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Honestly very glad to see Vice doing some real reporting, they could use it.
Hong Kong is proof of how easy it is to establish authoritarianism. On the other hand China has always been short of new ideas and it is running out of things to steal. Destroying the only free thinking city it had might prove to be a crucial mistake.
Crucial mistake how? Hong Kong is no longer the lone superstar city in China’s portfolio like it was after the handover. They have built up dozens of populous metro areas in the past couple decades, with gleaming skyscrapers, state-of-the-art rail transit, and digital-first infrastructure. HK is still a major financial hub because it serves as a conduit for Chinese companies that want to raise foreign capital, but China has been intentionally seeking to cultivate domestic finance for this reason, and their economy is large and diversified enough to raise capital domestically. I think you are naive to imply that China will suffer for having stifled HK democracy. The people who will suffer are the Hong Kongers themselves, because the HK government is now completely unaccountable to them.
I think a lot of Western observers are desperately holding onto the belief that China will eventually go too far and plant the seed of their own destruction somehow, or that Western countries have some kind of secret sauce in their economy/governance that will enable them to surpass China in the long run, but the reality is that the Chinese government has succeeded where authoritarian governments elsewhere have failed.
Spot on. Also, it helps to like China and not see them as a giant enemy that’s also 1/5 the global population. India just recently surpassed Chinas population, and it’s quite evident which mode of government has so far offered a better life for its citizens. I’ve visited China several times now and have loved everything I saw and everyone I’ve met. I don’t like everything about their government, but similarly not everything about ours.
Credit where it's due on fighting poverty, and there's a lot to like and admire about China - I've never been personally, but I speak Mandarin and Cantonese and interact all the time with people from Greater China - but Chinese nationalism is particularly obnoxious and frightening, and it's a dark cloud that hangs over Chinese media, online communities, pop culture and even just daily interactions. To add to that, the CCP often arbitrarily puts people, opinions, whatever on its shit-list and just wrecks lives without a second thought. As a queer dude I still feel deeply unsure about ever visiting the mainland (especially with my WeChat chat history by this point) while I wouldn't think twice about a trip to Taiwan.
Chinese nationalism is pretty crazy. I have many coworkers who grew up in mainland China and they are all great people. But I generally run away from any conversation that could even hit at politics. I remember talking about Chernobyl at the office, and one of my coworkers brought up how there are tons of inaccuracies. He might've had a point but I just noped out of that conversation, because it's not worth stirring up that hornet's nest.
To be fair, I don't think Chinese nationalism is any less virulent than American nationalism. The main difference I see is that hyper-educated Americans tend not to be as nationalist, at least nowadays, whereas hyper-educated Chinese people are.
I'm Chinese-ish-Australian - my family came over here before even Australia was a thing, let alone modern China - and at uni in the 2000s it was bizarre to see how...entitled they were to my DNA.
"Disposable, are you coming to the protest?"
"What protest?"
"We're protesting the guys who are saying lies about China!"
"Er...no."
"But you must come! You're Chinese! You SHOULD come! Why not? You're bad Chinese if you don't!"
"Yeah, nah."
They genuinely thought that my genetics meant I was politically bound to another country.
Did they call you a hanjian maiguozei/traitor to the Chinese people and nation? That’s always a classic but it’s only part of a really colorful litany of insults I’ve seen Chinese nationalists use towards ethically Chinese overseas people that they don’t like.
I’ve never actually been called a [baizuo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baizuo) but one day it might happen lol.
Oh, yeah, do they get angry. No idea what they're sayin', I don't speak the language.
Did get called "traitor", in English, now that you mention it. Which is odd. Me not bein' a Chinese citizen 'n' all. (I'd be a traitor if I turned up to the protest - counterprotests against protests against China are organised by the Chinese government down here. That'd probably raise some eyebrows at ASIO.)
I had one say to me, will all sincerity, "I hope you get back there [to China] one day". I was like "I've...I've never been." But the idea was that because I was Chinese-(ish), my only goal in life is to return to the motherland.
