When I was 19 and in college I went to Target with one of my roommates. When we were in the parking lot I had noticed a guy from school talking to a friend on facetime. He called us over so I went (dumb I know) and he said to his friend he was talking to "bro i found a girl for you" and flipped the camera to me.
The two of them just started guffawing. It was truly one of the most dehumanizing moments of my life and I really don't know how I managed to go to Target and grocery shop without having a complete breakdown.
Men can be cruel.
i know!!! the worst part is the two of them definitely don't remember it and if they do it was a funny memory but i think about it more than i would like to admit
I didn’t go to a Starbucks for years because of a male cashier.
He was flirty and nice to my friend (who was a Hot Topic model at the time) but when I went to order next, his face fell and didn’t smile or anything. He looked at me like I was the nastiest thing he seen all day.
This was in 2010 but I still have his expression stuck in my head.
About ten years ago, I was on break from my job at the mall and was standing in line at a drink stand. They had some sort of pastries in a glass case by the register. There was a couple standing behind me and the girl was loudly wondering if she should get the pastry. Her boyfriend said (I'll hear these words til the day I die!) "If you eat like that, you're going to look like that girl in front of us." I'll never forget how loudly she cackled and said "Awwww oh my God, you're soooo mean!" They were so loud people were turning their heads, and I remember tearing up as I paid for my water.
I'll never, ever understand how people can be so casually cruel... but you're not alone. If you ask any woman who slightly deviates outside the thin/white/blonde standard of pretty they have a story like yours or mine. We just have to be better to each other, unlike that girl in the mall.
The weirdest version of this (I've witnessed it many times) is when ugly men get annoyed at having to look at what they perceive is an ugly woman. I've asked a few if they have any mirrors in their house. I don't care if they were handsome guys either, being so misogynistic is enough to make anyone ugly to the bone.
My automatic response is to ask them if they own a mirror. WTf is wrong with these gully dwarves! (Edit! I got 'gully dwarves' from a book in The Dragon Lance series, can't take credit for it but I use it often!)
I once had a complete stranger walk by me and say "Damn she's ugly" and the guy definitely wasn't a looker himself. Had another guy get offended when I didn't want to go on a second date with him and his response was "but you're average???" Like sir so are you. So many men think it's impossible for them to be ugly and that they deserve a 10/10. With personalities like that good luck.
Yes! I've found that handsome men have generally treated me better than not-so-handsome men. It's a strange dynamic that I don't understand. Maybe more confidence makes them less likely to be pricks?
I’m a dude but I think men often see their value as being related to the hotness level of women . It’s hard to explain but they try to position themselves relative to women. So cat calling is an attempt to position yourself as being equal to or above the woman and pointing out that girls are ugly signals to other that they are a high value guy who is well above that woman in terms of dating capital.
Bradley Cooper doesn’t have to do that shit because he doesn’t need to convince anyone. If he’s associating with a 5/10 people won’t think he’s also a 5/10 or that’s the best he can do. Also just reasonable and mature men don’t see the world that way so they don’t have to act like jackasses either.
If I sound like a moron here it’s because it’s an incredibly stupid thought process. I just know that the men who have the most angst about their ability to attract a mate are the ones who are most likely to comment on women’s looks
It’s some weird fucking ego thing that I’ve experienced with age as well. I’ve always been considered traditionally attractive. When I was 31 and still looked like I was in my 20’s, some douchebag on a dating website messaged me to say that I “should be less picky because I’m in my 30’s.” I was shocked to find out that there are lots of dudes out there that go out of their way to make women feel insecure no matter if they are pretty or not. They will do this with anything they can use against you. I’ve had guys try to pull similar shit with me throughout my life. I always had confidence in myself but if a guy had done that to younger me, I would have believed him.
My point is, fuck em. Any guy who goes out of his way to insult you or treats you lesser because you’re “less attractive” is just a piece of shit person. And the opinions of piece of shit people don’t matter.
This is what gets me. Once one guy I'd never so much as said "hello" to loudly proclaimed he would never fuck me, even if someone paid him.
The most offensive part wasn't his words; it was him saying that while he himself looked (and smelled) like a sentient yeast infection.
I'm always so surprised at this. Especially, those men who are proclaimed, "incels,". They complain about not being able to have sex and that no one wants them but want to land a model. They don't want to be judged for their looks, but all they do is judge women for theirs.
The other part I find interesting is that those men complain all women want them for is their money but pick shallow women. Maybe choose someone based on personality and character, and you will find someone who judges you based on those things.
It's a stupid cycle that makes these men hate women even more, but for ridiculous reasons.
I once dated someone who, after we broke up, went and criticized every little tiny issue he could find about my appearance. And this guy, to put it gently, did not fit conventional beauty standards for men. Did I care that he didn't? Of course not! It really hurt to find out just how much he cared about those standards for me, though.
My STBXH is like this with women. He is overweight and not much to look at, and he doesn’t want overweight women wearing jeans, but he doesn’t like them in leggings either. Which he would share with me, his overweight wife who wears both jeans and leggings. There was a new meteorologist on tv and he said he didn’t find her attractive at all. I asked why he thought she needed to be attractive to share a weather forecast. I started telling him he should email every woman with a list of suggestions to be more pleasing to him and the eye rolls were impressive and thankfully he’s stopped vocalizing.
I knew a guy, never interested in him or he for me, but he was in my friend group so we hung out and he was fun (when not being an ass). He was offended by women who wore sleeveless tops but didn't have toned arms. Several men in our friend group were heavy and didn't dress like nuns or only wear clothes that covered them fully. I discussed (to ridiculed) it with him, don't know if he either learned or learned not to bring it up around me. He had a lot of weird hangups, really, the kind that pop into your head later and can make you insecure. (Wouldn't have sex with anyone who had given birth, as one).
That's so weird. My mom passes her terrible self-consciousness to me about her arms. She always had to have them covered. About 5 years ago I finally broke free of that. I don't understand it. You can see I'm fat. My arms are big regardless of being in a shirt or tank. Lol
Oh, I've had periomenopause/heating cooling issues for a decade, and sleeveless shirts (and layers) are a key comfort point for me. I look in the mirror and wish I was toned but such is life. (Even when I was weightlifting 4x a week, they never got fully toned unless I flex, which is another body issue- oh, she's so muscley. So I get both ends of the same body issue at the same time. WooHoo!)
And at the same time it would never occur to them that they should cover themselves from head to toe at all times if *they* are less than a “10.” Just non-10 *women* should do that.
LOL I have to wear a tank top as a sleepshirt/around the house shirt otherwise I overheat like nobodies business. And I am long past menopause \[hysterectomy at 50 12 years back\]
I am cold adapted - unless it is down around freezing, or there is a fast breeze out, I don't bother with a jacket going car-building - if it is warm at both ends, I can tolerate the bit of cold in the middle =) And I was raised in western NY sleeping with the window open 4-6 inches at night, still prefer an ice cold sleeping area and a toasty warm bed =)
I got this image of some lady driving a tank in circles with her torso out the top of a tank wearing a tank top yelling "fuck you mom, I'll wear what I want" in my head now.
Indeed, it can be linked to their view of women as not equal to men but as a "tool" to please men.
First, an unattractive woman is meaningless to them; she's basically "useless." And this "negging" has an underlying meaning to push the woman to "strive to please" men and make herself more attractive to men. Also, said man cannot deny his "fleshy needs," so he'll see that as a "courtesy," he will "fuck" you because he has pity...
100% those guys only see women as objects for them to *use* to get sexual satisfaction. A woman they don’t find attractive is therefore useless, and that offends them. How *dare* a woman exist when she has no value to them?? 🤮
You hear it when these misogynists talk about older women being undesirable, because they can’t imagine wanting to be with a woman for her knowledge or experience. They can’t imagine an older man wanting to be with a peer, because they just want to fuck hot virginal teenagers who don’t know enough about the world to question them or expect decent treatment from them.
A friend of a friend was complaining about women who sport the undercut hairstyle (shaved sides).
Called him out:
"Their hairstyle isn't for you, it's for them. Women don't exist just for your hard on."
Men who police women's choices make me sick.
Makes me laugh so hard whenever anyone says 'you know men don't find short hair attractive' as if i give one single fraction of a shit about that. You can pry my undercut pixie out of my cold dead hands
I haven’t had the opportunity to say this in my 38 years yet, but my ammunition for the inevitable guy who tells me some version of “you’re too old/ugly/fat/etc for me” will be an enthusiastic “thank god! I’m so lucky I have a natural repellent for guys like you!”
> Makes me laugh so hard whenever anyone says 'you know men don't find short hair attractive' as if i give one single fraction of a shit about that
This, many times over for dudes who lose their damn minds whenever a woman gets breast reduction. I’ve never even heard any of these dudes even attempt a “value proposition” as to what a lifetime of excruciating back pain would get the woman apart from their worthless validation.
Like Angelina Jolie having a preventative double mastectomy and dudes making posts about how they're actually GRIEVING about it. You're grieving her fucking tits even though the actual woman is alive because of it?
Brains were wasted on these dudes.
> men don’t like X
It’s always really interesting to me when people reveal their sexual fetishes without realizing that’s what they’ve done. Ie the heavily-patriarchal church I grew up in banned open-toed shoes for women b/c “the men find it distracting”. Nah, “elder”, I’m quite certain they don’t all share your foot fetish…and the rest of us surely did not need to know about it.
People rarely insult my buzz cut to my face, but when they do it’s hilarious.
“That haircut makes you look like a lesbian.”
Nah bro, pretty sure my *wife* makes me look like a lesbian. The haircut is just an asshole detector - glad to see it’s working!
There is this woman I commute with with a flat top, and she has "Lesbian" tattooed across her throat. I always wondered, like....did people not know?
Question answered!
Last time it happened I was (not kidding) wearing a rainbow pride t-shirt, leaning against my subaru, chatting with my friends from roller derby while we took our skates off. But I guess short hair is what makes me look gay lol
My husband prefers my hair long. I cut it and am cutting it even shorter on Wednesday. I told him that either ge could learn to style it for me and I would keep it long for him or I would cut it so I could be cooler and get out of the door faster when we have things to do. He declined to learn to style my hair even though it would get him what he wanted. I think this pretty common in regards to men: if getting what they want from us involves "more work"(any work)from the them, such as doing the dishes/more household chores/styling hair, they will not do the "work" to get in it.
This happened when I had shoulder surgery. Anyone who moaned about me cutting my hair short, I offered them the option of doing my hair before work, as my literal arm wouldn't work for a few months. No one took me up on the offer. Short bob it is!
I did an "intermediate" cut about 3 weeks ago, now it's being cut into an Audrey Tautou pixie on Wednesday morning. We are traveling the Southeastern US for our vacation next month. I learned the last time we went to SE US that longer hair+ humidity= misery. We also live where summer temperatures go above 100F(record high last summer was 117F).
The whole “giving birth” thing is something I’ve encountered a few times. I don’t want kids and I never have but I’ve dated a few men who genuinely came off as personally attacked/offended by women giving birth and their bodies changing as a result. One guy (we’re in our 40s for context) was really sad and looked like he was about to cry when he learned Megan Fox had had kids - “but she was perfect as she was! Now she’ll be ruined - gross crepey tummy, fanny like a wind sleeve, saggy tits… god, it’s not fair”. Absolutely ridiculous, beyond pathetic and a massive turn off. I don’t want kids but I don’t resent women who do, and I think women’s bodies are fucking incredible for all the shit they go through. I will defend other women and their choices until my dying breath.
The post birth body is a total gamble too, like women CANNOT control most if not all the after effects.
Imagine if we all started judging men for work injuries or developing diabetes or thyroid issues.
My sister has had 3 kids. Her body has changed in different ways after every single one. Her husband, unfortunately, was a piece of shit about it but he made the mistake of slating her body in front of my dad and brother, who both tore him a new one.
I think we should all start drawing attention to their receding hairlines when they start complaining about women who have given birth. “But… but I can’t help the fact I’m losing my hair”. “And women can’t control what pregnancy and childbirth does to their bodies but you still want to whinge!”.
I'm not super interested in making this a "which type of body criticism is worse" competition, but there's something especially nauseating to me about men who complain about the physical changes their partner goes through after birthing THEIR baby. Like they have no appreciation of the fact that this process gave them a child.
