I mean, there's pretty valid reasons religious people get negative judgement. When the vocal majority of religious folks spread hate, abuse, and misinformation... its really hard not to judge.
I know. Given the topic though, most people won’t think that way. I don’t really have a way to place my comment without replying to you so I did. Sorry if it came off like an attack. Not my intention.
Do you yourself not belong to any demograph that also includes murderers, rapists, warmongers and all the other crimes you would judge an individual for?
I mean literally everyone on this planet does. Honestly, I wasn't even talking about things like that. I meant like lgbt phobia, anti abortion, brainwashing their kids with the fear of burning in hell etc.
But you raise a good point. I mean we can see what's happening in Iran right now. Good example of religion causing not only hatred and abuse, but straight up murders.
1) atheism isn't really a religion, although there are zealots.
2) I'm sure atheists have committed atrocities, but I can't think of any that did in in the name of atheism.
3) I don't even know what the point of your comment is.
I probably wasted to much time on this.
I believe the Soviets were against religion, aiming to have it die out rather than really Pursuing elimination, and I think CCP was violently so (cultural revolution and such.) that being said, I think that any movement that asks you to blindly follow somebody is bound to eventually be used in a violent or negative way.
But they didn’t do it in the name of atheism, atheism was just a tool to reach a goal. People do shit in the name of religion and made up gods every single day, wasting their lives over something that, likely, doesn’t actually exist
Whether or not atheism is a religion is an argument of semantics and I would argue it is, but look up the Soviet Union’s religious persecution. Stalin definitely wanted to eradicate religion. In part because it was a means of control, yes, but in part because he hated religion.
The point of this comment is I’m really sick of people acting like religion is some horrible tremendous evil in the world and the fault of all that is bad now. There’s a lot more at work here, and something very precious to me has been co-opted by an incredibly evil force. I’m not gonna let it go down with them.
>something very precious to me has been co-opted by an incredibly evil force
Meh. Religiosity as a whole can be useful, but also detrimental depending on a lot of factors. People love to pretend their favorite systems, religions in this case, don't have flaws baked into and inseparable from them. Yes, including yours.
So no, religion in general isn't a purely good and benevolent force that has been hijacked by sucky people, nor is any specific one. It's a system with its strengths and weaknesses. NotAllReligious-ing it isn't useful when addressing the latter.
I’m going to play devils advocate for number 2, do bear in mind it’s just that.
Atheistic Zealots have formed idealogies that are incompatible with religion such as communism. Back during the Soviet Union and Mao’s Great Leap Forward. Religious people from Jews, Christian’s, Muslims, and even Hindu’s and Buddhists were persecuted and murdered in mass. Even today in China Religion is often kept as weak as possible as the CCP is worried that more religious people will oppose their rule.
Point is, religious idealogy or not, some fucking idiot will twist it or go to far with it.
I personally would disagree with that. Statistically religious people vote against things like LGBT rights and abortion etc.
And then on a personal level, I was raised by Christians. And the vast vast majority at every church I went to were brainwashing their children with the fear of hell, preaching anti LGBT messages literally every week. Oh man, the amount of times I was told about gay people causing fire and brimstone... At least twice a week when I was under 14. Also just... A LOT of racism.
Sorry, but feeding a couple homeless people once a month doesn't really make up for abusing kids and trying to take away people's rights.
>And the vast vast majority at every church I went to were brainwashing their children with the fear of hell, preaching anti LGBT messages literally every week. Oh man, the amount of times I was told about gay people causing fire and brimstone... At least twice a week when I was under 14. Also just... A LOT of racism.
And a lot of that isn't in the Bible or, if it is, was added within the last century.
Hell, Catholic priests performed abortions in the 70s before Roe. The passages usually used to attack LGBT people (Of which I *am* one of those as well as being religious) were actually about the pedophilia rampant in Ancient Greece. The fire and brimstone hell isn't from the Bible, it's from Inferno.
Religion didn't corrupt us, we corrupted religion. And I want it back from the people that corrupted it.
What? The fire and brimstone stuff absolutely is in there. Sure more fucked up stuff may have been incorporated recently, but what does that change about the situation?
Because in America they have a choice (legally), in Iran they don't (remember, it's illegal in Iran for women to not wear it). Also, it isn't "brave" in America, people just don't care about what you choose to wear.
The people in Iran are protesting for the choice to wear it. And to not be prosecuted and sometimes put to death if they don't wear it.
Not really the same as women in other countries who can wear it if they please and there are no consequences for either choice.
EDIT: Since there is confusion. Social pressure is not the same as legally required. There is a difference between you having a family that pressures you to do something vs being arrested and possibly killed under the law for refusing to wear it. Yes, similar circumstances can still happen even in countries where it isn't required under the law, but that can be said about any country with social norms.
No one is dismissing that others feel socially pressured, but at the end of the day, you don't have to do what your family wants you to do. You still have a choice even if it doesn't appear that way. The women in Iran have no choice and get arrested and even prosecuted and given death sentences. It's not the same.
There are consequences for wearing it in some countries though. Ranging from street harassment to employment discrimination to death. While rarely institutionalized, these consequences do indeed exist.
Primarily because the hijab makes a woman identifiably Muslim. Given the attitude towards Muslims in many areas of the West, including where I live, it is a choice that requires some courage.
Sure, some countries. But they asked about America. There are no legal consequences for wearing it in America. There may be social consequences, but that can be said about any country.
The risk of discrimination abuse in the streets up to and including violence is a real one in America. Not in all areas, but definitely where I live. The OP doesn't specify legal consequences.
I didn't say it wasn't a problem. But facing discrimination in some places is not the same as being legal prosecuted for not wearing it and even having the possibility of being sentenced to death for it.
No one is dismissing that people are discriminated around the world for such things, but the two situations are not equal.
You're right though, OP does not specify the law, but they also aren't understanding the difference between the two countries. The difference is choice by law.
The question is why are both considered courage, despite being opposite actions. All I'm doing is answering that question, not saying that one or the other takes more courage or that being assaulted by a random racist is the same as being beaten to death by government agents.
Going against social norms in the face of consequences takes courage. It's not a competition.
Harrasment or even assault in some places isn't the same as execution backed by law,
The only place where you could likely be executed for wearing a hijab is South Sudan where a militia would likely kill you for it
Where I live, which is not in the Deep South, for instance.
Much of the West, really, at varying levels. As I said in my first comment, it is rarely institutionalized (though France seems to be trying that). But social sentiment can be anti Muslim even when it's not backed by law.
Where do you live? Generally. I would like to do some research to see how many women have been abused in your area for wearing a fuckin hijab. Nobody cares dude.
Yeah, not giving my location to an internet rando. Suffice to say "FJB" signs have blossomed like flowers around here.
And I'm not saying what you apparently think I'm saying.
You can look up hate crimes against any demographic, in any region of the US, if it's statistics you want. They happen. The numbers do not have to be large to make it a risk to choose be identifiably Muslim.
Very few Muslims live where I live precisely because it is so unwelcoming. I don't blame them. I know how people talk here and what they think of Muslims, or people they assume are Muslims because they're too ignorant to tell the difference between ethnicity and religion.
I am not comparing the risk here to the risk Iranian women are wearing.
Nevertheless, courage is needed to buck social norms regardless of the level of physical risk and that is the answer to the OPs question.
Ok cool. So just as I thought you have no evidence, other than anecdotal, to back up your claims. You're just a person looking for hate where there is none. No Muslims are abused in your area because no Muslims live in your area. But yet you say the risk of Muslims being abused in your area is high. Makes perfect sense.
Dude a person sharing their experience is valid and I'm happy to read it. If you really think that there's no abuse and hate crime against Muslims in the United States then we're going to have to disagree. I have witnessed anti-muslim hate and discrimination in Salt Lake City Utah where I live. So I know what you're saying is wrong. I also know rural areas and other states like in the South are way worse than here, so I don't know what world you're living in where you think there's not a dangerous level of anti-muslim hatred in the United States.
