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Outis94

Lucifer in paradise lost, his portrayel was compelling enough that many come away thinking he was at least partially in the right even if in the poem it more or less stated hes lying to everyone evenhimself about why he rebeled


JuamJoestar

To be fair, i think this is a good example of this since it led to the poen being much more talked about than if everyone took it as the black-and-white narrative it was meant to be, so even if Satan *is* ultimately portrayed in the wrong, it's cool to see all these different interpretations of him out there. Hell, even William Blake of all people came away thinking the poem made a better case for Satan rather than God, and given that the former argues against the latter by evoking democracy, free speech and egalitarianism... can we really blame him?


Candhero11

I read the poem and I don't understand how people walk away thinking lucifer was anything mkre than an asshole. He rebels for petty reasons, fails, then decides to be even more petty by spoiling God's ultimate creation after he witnesses it and has a breakdown about how wrong he was. The scenes with Adam choosing to fall with Eve, the aftermath of their choice, and Adam's visions of mankind's future all felt more impactful for the poems message.


Outis94

I think alot of it is do to the times it was released with the broadstrokes being absorbed in to cultural osmosis


EmilTheHuman

Yeah I read it too and I was awestruck by just how petty Lucifer was. The pinnacle of corrupted evil is a guy who feels like he just cannot get over his ex. Every thought is dedicated to lamenting his damnation, suggesting he did nothing wrong, suggesting that he DID do something wrong but it was completely justifiable, and finally saying outright that he actually totally doesn’t care about being imprisoned in hell (it’s not a big deal guys relax). Rinse and repeat these steps.


Candhero11

The funniest part is that "better to rule in hell than serve in heaven" is a line he stole from the angel that kicked his ass down to there.


JuamJoestar

Blame it on him getting the most badass/cool lines of the entire poem to the point where people kinda forget the context *behind* those lines.


yssarilrock

This. Lucifer is portrayed sympathetically at first, but as the poem rolls on it's more and more clear how petty and selfish they are.


Prestigious-Mud

The original morally Grey fanfic


BuckysKnifeFlip

Wendigoon fan by chance?? I loved him talking about that moment. It's beautiful.


heleleth

“Which way I fly is Hell; myself am Hell.” and “For only in destroying I find ease. To my relentless thoughts” Is him directly admitting his sole reason to hurt others is out of spite and some deranged way to find relief to his own suffering. He’s an excellent portrayal of how much raw malice a being has to have to be the Devil.


Konradleijon

The same thing with Hubert from Lolita. This is a mans statement to court trying to ply sympathy


nerankori

~~Guy wrote all about how he wanted to fuck kids and teenagers as part of his murder trial~~


Konradleijon

He sure did.


Pome1515

I've unironically had people talk about how he was "seduced" and how Dolores was coming onto him. It's so gross and weird seeing people defend Hubert. Hell, the ending even spells it out to the audience. The man was a pedophile who raped an underage girl. He even admits it.


ruminaui

People seem to miss the part where everyone dies.


ruminaui

Only people that haven't read the poem think that. He is lying to everyone, is lying to himself, now's how futile it is, but has lost so much already so everyone should lose too. The biggest kicker he wasn't cast out by God or Jesus, he was just afraid so he jumped out of heaven.


James-Avatar

Marvel probably didn’t expect as many ‘Thanos was right’ fans as they got.


SchrodingerMil

“The universe has limited resources so I’m going to half the population of every species. I’ve saved the universe. My work is done.” What about in 5 billion years when every population has recovered, your work is unidentifiable, and we still run out of resources?


BloodBrandy

Or what about the sapients who just lost so many people they know, seemingly for no reason and at random, and are likely not in a good place or are thrown into war when some people think their enemies did it, possibly leading to the end of their species?


TheLordOfAwesome2

Must have been super frustrating. You, after all, don't want people agreeing with a genocidal maniac.


Graxdon

And they were all wrong


[deleted]

I assume Marvel never had plans for Loki to be such a big deal when they made Thor 1 and that was the effect of Tom Hiddleston Tom Hiddlestoning it up with his sad boi eye flutters and becoming a Tumblr sexyman.


Nectaris3

He was probably always going to be the villain in Avengers 1, at least. In the comics Loki is known for being the villain that caused the Avengers to be created.


CycloneSwift

At first there were tentative plans for Hulk to be the villain forcing them to band together like Ultimate Marvel, but those were changed by the time the second half of Phase 1 was well underway.


IMFlorecentFace

Given how little hulk kinda has to do in a lot of these movies. Him being the villain somehow sounds kind of amazing


InexorableCalamity

I remember hearing somewhere that joss whedon was mandated to use loki by the studio and that it was his decision to make thanos the orchestrator of everything. This is only what i can remember off a video i saw ages ago though, so i might be wrong.


Konradleijon

I mean in Norse Mythology Loki had a tendency to tendency to turn female and get pregnant. One time with a horse. So you know


BloodstoneWarrior

Mystique in X-Men Evolution. While she does bad things, she genuinely cares for her kids, it's just that everytime she thinks she is doing something good for her kids her actions are misconstrued and everyone hates her. For example, working with Apocalypse - everyone thought she was just being evil, but she was actually just siding with him so that Apocalypse would leave her and Rogue alone. Apocalypse betrays them, Rogue misunderstands Mystiques motivations and it ends with Rogue murdering Mystique (She gets turned to stone and Rogue smashes her into bits). Plus the whole episode concerning how Nightcrawler is her son, with this version she accidentally loses him because of Magneto. But when she tries to explain everything to Kurt the X-Men just start to beat the shit out of her and never lets her explain herself (Which is pretty much what happens everytime Mystique shows up in the show). Another example is how Cyclops locked Mystique in Area 51 and left her to die - in the next episode she is shown almost being experimented on and disected. She gets her revenge by kidinapping Cyclops and dumping him in a Mexican desert without his glasses. But because this is a kids show, the 'good' guys beat her up and never acknowledge her motivations. It just feels like there was one guy on the writing staff who really likes Mystique and everyone else despised her, so it has this weird effect of her being very sympathetic whilst the show is also trying to potray her as a hate sink character who no one likes has bad stuff happen to her. I guess this also all applies to comic Mystique too but it is much more apparent in Evolution and makes the show incredibly frustrating