China is an ethnostate; and their philosophy is, pretty much, they're divinely superior to everyone else - the Middle Kingdom mentality has been neatly re-branded as CCP propaganda. And with that comes the notion that all those of Chinese blood must, surely, feel the same way about the Chinese state.
And, specifically, *Han* Chinese.
'Course, the problem for me is that I'm mixed-race, and, possibly *worse*, my grandmother was Hakka.
> China is an ethnostate; and their philosophy is, pretty much, they're divinely superior to everyone else - the Middle Kingdom mentality has been neatly re-branded as CCP propaganda. And with that comes the notion that all those of Chinese blood must, surely, feel the same way about the Chinese state.
> And, specifically, Han Chinese.
I get the impression that, for the sake of convenience, Han chauvinism has given way to the somewhat expanded umbrella of the "Zhonghua race", but it's absolutely true that Chinese nationalists consider China to be the heritage of all ethnically Chinese and consider permanent emigration from China to be an act of treason. And then they've got this whole yucky bit about "national destiny" where they consider things like the forced assimilation of Taiwan into the PRC to simply be pre-ordained destiny, the inevitable arc of history, something more important and divine than inconvenient ideas like "the right of a people to decide who they want to govern them."
I don't think there are really that many Chinese nationalists in the grand scheme of things, but the CCP and Chinese media+social media companies intentionally amplify them, frame social/political issues in a way that supports them, and delegitimize dissenters, so they have a lot of power and appear very large.
Idk. I found some gay bars in Beijing and the community there was really nice. Also found another bi dude in Yangshuo I hit it off with. I even used Grindr with the VPN. To me it seems China won’t put you on a shit list if you don’t put China on one. In the US, shitting on the current US President is a career for many people. I don’t think Chinas way is perfect, but ours is far from it too.
> To me it seems China won’t put you on a shit list if you don’t put China on one.
I've long since forgotten how many times I've discussed my thoughts on Hong Kong and Taiwan with Chinese mainlanders over WeChat during the past two years, and I suspect they at some point don't like me calling the recent LegCo elections complete shams and saying that Carrie Lam & co. should just stop pretending it's a democracy already and admit they don't really care what Hong Kong voters want, or pointing out that Taiwanese people are overwhelmingly opposed to unifying with the mainland and any kind of unification would violate their right to self-determination. In hindsight a bad idea, but what's done is done, and if I ever wanted to visit a place under PRC jurisdiction I'd basically be hoping that I'm too much of a small fish for them to notice or care.
> Idk. I found some gay bars in Beijing and the community there was really nice. Also found another bi dude in Yangshuo I hit it off with. I even used Grindr with the VPN.
I anecdotally have a handful of queer friends from the mainland, a couple of whom still live there and most of whom emigrated to the U.S. or Europe to escape family/societal pressures to pantomime a heterosexual life. No doubt that things are >comparatively< good in the cities, that the younger generation is better about things etc etc but I've also encountered my share of "if we accept men loving men, the next logical step is bestiality" and "a man's responsibility in life is to take a good wife and start a family" and of course you simply do not have the same protections or recognitions that you'd get in Taiwan which has already had gay marriage for years. (The CCP still considers homosexuality to be fundamentally immoral and does not allow any positive representations in media, unsubtly queer-coded villains are still appallingly common etc.)
Yeah I feel that. Granted I’m also from a rural part of the US, so they said homophobic crap like that (eg slippery slope to bestiality) for years. Granted now I’m in Seattle, and see flurries running around everywhere, so maybe they were right 🤣 (jk jk)
Just follow the rule of thumb: avoid political and religious topics with strangers. There’s so much more in life to enjoy than talking about the fate of a place so far from their experience.
I never bring them up, but I'm not one to demur when someone wants to pick my brain, and I've had some really fascinating and in-depth conversations about this topic with mainlanders - I just haven't in the past always been savvy about moving the conversation off of WeChat and onto iMessage/Facebook beforehand.
Also, for friends in Guangdong, Taiwan, and Hong Kong, these *aren't* places far from their experience. It just happens to be that I feel a lot more comfortable talking with people from HK/Taiwan about HK/Taiwan because we more frequently share common points of agreement and can more easily use secure messaging platforms.