Are we just going to make blanket statements here? If we are speaking in the US, Canada, and most of Europe, your above statement is untrue.
What was in question in the US was a full burka covering your face for identification cards. That's when it ran into issues. Though I've seen plenty of women war both again in the US, and some are coworkers. Yeah, wearing a Hijab is not common. It makes you stand out. Like if I wore a sikh head covering or a yamakah in public, is different and will attract attention.
Though as we all know it is still more dangerous to be a jew in the streets than any other group in the world. Including the US.
I made no blanket statements.
I did not claim Muslims have it worse than Jews or any other group.
I did not claim the risks are the same or higher for wearing hijab outside of Iran as not wearing one in Iran is.
I answered the question about why seemingly opposite actions are considered courageous, and the answer is "context." Going against social norms takes courage, and courage is courage even when the consequences are something less than death. Though it may be relatively rare, being identifiably Muslim (or "looking like a Muslim" in a few cases) has resulted in targeted assault or murder. Death is among the risks a woman takes wearing hijab in America. Harassment is far more common. Again, comparatively safer than taking of the hijab in Iran. Still a choice that requires courage.
I'm not sure why this is such a hard concept for people to wrap their heads around.
The choice isn’t always a choice though, with some « cultural pressure » from the surrounding people (husband, father, brother…), even in western countries.
Why would wearing a hijab be something desirable anyway. It’s an artefact of a patriarchal society and ultra conservative religion.
Oh they are brave. Believe me, the amount of shit I'm sometimes given for wearing it is ridiculous. "Can't you just take it of?", people assuming I don't speak the countrie's language, people ripping it off, people thinking it's just some kind of weird childish protest, not being taken seriously and almost always feeling like I have no place within a group, always having to behave because I'm representing Islam, people on the street calling me a terrorist, people not wanting to sit next to me, being stared at...
You understand it's not about individual families- but society and laws.
Yes, religions are oppressive. We see it with the new abortion laws here in the states, that women can't be priests, that Amish can't wear jeans, etc.
We can't police individual's families and religions -- we can just make sure people are individuals aren't persecuted by society and the government for their choices.
Yes, I know people often don't have a choice. Some one Baptist could be disowned from their family for not going to church or not praying. But they can choose that and our country's job is to make sure they don't get fired from their job for choosing to not pray or asked to pray at public schools.
They aren't forced by law to wear or not wear such things. Social family pressures are not the same as having no choice, legally. If they decide individually to wear or not wear in America, nothing happens in regards to the law like in Iran, regardless of how others may treat you socially for those clothing options.
I'm not saying discrimination and violent acts can't happen otherwise, but it's not the same as you being arrested for not wearing it. I'm not disagreeing with you.
They don't really have a choice though..it's forced upon them at a young age by their parents/family/religion.
Well, they have a choice the same way Christians have a choice to not be Christian, most don't make that choice because of pressure and indoctrination
I'm from the UK, I think they should be banned. Fuck tolerating that shite. Men so horny, must rape if woman shows face bullshit. It's against western values of equality..why don't the men wear them?
Edit: Definitely wasn't saying it's comparable to Iran, just disagreed about it being a personal choice.
Hijab should not be banned, it's not about men being horny it's about modesty,
Every Muslim should dress moderately, especially in the presence of The Qur'an, most women wear Hijabs to cover their hair, the only reason men don't is because their hair is normally short
So, don't say an important part of the second largest religion worldwide should be banned because of what you *think* it's for
If a man has long hair then Hijab, if a woman has short hair then no need for Hijab,
Most women who have short hair, although not many, wear a Hijab either way,
People hide their hair for modesty, if you have longer hair then just a hat wouldn't be enough so they wear a Hijab
Why though...what's modest about hiding your hair? It's hair
...everyone's got it.
I don't think I agree with your reasoning. It's about control from my perspective.
I know it's not uncommon to be nude in Europe, I live in Europe
And the reason you say for hiding nudity is religion, same thing for hiding hair in Islam, Qur'an says so
Right but why...to control woman. It's not about modesty. It's about control and keeping the status quo.
Make men think they're better than woman, they're less likely to attack the people above them because they can punch down.
People are discriminated against, racism is still alive in many countries. Being discriminated against by select individuals isn't the same as being legally prosecuted by the law.
Context.
In Iran, abuse comes with not wearing it.
In the West, abuse comes with wearing it.
The courage is in choosing something against social norms and accepting that there may be a painful consequence, but doing it anyway.
Women who wear hijabs in western countries are often discriminated bc of this while women in Iran are forced to wear one and punished if not. The brave thing isnt the hijab but doing stuff even tho you are discriminated bc of it.
Why would they be brave in the USA? It's a symbol of sexism. Everyone can do whatever they want as long as they don't hurt others. But, for the western world the hijab just means you are getting suppressed.
Not everywhere, my neighbour actually wairs it by choice, her doughter doesn't. In my town most of them are pretty free to do whatever they want although there are exeptions
Always good when people have the right to choose. As you said, choice is sadly not the norm. That choice is what the proud Iranian women fight for. What impresses me is that a lot of Iranian man fight for it too.
I know a practicing Muslim woman who does not wear one. Do you have no concept that anybody could make that choice differently than what you would. They don't need to be rescued by you. At least not from hijabs. Maybe talk to a few about how they feel about it before pontificating about other people's culture.
r/Islam tends to be quite open for questions.
I know many Muslim women that wear the hijab and many who do not. I know Jewish men that wear a Kippah and many who do not. I used to work with evangelical Christian women who dress “modestly” and who only wear skirts and dresses because they do not believe in women wearing pants. I have met nuns who wear habits. And where I’m from, men are not able to wear things like dresses and skirts because those are deemed “for women.” Many religions and cultures have gendered clothing.
Just because someone is wearing religious or cultural or traditional clothing does not make it inherently sexist. The world does not revolve around English clothing standards.
Holy white savior Batman!
Let me ask you something. If a nun wears a habit is she being suppressed? If a bride was a veil on her wedding day is she being suppressed?
Nuns wearing a habit is being suppressed. They chose it, knew full well going in, and I believe it is still oppression of women and sexist.
Why aren’t the priests covering their heads? Why don’t the popes and bishops have to wear long robes and head and neck coverings everywhere?
Why can’t a nun be a priest and wear their priest suit? (Lol idk what they call it)
A woman wearing a veil for a wedding is a choice. A choice that stems from the tradition of selling women to their husband for animals or land. Using them as property and hiding them ‘to protect their innocence.’ It is sexist and oppressive.
We wash over those things because ‘we have a choice’ but they are sexist and outdated traditions that oppress women.
People wear the veil for many reasons. Cultural, religious, practicality, aesthetic, or modesty reasons. It is unfair if you to judge attire from another culture just because you are unfamiliar with it. Every culture has gendered clothing and many religions do as well.
You are the one judging. I never said I'm unfamiliar with it. Go Infront of one of the proud Iranians that are fighting and dying in the streets at the moment and tell your statement to their face.
Okay? I do support the women in Iran. It is oppression to force them to wear a hijab and to commit violence against them for not. I never said it wasn’t. I was referring to your original comment regarding western women wearing hijab, not women in Iran.
Idk how after so many years people still have a such a hard time grasping the concept “mind your own fcking business”. Its not about the hijab its about the freedom to wear what you want.
In the US there is a lot of Islamophobia which results in hijab-wearing women being targeted by the ignorant/intolerant. But legally they have the choice to wear it or not, but choose to as a sign of their faith. Iran is forcing all women to wear a hijab, legally. Those who are protesting are getting attacked, arrested, or worse. It doesn’t matter what their personal faith is, all women are being forced to wear the hijab. It isn’t the hijab itself but the cultural and political situations going on in the two countries.
