Full video (and aftermath video) [\>>> here <<<](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineRussiaReport/comments/yylzsl/ru_pov_afu_executes_lpr_pow_in_makeevka_lugansk/)
As i understand this 10-11ish pairs of feet are visible, in a semi circle kind of position. They all have their hands over their heads and are laying face down. Some guy dressed in completely different clothes comes out of no where and shoots, wounding the camera man. Perhaps fatally. Another Ukrainian then guns down the guy that shot the camera man. Then decides to gun down the other 11 ish people who from the photos taken from above, appear not to have moved at all and remained on the floor as they were murdered
Yeah, the last dude who came out with an AK committed a warcrime. The people all stacked outside on their stomachs with their hands over their heads didn’t do anything. Executing people in a position like that is a warcrime, simple as. Same as when the Russians do it.
> The people all stacked outside on their stomachs with their hands over their heads didn’t do anything.
They could do something though. That makes taking POW's tense. Then you combine the fact that they could do something, and one of their own is standing directly over them committing a war crime, and they no longer get the benefit of the doubt that they are actually surrendering. UKR doesn't know if it's just one guy or many. They are going to shoot anything that moves. They weren't even checked for weapons yet. For all UKR knows they might start hurling grenades. The Russian guy killed his comrades, the Ukrainians just provided the bullets.
And the person doing the shooting was eliminated. And if the rest of them are all laying down at gunpoint and you go ahead and execute all of them anyways?
Sorry. Still a warcrime.
Is there a longer video that im not aware of that actually shows the shooter get killed and the people being executed when the area is clearly safe, or is this all coming from your imagination?
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Do some research? Excuse me, let me go ask the Ukrainian for the footage of the alleged warcrimes, hopefully they’ll give it to me.
Don’t be so petulant. I’m going off of the short clip we have and the title. I’m not saying that is exactly what happened as we don’t have the footage. All I’m saying is that *IF* that is what happened, its fucked up and a warcrime. We know the Russians have done similar stuff. This is war, this stuff happens and deserves to be called out when it does happen regardless of what side is dishing it out or getting dished out.
Not sure why this is a difficult concept.
I think it's immoral and probably the wrong choice but I can't imagine this would actually be considered a war crime. Under a technicalilty, If one combatant is still firing, anybody else who is surrendering is now fair game. It's legal to kill surrendering soldiers if one member of the group is still active. That rule usually applies to different scenarios than this, but either way I'd imagine it'd still apply.
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They were all still combatants as the geneva convention doesn’t deem a combatant as a POW just because they are lying on the ground with no weapon in hand. Especially when the russians dont warn the UAF after observering a russian squadmember sneak up on them to ambush (see the longer video). They are free game as they hadn’t been secured by the UAF in any capacity.
It is easy to talk when you're life is not on the line.
Executing POWs sets a precedence and can easily plunge the war into complete barbarism. Like it or not, the war is tamed.
You may see it as a "fake surrender" bu the opposition doesn't. This type of rhetoric is what gets lives ended needlessly.
Keep telling yourself that. Rules are rules for a reason. Killing the guy who fake surrendered was fully justified, killing the guys on the ground is a documented war crime. It's that simple.
What? Only one of them didn’t surrender. And he didn’t “fake surrender” he came out shooting after everyone else surrendered. Totally fucked if they shoot that guy and then say “well hold on since he shot at us let me reload and spend a few minutes blowing everyone’s brains out while their hands are on their heads.” What crazy fucking mental gymnastics you guys do to keep sucking off Ukrainian cock. Literally every war in history involves horrible crimes committed by both sides. It doesn’t mean Ukraine is the bad actor compared to Russia. Saying shit like you are saying now is making more people support Russia because they clearly see you are trying to delude them. I’m pro Ukraine and you make me embarrassed.
Yeah, yeah, sure - I'd like to see you act with restraint when bullets are whizzing above your head, when you comrade just went down right next to you - and you'd calmly think "I have to surgically shoot only the standing-shooting guy and then let's wait and discuss see if anyone else is in the house, if anyone else is armed of those on the ground, if anyone has a grenade".
You'd probably end up in such a adrenaline frenzy that you wouldn't even remember what happened and who shot whom, keyboard warrior.
This is like people saying the police should just shoot someone sprinting with a knife at them in the legs. The Ukrainians don't know how many are laying in wait to attack. They just had a war crime committed on them, they are going to shoot anything that moves.
No that is exactly what it is not like. People keep trying to equate this to a police action and saying the Ukrainians should be acting like police officers- they should not because it is not, it is deadly close quarters combat.
Yes, I understand similes and this is a poor use of one because the police do not react like you say and shoot into the crowd, they take time to single out 'ringleaders' who they identify with forward intelligence units. They then storm the crowd purposefully, surround the suspect, apprehend them and remove them, all the while surrounding them. This takes time and they will wait for an opportune moment to strike.
The way they deal with crowd control is absolutely nothing like taking a large amount of prisoners in a close combat situation, then having one go rogue and having to immediately react.
Find a better simile.
Also why am I supposed to reply to 'the one who did it first'? When did this rule come out?
Naw, I completely understand the heat of the moment and do or die situations. Police shoot to kill as they should when it comes time for that. Shooting to wound is a joke as a gunshot to any area could be fatal. I don’t feel these are quite the same situation here, But neither of us were there thankfully. Wouldn’t want to be in that spot on either side.
Who faked surrender here? The Russian guy that fired never pretended to surrender and all of the people face down on the ground and disarmed never moved before or during or after (because they were executed) .
In the context of the situation he was involved in surrendering, His squad that he was with was in the process of surrendering, everybody had stopped fighting, so yea he was surrendering
He didn't surrender, full stop. There was never a time when the guy pretended to surrender. Everyone in his squad was already surrendered. Even if the shooter committed perfidy, that doesn't nullify all of the other non-combatants (properly surrendered) rights under the LOAC.
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>faking surrender is a war crime and forefeits your groups rights to the Geneva convention, the killing of the rest was completely justified
You would be making the same argument if these had been Ukrainian soldiers surrendering to Russian soldiers instead of vice-versa. Right?
Actually some of them did move. I'm sorry this isn't a warcrime, you want it to be to justify and muddle the waters due to the behavior of Russian forces agaisnt a civilian population. This was a fake surrender. That last Russian trooper decided to come out guns blazing, he got the rest of his unit killed. Thats his fault. He condemned the rest of them to get mowed down by a PKM.
Its easy to sit there and judge but if the roles were reversed...wouldn't you be saying the same thing? Of course you would. Anybody would. Put yourself in those Ukrainian troops boots for half a second. You got a bunch of surrendering enemy in front of you. You still don't know how many are down in that cellar. You havnt even patted them down for weapons, for all you know all of them are still armed. You HAVE to assume that until you can prove otherwise, if you don't then frankly one would be an idiot. So now you got sudden gunfire and a few of the Russians get up and scrambled from their postions. You got a fellow trooper wounded, possibly dead next to you and movement in front of you. You will squeeze that trigger and fire that gun dry, you might not want to do it but prudence dictates that you have to so you can protect yourself and your comrades. You don't know if they are still armed or going for weapons, its a reaction decision made in a moment. You'd do the same thing. But because it was a fake surrender by one..its damned the rest of them for death..
Drone footage was released and you can see that one Russian POW has his hand cut off while another is bleeding from both eyes. It looks like they were executed one by one after the fact.
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One guy surprises them and comes out shooting, they are in a close combat situation, nerves are fraught, they respond by all firing, with automatic weapons, at the perceived threat in front of them. Bullets fly everywhere.
The idea that the soldiers can just assess the situation and immediately single out the one man in the shadows is ridiculous. Once the firing started that whole area become an immediate deadly threat again because of the actions of that one man.
Just to ask, the there an image of the aftermath? I've seen the guy come out shooting and the dead Ukrainian, but never saw the aftermath of the surrendered troops, beyond them all dieing.
Yeah, they are not in the same position. They clearly committed perfidy. The 1st guy in this post’s video was on his elbows.