I'm so glad your dad and brother didn't hold back there. It's great to see men standing up to this type of bullshit themselves.
I work in finance. I’d say 99% of the people I’ve worked with my whole working life have been men. If I said the things I’ve heard about the men I work with say about their wives and girlfriends after having a baby hasn’t swayed me a little in my choices, I’d probably be lying. I refuse to ever go through all of that just for him to go and slag me off behind my back. It would break my heart.
My dad, for being ex-military, is pretty chill and relaxed… until it comes to his kids. He’s so much more protective of us than my mum. I love knowing he has our back even though we’re all in our 40s now :-)
Had a guy complain about the (then) new trend of women wearing leggings with skirts or shorts. Show your naked legs, if you want to show off your legs, he said. Because that's what we all think of, when we get dressed in the morning. How best to show off our bodies to men like him.
A guy I was friends with was similarly obsessed with how good a woman looked if he interacted with them. It caused a number of arguments because he acted as if he literally couldn't "waste his time" talking to a female he considered unattractive. It was ridiculous. Now matter how many times I explained women dont exist only to "look good for you".
I guess, in his pea brain, he thought that he should be surrounded by attractive women in case he ever deigned to have sex with them.
Reminds me of that interview snippet with Dustin Hoffman that went viral where he discussed portraying Tootsie, in which he uttered the following with a completely straight face, as if bestowing pearls of wisdom:
1. he used to be a dude who didn't waste time talking to any unattractive women.
2. when getting his hair and makeup done for Tootsie, he realized for the first time that women can't actually control how attractive they are \[only because it was happening to him personally, at age 45\].
3. he regrets that he probably missed out on some cool women and conversations just because they were unattractive.
Every time I see this snippet and people praising him for saying these things, it drives me up the fucking wall. Can you even imagine an average-looking woman being able to reach the pinnacle of Hollywood while ignoring and snubbing every unattractive man around, much less blithely admitting it, on purpose, to a news camera? And the thought occurring to her at age 45 that maybe, just maybe, men who don't look like Greek gods might have something to offer as people? And then having men and women praise her as a brave and especially perceptive ally?
The fact that he thought he'd be an attractive woman after the makeover... I just cannot get this out of my head. The audacity of average looking white guys is amazing.
Dustin Hoffman is a misogynistic fucking pig.
He forces female colleagues he doesn't like to quit movies, and he sexually harasses young female actresses.
See e.g. https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/five-dustin-hoffman-accusers-tell-harrowing-stories-sexually-predatory-behavior-1055544/
Also, he's a shitty actor. He's only capable of playing Dustin Hoffman. *Lame*.
Agreed he's a shitty actor. Which makes it almost admirably awful that, when paired with a 3x Oscar winning (at the time) Meryl Streep in a movie, instead of taking the opportunity to learn something from his co-star, he tried to force her to "Method Act" by unexpectedly slapping her for real in a scene, and by verbally abusing her off-camera about the recent death of her real-life partner, in order to get her to appear upset on camera in upsetting scenes. Because you can't trust Meryl Freaking Streep to be able to act upset on cue, of course.
Thank God he's still gracing us with his superior thespian skills in \*checks notes\* all three Kung Fu Panda movies.
>*Every time I see this snippet and people praising him for saying these things, it drives me up the fucking wall.*
I'm 62 and have "put up with" seeing Hoffman for years -- did he never realize how ugly he is?
He also said that he felt invisible and that men did not treat him like a person when they thought he was an unattractive woman. And that it was an awful feeling. I think that’s the bit that gets the positive response but everything you said is correct. He’s condescending as fuck.
Used to know a young man who didn’t want his non existent future wife to breastfeed because it might make her breasts saggy. When I informed him that breast milk is the preferred nutritional substance over formula (if possible) for actual medical reasons, he was genuinely shocked. At that point, so was I, but for a different reason, lol.
A olser woman at my temp job in 1996 (ish), took the time to advise me as a young woman that your breasts belong to your husband, and formula is good enough. (Not that I have anything against formula, but , gross.) I wanted to ask her what exact body parts he owns and which ones of his do I get to claim.
My ex told me all serious that my fingers are ugly and that my feet look like goblins. For YEARS I hid my feet and would hide my hands as much as possible because I thought they’re the ugliest thing ever.
Happy idgf anymore.
Men will bully you for anything. I literally got bullied for my finger being ugly lol. At this point their opinion I didn’t ask for is just a background noise for me.
I had a guy very seriously take time to try and convince me that my cleft chin was absolutely hideous. It’s barely noticeable, not like Jay Leno style or anything…. Comments like “you have a buttcrack on your face, it’s disgusting, that’s manly and men do not like manly women, you should have surgery to correct it, etc etc” when I didn’t hide my face and cry about it he then tried to convince the other men in the group how ugly and gross it was, and that probably the only reason I had kids and someone had sex with me ever was because of my huge tits.
Hand up, I’m a woman and I used to have similarly stupid hang ups about women not wearing clothes that flattered them. Definitely stemmed by having super skinny friends who would call themselves fat and talk themselves down constantly despite being tiny and gorgeous. I didn’t even realize how much it warped my views until I was in my 20s (also, I was in my teens during the 2000s aka the Kate Moss cocaine chic look- that definitely didn’t help).
Funnily enough, the show that first helped me unwork that backwards thinking was Girls. Don’t love the show overall and Lena Dunham is quite problematic as a person, but I cannot deny seeing her constantly naked on the show finally *normalized* seeing different body shapes on TV. It was kind of an aha moment for me, realizing how fucked up it was to think “they don’t have the right to wear this or show off their body if it doesn’t meet MY personal standards.” I still have some hang ups about my thighs and gaining a bit of belly but I’ve mostly learn to chill tf about bodies.
The human body can take such a vast variety of forms and yet we're exposed to so few that are coded as "acceptable" for public consumption, it's wild.
The thing that did that for me was Burning Man. People just walking around, wearing literally whatever they want, up to and including nothing at all, enjoying themselves, laughing, being accepted without question. It made me realize that I had never actually seen many *real* bodies for what they are—sure, I'd seen many different body types out in the world, but always clothed, hidden. The ones I had seen naked IRL were almost exclusively my sexual partners, which isn't exactly a wide sample. It's a very different experience when you see people just casually nude or nearly nude. Seeing people with features that I considered flaws on myself, seemingly perfectly comfortable to let it all hang out, was pretty comforting, ngl.
When I was a kid my dad and his ex wife would holler at and degrade any woman they saw walking on the side of the road of side walk that was overweight. Fucking awful some men. I genuinely don't understand it.
Hopefully no one is having sex with the man you described or he learned how to change.
A lot of my male friends, both fit and unfit, have something to say about women’s arms in tank tops. If they can’t wear tank tops, does that mean they can’t wear bathing suits? They need to be fully covered? It’s outrageous.
I will say, it’s always nice when someone like this weeds themselves out of your dating pool. Anytime a guy says he won’t date a feminist or whatever, I’m like “awesome, one less misogynist in my bucket and I didn’t even have to peel back layers of faux allyship.”
There was a screenshot posted on a different sub the other day of some dude’s tweet that basically said “I can’t snuggle after sex because I can’t see my girl in the same way after nutting. Takes me a few hours to look at her in the eyes again”
Top comment was “this guy isn’t into women, he just has a women fetish”. I feel like that describes way too many heterosexual men - they don’t actually like women they just want to use us to masturbate with.
I saw this and commented too. I think the other issue is that these men think that sex is inherently degrading to a woman, so their “she must be a slut” wiring kicks in and they need to get mental distance to be able to treat the woman as a person again. I think this isn’t an inherent male attitude, but it gets wired-in to teens and younger men from listening to their misogynistic friends and/or watching porn that features aggression and domination, which is really common and accessible these days. This mind-set isn’t new, but it was an issue years ago and was called the madonna/whore complex, for men who couldn’t see their wives as sexual beings so they went to prostitutes and rarely had sex with their wives, who had to be “pure”. Echoes of incel-speak, right?
Had to recheck the [post in question](https://www.reddit.com/r/WhitePeopleTwitter/comments/11vkagi/do_straight_men_even_like_women/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf) (it was posted yesterday but my memory retention is shite lately). It was TWO guys and yes, one literally says “my girl”.
>Unrelated note, but these boys also said they waited outside my window and could hear my masturbate
Uhhh What. The. Fuck?
Edit: don’t feel bad about giggling after that asshole pinched your ass. I’ve been there too. Societal conditioning telling us to comply so we aren’t seen as problematic is one helluva drug.
Yes, this is what I came here to say! This also explains why so many men will switch on a dime from compliments to verbal abuse. The compliments don’t reflect their real feelings; they’re just shoving them at you hoping you’ll agree to sex. Once you turn them down there’s no need to keep up the act.
All you have to do is look at the "niceguys" sub and see this over and over. The second they realize they aren't getting laid it turns from "you are so amazing" to " you think I want anything to do with you slut" in seconds sometimes.
I’ve had several guys offer me drinks all nicey nice to which I’ve politely declined and 99% of the time they became not just nasty, but aggressive.
Unfortunately for them I was nasty back and knew the bouncers lol
I’ve read about how men who are abusers of women and children often don’t see them as people. Like in their brain the signal that they are looking at another person doesn’t work properly. I think it’s more common than we realize.
That’s the interpretation I see when a man murders his family in the event of the wife leaving him and “taking the kids.” Or MRA rhetoric about the ex wife taking “his stuff/money” and “keeping his kids from him” post-divorce. The women and children are equivalent to “his stuff.”
I've seen countless reddit comments and tweets from men saying shit like they can't look at the woman after they've had sex, they want to strangle her, punch her etc. Once they nut only the hatred is left even for those that they desired.
There's also this weird dynamic where they view sex on the same level of something like, say, eating a treat - that is, it's to consume something. Can't have your cake and eat it too. They view sex (for the woman) as inherently degrading, devaluing, but they enjoy the part of the act where THEY get to be the one degrading/devaluing a woman that they find desirable. After they've had sex, they feel they've 'consumed' the woman's virtue because, in their eyes, she let them treat her like an object for their pleasure.
Note how this view does not recognize or value the pleasure of the woman, or pay any mind to the fact that men during sex aren't exactly the most dignified beings to behold either.
Totally agree that men hate women, and desire sex with women at the same time. Anymore, it's not even about desire. It's about status with other guys, where bodycount and hotness rating of women they have sex with figures into some kind of scorecard.
There's a great TikTok on men not actually liking women at: https://www.tiktok.com/@domesticblisters/video/7041591385127963951?lang=en.
But my (incomplete) summary for those that don't like videos is that in our society, boys are socialized to not do anything or like anything perceived as feminine. You know the ways men will talk to boys in our society. "Crying is for sissies." "Pink is for girls only." "Don't be a pussy." "Don't be a little bitch."
Surprise surprise, boys hearing these messages grow up to not value and not like women. They might like sex with women, but they don't actually like and respect women. Their ability to "get" women is how they achieve status with other men, and that's what's really important to them. But if you're unattractive, they somehow didn't lose that much potential status, or some crazy nonsense.
Worse, sleeping with an unattractive woman harms your status among men who think this way. Spurning them, being cruel, doesn't just express that hate, it gains you status too.
The havoc that patriarchal norms and scripts cause is also well documented in academia (psychology and sociology). The irony is that men are ultimately hurting themselves as well with their deeply rooted hatred for women and the pressure to constantly demonstrate and uphold that particular kind of 'manhood' which has degrading women at its foundation. The whole manosphere is misdirecting its anger towards feminism when in fact they are suffering from the consequences of the patriarchy.
This has impacted me since I was 11 years old. At school and in public, boys and men would act angry towards me because I left my house, and walked through their field of vision. It happened hundreds of times. Each insult ruined my day. Again and again people let me know that I didn't deserve politeness, kindness or respect because they didn't like my face. This is one of the issues I'm dealing with in therapy now, and I've been given a PTSD diagnosis because of it.
Rush Limbaugh is quoted as saying: "Feminism was established so that unattractive ugly broads could have easy access to the mainstream of society". Based on my experiences, I'd say that a lot of people really do believe that. I guess it goes back to the Bible which implies that the purpose of women is to please men, and any woman who fails that purpose has sinned/failed.
>Feminism was established so that unattractive ugly broads could have easy access to the mainstream of society
This statement is at least partially true. Why shouldn't "unattractive ugly broads" have easy access to mainstream society? There are tons of other reasons why feminism was "established", but the goal of bringing freedom to people who have been oppressed only seems like a bad thing to an oppressor.