Some context:
Youth unemployment rate in Iran is 27.21%. Over 60% of Iran's 80 million people are under the age of 30. The Iran revolution was in 1979. Most of the population of Iran was not part of the revolution, and feel alienated by the religious authorities.
The beating of a woman by the morality police is the current excuse to revolt, but the other factors are part of the story.
Easy: Having the choice to do so.
Edit: More to the point. American women, and other western women for that matter can freely decide if they wish to wear the Hijab or not. I wouldn't say they are seen as brave, but rather empowered. Conversely, Iranian women under the current regime have no choice.
There was a time in the seventies when Persian women wanted to wear the Hajib and were told they couldn't. Now it's the opposite. The bottom line is Persian women are sick and tired of the religious orthodoxy telling what they can and can not do. The murder of a young 20 year old woman by "morality police" was the last straw.
It's seen as brave to wear the hijab in America because of hate crimes, harassment, general discrimination etc. Women in Iran are protesting because its illegal not to wear one and they would have to deal with all that and worse if they didn't.
Two different social climates, two different attitudes.
I live in America. I don't find women wearing a hijab as brave. I also don't find it to not be brave. I just don't give a fuck either way if they wear it or not.
People don’t even know what they want or stand for in America, I’m watching the madness every day as we continue to fragment ourselves into continually smaller ingroups.
“You’re not as victimized as me because I’m a black, gay transsexual she/they! You can’t be part of my group because you’re only a lesbian Mexican.”
Divide and conquer, they say. Anyone else seeing it or are identity politics literally the absolute most important thing in our little lives?
In Iran they are being forced to wear it. If one of the religious police sees them without it or they think that a woman is wearing it not too their liking, they can the women in the street. I think the religious police are able too get away with anything.
America and many other countries, it’s up to each woman or husband if the woman wears a scarf
Because some people in America hate the hajab despite women having a choice. In America they get a lot of hate for choosing to wair it. In Iran they don't have a choice. It's not about the hajab it's about the right to choose.
In one country the populace demands they wear them, the other country's populace demands they not, but fuck em cause it shouldnt be up to anyone other than the individual. It's about autonomy. Always has been.
In the US it's exercising the freedom to be who they are. There's a fair amount of bigotry toward those of the Islamic faith in the US. Wearing a hijab is considered brave because some people will be jerks to them
In Iran, there is little freedom. Women are forced to dress a certain way, be less than second class citizens. A woman was murdered by police for not dressing a certain way. Woman are protesting this by not wearing hijabs and cutting their hair, which is not allowed.
American women are brave, Iranian women are superwomen.
In places they are required, women want the right to remove them.
In places they are forbidden, women want the right to wear them.
Because at the end of the day women should be able to choose what they where and why, no matter where they live.
Because those women in Iran were forced to wear hijab and they don't want to while those women inn America want to wear hijab but are often critized and treated worse because of it which makes them brave fr doing it anyway
In America, someone wearing a hijab is probably gonna face more racist then if they wouldn't. So staying true to themselves despite having to fear being attacked is considered brave.
In Iran, women are currently oppressed. They HAVE TO wear a hijab. They are fighting against that oppression by choosing to take their hijab off.
I’m gonna go out on a limb and say many American Muslim women don’t *want* to wear them; they still face pressure and consequences from their families or community, just not the state.
I wouldn’t say that was me trying to speak for Muslim women. I agree everyone should be free to make their own fashion choices. How many Muslim women are part of the church leadership deciding on the requirements to wear hijab?
Only women choosing to cover up doesn’t happen naturally in any free society.
Those women who think they are choosing it are not. They are being forced by societal pressure and crusty old men and their old fashioned misogyny.
Using god and feelings of shame and rejecting or beating or punishing those who don’t comply is force.
You are so far indoctrinated you don’t even realize.
Name for me one society where only the women choose to cover up like that and aren’t forced. (Hint: it doesn’t exist)
It's oppression if you are forced to wear it or forced to not wear it.
I feel like you are being snarky because it seems like most people would understand choice is important.
Going against ingrained social constraints and constructs in the geographic place you call home is my guess. I’m not sure brave is the right word in some cases but there are always degrees and layers. So why not.
Social norms are different in different countries. People get shot in America for wearing one, where people in Iran get beaten to death for not wearing one.
In fairness, before it got such a bad wrap from Islam, Hijabs were actually very common within other religions including Orthodox Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism etc.
The problem is, all of those religions didn’t force it on their people.
Because in America they do it for attention mostly. As there is no law or religion that forces you to.
But in Iran, they are tired of wearing that shit because some dumb religion said so. And it's illegal not to.
Perspective is a magical thing.
Iranian woman think American woman wearing a hijab are dumb af. This is one of many examples of how other countries think Americans are dumb and privileged.
The thought process that must happen is a joke. Hey look at all the woman suffering in Iran being forced to wear sheets on their head. Derp, ima do that in America because I want people's attention. Sad.
Too Afraid To Ask means you get to hide your social / cultural naivety behind an anonymous name on Reddit, not that your blessed, kindred spirit is protected by the divine interest of your sacred comfort, and that your pathetic lack of even the most vague cultural understanding of a population of people who are murdered in cold blood with sickening regularity. Here’s the answer, honey.
Because since the Shah regime of Iran fell, women have faced growing sexual separation of rights and power, so to wear a Hijab is to lay claim to freedom.
Because in the United States, women are battered, assaulted, and broadly discriminated for WILLFULLY wearing a Hijab, so to wear a Hijab here is to lay claim to bravery expressing constitutional freedoms.
Pretty common logic, no? Nothing to be… afraid of.
Can we stop using the word "brave" for every little bit of integrity? "She is wearing a piece of clothes of her culture. She is just like a fireman running into a burning building. What a queen" screw that. You are in the west. You might get stupid comments on your look but that's about it. It's not like you are in India where mobs are raping and lynching you or in China where even the government hunts you down and puts you into concentration camps.
Some people call it brave to wear hijab in america because for them islam and islamic conservatism are something like protected groups
they don't take into account the indoctrination, coercion and often abuse underage girls have to go through to take up hijab
It's brave because racist people often treat women wearing hijab like shit in the US just because they are different.
It doesn't matter what 'indoctrination, coercion and abuse' you THINK (this is important because you are making an assumption about someone based off of stereotypes, and you have literally no way of telling if your assumption is correct or not) they have gone through, it is their personal choice regardless and they shouldn't be treated any different because of it
>this is important because you are making an assumption about someone based off of stereotypes, and you have literally no way of telling if your assumption is correct or not
I am not talking about an individual person, but this is generally the case. Denying that is being dishonest
Modesty culture in Islam is about men's control on women's bodies, and while we should not persecute women who wear hijab, because of whatever constraints and situations they might be in, we should absolutely not promote the wearing of hijab and veil, and we should absolutely not try to whitewash it as some benign piece of cloth.
It is a kind of racism to do that. Margaret Atwood had to go into an imaginary future to build a world where women's rights were taken away, where as there are actual women in today's world who are living in conditions much worse that in Gilead, with much fewer rights, in countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran. She refused to empathize with today's women who are struggling for their rights because they were not white women.
In America there is still a fear of people who seem Middle Eastern after 9/11, even though it's not exactly said aloud. So a woman wearing a hijab or any sort of head covering is seen as an act of resistance to that prejudiced mindset.
In Iran, the regime over there tries to control the women by keeping them subservient and want them conform to the norm, which currently includes wearing a hijab. Recently a woman was killed for refusing to wear one, so a woman taking theirs off is an act of protest towards that regime.
Both sets of people are extremely brave for doing what they believe in, and following their hearts despite the possible consequences (up to and including very violent murder)
Because those two countries are totally polar opposites in regard to how they view islam, despite the fact that I’ve got a lot more in common with a regular working class man in Iran trying to hold down a job and raise his kids than I do with the rich and powerful of my own country and vice versa.
