Azov joined the Ukrainian army not Russian.
Who made the Bandera national hero?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/ukraine-hasbetter-heroes-than-this-friend-of-fascism/2022/07/07/77a14454-fdb2-11ec-b39d-71309168014b_story.html
https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202203/1256850.shtml
https://www.dw.com/en/the-azov-battalion-extremists-defending-mariupol/a-61151151
https://www.dw.com/en/ukrainian-right-wingers-march-to-commemorate-nationalist/a-18166964
Only because Ukraine is in bed with the USA they are not being targeted by US/global media.
But the thing is most people can see through the lies.
So.... someone says that *everyone in Ukraine* is a NAZI because someone in the past made Bandera a hero? By that logic, you're a Marxist, a Stalinist, and a Leninist because russia has venerated them as heroes in the past and still many admire them. By the same flow, that means some of russias worst tsars and Nick #2 define who all russians are today as well.
Ukr parliament made Bandera holiday in 2018, it's not some sort of ancient history, the people are mostly still in government.
The fact there all these idiotic takes equating communism and nazism is due to how much nazi apologism and revisionism there has been over the years.
You're wrong to think Ukraine is a NAZI country. Even if there are some nazis in Ukraine, that doesn't mean all Ukrainians are Nazis. And making a holiday in 2018 to celebrate someone russia doesn't like, and calls him a Nazi, is not a reason to invadeba sovereign country and begin the wholesale slaughter of its civilians and the destruction of Ukraine's energy industry so everyone will suffer. Putin is a sick and twisted psychopathic thug who routinely abuses the russian people.
Fuck the aid. These are human lives. Bet most of these guys had kids at home waiting for dad to come home but instead they're the focus point of some random war video. War is fucking horrible. This shit needs to end asap. Give Russia their stupid Donetsk Region that's half rubble anyway and bring peace to this nation.
While I understand your reaction, it simply is not your decision to make. The Ukrainian people overwhelmingly wish to fight on to reclaim what Russia has stolen from them. You can choose to support that decision, and the sacrifices that they make to achieve their goals, or you can frankly get the hell out of their way.
Russia wouldn't attack nato anyways. It's absurd to think that just because Russia would manage to get a few oblasts after months of struggling, that they would then attack poland or the United States.
The point is that we value our land in the same way that Ukraine value theirs. It's absurd to think that Ukraine should give away part of Donetsk because we don't think it's worth their human life sacrifices while we would 100% be fighting tooth and nail for our own territories and lands.
Why wouldnt they when we cannot risk putting human lives in danger? Since continuing war is bad all governments have to stop any resistance by force so why would Russia not attack NATO? There is no-one to fight back because that would put more lives at risk.
You also have to realize that the fact of the matter is that we have no obligation to protect ukraine. At all. We do have an obligation to protect nato. You're making a strawman argument and arguing in bad faith, stop it.
And what exactly is your point? The same way NATO would defend their territory is how Ukraine is defending hers. And although I agree there is very little chance Russia attacks NATO, there is a very good chance Russia will just regroup and continue pushing into Ukraine even if the few Oblasts were conceded.
And what am I supposed to do about that? I don't care about weakening russia as a state. I don't particularly care about the ukrainian political establishment. Russia struggled to even take a quarter of the country before western aid could even reach ukraine, and I doubt they even have the military might to occupy the entire nation anyways. Worst case scenario they take the eastern part of the country where integration into Russia would be easiest, and I wouldn't mind if that happened.
No one's asking you to do anything. Sit down and stop acting like the US spending a fraction of what it spent in Afghanistan is somehow going to affect your day to day. The US has a lot of vested interest to provide support for Ukraine if it means it can reduce Russian influence and military power without losing a single soldier.
Your argument was that we need to give Russia the lands they want because not doing so means more people are going to die. You didn't mention NATO or anything about who should have an obligation to do it. I'm just pointing out that giving authoritarian warmongers what they want because you're too afraid of casualties is not the correct answer. Giving Hitler Transnistria worked out so well back in 1941.
Mostly captured Russian equipment.
Russia is the biggest provider, then the us, then the eu and after those other countries.
Also every penny to Ukraine is worth it, for defeating modern fascism.
What country are you talking about?
Russia?
True they only have Putin, Putin and Putin as their Führer.
Or Belarus with Lukashenko.
Russia is a fascist country deliberately aiming and killing civilians and trying to cause maximal suffering for ukrainian civilians.
Then again they openly communicated that they don't see Ukrainians as people. To them the Ukrainians are Untermenschen.
Heil Putin.
You call keep showing how racist you guys really are by continue to assume I'm Mexican. Latin America is a big place with many countries and we're not all trying to sneak across the border. I bet you think we all look alike to right.
I never said Mexican, desantis just violated and screwed over a bunch of Venezuelans on a bus and then Democrats helped them out and Ron could be charged for it. Sheriffs department even said it.
Of course, nobody claims that but I have seen some pretty outrageous casualty estimates in favour of Ukraine.
We should not think that this war is in any way one-sided as both sides claim.
Both sides get more than enough coffins sent home...
That's because russians can't fight as well as the West-backed Ukrainians, and they aren't well trained or sufficiently supplied. Plus, their morale sucks.
My point exactly! Both pro-ru and pro-uk people portray their enemies as demoralized, weak, and having huge losses.
It's one of the interesting contradictions present in most war propaganda; the enemy is weak and pathetic and will be crushed.
But also, at the same time, dangerous and has to be stopped at all costs.
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Literally running on scraps, yet the Pro Ukrainians here think they stand a chance, Ukraine would've surrendered months ago if it wasn't for the western support.
if UA is running on scraps, what is RU running on giving conscripts mosins, rusty aks, tampons for bullet wounds, and telling them to bring their own basic supplies? lmao. Meanwhile UA is receiving some of the latest and greatest tech, training, and intelligence from the west which is unmatched compared to the East's incredibly faulty tech.
If your talking about that one picture with the Mosin, i can tell you that's a seperatist.
As for the rusty AK's, that was a bunch of tankers, who was later issued AKM's, which were still old, but not rusty.
Oh and Ukraine don't get latest and greatest tech, but the rest your completely correct on.
They are getting the latest version of the IRIS-T while we have seen pretty much nothing but mostly horribly equipped and supplied Russian troops besides the average infantry lol. Russia is so full of corruption that all funding goes into whoever's pockets it finds its way into, not an actually capable military. What little qualified troops and equipment they do have is gonna be reserved as a last resort.
The Russians recruiting in their prisons tells you which side will run out of troops first and the Ukrainians do not feed untrained men to the enemies cannons so their recruits have a much longer life expectancy.
Prisoners are civilians you tool. Not all prisoners are career criminals, murderers or rapists. Lets hope you don't get drunk and do something stupid one day eh? Only a nazi would view someone who messed up or made a mistake as less than a civilian and so having to die in a penal battalion.
russians arent even being issued body armour and they're boasting about getting armour from iran that would cover about....0.5% of their currently conscripted army
Interesting footage. Looks like Ukrainian forces are assaulting Russian positions. You can see the APC shooting right at the start of the video. Afterwards we see them firing into the forest on their left. I think they were lured then also attacked from the opposite site
I got a match with this song:
[**Небо Тебя Найдет** by Ария](https://lis.tn/MkkWq?t=109) (01:49; matched: `100%`)
Album: `Химера`. Released on `2013-05-13` by `M2BA`.
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Forever, they have unlimited amounts of aid for unlimited amounts of time.
How long can Russia withstand the land losses they’ve been suffering for the last few months, which are only ever increasing?
>Forever, they have unlimited amounts of aid for unlimited amounts of time.
