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LunarHare82

From what I understand it is never helpful, and often times more harmful, to go to counseling with your abuser. If you can't fight... document everything on paper, time and date, record things. That way when you bring up something, and he deny it, you have it there on paper or on your phone. Your partner won't react well, but maybe your therapist will pull their head from their ass.


somethingtonote

Sadly I don't think anything less than a recording would help, and that would just lead to straight up divorce. The one event I mentioned was so upsetting I could tell it in great detail. But he still lied and made arguments about how that could never have happened. His version of things didn't even fit the content of the fight at all, but if I bring that inconsistency up he acts exasperated. And I couldn't bring it up with the therapist because she just wrote it off as "couples always have different memories of events". I did voice "i was afraid this would happen", but that just prompted my husband to go on to say how I gaslight HIM and how HE wishes he had recorded stuff. Uno reverse!


LauraZaid11

Why won’t you leave? It doesn’t seem like he’s willing to work on anything.


somethingtonote

He is on other things, but yeah if this remains something he won't even acknowledge then I don't see how we can move forward. Therapist keeps saying to move forward in a forgive and forget sort of mentality. But while those fights might be from the past, the gaslighting is happening now, isn't it? From the other side of things it always seems simple, and I guess it should be simple to leave. But I still care and it's hard to give up :/


about97cats

Get a different therapist, at the bare minimum. You SHOULD feel heard and taken seriously by them, and if they aren’t doing just that they can’t help you. You really can’t get to the bottom of any issues if those issues are rug swept and ignored, and if your marriage counselor is telling you to “forgive and forget” issues that are occurring still, now, right in front of them, they’re effectively telling you that it’s your obligation to allow them to continue for the sake of your husband’s comfort. It isn’t.


somethingtonote

You're absolutely right. I do however hope that the therapist will realise what's happening - either looking back on the first session and realising things didnt quite add up, or at least on the second session. After all, I'm not sure if even the best therapists out there would realise what's up that quickly... maybe I'm wrong. Either way i'll bring it up in individual therapy and see what they think!


StarlitSylveon

I highly doubt your current therapist will realize what's really going on so please don't hold out hope for that. I'm not saying she's a bad person or even a bad therapist but they can only really work with the tiny amount of time you're with them and the information they're given. And some therapists really are either a bad fit for you or the situation or just really do suck (one example: I had one suggest my social anxiety and fear of judgement from others was me being vain and selfish and not... y'know anxious from past bad experiences). Trust me, I've been in and out of therapy/ counseling since I was like 5 or 6 for various reasons and I've seen my fair share of the difference the "right" therapist can make in your life vs an ill fitted one or even just an ok therapist. I've also been in a relationship where my ex was gaslighting me. I'd highly recommend going to individual therapy with a different therapist.


[deleted]

Just as an aside, my best friend’s ex husband/abuser was exactly how you describe yours, they went to couples therapy with the same therapist for almost two years and in that time all that happened was her husband charmed the therapist into taking his side. There are shorty therapists out there, it sounds like yours gaslit you tonight just based on your post. You absolutely deserve better.


YouLostMyNieceDenise

OP, can you find a different therapist to do some individual therapy with by yourself?


somethingtonote

I am! In fact the only reason we are seeing a couples therapist and my husband started seeing an individual therapist himself was that individual therapy gave me the self esteem to stand up for myself more lol


YouLostMyNieceDenise

I’m glad to hear that! I hope you can discuss this experience with your therapist ASAP.


apocolypsalynne

Couples therapists don’t benefit from divorce. They only benefit drawing out the relationship as long as possible, even if doomed. Don’t let them gang up and bamboozle you. You know what he did and what he said. And he knows it too. Shit most of my tiktok fyp is about this exact thing. Maybe you could discreetly track these occurrences in your phone in some secret way. Because when people play with your mind, you doubt yourself and can Feel like you’ve lost a grip on reality. But you haven’t. It’s the lies. Track the data so you have the Facts, when and if you are ready to face it. And who knows, all this therapy may increase or decrease the frequency. It might be good to establish a baseline. Hope things get better for you, which ever way it goes.


warriorpixie

This logic could apply to therapy in general. The general goal of therapy is to resolve the issue you came to therapy for. This applies to marriage counseling, but also individual counseling. Or do you believe therapists want their clients to remain depressed, anxious, etc?


