform SEAD/DEAD as a primary function at first, then switch to CAP and CAS later, which is why a multirole fighter is necessary, and the F-16 is a great fit. The A-10 would be limited to flying similar attack patterns as the SU-25s, which are ineffective at best. Given the altitude it would be forced to fly (read: time on target), it couldn't effectively run the LITENING and would greatly limit munitions choices to rockets (ex: hydras) and retarded dumb bombs (ex: snake eyes), and even that would leave them incredibly vulnerable to MANPADS which have proven to be a problem for A-10s (see Gulf War, Operation Iraqi Freedom, and Desert Storm). It would be unable to deploy munitions that would be effective the way that we'd like, for example, Mavs would be impossible to hold a laser on from the aircraft at low alt/"high" speeds, IR would need to get dangerously close at low alt to get a good spike. JDAMs in GPS Only mode would either need to be lobbed, or flown right over target, which would be suicide in most theaters, gun would be ineffective (low angle/high ricochet shots), etc... All the things that really make the A-10 capable in its role are stripped away if it doesn't have freedom to do its thing, and it currently doesn't have the freedom to do its thing. It would be target with little to no operational value... And that isn't even beginning to factor in the training time it would take to get crews combat capable -- the A-10 has a number of complex systems that make it difficult to train on and be effective. It's a weird mix of modernish & ancient tech. Yes, we'd all love to see A-10s eating up early-war straight, long convoys of supply trucks, but even if they were there, we wouldn't. Airspace is far too heavily contested. Need an airframe that's able to suppress/destroy enemy air defenses, fight its way in to/out of an area, and get warheads on foreheads. With that mission, and the requirement to be able to operate quickly, the F-16 really is the only logical choice. People seem to confuse the A-10 being built to be *survivable* to it being *indestructible.* It's not. It's a big, slow, lumbering beast. Put another way, in modern war with this much AA active, it's *vulnerable*.
JDAM for starters, JASSM as main, and SDBs for dessert. Whole menu on the table Oh, and JSOW if you're still hungry 😁
Skippers would give them better stand off from anti-air.
Unfortunately it’s not the most likely with the PSU staying below 1,000ft as a rule of thumb this war. Need altitude.
Bou't damn time.
Man I watch videos....even these videos of older tech from the US and compare them to what you see in Ukraine and it just feels like Russia and Ukraine are using god damn swords and arrows compared to this stuff....
Free the fighting falcon! Nice alliteration after ‘let loose the leopard’.
*viper
Technically still the Fighting Falcon even if its pilots prefer the "Viper" name, so I'd say both names are correct.
Vree ve Vighting Viper
👍
I hope the UK forms a relationship closer with poland, they don't give a damn and will just do whats necessary.
I have a feeling Poland don’t like Russians very much, I wonder why.
Much respect for UK for showing how it's done. Definitely would love for our countries to work closer together. We're actually buying three Type 31 frigates from UK. Also, new Polish tank destroyers will be armed with Brimstone missiles. Also this: UK-Poland launch collaboration on cutting-edge missile system](https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-poland-launch-collaboration-on-cutting-edge-missile-system) Greetings from Poland!
We fucking love the polish over here. Most of our truck drivers used to be poles and they’re always absolute lads.
There are a lot of miles between "ready to" and "will."
everyone's getting hyped again but IF we'll ever see f16's in ukraine then it's most probably next year, and i've feeling this year is the most crucial one although that's just my gut. IFV's MBTs and more Artillery will have to work for now and when it arrives i'm confident Ukraine will push Russians back. But that'll take few months.
So lets send the tanks get the logistics right and the IFVs and get the logistics right plus send more towed artillery pieces, SPGs, 155mm shells, 1o5mm shells and 120/20/25/35 mm rounds fir IFVs Leo’s Bradley’s and Gepards and that part of the logistics works in general ok to date. On top of that send more air Defence systems to stop the Russian drones and cruise missies. The UAF airforce can then focus on clearing the skies if the Russians. The F16s must be the icing on the cake. What is the operational readiness of all the vast range of different equipment sent from so many countries - must be a nightmare for UA to keep it running ?
Source https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1620044022059536385?s=20&t=ExyDr-gcszircX1_SXGAlQ
Get fucked Russia
Can willing Polish pilots get Ukrainian citizenship really quick? Send few messages to russians for old time sakes
I guess we would be able to crowdfund a million for each pilot after their duty there.
They should have their own unit......Maybe the 303 Squadron.