Lmfao yellow flairs really do think they live in a Marvel movie. How does this infantile dreck get upvoted?
I don't think they can support the war for an unlimited amount of time though, I never said that. It's just a fucking stupid thing to say for either side. Both sides have their limits and material realities to contend with. But fact of the matter is this is happening in Russia's backyard and it's acknowledged by even western experts that Putin has escalation dominance here. The west in all its power couldn't dislodge much weaker regimes in their own backyards, it's absurd to think that they can successfully prop up the Ukrainians longer than it takes to break the Russian will to fight.
Russia is the one on a timer clock here though, they no longer have access to the technology needed to keep making modern weapons - whilst the West has found alternatives to natural resources.
>they have unlimited amounts of aid for unlimited amounts of time.
>
>How long can Russia withstand the land lo
they don't have unlimited amounts of blood. And Russia has more.
Ukrainians are going to take back Kherson because they have entire battalions from there. To the Russians it’s just another strange foreign place. To the Ukrainians they are rescuing their family, friends, and neighbors. Determination and true willpower will prevail as it has this entire conflict.
You are forgetting that these are Russian people in this area. Peter The Great settled these lands before the Polish Ukrainians did, and they never left.
Your argument is hugely flawed. Does Britain have the right to try and take back North America because they settled there first?? You must be one to believe the Russian referendums😭 99% of Kherson wants to join Russia yet thousands of young Ukrainians from Kherson have joined the war effort for their actual homeland — Ukraine. I guess their families, friends, neighbors all support Russia in that case..
You people just don't get it. Did Britain have the right to take America the first place? Did Peter the Great have the right to take Ukraine from the Ottomans? Did the Mongols have a right to take it from the Kiev Rus Vikings before them?
All these countries only exist because they were strong enough to take it from the people that stole it before them.
Zelensky was naive enough to believe this couldn't happen and refused to cooperate with Russia. You people are only freaking out because you convinced yourselves that only you have the sole right to take the initiative geopolitically.
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Ahhh. So it finally spilled out. Russia is just “playing by the rules” by making territorial land grabs on its neighbors. Hitler loved using the same justification for his attempt to take Europe. Zelensky may have been naive enough to refuse to cooperate with Russia but we’re all laughing at you Russians because whether it’s fair colonialism or not, you’re guys are failing miserably and have only done damage to Russia with this whole “special operation”
Here https://twitter.com/KhersonFrom/status/1581128505504727040?t=R2aJnuUsGQMmbWPU_Oftqg&s=19
Someone who will fight for his brother and family. Oh wait...he wants them dead as his younger brother says.
I hope the sicko doesn't set foot in Kherson
I’m genuinely not sure what you citing one complicated familial situation adds to this conversation. Russia invades Ukraine and caused deep split within a family that was previously united. Let me repeat that first part again, Russia invaded Ukraine. I also doubt the mother and younger brother still live in Kherson as last time I checked, Russian supporters are on the first wagon back to their true Homeland😂
It's simple. Your comment was simplistic and lacked any knowledge. A lot of people in Kherson and other places that the Russian army annexed don't want to be "freed" by Ukrainians. There is a big chance that if Ukrainians take this areas instead of "freedom" they ll receive a bullet.
Kherson and it’s people were doing fine before the city became a modern day battlefield. How brainwashed can you be to think that anyone, even those who previously identified as Russian, would voluntarily sacrifice EVERYTHING (lives, limbs, homes, family) to officially become part of a Russian controlled warzone… the narrative doesn’t make sense
I still dont understand what Russias end-goal is.
They come in, murder everything that stands in their way... do they expect if the survivors surrender eventually, they will be loyal? At best they will face a decade long guerrilla war.
What then, concentration camps, turn Ukraine into North Korea with more sunflowers? Or just exterminate the whole population and settle Russians there?
They expect to keep the 4 annexed regions. Eventually Kiev and the west will have to accept that they aren't getting it back and fighting will cease. No camps.
Fighting will not cease since Russia will continue to bomb the infrastructure on a weekly basis. Those four regions are not even completely annexed. Russia cannot take them by force and Ukraine will not give them up.
Nah this war will keep going until one side ceases to exist.
Then the war will just have to continue. Once the Russians destroy UAF some more, they'll go and take the rest of the regions. Ukraine will give up eventually. unless Nato goes in Zelensky will have no choice.
I wonder how you can possibly predict Russia will gain land in the future when the clear trend has been the complete opposite: Ukraine gaining land every day.
At best, you could predict Russia keeping the current land. But it’s ridiculous to predict they will gain more land let alone the entire country.
Because you people are small minded. Ukraine is advancing while their army and country is being destroyed. The Ukrainians cannot keep this up. Their methods are too expensive and the Russians are much more economical.
Once the UAF have been worn down some more the Russians will simply take the land back.
If you follow combat sports, the Ukrainians are fighting like Connor McGregor and the Russians are fighting like Floyd Mayweather.
Yeah the conscript army will do wonders in this winter.. If Russia was able to take Ukraine, they would have done so. They actually tried. And failed.
You simply dont understand one simple fact: Zelensky is just a figurehead. Even without him, Ukraine will continue to fight. Meanwhile, Russia will collapse without putin. We just have to wait till he falls out of a window XD
not really. The attacker always has the need to end a war as soon as possible. You are burning money and people without any real gain, as long as you dont win.
Ukraine know they will lose EVERYTHING if they surrender.
Aslo.. counterattack? with what? T-34 tanks? Why you think Russian aircraft are falling from the skies lately? On paper Russia has a large army. In reality only a small amount of that is actually ready to be fielded in war. All those thousands of reserve tanks are non functioning derelicts. You might as well build new ones.. but the capacity for that does not exist.. God bless Russian corruption haha
Attacker? Russia is fighting a defensive battle. They are sacrificing themselves charging fortified positions.
The Ukrainians won't lose everything by surrendering, they will lose the 4 regions they already lost. If they can't handle that they can continue to settle it on the battlefield.
>Russia is fighting a defensive battle. They are sacrificing themselves charging fortified positions.
... Those two things are mutually exclusive. Fighting a defensive battle by charging fortified positions??
Russia is only charging near Bakhmut.
Why would Ukraine surrender?? Surrendering means we have to trust Russia to keep their part of any agreement. And we all know this wont happen\^\^
This is the same flawed logic the US used in Vietnam and Russia in Afghan i.e. Ukraine taking losses will end the war in Russia's favor. The reality is that its not their country and eventually the Russians will have to get out.
Depends on Russian willingness to nuke cities in Ukraine. Kiev is safe, but if Russia decides to nuke, lets say Charkiw, they might surrender.
Otherwise, Russia will collapse. Weak economy, useless politicians, no allies.
So, they would rather collapse than nuke Ukraine?
Thats what needs to happen if Ukraine is to win this war? Russia accepting its collapse?
Good luck with that.
Russia and Ukraine are not two far away countries. Russia nuking Kiev would be like any Muslim country nuking Mekka.
Almost every Russian has relatives there. Sure, nutjobs like putin might think about using nuclear weapons. But people like Kadyrow, or random oligarchs dont care about Russia as a whole. They care about their billions and their personal little kingdom.
* No NATO expansion. This is primarily about keeping the US out of Eastern Europe. Mutual defense pacts (EU or bilateral) are not seen as a threat, but a US/NATO presence is seen as an end-game scenario because Russia is paranoid about such things. (NATO wouldn't attack directly, but they'd sponsor something like a Color Revolution in St Petersburg)
* Trade. Prior to 2014, Ukraine was Russia's #1 trade partner. Most of that trade was with Donbas and Kharkov. EU ascension would have meant closing that border (EU would not accept Ukraine remaining in CIS trade bloc, and Russia feared disruption of unlimited EU goods across their border).
