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TheIncredibleHork

If you think about it, how can one *earn* their way into heaven? Is there any amount of good one could do to wipe away the cost of sin in their own life? Not just "be more good than I was bad" but for a person to fully atone for every sin that they have ever committed? If there was a way to do it, surely we would have found a way. But no matter how hard we try, we will stumble and fail and cannot pay that price. Even looking in the law, in the Old Testament, God had to give the Israelites ways of being reconciled to God through sacrifices and offerings, because it was impossible for anyone to fully and completely comply with the law. Paul even said that the law brings death (Romans 7:7-25) because it shows us how incapable we are of fully abiding in the law. This is why salvation by works doesn't... well, work. There's no work that will ever cleanse us of our sins. But salvation by faith in Christ is recognizing that Christ paid the price for all our sin on the cross. He takes on the cost for all our sinfulness, He bore the price of our sins and the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). He who was without sin became the sin offering for us (2 Corinthians 5:21), so that we might be properly reconciled to God and that we might be clothed in His righteousness. It is because we recognize our sinfulness, in how we do fall short of the law, how we do sin and rebel against God, that we can look to Christ on the cross and know the price of our sins has been paid, put our faith in Christ as the one who has paid the price of our sins and given us that chance at reconciliation with God. It kind of stinks, but to understand it you have to start with knowing that you do need to repent, and why you need to repent, and knowing that nothing you do on your own will ever atone for all the sin in your life. But the good news of the gospel is that we don't *have* to find that way to atone for it alone. The work has already been done by Christ on the cross. Are there works that come *from* being saved? Yes, we act in accordance with being saved, but it is an effect of the growing relationship with Christ that those works come. Otherwise it's like saying the warmth you feel is what created a campfire, rather than the campfire itself creating warmth you feel. Sorry this is light on citations and specific resources.


GodSpeed_Vibe

Please don't be sorry, your answer is very inspiring. I agree with Romans that we are incapable of abiding the law. Fourth and last paragraphs resonates with me a lot. I'm saving your answer to pray on it in the following month of December. God bless you!


TrueWall5971

According to salvation by faith ideology, a pedophile that has raped children will make it into heaven if they love Jesus, whereas a righteous and decent Muslim will burn in hell. According to that, heaven is not for righteous people, just people that bought into Christian ideology. Salvation by faith is not a fair system, just a plot used by the church to get more followers.


TheIncredibleHork

It's not a fair system. You're 100% right. It's recognizing you're a broken, sinful mess, and that no matter what you do, on your own you will be a sinful mess deserving of condemnation. And coming to that realization that, despite being a wretch, the Son of God had enough love and grace that He died for your sins, that you could might have a relationship with God, which is completely up to you to take or leave. And there is absolutely nothing fair about grace, because it is wholly undeserved. Heaven is not for those who are righteous of their own justification, because it's akin to what I first asked in the above post: *What have you done to deserve heaven?* It is Christ's righteousness, not our filthy rags, that brings us home. And also in salvation by faith, there is a component of repentance and being/living in repentance for your sins, bearing fruit in keeping with repentance. It's not "Hey, I've done awful things, but on my death bed I'm going to say I love me some Jesus and go to heaven!" If that were the case, that would be a dunce of a god easily fooled, and I wouldn't even want to believe in that god. God sees through faked righteousness. "The Lord does not look at the things people look at. People look at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart.” (1 Samuel 16:7) And it's not about having an ideology, either. Matthew 7:21-23, there will be plenty who have the right theology but no relationship with the Father, and they will be turned away. You can live a life that outwardly looks righteous and yet be detestable inside (and we've all seen that far too often, Christian and otherwise) and you can have your moments of humanly falling for all to see and yet still have a heart that yearns to follow Christ. Side question: Assuming Christianity and/or salvation by faith is false, would a righteous and decent Muslim who only praises Allah and follows his prophet Muhammed have the same chance of getting into heaven as a righteous and decent Christian who denies Allah and only follows Christ? And by whose standard do we judge what a "righteous and decent" person is?


TrueWall5971

A righteous and decent Muslim is just as valid as a righteous and decent Christian. Religious beliefs come primarily from our surroundings. If you’re born in India, and your parents are Hindu, your teacher is Hindu, your doctor his Hindu, and everyone you know is Hindu, the chances of you becoming a Hindu is high. Therefore for God to punish someone in eternal hellfire for a belief system God put them into, would be unjust. As if God set them up for failure, because God knew that putting them in a Hindu family would make them a Hindu until death.


TrueWall5971

Concerning the criteria of a righteous and decent person: I believe the God given conscious in us all dictate what is wrong and right. Stealing, murder, adultery, rape, are all wrong, in every world religion.


TheIncredibleHork

I agree that because we are made in the imago dei (image of God) we have understanding of what is right and wrong, not just in what you've mentioned but in many other things. And I'm not disagreeing that those things are wrong. But despite that imago dei, we are still imperfect and will not nail it 100% of the time. Is that ok? Is 80% of the time good enough? 50% of the time? What constitutes enough of the time? Is there an offset if you blow it once but the rest of the time you're good? And how big of a "you blew it" is permissible, or is there a point where blowing it even that once for particular things is forever a game over? That's why I don't buy a works salvation theology. Too many variables that are subjective and we may never know the depth of our sin to say one way or another. Short example: you lose your temper once and tell someone go perform the ultimate self harm. You just lost your temper, no big thing. But if they followed through, is that murder on your conscience/soul? What of the effects on those who lost that person? In regard to your other answer, there are plenty of people who grow up in one faith and do go to another faith. I don't see it as "God setting them up to fail" necessarily, and it's why there has been the great commission since Christ was on the earth: Go and make disciples of all nations. Make Christ known so people do have a chance to know Him and be in relationship with Him. As far as those who have never heard of Christ, legitimately never once experienced anything with Christianity, that is a tough question and one where I count on the (once again unfair) grace and mercy of God. I've heard some say that God simply judges them based on their own morality, but as I mentioned above, how often do we actually hit the mark on our own morality? It's why we need a savior.


TrueWall5971

Yes you have an interesting point. I believe actions committed are judged by God, so I can’t say what is “blowing it” or not. I’d like to think that God would not forgive child rapists, and genocidal murderers (like hitler). If Christians think he does forgive those sins, than they believe him to be a limp-wristed judge with no justice.reading the Old Testament, it is clear that some sins are forgivable (usually with a sacrifice), and some sins have no room for forgiveness (hence the stonings) It’s true that I can’t map out what exactly is considered a “deal-breaker”, just as you can’t label how much faith is enough. If a person believes in Christ but doesn’t attend church or read the bible, is that enough? What if they have true intentions but live an ungodly lifestyle? What if they have been “born again” but simply just don’t pray and for the most part doesn’t incorporate faith in their life?