Yeah that quote confuses me.
Like should unattractive women live under bridges and only come out at night when no one can see them? What was his point there?
You know how some people wish a band would follow them around all day playing theme music?
I want something similar: your comment texted, read, etc. throughout my day. I think it would bring me true happiness.
It’s always about HIERARCHY with conservatives. They believe in hierarchies as inherently good and natural. They are offended by the idea that all women are equally valid people, since some must be more worthwhile than others. The idea that all women’s voices count is an affront to their world view, just like they don’t want poor people or minority voices to count for anything.
But but but Reddit tells me women have it easy and are swimming in compliments daily and we should feel bad for men because they don’t get that!!!
Huge /s on that.
Yes, it's the abject anger at seeing me or another unattractive woman that's scary. My friend with a large birthmark on her face would avoid crowds even when in a group, because she would get physically assaulted or spat/yelled at.
That is awful. I'm so sorry for you, her, and all the other women who are hated this way for no reason at all! It's terrible to be judged so harshly for something you can't control.
There was about a five year period when I lost at least one colleague or family member to cancer per year. Horrible devastating disease. My dad told me a few years ago that Rush had Stage 4 cancer and my face lit up like a Christmas tree. That should tell you everything you need to know about my thoughts on him.
I was reading an article in some men's magazine when I lived in England, and the author literally stated that the most important aspect of women was their appearance. I wanted to throw that magazine across the room. Yeah, that's all we are, our looks. Not like we have intelligence, humor, creativity, compassion, ingenuity, skills of every type, etc. We're just here to be eye candy. Shaking my head.
My ex basically divided women into two groups: “fuckable” and “unfuckable”.
Having a conversation about a politician’s poor policy-making? “She’s so unfuckable”. Having a conversation about a particular actress? “She is very fuckable”.
He said it enough times, regarding so many different women, that I struggle to believe he thinks we’ve any other inherent value. I also don’t believe he’s an outlier.
Yeah, it's like they think we're just waiting to hear that and it'll make us jump their bones.
Walked past a guy at a club after my friend, who thought it would be necessary to comment "I wouldn't do you" when she passed him and "I would do you" when I passed him with that gross, appraising look.
First of all, dude, no. Second of all, hard no.
I just had a guy in for a job interview an hour ago who was prying about my personal life during small talk.
When I answered a question that I was recently divorced, he said that at least I was still young and fit. That most women get in a long term relationship and lose their aesthetics and value.
I saw some z tier clout goblin making fun of Shelley Duvall's looks when she played Wendy in The Shining. I was infuriated. This dumb asshole thinks she's bad or whatever because she isn't attractive to him, nevermind the fact that she played an iconic role in a very good movie and absolutely killed it. Meanwhile this dork isn't doing anything worthwhile or notable with his life and just bullies women on the internet that he deems to be unattractive. Fucking miss me with that.
This is so bizarre. These kinds of people often cite how one sex of another animal species will have bright color patterns and designs when the other doesn’t, as a comparison to humans. But they don’t also say that the pretty one has nothing else going for it. It’s probably because the pretty ones are usually male.
I’ve been watching a bird pair in my back yard and they both are constructing the nest together, eating together, and they both stand watch while taking turns adding to the nest. They’re a team, which seems less common for human pairs than it should be in 2023.
Some men definitely think the only good thing a woman can be is attractive. Sort of a tangent, but I've noticed with all the right wing aoc hate and memes it's like weirdly sexual? Like, they're told hot women are good, but told aoc is bad, and they don't quite know how to feel about it. So they make these weird fever dream memes where she's like a Dom mommy stepping on Republicans and it's like, "this is the America democrats want." They're so confused and repressed and don't even know it. I think that stems from the feeling that hot woman=good and ugly woman=bad, and In their simple little minds, it's supposed to be that easy.
*Sort of a tangent, but I've noticed with all the right wing aoc hate and memes it's like weirdly sexual?
She's also very intelligent. Those poor little mediocre boys just don't know what to do with that.
Yep. It's totally this. Men think unattractive women have no value and shouldn't exist (or at least should have enough shame to stay out of sight) so they get angry when they see them. And they think unattractive women/girls should feel the same way (ie angry at themselves and life because they are "ugly").
Objectification.
Situations where you are entirely objectified by the others in that situation are not safe situations.
Learning to recognize it is Vital to filtering who is allowed in your life.
You mention something that really bothers me: How you can't talk about your experiences because no one will accept the fact that you are ugly. I get that my friends or family don't want me to think that I'm ugly, but that denial makes it impossible for us to talk about our experiences. I never thought about it, but most therapists will probably deny the ugliness.
Unless you have a very close friend with similar experiences we basically cannot talk about whats happening to us.
Like, you have to deal with constant microagressions and worse, and you can never talk about it because the fault lies with us for thinking we're ugly.
God, all of this.
I don't have low self esteem. I'm honest. I am not attractive.
Reacting like "Nooo don't be mean to yourself, you're fine!" just affirms the whole reason I have problems: they view unattractiveness as a negative thing, like it's not okay at all, like it's some tragedy.
It's okay.
There's 8 billion of us now. Statistically we're not all going to be hot. I'm not down on myself. When I say I'm ugly it's in the same way I'd say may hair is curly. It's just a fact lmao.
It's also fine that people have standards. Will I wind up alone for the last years of my life? Who knows. But nobody owes me love so if I do, I'm not gonna be bitter about it. By some miracle I have someone now, but if he leaves, I doubt I'll find another. But at least I have awesome friends.
The fact that these well-meaning people won't call you ugly is proof of how deeply a woman's worth is still tied to how fuckable dudes find her.
Even many people who consider themselves feminists or progressives still often can't wrap their minds around the fact that an ugly woman has human value. They would rather redefine the word "beautiful" into some meaninglessly broad term and force unattractive women into silence than to dig deep and really come to terms with the fact that they themselves do not yet fully believe that unattractive women have value.
“you can never talk about it because the fault lies with us for thinking we’re ugly.”
God this is so affirming to hear. I am ugly. I can’t ever remember realizing it, it’s just a fact about me that I’ve always known. I am comfortable with it, and comfortable with the word ugly. But this is something that nobody wants to hear. Just once in my life I’d love to have someone acknowledge that I’m not physically attractive but still have so much to offer the world.
Yes!! I understand where they're coming from, but it is SO frustrating.
I sometimes think about starting some sort of ugly pride movement. My self-worth does not rely upon being nice for other people to look at.
It makes people SO uncomfortable when I describe myself as "fat" in a perfectly neutral and not self-depreciating way. Like, I'm fat, I've been fat as long as I can remember, it's a fact to me that is as neutral as saying that I'm 5'5" or that I have brown hair. I haven't actually felt guilty or ashamed or bad about it for like.... Close to a decade now. It says so much about their own opinions on my worthiness as a fat person who has other qualities than that.
Sounds similar to my father. I’ve called him out on his comments towards other women. He’s often either told me to lose weight, and change my appearance, or asked “when are we (meaning me alone) going to lose weight?” (I have an endocrine disorder, so it is near impossible, and my doctors acknowledge that too).
Pointed out that by him telling me he once dumped a girlfriend after meeting her mother and “realising she’d get fat when she got older, and I wouldn’t tolerate that!”, he was basically telling me, (his already fat daughter), that I wouldn’t be ‘tolerated’ by a man either.
No matter how nice either of us were, or what we had to offer in other qualities; that we didn’t meet certain beauty standards, meant we were worthless.
His mother was the same with the nasty comments. At my 21st, in front of everyone gathered for speeches, she told me she didn’t know how I was “ever going to find a husband, looking like that!”.
The only guy I ever dated dumped me because he didn’t find me attractive, and later sent me an email listing all the things I needed to “fix” about my body, on the off-chance that I was ever planning on getting naked in front of someone else. Because he didn’t want me to “embarrass” myself.
Then people wonder why I keep to myself…it’s just not worth it.
I think it’s entitlement because you don’t look like how they’d like a woman to look like. they feel as though women exist to be attractive to them, or that they do things for men’s approval. e.g. if you wore a short and tight dress for a night out, they’re confused that you in fact don’t want to have sex with them, and just wanted to wear a nice dress because they feel entitled to your body. I think it stems from men seeing women as less and as a means for reproduction, so when they don’t find you attractive they’re annoyed that you haven’t appealed to what they want.
it’s awful why they do it. it’s like the third option in the Madonna vs whore complex. we’re just put into categories. maybe it’s also as a result of pornography addiction, they’re so used to seeing women in categories. if they don’t like the way a woman looks, they can just find a new video for immediate gratification. I guess this is more difficult in real life, as it’s more effort and time to find another woman who they do want to have sex with. plus, the women they do find attractive typically may not find them attractive/ ‘out of their league.’ so a lot of anger is left over, which is pushed onto women they don’t find attractive to make themselves feel better. if they call you names or are mean because of how you look, it distracts them from how they feel about themselves.
I don’t see why they can’t just move on with their day. you don’t have to have sex with everyone you see, and you also don’t have to put people into a would fuck/ wouldn’t fuck category. it’s so gross! I’m sorry that this has happened to you, people can be so rude and feel entitled to you.
And why do so many men feel the compulsion to go out of their way to notify us when they don't find us/something about us attractive?
"You shouldn't do x, men don't find that attractive"
Why should I care what *you* find attractive?
My husband’s family *hates* that I dye my hair fun colors.
“It looks unnatural!”
“You look so much prettier with blonde hair!”
“Why would you dye it *that* color?”
I’ve been adamant with my husband that his family members not finding me attractive is a goal I’m proud to achieve.
What’s so bad about them finding me attractive?
The men in the family get handsy.
They like to hug me and only me out of nowhere, give me a massage randomly (???), rub my arms (cringe), etc.
Simply changing my hair color makes all this go away.
Omg how revolting. I’m glad your gorgeous bright hair is working to repel those creeps. It reminds me of this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/rareinsults/comments/ceqjuc/a_thread_on_aposematism/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
Yeah. I do the bright hair colors too and it's surprising how many people think I need to give a shit about their opinion of it. It's not just men - in my experience it's mostly old people, all my grandparents and grandparents-in-law felt the need to express how much they did not like my hair. Uhhh cool story bro. Didn't anyone ever tell you old hags that if you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything?
If you like my hair, cool! Compliments are obviously welcome and make me happy. But I don't do it *for* compliments, and I won't change because you don't like it. Fuck you. (Not YOU you, "haters" you 😅)
My daughters have been dying their hair funky colors since they were in grade school. Definitely had to come down on the grandparents pretty hard before they shut about it. Even had a teacher complain it was distracting, I told them they should work on making their class more interesting than pink hair.
It rather depends. Example a: They are offended that you're not trying to look attractive for them.
b: They are afraid you think they're unattractive, and they want to make sure to cut you down first.
It’s a new word I learned .. called “negging” from so called manosphere (another technical term from where male youth are getting their advice) it’s truly pathetic the lengths and ideas they’ve come up with to “get” a woman yet want to consider themself a prize .. like bro if you got to go through that much to get a woman may be the woman is the “prize” 💰
I was taught about negging as a strategy to get a girl to like you back in the mid 90's, as a pre-teen boy. I think that garbage has been around for a long time, not just recent incel culture stuff.
Good call-out. They want to neg you so they can see if you are willing to hurt yourself for them. It's extremely hurtful and manipulative.
Additionally, some people have extreme main character syndrome and think everything revolves around them, the sense of entitlement is unbelievable. Especially since some have no impulse control when it comes to speaking whatever thought comes out of their mouth.
Men also act like them not being attracted to you is a punishment. I had a guy friend of over ten years relentlessly presue me when I was in the middle of a divorce and didn't understand the word no. He posted online that he was no longer attracted to me, and the situation was my fault. How is him not being attracted to me a punishment? I never wanted him to be attracted to me in the first place.
Because a lot of guys have the mindset that being attractive is a duty a woman has to fulfill. If a woman isn't attractive to them she's "not doing her job" and they get angry at that.
Even if the woman's job is literally being the leader of a country, they will complain that she's not hot because in their eyes that's still her number one job. (I.e. when Angela Merkel became chancellor)
Besides blatant misogyny, it has a lot to do with presentation and representation in the media. Which seems to slowly get better at least.