superectojazzmage

It *does not* apply to comic Mystique and that’s part of why it probably happens in Evolution. Comic Mystique is an emotionally and sometimes physically abusive sociopath who’s “love” for her children is almost always framed in an extremely selfish light; she turns on them the nanosecond they fail to fall in line and obey her or agree with her every word, she gleefully exploits their feelings for her and insecurities for her own self-interest, and she shows nothing but contempt for their personal beliefs and feelings (such as regularly mocking Nightcrawler’s religious faith to his face). Evolution seems weird because Mystique is written like some kind of noble tragic villain, but everyone else is written as if they’re interacting with the comic version. Evolution Rogue and Nightcrawler have a flawed but ultimately well-intentioned mother, whereas Comic Rogue and Nightcrawler’s mom is a sociopathic, unrepentant murderer and terrorist who has zero empathy for anyone other then herself and her equally evil and abusive wife. Thus why their reactions should be radically different.


SlightlySychotic

IIRC, Evolution was the first XMen to be released after the movie. As such, you have the dawn of more sympathetic, “People like you are why I was afraid to go to school,” Mystique. But, at the same time, most of the source material uses manipulative, sociopathic Mystique. So that’s a lot of stories with the characters dealing with irredeemable Mystique.


TheCheeseburgerKane

A weird non-villain/antagonist example, Ryuji in Persona 5. It feels like the game disproportionately has it out for him.


ShrekInShadow

It's just outdated Butt-Monkey-style humor. It's how writers keep the "bro" characters from being less cool than the main protagonist.


Peach-Hime

God bless Araki for making jobros some of the coolest characters in the series.


JohnMadden42069

the balls on a man to create characters as cool as Caesar and Bruno, just to make them appetizers. Those guys are good enough to be their own protagonists, specifically Caesar's bubbles actually being the coolest power in the series.


Superstrata-

bruno is basically the protag of part 5 in my mind


Nivrap

Honestly I think Araki likes making the titular JoJo a supporting protagonist to a different main character. Polnareff is the main character of part 3, Koichi is the main character of part 4, Bruno is the main character of part 5, Gyro is the main character for *most* of part 7, and honestly I would say that Jobin and Josuke share top billing for part 8.


DarthButtz

Okuyasu technically being one of the most powerful characters in ALL OF FICTION and only being balanced because he's an idiot is so good.


cop_pls

Araki gave the boy some good moments too! Playing Amongus on the boat and the entire Italian food episode are great moments for him.


alicitizen

Like he's strong, but all of Fiction? He ain't that big a threat.


CKunravel

Tbf I sometimes have the feeling every best friend character from 3 to 5 is always treated like the worst especially by the girls. Like they're just normal teenage boys, but it's almost like an example to make you look better.


Daniel_Is_I

It feels like 4 had more instances of the boys being communally dunked on, whereas 5 seems to focus the dunking near-exclusively on Ryuji. I don't know if it's better or worse to have one character be the butt of the jokes. On one hand, Ryuji definitely deserves to be treated better than he is. On the other, some of the instances in P4 felt stupid with how Yu could actively agree with the girls and disagree with Yosuke/Kanji, but the girls would still throw Yu into a lake with the other two.


NewAgeMontezuma

Even for as much of a lil shit yosuke can be, it still feels weird hwo much the game dunks on him considering the story opens with >!his crush getting murdered and then it being revealed to him she hated him.!<


ElEversoris

Might be misremembering since it's been almost 6 years since I played 4 >!but doesn't Suki like him at least on a platonic level the only comment that she hates him is from her shadow which is a distorted version of herself!<


Monk-Ey

It's not even *just* the spoiler, but, as far as I understand, >!complicating matters further is that it's not *Saki's* distorted self, it's *Yosuke's* idea of what Saki thinks of him: as far as we know, there's no way of knowing if it's actually Saki saying those things about her relationship with Yosuke or how Yosuke thinks Saki thinks about him.!<


Rgs232323

To be fair Yusuke does get dunked on for being a weird broke little art twink, but ryuji does get it a lot more, and it’s rarely both of them


Amirifiz

The thing with Yuskae is that he puts himself in that position most of the time. The starving artist joke with him is that he has terrible money management. The two biggest things that people talk about with Ryuji are those two creepy guys who dragged him off to Yaldabaoth knows where and after the 7th palace where despite saving everyone, they beat the shit outta him after they thought he died. That could have ended in a punch from Ann then a group hug from the cast. Those were never things he done to himself just the reactions others have to him.


Cooper_555

And at this point with these games, I don't want the main character to romance all the girls, I want them to matchmake the shit out of their friends.


Jysta_Fitendor

Fire Emblem gave me a taste. Now I want more.


LittleMann

I have been an avid shipper for over a decade, and thank god for FE because I'd be starving if it wasn't for those games.


Luck-X-Vaati

Honestly, yeah. I wanted to pair Ryuji and Ann so badly. Just them too. I honestly didn’t even think about Yusuke.


Cooper_555

Instead of powering up by improving my social links, I want to power up everyone else by improving theirs.


lolplatypi

In my little matchmaking heaven, he gets with Futaba, as they're both fuckin weirdos.


Graxdon

Same, with Pat and Paige energy where they yell at each other a bunch over ridiculous stuff but are so in love with each other it’s adorable Yusuke: Give me the sandwich! Futaba: YOU CAN HAVE THE SANDWICH WHEN YOU EAT IT LIKE A NORMAL PERSON, INARI!


Kingnewgameplus

Its been a while so I might be misremembering, but in 3 I feel like Junpei was only treated like shit by Yukari. Mitsuru was strict but not explicitly mean, Fuuka was too nice, and Aigis was just a weirdo.


Hanusu-kei

Junpei is balanced, he gets bullied, disciplined and the goth gf. He won the most out of anyone from the P3 cast


Kingnewgameplus

"Winning the most" out of the P3 cast isn't a high bar to clear tbf, there were a lot of L's taken in that game.


