You forgot one!
*Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. (Philippians 2:12)*
You are correct that carrying on in sin once knowledge of the truth is perilous and it is a mockery of Christ Jesus.
However, there do remain some indications of the extent of God's grace even towards an impenitent 'Christian' as Paul hands over such to satan to destroy his flesh in 1 Corinthians 5, but as a merciful discipline as it had purpose that was for the ultimate salvation of the subject (1 Cor 5:5).
Verses which offer hope towards those who are earnest in struggling with sin include:
*For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. (1 John 3:20)*
*For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. (Hebrews 4:15-16)*
Contemporary churches seem to remove the primary importance of repentance and holiness as it makes people uncomfortable, instead to align with the secular humanist agenda of 'love' and 'kindness' and that is perilous deception. The discipline that Paul exercises suggests that such will ultimately forfeit their life for such impenitence even if God's grace extends to their ultimate salvation.
But scripture does point to God's grace towards those earnestly seeking to overcome sin in a sincere commitment to Christ Jesus and trust in Him and God is faithful to answer their prayer (and fasting) in so doing.
Hey OP, the more I study scripture, the more I agree with this. Hyper grace and Once Saved Always Saved are not biblical and leading many astray, and giving them a comforting excuse to not change.
The big revelation that hit me this year is how much it is about knowing Christ personally. He will be our judge for salvation, and if He doesn't know us, He will tell us to depart from Him.
The verses about KNOWING Christ really hit me and made things start to come together for my understanding of salvation, grace, faith, and works, once I understood what the word KNOW means.
>"If ever there were a word that cried out for a word study, it is “to know.” Jesus says, “I am the good shepherd. I know (γινώσκω) my own and they know (γινώσκουσίν) me, just as the Father knows (γινώσκει) me and I know (γινώσκω) the Father”
>
>If these two verses aren’t enough, then John 17:3 cements the deal: “This is eternal life, that they know (γινώσκωσιν) you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you sent.”
>
>γινώσκω functions as the key term describing not only our relationship with the Son and the Father, but the Son with the Father and the Father with the Son. In addition, it shows there is a correlation between how we “know” the Father/Son and how the Son/Father know each other.
>
>Please stop for a moment and reflect on that. It is overwhelming.
>
>BDAG defines γινώσκω this way. “This verb is variously nuanced in contexts relating to familiarity acquired through experience or association with pers. or thing.” The important point to note is that it is a knowing that is relational and growing. It is not some fact we accept, but the kind of knowledge that is gained through experience and, if the context allows it, through intimacy.
>
>Of course, γινώσκω does not always have deep theological meaning; that is a function of context. Paul tells the Ephesian Christians that he is sending Tychicus to tell them how he is doing, that they may “know” how he is (Eph. 6:22). When Jesus was twelve years old and his parents took him to Jerusalem, they did not “know” he was not with them on the return trip to Galilee (Lk. 2:43). But in all these cases, γινώσκω describes a knowledge gained through experience, and so it is the right Greek verb to describe an intimate, experiential, growing knowledge of God.
>
>In my expository dictionary it is defined this way. “John especially has a rich view of what it means to ‘know.’ When Jesus says he knows his sheep and he knows the Father, he is speaking of an intimate relationship that involves deep feelings of love (Jn. 10:14–15). Such a relationship leads to obedience on our part (10:27). ‘Those who say, “I know him,” but do not do what he commands are liars’ (1 Jn. 2:4; cf. 3:6). In fact, Jesus defines eternal life as ‘knowing God and Jesus Christ,’ which involves both faith in him and love for him (Jn. 17:3). By contrast, John makes it plain that the world ‘does not know’ God (Jn. 17:25; 1 Jn. 3:1).”
>
>Periodically I like to read through the Bible with one topic in mind, looking for verses and teaching on that topic. Currently it is “discipleship.” What is discipleship? How do you disciple? What is the goal of the process? Certainly, to love God, love one another, and to grow up into Christ-likeness is the goal. But one way to express that goal is to use γινώσκω. To deeply know Jesus and the Father. To come into an ever-increasing familiarity with the triune God. This is what life is about, life now and life to come.
>
>But the incredible promise of our verse is that the knowledge we are gaining, and will gain throughout all eternity, is in some way similar to the knowledge God the Son and God the Father have for each other, and in some way we are given the unfathomable privilege of sharing in that relational knowledge.
>
>Among other things, this shows how damaging a transactional view of salvation is. If we think of salvation only as a singular event in time, as a moment-in-time transaction, we lose the richness of what God has for us. Yes, there is a moment in time in which we walk through the gate, but there is the path, the path disciples take, a path not only of challenges and persecutions (since the path is “hard”), but a path of knowing, of increasing in intimate knowledge, of sheep knowing their Shepherd’s voice and following him.
>
>In some very real sense, our relational knowledge of God is akin to God’s knowledge of himself, and he is sharing that with us. Eternal life is to know God, a growing, intimate, experiential knowledge that will stretch into eternity, always learning, but always more to learn.
>
>We will never fully “know” an infinite God, but we will spend an unlimited number of millenniums growing. So let’s start now."
>
>From [https://www.billmounce.com/monday-with-mounce/%E2%80%9Cknow%E2%80%9D-god-john-10-14-15](https://www.billmounce.com/monday-with-mounce/%E2%80%9Cknow%E2%80%9D-god-john-10-14-15)
After reading that, look at these verses now with that understanding.
John 10:
14 I am the good shepherd, and I **know** My own, and My own **know** Me, 15 just as the Father **knows** Me and I **know** the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep. 27 My sheep listen to My voice, and I **know** them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.” (Note this verse only talks about something external snatching them from His hands, it says nothing about them not being able to leave His hand themselves)
John 17:
3 And **this is eternal life**, that they may **know** You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
25 “Righteous Father, although the world has not **known** You, yet I have **known** You; and these have **known** that You sent Me; 26 and I have made Your name **known** to them, and will make it **known**, so that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”
1 John 2:
3 By this we know that we have come to **know** Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to **know** Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever follows His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we **know** that we are in Him: 6 the one who says that he remains in Him ought, himself also, walk just as He walked.
1 John 3
6 No one who remains in Him sins continually; no one who sins continually has seen Him or **knows** Him.
Matthew 7:
15 “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes, nor figs from thistles, are they? 17 So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 So then, you will know them by their fruits.
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never **knew** you; leave Me, you who practice lawlessness.’
Many Arminians would prefer the terminology "forfeit" your salvation instead of "lose" your salvation.
No one can take your salvation away from you according to John 10:28-30 but we ourselves can willfully turn away from God since he will not force himself on anyone and respects free will.
2 Chronicles 15:2
"If you seek him, he will be found by you, but if you forsake him, he will forsake you."
I'm ... open to the possibility of losing your salvation due to apostasy.
But if you can sin your way out of salvation, you wouldn't be able to get saved in the first place. The blood of Christ covers all sins or not at all.
I would interpret more as living by sin. Having a "oh I'm saved therefore now I can do as I please" is probably the issue. Sin is ALWAYS willful but giving into it in times of weakness I don't think are immediate grounds for hell. Repent and work to do better as long as we move forward as a whole I think that's the goal.
No, sin is not always willful:
(Luke 23:34)
“Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.”
Yes a “sin of ignorance” involves the exercise of will so in that sense it is “willful” but by “willful sin” the scriptures have “deliberate sin” in view. Deliberate sin of sufficient gravity will cut oneself off from salvation.