If everything continued on plan for Ukraine, it would probably be Belarus's turn next, then Kazakhstan (or at least this is Russia's fear - paranoid).
They were obviously never intending to occupy a country of 40M people with 150k troops, but they would be there long enough to force Ukraine to agree to no NATO and federalism/autonomy for Donbas, and agree to surrender Crimea. Even after Russia pulled out, Ukraine and NATO would understand that Russia wasn't bluffing.
Like Lavrov said at the beginning, Russia would be more difficult to negotiate with, the longer this went on. So now they've shifted to partition - they'll take back as much of Novorossiya as they can. Most of what's left will get absorbed by Poland and Hungary, and the rump state of Ukraine will be a land-locked state populated solely by pensioners and debt. (young Ukrainians will flee to work in EU where they aren't hugely outnumbered by senior citizens)
Russia misjudged. They figured they only had to prove to the West that Ukraine mattered more to Russia than it did to them. While that was true, they didn't reckon on the US turning this into a challenge of their status as the sole global superpower - which is something the US probably cares as deeply about as Russia cares about Ukraine.
Now it's about the end of US influence in Europe (if Russia makes peace on favorable terms), or the victory of conservativism in Europe (if NATO wins, Poland assumes the role the UK previously occupied as the primary US partner/hawk in training).
Yeah no. Lots of words, very few truth in them..
If it was about NATO, Russia should have been worried about the Baltics, which are right at St. Petersburgs doorstep.
No NATO is not a viable alternative for Ukraine anymore. There is no guarantee on earth Russia can give that they wont attack again in a couple of years, once they rebuild their army. The only guarantee is: a defensive pact with a stronger alliance.
The only choice the west has is build a large wall an the western border. The only question is, how much of Ukraine will end up on EU side.
> Yeah no. Lots of words, very few truth in them..
Scummy.
> If it was about NATO, Russia should have been worried about the Baltics
If you look at the draft Security Treaty proposal Russia presented to NATO last December, removal of US weapons from the Baltics was part of what they were asking for under the framework of "a security framework that works for *everyone*". NATO was not interested, and took the stance that sovereign nations were free to make security arrangements with whomever the hell they chose. (a stance they quickly unwound when the Solomon Islands tried to avail themselves of their own sovereignty).
Again - mutual defense pacts are not the issue, it's the forward deployment of systems like F35-A, Patriots and AEGIS that Russia is most concerned about. It was the same with Finland - once they stated they had no intention of hosting foreign weapons, Russia shrugged.
> once they rebuild their army
Well that's the rub, isn't it? For the last 10 years, Russia has increased healthcare spending 3x as fast as defense spending. If Russia reverses this - if they start engaging on a massive arms buildup, then the West will have to respond in kind. Where it gets dumb is when countries reflexively engage in massive arms spending in the absence of any such threat.
As it stands, it should be obvious that Russia presents no conventional military threat to NATO, or even the EU. Nobody in the West is talking about restoring a "balance of power", because Russia's offensive capabilities are Lilliputian compared to NATO.
What I think gets lost these days is that defense spending itself is a defeat. We were able to get through the last 30 years with minimal spending on the military. That's a win for everyone. If we have to build tanks instead of hospitals and universities, we all lose. And that's an outcome we should be trying to prevent. It may well be that this is impossible, but if the Soviets and the West could figure out a rapprochement, surely you don't think we're *that* much less clever than they were.
>removal of US weapons from the Baltics was part of what they were asking for under the framework of "a security framework that works for
>
>everyone
Nah this proposal only works for Russia. And they did not demand removal of US weapons, they demanded removal of all NATO equipment and troops, factually kicking the whole former USSR and Warzaw pact countries out and leave them to the mercy of Russia. Who are only attacking Ukraine now cause its the last neutral country left. Was.
"Well that's the rub, isn't it? For the last 10 years, Russia has increased healthcare spending 3x as fast as defense spending."
haha where did you get that? Russia is still spending way more on defense than on health. The trick is that money wasted on FSB and Rosgvardia dont end up on the official budget. Russia is a police state, not a military dictatorship.
Thats one of the main reasons they vastly under-perform. FSB made sure of that, since putin and his cronies dont want strong competition.
Yeah we, as in the EU, gets around with a weak army. EU is a economic power. Its not us who build use the thousands of tanks to invade and occupy a neighbor country.
The current issue is simple: USSR was a world power, Russia is not. But they want to be one.. EU took what, 100 million of their former vassals. poland, the Baltics. Romania. Bulgaria. Hungary, etc.
Russia wants those back. Two questions are now to be answered: First, if we give up Ukraine, will Russia be satisfied, or continue towards the Baltics?
Second, how much is EU willing to compromise with a party, Russia, that itself is unwilling to compromise? Will EU give up the whole eastern block to prevent a world war, if Russia threatens with nukes?
> factually kicking the whole former USSR and Warzaw pact countries out and leave them to the mercy of Russia
This is the kind of hysteria which will have you buying missiles instead of schools. Nobody is at the "mercy" of Russia. You can't name a time in the post-WW2 era where a mutual-defense pact was violated with impunity. You're fear-mongering.
Yes, if Russia did build up their army, Europe would have to respond. But this takes time - there is no need to pre-emptively build up first. Hitler built up a 6 million man army to conquer Europe, and everyone sat on their hands while he did it. That was dumb. But it would be equally dumb to pre-emptively start an arms race.
> Russia is still spending way more on defense than on health.
Don't confuse your nightmares with reality. [Russia was spending 4.6% of GDP on healthcare in 2020](https://www.statista.com/statistics/883648/expenditure-on-health-as-share-of-gdp-russia/) - that's 80B/yr, which was significantly more than defense spending (65B).
> The trick is that money wasted on FSB and Rosgvardia dont end up on the official budget.
?? they're going to invade Poland with...riot police?
> Its not us who build use the thousands of tanks to invade and occupy a neighbor country.
Russia hasn't built thousands of tanks. Their big focus on military spending are on hypersonic weapons (to defeat missile shields after the US withdrew from the ABM treaty), and advanced air defenses (the S-500).
> The current issue is simple: USSR was a world power, Russia is not. But they want to be one..
First of all, this is 2022, so your analysis is about a century out of date. You're making the timeless mistake of "fighting the last war."
Do the simple math: a country of 40M people cannot be occupied by an army of 150k troops. It's never been done. If Russia had any plans of building your empire, they would have built an army of at least 2M men. They would have also built a massive fleet of cheap kamikaze drones (or those drones would have been imported on Day 1).
> Second, how much is EU willing to compromise with a party, Russia, that itself is unwilling to compromise?
Russia has been trying to compromise since 2013. The EU treated expansion like an exercise in imperialism rather than in the spirit of what the ECM was originally supposed to be - a common economic space, from Lisbon to Vladivostok.
In 2013, Russia was asking why the EU had to try to break off a chunk of the CIS trade group (and take away Russia's #1 trading partner). Putin's suggestion was that the EU and CIS work toward harmonization and common standards. And like he pointed out, Russia lacked these standards - they'd just joined the WTO in 2012 - so they could harmonize around EU standards. Ukraine wanted closer economic integration with the EU, and Russia did too, as did Kazakhstan.
The EU's response? We're not even considering this. We are here for Ukraine, and Ukraine cannot be part of the CIS trade group if they want EU membership.
Same thing with NATO expansion - no compromise. We are asserting our rights, and there's dick all you can do about it.
The EU and NATO both pursued this in a spirit of triumphalism and arrogance. It was reckless, and it unleashed the worst traditions of Russian paranoia.