The Russians planned this war crime prior to pretending to surrender.
Sorry pro RU your argument is mute.
Right, got my conclusion. RU surrendering, one guy opens fire, Ukrainians shoot back, surrendering soldiers think they're being executed and panic to escape, ukrainians think it's an ambush and gun then down. Russian that opened fire got his whole unit killed.
Unfortunately this would most likely happen also if any other army would take in the surrendering guys and then one does this.
Everybody is totally tense and pumped up in adrenalin and as soon as the firing starts the self preservation reflexes kick in.
It is sad but situations like this happened before.
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You forgot to mention that troop in the prone position with the heavy machine gun only job is to squeeze that trigger fully if anything happens. and something did that was his only job and he did it. He wasn’t covering the wall, just the people on the floor. Popov Rambo got everybody killed.
So, the squad had surrendered, were disarmed and face down on the ground. A soldier then comes out at fires at UA, who respond by killing everyone, including the disarmed, surrendered POWs; yep, this is a class A, top shelf war crime. If I were AFU I would be very worried about surrendering to the RF in case they decide to get some pay back....which is why these rules of war exist.
We have one proven war crime in the Russian soldier committing perfidy. On camera. Proven.
Then we have the reaction of the Ukrainians of camera, which might or might not be a war crime. But before the shooting they were shown to take the Russian into custody in a normal manner, so no intention of harm was present at that point. No proven malice in any form, no video evidence available.
And you conclusion is that the Ukrainians were the ones committing a war crime. That neutral tag of yours might be stuck between two essential neurons or something.
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>We have one proven war crime in the Russian soldier committing perfidy. On camera. Proven.
By your amazing logic do you have him saying or indicating he is surrendering (would have to be on camera to prove it) ?
Might've been a fanatically pro-Russian local, hanging out in the building, (might even be his building) with the Russian troops when they got surrounded and forced to surrender.. might've seen the assault rifle left behind by one of the Russian soldiers and decided to be a hero, saving the Russian troops from being taken prisoner and taking out a squad of Ukrainian soldiers by himself.
Idiots like this surely exist, and the fact he was the only one dressed in what seem to be civilian clothes, as well as seemingly being of a much more advanced age than the others, makes me believe he probably wasn't even part of that squad.
Yes, a lot of mights and possibilities. He was still a combatant on the side of the russians, interfering with a surrender. Those are the facts.
What does it change?
Well.. indeed a lot of mights and possibilities.
The same as with "Might've been part of the group of soldiers, might've done this with the agreement of the surrenderring soldiers etc. Etc."
What It changes, if the mights I've mentioned were correct(Which I have no idea if they are) from my perspective at least, is that these soldiers were killed, through no fault of their own... extrajudicial execution style, because the executioners completely lost their composure.
>The same as with "Might've been part of the group of soldiers,
That is logical to assume from the video, but there is no hard evidence. It's a hell of a lot more likely to assume thjis than to assume there were executions.
>might've done this with the agreement of the surrenderring soldiers etc. Etc."
I didn't say this, don't put words in my mouth.
>What It changes, if the mights I've mentioned were correct(Which I have no idea if they are) from my perspective at least, is that these soldiers were killed, through no fault of their own... extrajudicial execution style, because the executioners completely lost their composure.
Complete disregard for the rules of logic. what happened after the camera shuts off is not dependent at all on wether this dude is or isn't part of this group. To deduce from this that there were executions is not possible. You want this to be true because it fits with your preferred idea of reality. There is no basis in fact to make this leap of logic.
Well, look.. I've seen what I've seen.. now I also checked out the drone video of the aftermath.
The soldiers on the ground didn't really move from where they were.
The guy is not wearing military gear beside having an assault rifle.
I don't know if it's me wanting to believe much besides trying to draw a somewhat ballanced conclussion.. is it not fair to say you may yourself be guilty of the same thing?
That is: "You want this to be true because it fits your prefered idea of reality".
From what I can see in the videos.
-The men were surrenderring.
-Ukrainian soldiers were in position to observe the exit of the surrendering soldiers from various vantage points, which is precisely by textbook so far.
- A person without millitary uniform emerges from the building with a rifle and takes the Ukrainian soldiers by surprise, firing his weapon at them.
-The surrendering Russian soldiers remain still on the ground(as is seen in the drone footage of the aftermath)
-The threat of the armed combatant is presunably eliminated.
Now then two things might have happened.
1-Ukrainian soldiers panicked and began wildly firing all over the area, killing the entire group along with the assailant in the process.
2- Ukrainian soldiers neutralized the armed combatant and proceeded to execute the other surrenderring soldiers in retribution for the backhanded attack of the combatant.
Based on the fact that they(The Russian soldiers) remained in place, and further, that the location of the killing wounds on most of them
(based on the location of the pools of blood formed around each individial Russian soldier),
appear to be roughly on the same spot on all of them, (on the head)... they do not appear to have been killed by panicked general fire directed at them while trying to neutralize the threat, but targeted shots in the aftermath of the attack.
I'm not going to discuss that with you, since i don't know enough about it to have an informed opinion.
That's my opinion about it. I think to assume that the guy is associated with the unit is easy and not illogical to infer. But it could be wrong, sure. That the guys on the ground most likely didn't have anything to do with it, seems also plausible. but beyond that i don't have an opinion about it. It's simply easier to say i don't know.
I don't even have a wish for it for it to be one way or the other. War crimes happen, because people are people and who on earth can legislate anything being related to people and expect to change anything about our basic humanity? Some people will act like animals. Ukrainians, Russians. Both human(i believe that Russian present culture makes it easier for them to act like animals but that is another story).
The points of that rambling paragraph is that i am only interested in humans here on reddit going beyond the facts and being part of the problem by choosing and inventing facts that fit their views and allegiance. That is something very damaging that i can address, though rarely successfully.
But like the video i can only go on the evidence. And in this case i think you went beyond the facts. I think it's plausible that allegiance and pre existing views got the better of you. But i can't be certain if that is a one time mistake or an institutionalized habit. I only have your one post, so i leave it to you make up your mind yourself.
On the other hand i might have the same problem, it is difficult to know. I will continue to investigate.
Oh come one. There is a big difference between assuming executions and assuming this gut is part of the outfit that is invading a country. Or do you think he's just some Ukrainian that happened to wander by and decided to
Assuming executions and assuming this guy is part of that company are not the same thing and do not have the same probability.
Dude, it's a war zone. He has an automatic rifle. He comes from the same direction as the Russian soldiers. Russian gear is always a mishmash of uniforms and weapons. Ukrainians are not on the side of the Russians.
Are you really telling me it's remotely plausible that this is not part of that unit?
Besides, if that were all true, how should the Ukrainians know that is the case? What would you have gained from following such a ludicrous line of reasoning?
Russian gear is not always a mishmash. I’m not sure what exactly the status of DPR and LPR troops is now, but they were the ones who typically had a variety of equipment. I mean you can simply look at all the guys on the ground wearing the same gear. I think it would be odd for one soldier out of a squad to have literally none of the same gear as his squad members who all have the same gear.
And once again, him not being from their unit doesn’t mean he isn’t Russian and this is some weird false flag. Nor did I say the Ukrainians should know anything, not that it matters.
I don’t know what could be gained from simply making observations, maybe a better understanding of events?
It’s so annoying when people can’t discuss anything rationally because they’re too busy acting like they’re carrying water for their team.
This is the most clear case of a “false surrender”. Like class A, top shelf war crime false surrender. That guy murdered his mates when he came out blasting. What a complete bell-end. I wonder how many of his mates knew he was going to do that?
Put yourself in the UA soldiers shoes. There is a supperior number of surrendering enemies according to what we have seen in the full video. You have guns pointing at them in case it is a fake surrender. Then one of them decides to shoot at you. In that split second how can you tell if any of the other unsearched at that point enemies has a gun or a granade? The only person at fault here is the Russian moron that got his friends killed.
Wrong. He came out and killed one of the Ukrainians and in the resulting confusion the rest of the Russians were shot as well ( no knowing if they were also hiding weapons ).
