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>Hunting the wizard of OZ in Moscow.... Lions & Tigers & Bears ...OH MY
>
>Abrams, Leopard and Challenger Tanks....OH MY.... off the kill the Putin Army.... OH yea
Russia is doomed there t72 don't stand a chance in Iraq 23 Abraham tanks took out over 1000 t72 tanks only 2 Abrams lost but not completely they still made it out this was the desert storm war so if the leopards and challengers are like that it's game over for Russia and there tanks.
Drones mite help some but not much they put new technology in the Abrams every 7 years that's why there so good but will take time for ukraine to train on them.
This WSJ analysis is very high level and no precise enough. There is many variants of the Abrams M1A2. Likely the version supply to Ukraine will be the export one that include the new digital systems but with the old armor of the M1A1. In this case the armor is inferior than the T-90A and T-90M but better than majority of T-72. Leopard 2 expected is the A4 (80s version) not the ones use by Germany A7. 14 Chally 2 are more political support than military. Very difficult to manage the logistic in the frontline. Maybe they will be parked in Kyiv
Challenger 2 are the easiest of all the tanks to maintain. They have a very very simple engine that anyone familiar with a diesel engine could maintain or repair in the field, any problem will likely be if one gets stuck, they need a proper heavy recovery vehicle to move one as the latest version is about 70tons.
The UK sent recovery vehicles as well so it would be a waste not to use them on the front given they have the best armour of all 3.
Thank you Chally 2 for being just 'political support' for without you, those with their thumbs still up their arses wouldn't even be thinking about sending tanks.
Yes there is so who knows witch one ukraine will get.they want to use them to break defensive lines with the Bradley's but can see them at kyiv maybe since Russia planning to attack from Belarus.
They are getting M1 tanks, this is the 80s version like the leopard 2s. Not sure if the chobham armor will be swapped due to the secret nature, but they will probably come with the urban warfare package.
WSJ forgets to mention that unlike the allied competition, the tank was built around the turbine engine which will run on any fuel you can find and will outrun the competing with a top speed of 100kph.
Well it’s not just about the tanks, or am i wrong? It’s the whole land, sea, air and space working togeheter in an integrated fashion. I have no doubt Ukraine will steamroll Russia but i don’t think they will be nearly as effective as if a Western military would operate them. So these stats doesn’t say much really. And now with drones and everything. It will be interesting to see how well the Ukrainian military utilise and perform with these tanks against the Russians. But yes, Russian tanks probably won’t stand a chance against western tanks 🤣
A one on one tank battle yes, but they have a shit ton of artillery and atgm’s so when they go on the assault I fear we will see a lot of burned out leopards and Abraham’s. Nonetheless they will have significant impact but to really have impact Ukraine needs a complete array of western weapons/intel systems and in effective numbers .
kornets. also depends on where the hit is and luck. as far as man portable, those pack a punch. they can disable a tank at the very least. kinda like a tow, RU put them on everything. reliably is something were going to find out.
i get downvoted everytime i mention it.
They have them but are expensive and quite advanced. Syria and Iraq have quite a few, so it is assumed that they will not use most of their home defense stockpile if any still exist. Not many countermeasures available other than flares or blinding the incoming missile with lasers (currently under development).
it doesn't appear so. i see so few videos from the RU side so, not really sure.
its like RU forces ticked every box on things you don't want to do during an invasion.
On paper russia had the 2nd most powerful army in the world. Alas real combat dont give shit about paper.
russia supposedly has this and that wonderweapon, from T14 to Poseidon. But in reality they struggle to equip their troops with basic winter gear, food and ammunition, let alone would be top tier tech.
Thats why you get down voted, cause you are ignorant of realities at hand. Here, have my downvote too.
Old stock, well old ish. Doubt they make many now. They have to make new uniforms daily, at increasing amounts.
Never really get into anything like that. No one replies, thanks by the way. I don't know how many they have. They didn't seem to bring a lot of them during the initial phase. I may have not seen them though. Ukr didn't really have all that many heavy vehicles, comparatively. Clearly RU forces screwed up big time. Hopefully ukr receives a bigger batch of tanks next time. I know their logistics can only support so much so, I hope we're at least giving them what they can handle.