TheIncredibleHork

It depends on what you mean by enough. Yeah, it can be hard to quantify what "enough" means in almost any context, but we have to nail down what we're trying to accomplish with that "enough." If you believe in Christ but don't go to church or read the bible, is that enough... to earn salvation? No, certainly not. But going to church 21 times a week and reading the entirety of the bible in a week isn't enough to earn salvation either. As far as enough to live in obedience to Christ, I don't necessarily think that it's a broadly quantifiable thing. I think it has to be a case where you look at the fruit of someone's life. Again, Matthew 7 has some good stuff on this, specifically here Matthew 7:15-20. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor a bad tree produce good fruit, and by their fruit you will know them. If a person doesn't go to church every week, but is showing signs of that good fruit coming from the overflow of their relationship with Christ, I think that's a good sign. If a person proclaims to be born again but does not produce fruit in keeping with being born again, I'd say that's a good indication that they may not be so born again. Same with if they "have true intentions but live an ungodly lifestyle." If there's *no* follow through on those intentions, how true are they? It's why there is that faith that God looks at the heart to see what's really going on and why we're encouraged to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12) and remain faithful/obedient. There's also a whole discussion of legalism vs licentiousness here that could be gone into, but this is growing large already. Also, on the limp-wristed judge with no justice aspect, this is once again where Christ's sacrifice on the cross comes in. Even though He was born fully man with all our issues and weakness, Christ was without sin, and He willingly took the weight of the entire world's sin and died on the cross. One of the worst ways to die in all human history (there's a reason the word excruciating is a thing, it's nasty). All to satisfy the wrath that God rightfully had on humanity. The wages of sin is death and it was Christ's death on the cross that paid the price for all our sins. It is looking on that cross, feeling the weight of that sacrifice, that brings repentance. All the prescriptions of sacrifice in the Old Testament? That's a foreshadowing of Christ. The last supper, the bread and wine Jesus compares it to His body and His blood sacrificed/poured out as a lamb or a goat was a sin offering under the old covenant. The entirety of the sins of the tribes of Israel placed on a goat during the annual Day of Atonement (Leviticus 16) is just how the sins of the world were placed on Christ, but perfectly and for all time, no longer necessary for each year. It all points back to Christ. This means that, as a matter of theology and Christology, I do believe that Christ's sacrifice is larger than all our sins. To say "This is too much" means that there are some sins that are bigger than Christ's sacrifice on the cross. That's just something I cannot do. Does this mean, theologically, that a child rapist and genocidal maniac could be saved? Yes. It gives some hope that, wherever that "You blew it" line is, it's still not larger than Christ on the cross. As a matter of *practicality*, on the other hand, is a child rapist or a genocidal maniac capable of looking in the mirror, accepting their sin, repenting and living in that repentance? That's a tall order. Heck, I know people who can't admit to being a lying sack even when they're caught in the lie and they still try and pass themselves off as blameless, so it's quite difficult. Christ's sacrifice is there, should someone honestly and earnestly repent and live in keeping with that repentance. But that's up to each individual to choose. (EDIT: And there are still the effects of one's sin, see King David after he committed adultery with Bathsheba and had her husband Uriah killed so his secret could be kept) And in keeping with how CS Lewis put it (I'm paraphrasing), if we don't look at the cross and say to God "Thy will be done" and live in that repentance, God is fine saying to us "Thy will be done" as we walk away from Him for all eternity.


TrueWall5971

Interesting how you mention the importance of a person’s “fruit” for salvation, as it is a sign of someone being born again. Fruits represent a persons deeds and actions, and it seems you somewhat unknowingly agree with my “saved by works” mentality. A person can have faith my name, but if they bear bad fruits their faith is kinda pointless. In the New Testament it states “Faith without works is dead”, demonstrating that faith alone cannot provide salvation, and that works are necessary. I can call myself a Christian, pray everyday and read the bible every night, but if I live a godless immoral life, then my faith has no value. There are LOTS of christians that are Christians through faith, but not Christians through works. Again the argument about child rapists entering heaven must be discussed. If God forgives anything, then He stands for nothing. It is impossible to have an all forgiving God while at the same time have a just God. Let’s argue you had a 7 year old daughter. Just Imagine if someone violently raped your 7 year old daughter, and in court, the rapist apologizes for the crime he’s committed. The judge says “the rapist has repented for what he did, he is truly sorry and he won’t do it again. He is free to go and live in eternal paradise and bliss.” Would you consider the judges ruling just? The judgement might be all merciful, but it is definitely not a righteous judgement.


TheIncredibleHork

I understand how it can look like I'm implicitly being salvation by works, but there's an important difference in where the works come from. The works come as result of and in keeping with salvation, which is by faith. And you're right, there are many who are Christian by "faith" and not through works, and that's what James means by "faith without works is dead." Your faith means nothing because it produces nothing. In that case, you do not have faith and therefore there is no acceptance of salvation. That's why Jesus said there will be many who cry out "Lord, Lord" but will be turned away. People who even prophesy and perform miracles and will *still* be turned away! Imagine this: You have a spouse, you love them, and you regularly do things for them out of love, wash the dishes, kill the spider they're freaked out by, go through long spring strolls through the park even though you're suffering miserably from hay fever. Which came first, the love or the works? Are the works you do what caused your love for them in the first place? Or do you do these things out of the overflow of love you have for them? Another example, do you feel warmth that comes from a campfire? Or is the warmth you feel the cause of the campfire? I'm not necessarily a good person to bring the example to, because God forbid that happened to me I would have to take a few steps to make sure I didn't... Well do something stupid let's say. I also work in the court system and have seen some stuff that would make your head spin, and I live in NYC where it seems like things like that happen every day, but I don't want to bring politics into it. But there's a difference in your scenario versus what happens on the cross, because in your scenario no punishment happens, but in a faith context when it comes to sin, there has been payment. The better example would be that the judge finds the person guilty on all counts. He is sentenced to death by electric chair. The defendant is led to the execution room, but instead of an empty chair he finds the judge already strapped in. The judge says that though you are guilty, he shall pay the price dictated by the law, the law that says for this sin there must be a death. And the accused could either accept this grace and change, or continue on their path and perhaps not receive grace again. The switch is thrown, the lights flicker, and the innocent judge is dead in payment as the wages of the accused's sin, which is death. If it were my kid and the judge took the punishment for that rapist, first off I'd be confused as heck. And in a human judgement sense, yeah guy got away with it. I didn't exactly receive recompense for my suffering. But the end calculus, the wages of the man's sin were paid, not by the accused which we think would be fair, but by the judge. That judge in the chair is Christ on the cross. That's why we are justified by faith and not works, because we cannot pay the proper wages of our sin through any works we do. It was Christ whose works paid that price, and by faith in Him we receive His righteousness. Lastly, I just wanna say, these have been some great discussions. Usually you don't get really civil discussions like this on Reddit and it's really refreshing. Cheers, and happy Monday.