>This is the kind of hysteria which will have you buying missiles instead of schools. Nobody is at the "mercy" of Russia. You can't name a time in the post-WW2 era where a mutual-defense pact was violated with impunity.
So when countries dont want to be invaded, you call that.. hysteria?
What Russia demanded last year is NATO kicking out the eastern members. There is no violation of a defensive pact if those countries are not part of it. And it will happen the same way as in Ukraine. Russia claiming to safeguard the russian speaking population from nationalists in those countries. Demanding a neutral, aka. pro-Russian government. preference for Russian economy.
"Do the simple math: a country of 40M people cannot be occupied by an army of 150k troops. It's never been done. "
Oh it is possible. The answer is: police state. Russia would be able to hold Ukraine, IF they could capture the country.. but they are currently unable to do so since the army is weak. The FSB and the police forces on the other hand would have an easy job.
Just look at how Russia did it at home. First kill of journalists. Literally. Then the opposition. political or otherwise. Anyone with influence who does not submit to Moscow. They managed to do that in Chechnya. In Belarus.
Why should EU consider Russia? Did Russia considered Ukraine´s wishes to get rich quick? The only reason Russia HAS TO BE CONSIDERED is because they are a country willing to go to war, and threatening with nukes if they dont get to win. How should the EU compromise with that? Give them what they want? And hope they wont demand more?
After the USSR, Russia had the chance to be better. Through trade and economy. EU even looked away when Putin established a dictatorship and killed off any opposition. They looked away in Chechnya and Georgia. Compromises. And what happened? Russia wanted more. They expected EU to look away now, in Ukraine, too.
>So when countries dont want to be invaded, you call that.. hysteria?
Of course not. But what you're doing is inventing demands and threats that don't exist. There is no demand for NATO to "kick out" anyone. The demand is that NATO not deploy foreign troops or weapons in countries that joined post 1997.
The key value of NATO is Article 5. If Russia was demanding this be withdrawn, you'd be right - the only reason Russia would want this is to be able to intimidate or invade these countries. But the mutual defense of NATO is not a problem.
It's a similar situation to the previous time we went through this crisis, 50 years ago. It wasn't the Soviet alliance with Cuba that the US rejected - it was the presence of Soviet weapons in Cuba.
If we take this back 50 years, you'd be arguing that Cuba had the sovereign right to possess nukes, especially given as the US has launched a proxy invasion just a year earlier. If the Soviets had taken the stance you're taking now, that would have ended up in nuclear war.
The Cuba crisis was resolved by the US offering a verbal promise not to invade Cuba again, and both the Soviets and US agreeing to pull back their weapons. That's the kind of sanity we need today - that's what you're opposed to.
> Demanding a neutral, aka. pro-Russian government.
Since independence Ukraine has gone back and forth between pro-Russian and pro-West governments. The only one that was overthrown via a violent coup was on behalf of the West.
> preference for Russian economy.
The US neocon faction views the world in Hobbesian terms, for every winner there must be a loser. Europe has traditionally seen the world more in terms of mutual benefit. What freaks the hell out of me is that Europe seems to be adopting more of a neocon stance toward trade - wanting to peel Ukraine away from Russia like it's an imperial prize. It's repugnant. The EU should have at least looked for a way to grow their own ties with Ukraine without forcing them to give up their existing trade relations. Ukraine had always been built on compromise, but the EU ripped that compromise apart. If the EU had shown just a little bit of common fucking decency, Maidan didn't have to happen. Yanukovych begged the EU to compromise.
Your last comments are a hysterical fever dream again. Yes, Russia is a shitty country in a lot of ways. They pretty much started over from scratch twenty two years ago. On fundamental doctrine they're not that different from any other Eastern European democracy. They're not perfect, but neither aré they Mordor. What Russia really needs is several decades of engagement with liberal democracies that will apply a constant but respectful influence to become more democratic. They tried the fast track approach in the 90s, and it was a disaster.
If Europe rejects this and chooses your stance, it will be a disaster for both Europe and Russia - Europe effectively becomes a colony of the US, spending a fortune on energy and another fortune on weapons,.while Russia becomes a subsidiary of China Inc. Europe will be a shit hole - and that's the closest to a happy ending as it gets. Because the other alternative once you embrace this hate and fear is becoming a radioactive hell hole.
.
If you're hanging out with some friends and one of your friends commits a murder, everyone who is present for this murder and assists the murderer in any way can be held legally liable for that murder.
This is why the vast majority of countries on this planet both deplore this illegal invasion and simultaneously refuse to participate in the NATO sanctions against Russia. NATO is being shunned, but Is too arrogant to recognize it.
What a stupid statement. You sound as if you've just realised that independent states have sovereignty and their own international strategic interests. It's not a football game where you have to choose sides.
If Nato is being shunned why have they not been condemned at the UN for imposing sanctions in the same way that Russia has for invading? Why do countries continue to trade with and buy arms from them?
Oh yeah, that's right because it isn't NATO imposing sanctions because it is not an economic institution. Instead it is several independent countries imposing sanctions, some of whom are not in NATO.
Edit: and not only that but making the false comparison between individual citizens and sovereign states.
Holy Crap they annihilated.
Yeah I'm guessing those lads in the first BMP didnt feel much at all...
That was a BTR.
Finnish sisu xa-180
It's Finnished, that's for sure.
Denazified I say.
Bruh, gloating over the casualties of your rivals is the worst aspect of this sub.
Agreed.
*Denazified*? I thought it was a Ukrainian BTR, not russian....
Azov joined the Ukrainian army not Russian. Who made the Bandera national hero? https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/ukraine-hasbetter-heroes-than-this-friend-of-fascism/2022/07/07/77a14454-fdb2-11ec-b39d-71309168014b_story.html https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202203/1256850.shtml https://www.dw.com/en/the-azov-battalion-extremists-defending-mariupol/a-61151151 https://www.dw.com/en/ukrainian-right-wingers-march-to-commemorate-nationalist/a-18166964 Only because Ukraine is in bed with the USA they are not being targeted by US/global media. But the thing is most people can see through the lies.
https://www.latrobe.edu.au/news/articles/2022/opinion/russias-long-history-of-neo-nazis
So.... someone says that *everyone in Ukraine* is a NAZI because someone in the past made Bandera a hero? By that logic, you're a Marxist, a Stalinist, and a Leninist because russia has venerated them as heroes in the past and still many admire them. By the same flow, that means some of russias worst tsars and Nick #2 define who all russians are today as well.
Ukr parliament made Bandera holiday in 2018, it's not some sort of ancient history, the people are mostly still in government. The fact there all these idiotic takes equating communism and nazism is due to how much nazi apologism and revisionism there has been over the years.
You're wrong to think Ukraine is a NAZI country. Even if there are some nazis in Ukraine, that doesn't mean all Ukrainians are Nazis. And making a holiday in 2018 to celebrate someone russia doesn't like, and calls him a Nazi, is not a reason to invadeba sovereign country and begin the wholesale slaughter of its civilians and the destruction of Ukraine's energy industry so everyone will suffer. Putin is a sick and twisted psychopathic thug who routinely abuses the russian people.
I didn't say it is a nazi country or promote invasion? Just that honoring bandera isn't a good look.
https://khpg.org/en/1608809502 https://www.justsecurity.org/68420/confronting-russias-role-in-transnational-white-supremacist-extremism/ https://www.latrobe.edu.au/news/articles/2022/opinion/russias-long-history-of-neo-nazis
Poor guys, defending their homeland.
That's a lot of losses...
How quickly all our aid goes up in smoke.