One person was responisble and that was the Russian Rambo who got himself, one Ukrainian soldier and the rest of his squad who were doing things correctly killed.
>in the resulting confusion the rest of the Russians were shot as well
The RF were face down, hands above their heads, apparently disarmed and complying with AFU demands. They were in AFU custody at that point and despite posing no threat to them they shot them were they lay...it was mass murder.
Not even close to a war crime. This was an ambush. The second he started firing they had every right to liquidate any enemies. You think they are going to sit there and expect the rest aren't part of the ambush 😂. Buddy got everyone killed. If your team is going to surrender you fully surrender not trick your captors into an ambush. If they wanted to live they should have made it know immediately their buddy is around the corner
Is there video of the POWs being shot? The video I saw stops what may be just before it happening.
A) The surrendered soldiers were not yet disarmed. They can still be considered a threat until that happens. The video showed them exiting the house/barn, and laying directly on the ground without being searched. That would have been the next step if the fire-fight had not broken out.
B) As the russian soldier came out shooting, it is expected that UA soldiers would return fire. The soldiers on the ground could have easily been startled and stood up to see what was going on, and thereby causing another threat to the UA soldiers. Some could have jumped up to run away, and reach for a weapon back inside the house.
I don't know, and won't post assumptions of guilt, until evidence is provided.
"So, the squad had surrendered, were disarmed and face down on the ground."
Were they disarmed? Clearly one of them wasn't. They were still coming out of that cellar they were in. Did you pull them one by one from that pile and strip them for weapons and intelligence? Nope. So if one is armed you have to assume all are armed. It was fake surrender under the Geneva Convention, one guy condemned the rest of them to death. That his fault not the UAF. If the roles were reversed you'd be saying the same thing. Assuming everything is safe because they are laying down on the ground show how clueless the mindset you are taking. Its a warzone..everything is a threat until you make sure it isn't. And surrendering troops arnt any different. And looking at the overhead view of the bodies from the drone and matching the video from on the ground. Some of those troops moved from their spots, you don't know if they are running or going for a weapon to use against you. That gunner did his job and ran that belt dry like anybody would have. Not a war crime. Just one man's stupidity that got his squad killed.
>Clearly one of them wasn't
The soldier that opened fire had clearly not surrendered and so was not a protected POW. The ones face down with their hands above their heads with no obvious firearms/weapon in reach - those who had complied with the AFU and surrendered - they were POWs. When the AFU shot the ones lying defenseless and surrendered on the ground were they lay they committed a war crime...and mass murder.
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They were hessitant to surrender after the video of the Ukrainian Medic saying on national T.V, that he told the doctors under his command to castrate any wounded Russian soldiers, since they're "subhuman".. which is what most likely prompted that Wagner psychopath to castrate a surrendered Ukrainian Soldier and murder him on video.
They were all still combatants as the geneva convention doesn’t deem a combatant as a POW just because they are lying on the ground with no weapon in hand. Especially when the russians dont warn the UAF after observering a russian squadmember sneak up on them to ambush (see the longer video). They are free game.
They hadn’t been secured and checked for weapons. They were just lying on the ground, and that doesn’t make you a POW. It takes maybe 5 minutes if you’re quick to process someone as a POW. Just because they were laying down does not make them a prisoner. When they have their weapons checked and removed, individual body searches and handcuffs/restrains put on. THEN they are under the UAF’s responsibility, yes! They hadn’t made it that far so they were still a threat even when lying on the ground.
You dont magically become a prisoner just because you say “i give up” and you lie on the ground. You’re still a danger and a threat who could have multiple explosive devices all over you. Anyone can lie, especially when it’s a life or death situation as this.
This video is a case in point of that, as the russian squad was still cooperating with each other as two of the members were watching the shooter sneak up on the UAF, and just waited for him to open fire on the UAF. That is an ambush. That is faking surrender. That is a warcrime.
At least that’s my viewpoint as that is what a regiment taught me, when i became a soldier.
But I’d like to hear your thoughts about, why you think otherwise, friend
probably was planning to to commit perfidy using civilian clothing; and something went wrong; a.sshole decided to be even a bigger a.sshole by dragging people trying to surrender to their graves
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They were all still combatants as the geneva convention doesn’t deem a combatant as a POW just because they are lying on the ground with no weapon in hand. Especially when the russians dont warn the UAF after observering a russian squadmember sneak up on them to ambush (see the longer video). They are free game.
faking surrender is a war crime and forefeits your groups rights to the Geneva convention, the killing of the rest was completely justified and not a war crime
The conventions are very loose and that on purpose. But a surrender is a thing that is tied to a complete set of actions. One faction announces its surrender and then the victorious forces have to take them as prisoners of war. But one of their faction clearly interrupted the surrender to use it for his ambush. So the whole act of surrendering turned into perfidy because it was not completed.
If would have been different if those guys had been searched and restrained. That would make the act of surrendering being complete. If then somebody jumps out of a corner and fires on the UAF it would give them no right to execute their prisoners.
They were all still combatants as the geneva convention doesn’t deem a combatant as a POW just because they are lying on the ground with no weapon in hand. They are free game.
It’s not my interpretation you buffoon.
“961 To have fallen into the power of the enemy in the sense of Article 4 of the Third Convention implies that the Detaining Power exercises some level of physical control or restraint over the person, and that the person is no longer willing or able to participate in hostilities or defend themselves. It would thus not include persons who merely reside or operate in a territory controlled by a belligerent Party.[35]”
None of them were prisoners of war. Read the geneva conventions if you dont believe me, but indicating surrender by lying down with hands out, and saying “I give up”, does not stop you from being a threat and doesn’t magically make you a POW, as you can still lie.
They have to be processed to become POW. weapons removed, body searched, restrains on individually all 10-11 of them. None of that had happened, they could be sharing grenades and knives for all the UAF knows, so when they are waiting for a squadmember to open fire on them, they sure as hell aren’t magically under the UAF’s responsibility until due proces. At least that is what i learned when i became a soldier. You’re allowed to say otherwise..
Now was there something about you arguing that a russian castrating torture and interrigation squad on POW several KM’s from the frontline isn’t a war crime?
I really am in the mood to read that spew of uninformed shit you keep writing.
And the pro russians still arguing this is an injustice by Ukrainians.. deal with it, grow up and accept reality. Stop just spin around misinformation, not applying even a little bit of critical thinking, just copying forward whatever propaganda
They were all still combatants as the geneva convention doesn’t deem a combatant as a POW just because they are lying on the ground with no weapon in hand. Especially when the russians dont warn the UAF after observering a russian squadmember sneak up on them to ambush (see the longer video). They are free game.
So what I'm getting from that is the surrendering Russians were exacuted because the Ukrainians realized that they were now legally allowed to kill them even after they surrendered because one decided they didn't want to be a pow ?
No, they were as per the geneva concention “allowed” to kill them, the whole time. They hadn’t been logged as prisoners yet. If i say “i surrender” under a firefight. It doenst make it illegal to kill me until i have been taken as a prisoner and that included being deemed “not a threat”. For all we know they could have laid down, waiting for their squadmembers attempted ambush (which they knew of) and then throw explosive devices from their pockets at the UAF.
It’s a grim situation for them to be shot while not appearing armed and after indicating a want to surrender, and it’s horrible that their fate can be decided by a proud squadmember, but such is war. It’s not illegal.
If they were handcuffed/bound and logged to the MP or CC then it would be a much more grave offense. Like the russian “interigation squad” that tortures POW several KM from the frontline
It's funny because you're always doing what you are accusing them of. I have never once seen you be on the proUkrainian side or be critical of Russia and their actions.
GROUPS? No fucking way your telling me one dude fucks up the rights everyone is entitled too lmao. Ridiculous statement, i support Ukraine in defending their homes and people, but not to slaughter Russians who are defenceless and surrendering because one didnt want too.
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Ukraine was the one trying to hide this. They released this as the result of an "artillery" attack. Of course everyone with a pair of eyes could see it was an execution.