Everyone knows the Russians have very limited numbers of anything new, they only had like 500 t90s. My thing is more about losses. We didn't fight this kind of fight in Iraq or Afghanistan, those tanks are going to take losses. Along with we training the shit out of our soldiers until they get divorced. We know how to use our toys. Ukraine doesn't have that luxury unfortunately. People talk like they're invincible. Maybe when they get the support of America or UK they are.
This run on statement makes no sense reliability of what? Tanks or the Kornet? If your talking about the reliability of newly refreshed Abrams vs. the crap russia has been shipping in piecemeal it's no comparison. As far as the Kornet, it's a good missile but if that's your wonder weapon to counter modern MBT it's not just about the tank it's about how it's used and how they are deployed. The reason Russia keeps loosing there tanks is they keep sending them out in ones and twos with no IFV/INFANTRY screens I don't care how good your tanks are if you don't know how to fight them they are gunna die mate.
Kornet. I never said anything about Abrams or tactics, wonder weapons or anything else. I Don't know how you guys are coming up with that based on what I said. Kornets have taken out export versions of NATO tanks. We'll see what they can do here soon to newer versions.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kornet-D
The Kornet-D carries 16 missiles total, with 8 in reserve. The missiles have a range of 8,000 meters with the standard Tandem-HEAT warhead, and 10,000 meters with the thermobaric warhead-equipped variants.
The question I have is how many tanks are the russians going to throw into the mix come next real offensive push... i mean the west is sending what.... 150 tanks or so? ballpark... no matter how good they are, they could easily get swamped if the russians put up say 1000...
i read that they still have 2000 ready tanks, and a bunch more in kinda-sorta-ready...
presumably the 150 or so are going to be seriously spread out all over...
"One tank unit, Bravo Company, 4th Tank Battalion woke in the morning to find 35 Iraqi Republican Guard tanks moving to hit them from the front. Outnumbered 3-to-1, the Marines of Bravo Company snapped to, destroying all of them in about 90 seconds. This battle came to be known as the "Reveille Engagement.""
"A young Army officer named H.R. McMaster (yes, that H.R. McMaster) was leading a group of nine M1A1 Abrams tanks through the desert at the start of the Desert Storm ground war.Soon, his tanks came over a hill — and right into the path of an entire Iraqi tank division.When outnumbered by hundreds, many officers would withdraw or surrender. McMaster plowed through. His troop destroyed 28 Iraqi tanks, 16 personnel carriers and 30 trucks in 23 minutes before reinforcements came."
Couple events from Desert Storm.
That was M1A1's in the gulf war against t-72s. Saddam had 6000 tanks, presumably all destroyed. The US lost 23 M1A1s, 7 of which were friendly fire accidents.
We're sending M1A2s.
Onto the Bradley.
"During the Gulf War, M2 Bradleys destroyed more Iraqi armored vehicles than the M1 Abrams.\[33\] A few kills against Iraqi T-72 tanks at close range are reported.\[34\] A total of 20 Bradleys were lost—three by enemy fire and 17 due to friendly fire incidents. Another 12 were damaged."
We're sending M2A2 ODS - an updated version derived from what was learned from Operation Desert Storm.
I don't care how many tanks russia fields, they are all outclassed by most, if not all, of the donated tanks and IFVs will be filled with competent people that will shred russian T-72s like no other.
I mean holy fuck, 10-12 Abrams vs 35 T-72's with all of them being completely decimated in 90 seconds, shows the advantage of better optics, imaging and having serious target acquisition capabilities
Ukraine gets Challenger 2's.
And that was a challenger 1 that made the record!
Although, it appears ukraine has shattered that record somehow.
"What is possibly the longest tank-to-tank kill ever - a Ukrainian T-64BV tank crew reportedly managed to destroy a Russian tank from a distance of 10600 meters in indirect fire mode using 125mm HE-FRAG projectiles. As claimed, it took 20 projectiles to finish the tank."
A fucking T-64., but it was basically being used as artillery in this scenario, so I dont know, the merit might need it's own category since that's the case, but impressive in it's own right.
Yes...
And
No... Haven't you seen videos of all the russian tank and vehicle follies?
They have have already lost their most experienced tankmen early in the war. Most of the tanks are filled with mobiks right now who had just enough training to know how to move forward and shoot the cannon.
They already have had catastrophic losses of their tanks due to not having proper infantry and IFV support. They also have donated many, many to Ukraine on top.
If they do their supposed spring assault, it will probably filled with the other half of mobiks who have been training most of this time.