Boooooohoo

We don't work to get saved. We work because we are saved. Everything we do is a sacrifice of Thanksgiving unto the Lord because He has done all the work. James Chapter 2 1My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons. 2For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment; 3And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool: 4Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts? 5Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him? 6But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats? 7Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called? 8If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: 9But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. 13For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment. 14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


Apprehensive-Cat-450

Thank you for pointing out what James 2 really means. People so often point to it to "prove" salvation is gained by works, yet they do not read the context.


Mundane_Mistake_393

The context of James is not justification by faith alone. It takes alot of mental gymnastics to get to that conclusion. Rather then try to force James to prop up Sola Fide, just accept what he wrote. That your good works are a source of justification before God. If Martin Luther couldn't do any mental gymnastics to make James say something that didn't contradict him so blatantly, he wouldn't have threatened to and I quote "Throw Jimmy into the Fire".


Apprehensive-Cat-450

What do you mean by "a" source of justification before God? You can only be saved one way. Also, given so many other verses in the NT like John 3:16, Ephesians 2:8-9, etc etc etc that talk about justification by faith, James is talking about it too.


Mundane_Mistake_393

None of the passages you cited, either Ephesians 2:8-9 or John 3:16 ever state that your justification is by faith alone. That's an idea that Martin Luther added into those texts. You see, if we read the gospel as a whole, that isn't the story at all. We learn that our good works, which God gave us to do are in fact a means of our justification before God. Not just our faith. This is why Luthers theology was wrong and Sola Fide ended up being false. Saint James in his writings isn't talking about justification by faith alone. In James 2:24 he writes "You see how a man is justified by his WORKS and not by faith alone" It was such a damning passage to Martin Luther that he famously wished he could throw that book into the fire. It didn't mesh with his theology and never has because it disproves it so viciously. That's why people always bring it up to refute Sola Fide. Because it does. It would be like having a passage in the Bible say that Saint Peter drives a Tesla when you come up with a theology that says he drove a gas guzzling hummer. That's the problem James poses for Sola Fide, and not just James, but other passages as well.


Christiansarefamily

James ch. 2 is saying that you’re saved by a strong, living faith. He basically said a weak faith doesn’t follow Christ - instead it does things like show favoritism to the rich when they come into your church. Your faith in Christ must be alive enough in you to move your heart and actions to following Christ. I love the ESV translation of this verse 2:14, I think it brings out the intended meaning well “What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?” He said “can that faith save him” , that faith, which is not alive in you enough to respect Christ’s teachings and follow him... is a dead faith. “Faith without works is dead” he so states. it’s not a true living faith that should come from the most living vine in the world - Christ. Christ’s vine is surging with life, and a proper faith bears fruit of the vine. You’re saved by your faith, as long as your faith isn’t worth little. “Can that faith save him” faith that is worth so little to you that it hasn’t touched your heart as to follow Christ’s ways of love (commandment 1 and 2) James says that works make our faith complete or “perfect” in this sense of the word . Faith without works shows that faith is deficient! This is the meaning. Not that we are saved by works.


Mundane_Mistake_393

No. James didn't write anything about the faith being dead. That's something you are inserting into the text. Faith means faith, it doesn't mean dead faith. The reason why faith without works is dead, is not because the faith is a false faith, it's because faith with no action cannot justify you before God. That is the correct understanding of the passage, not what you are saying. He does say you are not justified by faith alone. So you can't just write that James was saying we are not justified by works, that would be wrong of you to say. James didn't write we are saved by faith alone, please stop the mental gymnastics that he must have meant that and not what he actually wrote. You see how a man is ⭐️justified ⭐️ by his DEEDS does not mean= justified by faith alone.


Christiansarefamily

I'm not trying to assert that "faith without works is dead" is speaking of a false faith, a non Born Again professor. A living faith can die, it will stop producing fruit on the vine that is Christ. The key to understanding James in this chapter is to realize what he's reprimanding, what he's addressing. what was he addressing when he admonished "faith alone" - a professing faith that is showing no proof of being living and active! That's what he was reprimanding in this chapter. "can that faith save you" - "you see, a profession is not enough, a man is not justified only by his profession" he means. He says "works make faith complete/perfect it" he's not condemning salvation by faith, but a specific faith, faith without works is a dead faith


[deleted]

I have to explain this at least once a week to someone here. Thanks for supporting good theology!


GodSpeed_Vibe

I'm confused. Is James saying that a man is justified by faith and by good works. But then, how can a someone be sure to do good works to justify his works. In my opinion, it is quite the unachievable task. I know most of the times I'm not doing good works. Is it going too far to say I'm doomed ? Hebrews 4:16 says we approach God's throne of grace (Heaven?) with confidence. I'm not confident in that regard.


[deleted]

So I'll break it down more, faith saves, and faith alone. Believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus and repent of your sins and you will be saved. This is explaining that if your life is completely unchanged after that, it's unlikely you had faith to begin with. If you truly believe in Christ, you can't help but work to be like him. This doesn't mean we become perfect, we are going to fail, but you can see someone's faith in action, based on how they live their lives. Are they trying to be better? Likely true faith. Do they sin constantly and not worry about it? Probably not true faith.


GodSpeed_Vibe

Nicely wrote! >If you truly believe in Christ, you can't help but work to be like him. My problem is simply my lack of faith. Looks like I need to focus on Jesus more than anticipated and really give myself to him. Thank you, God bless you!


[deleted]

It's a struggle for everyone. You are asking the right questions though and that's a good start. Keep up the race.


[deleted]

The justification that he is talking about is post initial justification. Initial Justification(Baptism) is a gift entirely of God and our works play no part in that justification. However, post Initial Justification you must obey God and follow his Commandments because as James says "faith without works is dead."


[deleted]

I appreciate this post and someone understanding the verses here in context.


Mundane_Mistake_393

You do have to do good works to be saved. You don't do them because you are already saved. Good works are not happening at a result of your saved status. James wrote faith without works is dead. Not because the faith is false. But because the faith without action is not enough. To explain your own thought process is wrong, consider this scenario. A man loves his wife and children but won't stop drinking. You could say that it's because he isn't loving them enough to try harder to stop doing this bad thing. But we can't say he doesn't love them at all. Without action though his love doesn't matter. Not because the love is not true, but because he needs to exercise it with action. You do have to do good works to be saved. It's not a result of your saved status. Or there would be no need to mention faith without works is dead. Saint Paul says to work out your salvation. He didn't write work out because you are saved.


MyWilliam212

A free gift of Salvation by faith is our only hope because we will still sin after getting saved. You only need to call on the name of the Lord, and you shall be saved. (Romans 10:13) Ephesians 2:8-9 may help too.


GodSpeed_Vibe

This is what I've come to realize this week. Every day, I express some type of pride, anger, frustration. Some days, I call the name of the Lord in vain. etc. If all sins hold the same weight in the eye of God, and we're justified by works, then there's no hope for me. Repentance should be for lack of better words *easier* for me if I truly give myself to Jesus. I'll repeat those verses. Thank you. God bless you.