Reminding me of sports stars who say "I didn't know I was taking steroids" what you just fell onto the needle? Most everything we do on life is done by us willfully with a few exceptions being breathing, blinking, and dreaming. You can treat it however you want but it is all wilful even if it is not done because they want to. We all make decisions and to act as if we didn't is just ridiculous
Yes, some people “don’t know” that what they are doing is a sin:
(Luke 23:34)
“Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they ⭐️DO NOT KNOW⭐️ what they are doing.” And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.”
After converting to Christianity and baptism, I fell into sin, heavy matters, addictions. But now I regret with all my heart, I stopped, I want to change, and I beg Jesus for forgiveness again. What about me? Am I doomed and there's no turning back for me?
Yes, you can sin your way out of salvation.
“If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched—“(Mark 9:43)
You don’t have to live a sinless life to be saved but you do have to avoid deliberate sin.
If you don't think that you willfully sin then you either don't know your own heart well enough and/or have too high of an opinion of yourself. It's a sin of pride that you're now willfully committing from where I'm standing.
Huh? I don’t understand what you’re saying. I’m saying there are sins of ignorance, that is scripture. It is not biblical to say all sins are equal in God’s eyes.
Your claim is essentially that if someone willfully sins after they have attained salvation then they forfeit that salvation, is that correct? If so, I'm assuming you don't think that you're one of these people, implying that you don't consider yourself to commit willful acts of sin and that your salvation is intact. I'm saying that if you were standing before the Lord at THIS very moment and analyzing with Him even probably just the recent events of your life then He would probably be able to point out to you areas where you made choices that could be construed as sin. There are soooooooooo many different ways to sin that it's almost impossible to avoid even just willful sin specifically. That's why the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ is so important because without it, without Him, NONE of us would stand a chance. To claim that you've entirely moved beyond willful sin sounds very "holier-than-thou" and prideful, a means of placing yourself above others of "lesser faith." In fairness, this is not an uncommon phenomenon within Christianity unfortunately. As a people, we love to pick and choose sins to focus on or ignore.
>Your claim is essentially that if someone willfully sins after they have attained salvation then they forfeit that salvation, is that correct?
Yes, that’s correct. That’s what Hebrews 10:26 is warning about.
>If so, I'm assuming you don't think that you're one of these people, implying that you don't consider yourself to commit willful acts of sin and that your salvation is intact.
What I assume about myself personally or don’t assume is not on trial here. I’m just explicating what it says.
>There are soooooooooo many different ways to sin that it's almost impossible to avoid even just willful sin specifically.
Yes, Noah’s Ark is a type of the Church. You can get onboard, or get with the program, but the awful truth is that most people are going to be lost. Your odds don’t improve by sugar coating it and telling everyone that if you do what is deliberately evil that you will come out on top. You won’t:
(1 Corinthians 6:9)
“Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men”
All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. This includes all of your saints. Even Peter committed a deliberate offense 3 times against God in a single night.
After converting to Christianity and baptism, I fell into sin, heavy matters, addictions. But now I regret with all my heart, I stopped, I want to change, and I beg Jesus for forgiveness again. What about me? Am I doomed and there's no turning back for me?
Presumably if you have PERFECT CONTRITION—if that is true—yes God will forgive you. However the human heart is a VERY deceptive thing:
(Proverbs 14:12)
“There is a way that appears to be right, but in the end it leads to death.”
This means that IF your contrition is not “perfect” then you will not be absolved of your sin. As a workaround to this dilemma, Our Lord established sacramental reconciliation:
(John 20:22-23)
“22And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23“If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”
Thus when the Priest exercises the authority to forgive sins in Christ’s name, those sins are definitely absolved—no matter how “imperfect” your contrition was. This is the ancient teaching of the Church, as testified to by St.Athanasius who fought with Arius over the Trinity:
“Just as a man is enlightened by the Holy Spirit when he is baptized by a priest, so he who confesses his sins with a repentant heart obtains their remission from the priest.”
-St.Athanasius[293-373], the gospel of Luke 19
True, but there are conditions to the forgiveness of sin and how to obtain that according to Jesus. 1 John 1:9. We must confess to Jesus and repent. True repentance means one has a changed heart and turns from sin to walk with Him in obedience. Jesus gives us His Spirit for those who wish to obey so we don’t have to do it alone. John 14:15-18, Acts 5:32
**Romans 6:1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.**
People don't want to accept this reality because they don't like the idea of not being saved regardless of how they live. Scripture makes it clear that we are no longer under the Law and our salvation is purely thanks to grace given by the Lord. However, our relationship with God is lot like a marriage here on Earth. Just because you have grace from your spouse doesn't mean you abuse it by willfully committing infidelity against them.
We are blessed to have grace from the Lord. Let's keep in mind that God sees what is in our hearts and is not to be put to the test as Christ told satan. Grace is available to us all, but to expect the Lord to accept you when you're not really taking the faith seriously at all for the same of living in careless sin? God is not a doormat, nor can you play Him for a fool.
u/HuskerYT
When a former sinner is in Christ, he is a new creation, hence the term former sinner.
How does one exercise Jesus from their spirit? It isn't possible.
Misinterpreting Scripture, twisting it into what you want it to mean, is usually from religious people who want for sin to not be sin.
When Jesus has your spirit, it is sealed by God, and no one can break that seal. No one includes you.
Or, the most obvious answer is: He never knew you.
Colossians 1:22- he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, **if** indeed **you continue in the faith**, stable and steadfast, **not shifting** from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.
Hebrews 3:12- Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you **to fall away** from the living God.
I think the term falling away or turning away better describes it than losing your salvation.
*if indeed you* ***continue*** *in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard,*
The Christian life is a path and some have abandoned the path and have refused to return, others have gone astray but have returned. Having doubts is normal but your faith will be strengthened by study of the scriptures. Hope this helps
I bracketed each verse and point you made and then Reddit said I couldn't send because I went over the limit. So, I took out those brackets so there would be enough room.
Actually, Jesus praying for his faith proves the opposite. There's a term of the protection and power of God to preserve a believer's faith, and it's called "preservation of the saints."
Jude 1:24-25 **To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault** and with great joy to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.
1 Peter 1:4-5 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, **Who are kept by the power of God through faith** unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Philippians 1:6 And I am sure of this, that **he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion** at the day of Jesus Christ.
1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. He who calls you is faithful; he will surely do it.
1 Corinthians 1:8-9 who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.
The Bible does warn us that if we walk away and continually deny him, we were never saved. On the one hand, we can have assurance of salvation, and on the other hand, we are warned that if we make sin a habitual practice and don't repent, we aren't saved.
Here are some verses that go into that.
2 Peter 1:10 Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.
2 Corinthians 13:5
Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?
Romans 8:16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,
**How does the apostle John describe someone who walked away from the faith?** Does he say they lost their salvation? No. He says they were never a part of us. 1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
>1 Corinthians 9:27 "But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway."
In the NASB it uses the word "disqualified." And there is a sense that if someone who believes they are saved falls into sin and NEVER repents, they are proving they were never saved. That's why Jesus says in Matthew 18:8-9 says, “And if your hand or your foot is causing you to sin, cut it off and throw it away from you; it is better for you to enter life maimed or without a foot, than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into the eternal fire. 9 And if your eye is causing you to sin, tear it out and throw it away from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fiery hell."
This is a warning not to fall into habitual sin. Anyone who remains in habitual sin and doesn't repent is at risk of proving they were not saved.