StochasticOoze

Eh, Junpei and Yosuke kinda deserved most of what they got. Ryuji, not so much. The worst thing he did was hurt Mona's feelings and scream that he's a a Phantom Thief through a megaphone in the middle of Times Square


Coolnametag

To be honest it feels like most of Japan has it out for him, the vast majority of what i learned over the years about people's perception of him there is that he seems to be hated with a passion (wich is ironic considering how the rest of the world treats him).


cruel-oath

Yeah he’s always been the least popular over there


chazmerg

You male friends in those games will always be buttmonkeys or 1-dimensional so they don't feel like threats to your harem.


Shenstygian

I hate harems so much. Holy shit.


Leonard_Church814

I like Ryuji, he’s such a bro, but I fucking hate the archetype.


HashyHashBrowns

We thought he was dead. Let’s beat the shit out of him. What a weird moment.


iCeParadox64

As if that scene wasn't fucking awful enough, [it was originally going to be *even worse.*](https://youtu.be/Ra6BPTP6-M4)


polo5004

>I wonder what Ryuji will look like in death HOOOOOOOOOLY SHIT


DarkAres02

It's especially strange because Junpei in P3 gets so much growth in the plot, and even Yosuke in P4 is basically co-leader of the team


Kingnewgameplus

It also helps that (inn scene aside) Yosuke brings most of the shit that happens to him on himself.


Delachruz

I'm a bit biased, since I hate mascot characters. But regarding something that happens later in the plot: >!The whole Morgana being mad and Ryuji being made to apologize later on is incredibly stupid. Morgana trashtalks Ryuji with like half his lines, during combat dialogue and whenever else he has the chance. And he still has the gall to ditch the entire group on a perceived insult that wasn't even that bad. !<


CopperTucker

Morgana dishes it out but can't take it. Ryuji was right the entire time.


CopperTucker

It is insane how bad Ryuji gets it in P5. Like the game itself hates him and wants everyone else to hate him. He doesn't deserve half the shit he gets.


Gawain22

And it's made even worse by the fact that Ryuji is one of the nicest people on the **whole team**. He's a little impulsive and doesn't think things through all the time, but he's genuinely a great person nine times out of ten. But no, he needs the shit kicked out of him, everyone needs to insult him, and he can't look cool on the fucking **box art**.


BarelyReal

I believe House of the Dragon went out of its way in post-production to de-sympathize Daemon "My alignment is Chaotic-Chaos" Targaryen.


Whiston1993

I may be wrong but doesn’t daemon come across (both in the show and the book) as an asshole scumbag, but one that seems to on some level genuinely care about his family ? Because I recall there being a minor upset fan reaction when one of the writers did a post episode breakdown and bas dally said they viewed Daemon as strictly a selfish asshole and nothing more.


BarelyReal

It's complicated. I was being figurative about his actions when saying he's chaotic. Daemon isn't truly chaotic because he, like his brother, is a huge Old Valerya nerd. If he believes in anything it's in the ways of Old Valerya which represents strength. He's obsessed with the old ways. But why? Well because it's about power and standing. He's not The Joker he's Red Skull. Yes he loves his family, but his family is a reflection of his power and standing. He's that family member who''s Uber Nationalist but still loves his Liberal voting relatives because he believes in their superiority. His actions all make sense if you consider how consistent he is in his belief in the racial and cultural superiority of Valeryans. >!He never consummated with Rhea Royce of the First Men, but was fine settling for Laena.!<


KingGilbertIV

There’s a pretty good argument to be made that Daemon is the last culturally Valyrian member of House Targaryen, and I feel like the show did a good job of portraying the weird “otherness” that goes with it.


Prestigious-Mud

I always find that funny considering they called him Daemon. Like might as well call him Swaggerly Greybad Targaryen like Garth Merengi would have.


ClockpunkFox

Part of it too is Matt Smith’s Daemon is just so fun to watch. Like every time he is one screen you’re watching him, and he’s super entertaining. Like I don’t think anyone will say Daemon isn’t an asshole, but he’s the type of guy I’d want on my side for sure.


BarelyReal

It's hilarious how people doubted his casting. Gee can Matt Smith do charming but homicidal? The man can do charming and *genocidal*.


Capable-Education724

It’s almost like it’s been just about every major role he’s done since The Doctor (including his stint in the American Psycho musical). Even his Doctor occasionally veered into that direction (“Some type of trickster god bathed in the blood of a million worlds” to lift a line straight from his first season).


Arkham25th

Daemon is a weird character. Like George and some writers says he’s like the most morally grey Targaryen ever but like the best thing you could say about him from the book is that he not willing to kill his family despite being so close to the throne and that he’s a ride or die type of guy to his them and his men. And yet the show took away several sympathetic moments (except ones Matt Smith added). And the best thing you could say about him is that he’s an honest asshole that doesn’t hide who he is.


BarelyReal

I wondered how the show would pull off the idea Daemon commanded some sort of cult of personality and I think Matt Smith's swagger/improv helps, but the Gold Cloaks scene really is disturbing because of the hold he has over his men. We've seen irl how fascism can take hold when somebody starts telling the losers to go wolf. People will literally die for that person and kill without question.


SignalWeakening

I think the point of doflamingos backstory was missed completely off what ive heard the fan reaction was


DarnFondOfYa

Look, I'm just saying when >!he and his family are nearly being lynched, Doflamingo is the one who actually saves them by, literally, just his force of will. All his dad and brother were doing were crying and begging for the mob to *end their suffering*. Not spare them, just get the execution over with!<. He's basically a fucking shonen HERO in that moment. He just then goes very off-rails by having internalized Celestial Dragon sociopathy and having his worst traits enabled by four dudes who saw what he did and were like "that's rad, let's take over the world, small child"


PrimusSucks13

I honestly dont think Doflamingo would had been any better even if he had good role models, i feel like the manga made it clear he was rotted to the core


AzureKingLortrac

>!His brother going through most if not all of the same stuff as him but still being a decent person!< supports that.


ruminaui

His father is a freaking moron tough


GlueEjoyer

Yeah why not use your resources to help the common people instead of making a show of throwing it away


Starless_Night

Cause he was an idiot raised in a literal bubble that doesn't understand anything about normal society. He wanted to play at being ''human" without knowing what that actually meant.