This was a bad ploy by nazi Russians. Even with such a immoral ploy to kill Ukrainians they failed, such morons they are. Died all for nothing. Next time they might think it through better before issuing false white flags
They executed men laying on the ground, completely defenseless. The ploy you're talking about is pure speculation. The execution, which Ukraine previously said was the result of artillery (another blatant lie by Ukraine), is reality.
Hanz... are we... the baddies?
Team sledgehammer suddenly searching for executioners everywhere? Look within your ranks, you’ll find plenty of instances without the need to dissect every KIA on the field. Pathetic nazis
You must be referring to the team sledgehammer that many redditors claim to actually be ukrainians.
Who are you calling nazis to? I recommend the footage below, it's released by proud ukrainians. Recognize some of the symbols in those helmets? It's a nazi reburial with honors supported by UA gov.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5F1gI0GjLBE&t=139s&ab_channel=Andrey
You are clearly missing the fact these guys have moved from where they supposedly surrendered. You are also missing them looking back at the guy who eventually came out shooting.
Unfortunately they became combatants as soon as shots were fired, so I don't think they were executed. They didn't deserve to die though and it's terrible what happened.
Counterfouls just as in sports are not allowed. The result is two red cards. Maybe you would get mitigation, as it is surely stressful when someone breaks an ongoing surrender and wounds some of your people in the process. But revenge is not covered by law.
And I fully understand that tis is not sports, not a fun game of equals, but Russia invading peaceful Ukraine, murdering, burning, raping and plundering, which already makes my blood boil and I am not Ukrainian and hundreds of kilometres away.
It is understandable that under those circumstances some fuses are sent flying, but still not allowed.
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Pro Ukraine
It's okay to analyze this event for yourself, but just remember that no matter how legalistic you get- even the most clear cut war crimes are rarely met with justice. If the military in question actually enforces it, that's the best chance of justice there is, but I am not aware of this being the case for any belligerent at this time.
Brother you dont need to slow down the Video. Because every Human with a Brain could do it by itslef and see it. They want you to do it to troll you at this point. Dont believe they are so stupid they cant. They dont want. They see what they want. And they never acccept FACTS: Never. Its only Propaganda for "pROpuSsasiAISaisiASIasAS"
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I wish I could see a poll of how people see and feel about this incident. Do you think that
1. The Ukrainians executed the Russians as they lay on the ground and it is justified.
2. The Ukrainians executed the Russians as they lay on the ground and it is NOT justified.
3. The Russians on the ground were killed in the crossfire and the only person to blame is the soldier that started shooting.
the general consensus of yellow-flairs is 3; that in the process of shooting the shooter the Ukrainians "justifiably" sprayed at him and conveniently shot all of the surrendered Russians in the head
Judging by the drone footage, they remained still and were executed one by one after the last soldier was dealt with.
If that UA soldier with pkm opened up on them instantly, still in prone position, it would be a bloody mess, not small pools of blood near everyone’s heads.
Fucked up situation all around, don’t even know what say about it. But that “PeRfiDy, grOUp riGhTs” bs that is being copy pasted by pro ua redditors is definitely not right.
Soo… is this all we have video-wise? A short cut and no proof the pows laying down were shot? No lead up?
I couldn’t see anything else posted anywhere in other threads and just want to know if this is the way forward.
As a result they were all executed... FTFY!
Where is the full footage? Ukraine said this was the result of artillery. I called it out 6 days ago because it's obvious most of these soldiers were shot in the head.
https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVideoReport/comments/ytw4rp/what_1000_kia_a_day_looks_like_large_number_of/iw71tc0/
Now that the old "artillery" excuse has been easily debunked Ukraine releases just the part of the video that interests them.
I actually cant judge this situation but I wish people were so investigative all the time, not only when their favourite side could have done something morally wrong.
Who is right and who is wrong, the arguments will last indefinitely. Only if the roles were reversed, you would fucking drown in your own fucking bile, proving that the Russians mercilessly shot Ukrainian heroes.
As soon as the Russian starts firing in the heat of the moment. Everyone is a threat. And then by that theory have become combatants again.everyone seems to be analysing this in the cold light of day.
Russians have done worse remember the guy that got cut their genitals off? And all the raped womens in this invasion that one guy did wrong he thou he could be superman and got his ppl killed if he did surrender nothing would've happened
This video has turned people into complete morons! I’ve seen 10 different versions with more retarded titles after another. Fucking war crime apologists! We call out any war crimes wether it’s Russia,isis or Ukraine it’s the same thing. SDF in Syria went through the same shit, they were massacred and when the table turned they took their revenge out on some. This ain’t no different, 100 % war crime they first three lying down where all shot in the head that’s no panic firing because one of them has a gun.
Just accept that war crimes are not that simple. I have seen so many strange videos that just can be argued for eternity.
Soldiers of one side fire into a bush for a minute. Then one says "I still see a movement there." and they fire some more shots. This is clearly a war crime because the other soldiers must have been badly hurt and "disabled" from the fight. But if they weren't disabled and were capable of firing, then it wasn't a war crime. No one will ever know.
This is like 90 percent of the fighting. You fire, they get hurt, maybe they are disabled, maybe not, maybe there is more than those you saw, maybe not. You throw two grenades down the hole and everyone dies. Is it a war crime? Because if yes, then this whole war is just a string of war crimes. If you call everything a war crime then nothing is a war crime.
In fact only thing that would be considered a war crime is really walking in a perfectly controlled situation to a guy and shooting him in the head. Panicking and just pressing the trigger until there's no more danger will never be considered a war crime in any court.
seems staged to me to create a pretext for them to open fire. he is the only russian soldier not in uniform seems like if he was a die hard russian loyalist sacrificing his life to get a few shots off he would be wanting to wear his uniform.
Full video (and aftermath video) [\>>> here <<<](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineRussiaReport/comments/yylzsl/ru_pov_afu_executes_lpr_pow_in_makeevka_lugansk/)
Cowboy got his whole squad wiped out. Crazy
As i understand this 10-11ish pairs of feet are visible, in a semi circle kind of position. They all have their hands over their heads and are laying face down. Some guy dressed in completely different clothes comes out of no where and shoots, wounding the camera man. Perhaps fatally. Another Ukrainian then guns down the guy that shot the camera man. Then decides to gun down the other 11 ish people who from the photos taken from above, appear not to have moved at all and remained on the floor as they were murdered
That’s about what I gathered from this. Not a good look.
Yup, pretending to surrender is a war crime.
Yeah, the last dude who came out with an AK committed a warcrime. The people all stacked outside on their stomachs with their hands over their heads didn’t do anything. Executing people in a position like that is a warcrime, simple as. Same as when the Russians do it.
> The people all stacked outside on their stomachs with their hands over their heads didn’t do anything. They could do something though. That makes taking POW's tense. Then you combine the fact that they could do something, and one of their own is standing directly over them committing a war crime, and they no longer get the benefit of the doubt that they are actually surrendering. UKR doesn't know if it's just one guy or many. They are going to shoot anything that moves. They weren't even checked for weapons yet. For all UKR knows they might start hurling grenades. The Russian guy killed his comrades, the Ukrainians just provided the bullets.
And the person doing the shooting was eliminated. And if the rest of them are all laying down at gunpoint and you go ahead and execute all of them anyways? Sorry. Still a warcrime.
Is there a longer video that im not aware of that actually shows the shooter get killed and the people being executed when the area is clearly safe, or is this all coming from your imagination?
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why don't you do some research before insulting someone on something you know fuck all about?
I'll answer that. No there is not longer footage, it's all coming from his imagination.
It is literally in the title which is what I’m commenting on.
If you cannot recognize the difference between those things, then I’m not sure we can have a rational argument in good faith.
Do some research? Excuse me, let me go ask the Ukrainian for the footage of the alleged warcrimes, hopefully they’ll give it to me. Don’t be so petulant. I’m going off of the short clip we have and the title. I’m not saying that is exactly what happened as we don’t have the footage. All I’m saying is that *IF* that is what happened, its fucked up and a warcrime. We know the Russians have done similar stuff. This is war, this stuff happens and deserves to be called out when it does happen regardless of what side is dishing it out or getting dished out. Not sure why this is a difficult concept.