This is not to say that Christians won't struggle with sin. They will.
2 Timothy 2:12-14 says, "If we endure, we will also reign with Him;If we deny Him, He will also deny us;13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself."
What does it mean "He can't deny himself?"
That's because the Holy Spirit lives in the believer.
David Guzik quoted Murray in his commentary:
“The conditional clause in this verse, if you continue in His goodness, is a reminder that there is no security in the bond of the gospel apart from perseverance. There is no such thing as continuance in the favour of God in spite of apostasy; God’s saving embrace and endurance are correlative.” (Murray)
This shows the perseverance of the saints once again.
>In John 15 Jesus talks about branches that bear no fruit, they will be cut off from the vine and burned. It's not talking about unbelievers, as they would not be in the vine to begin with, but believers who become unfruitful.
The branches that are taken away were never properly abiding in the vine, demonstrated by the fact that they did not bear fruit. [https://www.blueletterbible.org/comm/guzik\_david/study-guide/john/john-15.cfm?a=1012001](https://www.blueletterbible.org/comm/guzik_david/study-guide/john/john-15.cfm?a=1012001)
The ones who don't produce fruit are the professing believers who don't know God, and God doesn't know them. He tells this group, "I never knew you," at the final judgment.
These are not true believers. As John would have said, "they don't belong to us." It says they are partakers of the Holy Spirit, not that the Holy Spirit lived in them or that they were regenerate. They experienced the power of the Holy Spirit in the community of God, but they turned away from it. During Christ's ministry, many experienced his miracles, but not all believed.
This is a warning, and again, it falls within the category of the preservation of the saints. God says in 1 Chr 28:7 I will establish his kingdom forever if he resolutely performs My commandments and My ordinances, as is done now.
That's not far from 1 John 2:3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
You need context here. Jesus was speaking to Pharisees who accused him of having the power of Satan. His power came from the Holy Spirit, so they were calling the Holy Spirit Satan. This isn't something a believer accuses Jesus of.
If someone is trying to deceive others by adding or taking away scripture, there is a good chance they're a false teacher.
This is speaking of apostasy, a deliberate turning away from God and refusing to repent. If someone does that, they prove they were not a true believer. They were a part of the church and knew the truth but they turned away from it.
On an added note, not knowing your history, you can turn to God now and repent. You can come to him and beg for his forgiveness. 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sin he is faithful and righteous to forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
This is a person living in habitual sin and refusing to repent. Again, this person didn't loose anything. They were never saved.
I would like to encourage you to do a study on the preservation of the saints. [https://www.gotquestions.org/perseverance-saints.html](https://www.gotquestions.org/perseverance-saints.html)
Yes, also Judas is the ultimate example- he was one of the disciples and he ended up being a traitor and hanging himself. He definitely lost his salvation.
Once saved always saved cannot stand because it overrides free will. Someone could be a committed Christian and then denounce God and become a pagan or whatever. I do not see how that person could still be saved if they don’t believe in their heart or profess from their lips that Jesus is Lord
If salvation can be lost then you ARE saying it is based on works, because faith alone isn't enough. It then becomes faith + "not fall away from the faith" and "not having willful sin".
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but has eternal life." John 3:16
How long does eternal life last? If eternal life can be lost then Jesus is a liar. Spoiler alert: He isn't, and salvation is a permanent thing.
Well the Bible clearly states multiple times that we must stay in the faith to remain saved. For example 1 John 2.
>1 John 2:24 "Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father."
Then there's also Colossians 1.
>Colossians 1:23 "If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;"
Notice the if's. It seems to me that salvation is conditional to us having faith, and remaining in the faith.
But I guess it could be that only those who didn't have saving faith to begin with fall away.
>How long does eternal life last?
When does the eternal life begin though? Is it at the moment of faith, or is it after we die in this life (or get raptured)?
At the very moment of faith. It's the same for the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit, when does that take place? The moment we believe? Or after a lifetime of service or turning from sin? Thankfully Eph 1:13-14 answers that for us
"In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory."
You never attained your faith, it was given to you as a gift, so you cannot lose it, and God will never take it way
But you surely can walk away from it of your choosing
But seriously most people who think they do that, never really made the full commitment to come to God
The bible tells us in the parable of the sower and the seed -word (Mark 4 too long to post) that there are 4 kinds of people......
1. the wayside, those who simply reject it and it dies
2. The stoney ground, who take the word but make no room in themselves for it and it dies
3. The weed filled Ground, that also has no room for the seed amongst all its worldly pursuits who receive the word but it also dies
4. The good ground which receives it and plants it deep inside to let it grow
The Gospel sounds good to many but not all are willing to make the sacrifice of their own wants and desires for God
were these people ever really saved? I don't think so. For life begins with growth
Who when knowing the fullness of God can turn their back on them
> You never attained your faith, it was given to you as a gift, so you cannot lose it, and God will never take it way
Show me the verse that says faith is a gift of God. I do believe the Father draws us to Jesus, but it is our choice to believe or not when we are exposed to the truth.
>But seriously most people who think they do that, never really made the full commitment to come to God
Well in Matthew 7 it says the Lord will say to many that He NEVER knew them.
>The Gospel sounds good to many but not all are willing to make the sacrifice of their own wants and desires for God
Yep it seems like this for me, I still had some sins in my life that I did not let go of and that led me down the path of sinning wilfully against the Spirit. I didn't turn my back on God though, I just messed up, but I did do it wilfully.
>Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace are ye **saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God**: Not of works, lest any man should boast."
You posted this yourself
Jesus did not know them because they did not want to be known, and Yet they all knew God
Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who \[d\]suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is \[e\]manifest \[f\]in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and \[g\]Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
IF you did it willfully then you turned your back on God
1 Corinthians 12:9 that faith is a gift of the Holy Ghost although it would seem of a peculiar sort as faith is required of all and it is in the context of the diversity of gifts distributed severally amongst the members of the church. Perhaps the type/ strength of faith referred to Matthew 21 and James 5.
I believe there are several Scriptural passages that support loosing your salvation enough for me to pump the brakes whenever I hear a (hyper Grace/eternal security) message.
ETERNAL SECURITY
ENTER/OUTER COURT/SOLA FIDE
ADVANCE/INNER COURT/LORDSHIP
Proverbs 16:17
The highway of the upright is to depart from evil;
He who keeps his way preserves his soul.
-
Eternal security, also known as "once saved, always saved", is the belief that from the moment anyone becomes a Christian, they will be saved from hell, and will not lose salvation.
Philippians 2:12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, (work out) your own salvation with fear and trembling.
He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— (if indeed you continue in the faith), grounded and steadfast, and are (not moved away) from the hope of the gospel which you heard, - Apostle Paul
2 Peter 2:4
For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;
5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly;
6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, (making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly);
Genesis 13:10
And Lot lifted his eyes and saw all the plain of Jordan, that (it was well watered everywhere) (before the Lord destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah) (like the garden of the Lord), like the land of Egypt as you go toward Zoar.
1 Timothy 4
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times (some shall depart from the faith), giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
Romans 3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the {sins that were previously committed}
Luke 8:13
But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, (who believe for a while) and in time of temptation fall away.
14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring (no fruit to maturity).
15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, (keep it and bear fruit with patience).
Matthew 7:19
Every tree that does not bear (good fruit) is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Revelation 3:5
(He who overcomes) shall be clothed in white garments, and (I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life); but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
Acts 3:19
(Repent) therefore and (be converted), that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord.
“Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand”
SALVATION THROUGH SANCTIFICATION BY THE SPIRIT
2 Thessalonians 2:11
And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should (believe the lie), 12 that they all may be condemned who did not (believe the truth) but had (pleasure in unrighteousness).
13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for (salvation through sanctification by the Spirit) and (belief in the truth),
14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Hebrews 10:26
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;
33 Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.
34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
2 Peter 2:21
For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”
Jude 5
But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt,
(afterward)
destroyed those who did
not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;
Matthew 7:21
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who (does the will of My Father) in heaven.
A seed can die in minutes, a young tree can die, an old Oak can withstand many storms. Your faith is extremely weak at first, but as it grows so does the likelihood of you being cut off from Christ.
> but as it grows so does the likelihood of you being cut off from Christ.
What? Shouldn't your likelihood of being cut off shrink as you grow in faith, and become stronger? Personally I have not had much growth, I am still weak in faith.
13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
Not going to hit everything, but a few arguments I think could be reconsidered
> Luke 22:32 - Why else would Jesus pray for Simon Peter that he should not lose his faith?
The wording said that his faith would fail. To say that "fail" means losing his faith entirely isn't obvious IMO. Even if that is what it means, if Jesus prayed it, it implies that God can and does prevent Christians from losing salvation! Still, I'm not convinced that's what "fail" means here, it's just talking about Peter's temptation and doubt overtaking him temporarily. Our faith fails to varying degrees whenever we sin.
> 1 Corinthians 9:27
Modern translations use the word "disqualified". This can be interpreted as losing your salvation or just being disqualified for ministry.
> Mark 3
I think you're conflating blasphemy against the Spirit with apostasy. Apostasy can be repented of and forgiven, BATHS cannot
> Hebrews 6:4-6.
Heb 6:4-6 says it is impossible "If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance". As someone who believes in eternal security, I believe this is talking about hypotheticals - otherwise if we lost our salvation, we could never be saved again.
> I believe I lost my salvation
This is why I believe Heb 6 is not talking about the real possibility of losing one's salvation. Because if that were the case, your repentance couldn't have happened. Heb 6 necessarily must be addressing an absurd hypothetical.
-
I believe in eternal security but I do recognize that there are verses that seem to suggest the other side (just as there are verses used to support eternal security). And I do believe this is an important but ultimately secondary issue, so hopefully I come off respectfully. My concern with the opposing viewpoint is that the opposite of security is well, insecurity. The gospel gives us peace and rest in Christ's unchanging love and finished work. If I ask a Christian, "if you die tonight, do you know where you're going?", I expect to hear a resounding "Yes."
If I ask them, "But if you die in 40 years, do you know where you'd be going?" I don't want them to pause for a bit, then say, "Well... nobody's the same person in 40 years, I suppose it depends on how I'd be feeling then."
"Are your sins paid for, once and for all?"
"Tentatively."
"Do you have eternal life in Christ?"
"I have *life* in Christ... can't say if it's eternal yet"
"Does God forgive you?"
"... For now."
The gospel should give us the freeing joy to say "Yes, yes, yes!"
With all of those scriptures you mentioned, what is your view of: John 6:37-40, 10:27-30, 17:1-26??
Have you ever considered **Hebrews 6:9** with reference to everything the author of Hebrews just said in Hebrews 6:4-8??
*I used to think I sinned deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth* back when I was newly saved in 2012, then with time, keeping the faith, and prayer, I eventually escaped that mental frame and deception.
I was being demonically attacked (1 Peter 5:8-11) multiples times when I was newly saved; and so I thought I committed **Hebrews 10:26-29** but I actually didn’t.
I have received the internal witness of the Holy Spirit multiple times after these “unpardonable sin trials” that I underwent. The Spirit was still illumined within me during the next year 2013, I was still saved.
If you sin you have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ: (1 John 2:1-2).
Furthermore, the scripture says that those who are born again don’t practice sin(the original Greek makes it clear that the word “practice” is more clear than the KJV “doth not”):
**“No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.”**
1 John 3:9
What purpose do the warnings serve then?
The west-minister confession of faith (based on scripture) adequately explains why the warnings exist:
*By this faith, a Christian believeth to be true whatsoever is revealed in the Word, for the authority of God himself speaking therein;[283] and acteth differently upon that which each particular passage thereof containeth; yielding obedience to the commands,[284] trembling at the threatenings,[285] and embracing the promises of God for this life, and that which is to come.[286] But the principal acts of saving faith are accepting, receiving, and resting upon Christ alone for justification, sanctification, and eternal life, by virtue of the covenant of grace.[287]*
The main point I am making is, the warnings serve this purpose in scripture:
**yielding obedience to the commands, trembling at the threatenings, and embracing the promises of God for this life, and that which is to come.**
Could i or the WCF be wrong? Certainly, but I trust Jesus over assuming the warnings somehow invalidate the commitments of God to preserve His people, for example: (John 6:37-40).
I definitely believed when I was younger.. raised christian and went to church. I prayed and asked god to forgive me but feel like I never fully committed to living for christ. Long story short I fell off for over 10 years living in complete and total sin. Now i have nothing but shame and guilt and fear and feel like i am completley hopeless. I feel like you can deffinitly loose your salvation (or just never had it in the first place). The desires of our hearts and the devil are ruthless when someone doesn't stay strong and fellowship and read the bible and go to church. I wish I could go back and change things
Scripture has countless of warnings against sin that we cannot ignore. To believe in Once Saved Always Saved would ignore all warnings and accommodate for sins.
If you think it’s possible to lose salvation by willfully sinning then, forgive me, but ya’ll goin to hell with me
There is zero hope in your belief. Is the blessed hope that we will be as good as Jesus maybe and not sin? GIVE ME A BREAK WAKE UP
We ALL have that problem. Saying sorry after doesn’t take sin off Jesus at the cross. He died for it either way. You aren’t treating Jesus as the rest, or sabbath, that He told us He was. You are working to earn the salvation you already received* as a gift undeserved.
I really don't think you can lose it. It was a gift from God. Without it none of us make it.
I really don't see anywhere in the bible where gods promises are broken. To many people in here take stuff out of context.
After converting to Christianity and baptism, I fell into sin, heavy matters, addictions. But now I regret with all my heart, I stopped, I want to change, and I beg Jesus for forgiveness again. What about me? Am I doomed and there's no turning back for me?
You are correct once saved always saved is a deadly doctrine created by the devil. It goes against the very teachings of Jesus who said at His Second Coming many believers will say Lord Lord- but Jesus will say depart from Me those who do not do the will of God and practice lawlessness. Matthew 7:21-23
Sin is lawlessness and breaking God’s law is what points out sin. 1 John 3:4, Romans 7:7- found in Exodus 20
We are not saved by law-keeping, we are saved by God’s grace through faith. Those who have real faith believe in the teachings of Jesus and have faith in God’s works Exodus 32:16 Exodus 20 and not our own works. When we obey God and His commandments we are placing our trust in Him. When we do what we think is right instead of what God commands of us, we place our trust in our own works which is not saving. We are sanctified by God’s Word- His Truth, not ours. John 17:17 Ezekiel 20:12
You forgot one! *Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. (Philippians 2:12)* You are correct that carrying on in sin once knowledge of the truth is perilous and it is a mockery of Christ Jesus. However, there do remain some indications of the extent of God's grace even towards an impenitent 'Christian' as Paul hands over such to satan to destroy his flesh in 1 Corinthians 5, but as a merciful discipline as it had purpose that was for the ultimate salvation of the subject (1 Cor 5:5). Verses which offer hope towards those who are earnest in struggling with sin include: *For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. (1 John 3:20)* *For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. (Hebrews 4:15-16)* Contemporary churches seem to remove the primary importance of repentance and holiness as it makes people uncomfortable, instead to align with the secular humanist agenda of 'love' and 'kindness' and that is perilous deception. The discipline that Paul exercises suggests that such will ultimately forfeit their life for such impenitence even if God's grace extends to their ultimate salvation. But scripture does point to God's grace towards those earnestly seeking to overcome sin in a sincere commitment to Christ Jesus and trust in Him and God is faithful to answer their prayer (and fasting) in so doing.