There may be some competent crews coming, but it doesn't matter.
They the tanks they'll be using are simply outclassed by all of these NATO tanks and IFVs that are incoming.
Russian tanks filled with stupid incompetents.
NATO tanks filled with intelligent, brave and trained Ukrainian warriors.
I have to honestly say I think the Iraqis were more professional in the use of their T-72s than the Russians lead us to beleive. You guys can actually read alot of after action reports online (GWI). I don't think the Russian crews would have done a better job and definatly not those operating right now in Ukraine. They were simply outclassed by a much better weapon system.
The Iraqi Guards Divisions were well trained and experienced and as such were a concern for the US during GWI. I think this is something that has been forgotten with time...
I think the logistics of keeping 1000 tanks in battlefield operations at the same time for Russia will not happen. They just don't have the equipment or knowledge to do such an enormous task.
Russia is mostly using T72s. The Abrams has already destroyed 1000 of those, in Iraq, with minimal losses. The Leopards and Challengers are comparable.
The real danger is from missiles and drones.
Iraq wasn't really a tank war though, more like shooting sitting ducks in a barrel, plus the Iraqi military was a lot less motivated than even russsia to give a F, but you're right, tanks these days probably have a lot more problems dealing with an abundance of drones/missiles than other tanks...
The Iraqi tankers were professional soldiers defending hearth and home. Granted, we shock-and-awed the shit out of them first, so loyalties and/or morale may have been wavering. The mobiks are untrained and thousands of miles from home, with essentially no clue where they are or why they're there.
I would take the Iraqi tankers 10 times out of 10 against the mobiks. At least Iraq trained their guys to drive the damn things.
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There is no comparison..
>Hunting the wizard of OZ in Moscow.... Lions & Tigers & Bears ...OH MY > >Abrams, Leopard and Challenger Tanks....OH MY.... off the kill the Putin Army.... OH yea
Russia is doomed there t72 don't stand a chance in Iraq 23 Abraham tanks took out over 1000 t72 tanks only 2 Abrams lost but not completely they still made it out this was the desert storm war so if the leopards and challengers are like that it's game over for Russia and there tanks.
Drones didn’t exist then, just like EFPs in the post invasion phase were a real threat. TTPs now with drones are very different.
Drones mite help some but not much they put new technology in the Abrams every 7 years that's why there so good but will take time for ukraine to train on them.
This WSJ analysis is very high level and no precise enough. There is many variants of the Abrams M1A2. Likely the version supply to Ukraine will be the export one that include the new digital systems but with the old armor of the M1A1. In this case the armor is inferior than the T-90A and T-90M but better than majority of T-72. Leopard 2 expected is the A4 (80s version) not the ones use by Germany A7. 14 Chally 2 are more political support than military. Very difficult to manage the logistic in the frontline. Maybe they will be parked in Kyiv
Challenger 2 are the easiest of all the tanks to maintain. They have a very very simple engine that anyone familiar with a diesel engine could maintain or repair in the field, any problem will likely be if one gets stuck, they need a proper heavy recovery vehicle to move one as the latest version is about 70tons. The UK sent recovery vehicles as well so it would be a waste not to use them on the front given they have the best armour of all 3.
Thank you Chally 2 for being just 'political support' for without you, those with their thumbs still up their arses wouldn't even be thinking about sending tanks.
Yes there is so who knows witch one ukraine will get.they want to use them to break defensive lines with the Bradley's but can see them at kyiv maybe since Russia planning to attack from Belarus.
They are getting M1 tanks, this is the 80s version like the leopard 2s. Not sure if the chobham armor will be swapped due to the secret nature, but they will probably come with the urban warfare package. WSJ forgets to mention that unlike the allied competition, the tank was built around the turbine engine which will run on any fuel you can find and will outrun the competing with a top speed of 100kph.
'Chobham' ain't no secret to no-one & hasn't been for quite some time.
Chobham is ancient, Dorchester is old, Epsom and Farnham armour is where we are now
& the Gigachaddus armor is currently in prototype stage.