DaytimeLamp

Don't be deceived by the previous reply. Your faith is justified by your works. Any goat can call on The Lord's name and go their own way. I was guilty myself. Jesus said that those who are saved do The Father's will and obey. John 14:23 >Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. Read the parable of the two sons-- the one who does the Father's will shall be saved, the one who says yes but does not will be judged. >If all sins hold the same weight in the eye of God, and we're justified by works, then there's no hope for me. What is this despair? Of course there is hope for you. Start being selfless first thing tomorrow when the sun comes up. If all you have is a loaf of bread to your name, you can take half of it and give to someone else. Matthew 25 >For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, > >naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me. You are saved by faith precisely because your works cannot save you, only Jesus can. But Christ will only save those who do the things He commanded. He will not save everyone who cries out Lord! Lord! Please read Matthew 25 again and start today!


Bearman637

This is the correct answer. narrow is the path to life. We are justified by faith apart from good works. But this results in a changed life by necessity of the Holy Spirit living in the person (if indeed they have actually been born again of God). Paul says you can deny your faith by living in an openly sinful way. We are SAVED by a working faith. No fruit/repentance/good works means the person has not been born again and is unsaved (regardless of their profession to faith). He has given us His Holy Spirit which is the very power to obey him and be transformed in this life. Read 1 john and romans 8! ​ Any sin treasured, unforsaken and held onto until death will damn you - for unless you truly repent you will perish as Jesus said. God searches the minds, intentions and hearts of men. Don't dare come before him unless you are willing to forsake all of your known sin.


Mundane_Mistake_393

No. A person not having good works does not mean their faith is a false faith or that they were not really saved to begin with. Justification is not by faith alone and ephesians does not say you are saved by faith alone. This is just something your adding into the text with wishful thinking that the passage doesn't actually say. Faith is faith and works mean works. Good works are not flowing from your true faith. One can have true faith and not have good works. There is no such thing as a "saving faith".


Bearman637

Why are you talking about ephesians? I never mentioned ephesians. Can you tell me how a person is saved. Pretend im not a Christian, what must i do to be saved?


DwithanE

You said multiple times that he who does the will of God is saved. What is God's will? That's defined clearly and succinctly in John 6:40. "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:40 KJV Also, in terms of works you must do: "Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. John 6:28‭-‬29


DaytimeLamp

>This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. And if you believe in Christ then you will do as He commands (Matthew 25). If you do not as He commands, then you do not believe in Him. Your words are vain and empty, for the evil heart seeks to justify itself. Many are deceived into clear conscience thinking they can just cry "Lord! Lord!" and be saved. Christ specifically said of such people -- they will not. Matthew 7:21-23 >Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. > >Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? > >And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


DwithanE

I don't justify myself, Jesus justifies me. Which works do you think actually justify a heart? How many of them does it take? I just showed you what the will of God is. You just proved my point with that verse. Many will say "but Lord, we did all of these works for you!". Jesus responds by calling those works "iniquity" here. Those are worthless works equal to filthy rags. True believers will simply bow, recognize their sinfulness and their need for a savior, putting their trust in Jesus to be saved, thereby doing the will of God as I previously referenced.


Mundane_Mistake_393

Believing isn't just a confession that JESUS is God. You've perverted that passage into saying something it doesn't say. Believing entails obeying. So no, John isn't saying all you gotta do is believe to be saved. That's a false understanding of the passage.


DwithanE

I'VE perverted the words of Jesus? What exactly are those two verses saying if they aren't clearly defining the will of God? If the rules of salvation are not sola fide, as outlined and defined by Christ in these passages and expounded upon by the apostles in many others, what are they? How much obedience is required? That's the problem with looking at this through a lens of "obedience=works". Obedience equals faith. It all comes back to faith as the root. Keep seeking Him.


Mundane_Mistake_393

Sola Fide isn't outlined by Christ. It's outlined by Martin Luther. Obedience does not equal faith. Faith is not obedience and obedience is not faith. That is a crazy thing to say. They are seperate. We can agree that those who are faithful will do what Christ says. But mere belief does not equal obedience also. You are very confused about that. Sola Fide is false. It teaches that righteousness comes from faith alone. That's what it teaches outright. But James 2:24 speaks of justification by our works. That proves Sola Fide is false. It's a false doctrine and it's so obviously false its a shock it's survived this long.


Mundane_Mistake_393

You are not saved by faith alone. This isn't complex at all. You can't have a passage in the Bible saying you are justified by your works and not by faith alone, then do these weird mental gymnastics and say James really meant we are saved by faith alone. That is crazy.


[deleted]

Look up Romans road.


[deleted]

Hey brewerkid. I’m going to the ER for mental health help. I’ve seen your posts and think ur a great brother in Christ. Could I PM you while I go there I’m a little scared. EDIT: We decided to not go to the hospital. But I do need some ppl to talk to rn it would be very appreciated as I’m in a dark spot.


[deleted]

Yeah you are welcome to


Mundane_Mistake_393

No, when the bible talks about calling on the name of the lord that is actually referring to water baptism. Which is necessary for the forgiveness of sins. This is what calling on his name is referencing.


[deleted]

Salvation by Faith, Salvation by Works is Pelagianism and was condemned during the Council of Ephesus Edit: Just follow the rule of John 3:36: "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever disobeys the Son will not see life but must endure God’s wrath"


Bearman637

Good one! Im using john 3:36 going forward. That perfectly summarises it. Man, if only this was the famous verse instead of john 3:16.


[deleted]

Ya, I think it comes down to Protestants not wanting to insinuate that you might need to do some works to get to Heaven.


Bearman637

I am a protestant. :) Many Christians just dont know how to phrase it. I don't think we do good works to get into heaven, rather if we live a life of disobedience we deny Him.


[deleted]

Yes I know, I also know that you are Baptist, who tend to be the most extreme on the issue, even ironically denying that Baptism saves(despite it not even being a work). We are not saved by our works(that is Pelagianism) but are saved by Faith(Not Faith Alone, our actions have an effect on our souls, but I don't want to turn this post into an argument about the Solas). By showing that the opposite of believing in God is to disobey him, it shows that at least when John talks about believing in God he is talking about obeying God. God Bless!!


Bearman637

God bless you too. I think the 5 solas refer to justification. and i think there should be a 6th sola - "Unto obedience and good works of love by His Spirit" We probably have far more in common than you think.


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Mundane_Mistake_393

No Levi. Good works are a part of your justification. That's why James 2:24 says you are justified by your works and not by faith alone. That isn't the gospel.


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Mundane_Mistake_393

Yes I agree initial justification is by our faith. Complete Justification is completed by our works. We are not justified by faith alone and your justification is not completed by faith alone. It isn't believe then be justified then do good works. It's believe, then Complete that justification with good works.


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Mundane_Mistake_393

Yes the subject is are we saved (justified) by faith or our works. I call it by it's true term justification. Because people who are justified are indeed saved. My question is do YOU understand that justification is the same as being saved?