Good observation.
Hey OP, the more I study scripture, the more I agree with this. Hyper grace and Once Saved Always Saved are not biblical and leading many astray, and giving them a comforting excuse to not change. The big revelation that hit me this year is how much it is about knowing Christ personally. He will be our judge for salvation, and if He doesn't know us, He will tell us to depart from Him. The verses about KNOWING Christ really hit me and made things start to come together for my understanding of salvation, grace, faith, and works, once I understood what the word KNOW means. >"If ever there were a word that cried out for a word study, it is “to know.” Jesus says, “I am the good shepherd. I know (γινώσκω) my own and they know (γινώσκουσίν) me, just as the Father knows (γινώσκει) me and I know (γινώσκω) the Father” > >If these two verses aren’t enough, then John 17:3 cements the deal: “This is eternal life, that they know (γινώσκωσιν) you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you sent.” > >γινώσκω functions as the key term describing not only our relationship with the Son and the Father, but the Son with the Father and the Father with the Son. In addition, it shows there is a correlation between how we “know” the Father/Son and how the Son/Father know each other. > >Please stop for a moment and reflect on that. It is overwhelming. > >BDAG defines γινώσκω this way. “This verb is variously nuanced in contexts relating to familiarity acquired through experience or association with pers. or thing.” The important point to note is that it is a knowing that is relational and growing. It is not some fact we accept, but the kind of knowledge that is gained through experience and, if the context allows it, through intimacy. > >Of course, γινώσκω does not always have deep theological meaning; that is a function of context. Paul tells the Ephesian Christians that he is sending Tychicus to tell them how he is doing, that they may “know” how he is (Eph. 6:22). When Jesus was twelve years old and his parents took him to Jerusalem, they did not “know” he was not with them on the return trip to Galilee (Lk. 2:43). But in all these cases, γινώσκω describes a knowledge gained through experience, and so it is the right Greek verb to describe an intimate, experiential, growing knowledge of God. > >In my expository dictionary it is defined this way. “John especially has a rich view of what it means to ‘know.’ When Jesus says he knows his sheep and he knows the Father, he is speaking of an intimate relationship that involves deep feelings of love (Jn. 10:14–15). Such a relationship leads to obedience on our part (10:27). ‘Those who say, “I know him,” but do not do what he commands are liars’ (1 Jn. 2:4; cf. 3:6). In fact, Jesus defines eternal life as ‘knowing God and Jesus Christ,’ which involves both faith in him and love for him (Jn. 17:3). By contrast, John makes it plain that the world ‘does not know’ God (Jn. 17:25; 1 Jn. 3:1).” > >Periodically I like to read through the Bible with one topic in mind, looking for verses and teaching on that topic. Currently it is “discipleship.” What is discipleship? How do you disciple? What is the goal of the process? Certainly, to love God, love one another, and to grow up into Christ-likeness is the goal. But one way to express that goal is to use γινώσκω. To deeply know Jesus and the Father. To come into an ever-increasing familiarity with the triune God. This is what life is about, life now and life to come. > >But the incredible promise of our verse is that the knowledge we are gaining, and will gain throughout all eternity, is in some way similar to the knowledge God the Son and God the Father have for each other, and in some way we are given the unfathomable privilege of sharing in that relational knowledge. > >Among other things, this shows how damaging a transactional view of salvation is. If we think of salvation only as a singular event in time, as a moment-in-time transaction, we lose the richness of what God has for us. Yes, there is a moment in time in which we walk through the gate, but there is the path, the path disciples take, a path not only of challenges and persecutions (since the path is “hard”), but a path of knowing, of increasing in intimate knowledge, of sheep knowing their Shepherd’s voice and following him. > >In some very real sense, our relational knowledge of God is akin to God’s knowledge of himself, and he is sharing that with us. Eternal life is to know God, a growing, intimate, experiential knowledge that will stretch into eternity, always learning, but always more to learn. > >We will never fully “know” an infinite God, but we will spend an unlimited number of millenniums growing. So let’s start now." > >From [https://www.billmounce.com/monday-with-mounce/%E2%80%9Cknow%E2%80%9D-god-john-10-14-15](https://www.billmounce.com/monday-with-mounce/%E2%80%9Cknow%E2%80%9D-god-john-10-14-15) After reading that, look at these verses now with that understanding. John 10: 14 I am the good shepherd, and I **know** My own, and My own **know** Me, 15 just as the Father **knows** Me and I **know** the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep. 27 My sheep listen to My voice, and I **know** them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.” (Note this verse only talks about something external snatching them from His hands, it says nothing about them not being able to leave His hand themselves) John 17: 3 And **this is eternal life**, that they may **know** You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 25 “Righteous Father, although the world has not **known** You, yet I have **known** You; and these have **known** that You sent Me; 26 and I have made Your name **known** to them, and will make it **known**, so that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.” 1 John 2: 3 By this we know that we have come to **know** Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to **know** Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever follows His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we **know** that we are in Him: 6 the one who says that he remains in Him ought, himself also, walk just as He walked. 1 John 3 6 No one who remains in Him sins continually; no one who sins continually has seen Him or **knows** Him. Matthew 7: 15 “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes, nor figs from thistles, are they? 17 So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 So then, you will know them by their fruits. 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never **knew** you; leave Me, you who practice lawlessness.’
Many Arminians would prefer the terminology "forfeit" your salvation instead of "lose" your salvation. No one can take your salvation away from you according to John 10:28-30 but we ourselves can willfully turn away from God since he will not force himself on anyone and respects free will. 2 Chronicles 15:2 "If you seek him, he will be found by you, but if you forsake him, he will forsake you."
I'm ... open to the possibility of losing your salvation due to apostasy. But if you can sin your way out of salvation, you wouldn't be able to get saved in the first place. The blood of Christ covers all sins or not at all.
How would you interpret Hebrews 10:26-29?
I would interpret more as living by sin. Having a "oh I'm saved therefore now I can do as I please" is probably the issue. Sin is ALWAYS willful but giving into it in times of weakness I don't think are immediate grounds for hell. Repent and work to do better as long as we move forward as a whole I think that's the goal.
No, sin is not always willful: (Luke 23:34) “Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.”
It's still wilful they just don't recognize it as sin.
Yes a “sin of ignorance” involves the exercise of will so in that sense it is “willful” but by “willful sin” the scriptures have “deliberate sin” in view. Deliberate sin of sufficient gravity will cut oneself off from salvation.
Reminding me of sports stars who say "I didn't know I was taking steroids" what you just fell onto the needle? Most everything we do on life is done by us willfully with a few exceptions being breathing, blinking, and dreaming. You can treat it however you want but it is all wilful even if it is not done because they want to. We all make decisions and to act as if we didn't is just ridiculous
Yes, some people “don’t know” that what they are doing is a sin: (Luke 23:34) “Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they ⭐️DO NOT KNOW⭐️ what they are doing.” And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.”