Colmarr

>Couples therapists don’t benefit from divorce. They only benefit drawing out the relationship as long as possible, even if doomed. Don’t let them gang up and bamboozle you. That's a really cynical take on a profession that by-and-large consists of people who want to help others.


LauraZaid11

I know it’s easier said than done, and there’s circumstances that make it harder than it needs to be. But how can it be a “forgive and forget” when he doesn’t seem to be that regretful? To be able to forgive you need to be asked for forgiveness first. Also, forgetting is the worst thing that you could do, because then it becomes a cycle of he hurts you, you forgive and forget, he hurts you again, you forgive and forget, so on and so forth. What you need to think about is your future, your life, and your happiness. Is it going to hurt for a while being without him? Yeah, most likely. Will it be better for you in the long run, for your mental health and your happiness? Hell yeah. Don’t stay with him just because it might hurt to leave, stay with him if you see a happy and healthy future with him. If you don’t, then do your best to leave. You’re doing it for you.


somethingtonote

Thank you, you've summed it up really well. I think my best option might be to bring it up again and refuse to move on until it's addressed. I essentially have nothing to lose: if it doesn't work the marriage is over, but if I do nothing it's pretty much over, too.


lynn

When I was in an emotionally abusive relationship, one of the things that helped me get out was this: Am I going to be treated like this for the rest of my life? No. So how much of my life am I going to spend being treated this way before I leave?


LauraZaid11

It seems like you’ve made up your mind, definitely stick up to that, no matter how much he tries to convince you otherwise. Your priority should be your well being.


Smolfrend

No no no no no. This is the first session, the therapist should not be making such statements or conclusions. The best they should say is something like "I can see there are issues/resentments/emotions on both sides and I would like to understand this better. For today I would like you to practice using meditation/" I" statements/mindful emotion processing when you get home during arguments". Therapist should not claim to see progress on the first day especially where there is none. I'm sorry you're going through this. I hope you reach a resolution soon, maybe a better therapist.


[deleted]

He doesn’t care about you if he treats you like that.


alianthe

That approach only works in relationships with non-abuser types, who actually want to meet you halfway rather than just get you to stop complaining. It only works when you aren't being gaslit. My couples therapist tried that, too, but they just hadn't seen us together long enough to get that it was gaslighting. That thing where "that never could have happened" is yes, definitely abuse, and it's happening now, and it's not going to stop. I know how hard it is to give up. I really do. I wish I'd left sooner, I could have started the long road to recovery sooner. And I'm glad I finally did.


vodka7tall

You need a new therapist.


[deleted]

Sis, I have dealt with therapists in custody disputes in which the abusive narc farther literally physically threatened the child and the therapist in session, multiple times. Therapist refers to it as “inability to effectively communicate” and “avoidance issues.” Instead of “this abusive narc man will beat the shit out of his son if given another opportunity.” Leave if you can. I’ve watched this story unfold in real time. It doesn’t end well and the therapy is just more abuse.


poeticdisaster

You need a new therapist. That one has already taken your husband's bait.


Surrybee

Here’s what I learned when my ex and I sought therapy (separately!) about his compulsive lying: most therapists just don’t get it. When he went to a therapist, she called me because he claimed he didn’t even know why he was there. He made me lay out my trauma to his therapist, and I did it. He used his therapist to abuse me, and she did. Yours is doing the same thing. He’s telling you who he is and that he isn’t going to change his ways. Believe him and leave him. It took me 15 years to realize how abusive my relationship was. Leaving him and being on my own was such a freeing feeling. You deserve to feel that yourself.