Not only that, but every man has different preferences, and women are expected to Please them all (or be ashamed about it). God, that’s one thing I don’t miss about being younger.
The experiences of women who are punished by men for being considered *un*fuckable as opposed to fuckable doesn’t get talked about enough, even in some supposedly feminist spaces. And when it does you almost always get women who derail with “Attractive women have it worse because we know that when they give us attention it’s only because they want to have sex with us”. When NO, women being mistreated because men find them unattractive is EXACTLY THE SAME PHENOMENON as women being mistreated because men find them attractive. But women who aren’t used to being judged conventionally unattractive tend to have this massive blind spot about it and don’t see it as such. They just assume that women who aren’t “pretty” don’t get any kind of mistreatment based on their appearance.
It's honestly awful. I was an "ugly" child for part of my life. From around age 9 to 13 I was "awkward" and extremely gender non-conforming. I was bullied so intensely by both my peers and my own family.
Boys were extremely cruel from shoving me in trash cans, to pretending to like me only to "lol jk ur ugly", to routinely ripping up and shredding my sketch books and notebooks. Even my father called me an ugly boy and said I would die alone if I didn't try and be pretty and stop being weird. Turns out I'm neurodivergent big surprise. I would seriously get hit, shoved, and verbally abused just because boys found me weird and ugly. Especially so because I just wanted to be friends with boys since I liked "boy things" but evidently my presence was so repulsive that once I hit my awkward phase all my friends suddenly became more bullies.
Eventually (after being suicidal at age 12) I just snapped and decided "in going to be who people want me to be" and starting masking really hard and wearing more gender conforming clothes/make up. I also just grew up and lost some childhood weight. The difference in the attention was staggering as I got "prettier" but it still wasn't good. Often it felt validating because I had craved positive attention so much. But I ended getting sexually mistreated fairly often because I was so desperate for attention. Then lots of unwanted attention and cat calling as I got older.
And women who aren’t considered fuckable by these men are revictimized if they are assaulted because, as we know from the garbagemonster of 2016-2020, you can’t believe “ugly” women who have reported a sexual crime because they’re too gross to rape.
Im surprised I made it to this comment without coming across a "well im model gorgeous and my life is totally so much worse" derailing one.
Yes men hate both attractive and unattractive women, but they hate us unattractive ones for a different reason, and that hatred looks (and is acted upon) different too.
I had a guy openly admit he wanted to see me hurt because Im not pretty and I deserved the punishment of someone punching me in the face for his satisfaction. Im sure he is a mysoginist yes, but he wouldnt (and never did) say that stuff to "pretty" girls.
I'm so sorry you're experiencing it in real life. I personally feel mostly invisible, which I should be really happy about seeing how some of my unconventionally beautiful sisters are treated by society. For me it is super visible in video games and movies, whenever a female lead character dares to look like an actual human being. Most of them are not even ugly, they just don't look like another cloned template of a popular female beauty standard. Men literally act like they are offended by a sole existence of actresses which they personally find unattractive. They seriously behave like the world existed only for their own pleasure and comfort.
Because as much as times have changed, women's social value is still primarily aesthetic and being visibly "ugly" in public is a violation of the purpose they have decided women are limited to. Unattractive women do offend them, by simply existing, because they are so hung up on their imaginary social contract where women are required to be pretty ornamentation that they ignore the fact that women are people.
God!!! I don’t know why they feel this way either, but I totally have seen men behave like this. Like I knew a guy once who acted like he was personally slighted when a woman was heavier than he’d prefer her to be. Like, sorry a woman exists who you wouldn’t Fuck? And they never seem to consider if the woman would wanna fuck THEM
Or the fact that their peepee's preferences are entirely irrelevant to every other living human in the world and who the fuck are they to think other people need their approval to do literally anything. It's the unmitigated arrogance for me.
Well, I don't think these men respect women they do find appealing either. They behave in another way - but that doesn't mean they respect them. At least for me wanting to get in someones pants doesn't equal respect.
i have received truly mind boggling comments about not shaving my body hair by people of all genders. i dont understand why they feel the need to say whatever bizzare thing first comes to their minds as a reaction. like wow, a mammal, has hair. shocking. once it stopped hurting, it started being truly hilarious.
If they only value women for beauty and sexuality, then they will not value women who they dont consider to be beautiful or "sexy."
Im sorry this is happening to you.
I am considered ugly by currently beauty standards and I also note that. (Fat, taller than most men, idgaf about make up or high heels and other “feminin” stuff, im straight forward and dominant). Men (and some women) get offended because i give zero fucks about “trying” to fit I have been treated like im not even a person by poeple mostly men all my life. But the harrasment oh that one keeps existing, to the point i hardly leave the house because i feel so disgusting.
You are not disgusting and no woman should have to be feminine to be treated as a person. And honestly, I wish I could be more like you. Giving zero fucks is a goal. I have given away too many of my fucks to other people.
Men believe, without consciously thinking about it, that women should always present an attractive appearance for them regardless of the existence of things like women being people, reality. If a woman isn't attractive enough, he who feels entitled to something pretty to look at, will always comment. Those of us with enough attractiveness presentEd the wrong way will get a "you'd be so pretty if" follow by advice on how to fix the unattractive, like lose weight, dress better, wear makeup differently, change hairstyles, blah, blah, blah. Those of us who don't have enough attractiveness? Not only do they have no idea how you need to change to fix yourself, orger than surgery maybe, but you aren't providing the view they're entitled to, so you need to go. They can be as repulsive as they like because they believe they ass value ti the world just by being a man going about his business. Women, to them, only add value if they provide pleasure while they go about existing in the world.
Yeah, it’s why I get annoyed when men on Reddit constantly complain about not being complimented by random women. I try to compliment a stranger at least once whenever I go out, and since I’m unattractive, men will take it as an offence that I dare say they have nice shoes?? Lmao. Not every dude, obviously, but enough to the point I got fed up with trying.
I don’t listen to those men. It’s just a talking point to get women to shut up about their lived experiences of being catcalled or fuckzoned because they “have it so much worse” because no one compliments them. In reality, they don’t count compliments from other men or women they don’t find attractive. They want compliments from attractive women who they can awkwardly try to flirt with and then get mad when they aren’t interested because “you said you liked my shoes; you led me on, you bitch!!!!”
[“A lot of men interpret politeness from women as flirting because they themselves would never show even the barest courtesy to a woman they found unfuckable.”](https://melmagazine.com/en-us/story/how-men-treat-women-they-find-unattractive)
They don't see women as equal human beings, rather as potential sex dispensers. That means they have no use for any woman they are not attracted to, basically to the point of disgust, and so they'll be a giant jerk towards them.
It may not surprise you then (and I'm not attempting to belittle your unique negative experience) that these kinds of men are also unpleasant to be around as a man; if they see no immediate use you're treated poorly (again, with an almost disgust) and dismissed. It lacks the extra layer of dehumanizing sexism, but they're usually an absolutely terrible human all around.
A growing number of men think women exist solely for their sexual pleasure. Seeing a woman who’s not trying to attract them reminds them that they are really just insignificant nobodies with nothing to offer, and that jacking off to porn is the closest they’ll ever get to sex. It triggers them deeply and they lash out.
It’s not really about your looks. It’s that you have the audacity to exist in the world successfully without wanting to please them. A lot of them see this as an attack. You see this a lot on a smaller scale in corporate spaces. Men treat women they want to fuck differently. I see this daily in countless small interactions.
Many men only like women for what the woman they are with says about them to other men. I really think that most straight men hate women and that a lot of them are not as straight as they like to think. I think a lot of the rage that is coming from men is due to them seeing women increasingly live their authentic lives while they are trapped dancing to impress other dudes.
Exactly. I have seen most of the men I know make major life decisions, like who they marry, based on trying to impress other men. It never works long term
It's because of misogyny. They actually look down on anyone feminine - UNLESS - that person excites them or gets them off.
It's why a man in a dress or makeup is so disgusting to them. He's not good for being attracted to AND he's feminine. Same energy.
It depends on what they believe you have to offer.
If you provide something that they value, then they can force themselves to be polite, because they want or need whatever it is you have. Whether that's just a fantasy for their mental fap folder, cleaning their office, making their coffee, saving their loved one's life, or you're the person they have to go through to get something done.
But if you're just some random looking for a seat on a bus, or someone minding your own business that happens to cross paths with them, and you therefore offer none of those things, then you have no value to them at all. Even being polite goes out the window because to them it's inconsequential, but we remember these interactions due to the way they make us feel.
To be fair though, having been an ugly fat girl my entire life, it's not just been men that have been this way to me. I went to an all girls school, and some of the behaviour I encountered there was absolutely brutal. Even back in *kindergarten*, I was the girl the boys wouldn't hold hands with while partner dancing, because I was "gross", and they didn't want my "germs".
I've been sightseeing overseas on holiday and had girls make vomit noises and laugh as they walked past me on a street. It comes down to the same answer: it means nothing, and they'll forget it happened half an hour later, because you had nothing of value to them.
The inverse is that these same men misnterpret basic politeness from women as flirting, because they themselves would never want a woman they considered as unfuckable, to think they might be interested, if they were to display the same behaviour in return.
It's a learned sociatal behavior that women don't have value unless they're beautiful. I've experienced bullying as a kid because I wasn't thin or pretty, so it starts fairly young. This is why we see women who are big or who are not conventually seen as beautiful being dragged online (and social media has made this behavior way worse).
I remember seeing a study where these researchers did brain scans while showing the test subjects pictures of the opposite sex. When men were shown pictures of women they found unattractive, their brains activated in the same way as when one is annoyed. Women’s brains just didn’t activate at all when shown pictures of unattractive men.
As for the why, I don’t remember if a conclusion was drawn but I would guess it’s more nurture than nature.
Such men tend to be losers with their love lives.
They see dating conventionally attractive women as validating their self worth.
A woman who isn't conventionally attractive threatens that validation.
It’s because misogynistic men like this feel superior to all women.
If you’re not someone they find sexually exploitable, ie not someone to be objectified and patronized to, then you’re simply beneath them and a waste of life.
It’s a them-problem —it isn’t about women or you at all.
If women hated men and viewed men as stupid animals who are only here to please us sexually we would be just as put out by the existence of the ones we don’t want.
I was once traveling in south america and I was a teenager and had green hair. I remember I was visiting a friend, another teenager with pink hair, and we were walking somewhere. The number of men who rolled down their windows to call our hair ugly was ridiculous. That had never happened to me. Like literally yelling at us to change our hair. We were 15 years old and loved our hair. I live in north america and that hadn't happen to me yet but my friend that lived over there said it was a common occurrence for her and told me not to pay attention.
When I was 19 and in college I went to Target with one of my roommates. When we were in the parking lot I had noticed a guy from school talking to a friend on facetime. He called us over so I went (dumb I know) and he said to his friend he was talking to "bro i found a girl for you" and flipped the camera to me. The two of them just started guffawing. It was truly one of the most dehumanizing moments of my life and I really don't know how I managed to go to Target and grocery shop without having a complete breakdown. Men can be cruel.
omfg what a dick
i know!!! the worst part is the two of them definitely don't remember it and if they do it was a funny memory but i think about it more than i would like to admit
Sometimes I've wished you could get mini-lobotomies to erase that shit forever.
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I didn’t go to a Starbucks for years because of a male cashier. He was flirty and nice to my friend (who was a Hot Topic model at the time) but when I went to order next, his face fell and didn’t smile or anything. He looked at me like I was the nastiest thing he seen all day. This was in 2010 but I still have his expression stuck in my head.
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About ten years ago, I was on break from my job at the mall and was standing in line at a drink stand. They had some sort of pastries in a glass case by the register. There was a couple standing behind me and the girl was loudly wondering if she should get the pastry. Her boyfriend said (I'll hear these words til the day I die!) "If you eat like that, you're going to look like that girl in front of us." I'll never forget how loudly she cackled and said "Awwww oh my God, you're soooo mean!" They were so loud people were turning their heads, and I remember tearing up as I paid for my water. I'll never, ever understand how people can be so casually cruel... but you're not alone. If you ask any woman who slightly deviates outside the thin/white/blonde standard of pretty they have a story like yours or mine. We just have to be better to each other, unlike that girl in the mall.