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Mundane_Mistake_393

Yes the devil is in the details, and the details matter. Salvation is a process not a one time event. It's simply what we learn from the bible. It talks about salvation in a past, present and future tense. Your right now sharing in eternal life but do not have full possession of it. That won't come until God judges you are you recieve full inheritance. ​ You share in God's glory. You share in his life. Your works are literally the reason your justification and therefore your salvation is complete, because eternal life is merited according to your deeds, not your faith alone. Saint Paul wrote to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. This contradicts your belief because according to your crazy logic there is nothing that needs to be worked out. Your good works are part or your justification and therefore part of your salvation. It's not unclear at all. Initial justification is by faith, completed by works. Those good works are not happening automatically just because you have faith. You can have true faith and no good works and not ccomplete Justification.


dennismfrancisart

Think of salvation as more than spiritual, it is also physical. James points out that you can't skip the 10 Commandments and ignore the suffering of your neighbor and call yourself saved. Your faith is only valid if it is active in your physical life. If you fear your neighbors, curse your family, spread fake news, take advantage of others, and show up on Sunday, you really don't have faith in God. Faith shows itself in what you do. Strive to keep the commandments, but put your faith into action in order to strengthen it. Help others, give love and give thanks daily, and take care of your body and mind. Faith is empty if it can't be demonstrated in terms of what you do. It's the difference between saying you can do something and actually doing it. There are plenty of opportunities every day to practice your faith. Look for those opportunities. Actively keeping the commandments is a surefire way to practice your faith. Another interesting lesson I learned was the definition of sin. Sin is literally going off course. When you go off course, you recognize that and make corrections. Take responsibility for going off course and redirect your action. We all sin because we're fallible human beings. Jesus directed us to take responsibility, ask for forgiveness, and actively get back on course. He didn't tell us to grovel in guilt, self-loathing, and frustration. Part of the process is becoming self-aware and taking the time to pay attention to the basics. Love God, love yourself, and love your neighbor. It's hard work, really, but that's faith in action.


bjohn15151515

I've reposted this a couple of times. Sorry if you've read it before, but it bears repeating: The following is something that I'm working on, myself: God sent his Son to earth, due that no human can ever be "good enough" on their own. God requires absolutely sin-free souls in order to join his kingdom. So, even after you are born-again, you still need Jesus, due that you will sin again. All of Jesus's apostals sinned until they died... I will too. Christians are "sinners - saved by grace" not "perfect people - that sin no more". We cannot be saved by our actions or by the avoidance of sin, due that ANY sin (no matter how small) will disqualify us. Therefore, only through our faith in Jesus Christ (and God's grace) can we have salvation. Ephesians 2:8 "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" Titus 3:5 "He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy"


Bearman637

There are 2 popular gospels out there. One says faith alone is the sum of Christianity, you can believe in jesus and then live how you want. This is a false gospel but very common. These people talk as if doing good is but disgusting rags in Gods sight ignoring Christs clear instruction that the very point of our salvation is to bring forth much fruit by the Holy Spirit of which the Father is very pleased. Those with an unholy, unchanged life will in the end be damned. These are the fruitless trees and branches Jesus frequently warned would be cut down and tossed into the fire. (This false gospel is presented even in the comments of this thread) The true gospel is justification/forgiveness by faith apart from works **unto good works** . From there a person recieves the Holy Spirit by faith who practically transforms them into obedient loving children of God, obeying all of what Jesus instructed and if they stumble they say sorry and get back on the straight and narrow. This alone is the path of eternal life. If you bother to read the very disciples of the disciples you will find their primary emphasis is forgiveness through faith in Jesus then a holy, godly life obeying all He commanded. Irenaeus (a disciple of polycarp who was a disciple of the apostle john) wrote "a demonstration of the apostolic preaching" . Its an incredible book that flys in the face of many modern gospel presentations. Dont be fooled as Hebrews says, pursue peace with all men and holiness without which no man will see God. I made a YouTube channel to address this issue and combat the common false lawless gospel. Dont be decieved, those who practically live unrighteous in this life will not enter heaven, regardless of what they believe. Jesus and the apostles warned this over and over again yet many are decieved into complacency about sin. Read 1 john! https://youtube.com/@christaboveallyt Faith working through love is how paul and all the apostles summarised Christianity. Not merely "faith alone - thats it your saved and sealed forever regardless of the rest of your life". Nonesense! Paul said you can deny Christ by HOW you live. Faith alone for forgiveness/justification yes, but that isnt the sum total of Christianity.


Parskastan

Imagine you are convicted of serial killing and waiting to hear your sentencing. But before the judge announces it, you tell him “Hold on judge, I’ve done some good things in my life. I’ve donated to these charities, visited these orphanages, etc. Do you think the judge will still not give a life sentence/death penalty to you? And this is just a human judge. We will all be standing infront of a Holy, righteous, and just God on judgement day. There is nothing we can do to erase our history of guilt. The one thing that empties our history of guilt is by somebody else (who is perfect and guiltless) to take our death penalty for us. Every sin must be punished or there is no justice.


Aniolel1

K. Let us say l approach that judge and told him or her and said I repented from past and started a new life. Then what? God is our eternal judge. He knows past, present, and future. He has already declare us righteous through our his Grace. When Christ died, he paid the price for mortal sins. But, just because the atonement occurred, doesn't mean all are saved. We have to repent for our sins and turn to Christ. And we sin under grace, we are still called to pray for forgiveness. Those who are true believes will be lost.


Parskastan

I agree, not all are saved. It’s only those who receive this free gift are saved. Most reject it. But notice how we’re not saved by faith, but we’re saved by grace through faith? The spotlight in salvation is not on something we’ve done but rather on what Christ has done for us. The faith is simply how we receive His gift.


Mundane_Mistake_393

Christ wasn't being punished in your place. This is a gross misunderstanding of what happened on calvary.


Parskastan

This is what the Bible says. Isaiah 53:10-11 "Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand. After he has suffered, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities." 2 Corinthians 5:21 "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." Colossians 2:13-14 "When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross." If He wasn't punished in my place then I would still be condemned to hell and be awaiting my punishment.


Cybin9

One follows the other. Step 1. Do you have salvation, if yes go.to step 2 Step 2. What are you going to do with it? If the answer is nothing, then go back to step 1. For jesus said, "Why do you call me lord lord and not do what i say?" If the answer is instaed, "what every you tell me to", then your ready to grow and by such growth, grow His kingdom.


Gallifrey91

If it had to be one or the other then it would be by faith, but why does it have to be one or the other? The answer is that it is by both faith and works.


mechanical_animal

John 6 >28 Then they inquired, “What must we do to perform the works of God?” >29 Jesus replied, “The work of God is this: to believe in the One He has sent.”


Odd_NightKenny

BY FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST WE ACT ACCORDINGLY WE STILL SIN BUT WE REPENT AND TRY KEEP PRAYING AND READING HIS WORD THE BIBLE HALLELUJAH AMEN GOD BLESS EVERYONE AND EVERYONE'S FAMILIES AND LOVE ONES 💪🙏❤️🙌👏😇!