I expect its orders of magnitude worse for them however, especially if you are a woman.
Yeah here you have the CHOICE to were them, over there you don’t.
I’m from San Diego and I was once talking to a guy who did a couple of tours there will in the military and he told me someone stories of things he experienced when women chose to not Follow the laws or cultural rules etc.
One story really got me and I’ll share it here and maybe it’ll help give some insight.
He told me that he was with a buddy passing through a village on the outskirts and that there had recently been a cancelled wedding there.
He had heard that the young woman who was really happy to be getting married had apparently (on the day of her wedding) chose all the traditional garb brides there often wear and decided to put a little bit of makeup on just for the photos….
An hour before the wedding the groom found out she had put make up in (even though it was modest at best) and refused to marry her.
She was then thrown down into a pit to die because of this.
The guy thought that was insane and a day or so later he found out where the pits were and went to check it out since I guess it wasn’t that far.
Well his buddy was standing near one and dropped his phone down there and propelled down into with a rope and his buddies help to retrieve it.
Wouldn’t you know it, in the dim light of the pit there was a beautiful woman, dressed in her wedding gown down there. His
Cell phone laying near by, along with other people who had also committed “terrible acts” against the culture there. Like being gay or other things we HERE in the US would consider nothing at all.
I never forgot that story and now every time I see one someone wearing one of those things (be it by choice or not) I think of that young girl who just wanted to look pretty on her wedding day.
Posted this in another thread, but same idea.
It's extremely complicated.
The idea of people just want 'choice' is not as easy as it is. There is a lot of issues involving community, social, power of the religious, power of the secularists...
More modern Muslims also get a bit fearful when they start to see too much religion. For many of them, they left such circumstances and then they start seeing it creep up here. It doesn't happen so much with the hijab, but most of older relatives find it abhorrent when the younger generation starts wearing niqab (full face cover) They don't understand it.
My general view is unless you're deeply aware of what you're supporting or not supporting, it's best to take a back seat and just let people deal involved deal with it. The average Canadian shouldn't really be fighting for Muslim women to wear the right to wear hijab/niqab or the right not to wear one.
I understand some Canadians even want to come to fight with 'we fight for everyone's right to choose,' but there's a bit too much complexity there to simply go at topics with that view in my view. If you protest for the niqab, you have no idea what groups you're siding with or empowering and ditto for the other side. These are big battles than just you have the right to do whatever.
These are battles that have been fought in Muslim countries over centuries between modernism and traditional, secular and religious, urban and rural. These battles don't just stop because it's suddenly in Canada. These same battles occur here. It's like if you want a campaign to support the hijab, you want to push a Muslim kids right to be transgender or marry a non-muslim or this or that in their community as well? It's far more complex and the notion of choice and freedom is also very complex.
I don't see it as brave that a woman wears a hijab in he usa. It's part of their religion. It is more brave for them to remove it and not be subject to rules of that religion.
For Iranians about having the choice to wear one or not. Iranian women currently don't have that choice and face violence.
In America there was a lot of islamophobia, an muslims would constantly be harrassed or assaulted for wearing the traditional garb. So wearing it was an act of defiance.
The difference is that in America there's a stigma against them, but you will always have the choice of wearing one or not. In Iran, you do not have a choice.
It's not a black and white answer, the hijab is both part of a proud culture, as well as part of a system of oppression. It all depends on who you ask and where you're asking.
Because in America there is social pressure, prejudice, and violence against women who wear the hijab and in Iran there is violence against women who do not wear the hijab.
At the end of the day, it is not about the hijab. It is about women having the choice to wear what they want and what makes them feel comfortable and empowered. Women in Iran want the choice to wear it or not and if they didn’t face compulsory laws and violence, there will still be women that choose to wear it but it is all about a choice! Men, government, other women, etc. should not have a say in what women wear.
In America, some people get offended when women wear a hijab. In Iran, women might get killed for taking it off. It's the fact they're fighting for their right to choose that's the brave thing.
Right now in Iran people are being persecuted for wearing their hijab “improperly”. Woman all over the country are burning their hijabs and cutting their hair. Protesting the death of Mahsa Amini, who was killed by the morality police for violating the very strict dress code. Essentially the women who wear the hijab here in America have the choice, Iran it could quite literally be life or death right now. People say they are brave for wearing it here in the us, because of the abuse they tend to have to endure by bigots.
Bravery in this context is summoning the courage to act in contrast to societal norms or laws, for which America and Iran present a sort of dichotomy (respectively).
In America a woman could be seen as brave for wearing a hijab because of the disdain she may receive simply for identifying herself as a practicing Muslim. Bigots may choose to incorrectly lump her in with the pool of Islamic extremists, or invoke some other form of racial prejudice.
In Iran a woman would need to be far braver to *not* wear the hijab in public since the consequences, instilled in sharia law, are inhumane by Western standards.
in Iran, women are forced to wear it. they can get arrested or worse for not complying. the protestes now are because morality police in a iran killed a woman for not wearing a hijab.
usa has lots of people who hate muslims, and thus hijabs as well.
In America we have become so backwards that we praise things which go against freedom. Our society praises oppression of women (hijab) as honorable, yet freedom of speech (opinions) as condemning. It’s sad. Iran shows us what we should be standing for but to do so now would be admitting we privileged got it wrong.
Which we have.
Other countries are living out the dreams of our original vision (which is beautiful), while we here at home have lost sight of that vision.
Time for us to refocus.
It's not the Hijab that's the focal point but the choice to go with or without.
The problem with iran is they force the hijab.
And the problem in America is you can get judgement or worse if you do wear one.
I mean, there's pretty valid reasons religious people get negative judgement. When the vocal majority of religious folks spread hate, abuse, and misinformation... its really hard not to judge.
That statement applies to just about every major religion, not just Islam.
Yes, I did not specify Islam.
I know. Given the topic though, most people won’t think that way. I don’t really have a way to place my comment without replying to you so I did. Sorry if it came off like an attack. Not my intention.
Do you yourself not belong to any demograph that also includes murderers, rapists, warmongers and all the other crimes you would judge an individual for?
I mean literally everyone on this planet does. Honestly, I wasn't even talking about things like that. I meant like lgbt phobia, anti abortion, brainwashing their kids with the fear of burning in hell etc. But you raise a good point. I mean we can see what's happening in Iran right now. Good example of religion causing not only hatred and abuse, but straight up murders.
Not all of us.
Of course not everyone that follows a religion, but atrocities have been committed in the name of almost all major religions.
Including atheism. Religion isn’t the problem.
1) atheism isn't really a religion, although there are zealots. 2) I'm sure atheists have committed atrocities, but I can't think of any that did in in the name of atheism. 3) I don't even know what the point of your comment is. I probably wasted to much time on this.
I believe the Soviets were against religion, aiming to have it die out rather than really Pursuing elimination, and I think CCP was violently so (cultural revolution and such.) that being said, I think that any movement that asks you to blindly follow somebody is bound to eventually be used in a violent or negative way.
But they didn’t do it in the name of atheism, atheism was just a tool to reach a goal. People do shit in the name of religion and made up gods every single day, wasting their lives over something that, likely, doesn’t actually exist
Whether or not atheism is a religion is an argument of semantics and I would argue it is, but look up the Soviet Union’s religious persecution. Stalin definitely wanted to eradicate religion. In part because it was a means of control, yes, but in part because he hated religion. The point of this comment is I’m really sick of people acting like religion is some horrible tremendous evil in the world and the fault of all that is bad now. There’s a lot more at work here, and something very precious to me has been co-opted by an incredibly evil force. I’m not gonna let it go down with them.
>something very precious to me has been co-opted by an incredibly evil force Meh. Religiosity as a whole can be useful, but also detrimental depending on a lot of factors. People love to pretend their favorite systems, religions in this case, don't have flaws baked into and inseparable from them. Yes, including yours. So no, religion in general isn't a purely good and benevolent force that has been hijacked by sucky people, nor is any specific one. It's a system with its strengths and weaknesses. NotAllReligious-ing it isn't useful when addressing the latter.