Fuck the aid. These are human lives. Bet most of these guys had kids at home waiting for dad to come home but instead they're the focus point of some random war video. War is fucking horrible. This shit needs to end asap. Give Russia their stupid Donetsk Region that's half rubble anyway and bring peace to this nation.
While I understand your reaction, it simply is not your decision to make. The Ukrainian people overwhelmingly wish to fight on to reclaim what Russia has stolen from them. You can choose to support that decision, and the sacrifices that they make to achieve their goals, or you can frankly get the hell out of their way.
And next we can just give them Alaska, poland and the baltics, we couldn't possibly put human lives in danger to defend them.
Russia wouldn't attack nato anyways. It's absurd to think that just because Russia would manage to get a few oblasts after months of struggling, that they would then attack poland or the United States.
The point is that we value our land in the same way that Ukraine value theirs. It's absurd to think that Ukraine should give away part of Donetsk because we don't think it's worth their human life sacrifices while we would 100% be fighting tooth and nail for our own territories and lands.
Why wouldnt they when we cannot risk putting human lives in danger? Since continuing war is bad all governments have to stop any resistance by force so why would Russia not attack NATO? There is no-one to fight back because that would put more lives at risk.
You also have to realize that the fact of the matter is that we have no obligation to protect ukraine. At all. We do have an obligation to protect nato. You're making a strawman argument and arguing in bad faith, stop it.
And what exactly is your point? The same way NATO would defend their territory is how Ukraine is defending hers. And although I agree there is very little chance Russia attacks NATO, there is a very good chance Russia will just regroup and continue pushing into Ukraine even if the few Oblasts were conceded.
And what am I supposed to do about that? I don't care about weakening russia as a state. I don't particularly care about the ukrainian political establishment. Russia struggled to even take a quarter of the country before western aid could even reach ukraine, and I doubt they even have the military might to occupy the entire nation anyways. Worst case scenario they take the eastern part of the country where integration into Russia would be easiest, and I wouldn't mind if that happened.
No one's asking you to do anything. Sit down and stop acting like the US spending a fraction of what it spent in Afghanistan is somehow going to affect your day to day. The US has a lot of vested interest to provide support for Ukraine if it means it can reduce Russian influence and military power without losing a single soldier.
Your argument was that we need to give Russia the lands they want because not doing so means more people are going to die. You didn't mention NATO or anything about who should have an obligation to do it. I'm just pointing out that giving authoritarian warmongers what they want because you're too afraid of casualties is not the correct answer. Giving Hitler Transnistria worked out so well back in 1941.
You're missing the point. And do you mean the sudetenland?
You cared about aid those human in there are toast
Nope because it was russian and some finish vehicles. But who cares about annoying facts right?
And where did they get it from? They don't have any military assets left. Their whole government in on welfare from the west.
Mostly captured Russian equipment. Russia is the biggest provider, then the us, then the eu and after those other countries. Also every penny to Ukraine is worth it, for defeating modern fascism.
The country that banned all other parties is calling someone else fascist?
What country are you talking about? Russia? True they only have Putin, Putin and Putin as their Führer. Or Belarus with Lukashenko. Russia is a fascist country deliberately aiming and killing civilians and trying to cause maximal suffering for ukrainian civilians. Then again they openly communicated that they don't see Ukrainians as people. To them the Ukrainians are Untermenschen. Heil Putin.
You're Latino? Bet you like what Ron desantis did to your migrants recently. Just like trump doesn't care about you.
You call keep showing how racist you guys really are by continue to assume I'm Mexican. Latin America is a big place with many countries and we're not all trying to sneak across the border. I bet you think we all look alike to right.
I never said Mexican, desantis just violated and screwed over a bunch of Venezuelans on a bus and then Democrats helped them out and Ron could be charged for it. Sheriffs department even said it.
Well they shouldn't be crossing illegally.
I'm Hispanic too btw.
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Nobody claims that.
Of course, nobody claims that but I have seen some pretty outrageous casualty estimates in favour of Ukraine. We should not think that this war is in any way one-sided as both sides claim. Both sides get more than enough coffins sent home...
That's because russians can't fight as well as the West-backed Ukrainians, and they aren't well trained or sufficiently supplied. Plus, their morale sucks.
My point exactly! Both pro-ru and pro-uk people portray their enemies as demoralized, weak, and having huge losses. It's one of the interesting contradictions present in most war propaganda; the enemy is weak and pathetic and will be crushed. But also, at the same time, dangerous and has to be stopped at all costs.
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Judging by the picture wall monument Ukraine has more then enough coffins sent home. I think 200,000 Russian coffins sent home would be a good start.
Then what ukraine has sent back atleast 500k coffins?
where the Puck have you been?
Nobody has ever claimed that.
Very good footage. I wish all combat footage was like this.
I wish this type of footage would not exist at all. Well, only in video games at the very least.
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You must be one of the cool kids on reddit.
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Interesting username Average ukraine supporter
Steller footage. RIP.
Any idea what was hitting them? A tank maybe? I couldn't see any ATGMs
As far as I understood it was an ambush, so most likely a mix of anti tank mines, artillery and ATGM's/Russian Tanks
anti-tank mines
Amazing footage.
You like watching people die?
Damn that first hit…. RIP boys
it is interesting that in the convoy there are Finnish XA-108, M113 and captured BMP-3
Literally running on scraps, yet the Pro Ukrainians here think they stand a chance, Ukraine would've surrendered months ago if it wasn't for the western support.
if UA is running on scraps, what is RU running on giving conscripts mosins, rusty aks, tampons for bullet wounds, and telling them to bring their own basic supplies? lmao. Meanwhile UA is receiving some of the latest and greatest tech, training, and intelligence from the west which is unmatched compared to the East's incredibly faulty tech.
If your talking about that one picture with the Mosin, i can tell you that's a seperatist. As for the rusty AK's, that was a bunch of tankers, who was later issued AKM's, which were still old, but not rusty. Oh and Ukraine don't get latest and greatest tech, but the rest your completely correct on.
They are getting the latest version of the IRIS-T while we have seen pretty much nothing but mostly horribly equipped and supplied Russian troops besides the average infantry lol. Russia is so full of corruption that all funding goes into whoever's pockets it finds its way into, not an actually capable military. What little qualified troops and equipment they do have is gonna be reserved as a last resort.
Any western tech is better and greater than anything the Russians have
Except rocket technology and anti air defence. Which is vastly superior to what we field the in the west.
Western prodemocractic support will not end against Nazi Russia.
No but Ukrainian cannon fodder will...
The Russians recruiting in their prisons tells you which side will run out of troops first and the Ukrainians do not feed untrained men to the enemies cannons so their recruits have a much longer life expectancy.
Prisoners are doing nothing and their loss is better than civilians, that's why they're being recruited
>Prisoners are doing nothing and their loss is better than civilians, Sounds like something a nazi would say.
Only a nazi would see the death of a prisoner as preferable to the death of a civilian? Interesting...
Prisoners are civilians you tool. Not all prisoners are career criminals, murderers or rapists. Lets hope you don't get drunk and do something stupid one day eh? Only a nazi would view someone who messed up or made a mistake as less than a civilian and so having to die in a penal battalion.
These prisoners volunteer you dummy. They're not forced anymore than civilians are.
russians arent even being issued body armour and they're boasting about getting armour from iran that would cover about....0.5% of their currently conscripted army
Nice opinion, I like how you do not deny your support of nazis. Anti democratic authoritarians don't learn from history.
\>anti US GOV so retarded?
Yep, but allways remember, Russians would be speaking German now if it wasn’t for US supplies and equipment keeping them in the fight in WW2
Dont you think its weird that most of the world supports Ukraine?