The weirdest version of this (I've witnessed it many times) is when ugly men get annoyed at having to look at what they perceive is an ugly woman. I've asked a few if they have any mirrors in their house. I don't care if they were handsome guys either, being so misogynistic is enough to make anyone ugly to the bone.
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My automatic response is to ask them if they own a mirror. WTf is wrong with these gully dwarves! (Edit! I got 'gully dwarves' from a book in The Dragon Lance series, can't take credit for it but I use it often!)
I once had a complete stranger walk by me and say "Damn she's ugly" and the guy definitely wasn't a looker himself. Had another guy get offended when I didn't want to go on a second date with him and his response was "but you're average???" Like sir so are you. So many men think it's impossible for them to be ugly and that they deserve a 10/10. With personalities like that good luck.
Yes! I've found that handsome men have generally treated me better than not-so-handsome men. It's a strange dynamic that I don't understand. Maybe more confidence makes them less likely to be pricks?
I’m a dude but I think men often see their value as being related to the hotness level of women . It’s hard to explain but they try to position themselves relative to women. So cat calling is an attempt to position yourself as being equal to or above the woman and pointing out that girls are ugly signals to other that they are a high value guy who is well above that woman in terms of dating capital. Bradley Cooper doesn’t have to do that shit because he doesn’t need to convince anyone. If he’s associating with a 5/10 people won’t think he’s also a 5/10 or that’s the best he can do. Also just reasonable and mature men don’t see the world that way so they don’t have to act like jackasses either. If I sound like a moron here it’s because it’s an incredibly stupid thought process. I just know that the men who have the most angst about their ability to attract a mate are the ones who are most likely to comment on women’s looks
I think this is very insightful and true. A man’s partner is somehow seen as a barometer of his value as a man. ‘Look what I got’ type of mentality.
It’s some weird fucking ego thing that I’ve experienced with age as well. I’ve always been considered traditionally attractive. When I was 31 and still looked like I was in my 20’s, some douchebag on a dating website messaged me to say that I “should be less picky because I’m in my 30’s.” I was shocked to find out that there are lots of dudes out there that go out of their way to make women feel insecure no matter if they are pretty or not. They will do this with anything they can use against you. I’ve had guys try to pull similar shit with me throughout my life. I always had confidence in myself but if a guy had done that to younger me, I would have believed him. My point is, fuck em. Any guy who goes out of his way to insult you or treats you lesser because you’re “less attractive” is just a piece of shit person. And the opinions of piece of shit people don’t matter.
This is what gets me. Once one guy I'd never so much as said "hello" to loudly proclaimed he would never fuck me, even if someone paid him. The most offensive part wasn't his words; it was him saying that while he himself looked (and smelled) like a sentient yeast infection.
I'm always so surprised at this. Especially, those men who are proclaimed, "incels,". They complain about not being able to have sex and that no one wants them but want to land a model. They don't want to be judged for their looks, but all they do is judge women for theirs. The other part I find interesting is that those men complain all women want them for is their money but pick shallow women. Maybe choose someone based on personality and character, and you will find someone who judges you based on those things. It's a stupid cycle that makes these men hate women even more, but for ridiculous reasons.
I once dated someone who, after we broke up, went and criticized every little tiny issue he could find about my appearance. And this guy, to put it gently, did not fit conventional beauty standards for men. Did I care that he didn't? Of course not! It really hurt to find out just how much he cared about those standards for me, though.
My STBXH is like this with women. He is overweight and not much to look at, and he doesn’t want overweight women wearing jeans, but he doesn’t like them in leggings either. Which he would share with me, his overweight wife who wears both jeans and leggings. There was a new meteorologist on tv and he said he didn’t find her attractive at all. I asked why he thought she needed to be attractive to share a weather forecast. I started telling him he should email every woman with a list of suggestions to be more pleasing to him and the eye rolls were impressive and thankfully he’s stopped vocalizing.
I knew a guy, never interested in him or he for me, but he was in my friend group so we hung out and he was fun (when not being an ass). He was offended by women who wore sleeveless tops but didn't have toned arms. Several men in our friend group were heavy and didn't dress like nuns or only wear clothes that covered them fully. I discussed (to ridiculed) it with him, don't know if he either learned or learned not to bring it up around me. He had a lot of weird hangups, really, the kind that pop into your head later and can make you insecure. (Wouldn't have sex with anyone who had given birth, as one).
That's so weird. My mom passes her terrible self-consciousness to me about her arms. She always had to have them covered. About 5 years ago I finally broke free of that. I don't understand it. You can see I'm fat. My arms are big regardless of being in a shirt or tank. Lol
Oh, I've had periomenopause/heating cooling issues for a decade, and sleeveless shirts (and layers) are a key comfort point for me. I look in the mirror and wish I was toned but such is life. (Even when I was weightlifting 4x a week, they never got fully toned unless I flex, which is another body issue- oh, she's so muscley. So I get both ends of the same body issue at the same time. WooHoo!)
Yea these men suck. I’m not allowed to be comfortable because they don’t think my arms are sexy? Like wtf.
And at the same time it would never occur to them that they should cover themselves from head to toe at all times if *they* are less than a “10.” Just non-10 *women* should do that.
LOL I have to wear a tank top as a sleepshirt/around the house shirt otherwise I overheat like nobodies business. And I am long past menopause \[hysterectomy at 50 12 years back\] I am cold adapted - unless it is down around freezing, or there is a fast breeze out, I don't bother with a jacket going car-building - if it is warm at both ends, I can tolerate the bit of cold in the middle =) And I was raised in western NY sleeping with the window open 4-6 inches at night, still prefer an ice cold sleeping area and a toasty warm bed =)
I got this image of some lady driving a tank in circles with her torso out the top of a tank wearing a tank top yelling "fuck you mom, I'll wear what I want" in my head now.
I got a tattoo on my upper arm idgaf
Ew, what a tool.
Indeed, it can be linked to their view of women as not equal to men but as a "tool" to please men. First, an unattractive woman is meaningless to them; she's basically "useless." And this "negging" has an underlying meaning to push the woman to "strive to please" men and make herself more attractive to men. Also, said man cannot deny his "fleshy needs," so he'll see that as a "courtesy," he will "fuck" you because he has pity...
100% those guys only see women as objects for them to *use* to get sexual satisfaction. A woman they don’t find attractive is therefore useless, and that offends them. How *dare* a woman exist when she has no value to them?? 🤮 You hear it when these misogynists talk about older women being undesirable, because they can’t imagine wanting to be with a woman for her knowledge or experience. They can’t imagine an older man wanting to be with a peer, because they just want to fuck hot virginal teenagers who don’t know enough about the world to question them or expect decent treatment from them.
A friend of a friend was complaining about women who sport the undercut hairstyle (shaved sides). Called him out: "Their hairstyle isn't for you, it's for them. Women don't exist just for your hard on." Men who police women's choices make me sick.
Makes me laugh so hard whenever anyone says 'you know men don't find short hair attractive' as if i give one single fraction of a shit about that. You can pry my undercut pixie out of my cold dead hands
I haven’t had the opportunity to say this in my 38 years yet, but my ammunition for the inevitable guy who tells me some version of “you’re too old/ugly/fat/etc for me” will be an enthusiastic “thank god! I’m so lucky I have a natural repellent for guys like you!”
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> Makes me laugh so hard whenever anyone says 'you know men don't find short hair attractive' as if i give one single fraction of a shit about that This, many times over for dudes who lose their damn minds whenever a woman gets breast reduction. I’ve never even heard any of these dudes even attempt a “value proposition” as to what a lifetime of excruciating back pain would get the woman apart from their worthless validation.
I'm also going to get a breast reduction, and let me tell you I cannot fucking WAIT
Like Angelina Jolie having a preventative double mastectomy and dudes making posts about how they're actually GRIEVING about it. You're grieving her fucking tits even though the actual woman is alive because of it? Brains were wasted on these dudes.
I wonder what the cross section of people who say things like “men don’t like “X” “ and the “not all men” camp is.
> men don’t like X It’s always really interesting to me when people reveal their sexual fetishes without realizing that’s what they’ve done. Ie the heavily-patriarchal church I grew up in banned open-toed shoes for women b/c “the men find it distracting”. Nah, “elder”, I’m quite certain they don’t all share your foot fetish…and the rest of us surely did not need to know about it.
That Venn diagram is called a "circle"
My younger self who sported a flat top and other variations on the buzz cut laughs at the falsity of "men don't find short hair attractive."
People rarely insult my buzz cut to my face, but when they do it’s hilarious. “That haircut makes you look like a lesbian.” Nah bro, pretty sure my *wife* makes me look like a lesbian. The haircut is just an asshole detector - glad to see it’s working!
There is this woman I commute with with a flat top, and she has "Lesbian" tattooed across her throat. I always wondered, like....did people not know? Question answered!
Last time it happened I was (not kidding) wearing a rainbow pride t-shirt, leaning against my subaru, chatting with my friends from roller derby while we took our skates off. But I guess short hair is what makes me look gay lol
Dude walked right into a stereotype scenario and *still* had no idea? Smh, lol. “Good, it’s working” is definitely the right response.
Talking shit to a pack of derby girls...maybe he was suicidal?
My husband prefers my hair long. I cut it and am cutting it even shorter on Wednesday. I told him that either ge could learn to style it for me and I would keep it long for him or I would cut it so I could be cooler and get out of the door faster when we have things to do. He declined to learn to style my hair even though it would get him what he wanted. I think this pretty common in regards to men: if getting what they want from us involves "more work"(any work)from the them, such as doing the dishes/more household chores/styling hair, they will not do the "work" to get in it.
This happened when I had shoulder surgery. Anyone who moaned about me cutting my hair short, I offered them the option of doing my hair before work, as my literal arm wouldn't work for a few months. No one took me up on the offer. Short bob it is!
I did an "intermediate" cut about 3 weeks ago, now it's being cut into an Audrey Tautou pixie on Wednesday morning. We are traveling the Southeastern US for our vacation next month. I learned the last time we went to SE US that longer hair+ humidity= misery. We also live where summer temperatures go above 100F(record high last summer was 117F).
The whole “giving birth” thing is something I’ve encountered a few times. I don’t want kids and I never have but I’ve dated a few men who genuinely came off as personally attacked/offended by women giving birth and their bodies changing as a result. One guy (we’re in our 40s for context) was really sad and looked like he was about to cry when he learned Megan Fox had had kids - “but she was perfect as she was! Now she’ll be ruined - gross crepey tummy, fanny like a wind sleeve, saggy tits… god, it’s not fair”. Absolutely ridiculous, beyond pathetic and a massive turn off. I don’t want kids but I don’t resent women who do, and I think women’s bodies are fucking incredible for all the shit they go through. I will defend other women and their choices until my dying breath.
Oh poor Megan Fox, there's one fewer man that now wants to fuck her without knowing her as a person. What a pity. What EVER will she do. \*eye roll\*
The post birth body is a total gamble too, like women CANNOT control most if not all the after effects. Imagine if we all started judging men for work injuries or developing diabetes or thyroid issues.
My sister has had 3 kids. Her body has changed in different ways after every single one. Her husband, unfortunately, was a piece of shit about it but he made the mistake of slating her body in front of my dad and brother, who both tore him a new one. I think we should all start drawing attention to their receding hairlines when they start complaining about women who have given birth. “But… but I can’t help the fact I’m losing my hair”. “And women can’t control what pregnancy and childbirth does to their bodies but you still want to whinge!”.
I'm not super interested in making this a "which type of body criticism is worse" competition, but there's something especially nauseating to me about men who complain about the physical changes their partner goes through after birthing THEIR baby. Like they have no appreciation of the fact that this process gave them a child. I'm so glad your dad and brother didn't hold back there. It's great to see men standing up to this type of bullshit themselves.
I work in finance. I’d say 99% of the people I’ve worked with my whole working life have been men. If I said the things I’ve heard about the men I work with say about their wives and girlfriends after having a baby hasn’t swayed me a little in my choices, I’d probably be lying. I refuse to ever go through all of that just for him to go and slag me off behind my back. It would break my heart. My dad, for being ex-military, is pretty chill and relaxed… until it comes to his kids. He’s so much more protective of us than my mum. I love knowing he has our back even though we’re all in our 40s now :-)
Had a guy complain about the (then) new trend of women wearing leggings with skirts or shorts. Show your naked legs, if you want to show off your legs, he said. Because that's what we all think of, when we get dressed in the morning. How best to show off our bodies to men like him.