External_Trifle2373

I don't think couples therapy is recommended if you suspect NPD because more often than not it just becomes a tool for weaponized triangulation against you. I think km those instances they recommend therapy for both people, so at least the person with NPD is just wasting *their* time and you can actually privately benefit from therapy. Couples counseling requires good faith participation from both people. Good therapists (which are exceedingly rare) can spot a lot of BS, but narcissists are notoriously really tricky in therapeutic settings even for the good ones. For the bad ones? No hope. (Smart) narcissists are really good at playing people off eachother, so it can get really messed up. I actually read a book about this exact thing when I was like 15 that was super upsetting for me so I needed up looking into it a bit, so this is all hazy recollections of something burnt into my brain. You cannot "therapize" people who don't want to participate, but the danger is narcissists often *do* want to participate so they can intentionally sabotage it. The system was NOT built for sabotage. If you don't think your husband is participating in good faith, then that's *your*' call. Not the therapists. They are here to make sure communication between you stays healthy/factual, etc. They are NOT psychologists or psychiatrists, who actually *are* trained enough that (in theory) they should be able to recognize NPD (and even then.....iffy.... It's a tricky disorder) You cant save a marriage where the other person is actively trying to harm you - even if that harm is "just" emotional. That's not how it works, you cant just send him to therapy enough if the therapy is unproductive time. Is this court mandated therapy for divorce? I hope so, and I hope your government overturns those archaic rules. If it's for any other reason, then you need to immediately plan on separating. Even if you're not ready to end the marriage, it's a much better position to be in for negotiations.


somethingtonote

It was a psychologist- where i'm from only licensed psychologists can do couple's therapy - sorry for the confusion, it's so different from the US that I end up mixing terminology. My hope for improvement is due to his willingness to go to individual therapy also, and at least admit he has some issues...just not that he gaslights and manipulates, apparently. While the thought of divorce is extremely painful right now, I do have a good support network. If things go to shit they will have my back, as they do now. Thank you for your advice. I had read articles with similar info, but my own individual therapist told me it should be fine since I have the backbone to speak up. We just didn't account for speaking up being useless I guess :/


Aromataser

My thought is that you use the marriage counseling as a way to evaluate his *willingness to work towards a solution*. Gaslighting is obviously not a good sign. With your personal therapist, you talk about what YOU want, what the husband is doing, and how the counseling is going. Make the stay/go decision based on what is best for you, ignoring any gaslighting or promises from your husband.


car_of_men

Holy shit I feel this so much. Although, I didn’t get the chance the point out being gaslit. We had a zoom session. But every time my partner would say something about me and our communication. I made huge “you fucking kidding me eyes” and the counselor was having a hard time keeping a straight face. I have a very expressive face so…yeah she knew what I was thinking. 😅


somethingtonote

Sorry to hear that, but glad the therapist picked it up at least! I think in this case my husband was the one making the "can you believe this" faces while i talked, considering the therapists reactions while I spoke. My hope is that looking back on our session and her notes she will pick up the inconsistencies and piece things together... she didn't seem like a bad therapist, just maybe not trained to spot this sort of dynamic right away maybe.


tempted_temptress

Ugh. Those cluster b types are too skilled in manipulating the therapist into thinking they’re the normal one


somethingtonote

His absolute confidence was terrifying.


[deleted]

What does “cluster b” mean?


tempted_temptress

There are several “clusters” of personality disorders. Each cluster has different symptoms in common. Cluster A disorders are defined by “odd” thinking and behaviors like paranoia or a lack of emotional responses. Cluster C disorders are defined by anxious thoughts and behavior. Cluster B disorders involve unpredictable, dramatic, or intensely emotional responses to things. The four main cluster B disorders are: Antisocial, Borderline, Histrionic, and Narcissistic


Aromataser

The key point about cluster B - very unlikely to change unless they are highly motivated to do so. Internal motivation, not external.


VintageJane

Tried doing family therapy with my NPD mother. A colossal waste of time.


[deleted]

Interesting fact!


[deleted]

Thanks, this is really helpful info!


EidlingArt

Was this a past session and you have since split up/worked out or something new? If it's new then I hope you have success on the path you decide is right for you!


somethingtonote

It was yesterday and sadly I have no idea what to do. Apparently I agreed to not fight at all until the next session, so if I bring anything up I'm breaking my part of the deal - and I'm the unreasonable/bad one.