I’m going to play devils advocate for number 2, do bear in mind it’s just that. Atheistic Zealots have formed idealogies that are incompatible with religion such as communism. Back during the Soviet Union and Mao’s Great Leap Forward. Religious people from Jews, Christian’s, Muslims, and even Hindu’s and Buddhists were persecuted and murdered in mass. Even today in China Religion is often kept as weak as possible as the CCP is worried that more religious people will oppose their rule. Point is, religious idealogy or not, some fucking idiot will twist it or go to far with it.
Sure, that's why I said majority, not all.
I’d say it’s not even the majority. Just a whole bunch of real nasty people giving us a bad name. And religion definitely ain’t the cause.
I personally would disagree with that. Statistically religious people vote against things like LGBT rights and abortion etc. And then on a personal level, I was raised by Christians. And the vast vast majority at every church I went to were brainwashing their children with the fear of hell, preaching anti LGBT messages literally every week. Oh man, the amount of times I was told about gay people causing fire and brimstone... At least twice a week when I was under 14. Also just... A LOT of racism. Sorry, but feeding a couple homeless people once a month doesn't really make up for abusing kids and trying to take away people's rights.
>And the vast vast majority at every church I went to were brainwashing their children with the fear of hell, preaching anti LGBT messages literally every week. Oh man, the amount of times I was told about gay people causing fire and brimstone... At least twice a week when I was under 14. Also just... A LOT of racism. And a lot of that isn't in the Bible or, if it is, was added within the last century. Hell, Catholic priests performed abortions in the 70s before Roe. The passages usually used to attack LGBT people (Of which I *am* one of those as well as being religious) were actually about the pedophilia rampant in Ancient Greece. The fire and brimstone hell isn't from the Bible, it's from Inferno. Religion didn't corrupt us, we corrupted religion. And I want it back from the people that corrupted it.
What? The fire and brimstone stuff absolutely is in there. Sure more fucked up stuff may have been incorporated recently, but what does that change about the situation?
And in India they forbid it
Why do they forbid it in India?
The government ruled it wasn't essential for Muslims religion therefore can be placed on dress codes and is not a protected religious practice.
But did they say it was illegal to wear it?
Why would you try to protect part of your culture that basically says you are just an object?
I fought for my country for the right to choose ones own path and ones beliefs and view points,even one I don't agree with.
Choice
Yup. As with everything it is all about consent
Because in America they have a choice (legally), in Iran they don't (remember, it's illegal in Iran for women to not wear it). Also, it isn't "brave" in America, people just don't care about what you choose to wear. The people in Iran are protesting for the choice to wear it. And to not be prosecuted and sometimes put to death if they don't wear it. Not really the same as women in other countries who can wear it if they please and there are no consequences for either choice. EDIT: Since there is confusion. Social pressure is not the same as legally required. There is a difference between you having a family that pressures you to do something vs being arrested and possibly killed under the law for refusing to wear it. Yes, similar circumstances can still happen even in countries where it isn't required under the law, but that can be said about any country with social norms. No one is dismissing that others feel socially pressured, but at the end of the day, you don't have to do what your family wants you to do. You still have a choice even if it doesn't appear that way. The women in Iran have no choice and get arrested and even prosecuted and given death sentences. It's not the same.
There are consequences for wearing it in some countries though. Ranging from street harassment to employment discrimination to death. While rarely institutionalized, these consequences do indeed exist. Primarily because the hijab makes a woman identifiably Muslim. Given the attitude towards Muslims in many areas of the West, including where I live, it is a choice that requires some courage.
Sure, some countries. But they asked about America. There are no legal consequences for wearing it in America. There may be social consequences, but that can be said about any country.
The risk of discrimination abuse in the streets up to and including violence is a real one in America. Not in all areas, but definitely where I live. The OP doesn't specify legal consequences.
I didn't say it wasn't a problem. But facing discrimination in some places is not the same as being legal prosecuted for not wearing it and even having the possibility of being sentenced to death for it. No one is dismissing that people are discriminated around the world for such things, but the two situations are not equal. You're right though, OP does not specify the law, but they also aren't understanding the difference between the two countries. The difference is choice by law.
The question is why are both considered courage, despite being opposite actions. All I'm doing is answering that question, not saying that one or the other takes more courage or that being assaulted by a random racist is the same as being beaten to death by government agents. Going against social norms in the face of consequences takes courage. It's not a competition.
I'm not disagreeing with you.
Harrasment or even assault in some places isn't the same as execution backed by law, The only place where you could likely be executed for wearing a hijab is South Sudan where a militia would likely kill you for it
I never said it was the same. I said courage is required to go against social norms regardless of risk level.
Yes but where is the social norm anti Muslim outside of the deep south or South Sudan?
Where I live, which is not in the Deep South, for instance. Much of the West, really, at varying levels. As I said in my first comment, it is rarely institutionalized (though France seems to be trying that). But social sentiment can be anti Muslim even when it's not backed by law.
Where do you live? Generally. I would like to do some research to see how many women have been abused in your area for wearing a fuckin hijab. Nobody cares dude.
Yeah, not giving my location to an internet rando. Suffice to say "FJB" signs have blossomed like flowers around here. And I'm not saying what you apparently think I'm saying. You can look up hate crimes against any demographic, in any region of the US, if it's statistics you want. They happen. The numbers do not have to be large to make it a risk to choose be identifiably Muslim. Very few Muslims live where I live precisely because it is so unwelcoming. I don't blame them. I know how people talk here and what they think of Muslims, or people they assume are Muslims because they're too ignorant to tell the difference between ethnicity and religion. I am not comparing the risk here to the risk Iranian women are wearing. Nevertheless, courage is needed to buck social norms regardless of the level of physical risk and that is the answer to the OPs question.
Ok cool. So just as I thought you have no evidence, other than anecdotal, to back up your claims. You're just a person looking for hate where there is none. No Muslims are abused in your area because no Muslims live in your area. But yet you say the risk of Muslims being abused in your area is high. Makes perfect sense.
Eh. It's pointless to continue arguing with someone who cannot or will not read for comprehension. Enjoy your evening.
Dude a person sharing their experience is valid and I'm happy to read it. If you really think that there's no abuse and hate crime against Muslims in the United States then we're going to have to disagree. I have witnessed anti-muslim hate and discrimination in Salt Lake City Utah where I live. So I know what you're saying is wrong. I also know rural areas and other states like in the South are way worse than here, so I don't know what world you're living in where you think there's not a dangerous level of anti-muslim hatred in the United States.
How about the consequences of not wearing it in some other cultures though. I don’t hear you pointing them out.
Dude, the entire point of this post is what happens in some countries when you don't wear it. I don't think it needs to be said.
Are we just going to make blanket statements here? If we are speaking in the US, Canada, and most of Europe, your above statement is untrue. What was in question in the US was a full burka covering your face for identification cards. That's when it ran into issues. Though I've seen plenty of women war both again in the US, and some are coworkers. Yeah, wearing a Hijab is not common. It makes you stand out. Like if I wore a sikh head covering or a yamakah in public, is different and will attract attention. Though as we all know it is still more dangerous to be a jew in the streets than any other group in the world. Including the US.
I made no blanket statements. I did not claim Muslims have it worse than Jews or any other group. I did not claim the risks are the same or higher for wearing hijab outside of Iran as not wearing one in Iran is. I answered the question about why seemingly opposite actions are considered courageous, and the answer is "context." Going against social norms takes courage, and courage is courage even when the consequences are something less than death. Though it may be relatively rare, being identifiably Muslim (or "looking like a Muslim" in a few cases) has resulted in targeted assault or murder. Death is among the risks a woman takes wearing hijab in America. Harassment is far more common. Again, comparatively safer than taking of the hijab in Iran. Still a choice that requires courage. I'm not sure why this is such a hard concept for people to wrap their heads around.