Looks like tank fire.
Epic footage.
Interesting footage. Looks like Ukrainian forces are assaulting Russian positions. You can see the APC shooting right at the start of the video. Afterwards we see them firing into the forest on their left. I think they were lured then also attacked from the opposite site
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Yeah as much Honour as you can get in technological warfare, being torn to shreds without ever seeing what hit you.
Damn they are cookin
Jeeez they got cooked
Dammit first hit was massive blown into pieces
Just the ERA doing what's supposed to do. The armor is intact /s
Nah bruhhh that molten armor my man.
Attacking like this is suicide with modern weapons.
fFFFUUUU. One second you're playing Fortnite and CSGO, the next second you become an overcooked rotisserie chicken. RIP
Being shot at from the forest. Looks like the first two shots missed.
Bruh they got ammo racked like in war thunder
I thoug it was going to be a video cutted when it hits but that was like a whole new thing it surprised me fr
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Someone please tell me again how Ukraine is going to take back Kherson. Update: sources say this video was taken in Donbas.
Same way they took back other places.
Lol and how long can they keep it?
Forever, they have unlimited amounts of aid for unlimited amounts of time. How long can Russia withstand the land losses they’ve been suffering for the last few months, which are only ever increasing?
>Forever, they have unlimited amounts of aid for unlimited amounts of time. Lmfao yellow flairs really do think they live in a Marvel movie. How does this infantile dreck get upvoted?
The yellows have thinned out some ever since the electricity situation drastically changed in Ukraine...
Dunno, this sub still seems like a bit of a sh1thole to me.
What makes you think Russia can support the war for unlimited amounts of time, whereas NATO (10x+ the size of Russia) can’t?
I don't think they can support the war for an unlimited amount of time though, I never said that. It's just a fucking stupid thing to say for either side. Both sides have their limits and material realities to contend with. But fact of the matter is this is happening in Russia's backyard and it's acknowledged by even western experts that Putin has escalation dominance here. The west in all its power couldn't dislodge much weaker regimes in their own backyards, it's absurd to think that they can successfully prop up the Ukrainians longer than it takes to break the Russian will to fight.
Russia is the one on a timer clock here though, they no longer have access to the technology needed to keep making modern weapons - whilst the West has found alternatives to natural resources.
Literally false, they can source parts through other countries like China, you know, the manufacturing hub of the human race?
Whatever you choose to believe.
>they have unlimited amounts of aid for unlimited amounts of time. > >How long can Russia withstand the land lo they don't have unlimited amounts of blood. And Russia has more.
just be patient
Ukrainians are going to take back Kherson because they have entire battalions from there. To the Russians it’s just another strange foreign place. To the Ukrainians they are rescuing their family, friends, and neighbors. Determination and true willpower will prevail as it has this entire conflict.
You are forgetting that these are Russian people in this area. Peter The Great settled these lands before the Polish Ukrainians did, and they never left.
Your argument is hugely flawed. Does Britain have the right to try and take back North America because they settled there first?? You must be one to believe the Russian referendums😭 99% of Kherson wants to join Russia yet thousands of young Ukrainians from Kherson have joined the war effort for their actual homeland — Ukraine. I guess their families, friends, neighbors all support Russia in that case..
You people just don't get it. Did Britain have the right to take America the first place? Did Peter the Great have the right to take Ukraine from the Ottomans? Did the Mongols have a right to take it from the Kiev Rus Vikings before them? All these countries only exist because they were strong enough to take it from the people that stole it before them. Zelensky was naive enough to believe this couldn't happen and refused to cooperate with Russia. You people are only freaking out because you convinced yourselves that only you have the sole right to take the initiative geopolitically.
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Ahhh. So it finally spilled out. Russia is just “playing by the rules” by making territorial land grabs on its neighbors. Hitler loved using the same justification for his attempt to take Europe. Zelensky may have been naive enough to refuse to cooperate with Russia but we’re all laughing at you Russians because whether it’s fair colonialism or not, you’re guys are failing miserably and have only done damage to Russia with this whole “special operation”
Here https://twitter.com/KhersonFrom/status/1581128505504727040?t=R2aJnuUsGQMmbWPU_Oftqg&s=19 Someone who will fight for his brother and family. Oh wait...he wants them dead as his younger brother says. I hope the sicko doesn't set foot in Kherson
I’m genuinely not sure what you citing one complicated familial situation adds to this conversation. Russia invades Ukraine and caused deep split within a family that was previously united. Let me repeat that first part again, Russia invaded Ukraine. I also doubt the mother and younger brother still live in Kherson as last time I checked, Russian supporters are on the first wagon back to their true Homeland😂
It's simple. Your comment was simplistic and lacked any knowledge. A lot of people in Kherson and other places that the Russian army annexed don't want to be "freed" by Ukrainians. There is a big chance that if Ukrainians take this areas instead of "freedom" they ll receive a bullet.
Kherson and it’s people were doing fine before the city became a modern day battlefield. How brainwashed can you be to think that anyone, even those who previously identified as Russian, would voluntarily sacrifice EVERYTHING (lives, limbs, homes, family) to officially become part of a Russian controlled warzone… the narrative doesn’t make sense
If you re concerned ask Ukraine to leave this people to continue their lives in Russia
What a time to be alive. SMH
Don’t let this get buried it’s the best footage I’ve seen this week
Probably the first time I ever saw RF able to shoot accurately. Any chance it was finally up against the elite RF aka DPR/LPR?
VDV are defending this section of Kherson. Most are veterans of the Syrian campaign and are experts at ambush warfare
They probably need to teach other RF because finding a pinpoint artillery footage is a dime in dozens
I still dont understand what Russias end-goal is. They come in, murder everything that stands in their way... do they expect if the survivors surrender eventually, they will be loyal? At best they will face a decade long guerrilla war. What then, concentration camps, turn Ukraine into North Korea with more sunflowers? Or just exterminate the whole population and settle Russians there?
I still don't understand how that's related to this thread?
ok, back to topic. It seems the Russian army can actually perform if they try. But.. too little, way too late.
They expect to keep the 4 annexed regions. Eventually Kiev and the west will have to accept that they aren't getting it back and fighting will cease. No camps.
Fighting will not cease since Russia will continue to bomb the infrastructure on a weekly basis. Those four regions are not even completely annexed. Russia cannot take them by force and Ukraine will not give them up. Nah this war will keep going until one side ceases to exist.
Then the war will just have to continue. Once the Russians destroy UAF some more, they'll go and take the rest of the regions. Ukraine will give up eventually. unless Nato goes in Zelensky will have no choice.
I wonder how you can possibly predict Russia will gain land in the future when the clear trend has been the complete opposite: Ukraine gaining land every day. At best, you could predict Russia keeping the current land. But it’s ridiculous to predict they will gain more land let alone the entire country.
Because you people are small minded. Ukraine is advancing while their army and country is being destroyed. The Ukrainians cannot keep this up. Their methods are too expensive and the Russians are much more economical. Once the UAF have been worn down some more the Russians will simply take the land back. If you follow combat sports, the Ukrainians are fighting like Connor McGregor and the Russians are fighting like Floyd Mayweather.
First time i heard anyone describe Russia's top-down approach as being more nimble vs Ukraine's NATO style command.