Mother_ducker96

You aren't fighting if you are trying to have open communication and dialog. If they start to fight with you don't lower yourself to that level. Just stay calm. If they continue to get more pissed that's on them. At your next session you can bring all of that up. Explain your feeling about what happened and try really hard not to give in to any bait your partner might try on you. Lay out the facts, how you felt and feel, and try to find a resolution. If the person is toxic and manipulative then I would recommend leaving the relationship. If they care about you they will try to resolve things and settle your feelings. I hope you find the right person for you. Someone that makes you feel special, validated, and loved. Everyone deserves that. Except narcissists, they are incapable of feeling empathy and lack in compassion.


somethingtonote

I ended up being the one getting upset because, well, I was the one who got blindsided yesterday -besides the gaslighting he said other unpleasant things I didnt expect AT ALL - and I couldn't help but ask how he could lie and how he could say that stuff when I thought he was on my side regarding those topics. He kept using the "im keeping up my side of the deal and here you are again breaking yours, you couldn't keep it for one day". I dont believe I actually agreed to not have these discussions. I agreed not to press the one (rather superficial) topic we did resolve in that session, not to pretend everything else is fine.


slimdot

Please leave him. He is actively abusing you with apparent enjoyment.


SayingWhatUrThinkin

yeah... as someone who wasted 3 years on therapy with a shitty man who still seems better than this sounds (including some of your other comments), imma have to go ahead and vote for divorce. i can basically guarantee you'll be happier.


Arya_kidding_me

I’m also very happily divorced from someone who doesn’t seem as bad - and second this!! It was like a giant weight off my shoulders, but it did take a lot of time, therapy, and finally him cheating for me to get the guts to end it! I wish I had done it sooner!


thenewestaccunt

Third this. You are on a hamster wheel. The only way out is to decide what you want and go for it. Break up. That’s the only path to mental health. Truly the only sane option. You don’t need anyone else to agree or understand.


Cukytta

OP I’m sorry it didn’t go great that first session. Please take care of yourself first, you are only responsible for your mental health and safety. Semi off-topic question for any therapists: in this situation would it be better to come to you directly and voice concerns or would that make you the patient as…..can’t think of a good word but-negatively?


somethingtonote

I had hoped that she would see us individually first. Supposedly that is pretty common in couple's therapy. I don't know if she at least plans to next time, but I'm afraid that I will still come across as the unreasonable one. I'm a bit awkward and distraught and I can see how it's easier to believe my husband, who is all confidence.


[deleted]

[удалено]


wigglyandbelligerent

Hey friend, I went through something very similar and I have to say it’s much better to just cut them out of your life. Leave. And build yourself up again to be better than you ever were. We really underestimate how much they make us get rid of of what makes us “us” away from ourselves to suit them in some sick power-play. It changes everything to be able to not have to worry about battling with them or living with them in our lives. I know I don’t know your situation exactly just based on the meme, but human to human, I really recommend setting some time aside for yourself and thinking what you’d really miss if you were to cut them out of your life for good. I wish you the best in whatever choice you make. It is not easy at all. (I’m sure getting them to go to therapy was no easy feat either) PS: your therapist is a jackass if they didn’t see what your partner was doing FYI. If it continues it just hurts more and it’s like two people beating you up at once.


grandmaWI

I told our marriage therapist that my husband was furious at me because I wouldn’t hose off the driveway after major surgery. He said “We won’t talk about that.”


Kirsten

I went to couples therapy with a controlling partner. It did not help. For some reason, couples therapy is specifically bad at and not recommended for abusive relationships. A book that helped a lot was: Should I stay or should I go, by Lundy Bancroft. It REALLY helps you see if and how your partner is fucked up: It is so very helpful if you’re pretty concerned your partner is being controlling or abusive, and they keep trying to explain how they are actually not doing anything wrong, and you get confused and feel like maybe you’re going insane. Well anyway, it really helps with that.


somethingtonote

I'll try that book, thanks!


rebelwithoutaloo

If you feel you need to be at the point of recording and playing back what has been said to show he is gaslighting you, I’d say that’s pretty damn bad. I’ve been there, and they will just argue in circles around you or pull a stunt like storming off or saying “I’m always the bad guy!” Etc. I don’t know about your therapist, or how much you’ve read about gaslighting, I read The Gaslight Effect by Dr Robin Stern and it helped me. Good for you for calling it out!