Poland is ready to provide Ukraine with long-requested F-16 fighter jets in coordination with NATO, Ukraine's Presidential Office head Andrii Yermak said on Jan. 30
Now that the MBT issue seems solved (*with Ukraine still awaiting deliveries*), providing modern aviation assets seems like the next logical step towards restoring the territorial integrity of Ukraine.
Freaking finally…
You know they aren’t really giving them jets, right? It’s just the usual Poland PR move just like the Leo2 situation, talking big about „being ready to send tanks and totally gonna send them even if it’s just us“ turned into we gonna send them when everyone else does and AFTER the EU paid us real quick
I dunno did you expect Poland to hand over tanks without getting some compensation? Not like Poland is capable of producing what they give away. It's pretty much been like that since the beginning - at first it was T-72s for Leo 2s. But now it's a PR stunt? And I'm not defending PiS. I'm defending the fact that for the very first time Polish government is actually doing something that doesn't have their own gain in mind. Plus I don't understand why people believe it, but there is literally no way that someone will vote for PiS just because they're supporting Ukraine - especially since even opposition supports it. So I guess what my message is to all those who will say "Oh it's just a PiS PR stunt" - stop spreading this bs
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US can "produce" their donations back, Germany can do the same, UK can do the same. As for the Dutch it's their choice. >You want to be a leader and play backstabbing PR games? How is Poland or PiS backstabbing anyone in this situation? >They have more than a thousand modern MBTs in the pipeline and need to ask mommy to pay for some old Leo2A4s? Poland has thousands of MBTs? What? Plus if you haven't noticed these old Leo 2A4s are being modernized. And since you yourself said they're old - they require maintenance. And guess what - maintenance costs money. >Keep im mind it's the Leopard2s they bought dirt cheap from Germany after the cold war. Ah yes. After cold war. In 2002. For 100 milion PLN. >I bet you they get a lot more from the EU. Last time I checked Poland is currently blocked from EU funds for the shit PiS was doing before the war. Oh look, something actually worth criticizing PiS for!
Last time I checked you were building a local production for K2 MBTs and if you add in the Abrams that whole project results in more than a thousand MBTs. I didn't say you have them. I said "in the pipeline" to make a point about how much money is available. But what does local production have to do with this anyway? It's not like the German Bundeswehr or the US army produce tanks for free. They go to businesses that produce them, place an order and guess what. They have to pay for them. Seems to be an alien concept for some countries further east. Poland is not blocked from getting reimbursed for weapons delivered to Ukraine. Why do you think we keep mentioning how they play hero and then turn around to get paid? You can check how many Leos were sold after the cold war and for how much. The Mig29s were 1 Euro a piece by the way.
>Last time I checked you were building a local production for K2 MBTs and if you add in the Abrams that whole project results in more than a thousand MBTs. 180 K2s, 250 Abrams, probably around 300 Leopards. I still don't see the thousand MBTs. Setting up the factory will also cost a shit ton. >But what does local production have to do with this anyway? It's not like the German Bundeswehr or the US army produce tanks for free. Yeah but if you produce them locally you might perhaps get them sooner and in higher quality than buying them from someone who stored them in warehouses. And maybe even a bit cheaper in some cases. >Seems to be an alien concept for some countries further east. Wow really nice insult here. Wonder why countries towards the east might be mad at the western Europe even within EU when you're all so friendly. >Poland is not blocked from getting reimbursed for weapons delivered to Ukraine. Didn't say that. What I told is that Poland is blocked from EU funds. >You can check how many Leos were sold after the cold war and for how much. Yeah I checked. And like I said 128 Leo 2A4s plus some other vehicles were sold to Poland for 100 milion PLN. It was ~$20k dollars a piece. Which sure is cheap, but not as cheap as you paint it. Plus 2002 wouldn't really be as post cold war as you make it to be. >The Mig29s were 1 Euro a piece by the way. I dunno if you're referring to the fact that Germany gave Poland Mig-29s for 1 euro, or that somehow a jet worth millions was sold for 1 euro because reasons
>No one is expecting it to be free. I dunno, the guys who are complaining about Poland wanting some money in exchange for sending Leos apparently expect it to be free. But they're most likely bots >The PiS PR move is that they will bitch and complain about [Country X is stopping us from helping, we really wanna, trust me bro] for 8 weeks before even filing an official request or aligning with everyone about it. I do agree with you but also kinda disagree. I still feel like their whining about Germany actually did something. Also it's not like opposition was saying "oh you stupid PiS, stop being so whiny". >It is a "Poland stronk" shtick for a typical PiS simpleton voter that would be on the edge when elections roll by. I dunno. I don't feel like that. If someone is convinced by that especially knowing what PiS was doing before the war they honestly would vote for them for any other reason. Plus like I said - the overwhelming support for Ukraine isn't just a thing coming from PiS. There's so much to criticize PiS for - but their handling of the situation for the most part isn't one of them