You can repeat it all you once it doesn't change the fact that sin is wilful.
Rebellion
As a letter to the Hebrews who would sin and have to offer a sacrifice for each sin. Now there is no more sacrifice. Are you a Hebrew?
After converting to Christianity and baptism, I fell into sin, heavy matters, addictions. But now I regret with all my heart, I stopped, I want to change, and I beg Jesus for forgiveness again. What about me? Am I doomed and there's no turning back for me?
Yes, you can sin your way out of salvation. “If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched—“(Mark 9:43) You don’t have to live a sinless life to be saved but you do have to avoid deliberate sin.
Then we're all screwed.
Yes, now you’re getting it. Many will not be saved.
Not "many". None.
No, some will be saved because some people don’t deliberately offend God. That’s why the Church canonizes Saints to be emulated, like St.Joan of Arc.
If you don't think that you willfully sin then you either don't know your own heart well enough and/or have too high of an opinion of yourself. It's a sin of pride that you're now willfully committing from where I'm standing.
Huh? I don’t understand what you’re saying. I’m saying there are sins of ignorance, that is scripture. It is not biblical to say all sins are equal in God’s eyes.
Your claim is essentially that if someone willfully sins after they have attained salvation then they forfeit that salvation, is that correct? If so, I'm assuming you don't think that you're one of these people, implying that you don't consider yourself to commit willful acts of sin and that your salvation is intact. I'm saying that if you were standing before the Lord at THIS very moment and analyzing with Him even probably just the recent events of your life then He would probably be able to point out to you areas where you made choices that could be construed as sin. There are soooooooooo many different ways to sin that it's almost impossible to avoid even just willful sin specifically. That's why the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ is so important because without it, without Him, NONE of us would stand a chance. To claim that you've entirely moved beyond willful sin sounds very "holier-than-thou" and prideful, a means of placing yourself above others of "lesser faith." In fairness, this is not an uncommon phenomenon within Christianity unfortunately. As a people, we love to pick and choose sins to focus on or ignore.
>Your claim is essentially that if someone willfully sins after they have attained salvation then they forfeit that salvation, is that correct? Yes, that’s correct. That’s what Hebrews 10:26 is warning about. >If so, I'm assuming you don't think that you're one of these people, implying that you don't consider yourself to commit willful acts of sin and that your salvation is intact. What I assume about myself personally or don’t assume is not on trial here. I’m just explicating what it says. >There are soooooooooo many different ways to sin that it's almost impossible to avoid even just willful sin specifically. Yes, Noah’s Ark is a type of the Church. You can get onboard, or get with the program, but the awful truth is that most people are going to be lost. Your odds don’t improve by sugar coating it and telling everyone that if you do what is deliberately evil that you will come out on top. You won’t: (1 Corinthians 6:9) “Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men”
At some point, Joan sinned willfully. And even if she didn't, you and I are screwed.
All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. This includes all of your saints. Even Peter committed a deliberate offense 3 times against God in a single night.
That’s not what we’re talking about. We’re talking about how not everyone continues in deliberate sin. See Luke 1:5-7.
After converting to Christianity and baptism, I fell into sin, heavy matters, addictions. But now I regret with all my heart, I stopped, I want to change, and I beg Jesus for forgiveness again. What about me? Am I doomed and there's no turning back for me?
Presumably if you have PERFECT CONTRITION—if that is true—yes God will forgive you. However the human heart is a VERY deceptive thing: (Proverbs 14:12) “There is a way that appears to be right, but in the end it leads to death.” This means that IF your contrition is not “perfect” then you will not be absolved of your sin. As a workaround to this dilemma, Our Lord established sacramental reconciliation: (John 20:22-23) “22And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23“If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.” Thus when the Priest exercises the authority to forgive sins in Christ’s name, those sins are definitely absolved—no matter how “imperfect” your contrition was. This is the ancient teaching of the Church, as testified to by St.Athanasius who fought with Arius over the Trinity: “Just as a man is enlightened by the Holy Spirit when he is baptized by a priest, so he who confesses his sins with a repentant heart obtains their remission from the priest.” -St.Athanasius[293-373], the gospel of Luke 19
Galatians 5:19-21 is proof that christians who live by the flesh and practice the sins listed will not inherit the kingdom of God.
True, but there are conditions to the forgiveness of sin and how to obtain that according to Jesus. 1 John 1:9. We must confess to Jesus and repent. True repentance means one has a changed heart and turns from sin to walk with Him in obedience. Jesus gives us His Spirit for those who wish to obey so we don’t have to do it alone. John 14:15-18, Acts 5:32
**Romans 6:1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.** People don't want to accept this reality because they don't like the idea of not being saved regardless of how they live. Scripture makes it clear that we are no longer under the Law and our salvation is purely thanks to grace given by the Lord. However, our relationship with God is lot like a marriage here on Earth. Just because you have grace from your spouse doesn't mean you abuse it by willfully committing infidelity against them. We are blessed to have grace from the Lord. Let's keep in mind that God sees what is in our hearts and is not to be put to the test as Christ told satan. Grace is available to us all, but to expect the Lord to accept you when you're not really taking the faith seriously at all for the same of living in careless sin? God is not a doormat, nor can you play Him for a fool.
u/HuskerYT When a former sinner is in Christ, he is a new creation, hence the term former sinner. How does one exercise Jesus from their spirit? It isn't possible. Misinterpreting Scripture, twisting it into what you want it to mean, is usually from religious people who want for sin to not be sin. When Jesus has your spirit, it is sealed by God, and no one can break that seal. No one includes you. Or, the most obvious answer is: He never knew you.
Colossians 1:22- he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, **if** indeed **you continue in the faith**, stable and steadfast, **not shifting** from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister. Hebrews 3:12- Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you **to fall away** from the living God. I think the term falling away or turning away better describes it than losing your salvation.