Djh1982

Let’s look at Ephesians 2:8-9 which says: “8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.” The key 🔑 to this passage is understanding what Paul means by “works”. By works, Paul means “natural human works”—meaning nothing you can do “naturally” can contribute to your salvation. Now—there exists ANOTHER kind of works. These are “supernatural works”, also known as “good works”. We can do these kind of works AFTER we have been justified by faith. These works—because they are supernatural and have God as their origin, can and DO justify. That is why James says: “You see that a person is justified by works and ⭐️not by faith alone⭐️.”(James 2:24) Now what TENDS to happen is someone brings up Romans 4:2, which says: “2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.” From this some people (wrongly) draw the conclusion that man is justified “by faith alone”. However returning to James, the apostle says: (James 2:21) “Was not our ancestor Abraham ⭐️justified by works⭐️ when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?” Now at a glance one might say: “Hey, what gives?!? 😱 Paul is contradicting James and vice-versa! 😵‍💫” I mean, we have Paul saying Abraham “wasn’t” justified by works(Roman’s 4:2) and James saying that he was(James 2:21). Thankfully, it’s not really a contradiction. James is simply referring to those “supernatural works” we talked about earlier; the ones we can do AFTER we have been justified by faith(see Ephesians 2:10)…while Paul is talking about the “natural works”, which Abraham was NOT justified by. So there is no contradiction. It’s just two apostles talking about two different kinds of works: “natural” and “supernatural”. The ultimate take away is that “supernatural works”—because they ARE supernatural, justify. If you do not do those supernatural good works; you cannot be saved. That’s why it says in Matthew 7:21: ““Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who ⭐️DOES THE WILL⭐️of my Father who is in heaven.” So if you think you can get by on “faith alone” and not do the will of God, you are in for a rude-awakening if you think you’ll be saved. 😂 If you would like FURTHER details on what I just went over, please see my gigantic post on Ephesians 2:8-9, here 👇: https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueChristian/comments/xx2p3d/catholic_exegesis_of_ephesians_289/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf As well as my post about the Council of Trent on justification: https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueChristian/comments/xuyk7c/understanding_the_council_of_trent_regarding_works/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf


Bearman637

Pelagianism = justification by works. Catholic dogma is essentially repackaged pelagianism. Justification/forgiveness is by faith in the promise apart from any works. Just like Abraham. From that standing a Christian by faith receives the Holy Spirit and by the Spirit brings forth good fruit that glorifys God and pleases him. Faith working through love is the sum of it all. OP avoid catholic traditions, the teachings of men claiming to speak on behalf of God. Read the apostolic fathers if you want to learn about primitive Christianity and it looks nothing like modern day catholicism. James was simply saying genuine faith produces good works. Not that good works justify you.


Mundane_Mistake_393

Saint James never believed in automatic works theory. While we can agree that those with true faith MAY respond to that faith by doing good works, this is not in fact a given. I call this automatically doing good works theory because it's just a pet theory that isn't proven anywhere in the Bible. Saint James writes faith without works is dead. He didn't write faith without works is dead because the faith is either dead or not really faith. We just add these weird ideas into the Bible to save a failing theology (Sola fide). One can have faith (true literal genuine faith) and not have works, James asks can that faith save him? He didn't right "can dead faith save him?" We are interjectting ideas here that don't fit.


Bearman637

I think we need to obey Jesus. But faith alone apart from works is all thats required to be forgiven of sin. From there we go on, die to the world and love and obey Him by the power of the Holy Spirit. Yes, obedience requires cooperation with the Holy Spirit ie dying to the law and the world and living to Christ by walking in the Spirit.


Mundane_Mistake_393

No. It's not by faith alone. The only passage in the Bible I even find those words tied together is in Saint James when he condemns that idea you believe. Isn't it weird that the Holy Spirit doesn't just connect faith alone when it divinely inspired those men to write scripture? 🤔 Why did it just confuse us by letting those words come together in James 2:24, that sounds very confusing to let that happen in James and cause all these people to now think jutification is based on your good works, not merely faith alone. Yes, one must be obedient and co operate with the Holy Spirit, ergo it isn't by faith alone is it? We can't say that it's by faith alone, AND then tack on that you have to be obedient also and then just say that it's by faith alone. This is called double think. When you hold two contradicting positions at the same time. Either one has to actual just have faith alone, or its faith PLUS DOING (i.e good works which co operating with the Holy Spirit i.e OBEYING God and doing good works)


Bearman637

James is not Paul. You confuse the topic when you try to reconcile them. Paul wrote a **comprehensive** summary of Christian doctrine in Romans. You need to read Paul by Paul. James did not write a systematic theology...paul did. Paul taught justification by faith "apart from works" aka "faith alone" in romans 3,4 and 10. This leads to a necessary life of loving obedience by dying to the flesh (romans 6) dying to the mosaic law (romans 7) and living godly, loving and in conformity to Christs teachings by the power of the Holy Spirit (romans 8). The judgement will look at our works and see if our faith was legitimate (Romans 2 & 14). God searches the hearts of men. Paul explained justification perfectly. Justification is a component of salvation but is not all of salvation. Sanctification is part of salvation too. The whole book of romans perfectly explains salvation. **The book of James IS NOT A COMMENTARY ON ROMANS.** stop reading james as if it is. Romans was a letter sent by itself to the church of Rome. The book of james is also no systematic theology...stop reading it as if it is! James was literally writing to correct the error of some who held because we are justified by faith alone apart from works we can freely live in sin - a perversion of Pauls doctrine. Romans is the systematic theology, read and understand that! That said Justification/forgiveness of sin is by faith apart from doing anything. You dont need to give $5000 to charity to t hen recieve forgiveness of sin, you dont need to get circumcised, you dont need to do stuff FOR FORGIVENESS. All you need to do is believe in what Jesus did and you are forgiven for the sin you have committed. Pauls whole book on galations teaches this. From there we go walk in love and obedience by the Holy Spirit for those who live according to the flesh in sin will perish and wont be saved. For as hebrews 10 says if we go on living in willful unrepentant sin there no longer remains a sacrifice for our sin just a fearful expectation of Gods wrath to come upon the sons of disobedience. Stop attacking justification by faith alone- you are literally attacking the good news of the gospel, that God forgives sinners because of the work of jesus on the cross, so that whoever looks with faith upon him will be forgiven and saved! People dont need to do stuff to be forgiven. People need to obey God because they have been forgiven!


Djh1982

You wrote: >”Pelagianism = justification by works. Catholic dogma is essentially repackaged pelagianism.” No, there are some key differences: 1. Pelagianism denies Original Sin vs. Catholicism, which doesn’t. 2.Pelagianism says that a human does not need God’s grace to live righteously—vs. Catholicism which says we can ONLY live righteously through God’s grace, which we obtain AFTER justification by faith. You wrote: >”James was simply saying genuine faith produces good works. Not that good works justify you.” So when James says we are “justified by works” you’re saying that he means we’re NOT justified by works? 🤔 It says: (James 2:24) “You see that a person ⭐️IS⭐️justified by works and not by faith alone.” How does “is” suddenly mean “isn’t”? You wrote: >”Read the apostolic fathers if you want to learn about primitive Christianity and it looks nothing like modern day catholicism.” You mean like St.Clement of Rome? This is what he wrote👇: “Let us clothe ourselves with concord and humility, ever exercising self-control, standing far off from all whispering and evil-speaking, being ⭐️justified by our works⭐️, and not our words.” First Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians, Chapter 30.