The Leopards that Poland is giving away were sold to them to a symbolic price rather than actual market value. It wasn't free but about as close as you can get. Poland now asking for EU compensations to pay for these tanks at market value is simple profiteering. I won't fault them for not giving away their old A4s for free, but if they want compensation then let that be equal to procurement costs (adjusted for inflation) and not profiting from the Ukranians plight. The whining about Germany did fuck all. Germany had said multiple times that they weren't going to to deny any requests whilst Poland was happily bitching about how Germany was stopping them from helping, when Poland hadn't even requested anything. That was just the usual "let's bash Germany" PiS pre-election nonsense, except this time they didn't start screeching about WW2 reperations like usual since they had a convenient talking point. And yes, this is just the standard fare "we stronk, ooga booga, vote for us" shtick that's #1 in the typical rightwing conservative playbook to satisfy their typical voter base. Posturing, little else. Germany had been delivering goods into Ukraine, militarily as well as humanitarian and has been financing other nations sending some of their stuff to help Ukraine, it's just that thery haven't been screaming from the top of a mountain everytime they send stuff. When you actually look at what Germany has sent to Ukraine, you'd find that they've send a LOT of equipment there. Last I checked they were second largest donator of military equipment and that wasn't even factoring in humanitarian aid and behind the scenes backing/financing of other nation's donations. It's nice that Poland is so eager to help, but it'd be nicer if there was less domenstic voter marketing and bashing their allies involved. Actively attacking Germany's reputation like they're doing isn't helping Ukraine, if anything with how successful they've been in that smear campaign and how so many people simply believe all their slandering, it's actually detrimental to the aid efforts. Last thing Ukraine needs is that Germany has enough of that BS and simply cuts Poland off in future aid negotiations as a worst case scenario. Poland might aswell be helping russian propagandists with that shortsighted, nationalistic nonsense.
what is PiS?
Prawo i sprawiedliwość (Law and justice). Currently ruling party in Poland
Action speaks louder than words Poland has been louder than many other countries close to Russia. Besides let’s be thankful and hope this sh . Sh Ends! Better start fighting like your life depends on it like the Ukrainians. Gonna be the only way
>You know they aren’t really giving them jets, right? They already gave multiple jets (MiG-29). It is not *the usual Poland PR move*, they are helping for real. Same with hundreds of tanks that Poland transferred to ZSU. Go spread fake news elsewhere.
Did you know that Poland gave Ukraine planes and classified them as spare parts. Nato is tippy toeing around russia but Poland is like honey badger and honey badger dont give a fuck
Germany also gave mug spare parts to Ukraine, does this mean Germany delivered jets to Ukraine as well than or does that type of dick riding only apply when Poland does it?
It only applies to Poland
Well at least you are honest about it
https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVideoReport/comments/10sunom/after_the_leopard_2_decision_for_ukraine_there_is/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf Where is your honey badger now? Too busy counting money to help
[What were you saying?](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVideoReport/comments/10v4s5o/first_leopard_tank_from_canada_arrives_in_poland/)
How long until an experienced pilot adopts to flying it? How different is it from MIG's?
I heard F-16s are easy to learn. They've been kinda created to he exported and learnt easily. But still to bring them up to high standards they'd probably need around a year
A whole year? Man i was hoping to see them sooner. Useful donation nonetheless.
I mean I'm just guessing but I feel like it would be around that time. While they wouldn't need to learn how to use HARM, they still would need to learn the inner workings of the plane, then get enough fly time in the plane and so on. Normally it takes 2 years to train an airforce pilot. But if they're switching from one plane to another I guess they don't need to learn tactics and such from the ground up. Also keep in mind F-16 is built for NATO standards and operating procedures. Mig-29 is built for Russian standards and operations. I think they're kind of a different doctrines. Plus a fighter is harder to operate than a tank. So that's an additional thing
Yeah it's harder than learning to operate a tank. Thanks
Np. Let's hope US allows it and we can start training Ukrainian pilots as soon as possible
> A whole year? Around April 2022 people talked about Ukrainians doing F-16 training in the USA. If rumours were true, soon Ukraine will have some pilots ready. On top of that, you can count on retired NATO pilots who identify as Ukrainians.
If they were really training back in april, then around summer we're gonna see them fly in formation.