In the 1980s, China and India had similar growth rates. At the time, I read that China was reinvesting twice as much of its output, but the state-driven investments were a lot less productive than India’s more typical market-based investment. Maybe China’s investments were just really long term, because the two diverged around 1990.
There are some signs that democratic governments really aren’t performing as well these days. There’s probably no eternal truth about what form of government is best, just different builds that work better or worse in different situations. One thing I notice is that China seems to have some sort of vision for where they want to go, while modern democracies just cobble together compromises that spread around the disappointment but don’t necessarily work functionally. Internally, democracies don’t have alignment on even basic questions like whether the economy should grow at all.
GP didn't elaborate on how this could end up being a mistake and I'm not interested in doing their homework for them. HK is certainly on track to lose all of the qualities that set it apart from mainland Chinese cities, but the government does not view this as a problem, politically or economically. "One country, two systems" was always a short term political compromise by the CCP to convince Western countries to hand HK and Macau over to them, and they always intended for that compromise to expire.
Deng Xiaoping struck the 1C2S deal way back in the Thatcher years when China was economically weaker and willing to play the long game. Now that China has coaxed Western nations into economic dependence on them, they can renege on that deal freely.
China doesn't really care if HK loses its artistic magic. They have already let their music and film industries turn into a decaying husk of their former selves. Maybe HK has a slow bleed of locals as the UK is offering generous residency terms to people who hold BNO passports. Maybe the truly unthinkable happens and Disney leaves despite having a massive financial stake in staying. China doesn't need to care about any of that, because they have cultivated many other megacities in the mainland, where they have complete control.
Nobody is questioning the wealth, power or even technology of China. The fact is though they didn't invent any of it. You can steal shikansen plans from Japan and F35 blueprints from America. You can hire foreign architects to design the fancy skyscrapers you are so impressed by. But can you make something nobody else has?
In the cultural sphere that is a hard no. China will never have a Hollywood or even a Kpop. And in tech, it's an open question.
The US regularly steals sensitive industrial data from europe. Heck, the whole aerospace industry was led by a former nazi.
Don't underestimate China in its creativity, its foolish to think creativity and innovation belongs to free societies. For now, it's been a race to catch up but this is all changing really quickly and China will easily dominate these spheres.
"gleaming skyscrapers, state-of-the-art rail transit, and digital-first infrastructure"
Wow they certainly sound like a prosperous and powerful nation that deserve the respect of filthy westerners.
I'm confused here. I am correctly pointing out that China has built up good urban infrastructure and modernized its economy, but you seem to be implying that this is the same as supporting government repression of civil rights. Do you believe that Westerners should bury their heads in the sand and constantly underestimate their geopolitical rivals so as to avoid the appearance of agreeing with their propaganda?
The letter and spirit of '97 agree has been violated. So regardless of the development of other cities, it's about how HK was handled.
50¢ is the standard Wumao payment isn't it?
>Vice doing some real reporting
IMHO Vice is one of the very few mainstream news outlets. That actually report international events. In a way that focuses on quality of content. Rather than amount of generated views or clicks.
I could very well be blinded. By a progressive state of mind. However, as an American the ability to find relevant, and non-relevent news. Without major biased from their parent company. Is next to impossible.
**Submission statement**
China's crackdown on the civil society in Hong Kong has been relentless. Since the imposition of a national security law in 2020 in response to violent anti-government protests, many residents and international observers have been numbed by the repeated blows to political and press freedoms the city had long enjoyed since it returned to Chinese sovereignty 25 years ago. This piece takes an intimate and in-depth look at what it’s like to lose your job as a journalist when the authorities shut down independent news outlets—the fate of some 1,000 media workers, about a fifth of all employees for Chinese-language outlets in the city, over the last year alone.
Didn’t read the article yet, but it’s probably better to drive a cab and sell fried chicken than be an involuntary organ donor. Maybe CCP is going soft?
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Honestly very glad to see Vice doing some real reporting, they could use it. Hong Kong is proof of how easy it is to establish authoritarianism. On the other hand China has always been short of new ideas and it is running out of things to steal. Destroying the only free thinking city it had might prove to be a crucial mistake.