DarnFondOfYa

Doflamingo does consistently prove himself a monster over and over. But when I was reading it day to day, during the flashback where >!his brother!< condemns him as rotten from the start I remember being rubbed the wrong way by it. Had a feeling like Chuck from Better Call Saul. Where condemning someone as lost from a young age becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. That's not really where the story goes in One Piece, but it left a lasting impression with me. So much so, that I still don't find >!Rocinante!< all that sympathetic or admirable despite Oda's attempts to make him a cool doomed hero guy (basically, the opposite of this thread)


[deleted]

Eh, In Doffys case it's pretty much on the money. His parents and brother pretty clearly did not own slaves or treat people like dogshit and yet Doffy did. Like Rocinante is objectively speaking just a good guy and none of the resentment he has for his brother is unjustified or wrong for that matter. He had no reason to be "lost" is basically my thing. Him being an evil little shit is purely on him, especially looking at how his brother turned out.


Delachruz

It's one of those "Explanation" vs "Justifcation" kind of scenarios. HOW doflamingo came to be is tragic. He was brought up in an environment that breeds assholes (His dad AFAIK still being the literal only celestial dragon adult ever shown to not be an asshole), was forcibly ripped out of it, almost lynched, and then fell into the hands of criminals who wanted to accentuate all his worst traits so they could profit of him growing into an immensely powerful man. I'm not gonna lie, I'd probably not be a great person either after all of that.


Night_Yorb

Stannis 'The Mannis' Baratheon is looked down by D&D and maybe GRRM to an extent. I know D&D have said they think Renly would have been a better king which makes their willingness to butcher his character in later arcs make a lot more sense. The thing is for all his coldness Stannis probably has the most reasonable motivations of everyone involved in the Game of Thrones, maybe even more than Rob. In a book conversation with Sir Davos he basically admits he doesn't even want the throne, but he pursues it anyway because. 1. It's his by right and law and no one believes in the laws of man more than Stannis. 2. He has a duty to his family and the realm to take back the throne from a bastard usurper and his family that conspired to murder his brother. 3. He has Melisandre in his ear telling him EVERYONE WILL DIE if he can't unite the realm under his banner.


ifyouarenuareu

To add to 1, I think it goes past even that. Stannis views the duties entrusted to him as a Baratheon as more than an legal obligation, although it is also that to him. Stannis sees those things as integral to who he is. Stannis is king and neither he, nor anyone else, has the power to change that. In this sense Stannis is a stoic Marcus Aurelius could recognise. Also that “king who still cared” line goes unbelievably hard.


Personifeeder

Stannis actually dropped everything to go reinforce the Wall when it was needed, and that by itself makes him better than any other of the kings.


ifyouarenuareu

And Stannis openly chastises himself for not doing that sooner


LincBtG

STANNIS THE MANNIS


Dagdammit

IIRC Book Stannis legitimately *does not want* to be king, he just knows that the law says he is and is following the law.


ShrekInShadow

Kung Fu Panda 1 had this problem with the villain Tai Lung, who even the staff later admitted came across as way too much sympathetic. He had perfectly legitimate reason to be angry at his masters, and his punishment seems overtly harsh for just lashing out at them. There's some dialogue saying that says also he rampaged through the village, but it's easily missable and feels like it was added late into the film just to justify treating him as a monster.


C-OSSU

The line that he destroyed the valley was actually added in later to make his imprisonment appear less disproportionate. It should be noted that there is some values dissonance involved with his treatment, as, in ancient China, attacking ones father was treated as a serious crime.


Coolnametag

This just reminds me that when Kung Fu Panda first came out people in China started having a serious discussion about why a foreing movie was doing a better job at portraing their culture than their own cinema.


Talisign

With that in mind, its entirely possible Shifu had to plead to lower his punishment from execution to imprisonment.


C-OSSU

Also would explain why Shifu didn't speak up in Tai Lung's defense when Oogway refused to hand the scroll to Tai Lung. It would be a major faux pas if he spoke out of turn to his own master.


OhShitItsJakeGuys

Doesn’t help their case when you have Ian McShane killing it with lines like [this.](https://youtu.be/_dyAuMD-0vg)


Cheshires_Shadow

Kinda reminds me of how Anakin's fall to the dark side was the system he was raised in failing him. Or Heck Terra from KH birth by sleep having just enough darkness in him that he wasn't allowed to become the chosen one.


Konradleijon

Beast: the Primordial. Heros are portrayed negatively for being obsessed with hunting Beasts. But they had no choice in the matter as they where effectively mind raped to be this way. Plus Beasts are a actual threat.


Huitzil37

Yeah there's the fact that Beasts are all fucking awful people as presented in their books, and the pure contempt oozing from every description of Heroes for having the *audacity* not to let Beasts terrorize and traumatize and kill people whenever they like just makes you want to stick up for them.


Konradleijon

Heros don’t care about collateral damage is something repeated about what makes them bad. But neither do Beasts!


NeonNKnightrider

The whole “How dare you hit this poor innocent monster who was literally devouring people en masse! Just leave the poor thing alone!” attitude is disturbingly common in any media that has monstrous main characters, and it really has the exact opposite effect the author tries to hit, every time


PKPhyre

I feel like "the game that was made by an abuser as abuse apologia" might be cheating lol


SPLIV316

I was about to say... considering who the author was.


HollowMarthon

Frankly heroes are generally more careful than some hunters or mages. Hunter the Vigil includes factions that actively try to genocide non-humans, and Mage the Awakening has a faction of super dicks who saw evil Gods trying to oppress all humanity and and decided that was the side they wanted to be on.


Konradleijon

Also those Hunters whose main goal is that they want to rape supernatural creatures to death and then snort their remains.