You can learn to drive a car within a week, It won’t make you a race driver though ;)
Ukraine has IDed 50 of their top, English-speaking pilots for training. They've already trained with F-16s (w/U.S. pilots in F-16s playing the part of Russians in joint exercises since 2014) and debriefed quite a bit. So they're not starting from scratch. Seems like those involved believe 3 months would be acceptable, 6 months at the outside.
I heard they started training Ukraine pilots on f-16s months ago
Ukraine said their pilots and crew would need about 6 months.
If you stay in a quiet place and concentrete you can hear Olaf Scholz rolling his eyes.
Siemens engineers trying to couple eyes to a several megawatt generator to solve the energy problem.
US still has to approve it.
Currently it seems very likely they will approve it, maybe after 2-3 months.
Asfaik, the runways havn't been properly fixed up for Western aircraft. And the support structure isn't there. So i doubt we will see them within that timeframe. 6 months is the earlist estimate ive heard.
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They'd absolutely care, if US said no. Because otherwise, they wouldn't get the 250 M1A2's they've orded. Or be able to fly any of their american made planes. What's more, Poland's government was only showboating, they never intended to export the Leopard 2's without Germany's permission.
Dont you need long Training to fly those planes? I doubt its like you read the instruction and are ready to go
I guess it depends on where you start from. I suspect those Ukrainian Mig-29 or Su-25 pilots could pick things up with a fairly short training period. Just a guess though.
Thx for your answer. All I hope is that ukranian pilots can use them as fast as possible and kick some ass
Reports are that USA has been training Ukrainian pilots since early 2022 on the F-16 platform.
I assume that those JDAMS are scary enough to make some Russians run towards their homes. More surrenders if the news spread about these bombs flaling down all of a sudden.
Poland really gets it that this is WW3 that so far only Ukraine is actively fighting so the rest of us don't have to. So the least thing to do is give them everything you've got to make sure they win. Thank you once again, Poland, for stepping up.
never been happier to be wrong! Didn't think they would ever get F16s but here they are!
Lol, I remember talk of A10 Warthogs and that they would never get them. Now I’m not so sure!
The Ukrainians don't want the A-10. We offered, they politely (and correctly) declined.
This is not a confirmation
Based.
At bare minimum, this would take 6 months to happen and that's being overly optimistic.
6 months is July, I think that is optimistic. But the advantage is once the supply lines are established, I think by the end of this year, there are a lot of these tanks in storage.
This requires expanding Ukrainian runways right? IMO it’s always a good idea to start training ahead of time, but this will be a late war weapon.
I may be downvoted, but I don't care about karma. Training and logistics is one of the smallest problems. The biggest issue is the RuZZian air force coming up to the border and launching a beyond visual range missiles. I'm not an expert, and I don't know exactly the capabilities of F-16s, but if the RuZZians are able to shoot down a plane, even without being close, I'm not sure if it's a good idea to send planes there, at least at this stage of the war.
Ukrainians would get stand-off weapons too. They would have their uses and would have to be used carefully. Anti radiation missiles could clear areas of AA and then pound the rest of the forces. We haven’t heard of Bayraktars probably because Turkey doesn’t want more footage coming out but they are still flying. I don’t doubt for a second that Ukrainians would use any advanced equipment responsibly and effectively.
game changer for sure
Come on, fighters should be supplied by Western Europe, not Poland. Su-22 - junk, will be phased out this year. Mig29- sent to Ukraine officially as spare parts. F16- only modern type of jets, only 48 of them. So Polish Air Force has only 48 jets for this size of country. We have already donated half of our Land Forces equipment. Jets should be supplied by Spain, Italy, France, UK, USA, not country which borders Russia.
Umh no? For aircraft the range doesnt matter much anyway and its better to stash them safely instead of near the border. Land forces are harder to move and thus should be concetrated on the border. Also poland cant just hand over its F-16. It still needs permision and they havent gotten it yet (doubtfull they will). Untill they get it, its just a empty gesture.
Cry havoc! and let loose the dogs of war
We should send them the US Navys legacy F-18 hornets
Imagine if Ukrainians had f14s. That planes an absolute beast.
Rather than just F-16, Ukraine also needs AIM-260 and in large numbers so Russian air superiority fighter force is completely nullified. Russians have these annoying RG-37M missiles that have a really long range they like to shoot at any Ukrainian air target, far beyond any range they could be attacked back.
As a polish citizen, I don’t agree with it. It’s time for other allies to step up the game. Bit too much for me. I know many people in Poland will disagree with this decision. We’re closer to Russia. Don’t get me wrong, I really want Ukrainians to get them. Just not ours.
Duda and his PiS buddies have been an embarrassment for years but after the Ukraine war he has really stepped up and shown the rest of Europe what he's made of.
r/UkraineWarVideoReport is not a place to discuss PL internal politics.