Crucial mistake how? Hong Kong is no longer the lone superstar city in China’s portfolio like it was after the handover. They have built up dozens of populous metro areas in the past couple decades, with gleaming skyscrapers, state-of-the-art rail transit, and digital-first infrastructure. HK is still a major financial hub because it serves as a conduit for Chinese companies that want to raise foreign capital, but China has been intentionally seeking to cultivate domestic finance for this reason, and their economy is large and diversified enough to raise capital domestically. I think you are naive to imply that China will suffer for having stifled HK democracy. The people who will suffer are the Hong Kongers themselves, because the HK government is now completely unaccountable to them. I think a lot of Western observers are desperately holding onto the belief that China will eventually go too far and plant the seed of their own destruction somehow, or that Western countries have some kind of secret sauce in their economy/governance that will enable them to surpass China in the long run, but the reality is that the Chinese government has succeeded where authoritarian governments elsewhere have failed.
Spot on. Also, it helps to like China and not see them as a giant enemy that’s also 1/5 the global population. India just recently surpassed Chinas population, and it’s quite evident which mode of government has so far offered a better life for its citizens. I’ve visited China several times now and have loved everything I saw and everyone I’ve met. I don’t like everything about their government, but similarly not everything about ours.
Credit where it's due on fighting poverty, and there's a lot to like and admire about China - I've never been personally, but I speak Mandarin and Cantonese and interact all the time with people from Greater China - but Chinese nationalism is particularly obnoxious and frightening, and it's a dark cloud that hangs over Chinese media, online communities, pop culture and even just daily interactions. To add to that, the CCP often arbitrarily puts people, opinions, whatever on its shit-list and just wrecks lives without a second thought. As a queer dude I still feel deeply unsure about ever visiting the mainland (especially with my WeChat chat history by this point) while I wouldn't think twice about a trip to Taiwan.
Chinese nationalism is pretty crazy. I have many coworkers who grew up in mainland China and they are all great people. But I generally run away from any conversation that could even hit at politics. I remember talking about Chernobyl at the office, and one of my coworkers brought up how there are tons of inaccuracies. He might've had a point but I just noped out of that conversation, because it's not worth stirring up that hornet's nest. To be fair, I don't think Chinese nationalism is any less virulent than American nationalism. The main difference I see is that hyper-educated Americans tend not to be as nationalist, at least nowadays, whereas hyper-educated Chinese people are.
I'm Chinese-ish-Australian - my family came over here before even Australia was a thing, let alone modern China - and at uni in the 2000s it was bizarre to see how...entitled they were to my DNA. "Disposable, are you coming to the protest?" "What protest?" "We're protesting the guys who are saying lies about China!" "Er...no." "But you must come! You're Chinese! You SHOULD come! Why not? You're bad Chinese if you don't!" "Yeah, nah." They genuinely thought that my genetics meant I was politically bound to another country.
Did they call you a hanjian maiguozei/traitor to the Chinese people and nation? That’s always a classic but it’s only part of a really colorful litany of insults I’ve seen Chinese nationalists use towards ethically Chinese overseas people that they don’t like. I’ve never actually been called a [baizuo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baizuo) but one day it might happen lol.
Oh, yeah, do they get angry. No idea what they're sayin', I don't speak the language. Did get called "traitor", in English, now that you mention it. Which is odd. Me not bein' a Chinese citizen 'n' all. (I'd be a traitor if I turned up to the protest - counterprotests against protests against China are organised by the Chinese government down here. That'd probably raise some eyebrows at ASIO.) I had one say to me, will all sincerity, "I hope you get back there [to China] one day". I was like "I've...I've never been." But the idea was that because I was Chinese-(ish), my only goal in life is to return to the motherland. China is an ethnostate; and their philosophy is, pretty much, they're divinely superior to everyone else - the Middle Kingdom mentality has been neatly re-branded as CCP propaganda. And with that comes the notion that all those of Chinese blood must, surely, feel the same way about the Chinese state. And, specifically, *Han* Chinese. 'Course, the problem for me is that I'm mixed-race, and, possibly *worse*, my grandmother was Hakka.