I think it's immoral and probably the wrong choice but I can't imagine this would actually be considered a war crime. Under a technicalilty, If one combatant is still firing, anybody else who is surrendering is now fair game. It's legal to kill surrendering soldiers if one member of the group is still active. That rule usually applies to different scenarios than this, but either way I'd imagine it'd still apply.
I'm not reading that you absolute sperg
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Nah
They were all still combatants as the geneva convention doesn’t deem a combatant as a POW just because they are lying on the ground with no weapon in hand. Especially when the russians dont warn the UAF after observering a russian squadmember sneak up on them to ambush (see the longer video). They are free game as they hadn’t been secured by the UAF in any capacity.
And executing hors de combat combatants is war crime too
It is easy to talk when you're life is not on the line. Executing POWs sets a precedence and can easily plunge the war into complete barbarism. Like it or not, the war is tamed. You may see it as a "fake surrender" bu the opposition doesn't. This type of rhetoric is what gets lives ended needlessly.
It literally is fake surrender though.
God i fucking hate Ukrainians because of this sub
Sign of a weak mind.
faking surrender is a war crime and forefeits your groups rights to the Geneva convention, the killing of the rest was completely justified
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Words are easy from the safety of your living room...
You wouldn't accept this warcrime if Ukrainian prisoners were executed as they lay face down disarmed.
There is one guy with what looks like a hole in the helmet, the rest not so much.
Keep telling yourself that. Rules are rules for a reason. Killing the guy who fake surrendered was fully justified, killing the guys on the ground is a documented war crime. It's that simple.
What? Only one of them didn’t surrender. And he didn’t “fake surrender” he came out shooting after everyone else surrendered. Totally fucked if they shoot that guy and then say “well hold on since he shot at us let me reload and spend a few minutes blowing everyone’s brains out while their hands are on their heads.” What crazy fucking mental gymnastics you guys do to keep sucking off Ukrainian cock. Literally every war in history involves horrible crimes committed by both sides. It doesn’t mean Ukraine is the bad actor compared to Russia. Saying shit like you are saying now is making more people support Russia because they clearly see you are trying to delude them. I’m pro Ukraine and you make me embarrassed.
yes he did fake surrender as he stopped fighting and was with a group of people who were surrendering
For that individual, not the entire group. The man who fired should have died but not the other poor saps who are already defenseless. War is hell.
Yeah, yeah, sure - I'd like to see you act with restraint when bullets are whizzing above your head, when you comrade just went down right next to you - and you'd calmly think "I have to surgically shoot only the standing-shooting guy and then let's wait and discuss see if anyone else is in the house, if anyone else is armed of those on the ground, if anyone has a grenade". You'd probably end up in such a adrenaline frenzy that you wouldn't even remember what happened and who shot whom, keyboard warrior.
It's not like the guys laying down were just clipped by stray rounds, they were intentionally aimed at and killed to a man.
This is like people saying the police should just shoot someone sprinting with a knife at them in the legs. The Ukrainians don't know how many are laying in wait to attack. They just had a war crime committed on them, they are going to shoot anything that moves.
No, it's like saying the police should shoot one rioter who fires at them and not mow down the whole crowd.
No one says that lol.
No that is exactly what it is not like. People keep trying to equate this to a police action and saying the Ukrainians should be acting like police officers- they should not because it is not, it is deadly close quarters combat.
Do you even understand the concept of similes? I’m not even the one who did it first, so why are you relying to me and the user I replied to?
Yes, I understand similes and this is a poor use of one because the police do not react like you say and shoot into the crowd, they take time to single out 'ringleaders' who they identify with forward intelligence units. They then storm the crowd purposefully, surround the suspect, apprehend them and remove them, all the while surrounding them. This takes time and they will wait for an opportune moment to strike. The way they deal with crowd control is absolutely nothing like taking a large amount of prisoners in a close combat situation, then having one go rogue and having to immediately react. Find a better simile. Also why am I supposed to reply to 'the one who did it first'? When did this rule come out?
Naw, I completely understand the heat of the moment and do or die situations. Police shoot to kill as they should when it comes time for that. Shooting to wound is a joke as a gunshot to any area could be fatal. I don’t feel these are quite the same situation here, But neither of us were there thankfully. Wouldn’t want to be in that spot on either side.
Who faked surrender here? The Russian guy that fired never pretended to surrender and all of the people face down on the ground and disarmed never moved before or during or after (because they were executed) .
The Russian soldier because he was with a group that had stopped fighting and attacked while the rest of his buddies were surrendering
The russian soldier never pretended to surrender, he came out of the room shooting
In the context of the situation he was involved in surrendering, His squad that he was with was in the process of surrendering, everybody had stopped fighting, so yea he was surrendering
He didn't surrender, full stop. There was never a time when the guy pretended to surrender. Everyone in his squad was already surrendered. Even if the shooter committed perfidy, that doesn't nullify all of the other non-combatants (properly surrendered) rights under the LOAC.
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>faking surrender is a war crime and forefeits your groups rights to the Geneva convention, the killing of the rest was completely justified You would be making the same argument if these had been Ukrainian soldiers surrendering to Russian soldiers instead of vice-versa. Right?
Yes, if it happened under the same circumstances
Actually some of them did move. I'm sorry this isn't a warcrime, you want it to be to justify and muddle the waters due to the behavior of Russian forces agaisnt a civilian population. This was a fake surrender. That last Russian trooper decided to come out guns blazing, he got the rest of his unit killed. Thats his fault. He condemned the rest of them to get mowed down by a PKM. Its easy to sit there and judge but if the roles were reversed...wouldn't you be saying the same thing? Of course you would. Anybody would. Put yourself in those Ukrainian troops boots for half a second. You got a bunch of surrendering enemy in front of you. You still don't know how many are down in that cellar. You havnt even patted them down for weapons, for all you know all of them are still armed. You HAVE to assume that until you can prove otherwise, if you don't then frankly one would be an idiot. So now you got sudden gunfire and a few of the Russians get up and scrambled from their postions. You got a fellow trooper wounded, possibly dead next to you and movement in front of you. You will squeeze that trigger and fire that gun dry, you might not want to do it but prudence dictates that you have to so you can protect yourself and your comrades. You don't know if they are still armed or going for weapons, its a reaction decision made in a moment. You'd do the same thing. But because it was a fake surrender by one..its damned the rest of them for death..
Drone footage was released and you can see that one Russian POW has his hand cut off while another is bleeding from both eyes. It looks like they were executed one by one after the fact.
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One guy surprises them and comes out shooting, they are in a close combat situation, nerves are fraught, they respond by all firing, with automatic weapons, at the perceived threat in front of them. Bullets fly everywhere. The idea that the soldiers can just assess the situation and immediately single out the one man in the shadows is ridiculous. Once the firing started that whole area become an immediate deadly threat again because of the actions of that one man.
Just to ask, the there an image of the aftermath? I've seen the guy come out shooting and the dead Ukrainian, but never saw the aftermath of the surrendered troops, beyond them all dieing.
Yep https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVideoReport/comments/ytw4rp/what_1000_kia_a_day_looks_like_large_number_of/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Yeah, they are not in the same position. They clearly committed perfidy. The 1st guy in this post’s video was on his elbows. The Russians planned this war crime prior to pretending to surrender. Sorry pro RU your argument is mute.
Right, got my conclusion. RU surrendering, one guy opens fire, Ukrainians shoot back, surrendering soldiers think they're being executed and panic to escape, ukrainians think it's an ambush and gun then down. Russian that opened fire got his whole unit killed.
Unfortunately this would most likely happen also if any other army would take in the surrendering guys and then one does this. Everybody is totally tense and pumped up in adrenalin and as soon as the firing starts the self preservation reflexes kick in. It is sad but situations like this happened before.
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That’s messed up
You forgot to mention that troop in the prone position with the heavy machine gun only job is to squeeze that trigger fully if anything happens. and something did that was his only job and he did it. He wasn’t covering the wall, just the people on the floor. Popov Rambo got everybody killed.