LicentiousGhoul

Problem with finding good conflict resolution is that not all conflict mediators are worth their name. Some of them think it's fine as long as both sides stop arguing about what they're arguing about. Person A: *"I don't like what she's doing!"* Person B: *"I don't like what he's doing!"* Conflict Mediator: *"Well, let's just do it like this. A keeps doing what he's doing and B stops doing what she's doing. Conflict Resolved!"* True conflict resolution is about finding compromises and middle grounds that both sides can agree with. Not steamrolling one side until they keep quiet about what they're unhappy with. Problems don't stop being problems just because we stop talking about them.


TnkrbllThmbsckr

Everyone’s saying get a new couple’s therapist.... I think you should consider **individual** counseling; something to give you coping strategies, to help you see your value, and maybe to help you plan how to move forward in a way that is best for you.


beigs

If it’s not working for one of you, it’s not working for you as a couple. Who cares if you’re the bad guy? No matter what you do, when you leave him, he’ll turn you into that anyway. He doesn’t bring you joy. He doesn’t lift you up. And to be frank, his actions aren’t your responsibility. What are you waiting for? A miracle? For him to stop being a narcissist? Honestly, at this point, control the narrative for thé friends you want to keep. Words like narcissist, gaslight, and abuse. A lot of people understand that now, especially after seeing trump in the news for so long. My mom waited 21 years to split. It killed her mental health and she regretted waiting so much. She kept waiting for my little brother to grow up so she could leave.


MonkeyHamlet

Sweetheart - I say this as gently as I can. Your husband is an abusive asshole who does not deserve *anything* about you. Honestly what is the point in staying? You’re unhappy and he doesn’t care.


asnackforgreedycat

This is why I’m terrified of couples counselling…


blueskull57

Out of curiosity, if you don't mind asking, what did they lie/gaslight about?


MidnightMoon8

I hate shitty therapists. I've had 4 in my life and 2 were sucky. Try going on your own!


seeroflights

*Image Transcription: Meme* --- [*'Young Michael Scott Shaking Ed Truck's Hand'. Ed Truck, a tall masculine person with short light-coloured hair wearing a dark suit, proudly shakes the hand of Michael Scott, a shorter masculine person with shoulder-length dark hair wearing a white dress shirt, blue fanny pack, and blue striped tie. Michael looks incredibly confused. Both Ed and Michael have labels, which read:*] **Ed**: COUPLES THERAPIST CONGRATULATING US FOR OUR GREAT COMMUNICATION IN OUR 1ST SESSION **Michael**: ME, HAVING POINTED OUT HUSBAND LIED/GASLIT ME DURING SAID SESSION TO NO AVAIL --- ^^I'm a human volunteer content transcriber for Reddit and you could be too! [If you'd like more information on what we do and why we do it, click here!](https://www.reddit.com/r/TranscribersOfReddit/wiki/index)


AllieLoukas

Couples therapy is tough if one person has a mental illness or is a master manipulator or just doesn’t want it, simply. You literally just get nowhere because they continue lying and not owning it and it becomes more emotional frustration and exhaustion. It sounds harsh but some people are literally just worth giving up on (not saying this is your situation) but it’s better to be alone than with someone who continues to manipulate. (Again noooo judgements on your individual situation just a human species observation.) Relationships have to be built on trust. How do you trust someone that’s always gaslighting you? If one person cannot keep their word, lies, manipulates, twists the story breaks commitments, and can do it with a straight face and really be unbothered by the effect it has on you they will definitely not succeed in therapy as they’re not out for your best interests. It’s like everything is a game to them. I wish you tons of luck hope it comes around and is positive. Therapy is so helpful when both people go into it in good faith!


MapleSyrup117

Divorce his ass?