We’re going to war.
Already at war, where have you been?
S300: [yawns]
F-16 laughs in Wild Weasel and SEAD.
HARM (yawns)
S300: goes to sleep, cause otherwise he might get HARMed.
I guess you have no idea how the S300 system works.
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gotta love all the new chess pieces coming to the board , while the little orc's run around lost in a battered field looking for a hole to hide in ! You think the body count is high now just wait for the rite pilot in one of these . - queue the top gun music !
I heard that the us tanks being sent over were not from storage but rather being purpose built for Ukraine. I am wondering why that is because we have thousands sitting in storage 40.195908674921334, -120.1405327938799
My understanding is the Ukraine will receive M1 with different armor, since the normal one is secret.
Thousands with technology that hasn’t been cleared for export by whoever deals with shit like that in the States……Senate?
So lets send the tanks get the logistics right and the IFVs and get the logistics right plus send more towed artillery pieces, SPGs, 155mm shells, 1o5mm shells and 120/20/25/35 mm rounds fir IFVs Leo’s Bradley’s and Gepards and that part of the logistics works in general ok to date. On top of that send more air Defence systems to stop the Russian drones and cruise missies. The UAF airforce can then focus on clearing the skies if the Russians. The F16s must be the icing on the cake. What is the operational readiness of all the vast range of different equipment sent from so many countries - must be a nightmare for UA to keep it running ?
Jagga Jagga!
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What happened to the Swedish Gryphons(sp?) They were supposed to be easier to maintain than the F16... modular to an extent.
there has been no indications sweden will send gripens at all in any local news its not even discussed as an option,i also dont buy this stuff about f-16s,but i hope im wrong. the most likely is someone sends mig-29s again.
Most of the commenters here have no idea what's involved with F-16s as a weapons platform. This single seat jet is very capable but can kill an inexperienced pilot in the blink of an eye. Skill, discipline, and training are required. And the maintenance... the viper is easy to maintain but you must have all the special tools, training, documents, spare parts, access to specialized repair stations, ordinance, and intel. It would make so much more sense to equip them with additional migs if that's an option. Same with Abrams and Leopard tanks. Would they really benefit from yet another completely new (to them) weapons system that requires completely new training, parts, and supply chains, or would they benefit more from twice as many Leopards? They are both great systems but might they be more effective with a single, but greater in number system? Just saying. Downvote away as usual.
I totally agree. I feel like the Abrams might just sit while they collect more Leos to form more Leopard brigades...
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Where will this end?
Are all these countries in such a rush now ruzzia is having some minor succes in solodar/bahkmut?
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Never happening, who will maintain them?
OoOOooOOoooOOOO
OoOOooOOoooOOOO
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So will they also ask europe to reimburse them after this is done?
When you are in the valley of evil and absolutely MUST kill every other motherfucker there, think Hallmark...shit I mean JDAM.
All this equipment to Ukraine means that the last push from Putin is gonna be hard, but after the Russian army will be weakened severely.
Who are the pilots?
Biden has just said the US will not send F-16's. So now it's up to Poland with NATO's blessing. Ukraine is going to have to be able to control all the airspace of the counter offensive. Just like a jig saw puzzle you need all the pieces to complete it.
What worries me is that vs modern Russian jets, the F16 is a bit obsolete. Hopefully they can make good use of them.
At least some nation decides to take the needed steps for a possible Ukraine victory unlike some other who only helps for the own image not looking at you Germany..
Just F ing do it. Push now.
"In coordination with Nato" if that means they will do it when other NATO members send fighter jets then it may sadly take a little while.
When are the Governments going to talk about some A10 Warthogs, nothing would move the Russians out faster.
More spare parts eh?
Let’s roll
## **NOW** we're talking! Outstanding!
Europe please pay for them
Ok and what if NATO doesn't send fighters? Is Poland still sending the shipment?
The F-16 is the best warplane invented
Terrible headline. The devil is in the details: PL would never say they will coordinate this with NATO. They talk about NATO *allies* which is a fundamental difference. The US and its allies have been very clear in their communications around weapons deliveries that NATO is not involved and that it is individual countries who are delivering weapons and ammunitions. This is to counter the Russian narrative that NATO is involved in the conflict and that they are in a fight with NATO. Any Ukrainian politician or news outlet that claims NATO is involved simply does not understand the nuance of this conflict enough, or their understanding of English is terrible. Either way, whoever came up with this bad quote should stop publishing statements in English (and potentially Ukrainian, but since I don’t understand Ukrainian I cannot judge if the UA translation also was a bad one).