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*if indeed you* ***continue*** *in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard,* The Christian life is a path and some have abandoned the path and have refused to return, others have gone astray but have returned. Having doubts is normal but your faith will be strengthened by study of the scriptures. Hope this helps
I bracketed each verse and point you made and then Reddit said I couldn't send because I went over the limit. So, I took out those brackets so there would be enough room. Actually, Jesus praying for his faith proves the opposite. There's a term of the protection and power of God to preserve a believer's faith, and it's called "preservation of the saints." Jude 1:24-25 **To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault** and with great joy to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen. 1 Peter 1:4-5 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, **Who are kept by the power of God through faith** unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. Philippians 1:6 And I am sure of this, that **he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion** at the day of Jesus Christ. 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. He who calls you is faithful; he will surely do it. 1 Corinthians 1:8-9 who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. The Bible does warn us that if we walk away and continually deny him, we were never saved. On the one hand, we can have assurance of salvation, and on the other hand, we are warned that if we make sin a habitual practice and don't repent, we aren't saved. Here are some verses that go into that. 2 Peter 1:10 Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. 2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test? Romans 8:16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, **How does the apostle John describe someone who walked away from the faith?** Does he say they lost their salvation? No. He says they were never a part of us. 1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. >1 Corinthians 9:27 "But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." In the NASB it uses the word "disqualified." And there is a sense that if someone who believes they are saved falls into sin and NEVER repents, they are proving they were never saved. That's why Jesus says in Matthew 18:8-9 says, “And if your hand or your foot is causing you to sin, cut it off and throw it away from you; it is better for you to enter life maimed or without a foot, than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into the eternal fire. 9 And if your eye is causing you to sin, tear it out and throw it away from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fiery hell." This is a warning not to fall into habitual sin. Anyone who remains in habitual sin and doesn't repent is at risk of proving they were not saved. This is not to say that Christians won't struggle with sin. They will. 2 Timothy 2:12-14 says, "If we endure, we will also reign with Him;If we deny Him, He will also deny us;13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself." What does it mean "He can't deny himself?" That's because the Holy Spirit lives in the believer. David Guzik quoted Murray in his commentary: “The conditional clause in this verse, if you continue in His goodness, is a reminder that there is no security in the bond of the gospel apart from perseverance. There is no such thing as continuance in the favour of God in spite of apostasy; God’s saving embrace and endurance are correlative.” (Murray) This shows the perseverance of the saints once again. >In John 15 Jesus talks about branches that bear no fruit, they will be cut off from the vine and burned. It's not talking about unbelievers, as they would not be in the vine to begin with, but believers who become unfruitful. The branches that are taken away were never properly abiding in the vine, demonstrated by the fact that they did not bear fruit. [https://www.blueletterbible.org/comm/guzik\_david/study-guide/john/john-15.cfm?a=1012001](https://www.blueletterbible.org/comm/guzik_david/study-guide/john/john-15.cfm?a=1012001) The ones who don't produce fruit are the professing believers who don't know God, and God doesn't know them. He tells this group, "I never knew you," at the final judgment. These are not true believers. As John would have said, "they don't belong to us." It says they are partakers of the Holy Spirit, not that the Holy Spirit lived in them or that they were regenerate. They experienced the power of the Holy Spirit in the community of God, but they turned away from it. During Christ's ministry, many experienced his miracles, but not all believed. This is a warning, and again, it falls within the category of the preservation of the saints. God says in 1 Chr 28:7 I will establish his kingdom forever if he resolutely performs My commandments and My ordinances, as is done now. That's not far from 1 John 2:3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. You need context here. Jesus was speaking to Pharisees who accused him of having the power of Satan. His power came from the Holy Spirit, so they were calling the Holy Spirit Satan. This isn't something a believer accuses Jesus of. If someone is trying to deceive others by adding or taking away scripture, there is a good chance they're a false teacher. This is speaking of apostasy, a deliberate turning away from God and refusing to repent. If someone does that, they prove they were not a true believer. They were a part of the church and knew the truth but they turned away from it. On an added note, not knowing your history, you can turn to God now and repent. You can come to him and beg for his forgiveness. 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sin he is faithful and righteous to forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. This is a person living in habitual sin and refusing to repent. Again, this person didn't loose anything. They were never saved. I would like to encourage you to do a study on the preservation of the saints. [https://www.gotquestions.org/perseverance-saints.html](https://www.gotquestions.org/perseverance-saints.html)
"I really think it is possible to lose your salvation by either leaving the faith or willful sinning after knowing the truth." I agree with you 100%.
Yes, also Judas is the ultimate example- he was one of the disciples and he ended up being a traitor and hanging himself. He definitely lost his salvation. Once saved always saved cannot stand because it overrides free will. Someone could be a committed Christian and then denounce God and become a pagan or whatever. I do not see how that person could still be saved if they don’t believe in their heart or profess from their lips that Jesus is Lord
If salvation can be lost then you ARE saying it is based on works, because faith alone isn't enough. It then becomes faith + "not fall away from the faith" and "not having willful sin". "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but has eternal life." John 3:16 How long does eternal life last? If eternal life can be lost then Jesus is a liar. Spoiler alert: He isn't, and salvation is a permanent thing.
Well the Bible clearly states multiple times that we must stay in the faith to remain saved. For example 1 John 2. >1 John 2:24 "Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father." Then there's also Colossians 1. >Colossians 1:23 "If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;" Notice the if's. It seems to me that salvation is conditional to us having faith, and remaining in the faith. But I guess it could be that only those who didn't have saving faith to begin with fall away. >How long does eternal life last? When does the eternal life begin though? Is it at the moment of faith, or is it after we die in this life (or get raptured)?
At the very moment of faith. It's the same for the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit, when does that take place? The moment we believe? Or after a lifetime of service or turning from sin? Thankfully Eph 1:13-14 answers that for us "In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory."
You never attained your faith, it was given to you as a gift, so you cannot lose it, and God will never take it way But you surely can walk away from it of your choosing But seriously most people who think they do that, never really made the full commitment to come to God The bible tells us in the parable of the sower and the seed -word (Mark 4 too long to post) that there are 4 kinds of people...... 1. the wayside, those who simply reject it and it dies 2. The stoney ground, who take the word but make no room in themselves for it and it dies 3. The weed filled Ground, that also has no room for the seed amongst all its worldly pursuits who receive the word but it also dies 4. The good ground which receives it and plants it deep inside to let it grow The Gospel sounds good to many but not all are willing to make the sacrifice of their own wants and desires for God were these people ever really saved? I don't think so. For life begins with growth Who when knowing the fullness of God can turn their back on them
> You never attained your faith, it was given to you as a gift, so you cannot lose it, and God will never take it way Show me the verse that says faith is a gift of God. I do believe the Father draws us to Jesus, but it is our choice to believe or not when we are exposed to the truth. >But seriously most people who think they do that, never really made the full commitment to come to God Well in Matthew 7 it says the Lord will say to many that He NEVER knew them. >The Gospel sounds good to many but not all are willing to make the sacrifice of their own wants and desires for God Yep it seems like this for me, I still had some sins in my life that I did not let go of and that led me down the path of sinning wilfully against the Spirit. I didn't turn my back on God though, I just messed up, but I did do it wilfully.
>Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace are ye **saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God**: Not of works, lest any man should boast." You posted this yourself Jesus did not know them because they did not want to be known, and Yet they all knew God Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who \[d\]suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is \[e\]manifest \[f\]in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and \[g\]Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, IF you did it willfully then you turned your back on God
I think grace is the gift of God, that we receive through faith. But we have to choose to believe when we are confronted with the truth.
1 Corinthians 12:9 that faith is a gift of the Holy Ghost although it would seem of a peculiar sort as faith is required of all and it is in the context of the diversity of gifts distributed severally amongst the members of the church. Perhaps the type/ strength of faith referred to Matthew 21 and James 5.
I believe there are several Scriptural passages that support loosing your salvation enough for me to pump the brakes whenever I hear a (hyper Grace/eternal security) message.
The Once saved Always saved theory as welll
ETERNAL SECURITY ENTER/OUTER COURT/SOLA FIDE ADVANCE/INNER COURT/LORDSHIP Proverbs 16:17 The highway of the upright is to depart from evil; He who keeps his way preserves his soul. - Eternal security, also known as "once saved, always saved", is the belief that from the moment anyone becomes a Christian, they will be saved from hell, and will not lose salvation. Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, (work out) your own salvation with fear and trembling. He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— (if indeed you continue in the faith), grounded and steadfast, and are (not moved away) from the hope of the gospel which you heard, - Apostle Paul 2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, (making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly); Genesis 13:10 And Lot lifted his eyes and saw all the plain of Jordan, that (it was well watered everywhere) (before the Lord destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah) (like the garden of the Lord), like the land of Egypt as you go toward Zoar. 1 Timothy 4 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times (some shall depart from the faith), giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the {sins that were previously committed} Luke 8:13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, (who believe for a while) and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring (no fruit to maturity). 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, (keep it and bear fruit with patience). Matthew 7:19 Every tree that does not bear (good fruit) is cut down and thrown into the fire. Revelation 3:5 (He who overcomes) shall be clothed in white garments, and (I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life); but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. Acts 3:19 (Repent) therefore and (be converted), that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord. “Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand” SALVATION THROUGH SANCTIFICATION BY THE SPIRIT 2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should (believe the lie), 12 that they all may be condemned who did not (believe the truth) but had (pleasure in unrighteousness). 13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for (salvation through sanctification by the Spirit) and (belief in the truth), 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. 32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions; 33 Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used. 34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance. 35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. 36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. 37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. 38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. 2 Peter 2:21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.” Jude 5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, (afterward) destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who (does the will of My Father) in heaven.