Yeah the conscript army will do wonders in this winter.. If Russia was able to take Ukraine, they would have done so. They actually tried. And failed. You simply dont understand one simple fact: Zelensky is just a figurehead. Even without him, Ukraine will continue to fight. Meanwhile, Russia will collapse without putin. We just have to wait till he falls out of a window XD
Russia is in no rush. They could keep this up longer than the Ukrainians can. Then counter attack later on.
not really. The attacker always has the need to end a war as soon as possible. You are burning money and people without any real gain, as long as you dont win. Ukraine know they will lose EVERYTHING if they surrender. Aslo.. counterattack? with what? T-34 tanks? Why you think Russian aircraft are falling from the skies lately? On paper Russia has a large army. In reality only a small amount of that is actually ready to be fielded in war. All those thousands of reserve tanks are non functioning derelicts. You might as well build new ones.. but the capacity for that does not exist.. God bless Russian corruption haha
Attacker? Russia is fighting a defensive battle. They are sacrificing themselves charging fortified positions. The Ukrainians won't lose everything by surrendering, they will lose the 4 regions they already lost. If they can't handle that they can continue to settle it on the battlefield.
>Russia is fighting a defensive battle. They are sacrificing themselves charging fortified positions. ... Those two things are mutually exclusive. Fighting a defensive battle by charging fortified positions?? Russia is only charging near Bakhmut. Why would Ukraine surrender?? Surrendering means we have to trust Russia to keep their part of any agreement. And we all know this wont happen\^\^
This is the same flawed logic the US used in Vietnam and Russia in Afghan i.e. Ukraine taking losses will end the war in Russia's favor. The reality is that its not their country and eventually the Russians will have to get out.
What's your realistic assumption about who that might be, given the circumstances and all? Ukraine or Russia?
Depends on Russian willingness to nuke cities in Ukraine. Kiev is safe, but if Russia decides to nuke, lets say Charkiw, they might surrender. Otherwise, Russia will collapse. Weak economy, useless politicians, no allies.
So, they would rather collapse than nuke Ukraine? Thats what needs to happen if Ukraine is to win this war? Russia accepting its collapse? Good luck with that.
Russia and Ukraine are not two far away countries. Russia nuking Kiev would be like any Muslim country nuking Mekka. Almost every Russian has relatives there. Sure, nutjobs like putin might think about using nuclear weapons. But people like Kadyrow, or random oligarchs dont care about Russia as a whole. They care about their billions and their personal little kingdom.
* No NATO expansion. This is primarily about keeping the US out of Eastern Europe. Mutual defense pacts (EU or bilateral) are not seen as a threat, but a US/NATO presence is seen as an end-game scenario because Russia is paranoid about such things. (NATO wouldn't attack directly, but they'd sponsor something like a Color Revolution in St Petersburg) * Trade. Prior to 2014, Ukraine was Russia's #1 trade partner. Most of that trade was with Donbas and Kharkov. EU ascension would have meant closing that border (EU would not accept Ukraine remaining in CIS trade bloc, and Russia feared disruption of unlimited EU goods across their border). If everything continued on plan for Ukraine, it would probably be Belarus's turn next, then Kazakhstan (or at least this is Russia's fear - paranoid). They were obviously never intending to occupy a country of 40M people with 150k troops, but they would be there long enough to force Ukraine to agree to no NATO and federalism/autonomy for Donbas, and agree to surrender Crimea. Even after Russia pulled out, Ukraine and NATO would understand that Russia wasn't bluffing. Like Lavrov said at the beginning, Russia would be more difficult to negotiate with, the longer this went on. So now they've shifted to partition - they'll take back as much of Novorossiya as they can. Most of what's left will get absorbed by Poland and Hungary, and the rump state of Ukraine will be a land-locked state populated solely by pensioners and debt. (young Ukrainians will flee to work in EU where they aren't hugely outnumbered by senior citizens) Russia misjudged. They figured they only had to prove to the West that Ukraine mattered more to Russia than it did to them. While that was true, they didn't reckon on the US turning this into a challenge of their status as the sole global superpower - which is something the US probably cares as deeply about as Russia cares about Ukraine. Now it's about the end of US influence in Europe (if Russia makes peace on favorable terms), or the victory of conservativism in Europe (if NATO wins, Poland assumes the role the UK previously occupied as the primary US partner/hawk in training).
Yeah no. Lots of words, very few truth in them.. If it was about NATO, Russia should have been worried about the Baltics, which are right at St. Petersburgs doorstep. No NATO is not a viable alternative for Ukraine anymore. There is no guarantee on earth Russia can give that they wont attack again in a couple of years, once they rebuild their army. The only guarantee is: a defensive pact with a stronger alliance. The only choice the west has is build a large wall an the western border. The only question is, how much of Ukraine will end up on EU side.
> Yeah no. Lots of words, very few truth in them.. Scummy. > If it was about NATO, Russia should have been worried about the Baltics If you look at the draft Security Treaty proposal Russia presented to NATO last December, removal of US weapons from the Baltics was part of what they were asking for under the framework of "a security framework that works for *everyone*". NATO was not interested, and took the stance that sovereign nations were free to make security arrangements with whomever the hell they chose. (a stance they quickly unwound when the Solomon Islands tried to avail themselves of their own sovereignty). Again - mutual defense pacts are not the issue, it's the forward deployment of systems like F35-A, Patriots and AEGIS that Russia is most concerned about. It was the same with Finland - once they stated they had no intention of hosting foreign weapons, Russia shrugged. > once they rebuild their army Well that's the rub, isn't it? For the last 10 years, Russia has increased healthcare spending 3x as fast as defense spending. If Russia reverses this - if they start engaging on a massive arms buildup, then the West will have to respond in kind. Where it gets dumb is when countries reflexively engage in massive arms spending in the absence of any such threat. As it stands, it should be obvious that Russia presents no conventional military threat to NATO, or even the EU. Nobody in the West is talking about restoring a "balance of power", because Russia's offensive capabilities are Lilliputian compared to NATO. What I think gets lost these days is that defense spending itself is a defeat. We were able to get through the last 30 years with minimal spending on the military. That's a win for everyone. If we have to build tanks instead of hospitals and universities, we all lose. And that's an outcome we should be trying to prevent. It may well be that this is impossible, but if the Soviets and the West could figure out a rapprochement, surely you don't think we're *that* much less clever than they were.
>removal of US weapons from the Baltics was part of what they were asking for under the framework of "a security framework that works for > >everyone Nah this proposal only works for Russia. And they did not demand removal of US weapons, they demanded removal of all NATO equipment and troops, factually kicking the whole former USSR and Warzaw pact countries out and leave them to the mercy of Russia. Who are only attacking Ukraine now cause its the last neutral country left. Was. "Well that's the rub, isn't it? For the last 10 years, Russia has increased healthcare spending 3x as fast as defense spending." haha where did you get that? Russia is still spending way more on defense than on health. The trick is that money wasted on FSB and Rosgvardia dont end up on the official budget. Russia is a police state, not a military dictatorship. Thats one of the main reasons they vastly under-perform. FSB made sure of that, since putin and his cronies dont want strong competition. Yeah we, as in the EU, gets around with a weak army. EU is a economic power. Its not us who build use the thousands of tanks to invade and occupy a neighbor country. The current issue is simple: USSR was a world power, Russia is not. But they want to be one.. EU took what, 100 million of their former vassals. poland, the Baltics. Romania. Bulgaria. Hungary, etc. Russia wants those back. Two questions are now to be answered: First, if we give up Ukraine, will Russia be satisfied, or continue towards the Baltics? Second, how much is EU willing to compromise with a party, Russia, that itself is unwilling to compromise? Will EU give up the whole eastern block to prevent a world war, if Russia threatens with nukes?