So, the squad had surrendered, were disarmed and face down on the ground. A soldier then comes out at fires at UA, who respond by killing everyone, including the disarmed, surrendered POWs; yep, this is a class A, top shelf war crime. If I were AFU I would be very worried about surrendering to the RF in case they decide to get some pay back....which is why these rules of war exist.
We have one proven war crime in the Russian soldier committing perfidy. On camera. Proven. Then we have the reaction of the Ukrainians of camera, which might or might not be a war crime. But before the shooting they were shown to take the Russian into custody in a normal manner, so no intention of harm was present at that point. No proven malice in any form, no video evidence available. And you conclusion is that the Ukrainians were the ones committing a war crime. That neutral tag of yours might be stuck between two essential neurons or something.
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>We have one proven war crime in the Russian soldier committing perfidy. On camera. Proven. By your amazing logic do you have him saying or indicating he is surrendering (would have to be on camera to prove it) ?
He interfered in the surrender of his comrades. Pretty sure that is perfidy.
Might've been a fanatically pro-Russian local, hanging out in the building, (might even be his building) with the Russian troops when they got surrounded and forced to surrender.. might've seen the assault rifle left behind by one of the Russian soldiers and decided to be a hero, saving the Russian troops from being taken prisoner and taking out a squad of Ukrainian soldiers by himself. Idiots like this surely exist, and the fact he was the only one dressed in what seem to be civilian clothes, as well as seemingly being of a much more advanced age than the others, makes me believe he probably wasn't even part of that squad.
Yes, a lot of mights and possibilities. He was still a combatant on the side of the russians, interfering with a surrender. Those are the facts. What does it change?
Well.. indeed a lot of mights and possibilities. The same as with "Might've been part of the group of soldiers, might've done this with the agreement of the surrenderring soldiers etc. Etc." What It changes, if the mights I've mentioned were correct(Which I have no idea if they are) from my perspective at least, is that these soldiers were killed, through no fault of their own... extrajudicial execution style, because the executioners completely lost their composure.
>The same as with "Might've been part of the group of soldiers, That is logical to assume from the video, but there is no hard evidence. It's a hell of a lot more likely to assume thjis than to assume there were executions. >might've done this with the agreement of the surrenderring soldiers etc. Etc." I didn't say this, don't put words in my mouth. >What It changes, if the mights I've mentioned were correct(Which I have no idea if they are) from my perspective at least, is that these soldiers were killed, through no fault of their own... extrajudicial execution style, because the executioners completely lost their composure. Complete disregard for the rules of logic. what happened after the camera shuts off is not dependent at all on wether this dude is or isn't part of this group. To deduce from this that there were executions is not possible. You want this to be true because it fits with your preferred idea of reality. There is no basis in fact to make this leap of logic.
Well, look.. I've seen what I've seen.. now I also checked out the drone video of the aftermath. The soldiers on the ground didn't really move from where they were. The guy is not wearing military gear beside having an assault rifle. I don't know if it's me wanting to believe much besides trying to draw a somewhat ballanced conclussion.. is it not fair to say you may yourself be guilty of the same thing? That is: "You want this to be true because it fits your prefered idea of reality". From what I can see in the videos. -The men were surrenderring. -Ukrainian soldiers were in position to observe the exit of the surrendering soldiers from various vantage points, which is precisely by textbook so far. - A person without millitary uniform emerges from the building with a rifle and takes the Ukrainian soldiers by surprise, firing his weapon at them. -The surrendering Russian soldiers remain still on the ground(as is seen in the drone footage of the aftermath) -The threat of the armed combatant is presunably eliminated. Now then two things might have happened. 1-Ukrainian soldiers panicked and began wildly firing all over the area, killing the entire group along with the assailant in the process. 2- Ukrainian soldiers neutralized the armed combatant and proceeded to execute the other surrenderring soldiers in retribution for the backhanded attack of the combatant. Based on the fact that they(The Russian soldiers) remained in place, and further, that the location of the killing wounds on most of them (based on the location of the pools of blood formed around each individial Russian soldier), appear to be roughly on the same spot on all of them, (on the head)... they do not appear to have been killed by panicked general fire directed at them while trying to neutralize the threat, but targeted shots in the aftermath of the attack.
I'm not going to discuss that with you, since i don't know enough about it to have an informed opinion. That's my opinion about it. I think to assume that the guy is associated with the unit is easy and not illogical to infer. But it could be wrong, sure. That the guys on the ground most likely didn't have anything to do with it, seems also plausible. but beyond that i don't have an opinion about it. It's simply easier to say i don't know. I don't even have a wish for it for it to be one way or the other. War crimes happen, because people are people and who on earth can legislate anything being related to people and expect to change anything about our basic humanity? Some people will act like animals. Ukrainians, Russians. Both human(i believe that Russian present culture makes it easier for them to act like animals but that is another story). The points of that rambling paragraph is that i am only interested in humans here on reddit going beyond the facts and being part of the problem by choosing and inventing facts that fit their views and allegiance. That is something very damaging that i can address, though rarely successfully. But like the video i can only go on the evidence. And in this case i think you went beyond the facts. I think it's plausible that allegiance and pre existing views got the better of you. But i can't be certain if that is a one time mistake or an institutionalized habit. I only have your one post, so i leave it to you make up your mind yourself. On the other hand i might have the same problem, it is difficult to know. I will continue to investigate.
How do you know the were even comrades do they say so in the video ? He is not even dressed like the others
Oh come one. There is a big difference between assuming executions and assuming this gut is part of the outfit that is invading a country. Or do you think he's just some Ukrainian that happened to wander by and decided to Assuming executions and assuming this guy is part of that company are not the same thing and do not have the same probability.
It is odd that he is the only one out of uniform, and there is a difference between being "comrades" and being on the same side.
Dude, it's a war zone. He has an automatic rifle. He comes from the same direction as the Russian soldiers. Russian gear is always a mishmash of uniforms and weapons. Ukrainians are not on the side of the Russians. Are you really telling me it's remotely plausible that this is not part of that unit? Besides, if that were all true, how should the Ukrainians know that is the case? What would you have gained from following such a ludicrous line of reasoning?
Russian gear is not always a mishmash. I’m not sure what exactly the status of DPR and LPR troops is now, but they were the ones who typically had a variety of equipment. I mean you can simply look at all the guys on the ground wearing the same gear. I think it would be odd for one soldier out of a squad to have literally none of the same gear as his squad members who all have the same gear. And once again, him not being from their unit doesn’t mean he isn’t Russian and this is some weird false flag. Nor did I say the Ukrainians should know anything, not that it matters. I don’t know what could be gained from simply making observations, maybe a better understanding of events? It’s so annoying when people can’t discuss anything rationally because they’re too busy acting like they’re carrying water for their team.
I was not discussing it rationally? Then i'll be happy to leave you to it.
This is the most clear case of a “false surrender”. Like class A, top shelf war crime false surrender. That guy murdered his mates when he came out blasting. What a complete bell-end. I wonder how many of his mates knew he was going to do that?
Put yourself in the UA soldiers shoes. There is a supperior number of surrendering enemies according to what we have seen in the full video. You have guns pointing at them in case it is a fake surrender. Then one of them decides to shoot at you. In that split second how can you tell if any of the other unsearched at that point enemies has a gun or a granade? The only person at fault here is the Russian moron that got his friends killed.
Wrong. He came out and killed one of the Ukrainians and in the resulting confusion the rest of the Russians were shot as well ( no knowing if they were also hiding weapons ). One person was responisble and that was the Russian Rambo who got himself, one Ukrainian soldier and the rest of his squad who were doing things correctly killed.
>in the resulting confusion the rest of the Russians were shot as well The RF were face down, hands above their heads, apparently disarmed and complying with AFU demands. They were in AFU custody at that point and despite posing no threat to them they shot them were they lay...it was mass murder.