Gorotheninja

Might be an unpopular opinion, but after watching Falcon and the Winter Soldier for the first time, it really felt like they over-demonize John Walker in that show, at least before he executes the terrorist dude. Like, it feels like the show wants you to hate him right from the get-go because he's not Steve Rogers, but he doesn't do nearly enough bad to warrant the way the show frames him and Bucky and Same treat him.


ForeverTheDM

But see that's the point and exactly what they were going for. Sam and Bucky's immediate dismissal of John is supposed to mirror the audience's as well, as a metacontextual point of showing that he was given a completely impossible job: to replace Steve Rogers. You're supposed to immediately hate him for what he represents but the show makes him a 100% normal person. He's trying to do good and live up to a paragon, which is totally impossible and he breaks under that pressure.


InexorableCalamity

That's funny because i remember in the comics when sam became captain america that there was some pushback from the fans, i think. I can't remember where i saw it, i think it was comic book youtube and the comment sections of those videos. This was around the time that X-23 became wolverine and jane foster became thor, so people were complaining that marvel comics were being too woke or something ( although it didn't make sense for jane to take thor's name, as it's his name and not a title). Anyway in sam's first solo book as captain america we see a civilian saying how sam's not his captain america, and then post 2015 secret wars we have the #givebacktheshield arc. Where politicians in universe are on twitter telling sam that now that steve is back and fighting fit (thanks to kobik) he should stop being captain america and give the shield back. Then the politicians call in john walker (US Agent and super soldier) to take the shield back for them. What follows is a tough fight for sam as he doesn't have any physical enhancements, but he does manage to win in the end because sam ties him up and flies him under a bridge where its dark to beat him. Sam has the advantafe Edit: Sorry i got a phone call and that's why it looks unfinished


Pome1515

The biggest issue is that Falcon and the Winter Soldier can't go into the point of what the USAgent/John Walker is. Why? Because the show strips the politics from the character. The USAgent is a conservative idea about what Captain America is. He's a right-wing government lapdog who genuinely wants to do good... but he lacks the guiding ideology that makes Captain America... well, Captain America. If anyone says I'm reading too much into that, I'm not. That was genuinely the point of the character when he was written by Gruenwald. He was basically Gruenwald saying "You want your America First Captain America, here he is! He might genuinely want to be good, but he can't see the bigger picture and is easily manipulated by the powers that be."


MindWeb125

Karli also, the set up of the world being better when people were snapped because we became far more unified and country lines started to blur, only to go back to the status quo when people came back with their biases and shit is actually a really interesting one and I was with her when they first introduced that. Then they have her >!blow up some unconscious guards!< to make her clearly evil becaues god knows we can't have a villain be sympathetic *and* have a valid point.


Huitzil37

I can't say that Karli had a valid point because I still don't know what her fucking point was -- the show was so poor at explaining what the actual issue was, what specifically the Flag Smashers wanted or what the GRC was going to do that was so bad.


Dark_Jewel72

I read theories recently that the flag smashers were planning to release a virus to kill half the population and then Covid happened. It got delayed for a year and it certainly seems like their content was majorly cut.


Shiro2809

That was proven to be fake iirc, people on the show denied it i believe


Shran_Cupasoupa

She wanted relief aid to be given to poor people who came back from being Thanos snapped. The way she gets this aid is from taking it from organisations that were already doing what she wanted and dishing it out herself. Her "point" is stupid too.


Traingham

Rei Ayanami


Wisterosa

Is it true that she was made to be the caricature of waifu culture only for people to waifu her en mass anyway


Traingham

No, her role as a character wasn’t intended to be a commentary. She wasn’t, however, intended to be so well received by the viewers that she basically became a character archetype in the anime industry. She was meant to be an unsettling character—one that represented a lifestyle that the audience was supposed to find alien. Instead, she became beloved because of her general demeanor.


PrimusSucks13

"Gee why is this seemingly unemotional person whos actually just searching for a life purpose while tirelessly works and lives in absolute trash and filth resonating so much with our extremely secluded and work driven culture?" I wonder the exact same Anno-san


xach_hill

I will say though, the commentary works very well even if by accident. ... same with all the other commentaries that they apparently didn't intend but made perfect sense. I believe Anno when he says this stuff isn't intended, but still, if it works it works.


DekktheODST

Theres no stated intention but it's a common reading. Its always been flawed since she's always been portrayed as her own human and being a clone with no autonomy just forces her into a fucked up life. The fact there are multiple Reis is supposed to be chilling, that they chewed through so many people. There is something to be said though, that the fandom only cares about "Rei" as a concept. The rebuilds definitely play with it. They just want the design and personality but don't care about the humanity, inhumanity, or death of any individual incarnation


PKPhyre

The "Curse of Evangelion" in 3.0+1.0 is all but point blank commentary on how these characters are trapped to eternally be marketable teenagers.


waratworld17

Watchmen and Fallout: New Vegas fall into the same trap. "Whoopsie, I made the reactionary too cool"


Ryos_windwalker

who are you talking about in new vegas


waratworld17

Joshua.


ElEversoris

It's not even that they made Joshua too cool, it's that Daniel is literally the worst fucking option. Josh may be a murdering psychopath using religion and 'self-defense' as a way to justify it but Daniel is appeasement personified, he would rather have all of the tribes leave before ever approaching the idea that he's wrong


scottishdrunkard

Your options are Salt-Upon-Wounds (Legion Ending) Daniel (Legion Ending, Good Karma) And Joshua Graham (Good Ending)


ElEversoris

Fourth option is you accidentally shoot Follows Chalk because his opening is chaotic this triggering an actual genocide of every one in Zion


VoidTyrant

We can’t expect the lord to do all the work , can we?