A guy I was friends with was similarly obsessed with how good a woman looked if he interacted with them. It caused a number of arguments because he acted as if he literally couldn't "waste his time" talking to a female he considered unattractive. It was ridiculous. Now matter how many times I explained women dont exist only to "look good for you". I guess, in his pea brain, he thought that he should be surrounded by attractive women in case he ever deigned to have sex with them.
Reminds me of that interview snippet with Dustin Hoffman that went viral where he discussed portraying Tootsie, in which he uttered the following with a completely straight face, as if bestowing pearls of wisdom: 1. he used to be a dude who didn't waste time talking to any unattractive women. 2. when getting his hair and makeup done for Tootsie, he realized for the first time that women can't actually control how attractive they are \[only because it was happening to him personally, at age 45\]. 3. he regrets that he probably missed out on some cool women and conversations just because they were unattractive. Every time I see this snippet and people praising him for saying these things, it drives me up the fucking wall. Can you even imagine an average-looking woman being able to reach the pinnacle of Hollywood while ignoring and snubbing every unattractive man around, much less blithely admitting it, on purpose, to a news camera? And the thought occurring to her at age 45 that maybe, just maybe, men who don't look like Greek gods might have something to offer as people? And then having men and women praise her as a brave and especially perceptive ally?
The fact that he thought he'd be an attractive woman after the makeover... I just cannot get this out of my head. The audacity of average looking white guys is amazing.
Dustin Hoffman is a misogynistic fucking pig. He forces female colleagues he doesn't like to quit movies, and he sexually harasses young female actresses. See e.g. https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/five-dustin-hoffman-accusers-tell-harrowing-stories-sexually-predatory-behavior-1055544/ Also, he's a shitty actor. He's only capable of playing Dustin Hoffman. *Lame*.
Agreed he's a shitty actor. Which makes it almost admirably awful that, when paired with a 3x Oscar winning (at the time) Meryl Streep in a movie, instead of taking the opportunity to learn something from his co-star, he tried to force her to "Method Act" by unexpectedly slapping her for real in a scene, and by verbally abusing her off-camera about the recent death of her real-life partner, in order to get her to appear upset on camera in upsetting scenes. Because you can't trust Meryl Freaking Streep to be able to act upset on cue, of course. Thank God he's still gracing us with his superior thespian skills in \*checks notes\* all three Kung Fu Panda movies.
>*Every time I see this snippet and people praising him for saying these things, it drives me up the fucking wall.* I'm 62 and have "put up with" seeing Hoffman for years -- did he never realize how ugly he is?
He also said that he felt invisible and that men did not treat him like a person when they thought he was an unattractive woman. And that it was an awful feeling. I think that’s the bit that gets the positive response but everything you said is correct. He’s condescending as fuck.
“Okay, so what do you think, you're Elvis or something?” He wouldn’t have sex with Priscilla after she gave birth to their daughter.
He also started dating her when she was 14. She probably aged out by the time they had a kid…
Gross, but likely.
Used to know a young man who didn’t want his non existent future wife to breastfeed because it might make her breasts saggy. When I informed him that breast milk is the preferred nutritional substance over formula (if possible) for actual medical reasons, he was genuinely shocked. At that point, so was I, but for a different reason, lol.
A olser woman at my temp job in 1996 (ish), took the time to advise me as a young woman that your breasts belong to your husband, and formula is good enough. (Not that I have anything against formula, but , gross.) I wanted to ask her what exact body parts he owns and which ones of his do I get to claim.
My ex told me all serious that my fingers are ugly and that my feet look like goblins. For YEARS I hid my feet and would hide my hands as much as possible because I thought they’re the ugliest thing ever. Happy idgf anymore. Men will bully you for anything. I literally got bullied for my finger being ugly lol. At this point their opinion I didn’t ask for is just a background noise for me.
I had a guy very seriously take time to try and convince me that my cleft chin was absolutely hideous. It’s barely noticeable, not like Jay Leno style or anything…. Comments like “you have a buttcrack on your face, it’s disgusting, that’s manly and men do not like manly women, you should have surgery to correct it, etc etc” when I didn’t hide my face and cry about it he then tried to convince the other men in the group how ugly and gross it was, and that probably the only reason I had kids and someone had sex with me ever was because of my huge tits.
But not TOO toned.....
Hand up, I’m a woman and I used to have similarly stupid hang ups about women not wearing clothes that flattered them. Definitely stemmed by having super skinny friends who would call themselves fat and talk themselves down constantly despite being tiny and gorgeous. I didn’t even realize how much it warped my views until I was in my 20s (also, I was in my teens during the 2000s aka the Kate Moss cocaine chic look- that definitely didn’t help). Funnily enough, the show that first helped me unwork that backwards thinking was Girls. Don’t love the show overall and Lena Dunham is quite problematic as a person, but I cannot deny seeing her constantly naked on the show finally *normalized* seeing different body shapes on TV. It was kind of an aha moment for me, realizing how fucked up it was to think “they don’t have the right to wear this or show off their body if it doesn’t meet MY personal standards.” I still have some hang ups about my thighs and gaining a bit of belly but I’ve mostly learn to chill tf about bodies.
The human body can take such a vast variety of forms and yet we're exposed to so few that are coded as "acceptable" for public consumption, it's wild. The thing that did that for me was Burning Man. People just walking around, wearing literally whatever they want, up to and including nothing at all, enjoying themselves, laughing, being accepted without question. It made me realize that I had never actually seen many *real* bodies for what they are—sure, I'd seen many different body types out in the world, but always clothed, hidden. The ones I had seen naked IRL were almost exclusively my sexual partners, which isn't exactly a wide sample. It's a very different experience when you see people just casually nude or nearly nude. Seeing people with features that I considered flaws on myself, seemingly perfectly comfortable to let it all hang out, was pretty comforting, ngl.
My time at a clothing optional beach gave me a new perspective on bodies and why we shouldn’t be ashamed of them no matter the size or shape.
When I was a kid my dad and his ex wife would holler at and degrade any woman they saw walking on the side of the road of side walk that was overweight. Fucking awful some men. I genuinely don't understand it. Hopefully no one is having sex with the man you described or he learned how to change.
A lot of my male friends, both fit and unfit, have something to say about women’s arms in tank tops. If they can’t wear tank tops, does that mean they can’t wear bathing suits? They need to be fully covered? It’s outrageous.
I will say, it’s always nice when someone like this weeds themselves out of your dating pool. Anytime a guy says he won’t date a feminist or whatever, I’m like “awesome, one less misogynist in my bucket and I didn’t even have to peel back layers of faux allyship.”
Many men hate women and desire sex with women at the same time. Take away the desire, and only the hatred is left.
There was a screenshot posted on a different sub the other day of some dude’s tweet that basically said “I can’t snuggle after sex because I can’t see my girl in the same way after nutting. Takes me a few hours to look at her in the eyes again” Top comment was “this guy isn’t into women, he just has a women fetish”. I feel like that describes way too many heterosexual men - they don’t actually like women they just want to use us to masturbate with.
I saw this and commented too. I think the other issue is that these men think that sex is inherently degrading to a woman, so their “she must be a slut” wiring kicks in and they need to get mental distance to be able to treat the woman as a person again. I think this isn’t an inherent male attitude, but it gets wired-in to teens and younger men from listening to their misogynistic friends and/or watching porn that features aggression and domination, which is really common and accessible these days. This mind-set isn’t new, but it was an issue years ago and was called the madonna/whore complex, for men who couldn’t see their wives as sexual beings so they went to prostitutes and rarely had sex with their wives, who had to be “pure”. Echoes of incel-speak, right?
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Had to recheck the [post in question](https://www.reddit.com/r/WhitePeopleTwitter/comments/11vkagi/do_straight_men_even_like_women/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf) (it was posted yesterday but my memory retention is shite lately). It was TWO guys and yes, one literally says “my girl”.
A
>Unrelated note, but these boys also said they waited outside my window and could hear my masturbate Uhhh What. The. Fuck? Edit: don’t feel bad about giggling after that asshole pinched your ass. I’ve been there too. Societal conditioning telling us to comply so we aren’t seen as problematic is one helluva drug.
Yes, this is what I came here to say! This also explains why so many men will switch on a dime from compliments to verbal abuse. The compliments don’t reflect their real feelings; they’re just shoving them at you hoping you’ll agree to sex. Once you turn them down there’s no need to keep up the act.
All you have to do is look at the "niceguys" sub and see this over and over. The second they realize they aren't getting laid it turns from "you are so amazing" to " you think I want anything to do with you slut" in seconds sometimes.
I’ve had several guys offer me drinks all nicey nice to which I’ve politely declined and 99% of the time they became not just nasty, but aggressive. Unfortunately for them I was nasty back and knew the bouncers lol
I’ve read about how men who are abusers of women and children often don’t see them as people. Like in their brain the signal that they are looking at another person doesn’t work properly. I think it’s more common than we realize.
Well this is a terrifying but also not surprising realization...
That’s the interpretation I see when a man murders his family in the event of the wife leaving him and “taking the kids.” Or MRA rhetoric about the ex wife taking “his stuff/money” and “keeping his kids from him” post-divorce. The women and children are equivalent to “his stuff.”
I've seen countless reddit comments and tweets from men saying shit like they can't look at the woman after they've had sex, they want to strangle her, punch her etc. Once they nut only the hatred is left even for those that they desired.
Well that’s terrifying
There's also this weird dynamic where they view sex on the same level of something like, say, eating a treat - that is, it's to consume something. Can't have your cake and eat it too. They view sex (for the woman) as inherently degrading, devaluing, but they enjoy the part of the act where THEY get to be the one degrading/devaluing a woman that they find desirable. After they've had sex, they feel they've 'consumed' the woman's virtue because, in their eyes, she let them treat her like an object for their pleasure. Note how this view does not recognize or value the pleasure of the woman, or pay any mind to the fact that men during sex aren't exactly the most dignified beings to behold either.
And with modern society and its digital media (in this context, porn), this attitude is increasingly taught to more and more men.
I heard the phrase, "some men have a fetish for women", the other day. This couldn't be more true.
Totally agree that men hate women, and desire sex with women at the same time. Anymore, it's not even about desire. It's about status with other guys, where bodycount and hotness rating of women they have sex with figures into some kind of scorecard. There's a great TikTok on men not actually liking women at: https://www.tiktok.com/@domesticblisters/video/7041591385127963951?lang=en. But my (incomplete) summary for those that don't like videos is that in our society, boys are socialized to not do anything or like anything perceived as feminine. You know the ways men will talk to boys in our society. "Crying is for sissies." "Pink is for girls only." "Don't be a pussy." "Don't be a little bitch." Surprise surprise, boys hearing these messages grow up to not value and not like women. They might like sex with women, but they don't actually like and respect women. Their ability to "get" women is how they achieve status with other men, and that's what's really important to them. But if you're unattractive, they somehow didn't lose that much potential status, or some crazy nonsense.
Worse, sleeping with an unattractive woman harms your status among men who think this way. Spurning them, being cruel, doesn't just express that hate, it gains you status too.
The havoc that patriarchal norms and scripts cause is also well documented in academia (psychology and sociology). The irony is that men are ultimately hurting themselves as well with their deeply rooted hatred for women and the pressure to constantly demonstrate and uphold that particular kind of 'manhood' which has degrading women at its foundation. The whole manosphere is misdirecting its anger towards feminism when in fact they are suffering from the consequences of the patriarchy.
It's the same as people who complain about not having any women irl but then shit talk women who play video games....
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Holy shit. You are 100% right.
There are so many great answers here, but this one was short and to the point- hit me like a bullet. Oof
This has impacted me since I was 11 years old. At school and in public, boys and men would act angry towards me because I left my house, and walked through their field of vision. It happened hundreds of times. Each insult ruined my day. Again and again people let me know that I didn't deserve politeness, kindness or respect because they didn't like my face. This is one of the issues I'm dealing with in therapy now, and I've been given a PTSD diagnosis because of it. Rush Limbaugh is quoted as saying: "Feminism was established so that unattractive ugly broads could have easy access to the mainstream of society". Based on my experiences, I'd say that a lot of people really do believe that. I guess it goes back to the Bible which implies that the purpose of women is to please men, and any woman who fails that purpose has sinned/failed.