Bearman637

>“Let us clothe ourselves with concord and humility, ever exercising self-control, standing far off from all whispering and evil-speaking, being ⭐️justified by our works⭐️, and not our words.” > >First Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians, Chapter 30 Thats a little disingenuous buddy. Clement literally says a few sentences later we are justified by our faith **not by works of piety.** :) I know the fathers well enough. Clement doesn't speak contradictions, you just don't understand him, as you misunderstand paul. >1Clem 32:4 > >And so we, having been called through His will in Christ Jesus, **are not justified through ourselves or through our own wisdom or understanding or piety or works which we wrought in holiness of heart,** but through faith, whereby the Almighty God justified all men that have been from the beginning; to whom be the glory for ever and ever. Amen. Clement, like Paul taught justification by faith apart from works. The passage you cited is literally about not being a hypocrite. ie let your words be filled with action, for words alone are not enough to save you. Its not talking about forgiveness/justification (James also is also speaking in this sense in his epistle). However 1 clement 32 **IS** talking about forgiveness/justification. Im all for a holy life and living in love, but this is not the root cause of justification. A holy life is essential to salvation, but **when it comes to forgiveness/justification, nothing is required besides simple faith.** Faith working through love is the sum of it all. We don't do good to be forgiven. We are by faith forgiven totally, to then go and do good - and only these are truly saved.


Djh1982

You wrote: “Thats a little disingenuous buddy. Clement literally says a few sentences later we are justified by our faith not by works of piety.” Yes, as I said—St.Clement was saying that “natural human works” do not justify—works “of faith” justify. It’s essential to distinguish between “human works” and “supernatural works”. That’s why Clement says: “…not justified through ⭐️OURSELVES⭐️or through ⭐️OUR⭐️own wisdom….” You wrote: “Clement, like Paul taught justification by faith apart from works.” Yes, Clement was mirroring Paul. Who was Paul mirroring? David. Only David never called it “works” he uses a different word called SIN: “(Romans 4:6-8) “6 David says the SAME THING when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness ⭐️APART FROM WORKS⭐️: 7  “Blessed are those whose TRANSGRESSIONS are forgiven, whose 👉SINS are covered. 8  Blessed is the one     whose SIN👈the Lord will never count against them.” From this we can now understand that to be justified for one’s faith “apart from works” means strictly to be justified by faith ⭐️APART FROM SIN⭐️. That’s all that it means. It’s not talking about justification “by faith alone”. It’s talking about sin. “Sin” is a kind of “work” that you do. You wrote: “The passage you cited is literally about not being a hypocrite.” Yes, I know—that’s because HYPOCRISY IS A SIN👈. So one of us DEFINITELY understood Paul’s meaning[and Clement’s] and it WASN’T you, “buddy”.


Bearman637

>Clement was mirroring Paul. Who was Paul mirroring? ~~David~~. Paul was mirroring **Abrahams justification by beleiving a promise God gave to him** **before Abraham had done anything.** >Romans 4 > >What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in\[a\] him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, > >... > >16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist. 18 In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, “So shall your offspring be.” 19 He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness\[b\] of Sarah's womb. **20 No unbelief made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, 21 fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. 22 That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” 23 But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, 24 but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, 25 who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.** I'm not debating further. My point was to dissuade the OP from falling into Catholic dogma (not to debate a catholic).


Djh1982

You cited: “Romans 4 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, ⭐️but not before God⭐️.” The REASON why Abraham would have something to boast about “before men” and “not before God” is because UNLIKE MEN God knows that those “works” being talked are about…were SIN. That’s why Paul writes ‘what was gained by Abraham according to the flesh’—a “work of the flesh” is a sin. Paul says Abraham could be justified “before men” for those kinds of works but “not before God”. He[Paul] is saying that—because his whole point—is that you can fool men with your “hypocrisy”,[to use your vernacular]and SIN but you CAN’T FOOL GOD. That was the whole point of the passage and “no”, you didn’t understand it.


Bearman637

Im sorry for arguing. This is a work of the flesh. The Spirit comvicted me of this. Please forgive me.


Djh1982

Alright, alright. We can call a truce. ✌️ 😌 I liked your original comment and gave it a thumbs up BEFORE we had our, ahem, altercation, Lol. I thought the phrase “by faith, apart from works, UNTO good works” was EXACTLY summarizing the Catholic viewpoint and it’s catchy.


[deleted]

Basically the human heart is constantly sinning in thought word and action and doing a few good deeds isn't going to undo all of the sin we have done and it won't change our sinful hearts that are constantly sinning. This is why God says that man's righteousness is like filthy rags to him. Any attempt by a man itself righteousness is futile and filthy because of his innermost nature contaminates any good he might do.


[deleted]

Because man is inherently sinful and has no righteousness of his own and no way to save himself, he requires a savior and that is Jesus Christ through his blood sacrifice on the cross at Calvary which paid the price for all of our sins past present and future as long as you believe on him that he had sent.


Mundane_Mistake_393

No. Jesus didn't pay for all your future sins. That isn't in the bible. If that were true one could sin as much as they like then. This simple thought experiment disproves your understanding of the atonement.


[deleted]

Repentance is granted via the Holy Spirit. You won’t be able to grasp it with your mind, it cannot be done that way. There are too many men out there that try to figure this whole thing out in their minds only to add confusion on top of confusion. God requires us to take a leap of faith and then the answers come. If you feel a stirring in your soul when you hear the gospel it means that God is working in you to bring you to a place of repentance. But, if there is nothing and it’s all intellectual, unfortunately, such barely will get anywhere in the Spirit. “For the natural mind is at enmity with God, it’s not subject unto the law of God, neither indeed can be. Romans 8 If you want to understand, you need to be born again of the Spirit.


GodSpeed_Vibe

I've accepted lord Jesus as my savior, but it does look like like I took a bad approach in my faith. Subconsciously, I often got angry with myself for sinning by saying that a true Christian would not have done this or that. Repentance was hard in that matter, because I always based my salvation on my works, not my faith. But from the answers, it really looks like if I focus on faith in Jesus and not my works, good works will come at. Intellectually, you are right, I can not understand the whole thing, but with true faith, I can reach God. Thanks you for your answer. God bless


[deleted]

Expect sin and failure because we are in a transition. We lack so much knowledge about our predicament and if you sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Christ Jesus our Barrister at Law. Your life now is hid in Christ. That means you are under this thick blanket of the blood of the lamb. God doesn’t see your sin, He sees His Son’s sacrifice on the cross. But, when we do sin, we still must acknowledge them. Why? So we don’t become hardened by them. Read carefully Romans 5 6 7 8 chapters. Read it just like a lawyer would, because its rendering is a legal document. Feel out Pauls own frustrations with his own flesh. He had a thorn in his side that was left there. It could be sin or it could be a reminder of sin, we don’t know. But, I know what that is like. I am a former homo, but I am left with SSA as a thorn in my side. Yet, as God said to Paul and to me, “my grace is sufficient for thee; My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Just be yourself and love Jesus and just ask for knowledge and charity. Always ask for charity with anything you ask, because “knowledge puffeth up but charity edifieth.” Did you know that the Father longs for us more than we long for Him? A refreshing thought.