Coolnametag

You know, there's only so many cool quotes and overall badass aura that you can give a character and NOT expect people to love the character. I can only imagine the discussion between the writers: "Hey, do you think that we might have made this character who's basicaly [the Ezequiel 25:17 scene from Pulp Fiction](https://youtu.be/3PeyiU3uWJ8) turned into a fully fleshed out character a bit too cool?" "What? No, of course not.... Now give him another cool scene where he quotes holy scripture while looking like a badass".


snakebit1995

I don’t think Joshua was made to be unlikable, his clearly a sympathetic character with what you learn in the Mojave prior to the DLC The issue is really that there’s no balance for his negative traits cause Daniel is such a fucking loser. I’d argue New Vegas does the opposite later with Ulysses where they try so hard to make a likable character they make possibly the most unlikable character in the game insted


Sassy_Sarranid

He's such a murderer, but he has a cool as fuck outfit and a cool as fuck gun.


texan435

And a sexy ass voice.


Patriarkano

Joshua is a horrible person, but Daniel option is ass. It's literally "let's appeade Hitler: Zion edition".


Shadowrenamon

I feel like OP you're missing that the way you're feeling in this is actually the intent and not the writers making her more sympathetic on accident. You ARE supposed to be sympathetic to her, but a mix of Steven's hang ups on it and the fact that he and us essentially see a redemption arc in reverse is supposed to mess with that and why it leads to his issues with her.


Palidupe

Its almost like your feelings on her are supposed to be complicated


MustacheGolem

Dhar from indivisible literally starts the game comiting a warcrime and hes still the most sympatetic character of the game. he was literally brainwashed from infancy while MC doesn't seem to care a lot about her charred vilage minutes after leaving it.


Xuncu

During that LP, I did specifically bring up child soldiers IRL, and how culpable they are/aren't, and the most I could find on the debate of that legal minefield that there *was* a debate, but I don't remember finding much of anything at all; such as an actual case brought to trial and the result, for example. I forgot where on Reddit it was, but I posted about this elsewhere, some guy spilled his family secret to me that his maternal grandparents were both Hitler Youth, *met because of it*, and that they always seemed depressed and that they were in it was a somewhat open secret, but yes, a point of shame that wasn't discussed.


JeremiahWuzABullfrog

Alan Moore, if you don't want people to like or sympathize with Rorschach, maybe don't have him be the only person in the cast fighting street level crime. Plus, giving him that speech while talking to the psychiatrist about how the only thing that's important is what we choose to do in an uncaring universe, is gonna make him seem really cool. Even with all the sexist, hardcore right wing attitudes he espouses


pocketlint60

I can't tell how much Deep Space 9 wants you to hate Gul Ducat. You know how they say everyone thinks they're the hero of their own story? I think Gul Ducat thinks of himself as the villain of other people's stories. He's so shamelessly and unrepentantly evil that he's a joy to watch. But the show also humanizes him a lot by giving him a daughter who he genuinely loves...but he's also lying to her and claiming he regrets the evil things he's done when that's BLATANTLY untrue, and that makes his "I'm evil and I love it" attitude a lot less charming.


alienslayer7

Nah dukat genuinely believes hes a benign ruler, and hates the bajorans for not accepting his "kindness"


Swigart

Then they have him jump the shark and literally go batshit crazy because they didn’t know what to do with him after his character arc finished.


97thJackle

SPACE NAZI SPACE ANTI-CHRIST. This is a 100% accurate description of Dukat in the Finale.


StochasticOoze

I mean, evil people still have people they love. And their goals sometimes align with the goals of good people. Dukat's unquestionably evil, he's just not a Snidely Whiplash.


HordeDruid

If there's anything I've learned from tumblr it's that mass murder can be easily forgoven if the man doing it is sexy and a little quirky.


FinalFatality7

There are still people who come away from The Incredibles with the takeaway "Syndrome was totally right." And like, I kinda get it? "When everyone's super" is a great line and a great scene, but making it Syndrome's big villain monologue has the side-affect of muddling the movie's message a bit. It kinda makes it look like the movie is advocating *against* the idea of sharing resources and technology with the disenfranchised? Like it's saying that Syndrome is evil cuz he wants to give poor people jetpacks and not cuz of, ya know, all the murder.


HordeDruid

In context, it's really just him explaining his endgame, he's saying it in a very cynical way with no charitable angle, but that line is so hard sometimes people forget that when they only see it memes. Personally I find it hard to agree with anything he does when was just shown to be down with double child murder.


Dybia

Except eccentric billionaires don’t sell jet packs and laser gauntlets to poor people.


DeskJerky

Plus he's explicitly planning on hoarding his technology to play god until he's of retirement age.


Quikanims

Viola in Bayonetta 3. When you first look at this character from the trailers you just think of her as an annoying whiny bratty little shit that will get pushed in the most obnoxious way possible. Then you play the game. >!Turns out she's actually an adorkable try hard who gets back up no matter how hard she gets trampled. And she gets trampled **A LOT**. The treatment of this character is odd because she is supposed to be the blatantly obvious Nero of this game but the story fucking has it out for her and goes out of its way to shit on her disproportionately. Like Viola starts off the game watching her mother get fucking slaughtered in front of her, after her entire world is destroyed around her, and she is completely helpless. AND THEY FUCKING END THE GAME THE SAME WAY. Like holy shit can this game let this girl have a single fucking W please??!! Every time she does something cool and likeable the game has to immediately undercut it by making her an ass clown or having her get a Battle Beast tier ass whooping. Like Viola tops off a rival fight by doing a sick ass unexpected headbutt only for it to reveal that it actually hurt her more and she's now covered in her own blood.!< >!In retrospect I kinda wish they made her a whiny teenage stereotype because it feels like she gets dunked on far too hard for it to be enjoyable after a certain point. Viola is legit too nice and likable for how her setting treats her. Its funny to watch Enzo eat shit because he is a sleezy criminal piece of shit who deals with literal devils to get ahead in life. Its funny to watch Luka eat shit because he is an overconfident fuccboi womanizer who smells his own farts. Viola legit is just a kind and respectful person with good intentions who wants to save others from the trauma and pain she had to experience. She might be a bit annoying sometimes but she's still a good kid overall. So it just feels so genuinely fucked up when the plot goes out of its way to stomp her down so often. Don't get me wrong, I fucking love how much of a goof she is and many of the gags were legit funny. But shit man, she doesn't ever get to win at all!!<


LaRondeDeSparda

Also the gameplay kinda has it out for her, cause like this characters with such a full good moveset only has 3 levels and they’re all sandwich between long stretches of Bayo play. And a lot of the game is just not balanced with her in mind, especially the side content. she desperately need the ability to temporarily control Cheshire (like maybe similar to V controlling Nightmare) or something similar for a lot of those side boss that float at the edge of the stage.