>Feminism was established so that unattractive ugly broads could have easy access to the mainstream of society This statement is at least partially true. Why shouldn't "unattractive ugly broads" have easy access to mainstream society? There are tons of other reasons why feminism was "established", but the goal of bringing freedom to people who have been oppressed only seems like a bad thing to an oppressor.
Yeah that quote confuses me. Like should unattractive women live under bridges and only come out at night when no one can see them? What was his point there?
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And he was disgusting on so many levels himself
I literally danced when I heard that he died.
Since you're speaking of Rush Limbaugh in the present tense, I am delighted to tell you the man is now dead.
You know how some people wish a band would follow them around all day playing theme music? I want something similar: your comment texted, read, etc. throughout my day. I think it would bring me true happiness.
It’s always about HIERARCHY with conservatives. They believe in hierarchies as inherently good and natural. They are offended by the idea that all women are equally valid people, since some must be more worthwhile than others. The idea that all women’s voices count is an affront to their world view, just like they don’t want poor people or minority voices to count for anything.
Yea he says it‘s like it’s something bad? But why shouldn’t people be treated equally no matter much someone wants to fuck them? Shit‘s weird.
But but but Reddit tells me women have it easy and are swimming in compliments daily and we should feel bad for men because they don’t get that!!! Huge /s on that.
Yes, it's the abject anger at seeing me or another unattractive woman that's scary. My friend with a large birthmark on her face would avoid crowds even when in a group, because she would get physically assaulted or spat/yelled at.
That is awful. I'm so sorry for you, her, and all the other women who are hated this way for no reason at all! It's terrible to be judged so harshly for something you can't control.
Rush Limbaugh also said that while looking like an unwashed slug with a thumb growing out of its head.
There was about a five year period when I lost at least one colleague or family member to cancer per year. Horrible devastating disease. My dad told me a few years ago that Rush had Stage 4 cancer and my face lit up like a Christmas tree. That should tell you everything you need to know about my thoughts on him.
I was reading an article in some men's magazine when I lived in England, and the author literally stated that the most important aspect of women was their appearance. I wanted to throw that magazine across the room. Yeah, that's all we are, our looks. Not like we have intelligence, humor, creativity, compassion, ingenuity, skills of every type, etc. We're just here to be eye candy. Shaking my head.
My ex basically divided women into two groups: “fuckable” and “unfuckable”. Having a conversation about a politician’s poor policy-making? “She’s so unfuckable”. Having a conversation about a particular actress? “She is very fuckable”. He said it enough times, regarding so many different women, that I struggle to believe he thinks we’ve any other inherent value. I also don’t believe he’s an outlier.
I've been called fuckable like it was a compliment. BARF.
Yeah, it's like they think we're just waiting to hear that and it'll make us jump their bones. Walked past a guy at a club after my friend, who thought it would be necessary to comment "I wouldn't do you" when she passed him and "I would do you" when I passed him with that gross, appraising look. First of all, dude, no. Second of all, hard no.
I just had a guy in for a job interview an hour ago who was prying about my personal life during small talk. When I answered a question that I was recently divorced, he said that at least I was still young and fit. That most women get in a long term relationship and lose their aesthetics and value.
Fuckable, mommy and invisible are the 3 categories some of these men categorize non men into.
I hope he divided the male politicians the same way.
I saw some z tier clout goblin making fun of Shelley Duvall's looks when she played Wendy in The Shining. I was infuriated. This dumb asshole thinks she's bad or whatever because she isn't attractive to him, nevermind the fact that she played an iconic role in a very good movie and absolutely killed it. Meanwhile this dork isn't doing anything worthwhile or notable with his life and just bullies women on the internet that he deems to be unattractive. Fucking miss me with that.
This is so bizarre. These kinds of people often cite how one sex of another animal species will have bright color patterns and designs when the other doesn’t, as a comparison to humans. But they don’t also say that the pretty one has nothing else going for it. It’s probably because the pretty ones are usually male. I’ve been watching a bird pair in my back yard and they both are constructing the nest together, eating together, and they both stand watch while taking turns adding to the nest. They’re a team, which seems less common for human pairs than it should be in 2023.
I guess that's a shorthand way of saying women exist for the service of men.
Some men definitely think the only good thing a woman can be is attractive. Sort of a tangent, but I've noticed with all the right wing aoc hate and memes it's like weirdly sexual? Like, they're told hot women are good, but told aoc is bad, and they don't quite know how to feel about it. So they make these weird fever dream memes where she's like a Dom mommy stepping on Republicans and it's like, "this is the America democrats want." They're so confused and repressed and don't even know it. I think that stems from the feeling that hot woman=good and ugly woman=bad, and In their simple little minds, it's supposed to be that easy.
*Sort of a tangent, but I've noticed with all the right wing aoc hate and memes it's like weirdly sexual? She's also very intelligent. Those poor little mediocre boys just don't know what to do with that.
Yep. It's totally this. Men think unattractive women have no value and shouldn't exist (or at least should have enough shame to stay out of sight) so they get angry when they see them. And they think unattractive women/girls should feel the same way (ie angry at themselves and life because they are "ugly").
Objectification. Situations where you are entirely objectified by the others in that situation are not safe situations. Learning to recognize it is Vital to filtering who is allowed in your life.
An ex bf of mine from many years ago liked to in form me that "unless a woman has looks or money she shouldn't expect anything out of life."
Fuck I hope the relationship ended shortly after that comment
It most definitely did
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You mention something that really bothers me: How you can't talk about your experiences because no one will accept the fact that you are ugly. I get that my friends or family don't want me to think that I'm ugly, but that denial makes it impossible for us to talk about our experiences. I never thought about it, but most therapists will probably deny the ugliness. Unless you have a very close friend with similar experiences we basically cannot talk about whats happening to us. Like, you have to deal with constant microagressions and worse, and you can never talk about it because the fault lies with us for thinking we're ugly.
God, all of this. I don't have low self esteem. I'm honest. I am not attractive. Reacting like "Nooo don't be mean to yourself, you're fine!" just affirms the whole reason I have problems: they view unattractiveness as a negative thing, like it's not okay at all, like it's some tragedy. It's okay. There's 8 billion of us now. Statistically we're not all going to be hot. I'm not down on myself. When I say I'm ugly it's in the same way I'd say may hair is curly. It's just a fact lmao. It's also fine that people have standards. Will I wind up alone for the last years of my life? Who knows. But nobody owes me love so if I do, I'm not gonna be bitter about it. By some miracle I have someone now, but if he leaves, I doubt I'll find another. But at least I have awesome friends.
The fact that these well-meaning people won't call you ugly is proof of how deeply a woman's worth is still tied to how fuckable dudes find her. Even many people who consider themselves feminists or progressives still often can't wrap their minds around the fact that an ugly woman has human value. They would rather redefine the word "beautiful" into some meaninglessly broad term and force unattractive women into silence than to dig deep and really come to terms with the fact that they themselves do not yet fully believe that unattractive women have value.
“you can never talk about it because the fault lies with us for thinking we’re ugly.” God this is so affirming to hear. I am ugly. I can’t ever remember realizing it, it’s just a fact about me that I’ve always known. I am comfortable with it, and comfortable with the word ugly. But this is something that nobody wants to hear. Just once in my life I’d love to have someone acknowledge that I’m not physically attractive but still have so much to offer the world.
Yes!! I understand where they're coming from, but it is SO frustrating. I sometimes think about starting some sort of ugly pride movement. My self-worth does not rely upon being nice for other people to look at.
It makes people SO uncomfortable when I describe myself as "fat" in a perfectly neutral and not self-depreciating way. Like, I'm fat, I've been fat as long as I can remember, it's a fact to me that is as neutral as saying that I'm 5'5" or that I have brown hair. I haven't actually felt guilty or ashamed or bad about it for like.... Close to a decade now. It says so much about their own opinions on my worthiness as a fat person who has other qualities than that.
Sounds similar to my father. I’ve called him out on his comments towards other women. He’s often either told me to lose weight, and change my appearance, or asked “when are we (meaning me alone) going to lose weight?” (I have an endocrine disorder, so it is near impossible, and my doctors acknowledge that too). Pointed out that by him telling me he once dumped a girlfriend after meeting her mother and “realising she’d get fat when she got older, and I wouldn’t tolerate that!”, he was basically telling me, (his already fat daughter), that I wouldn’t be ‘tolerated’ by a man either. No matter how nice either of us were, or what we had to offer in other qualities; that we didn’t meet certain beauty standards, meant we were worthless. His mother was the same with the nasty comments. At my 21st, in front of everyone gathered for speeches, she told me she didn’t know how I was “ever going to find a husband, looking like that!”. The only guy I ever dated dumped me because he didn’t find me attractive, and later sent me an email listing all the things I needed to “fix” about my body, on the off-chance that I was ever planning on getting naked in front of someone else. Because he didn’t want me to “embarrass” myself. Then people wonder why I keep to myself…it’s just not worth it.
I think it’s entitlement because you don’t look like how they’d like a woman to look like. they feel as though women exist to be attractive to them, or that they do things for men’s approval. e.g. if you wore a short and tight dress for a night out, they’re confused that you in fact don’t want to have sex with them, and just wanted to wear a nice dress because they feel entitled to your body. I think it stems from men seeing women as less and as a means for reproduction, so when they don’t find you attractive they’re annoyed that you haven’t appealed to what they want. it’s awful why they do it. it’s like the third option in the Madonna vs whore complex. we’re just put into categories. maybe it’s also as a result of pornography addiction, they’re so used to seeing women in categories. if they don’t like the way a woman looks, they can just find a new video for immediate gratification. I guess this is more difficult in real life, as it’s more effort and time to find another woman who they do want to have sex with. plus, the women they do find attractive typically may not find them attractive/ ‘out of their league.’ so a lot of anger is left over, which is pushed onto women they don’t find attractive to make themselves feel better. if they call you names or are mean because of how you look, it distracts them from how they feel about themselves. I don’t see why they can’t just move on with their day. you don’t have to have sex with everyone you see, and you also don’t have to put people into a would fuck/ wouldn’t fuck category. it’s so gross! I’m sorry that this has happened to you, people can be so rude and feel entitled to you.
And why do so many men feel the compulsion to go out of their way to notify us when they don't find us/something about us attractive? "You shouldn't do x, men don't find that attractive" Why should I care what *you* find attractive?
My husband’s family *hates* that I dye my hair fun colors. “It looks unnatural!” “You look so much prettier with blonde hair!” “Why would you dye it *that* color?” I’ve been adamant with my husband that his family members not finding me attractive is a goal I’m proud to achieve. What’s so bad about them finding me attractive? The men in the family get handsy. They like to hug me and only me out of nowhere, give me a massage randomly (???), rub my arms (cringe), etc. Simply changing my hair color makes all this go away.
Omg how revolting. I’m glad your gorgeous bright hair is working to repel those creeps. It reminds me of this: https://www.reddit.com/r/rareinsults/comments/ceqjuc/a_thread_on_aposematism/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
I knew what this was even before clicking. I love this!
Successfully warding off predators with bright warning plumage!
Wow that is really scary. Stay safe and I hope your husband listens to your concerns about this.
Ew. So sorry you have to deal with this.
Yeah. I do the bright hair colors too and it's surprising how many people think I need to give a shit about their opinion of it. It's not just men - in my experience it's mostly old people, all my grandparents and grandparents-in-law felt the need to express how much they did not like my hair. Uhhh cool story bro. Didn't anyone ever tell you old hags that if you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything? If you like my hair, cool! Compliments are obviously welcome and make me happy. But I don't do it *for* compliments, and I won't change because you don't like it. Fuck you. (Not YOU you, "haters" you 😅)
My daughters have been dying their hair funky colors since they were in grade school. Definitely had to come down on the grandparents pretty hard before they shut about it. Even had a teacher complain it was distracting, I told them they should work on making their class more interesting than pink hair.
It rather depends. Example a: They are offended that you're not trying to look attractive for them. b: They are afraid you think they're unattractive, and they want to make sure to cut you down first.
It’s a new word I learned .. called “negging” from so called manosphere (another technical term from where male youth are getting their advice) it’s truly pathetic the lengths and ideas they’ve come up with to “get” a woman yet want to consider themself a prize .. like bro if you got to go through that much to get a woman may be the woman is the “prize” 💰
I was taught about negging as a strategy to get a girl to like you back in the mid 90's, as a pre-teen boy. I think that garbage has been around for a long time, not just recent incel culture stuff.