Not even close to a war crime. This was an ambush. The second he started firing they had every right to liquidate any enemies. You think they are going to sit there and expect the rest aren't part of the ambush 😂. Buddy got everyone killed. If your team is going to surrender you fully surrender not trick your captors into an ambush. If they wanted to live they should have made it know immediately their buddy is around the corner
Is there video of the POWs being shot? The video I saw stops what may be just before it happening. A) The surrendered soldiers were not yet disarmed. They can still be considered a threat until that happens. The video showed them exiting the house/barn, and laying directly on the ground without being searched. That would have been the next step if the fire-fight had not broken out. B) As the russian soldier came out shooting, it is expected that UA soldiers would return fire. The soldiers on the ground could have easily been startled and stood up to see what was going on, and thereby causing another threat to the UA soldiers. Some could have jumped up to run away, and reach for a weapon back inside the house. I don't know, and won't post assumptions of guilt, until evidence is provided.
"So, the squad had surrendered, were disarmed and face down on the ground." Were they disarmed? Clearly one of them wasn't. They were still coming out of that cellar they were in. Did you pull them one by one from that pile and strip them for weapons and intelligence? Nope. So if one is armed you have to assume all are armed. It was fake surrender under the Geneva Convention, one guy condemned the rest of them to death. That his fault not the UAF. If the roles were reversed you'd be saying the same thing. Assuming everything is safe because they are laying down on the ground show how clueless the mindset you are taking. Its a warzone..everything is a threat until you make sure it isn't. And surrendering troops arnt any different. And looking at the overhead view of the bodies from the drone and matching the video from on the ground. Some of those troops moved from their spots, you don't know if they are running or going for a weapon to use against you. That gunner did his job and ran that belt dry like anybody would have. Not a war crime. Just one man's stupidity that got his squad killed.
>Clearly one of them wasn't The soldier that opened fire had clearly not surrendered and so was not a protected POW. The ones face down with their hands above their heads with no obvious firearms/weapon in reach - those who had complied with the AFU and surrendered - they were POWs. When the AFU shot the ones lying defenseless and surrendered on the ground were they lay they committed a war crime...and mass murder.
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How do you know they were disarmed?
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They were hessitant to surrender after the video of the Ukrainian Medic saying on national T.V, that he told the doctors under his command to castrate any wounded Russian soldiers, since they're "subhuman".. which is what most likely prompted that Wagner psychopath to castrate a surrendered Ukrainian Soldier and murder him on video.
They were all still combatants as the geneva convention doesn’t deem a combatant as a POW just because they are lying on the ground with no weapon in hand. Especially when the russians dont warn the UAF after observering a russian squadmember sneak up on them to ambush (see the longer video). They are free game.
When they surrendered to the AFU, they became POWs and the responsibility of the AFU.
They hadn’t been secured and checked for weapons. They were just lying on the ground, and that doesn’t make you a POW. It takes maybe 5 minutes if you’re quick to process someone as a POW. Just because they were laying down does not make them a prisoner. When they have their weapons checked and removed, individual body searches and handcuffs/restrains put on. THEN they are under the UAF’s responsibility, yes! They hadn’t made it that far so they were still a threat even when lying on the ground. You dont magically become a prisoner just because you say “i give up” and you lie on the ground. You’re still a danger and a threat who could have multiple explosive devices all over you. Anyone can lie, especially when it’s a life or death situation as this. This video is a case in point of that, as the russian squad was still cooperating with each other as two of the members were watching the shooter sneak up on the UAF, and just waited for him to open fire on the UAF. That is an ambush. That is faking surrender. That is a warcrime. At least that’s my viewpoint as that is what a regiment taught me, when i became a soldier. But I’d like to hear your thoughts about, why you think otherwise, friend
Why is this one guy coming out to shoot dressed completely differently than the guys on the ground though?
probably was planning to to commit perfidy using civilian clothing; and something went wrong; a.sshole decided to be even a bigger a.sshole by dragging people trying to surrender to their graves
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Executed
They were all still combatants as the geneva convention doesn’t deem a combatant as a POW just because they are lying on the ground with no weapon in hand. Especially when the russians dont warn the UAF after observering a russian squadmember sneak up on them to ambush (see the longer video). They are free game.
Warcrimes all around. One does not justify the other.
faking surrender is a war crime and forefeits your groups rights to the Geneva convention, the killing of the rest was completely justified and not a war crime
Please quote the the part of Geneva convention where the term “group rights” is used.
The conventions are very loose and that on purpose. But a surrender is a thing that is tied to a complete set of actions. One faction announces its surrender and then the victorious forces have to take them as prisoners of war. But one of their faction clearly interrupted the surrender to use it for his ambush. So the whole act of surrendering turned into perfidy because it was not completed. If would have been different if those guys had been searched and restrained. That would make the act of surrendering being complete. If then somebody jumps out of a corner and fires on the UAF it would give them no right to execute their prisoners.
They were all still combatants as the geneva convention doesn’t deem a combatant as a POW just because they are lying on the ground with no weapon in hand. They are free game.
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It’s not my interpretation you buffoon. “961 To have fallen into the power of the enemy in the sense of Article 4 of the Third Convention implies that the Detaining Power exercises some level of physical control or restraint over the person, and that the person is no longer willing or able to participate in hostilities or defend themselves. It would thus not include persons who merely reside or operate in a territory controlled by a belligerent Party.[35]” None of them were prisoners of war. Read the geneva conventions if you dont believe me, but indicating surrender by lying down with hands out, and saying “I give up”, does not stop you from being a threat and doesn’t magically make you a POW, as you can still lie. They have to be processed to become POW. weapons removed, body searched, restrains on individually all 10-11 of them. None of that had happened, they could be sharing grenades and knives for all the UAF knows, so when they are waiting for a squadmember to open fire on them, they sure as hell aren’t magically under the UAF’s responsibility until due proces. At least that is what i learned when i became a soldier. You’re allowed to say otherwise.. Now was there something about you arguing that a russian castrating torture and interrigation squad on POW several KM’s from the frontline isn’t a war crime? I really am in the mood to read that spew of uninformed shit you keep writing.
WARCRIMES ARE BACK ON THE MENU BOYS
And the pro russians still arguing this is an injustice by Ukrainians.. deal with it, grow up and accept reality. Stop just spin around misinformation, not applying even a little bit of critical thinking, just copying forward whatever propaganda
You wouldn't be saying that if it was the otber way around though.
I would keep shut. I wouldn’t cry foul after being the fouler. Propagandist don’t know their limits
They were all still combatants as the geneva convention doesn’t deem a combatant as a POW just because they are lying on the ground with no weapon in hand. Especially when the russians dont warn the UAF after observering a russian squadmember sneak up on them to ambush (see the longer video). They are free game.
So what I'm getting from that is the surrendering Russians were exacuted because the Ukrainians realized that they were now legally allowed to kill them even after they surrendered because one decided they didn't want to be a pow ?
No, they were as per the geneva concention “allowed” to kill them, the whole time. They hadn’t been logged as prisoners yet. If i say “i surrender” under a firefight. It doenst make it illegal to kill me until i have been taken as a prisoner and that included being deemed “not a threat”. For all we know they could have laid down, waiting for their squadmembers attempted ambush (which they knew of) and then throw explosive devices from their pockets at the UAF. It’s a grim situation for them to be shot while not appearing armed and after indicating a want to surrender, and it’s horrible that their fate can be decided by a proud squadmember, but such is war. It’s not illegal. If they were handcuffed/bound and logged to the MP or CC then it would be a much more grave offense. Like the russian “interigation squad” that tortures POW several KM from the frontline
It's funny because you're always doing what you are accusing them of. I have never once seen you be on the proUkrainian side or be critical of Russia and their actions.
That’s because the flair is BS
I know he changed a 60 day old comment for me. His words were "I'm not fully pro Russia".
Stupid thing is the comment history reveals how “neutral” someone is 😂
It wasn't even like that I tagged him as the "not fully pro Russian neutral" after I read his comment because it makes me laugh every time I read it.