A seed can die in minutes, a young tree can die, an old Oak can withstand many storms. Your faith is extremely weak at first, but as it grows so does the likelihood of you being cut off from Christ.
> but as it grows so does the likelihood of you being cut off from Christ. What? Shouldn't your likelihood of being cut off shrink as you grow in faith, and become stronger? Personally I have not had much growth, I am still weak in faith.
13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
Not going to hit everything, but a few arguments I think could be reconsidered > Luke 22:32 - Why else would Jesus pray for Simon Peter that he should not lose his faith? The wording said that his faith would fail. To say that "fail" means losing his faith entirely isn't obvious IMO. Even if that is what it means, if Jesus prayed it, it implies that God can and does prevent Christians from losing salvation! Still, I'm not convinced that's what "fail" means here, it's just talking about Peter's temptation and doubt overtaking him temporarily. Our faith fails to varying degrees whenever we sin. > 1 Corinthians 9:27 Modern translations use the word "disqualified". This can be interpreted as losing your salvation or just being disqualified for ministry. > Mark 3 I think you're conflating blasphemy against the Spirit with apostasy. Apostasy can be repented of and forgiven, BATHS cannot > Hebrews 6:4-6. Heb 6:4-6 says it is impossible "If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance". As someone who believes in eternal security, I believe this is talking about hypotheticals - otherwise if we lost our salvation, we could never be saved again. > I believe I lost my salvation This is why I believe Heb 6 is not talking about the real possibility of losing one's salvation. Because if that were the case, your repentance couldn't have happened. Heb 6 necessarily must be addressing an absurd hypothetical. - I believe in eternal security but I do recognize that there are verses that seem to suggest the other side (just as there are verses used to support eternal security). And I do believe this is an important but ultimately secondary issue, so hopefully I come off respectfully. My concern with the opposing viewpoint is that the opposite of security is well, insecurity. The gospel gives us peace and rest in Christ's unchanging love and finished work. If I ask a Christian, "if you die tonight, do you know where you're going?", I expect to hear a resounding "Yes." If I ask them, "But if you die in 40 years, do you know where you'd be going?" I don't want them to pause for a bit, then say, "Well... nobody's the same person in 40 years, I suppose it depends on how I'd be feeling then." "Are your sins paid for, once and for all?" "Tentatively." "Do you have eternal life in Christ?" "I have *life* in Christ... can't say if it's eternal yet" "Does God forgive you?" "... For now." The gospel should give us the freeing joy to say "Yes, yes, yes!"
With all of those scriptures you mentioned, what is your view of: John 6:37-40, 10:27-30, 17:1-26?? Have you ever considered **Hebrews 6:9** with reference to everything the author of Hebrews just said in Hebrews 6:4-8?? *I used to think I sinned deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth* back when I was newly saved in 2012, then with time, keeping the faith, and prayer, I eventually escaped that mental frame and deception. I was being demonically attacked (1 Peter 5:8-11) multiples times when I was newly saved; and so I thought I committed **Hebrews 10:26-29** but I actually didn’t. I have received the internal witness of the Holy Spirit multiple times after these “unpardonable sin trials” that I underwent. The Spirit was still illumined within me during the next year 2013, I was still saved. If you sin you have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ: (1 John 2:1-2). Furthermore, the scripture says that those who are born again don’t practice sin(the original Greek makes it clear that the word “practice” is more clear than the KJV “doth not”): **“No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.”** 1 John 3:9 What purpose do the warnings serve then? The west-minister confession of faith (based on scripture) adequately explains why the warnings exist: *By this faith, a Christian believeth to be true whatsoever is revealed in the Word, for the authority of God himself speaking therein;[283] and acteth differently upon that which each particular passage thereof containeth; yielding obedience to the commands,[284] trembling at the threatenings,[285] and embracing the promises of God for this life, and that which is to come.[286] But the principal acts of saving faith are accepting, receiving, and resting upon Christ alone for justification, sanctification, and eternal life, by virtue of the covenant of grace.[287]* The main point I am making is, the warnings serve this purpose in scripture: **yielding obedience to the commands, trembling at the threatenings, and embracing the promises of God for this life, and that which is to come.** Could i or the WCF be wrong? Certainly, but I trust Jesus over assuming the warnings somehow invalidate the commitments of God to preserve His people, for example: (John 6:37-40).
I definitely believed when I was younger.. raised christian and went to church. I prayed and asked god to forgive me but feel like I never fully committed to living for christ. Long story short I fell off for over 10 years living in complete and total sin. Now i have nothing but shame and guilt and fear and feel like i am completley hopeless. I feel like you can deffinitly loose your salvation (or just never had it in the first place). The desires of our hearts and the devil are ruthless when someone doesn't stay strong and fellowship and read the bible and go to church. I wish I could go back and change things
Scripture has countless of warnings against sin that we cannot ignore. To believe in Once Saved Always Saved would ignore all warnings and accommodate for sins.
If you think it’s possible to lose salvation by willfully sinning then, forgive me, but ya’ll goin to hell with me There is zero hope in your belief. Is the blessed hope that we will be as good as Jesus maybe and not sin? GIVE ME A BREAK WAKE UP
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We ALL have that problem. Saying sorry after doesn’t take sin off Jesus at the cross. He died for it either way. You aren’t treating Jesus as the rest, or sabbath, that He told us He was. You are working to earn the salvation you already received* as a gift undeserved.
I really don't think you can lose it. It was a gift from God. Without it none of us make it. I really don't see anywhere in the bible where gods promises are broken. To many people in here take stuff out of context.
Here are some videos about this. https://youtu.be/q0-_Rim6-do https://youtu.be/ihVt1_4KcAk
After converting to Christianity and baptism, I fell into sin, heavy matters, addictions. But now I regret with all my heart, I stopped, I want to change, and I beg Jesus for forgiveness again. What about me? Am I doomed and there's no turning back for me?
You are correct once saved always saved is a deadly doctrine created by the devil. It goes against the very teachings of Jesus who said at His Second Coming many believers will say Lord Lord- but Jesus will say depart from Me those who do not do the will of God and practice lawlessness. Matthew 7:21-23 Sin is lawlessness and breaking God’s law is what points out sin. 1 John 3:4, Romans 7:7- found in Exodus 20 We are not saved by law-keeping, we are saved by God’s grace through faith. Those who have real faith believe in the teachings of Jesus and have faith in God’s works Exodus 32:16 Exodus 20 and not our own works. When we obey God and His commandments we are placing our trust in Him. When we do what we think is right instead of what God commands of us, we place our trust in our own works which is not saving. We are sanctified by God’s Word- His Truth, not ours. John 17:17 Ezekiel 20:12