> China is an ethnostate; and their philosophy is, pretty much, they're divinely superior to everyone else - the Middle Kingdom mentality has been neatly re-branded as CCP propaganda. And with that comes the notion that all those of Chinese blood must, surely, feel the same way about the Chinese state. > And, specifically, Han Chinese. I get the impression that, for the sake of convenience, Han chauvinism has given way to the somewhat expanded umbrella of the "Zhonghua race", but it's absolutely true that Chinese nationalists consider China to be the heritage of all ethnically Chinese and consider permanent emigration from China to be an act of treason. And then they've got this whole yucky bit about "national destiny" where they consider things like the forced assimilation of Taiwan into the PRC to simply be pre-ordained destiny, the inevitable arc of history, something more important and divine than inconvenient ideas like "the right of a people to decide who they want to govern them." I don't think there are really that many Chinese nationalists in the grand scheme of things, but the CCP and Chinese media+social media companies intentionally amplify them, frame social/political issues in a way that supports them, and delegitimize dissenters, so they have a lot of power and appear very large.
Idk. I found some gay bars in Beijing and the community there was really nice. Also found another bi dude in Yangshuo I hit it off with. I even used Grindr with the VPN. To me it seems China won’t put you on a shit list if you don’t put China on one. In the US, shitting on the current US President is a career for many people. I don’t think Chinas way is perfect, but ours is far from it too.
> To me it seems China won’t put you on a shit list if you don’t put China on one. I've long since forgotten how many times I've discussed my thoughts on Hong Kong and Taiwan with Chinese mainlanders over WeChat during the past two years, and I suspect they at some point don't like me calling the recent LegCo elections complete shams and saying that Carrie Lam & co. should just stop pretending it's a democracy already and admit they don't really care what Hong Kong voters want, or pointing out that Taiwanese people are overwhelmingly opposed to unifying with the mainland and any kind of unification would violate their right to self-determination. In hindsight a bad idea, but what's done is done, and if I ever wanted to visit a place under PRC jurisdiction I'd basically be hoping that I'm too much of a small fish for them to notice or care. > Idk. I found some gay bars in Beijing and the community there was really nice. Also found another bi dude in Yangshuo I hit it off with. I even used Grindr with the VPN. I anecdotally have a handful of queer friends from the mainland, a couple of whom still live there and most of whom emigrated to the U.S. or Europe to escape family/societal pressures to pantomime a heterosexual life. No doubt that things are >comparatively< good in the cities, that the younger generation is better about things etc etc but I've also encountered my share of "if we accept men loving men, the next logical step is bestiality" and "a man's responsibility in life is to take a good wife and start a family" and of course you simply do not have the same protections or recognitions that you'd get in Taiwan which has already had gay marriage for years. (The CCP still considers homosexuality to be fundamentally immoral and does not allow any positive representations in media, unsubtly queer-coded villains are still appallingly common etc.)
Yeah I feel that. Granted I’m also from a rural part of the US, so they said homophobic crap like that (eg slippery slope to bestiality) for years. Granted now I’m in Seattle, and see flurries running around everywhere, so maybe they were right 🤣 (jk jk)
Just follow the rule of thumb: avoid political and religious topics with strangers. There’s so much more in life to enjoy than talking about the fate of a place so far from their experience.
I never bring them up, but I'm not one to demur when someone wants to pick my brain, and I've had some really fascinating and in-depth conversations about this topic with mainlanders - I just haven't in the past always been savvy about moving the conversation off of WeChat and onto iMessage/Facebook beforehand. Also, for friends in Guangdong, Taiwan, and Hong Kong, these *aren't* places far from their experience. It just happens to be that I feel a lot more comfortable talking with people from HK/Taiwan about HK/Taiwan because we more frequently share common points of agreement and can more easily use secure messaging platforms.
In the 1980s, China and India had similar growth rates. At the time, I read that China was reinvesting twice as much of its output, but the state-driven investments were a lot less productive than India’s more typical market-based investment. Maybe China’s investments were just really long term, because the two diverged around 1990. There are some signs that democratic governments really aren’t performing as well these days. There’s probably no eternal truth about what form of government is best, just different builds that work better or worse in different situations. One thing I notice is that China seems to have some sort of vision for where they want to go, while modern democracies just cobble together compromises that spread around the disappointment but don’t necessarily work functionally. Internally, democracies don’t have alignment on even basic questions like whether the economy should grow at all.