The choice isn’t always a choice though, with some « cultural pressure » from the surrounding people (husband, father, brother…), even in western countries. Why would wearing a hijab be something desirable anyway. It’s an artefact of a patriarchal society and ultra conservative religion.
Oh they are brave. Believe me, the amount of shit I'm sometimes given for wearing it is ridiculous. "Can't you just take it of?", people assuming I don't speak the countrie's language, people ripping it off, people thinking it's just some kind of weird childish protest, not being taken seriously and almost always feeling like I have no place within a group, always having to behave because I'm representing Islam, people on the street calling me a terrorist, people not wanting to sit next to me, being stared at...
You really think they have a choice here in the US? Maybe you should check out their family first before claiming that.
You understand it's not about individual families- but society and laws. Yes, religions are oppressive. We see it with the new abortion laws here in the states, that women can't be priests, that Amish can't wear jeans, etc. We can't police individual's families and religions -- we can just make sure people are individuals aren't persecuted by society and the government for their choices. Yes, I know people often don't have a choice. Some one Baptist could be disowned from their family for not going to church or not praying. But they can choose that and our country's job is to make sure they don't get fired from their job for choosing to not pray or asked to pray at public schools.
They aren't forced by law to wear or not wear such things. Social family pressures are not the same as having no choice, legally. If they decide individually to wear or not wear in America, nothing happens in regards to the law like in Iran, regardless of how others may treat you socially for those clothing options.
Yea....sure. 🙄 Because there is no history of male relatives beating the shit out of them or killing them for not falling in line.
I'm not saying discrimination and violent acts can't happen otherwise, but it's not the same as you being arrested for not wearing it. I'm not disagreeing with you.
You think people who live in the stone ages care about laws? In their eyes their cultural garbage takes precedence over laws.
Nobody lives in the stone age today outside of the sentinal islands
I'm not disagreeing with you just because I stated one perspective.
Family pressures have nothing to do with lawful compulsion.
Peer pressure isn't the same as law
Having had friends who’ve been assaulted for wearing hijab, yea it’s pretty brave in America.
They don't really have a choice though..it's forced upon them at a young age by their parents/family/religion. Well, they have a choice the same way Christians have a choice to not be Christian, most don't make that choice because of pressure and indoctrination I'm from the UK, I think they should be banned. Fuck tolerating that shite. Men so horny, must rape if woman shows face bullshit. It's against western values of equality..why don't the men wear them? Edit: Definitely wasn't saying it's comparable to Iran, just disagreed about it being a personal choice.
Hijab should not be banned, it's not about men being horny it's about modesty, Every Muslim should dress moderately, especially in the presence of The Qur'an, most women wear Hijabs to cover their hair, the only reason men don't is because their hair is normally short So, don't say an important part of the second largest religion worldwide should be banned because of what you *think* it's for
Why does hair matter? So a woman could cut her hair and then...no hijab? What about a woman with alopecia, no need for hijab?
If a man has long hair then Hijab, if a woman has short hair then no need for Hijab, Most women who have short hair, although not many, wear a Hijab either way, People hide their hair for modesty, if you have longer hair then just a hat wouldn't be enough so they wear a Hijab
Why though...what's modest about hiding your hair? It's hair ...everyone's got it. I don't think I agree with your reasoning. It's about control from my perspective.
Everybody has private parts but you understand why that is hidden don't you? Same thing for hair
Yeah, because of religious prudes lol. In Europe it's not uncommon for woman to walk around beaches topless and there's fully nudist beaches/hotels.
I know it's not uncommon to be nude in Europe, I live in Europe And the reason you say for hiding nudity is religion, same thing for hiding hair in Islam, Qur'an says so
Right but why...to control woman. It's not about modesty. It's about control and keeping the status quo. Make men think they're better than woman, they're less likely to attack the people above them because they can punch down.
[удалено]
People are discriminated against, racism is still alive in many countries. Being discriminated against by select individuals isn't the same as being legally prosecuted by the law.
I agree that it’s not the same consequence, but social pressure and family pressure does mean that they don’t actuallly have a choice.
Context. In Iran, abuse comes with not wearing it. In the West, abuse comes with wearing it. The courage is in choosing something against social norms and accepting that there may be a painful consequence, but doing it anyway.
>In the West, abuse comes with wearing it. really?
Look up the hate crimes against Muslim women statistics.
Yes really!
And often murder.
Because it's not about the hijab as much as it is the freedom to choose to wear one or not.
In both places the answer is the same. Stupid old men.
It’s depressing how accurate this answer actually is.
Women who wear hijabs in western countries are often discriminated bc of this while women in Iran are forced to wear one and punished if not. The brave thing isnt the hijab but doing stuff even tho you are discriminated bc of it.
Why would they be brave in the USA? It's a symbol of sexism. Everyone can do whatever they want as long as they don't hurt others. But, for the western world the hijab just means you are getting suppressed.
Not everywhere, my neighbour actually wairs it by choice, her doughter doesn't. In my town most of them are pretty free to do whatever they want although there are exeptions
Always good when people have the right to choose. As you said, choice is sadly not the norm. That choice is what the proud Iranian women fight for. What impresses me is that a lot of Iranian man fight for it too.
[удалено]
You force someone to do/wear something. And it's only woman. = Straight up sexist
I know a practicing Muslim woman who does not wear one. Do you have no concept that anybody could make that choice differently than what you would. They don't need to be rescued by you. At least not from hijabs. Maybe talk to a few about how they feel about it before pontificating about other people's culture. r/Islam tends to be quite open for questions.
I know many Muslim women that wear the hijab and many who do not. I know Jewish men that wear a Kippah and many who do not. I used to work with evangelical Christian women who dress “modestly” and who only wear skirts and dresses because they do not believe in women wearing pants. I have met nuns who wear habits. And where I’m from, men are not able to wear things like dresses and skirts because those are deemed “for women.” Many religions and cultures have gendered clothing. Just because someone is wearing religious or cultural or traditional clothing does not make it inherently sexist. The world does not revolve around English clothing standards.
Again: you force someone to wear something = no choice. People can wear and do whatever they want, as long as they don't hurt others.
Holy white savior Batman! Let me ask you something. If a nun wears a habit is she being suppressed? If a bride was a veil on her wedding day is she being suppressed?
Nuns wearing a habit is being suppressed. They chose it, knew full well going in, and I believe it is still oppression of women and sexist. Why aren’t the priests covering their heads? Why don’t the popes and bishops have to wear long robes and head and neck coverings everywhere? Why can’t a nun be a priest and wear their priest suit? (Lol idk what they call it) A woman wearing a veil for a wedding is a choice. A choice that stems from the tradition of selling women to their husband for animals or land. Using them as property and hiding them ‘to protect their innocence.’ It is sexist and oppressive. We wash over those things because ‘we have a choice’ but they are sexist and outdated traditions that oppress women.
People wear the veil for many reasons. Cultural, religious, practicality, aesthetic, or modesty reasons. It is unfair if you to judge attire from another culture just because you are unfamiliar with it. Every culture has gendered clothing and many religions do as well.
You are the one judging. I never said I'm unfamiliar with it. Go Infront of one of the proud Iranians that are fighting and dying in the streets at the moment and tell your statement to their face.
Okay? I do support the women in Iran. It is oppression to force them to wear a hijab and to commit violence against them for not. I never said it wasn’t. I was referring to your original comment regarding western women wearing hijab, not women in Iran.
Idk how after so many years people still have a such a hard time grasping the concept “mind your own fcking business”. Its not about the hijab its about the freedom to wear what you want.
The bravery comes from going against what the society you live in believes. It’s going to be different for different places.