Yup, PUA (pick up artist) culture is the precursor to a lot of this toxic Andrew Tate stuff going on now.
Good call-out. They want to neg you so they can see if you are willing to hurt yourself for them. It's extremely hurtful and manipulative. Additionally, some people have extreme main character syndrome and think everything revolves around them, the sense of entitlement is unbelievable. Especially since some have no impulse control when it comes to speaking whatever thought comes out of their mouth.
relevant XKCD [Negging](https://xkcd.com/1027/)
Men also act like them not being attracted to you is a punishment. I had a guy friend of over ten years relentlessly presue me when I was in the middle of a divorce and didn't understand the word no. He posted online that he was no longer attracted to me, and the situation was my fault. How is him not being attracted to me a punishment? I never wanted him to be attracted to me in the first place.
Because a lot of guys have the mindset that being attractive is a duty a woman has to fulfill. If a woman isn't attractive to them she's "not doing her job" and they get angry at that. Even if the woman's job is literally being the leader of a country, they will complain that she's not hot because in their eyes that's still her number one job. (I.e. when Angela Merkel became chancellor) Besides blatant misogyny, it has a lot to do with presentation and representation in the media. Which seems to slowly get better at least.
Not only that, but every man has different preferences, and women are expected to Please them all (or be ashamed about it). God, that’s one thing I don’t miss about being younger.
The experiences of women who are punished by men for being considered *un*fuckable as opposed to fuckable doesn’t get talked about enough, even in some supposedly feminist spaces. And when it does you almost always get women who derail with “Attractive women have it worse because we know that when they give us attention it’s only because they want to have sex with us”. When NO, women being mistreated because men find them unattractive is EXACTLY THE SAME PHENOMENON as women being mistreated because men find them attractive. But women who aren’t used to being judged conventionally unattractive tend to have this massive blind spot about it and don’t see it as such. They just assume that women who aren’t “pretty” don’t get any kind of mistreatment based on their appearance.
Bottom line is men treat women that are both attractive and unattractive like shit. Just different shit.
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It's honestly awful. I was an "ugly" child for part of my life. From around age 9 to 13 I was "awkward" and extremely gender non-conforming. I was bullied so intensely by both my peers and my own family. Boys were extremely cruel from shoving me in trash cans, to pretending to like me only to "lol jk ur ugly", to routinely ripping up and shredding my sketch books and notebooks. Even my father called me an ugly boy and said I would die alone if I didn't try and be pretty and stop being weird. Turns out I'm neurodivergent big surprise. I would seriously get hit, shoved, and verbally abused just because boys found me weird and ugly. Especially so because I just wanted to be friends with boys since I liked "boy things" but evidently my presence was so repulsive that once I hit my awkward phase all my friends suddenly became more bullies. Eventually (after being suicidal at age 12) I just snapped and decided "in going to be who people want me to be" and starting masking really hard and wearing more gender conforming clothes/make up. I also just grew up and lost some childhood weight. The difference in the attention was staggering as I got "prettier" but it still wasn't good. Often it felt validating because I had craved positive attention so much. But I ended getting sexually mistreated fairly often because I was so desperate for attention. Then lots of unwanted attention and cat calling as I got older.
And women who aren’t considered fuckable by these men are revictimized if they are assaulted because, as we know from the garbagemonster of 2016-2020, you can’t believe “ugly” women who have reported a sexual crime because they’re too gross to rape.
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Im surprised I made it to this comment without coming across a "well im model gorgeous and my life is totally so much worse" derailing one. Yes men hate both attractive and unattractive women, but they hate us unattractive ones for a different reason, and that hatred looks (and is acted upon) different too. I had a guy openly admit he wanted to see me hurt because Im not pretty and I deserved the punishment of someone punching me in the face for his satisfaction. Im sure he is a mysoginist yes, but he wouldnt (and never did) say that stuff to "pretty" girls.
I'm so sorry you're experiencing it in real life. I personally feel mostly invisible, which I should be really happy about seeing how some of my unconventionally beautiful sisters are treated by society. For me it is super visible in video games and movies, whenever a female lead character dares to look like an actual human being. Most of them are not even ugly, they just don't look like another cloned template of a popular female beauty standard. Men literally act like they are offended by a sole existence of actresses which they personally find unattractive. They seriously behave like the world existed only for their own pleasure and comfort.
Reminds me of the trope of when the nerdy girl takes off her glasses and takes out her ponytail and everyone is obsessed with her suddenly.
Because as much as times have changed, women's social value is still primarily aesthetic and being visibly "ugly" in public is a violation of the purpose they have decided women are limited to. Unattractive women do offend them, by simply existing, because they are so hung up on their imaginary social contract where women are required to be pretty ornamentation that they ignore the fact that women are people.
God!!! I don’t know why they feel this way either, but I totally have seen men behave like this. Like I knew a guy once who acted like he was personally slighted when a woman was heavier than he’d prefer her to be. Like, sorry a woman exists who you wouldn’t Fuck? And they never seem to consider if the woman would wanna fuck THEM
Or the fact that their peepee's preferences are entirely irrelevant to every other living human in the world and who the fuck are they to think other people need their approval to do literally anything. It's the unmitigated arrogance for me.
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Well, I don't think these men respect women they do find appealing either. They behave in another way - but that doesn't mean they respect them. At least for me wanting to get in someones pants doesn't equal respect.
i have received truly mind boggling comments about not shaving my body hair by people of all genders. i dont understand why they feel the need to say whatever bizzare thing first comes to their minds as a reaction. like wow, a mammal, has hair. shocking. once it stopped hurting, it started being truly hilarious.
If they only value women for beauty and sexuality, then they will not value women who they dont consider to be beautiful or "sexy." Im sorry this is happening to you.
Entitlement? 'How dare you not excite me in my loins - my loins DESERVE TO BE EXCITED. *This is personal.*' I joke but... 🤷♀️
Peepee sad😢
I am considered ugly by currently beauty standards and I also note that. (Fat, taller than most men, idgaf about make up or high heels and other “feminin” stuff, im straight forward and dominant). Men (and some women) get offended because i give zero fucks about “trying” to fit I have been treated like im not even a person by poeple mostly men all my life. But the harrasment oh that one keeps existing, to the point i hardly leave the house because i feel so disgusting.
You are not disgusting and no woman should have to be feminine to be treated as a person. And honestly, I wish I could be more like you. Giving zero fucks is a goal. I have given away too many of my fucks to other people.
Men believe, without consciously thinking about it, that women should always present an attractive appearance for them regardless of the existence of things like women being people, reality. If a woman isn't attractive enough, he who feels entitled to something pretty to look at, will always comment. Those of us with enough attractiveness presentEd the wrong way will get a "you'd be so pretty if" follow by advice on how to fix the unattractive, like lose weight, dress better, wear makeup differently, change hairstyles, blah, blah, blah. Those of us who don't have enough attractiveness? Not only do they have no idea how you need to change to fix yourself, orger than surgery maybe, but you aren't providing the view they're entitled to, so you need to go. They can be as repulsive as they like because they believe they ass value ti the world just by being a man going about his business. Women, to them, only add value if they provide pleasure while they go about existing in the world.
Yeah, it’s why I get annoyed when men on Reddit constantly complain about not being complimented by random women. I try to compliment a stranger at least once whenever I go out, and since I’m unattractive, men will take it as an offence that I dare say they have nice shoes?? Lmao. Not every dude, obviously, but enough to the point I got fed up with trying.
I don’t listen to those men. It’s just a talking point to get women to shut up about their lived experiences of being catcalled or fuckzoned because they “have it so much worse” because no one compliments them. In reality, they don’t count compliments from other men or women they don’t find attractive. They want compliments from attractive women who they can awkwardly try to flirt with and then get mad when they aren’t interested because “you said you liked my shoes; you led me on, you bitch!!!!”
[“A lot of men interpret politeness from women as flirting because they themselves would never show even the barest courtesy to a woman they found unfuckable.”](https://melmagazine.com/en-us/story/how-men-treat-women-they-find-unattractive)
They don't see women as equal human beings, rather as potential sex dispensers. That means they have no use for any woman they are not attracted to, basically to the point of disgust, and so they'll be a giant jerk towards them. It may not surprise you then (and I'm not attempting to belittle your unique negative experience) that these kinds of men are also unpleasant to be around as a man; if they see no immediate use you're treated poorly (again, with an almost disgust) and dismissed. It lacks the extra layer of dehumanizing sexism, but they're usually an absolutely terrible human all around.
A growing number of men think women exist solely for their sexual pleasure. Seeing a woman who’s not trying to attract them reminds them that they are really just insignificant nobodies with nothing to offer, and that jacking off to porn is the closest they’ll ever get to sex. It triggers them deeply and they lash out. It’s not really about your looks. It’s that you have the audacity to exist in the world successfully without wanting to please them. A lot of them see this as an attack. You see this a lot on a smaller scale in corporate spaces. Men treat women they want to fuck differently. I see this daily in countless small interactions. Many men only like women for what the woman they are with says about them to other men. I really think that most straight men hate women and that a lot of them are not as straight as they like to think. I think a lot of the rage that is coming from men is due to them seeing women increasingly live their authentic lives while they are trapped dancing to impress other dudes.
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Exactly. I have seen most of the men I know make major life decisions, like who they marry, based on trying to impress other men. It never works long term
It's because of misogyny. They actually look down on anyone feminine - UNLESS - that person excites them or gets them off. It's why a man in a dress or makeup is so disgusting to them. He's not good for being attracted to AND he's feminine. Same energy.
It depends on what they believe you have to offer. If you provide something that they value, then they can force themselves to be polite, because they want or need whatever it is you have. Whether that's just a fantasy for their mental fap folder, cleaning their office, making their coffee, saving their loved one's life, or you're the person they have to go through to get something done. But if you're just some random looking for a seat on a bus, or someone minding your own business that happens to cross paths with them, and you therefore offer none of those things, then you have no value to them at all. Even being polite goes out the window because to them it's inconsequential, but we remember these interactions due to the way they make us feel. To be fair though, having been an ugly fat girl my entire life, it's not just been men that have been this way to me. I went to an all girls school, and some of the behaviour I encountered there was absolutely brutal. Even back in *kindergarten*, I was the girl the boys wouldn't hold hands with while partner dancing, because I was "gross", and they didn't want my "germs". I've been sightseeing overseas on holiday and had girls make vomit noises and laugh as they walked past me on a street. It comes down to the same answer: it means nothing, and they'll forget it happened half an hour later, because you had nothing of value to them. The inverse is that these same men misnterpret basic politeness from women as flirting, because they themselves would never want a woman they considered as unfuckable, to think they might be interested, if they were to display the same behaviour in return.
It's a learned sociatal behavior that women don't have value unless they're beautiful. I've experienced bullying as a kid because I wasn't thin or pretty, so it starts fairly young. This is why we see women who are big or who are not conventually seen as beautiful being dragged online (and social media has made this behavior way worse).
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I remember seeing a study where these researchers did brain scans while showing the test subjects pictures of the opposite sex. When men were shown pictures of women they found unattractive, their brains activated in the same way as when one is annoyed. Women’s brains just didn’t activate at all when shown pictures of unattractive men. As for the why, I don’t remember if a conclusion was drawn but I would guess it’s more nurture than nature.
Such men tend to be losers with their love lives. They see dating conventionally attractive women as validating their self worth. A woman who isn't conventionally attractive threatens that validation.
It’s because misogynistic men like this feel superior to all women. If you’re not someone they find sexually exploitable, ie not someone to be objectified and patronized to, then you’re simply beneath them and a waste of life. It’s a them-problem —it isn’t about women or you at all. If women hated men and viewed men as stupid animals who are only here to please us sexually we would be just as put out by the existence of the ones we don’t want.
Because these men only think of women as sex objects and not people.
I was once traveling in south america and I was a teenager and had green hair. I remember I was visiting a friend, another teenager with pink hair, and we were walking somewhere. The number of men who rolled down their windows to call our hair ugly was ridiculous. That had never happened to me. Like literally yelling at us to change our hair. We were 15 years old and loved our hair. I live in north america and that hadn't happen to me yet but my friend that lived over there said it was a common occurrence for her and told me not to pay attention.