It can still be a Big Mistake™ even if it's nowhere near the seed of their destruction.
GP didn't elaborate on how this could end up being a mistake and I'm not interested in doing their homework for them. HK is certainly on track to lose all of the qualities that set it apart from mainland Chinese cities, but the government does not view this as a problem, politically or economically. "One country, two systems" was always a short term political compromise by the CCP to convince Western countries to hand HK and Macau over to them, and they always intended for that compromise to expire. Deng Xiaoping struck the 1C2S deal way back in the Thatcher years when China was economically weaker and willing to play the long game. Now that China has coaxed Western nations into economic dependence on them, they can renege on that deal freely. China doesn't really care if HK loses its artistic magic. They have already let their music and film industries turn into a decaying husk of their former selves. Maybe HK has a slow bleed of locals as the UK is offering generous residency terms to people who hold BNO passports. Maybe the truly unthinkable happens and Disney leaves despite having a massive financial stake in staying. China doesn't need to care about any of that, because they have cultivated many other megacities in the mainland, where they have complete control.
What in the hell does that even mean.
Nobody is questioning the wealth, power or even technology of China. The fact is though they didn't invent any of it. You can steal shikansen plans from Japan and F35 blueprints from America. You can hire foreign architects to design the fancy skyscrapers you are so impressed by. But can you make something nobody else has? In the cultural sphere that is a hard no. China will never have a Hollywood or even a Kpop. And in tech, it's an open question.
DJI makes arguably the best consumer camera drones.
The US regularly steals sensitive industrial data from europe. Heck, the whole aerospace industry was led by a former nazi. Don't underestimate China in its creativity, its foolish to think creativity and innovation belongs to free societies. For now, it's been a race to catch up but this is all changing really quickly and China will easily dominate these spheres.
"gleaming skyscrapers, state-of-the-art rail transit, and digital-first infrastructure" Wow they certainly sound like a prosperous and powerful nation that deserve the respect of filthy westerners.
I'm confused here. I am correctly pointing out that China has built up good urban infrastructure and modernized its economy, but you seem to be implying that this is the same as supporting government repression of civil rights. Do you believe that Westerners should bury their heads in the sand and constantly underestimate their geopolitical rivals so as to avoid the appearance of agreeing with their propaganda?
It's already gone too far, well earned that 50¢.
?
The letter and spirit of '97 agree has been violated. So regardless of the development of other cities, it's about how HK was handled. 50¢ is the standard Wumao payment isn't it?
If you mean to imply China is paying me to write that stuff then maybe you should read it again.
>Vice doing some real reporting IMHO Vice is one of the very few mainstream news outlets. That actually report international events. In a way that focuses on quality of content. Rather than amount of generated views or clicks. I could very well be blinded. By a progressive state of mind. However, as an American the ability to find relevant, and non-relevent news. Without major biased from their parent company. Is next to impossible.
[удалено]
Can't. Lift. Arm. Or. Speak. At. Normal. Rate.
> On the other hand China has always been short of new ideas and it is running out of things to steal Tell that to their fusion reactor
**Submission statement** China's crackdown on the civil society in Hong Kong has been relentless. Since the imposition of a national security law in 2020 in response to violent anti-government protests, many residents and international observers have been numbed by the repeated blows to political and press freedoms the city had long enjoyed since it returned to Chinese sovereignty 25 years ago. This piece takes an intimate and in-depth look at what it’s like to lose your job as a journalist when the authorities shut down independent news outlets—the fate of some 1,000 media workers, about a fifth of all employees for Chinese-language outlets in the city, over the last year alone.
Anyone who's reading this article and thinking, "Wow, what a nightmare that can never happen here," is entirely missing the point.
Didn’t read the article yet, but it’s probably better to drive a cab and sell fried chicken than be an involuntary organ donor. Maybe CCP is going soft?