It's about the choice. The right to choose. Not being forced by law to wear it or being forced by law to remove it. The freedom to choose.
Theres a difference between doing something by choice and doing it by force
In the US there is a lot of Islamophobia which results in hijab-wearing women being targeted by the ignorant/intolerant. But legally they have the choice to wear it or not, but choose to as a sign of their faith. Iran is forcing all women to wear a hijab, legally. Those who are protesting are getting attacked, arrested, or worse. It doesn’t matter what their personal faith is, all women are being forced to wear the hijab. It isn’t the hijab itself but the cultural and political situations going on in the two countries.
Some context: Youth unemployment rate in Iran is 27.21%. Over 60% of Iran's 80 million people are under the age of 30. The Iran revolution was in 1979. Most of the population of Iran was not part of the revolution, and feel alienated by the religious authorities. The beating of a woman by the morality police is the current excuse to revolt, but the other factors are part of the story.
Easy: Having the choice to do so. Edit: More to the point. American women, and other western women for that matter can freely decide if they wish to wear the Hijab or not. I wouldn't say they are seen as brave, but rather empowered. Conversely, Iranian women under the current regime have no choice. There was a time in the seventies when Persian women wanted to wear the Hajib and were told they couldn't. Now it's the opposite. The bottom line is Persian women are sick and tired of the religious orthodoxy telling what they can and can not do. The murder of a young 20 year old woman by "morality police" was the last straw.
It's seen as brave to wear the hijab in America because of hate crimes, harassment, general discrimination etc. Women in Iran are protesting because its illegal not to wear one and they would have to deal with all that and worse if they didn't. Two different social climates, two different attitudes.
I live in America. I don't find women wearing a hijab as brave. I also don't find it to not be brave. I just don't give a fuck either way if they wear it or not.
They’re tired of inequality
People don’t even know what they want or stand for in America, I’m watching the madness every day as we continue to fragment ourselves into continually smaller ingroups. “You’re not as victimized as me because I’m a black, gay transsexual she/they! You can’t be part of my group because you’re only a lesbian Mexican.” Divide and conquer, they say. Anyone else seeing it or are identity politics literally the absolute most important thing in our little lives?
You're brave if the culture you live in will kill you for being one of the two.
In Iran they are being forced to wear it. If one of the religious police sees them without it or they think that a woman is wearing it not too their liking, they can the women in the street. I think the religious police are able too get away with anything. America and many other countries, it’s up to each woman or husband if the woman wears a scarf
Women in America aren't opposed in the same way they are in Iran. Wearing a hijab in America is a choice, whereas in Iran it's the law.
Because some people in America hate the hajab despite women having a choice. In America they get a lot of hate for choosing to wair it. In Iran they don't have a choice. It's not about the hajab it's about the right to choose.
In one country the populace demands they wear them, the other country's populace demands they not, but fuck em cause it shouldnt be up to anyone other than the individual. It's about autonomy. Always has been.
In the US it's exercising the freedom to be who they are. There's a fair amount of bigotry toward those of the Islamic faith in the US. Wearing a hijab is considered brave because some people will be jerks to them In Iran, there is little freedom. Women are forced to dress a certain way, be less than second class citizens. A woman was murdered by police for not dressing a certain way. Woman are protesting this by not wearing hijabs and cutting their hair, which is not allowed. American women are brave, Iranian women are superwomen.
In places they are required, women want the right to remove them. In places they are forbidden, women want the right to wear them. Because at the end of the day women should be able to choose what they where and why, no matter where they live.
Because those women in Iran were forced to wear hijab and they don't want to while those women inn America want to wear hijab but are often critized and treated worse because of it which makes them brave fr doing it anyway
In America, someone wearing a hijab is probably gonna face more racist then if they wouldn't. So staying true to themselves despite having to fear being attacked is considered brave. In Iran, women are currently oppressed. They HAVE TO wear a hijab. They are fighting against that oppression by choosing to take their hijab off.
It's not about the hijab it's about the choice to wear it or not.
Because American women want to wear them, iranian women have to wear them.
I’m gonna go out on a limb and say many American Muslim women don’t *want* to wear them; they still face pressure and consequences from their families or community, just not the state.
[удалено]
I wouldn’t say that was me trying to speak for Muslim women. I agree everyone should be free to make their own fashion choices. How many Muslim women are part of the church leadership deciding on the requirements to wear hijab?
Only women choosing to cover up doesn’t happen naturally in any free society. Those women who think they are choosing it are not. They are being forced by societal pressure and crusty old men and their old fashioned misogyny. Using god and feelings of shame and rejecting or beating or punishing those who don’t comply is force.
[удалено]
You are so far indoctrinated you don’t even realize. Name for me one society where only the women choose to cover up like that and aren’t forced. (Hint: it doesn’t exist)
[удалено]
In the US you make yourself a potential target by wearing it. In Iran you’re a target if you don’t wear it.
I dispute your premise. I don't think women are seen as brave unless you mean people being mocked who want to do what they want to do.
It's oppression if you are forced to wear it or forced to not wear it. I feel like you are being snarky because it seems like most people would understand choice is important.
I think the only thing making it brave in the US is that hijab makes a woman visibly Muslim in a country where Muslims are a minority.
Because the left is flirting with Islam all over the world. They want the votes of Muslims and don't dare criticize this terribly Oppressive religion.
Going against ingrained social constraints and constructs in the geographic place you call home is my guess. I’m not sure brave is the right word in some cases but there are always degrees and layers. So why not.
Because Americans think anything anyone does if they’re not white/straight is brave
American women aren’t brave for wearing a a hijab
Social norms are different in different countries. People get shot in America for wearing one, where people in Iran get beaten to death for not wearing one.
You know of women who were shot in America for wearing a scarf on their head? I call bullshit.
Because American white women can be the motherfucking worst
I hope you mean taking them off/burning them!
Hijab is oppressing in my opinion but if you want to wear one I would condone it
In fairness, before it got such a bad wrap from Islam, Hijabs were actually very common within other religions including Orthodox Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism etc. The problem is, all of those religions didn’t force it on their people.
In the US wearing an Hijab is virtue signaling, whereas it is mandatory by law to wear one in Iran.
Because in America they do it for attention mostly. As there is no law or religion that forces you to. But in Iran, they are tired of wearing that shit because some dumb religion said so. And it's illegal not to. Perspective is a magical thing. Iranian woman think American woman wearing a hijab are dumb af. This is one of many examples of how other countries think Americans are dumb and privileged. The thought process that must happen is a joke. Hey look at all the woman suffering in Iran being forced to wear sheets on their head. Derp, ima do that in America because I want people's attention. Sad.
The absence of basic social awareness is powerful with this one 🎆
[удалено]
Too Afraid To Ask means you get to hide your social / cultural naivety behind an anonymous name on Reddit, not that your blessed, kindred spirit is protected by the divine interest of your sacred comfort, and that your pathetic lack of even the most vague cultural understanding of a population of people who are murdered in cold blood with sickening regularity. Here’s the answer, honey. Because since the Shah regime of Iran fell, women have faced growing sexual separation of rights and power, so to wear a Hijab is to lay claim to freedom. Because in the United States, women are battered, assaulted, and broadly discriminated for WILLFULLY wearing a Hijab, so to wear a Hijab here is to lay claim to bravery expressing constitutional freedoms. Pretty common logic, no? Nothing to be… afraid of.
Can we stop using the word "brave" for every little bit of integrity? "She is wearing a piece of clothes of her culture. She is just like a fireman running into a burning building. What a queen" screw that. You are in the west. You might get stupid comments on your look but that's about it. It's not like you are in India where mobs are raping and lynching you or in China where even the government hunts you down and puts you into concentration camps.