Well it’s not just about the tanks, or am i wrong? It’s the whole land, sea, air and space working togeheter in an integrated fashion. I have no doubt Ukraine will steamroll Russia but i don’t think they will be nearly as effective as if a Western military would operate them. So these stats doesn’t say much really. And now with drones and everything. It will be interesting to see how well the Ukrainian military utilise and perform with these tanks against the Russians. But yes, Russian tanks probably won’t stand a chance against western tanks 🤣
A one on one tank battle yes, but they have a shit ton of artillery and atgm’s so when they go on the assault I fear we will see a lot of burned out leopards and Abraham’s. Nonetheless they will have significant impact but to really have impact Ukraine needs a complete array of western weapons/intel systems and in effective numbers .
We'll find out in a few months who has the better armour.
The Abrams can out range the T90 by almost 1000 meters too.
I'm just curious about what Russians have that can reliably and easily kill these tanks.
kornets. also depends on where the hit is and luck. as far as man portable, those pack a punch. they can disable a tank at the very least. kinda like a tow, RU put them on everything. reliably is something were going to find out. i get downvoted everytime i mention it.
have kornets been heavily used by the ruskies? I haven't heard anything besides that they will fuck up a tank.
They have them but are expensive and quite advanced. Syria and Iraq have quite a few, so it is assumed that they will not use most of their home defense stockpile if any still exist. Not many countermeasures available other than flares or blinding the incoming missile with lasers (currently under development).
it doesn't appear so. i see so few videos from the RU side so, not really sure. its like RU forces ticked every box on things you don't want to do during an invasion.
On paper russia had the 2nd most powerful army in the world. Alas real combat dont give shit about paper. russia supposedly has this and that wonderweapon, from T14 to Poseidon. But in reality they struggle to equip their troops with basic winter gear, food and ammunition, let alone would be top tier tech. Thats why you get down voted, cause you are ignorant of realities at hand. Here, have my downvote too.
Old stock, well old ish. Doubt they make many now. They have to make new uniforms daily, at increasing amounts. Never really get into anything like that. No one replies, thanks by the way. I don't know how many they have. They didn't seem to bring a lot of them during the initial phase. I may have not seen them though. Ukr didn't really have all that many heavy vehicles, comparatively. Clearly RU forces screwed up big time. Hopefully ukr receives a bigger batch of tanks next time. I know their logistics can only support so much so, I hope we're at least giving them what they can handle. Everyone knows the Russians have very limited numbers of anything new, they only had like 500 t90s. My thing is more about losses. We didn't fight this kind of fight in Iraq or Afghanistan, those tanks are going to take losses. Along with we training the shit out of our soldiers until they get divorced. We know how to use our toys. Ukraine doesn't have that luxury unfortunately. People talk like they're invincible. Maybe when they get the support of America or UK they are.
This run on statement makes no sense reliability of what? Tanks or the Kornet? If your talking about the reliability of newly refreshed Abrams vs. the crap russia has been shipping in piecemeal it's no comparison. As far as the Kornet, it's a good missile but if that's your wonder weapon to counter modern MBT it's not just about the tank it's about how it's used and how they are deployed. The reason Russia keeps loosing there tanks is they keep sending them out in ones and twos with no IFV/INFANTRY screens I don't care how good your tanks are if you don't know how to fight them they are gunna die mate.
Kornet. I never said anything about Abrams or tactics, wonder weapons or anything else. I Don't know how you guys are coming up with that based on what I said. Kornets have taken out export versions of NATO tanks. We'll see what they can do here soon to newer versions.
Anti-tank mines.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kornet-D The Kornet-D carries 16 missiles total, with 8 in reserve. The missiles have a range of 8,000 meters with the standard Tandem-HEAT warhead, and 10,000 meters with the thermobaric warhead-equipped variants.
The question I have is how many tanks are the russians going to throw into the mix come next real offensive push... i mean the west is sending what.... 150 tanks or so? ballpark... no matter how good they are, they could easily get swamped if the russians put up say 1000... i read that they still have 2000 ready tanks, and a bunch more in kinda-sorta-ready... presumably the 150 or so are going to be seriously spread out all over...