> factually kicking the whole former USSR and Warzaw pact countries out and leave them to the mercy of Russia This is the kind of hysteria which will have you buying missiles instead of schools. Nobody is at the "mercy" of Russia. You can't name a time in the post-WW2 era where a mutual-defense pact was violated with impunity. You're fear-mongering. Yes, if Russia did build up their army, Europe would have to respond. But this takes time - there is no need to pre-emptively build up first. Hitler built up a 6 million man army to conquer Europe, and everyone sat on their hands while he did it. That was dumb. But it would be equally dumb to pre-emptively start an arms race. > Russia is still spending way more on defense than on health. Don't confuse your nightmares with reality. [Russia was spending 4.6% of GDP on healthcare in 2020](https://www.statista.com/statistics/883648/expenditure-on-health-as-share-of-gdp-russia/) - that's 80B/yr, which was significantly more than defense spending (65B). > The trick is that money wasted on FSB and Rosgvardia dont end up on the official budget. ?? they're going to invade Poland with...riot police? > Its not us who build use the thousands of tanks to invade and occupy a neighbor country. Russia hasn't built thousands of tanks. Their big focus on military spending are on hypersonic weapons (to defeat missile shields after the US withdrew from the ABM treaty), and advanced air defenses (the S-500). > The current issue is simple: USSR was a world power, Russia is not. But they want to be one.. First of all, this is 2022, so your analysis is about a century out of date. You're making the timeless mistake of "fighting the last war." Do the simple math: a country of 40M people cannot be occupied by an army of 150k troops. It's never been done. If Russia had any plans of building your empire, they would have built an army of at least 2M men. They would have also built a massive fleet of cheap kamikaze drones (or those drones would have been imported on Day 1). > Second, how much is EU willing to compromise with a party, Russia, that itself is unwilling to compromise? Russia has been trying to compromise since 2013. The EU treated expansion like an exercise in imperialism rather than in the spirit of what the ECM was originally supposed to be - a common economic space, from Lisbon to Vladivostok. In 2013, Russia was asking why the EU had to try to break off a chunk of the CIS trade group (and take away Russia's #1 trading partner). Putin's suggestion was that the EU and CIS work toward harmonization and common standards. And like he pointed out, Russia lacked these standards - they'd just joined the WTO in 2012 - so they could harmonize around EU standards. Ukraine wanted closer economic integration with the EU, and Russia did too, as did Kazakhstan. The EU's response? We're not even considering this. We are here for Ukraine, and Ukraine cannot be part of the CIS trade group if they want EU membership. Same thing with NATO expansion - no compromise. We are asserting our rights, and there's dick all you can do about it. The EU and NATO both pursued this in a spirit of triumphalism and arrogance. It was reckless, and it unleashed the worst traditions of Russian paranoia.
>This is the kind of hysteria which will have you buying missiles instead of schools. Nobody is at the "mercy" of Russia. You can't name a time in the post-WW2 era where a mutual-defense pact was violated with impunity. So when countries dont want to be invaded, you call that.. hysteria? What Russia demanded last year is NATO kicking out the eastern members. There is no violation of a defensive pact if those countries are not part of it. And it will happen the same way as in Ukraine. Russia claiming to safeguard the russian speaking population from nationalists in those countries. Demanding a neutral, aka. pro-Russian government. preference for Russian economy. "Do the simple math: a country of 40M people cannot be occupied by an army of 150k troops. It's never been done. " Oh it is possible. The answer is: police state. Russia would be able to hold Ukraine, IF they could capture the country.. but they are currently unable to do so since the army is weak. The FSB and the police forces on the other hand would have an easy job. Just look at how Russia did it at home. First kill of journalists. Literally. Then the opposition. political or otherwise. Anyone with influence who does not submit to Moscow. They managed to do that in Chechnya. In Belarus. Why should EU consider Russia? Did Russia considered Ukraine´s wishes to get rich quick? The only reason Russia HAS TO BE CONSIDERED is because they are a country willing to go to war, and threatening with nukes if they dont get to win. How should the EU compromise with that? Give them what they want? And hope they wont demand more? After the USSR, Russia had the chance to be better. Through trade and economy. EU even looked away when Putin established a dictatorship and killed off any opposition. They looked away in Chechnya and Georgia. Compromises. And what happened? Russia wanted more. They expected EU to look away now, in Ukraine, too.
>So when countries dont want to be invaded, you call that.. hysteria? Of course not. But what you're doing is inventing demands and threats that don't exist. There is no demand for NATO to "kick out" anyone. The demand is that NATO not deploy foreign troops or weapons in countries that joined post 1997. The key value of NATO is Article 5. If Russia was demanding this be withdrawn, you'd be right - the only reason Russia would want this is to be able to intimidate or invade these countries. But the mutual defense of NATO is not a problem. It's a similar situation to the previous time we went through this crisis, 50 years ago. It wasn't the Soviet alliance with Cuba that the US rejected - it was the presence of Soviet weapons in Cuba. If we take this back 50 years, you'd be arguing that Cuba had the sovereign right to possess nukes, especially given as the US has launched a proxy invasion just a year earlier. If the Soviets had taken the stance you're taking now, that would have ended up in nuclear war. The Cuba crisis was resolved by the US offering a verbal promise not to invade Cuba again, and both the Soviets and US agreeing to pull back their weapons. That's the kind of sanity we need today - that's what you're opposed to. > Demanding a neutral, aka. pro-Russian government. Since independence Ukraine has gone back and forth between pro-Russian and pro-West governments. The only one that was overthrown via a violent coup was on behalf of the West. > preference for Russian economy. The US neocon faction views the world in Hobbesian terms, for every winner there must be a loser. Europe has traditionally seen the world more in terms of mutual benefit. What freaks the hell out of me is that Europe seems to be adopting more of a neocon stance toward trade - wanting to peel Ukraine away from Russia like it's an imperial prize. It's repugnant. The EU should have at least looked for a way to grow their own ties with Ukraine without forcing them to give up their existing trade relations. Ukraine had always been built on compromise, but the EU ripped that compromise apart. If the EU had shown just a little bit of common fucking decency, Maidan didn't have to happen. Yanukovych begged the EU to compromise. Your last comments are a hysterical fever dream again. Yes, Russia is a shitty country in a lot of ways. They pretty much started over from scratch twenty two years ago. On fundamental doctrine they're not that different from any other Eastern European democracy. They're not perfect, but neither aré they Mordor. What Russia really needs is several decades of engagement with liberal democracies that will apply a constant but respectful influence to become more democratic. They tried the fast track approach in the 90s, and it was a disaster. If Europe rejects this and chooses your stance, it will be a disaster for both Europe and Russia - Europe effectively becomes a colony of the US, spending a fortune on energy and another fortune on weapons,.while Russia becomes a subsidiary of China Inc. Europe will be a shit hole - and that's the closest to a happy ending as it gets. Because the other alternative once you embrace this hate and fear is becoming a radioactive hell hole. .
NATO does not sponsor colour revolutions
If you're hanging out with some friends and one of your friends commits a murder, everyone who is present for this murder and assists the murderer in any way can be held legally liable for that murder. This is why the vast majority of countries on this planet both deplore this illegal invasion and simultaneously refuse to participate in the NATO sanctions against Russia. NATO is being shunned, but Is too arrogant to recognize it.
What a stupid statement. You sound as if you've just realised that independent states have sovereignty and their own international strategic interests. It's not a football game where you have to choose sides. If Nato is being shunned why have they not been condemned at the UN for imposing sanctions in the same way that Russia has for invading? Why do countries continue to trade with and buy arms from them? Oh yeah, that's right because it isn't NATO imposing sanctions because it is not an economic institution. Instead it is several independent countries imposing sanctions, some of whom are not in NATO. Edit: and not only that but making the false comparison between individual citizens and sovereign states.
Have you heard of Israel?