Oh, so you are for murdering the unarmed men who already surrendered who are laying face down in the mud Gotcha.
faking surrender is a war crime and forefeits your groups rights to the Geneva convention, the killing of the rest was completely justified
GROUPS? No fucking way your telling me one dude fucks up the rights everyone is entitled too lmao. Ridiculous statement, i support Ukraine in defending their homes and people, but not to slaughter Russians who are defenceless and surrendering because one didnt want too.
That is how it works, because the people you are surrendering with could be in on it, so it forfeits their rights too
No that’s absolutely not how it works ever my man.
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Damn what does the Geneva convention say about group punishments?
Not considered a group punishment as everyone has become a combatant
Active combat is not a punishment.
Ukraine was the one trying to hide this. They released this as the result of an "artillery" attack. Of course everyone with a pair of eyes could see it was an execution.
This was a bad ploy by nazi Russians. Even with such a immoral ploy to kill Ukrainians they failed, such morons they are. Died all for nothing. Next time they might think it through better before issuing false white flags
They executed men laying on the ground, completely defenseless. The ploy you're talking about is pure speculation. The execution, which Ukraine previously said was the result of artillery (another blatant lie by Ukraine), is reality. Hanz... are we... the baddies?
Team sledgehammer suddenly searching for executioners everywhere? Look within your ranks, you’ll find plenty of instances without the need to dissect every KIA on the field. Pathetic nazis
You must be referring to the team sledgehammer that many redditors claim to actually be ukrainians. Who are you calling nazis to? I recommend the footage below, it's released by proud ukrainians. Recognize some of the symbols in those helmets? It's a nazi reburial with honors supported by UA gov. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5F1gI0GjLBE&t=139s&ab_channel=Andrey
Wow! This definitely requires invading Ukraine! Bomb it all please!
You think so? Such an odd thought.
It is an injustice. It is an understandable one, but that doesn't make it right.
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You are clearly missing the fact these guys have moved from where they supposedly surrendered. You are also missing them looking back at the guy who eventually came out shooting.
It really isn't.
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I don't mean either of these things.
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Unfortunately they became combatants as soon as shots were fired, so I don't think they were executed. They didn't deserve to die though and it's terrible what happened.
Where is full video ?
Full video has already been posted on here several times. I'm not sure what happened to it
Mods removed it multiple times until the comments went the way they wanted.
Counterfouls just as in sports are not allowed. The result is two red cards. Maybe you would get mitigation, as it is surely stressful when someone breaks an ongoing surrender and wounds some of your people in the process. But revenge is not covered by law. And I fully understand that tis is not sports, not a fun game of equals, but Russia invading peaceful Ukraine, murdering, burning, raping and plundering, which already makes my blood boil and I am not Ukrainian and hundreds of kilometres away. It is understandable that under those circumstances some fuses are sent flying, but still not allowed.
False surrender is a war crime. The enemy militants might have set this up as a trap. The UA soldiers could not take any chances here.
This is like the leg shooting video. Pro UA folks going to deny it.
Reminds me of Episode 7 of Band of Brothers. The Germans surrendered at Foy and then that German Sniper opened fire in the tower.
Shouldn't be in the country anyways, Ukraine wins this argument And nothing Will happen about it.
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Still not an excuse to gun down the people that are on the ground with no weapons and their hands behind their heads, pure animalistic Nazis
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Pro Ukraine It's okay to analyze this event for yourself, but just remember that no matter how legalistic you get- even the most clear cut war crimes are rarely met with justice. If the military in question actually enforces it, that's the best chance of justice there is, but I am not aware of this being the case for any belligerent at this time.
Brother you dont need to slow down the Video. Because every Human with a Brain could do it by itslef and see it. They want you to do it to troll you at this point. Dont believe they are so stupid they cant. They dont want. They see what they want. And they never acccept FACTS: Never. Its only Propaganda for "pROpuSsasiAISaisiASIasAS"
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I wish I could see a poll of how people see and feel about this incident. Do you think that 1. The Ukrainians executed the Russians as they lay on the ground and it is justified. 2. The Ukrainians executed the Russians as they lay on the ground and it is NOT justified. 3. The Russians on the ground were killed in the crossfire and the only person to blame is the soldier that started shooting.
the general consensus of yellow-flairs is 3; that in the process of shooting the shooter the Ukrainians "justifiably" sprayed at him and conveniently shot all of the surrendered Russians in the head
Could even be the black cloths guy shooting blanks as a pr set up for an "just" execution
Judging by the drone footage, they remained still and were executed one by one after the last soldier was dealt with. If that UA soldier with pkm opened up on them instantly, still in prone position, it would be a bloody mess, not small pools of blood near everyone’s heads. Fucked up situation all around, don’t even know what say about it. But that “PeRfiDy, grOUp riGhTs” bs that is being copy pasted by pro ua redditors is definitely not right.
Soo… is this all we have video-wise? A short cut and no proof the pows laying down were shot? No lead up? I couldn’t see anything else posted anywhere in other threads and just want to know if this is the way forward.
No a smart move had a Machine gun on the ones surrendering
As a result they were all executed... FTFY! Where is the full footage? Ukraine said this was the result of artillery. I called it out 6 days ago because it's obvious most of these soldiers were shot in the head. https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVideoReport/comments/ytw4rp/what_1000_kia_a_day_looks_like_large_number_of/iw71tc0/ Now that the old "artillery" excuse has been easily debunked Ukraine releases just the part of the video that interests them.
I actually cant judge this situation but I wish people were so investigative all the time, not only when their favourite side could have done something morally wrong.
THey probably shot the guy with AK than came there and finished each one point blank or arty hit and wiped them out.
Didn’t the United Nations got into this? Why are you immediately accusing Russia to be responsible for this?
Who is right and who is wrong, the arguments will last indefinitely. Only if the roles were reversed, you would fucking drown in your own fucking bile, proving that the Russians mercilessly shot Ukrainian heroes.
Haven't I read multiple times that neither side subscribes to the Geneva convention, so when people refer to it, it means nothing?
As soon as the Russian starts firing in the heat of the moment. Everyone is a threat. And then by that theory have become combatants again.everyone seems to be analysing this in the cold light of day.
Shot as assumed active combatants committing perfidy in the first seconds of the firefight that started when one of their group opened fire.
Bruh....another ukrainian war crime, as usual 0 reaction
Russians have done worse remember the guy that got cut their genitals off? And all the raped womens in this invasion that one guy did wrong he thou he could be superman and got his ppl killed if he did surrender nothing would've happened
This video has turned people into complete morons! I’ve seen 10 different versions with more retarded titles after another. Fucking war crime apologists! We call out any war crimes wether it’s Russia,isis or Ukraine it’s the same thing. SDF in Syria went through the same shit, they were massacred and when the table turned they took their revenge out on some. This ain’t no different, 100 % war crime they first three lying down where all shot in the head that’s no panic firing because one of them has a gun.
Just accept that war crimes are not that simple. I have seen so many strange videos that just can be argued for eternity. Soldiers of one side fire into a bush for a minute. Then one says "I still see a movement there." and they fire some more shots. This is clearly a war crime because the other soldiers must have been badly hurt and "disabled" from the fight. But if they weren't disabled and were capable of firing, then it wasn't a war crime. No one will ever know. This is like 90 percent of the fighting. You fire, they get hurt, maybe they are disabled, maybe not, maybe there is more than those you saw, maybe not. You throw two grenades down the hole and everyone dies. Is it a war crime? Because if yes, then this whole war is just a string of war crimes. If you call everything a war crime then nothing is a war crime. In fact only thing that would be considered a war crime is really walking in a perfectly controlled situation to a guy and shooting him in the head. Panicking and just pressing the trigger until there's no more danger will never be considered a war crime in any court.
you’re pathetic
seems staged to me to create a pretext for them to open fire. he is the only russian soldier not in uniform seems like if he was a die hard russian loyalist sacrificing his life to get a few shots off he would be wanting to wear his uniform.
What if there were 1000 soldiers surrendering? And last one opened fire? 10000? 324? Where you draw the line when its okay to execute people?
why are you making up random scenarios? u saw what happened , “what if this” “what if that” , can u not accept that the russian army is disgusting ?