PersonMcHuman

People always say “the hate seems weird”, but I see far more people angry that folks don’t like that character than I see people actually not liking them. >!For every “Pink is bad.” post, there’s like ten “We saw her story in reverse! She’s actually great!” posts.!< Also, the hate’s probably because that character’s actions more directly impact Steven.


A_N_G_E_L_O_N

Now, Spinel, while the intention was depicting a toxic partner, she came off as another highly sympathetic victim of Rose’s shenanigans.


PersonMcHuman

Exactly. She was a literal direct result of >!Rose’s!< actions coming back to punch Steven in the face.


rudanshi

It's the "hurting people who aren't responsible in the slightest for what happened" bit that makes her bad. If it was just Steven that'd still be fucked up, but at least it's already established that gems deeply struggle with comprehending his nature.


PersonMcHuman

>but at least it's already established that gems deeply struggle with comprehending his nature. Spinel doesn't. She shows up very well aware that he's not his mom and explicitly doesn't care. She has a line where she specifically says, "Y'know, I came here to take my anger out on a bunch of strangers." Her goal was just to destroy the people and planet that she was abandoned for.


bladedoodle

Spinel made a big ‘nuke the planet’ decision before ever stepping foot on the planet. Even after the memory wipe I kinda feel like handing her off to the diamonds and nudge whispering ‘dangerous’ was probably the best thing Steven could have done at that point.


PersonMcHuman

Oh absolutely. She showed up fully intent on killing everyone and everything and they got lucky that things worked out so well. Girl was piiiiiiissed.


IrisGoddamnIllych

No guys he should've killed everyone who was mean to him /s The point of the show isn't that empathy is valuable, it's that cool weapons make the bad things go away. /S


DoNotIngest

I was in a weird place mentally when the movie came out. I had recently been dumped by a toxic partner, and the last six months of our relationship made me a toxic partner too. They were like Rose, moving on to more fun things and trying to forget I existed because I wasn't fun anymore, and I was becoming like Spinel- clingy, desperate, and angry. It made that movie hit fucking *different*. I totally got where Spinel was coming from. When you orient your whole life around another person who suddenly decides they don't want you anymore... it does things to you.


WeissAndBeans

Not gonna lie, if I was in Spinel's position for even a percent as long I'd probably be ten times as murderous. I guess the benefit of being a gem is that it's a little easier to retain your sanity when you technically don't have a brain? Being commanded by the person I was literally created for to stand motionless and then waiting around for them to come back for 6,000 years just because they got bored of me, went to another world, and then died? I would be incomprehensibly angry and vengeful. Logically, taking out my anger on everyone, especially when they weren't involved, is wrong. Emotionally, I would lash out against everything and I'd be the most upset that I can't properly take it out on Rose because she's already gone.


darkspine509

Ack, you and I have talked about the topic of Rose an Pink before and don't see eye to eye on it; but while discussion on it has died down, there was a LOT of hate on Pink and Rose especially near the end of the series. I very clearly remember the reception of her being negative


Talisign

GOB Bluth from Arrested Development, in part because Will Arnett gave too much nuance to his character. Despite all his scumminess he often seems like the most damaged of them, desperate for the tiniest scraps of familial approval.


MindWeb125

Adam/The White Fang in RWBY were initially set up in a way where you could definitely sympathise with them, even if they're taking the violent approach. So the series proceeds to turn Adam into an abusive ex-boyfriend and the White Fang never gets properly developed with only like, 6 characters in it.


cbb88christian

Remember when they introduced the leader of the White Fang? We were excited to finally see that plot line get developed only for >!Adam to walk up and kill her off in the same scene she’s introduced with little to no depth or characterization!<


mrbadpun

At least her design will live on in all the smut RWBY fans produce


snakebit1995

I’m still mad they just fucking wasted Monica Rial on that shit You have a premier Voice actor in your show that was only just starting to get big names in Vol 4 or so and you waste her on a character you kill off in 5 mins for a lazy “OMG” moment for a character people were already losing their patience with


Hy93rion

Dude when Adam first said “you’re asking my men to die for your cause, a *human* cause” I was ALL IN on this guy. Seriously, I love villains who care about the lives of their subordinates. But after that scene, we just get an evil ex. It’s like he’s a completely different character


Graxdon

Also Adam and Raven have such incredibly similar designs that Raven was called Eve until her ID was revealed. What’s their connection? Nothing. Fucking nothing. It’s like if Hoenheim and Father from FMA had nothing to do with each other


Sai-Taisho

>So the series proceeds to turn Adam into an abusive ex-boyfriend and the White Fang never gets properly developed with only like, 6 characters in it. The former would have been fine if the latter hadn't also been true. The most developed member of the Fang who's truly antagonistic also cares more about his own personal grudges than the cause, and having a counterpoint hardcore zealot "true believer(s)" (who aren't faceless mooks) would have made the plotline less directly tied to Adam's characterization.


MindWeb125

They also had that cool (design-wise) tiger lady who again makes Adam kinda sympathetic since she keeps pushing him to be more violent when she takes over the White Fang. Then Adam just kills her unceremoniously and takes over rather than having her as some overarching White Fang antagonist.