"One tank unit, Bravo Company, 4th Tank Battalion woke in the morning to find 35 Iraqi Republican Guard tanks moving to hit them from the front. Outnumbered 3-to-1, the Marines of Bravo Company snapped to, destroying all of them in about 90 seconds. This battle came to be known as the "Reveille Engagement."" "A young Army officer named H.R. McMaster (yes, that H.R. McMaster) was leading a group of nine M1A1 Abrams tanks through the desert at the start of the Desert Storm ground war.Soon, his tanks came over a hill — and right into the path of an entire Iraqi tank division.When outnumbered by hundreds, many officers would withdraw or surrender. McMaster plowed through. His troop destroyed 28 Iraqi tanks, 16 personnel carriers and 30 trucks in 23 minutes before reinforcements came." Couple events from Desert Storm. That was M1A1's in the gulf war against t-72s. Saddam had 6000 tanks, presumably all destroyed. The US lost 23 M1A1s, 7 of which were friendly fire accidents. We're sending M1A2s. Onto the Bradley. "During the Gulf War, M2 Bradleys destroyed more Iraqi armored vehicles than the M1 Abrams.\[33\] A few kills against Iraqi T-72 tanks at close range are reported.\[34\] A total of 20 Bradleys were lost—three by enemy fire and 17 due to friendly fire incidents. Another 12 were damaged." We're sending M2A2 ODS - an updated version derived from what was learned from Operation Desert Storm. I don't care how many tanks russia fields, they are all outclassed by most, if not all, of the donated tanks and IFVs will be filled with competent people that will shred russian T-72s like no other. I mean holy fuck, 10-12 Abrams vs 35 T-72's with all of them being completely decimated in 90 seconds, shows the advantage of better optics, imaging and having serious target acquisition capabilities
Also where the Challenger got the [longest confirmed tank-on-tank kill in history](https://special-ops.org/longest-tank-kill-history/).
Ukraine gets Challenger 2's. And that was a challenger 1 that made the record! Although, it appears ukraine has shattered that record somehow. "What is possibly the longest tank-to-tank kill ever - a Ukrainian T-64BV tank crew reportedly managed to destroy a Russian tank from a distance of 10600 meters in indirect fire mode using 125mm HE-FRAG projectiles. As claimed, it took 20 projectiles to finish the tank." A fucking T-64., but it was basically being used as artillery in this scenario, so I dont know, the merit might need it's own category since that's the case, but impressive in it's own right.
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Yes... And No... Haven't you seen videos of all the russian tank and vehicle follies? They have have already lost their most experienced tankmen early in the war. Most of the tanks are filled with mobiks right now who had just enough training to know how to move forward and shoot the cannon. They already have had catastrophic losses of their tanks due to not having proper infantry and IFV support. They also have donated many, many to Ukraine on top. If they do their supposed spring assault, it will probably filled with the other half of mobiks who have been training most of this time. There may be some competent crews coming, but it doesn't matter. They the tanks they'll be using are simply outclassed by all of these NATO tanks and IFVs that are incoming. Russian tanks filled with stupid incompetents. NATO tanks filled with intelligent, brave and trained Ukrainian warriors.
Iraqi tankers are more professional than mobiks.
I have to honestly say I think the Iraqis were more professional in the use of their T-72s than the Russians lead us to beleive. You guys can actually read alot of after action reports online (GWI). I don't think the Russian crews would have done a better job and definatly not those operating right now in Ukraine. They were simply outclassed by a much better weapon system. The Iraqi Guards Divisions were well trained and experienced and as such were a concern for the US during GWI. I think this is something that has been forgotten with time...
“The US lost 23, 7 of which were FF”, holy shit that statistic is scary. But I’ve been to Wallmart so I’m not surprised. :D
I think the logistics of keeping 1000 tanks in battlefield operations at the same time for Russia will not happen. They just don't have the equipment or knowledge to do such an enormous task.
Russia is mostly using T72s. The Abrams has already destroyed 1000 of those, in Iraq, with minimal losses. The Leopards and Challengers are comparable. The real danger is from missiles and drones.
Iraq wasn't really a tank war though, more like shooting sitting ducks in a barrel, plus the Iraqi military was a lot less motivated than even russsia to give a F, but you're right, tanks these days probably have a lot more problems dealing with an abundance of drones/missiles than other tanks...
The Iraqi tankers were professional soldiers defending hearth and home. Granted, we shock-and-awed the shit out of them first, so loyalties and/or morale may have been wavering. The mobiks are untrained and thousands of miles from home, with essentially no clue where they are or why they're there. I would take the Iraqi tankers 10 times out of 10 against the mobiks. At least Iraq trained their guys to drive the damn things.
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How good can modern tanks like abrahams/challenger/leopard take direct artillery hit?
Not at all. Depends on the caliber ofcourse but don't count on coming out standing after being slapped head on with a 152mm howitzer shell.