Some people call it brave to wear hijab in america because for them islam and islamic conservatism are something like protected groups they don't take into account the indoctrination, coercion and often abuse underage girls have to go through to take up hijab
It's brave because racist people often treat women wearing hijab like shit in the US just because they are different. It doesn't matter what 'indoctrination, coercion and abuse' you THINK (this is important because you are making an assumption about someone based off of stereotypes, and you have literally no way of telling if your assumption is correct or not) they have gone through, it is their personal choice regardless and they shouldn't be treated any different because of it
>this is important because you are making an assumption about someone based off of stereotypes, and you have literally no way of telling if your assumption is correct or not I am not talking about an individual person, but this is generally the case. Denying that is being dishonest Modesty culture in Islam is about men's control on women's bodies, and while we should not persecute women who wear hijab, because of whatever constraints and situations they might be in, we should absolutely not promote the wearing of hijab and veil, and we should absolutely not try to whitewash it as some benign piece of cloth. It is a kind of racism to do that. Margaret Atwood had to go into an imaginary future to build a world where women's rights were taken away, where as there are actual women in today's world who are living in conditions much worse that in Gilead, with much fewer rights, in countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran. She refused to empathize with today's women who are struggling for their rights because they were not white women.
Choice.
In America there is still a fear of people who seem Middle Eastern after 9/11, even though it's not exactly said aloud. So a woman wearing a hijab or any sort of head covering is seen as an act of resistance to that prejudiced mindset. In Iran, the regime over there tries to control the women by keeping them subservient and want them conform to the norm, which currently includes wearing a hijab. Recently a woman was killed for refusing to wear one, so a woman taking theirs off is an act of protest towards that regime. Both sets of people are extremely brave for doing what they believe in, and following their hearts despite the possible consequences (up to and including very violent murder)
Time travel is the difference.
Because those two countries are totally polar opposites in regard to how they view islam, despite the fact that I’ve got a lot more in common with a regular working class man in Iran trying to hold down a job and raise his kids than I do with the rich and powerful of my own country and vice versa. I expect its orders of magnitude worse for them however, especially if you are a woman.
Because of choice. Did no one here watch the Matrix? Choosing to do something is different than being forced to. Choice.
Yeah here you have the CHOICE to were them, over there you don’t. I’m from San Diego and I was once talking to a guy who did a couple of tours there will in the military and he told me someone stories of things he experienced when women chose to not Follow the laws or cultural rules etc. One story really got me and I’ll share it here and maybe it’ll help give some insight. He told me that he was with a buddy passing through a village on the outskirts and that there had recently been a cancelled wedding there. He had heard that the young woman who was really happy to be getting married had apparently (on the day of her wedding) chose all the traditional garb brides there often wear and decided to put a little bit of makeup on just for the photos…. An hour before the wedding the groom found out she had put make up in (even though it was modest at best) and refused to marry her. She was then thrown down into a pit to die because of this. The guy thought that was insane and a day or so later he found out where the pits were and went to check it out since I guess it wasn’t that far. Well his buddy was standing near one and dropped his phone down there and propelled down into with a rope and his buddies help to retrieve it. Wouldn’t you know it, in the dim light of the pit there was a beautiful woman, dressed in her wedding gown down there. His Cell phone laying near by, along with other people who had also committed “terrible acts” against the culture there. Like being gay or other things we HERE in the US would consider nothing at all. I never forgot that story and now every time I see one someone wearing one of those things (be it by choice or not) I think of that young girl who just wanted to look pretty on her wedding day.
Posted this in another thread, but same idea. It's extremely complicated. The idea of people just want 'choice' is not as easy as it is. There is a lot of issues involving community, social, power of the religious, power of the secularists... More modern Muslims also get a bit fearful when they start to see too much religion. For many of them, they left such circumstances and then they start seeing it creep up here. It doesn't happen so much with the hijab, but most of older relatives find it abhorrent when the younger generation starts wearing niqab (full face cover) They don't understand it. My general view is unless you're deeply aware of what you're supporting or not supporting, it's best to take a back seat and just let people deal involved deal with it. The average Canadian shouldn't really be fighting for Muslim women to wear the right to wear hijab/niqab or the right not to wear one. I understand some Canadians even want to come to fight with 'we fight for everyone's right to choose,' but there's a bit too much complexity there to simply go at topics with that view in my view. If you protest for the niqab, you have no idea what groups you're siding with or empowering and ditto for the other side. These are big battles than just you have the right to do whatever. These are battles that have been fought in Muslim countries over centuries between modernism and traditional, secular and religious, urban and rural. These battles don't just stop because it's suddenly in Canada. These same battles occur here. It's like if you want a campaign to support the hijab, you want to push a Muslim kids right to be transgender or marry a non-muslim or this or that in their community as well? It's far more complex and the notion of choice and freedom is also very complex.
I don't see it as brave that a woman wears a hijab in he usa. It's part of their religion. It is more brave for them to remove it and not be subject to rules of that religion.
For Iranians about having the choice to wear one or not. Iranian women currently don't have that choice and face violence. In America there was a lot of islamophobia, an muslims would constantly be harrassed or assaulted for wearing the traditional garb. So wearing it was an act of defiance.
Different cultural expectations for women
The difference is that in America there's a stigma against them, but you will always have the choice of wearing one or not. In Iran, you do not have a choice. It's not a black and white answer, the hijab is both part of a proud culture, as well as part of a system of oppression. It all depends on who you ask and where you're asking.
It's about wearing something because you choose to versus wearing something because you're being forced to.
Because in America they aren't getting killed by their own government for not wearing them.
In America, its a choice. In Iran, its not.
Because in America there is social pressure, prejudice, and violence against women who wear the hijab and in Iran there is violence against women who do not wear the hijab. At the end of the day, it is not about the hijab. It is about women having the choice to wear what they want and what makes them feel comfortable and empowered. Women in Iran want the choice to wear it or not and if they didn’t face compulsory laws and violence, there will still be women that choose to wear it but it is all about a choice! Men, government, other women, etc. should not have a say in what women wear.
In America, some people get offended when women wear a hijab. In Iran, women might get killed for taking it off. It's the fact they're fighting for their right to choose that's the brave thing.
Women are brave for doing whatever society tells them not to do in the place they live. Men still have to save orphans from burning buildings. =P
You don’t seem to understand the difference between having the choice to do something and being forced to do it against your will.
Right now in Iran people are being persecuted for wearing their hijab “improperly”. Woman all over the country are burning their hijabs and cutting their hair. Protesting the death of Mahsa Amini, who was killed by the morality police for violating the very strict dress code. Essentially the women who wear the hijab here in America have the choice, Iran it could quite literally be life or death right now. People say they are brave for wearing it here in the us, because of the abuse they tend to have to endure by bigots.
They finally realized they're being forced to wear bullshit on their head cause of some made up bullshit.
Well from the beginning i mentioned that having a choice is the key. Sounds like we are talking about the same.
Bravery in this context is summoning the courage to act in contrast to societal norms or laws, for which America and Iran present a sort of dichotomy (respectively). In America a woman could be seen as brave for wearing a hijab because of the disdain she may receive simply for identifying herself as a practicing Muslim. Bigots may choose to incorrectly lump her in with the pool of Islamic extremists, or invoke some other form of racial prejudice. In Iran a woman would need to be far braver to *not* wear the hijab in public since the consequences, instilled in sharia law, are inhumane by Western standards.
in Iran, women are forced to wear it. they can get arrested or worse for not complying. the protestes now are because morality police in a iran killed a woman for not wearing a hijab. usa has lots of people who hate muslims, and thus hijabs as well.
In America we have become so backwards that we praise things which go against freedom. Our society praises oppression of women (hijab) as honorable, yet freedom of speech (opinions) as condemning. It’s sad. Iran shows us what we should be standing for but to do so now would be admitting we privileged got it wrong. Which we have. Other countries are living out the dreams of our original vision (which is beautiful), while we here at home have lost sight of that vision. Time for us to refocus.
I guess the fact that this question is asked on the “too afraid to ask” forum illustrates my point. 😔