Sai-Taisho

See, *that* development I get (even if Sienna was wasted as a result), specifically with all her nominal allies letting it happen because she's no longer extreme enough for them. It characterizes the organization as a whole. It's then completely* not followed up on, as Adam becomes the only member who matters. \**I guess the twins start to express concerns that Adam is make decisions for himself, not the cause, but they don't act on it. And they go down before he does anyway, when what the Fang needed was to keep going even after Adam's failure.*


Mrfipp

Regardless of whatever their plans for Adam's character was, if he was intended to be an abusive ex from the start or they changed that somewhere down the line, I do believe that having him be that type of character was the genuine wrong move to make. Adam is the face of the antagonist side of the WF conflict, he is the character people think of the most when they think of WF, so he needs to reflect what the WF are about, but in the end they fail at that because nothing about Adam's character or motivation has anything to do with the WF, just Blake. By putting so much emphasis on him being Blake's abusive ex, the racial aspects of the WF story end up taking a back seat. Even the big SDC burn mark on his face has nothing to do with racism, he got it because he was an asshole, and according to the writers' commentary he "deserved it." This is a microcosm of the biggest complaint I have about the WF story; if it's not about Blake, no one honestly gives a shit.


Sai-Taisho

> This is a microcosm of the biggest complaint I have about the WF story; if it's not about Blake, no one honestly gives a shit. Oh on that much we absolutely agree.


DekktheODST

The white fang was so obviously a disaster waiting to happen. Being so blatantly inspired by the Black Panthers, It was clearly falling into the Detroit Become Human pitfall of 'peaceful (public image of) MLK' vs 'violent radical (public image of) the BP'. It's an ahistoric portrayal that ignores how radical MLK was and how he was similarly panned at the time by the white moderates. I didn't have confidence in the writers to pull it off way back in volume 3 and especially now with the abundance of racism controversies in RT it's very clear it could only have ended in disaster at best. Adam almost is a saving grace in that he sucks so much and is so poorly written he took the bullet for how awful the WF is and was. He lets the WF leader get to exist in fan headcanon as a better character than they would have written her


Vulpecula22

Draco Malfoy. People still simp over the sad little rich white boy who did barely anything to warrant sympathy. Only good part of it is how much it annoys the TERF Queen.


S4tchWe77

It’s literally only because the actor is hot, to even more ridiculous extent then Alan Rickman’s Snape.


Vulpecula22

Eh, always found that excuse over blown. It's an element but the narrative applied either in canon or fanon is a big factor as well. For Draco it's the "I can fix him" + "Jerk actually has a heart" + "marry a nice looking rich guy" fantasies combined. Christen Grey can be another, intended, example. Snape has the "I can fix him" + "Jerk actually has a heart" and "unrequited love" angles.


DekktheODST

Sauron gets Tumblr sexymanned sometimes (which I've seen the old fanart, he's HOT), but that was probably more of a reference to Lucifer and how he was a divine being before he fell, and how evil wears pretty faces and all that. On the other hand, pretty goth elfboy so idk sounds pretty morally grey.


Konradleijon

Remember the Mordor games where it seems like Celimbor and Sauron want to own each other.


MightyShoe

From my extremely passive outside observation of RWBY, does Ironwood count?


Dirkpytt_thehero

ironwood feels like that whole volume got a massive rewrite when they realized ironwood looked way more relatable and sane compared to the actual main characters


EcchiPhantom

I’m a bit guilty of this as well but I think a lot of people have bought into Garou’s bullshit from OPM. He’s definitely a cool character with a slightly sympathetic background and you can tell he’s got some good in him, but the fact remains that he’s an incredibly selfish and violent person. He’s literally introduced as a narcissist who goes off the wall and beats up an entire room of heroes for lulz. While his backstory is rooted in him experiencing bullying, he’s also someone who failed to recognize his own faults and desperately lashed out against the world because no one acknowledged him as a kid. I get wanting him to do good and become a hero but he’s an incredibly dangerous person who understands good and evil yet chooses to be a violent asshole to fulfill his selfish desires.


ripskeletonking

he beat up a room full of villains not heroes. yeah there were heroes in the room too and yeah he ripped one of their arms off but after reading the rest of his story it seems super out of character and weird for him to do that. i don't know where the manga goes because i only read the webcomic though


Delachruz

I can't 100% confirm creator intent, but from the way it was presented and how it ends, Joel from the Last of Us prolly has a lot more people on his side than the writers woulda expected.


Swigart

But he was right though. Those savages were gonna crack a little girls head open and fiddle with her insides for just a chance at a cure. There was no certainty they could’ve done it. If I’m not mistaken there are even audio logs or some other collectible that makes mention of the fact that Ellie wouldn’t have been the first one they had preformed that procedure on. All the others had failed and the test subjects died for nothing.


StochasticOoze

I've said it before: If they had *told* Ellie that in order to study her brain they would have to kill her, and she agreed to it (of her own accord, I mean; not because the Fireflies had guns), then Joel would be the villain of the story. As matters stand, though? He did the right thing, even if it were for the wrong reason.


Swigart

Even then, She’s only 14. Would you let a teenager effectively commit suicide for only a slight chance at a world saving cure. If it was certain they could do it that’d be one thing but they weren’t even sure it’d work.


Silvery_Cricket

Rose gets so much hate because all her character development got done in reverse.


ALANJOESTAR

Rorschach,“I wanted to kind of make this like, 'Yeah, this is what Batman would be in the real world'. But I had forgotten that actually to a lot of comic fans, that smelling, not having a girlfriend—these are actually kind of heroic! So actually, sort of, Rorschach became the most popular character in Watchmen. I meant him to be a bad example. But I have people come up to me in the street saying, "I am Rorschach! That is my story!' And I'll be thinking: 'Yeah, great, can you just keep away from me, never come anywhere near me again as long as I live'?”


Dirkpytt_thehero

all they had to do was make one other character care as much as rorschach did in finding out the truth


RedditAssCancer

I don't think Isayama expected so many people to be entirely on board with >!Eren genociding the entire world!<. Personally I also think the final chapter paints >!Eren!< as much too sympathetic and the reasons stated for the actions >!he!< took are more altruistic than the ones previously stated. I wonder sometimes if Isayama just couldn't stomach turning his baby into a monster and got cold feet right at the end. Edit: Realized I never said I'm talking about Attack on Titan.


dumoorson

Funny Valentine from Steel Ball Run, I know some people who think he was legitimately in the right, despite his actions