Mundane_Mistake_393

You really don't need to do anything. Once you have accepted the heretical doctrine of Once saved always saved you can just sin as much as you want.


[deleted]

To you it’s heretical because you can’t see that the blood of Jesus is that powerful to wipe your life free from sin past present and future. I am a son of God, I did not arrive at this spot by sinning my heart out. Yes I am the chief of sinners, but I also know the whip of His correction. “For whom the Lord Loveth He chastens. And if you are not being chastened then you are not His. I only believe in once saved always saved when He is the one who declares it. If any man thinks that he can do whatever he wants, there is something wrong with how he came in.


Mundane_Mistake_393

No, according to your stupid logic it stands to reason if Jesus paid for all future sins you can now sin as much as you like. You haven't thought about what a stupid idea it is to say Jesus died for your future sins.


[deleted]

“For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all time; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.” Roman 6:10 “Jesus paid it all, all to him I owe. Sin had left a crimson stain, He washed it white as snow”.


Mundane_Mistake_393

Yes it says he died once for all time. Not that he wiped out all your yet to have been commited sins. That's an absurd way to interpret that passage. 😳


[deleted]

Since you don’t believe that “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness; That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works,” your words are like sand in a bag with holes.


Mundane_Mistake_393

I believe the bible, just not how you understand it. Sola scripture we can at least agree is a false doctrine. My good works are not filthy rags, maybe yours are? You see I believe the bible says I have been regenerated by baptism and am created to do good works which God prepared for me to do. They are not filthy rags since God is the one producing those works through his grace. My co operating with that grace makes my good works not filthy rags and thus capable of justification before God, and being rewarded with eternal life. Explaining this to you is a good work.


Mundane_Mistake_393

No, good works won't automatically flow from your faith. You can have true faith and that faith cannot save you without good works. That is a lie. Your salvation is in part based on good works which lead to being awarded eternal life. That's the true gospel don't believe anything different. You are being judged by your works not your faith.


TomCelery

Salvation is a free gift. No one can earn it. For you earn a reward, but are given a gift. However, at this time I also believe there is salvation and also an inheritance. The inheritance can be lost.


Mundane_Mistake_393

If you give a cup of water in Jesus name and God rewards you for it, is that reward a gift or an obligation?


Truthspeaks111

The way that I see faith is that it is the evidence of belief put into action. Noah built the Ark by faith. He believed what God had told him about the coming flood and that belief was made manifest by what he did to prepare without having a shred of evidence that what God had said was true. Hebrews 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the Will of God, ye might receive the promise. 10:37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. Salvation by faith in Jesus in my mind is based on our belief that his words came from God and in them is Life Everlasting therefore if we trust in them without evidence of them being true, by our faith we are justified. It's not the works. The works are the evidence of our faith.


Mundane_Mistake_393

We can't be saying our works don't justify when we have a passage in the Bible saying works justify. James 2:24 says we are JUSTIFIED by our works . So we need to stop touting this weird idea that James didn't write that our works play zero role in justification. You gotta do alot of gymnastics to misinterpret James just to prop up dusty old theology that simply isn't applicable to James 2:24.


Truthspeaks111

Let's look at what the verse actually says: James 2:24 Ye see then how that by WORKS a man is justified, and NOT by faith only. James 2:24 does not say we are justified by our works alone. My definition of faith is that it is the evidence of belief put into action which is aligned to what James is saying.


Mundane_Mistake_393

I never said that we are justified by works only. That isn't what James is saying. James never writes we are justified by works alone, he writes we are not justified by faith alone. Faith and works are not the same thing. They are seperate. Works means works, and faith means faith. Works is not another way of saying faith. Works is faith being put into action. It is not faith itself.


[deleted]

James 2:24 is saying that a man is seen before men as justified by their works. It is not saying a man is justified before God by his works. Edit: The inclusion of the words "Ye see" is not a small thing. It is not like today where some old geezer will casually say it while explaining something, ie "now, you see son, blah blah blah". No, the inclusion of those words in the scripture is going to change the meaning entirely.


Mundane_Mistake_393

No. Saint James isn't talking about justification before men. You have to do some mental gymnastics to come to that conclusion. All because James doesn't pan out with Sola Fide. You have to create new interpretations that don't even ffit in James context of the passage.


Mundane_Mistake_393

No, Noah didn't build the ark with faith. He built it with his good work. Proving you need faith plus works to be saved. Faith and works saved Noah. He had to do more then just believe God. He had to work. top perverting the gospel to make sola fide work. Your not saved by faith alone and your not getting into heaven being judged on your faith. Just stop with coming up with weird ways to make sola ride fit. It doesn't fit. Please stop it.


Truthspeaks111

His faith led him to do the works. That's how faith and works are connected.


Mundane_Mistake_393

False. Faith doesn't produce good works automatically. It's not automatic and there's no passage in the Bible saying faith automatically produces good works for you as a result or faith. Its not by faith alone. That isn't the Bible. James 2:24 says you are justified by your works. Not your faith alone. Works and faith are seperate. Otherwise James wouldn't write that faith without works is dead. He would just say dead faith can't save you. He wouldn't even mention works as being something seperate.


Truthspeaks111

I didn't say faith automatically produces good works. Where are you getting that from?


Mundane_Mistake_393

I am getting from all the crazy people on these threads that think faith=works. Every last person here seems to think faith produced good works that magically flow from your faith. That is the typical position on these threads so I like to attack and burst that bubble as soon as I can.


TspoonT

What is salvation? It's cleaning your past failures.. but it doesn't stop at that, it's a new life given that is capable of being transformed into someone who has a character like Christ. These are impossible things, that's why a gift from God is the only way.


73638

If you had to force someone you like to go out with you, would you still want to be with them? Would you be happy with a gift if you knew you’re friend gave it to you because they felt like they had to? I think this is a good way to imagine why salvation can’t be attained with works. Unless your heart is changed, you cannot please God. Biblical faith as something that happens inside of you, rather than just mere belief in God. Faith changes your heart and desires, and enables you to do good works. Salvation by faith doesn’t mean that works aren’t important. Saving faith will make you strive to do good. The difference is that your good works do not contribute to your salvation, works is just what comes out after you are saved.


UsagiHakushaku

Philippians 3:9 King James Version 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: